View Full Version : Which is faster? (DA-related)
Which is faster with the same level of accuracy?
Drawing and firing from double - action, or drawing while cocking and firing single-action?
I'm going to test/time this myself but I was just curious if anyone else has timed this before.
Which is faster with the same level of accuracy?
Drawing and firing from double - action, or drawing while cocking and firing single-action?
I'm going to test/time this myself but I was just curious if anyone else has timed this before.
Firing Double action is faster. The problem with the alternative in a stress situation is fine motor can be compromised leading to a negligent discharge.
The single action trigger is what I use when I’m target shooting for accuracy or testing a load from a rest.
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Firing Double action is faster. The problem with the alternative in a stress situation is fine motor can be compromised leading to a negligent discharge.
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I think the "single-action is more likely to result in a ND" issue is a relic from the days of revolvers and un/under trained Police Officers.
I don't think it's any less safe than a 1911/Highpower shooter that draws from condition one.
I'll time myself drawing and firing DA and then drawing and cocking with my support thumb (and firing hand) firing SA. One and two handed.
I'm sure I'm not the first to time this out.
Problem with your suggestion is it isn't how DA/SA pistols were meant to be used, ie drawing and cocking. Meant to be shot DA, then SA afterwards.
Neither are SAO guns - they are meant to be loaded, cocked in the process, with the safety on. Not drawn, finger banged, then fired.
But if you insist on trying this because you are a poor DA shooter, have fun. ;)
Problem with your suggestion is it isn't how DA/SA pistols were meant to be used, ie drawing and cocking. Meant to be shot DA, then SA afterwards.
Neither are SAO guns - they are meant to be loaded, cocked in the process, with the safety on. Not drawn, finger banged, then fired.
But if you insist on trying this because you are a poor DA shooter, have fun. ;)
I grew up shooting DA revolvers and shoot them just fine. But they are slower than a SA trigger. If I can thumb the hammer back as the pistol comes up/out smoothly and consistently it will lead to faster and/or more accurate first shot.
"Meant to"? Pistols aren't "meant to" be used as an impact weapon but it can be done! :)
Maybe you should just transition to SAA revolvers? You'd get really good at thumbing the hammer.
Good luck then.
Which is faster with the same level of accuracy?
Drawing and firing from double - action, or drawing while cocking and firing single-action?
I grew up shooting DA revolvers and shoot them just fine. But they are slower than a SA trigger. If I can thumb the hammer back as the pistol comes up/out smoothly and consistently it will lead to faster and/or more accurate first shot.
Like you, I have a lot of experience shooting DA revolvers. In fact my first bullseye gun was a PPC revolver built on a Model 10 frame. On rapid-fire strings I found I shot better overall using DA rather than thumb-cocking. Other folks agreed, some disagreed, YMMV. I shot some rapid fire 100's (at 25) with the revolver using DA, I shot even more with a 1911. Apples to oranges.
From the holster to the shot is a different matter. You have to compromise your shooting grip to cock the action.
If you are faster and appreciably more accurate thumb cocking a DA/SA auto-pistol from the holster I would suggest you either work on your draw or you DA skills.
Just what I've found over the years.
Firing Double action is faster. The problem with the alternative in a stress situation is fine motor can be compromised leading to a negligent discharge.
That. I carried DA/SA Sigs on duty for 23 out of my 25 year LEO run.
Once you get practiced with, and used to the DA, it’s amazing how quickly you can clear leather and put a round right where you want it to go. Even now days, after not carrying one daily for a few years, I can still surprise myself with how accurate it is first shot DA.
No, it Will never be as fast as a striker fired model with someone equally capable, but it is surprisingly close if you practice. Maybe just a few tenths of a second. It’s all shot placement when you boil down to it.
ramairthree
05-19-18, 15:07
Are you an IDPA shooter?
This is the kind of thing a bunch of old diabetes ridden old fat guys like to wax poetic about between stages of cowering behind cover at slide lock and virtually no movement stages intended not to handicap guys with COPD and gout in their fishing vests.
Just how damn accurate they would be on that first shot if not for the DA pull and how accurate they are all SA bullseye.
With DA/SA semiauto pistols this has been tested into the dirt.
Go to a USPSA March and watch the Production guys win with DA/SA gun’s with no thoughts of that first pull.
Go to training and see what the pros teach with DA/SA guns.
CIF guys were using M9s for a long period in SFARTEC and the line ODAs we’re doing SOT then SFAUC and were not cocking on the draw.
SA semiauto have such a light trigger, a safety is considered necessary when carrying.
Classic DA like a revolver had a heavier, longer trigger and safeties were no considered necessary.
DA/SA grew from a desire to have that DA “safe” margin without having to articulate a safety, but not totally lose aspects of SA trigger advantages.
Even with a safety,
On 19/2011 pistols, and also striker guns with super light triggers, it was not uncommon to see NDs at matches. Typically putting off shots early. Sometimes DQ-able, sometimes not as they claimed a “miss”. They did not really miss, these were high end shooters. They set super light trigger off a touch before they meant to.
Coal Dragger
05-19-18, 17:45
^ what he said.
Anecdotally I’ve found that actually shooting a DA revolver in DA is not a handicap. I don’t even own one, but the once or twice a year I get to see my folks I have a lot fun shooting my dad’s S&W 986 Pro. Lots of fun to shoot, accurate, and has a perfectly serviceable DA trigger. I think I thumb cocked it all of 7 times, and no longer bother, it’s plenty accurate in DA.
Frankly if it were mine, I’d have a really good trigger job and action tune performed with Apex or Power Custom parts running a bobbed hammer. Make it DA only, it’s faster because you can start to roll through the trigger on your press out on the draw. Takes *gasp* practice but even my dumb ass can time it so at full presentation there’s not much trigger movement left before the hammer falls, just enough time to get an acceptable sight picture. Someone who shoots and trains with one consistently will get draw to first round hits just as fast as any other platform.
Defaultmp3
05-19-18, 19:44
Here's the first of a three part series by Ernest Langdon, a DA/SA aficionado, top level competition shooter, retired Marine, and long-time industry guy, about the DA shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY
Are you an IDPA shooter?
This is the kind of thing a bunch of old diabetes ridden old fat guys like to wax poetic about between stages of cowering behind cover at slide lock and virtually no movement stages intended not to handicap guys with COPD and gout in their fishing vests.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You win the internet today.
Not a recolver guy, but i want to establish a perfect grip and then draw. Drawing while cocking (any time ive cocked a revolver ir da/sa gun), resulted an a compromised grip, even though its slight.
Test it for yourself, but i bet da will be faster and more reliable, if you practice da dry fire religiously- as you should.
Keep it mind, its not what gives the best time a few times, its what is consistently fast and accurate, and repeatable.
Are you an IDPA shooter?
This is the kind of thing a bunch of old diabetes ridden old fat guys like to wax poetic about between stages of cowering behind cover at slide lock and virtually no movement stages intended not to handicap guys with COPD and gout in their fishing vests.
Come on now, celebrate diversity. And, those are photographer's vests. Jeez, always with the hate. :jester:
CIF guys were using M9s for a long period in SFARTEC and the line ODAs we’re doing SOT then SFAUC and were not cocking on the draw.
Well, hell no they weren't cocking on the draw, with those heavy Rolex's and Star sapphire rings, it was all they could do to clear nylon. :o
shadowrider
05-19-18, 23:57
Practice with the DA and a timer. It takes a lot of work but you will get to be just a fast, and dare I say it? Maybe even faster. You can finish "tweaking your grip", and aligning your sights while going through the trigger press.
I've recently thought long and hard about my EDC and I'm largely moving away from striker fired guns. I just picked up a H&K P30V3 and likely will get a P30L LEM for my primary specifically because I do like DA revolvers and the trigger press is a lot more similar than a striker fired gun. It'll be better transitioning between the two platforms.
I think the "single-action is more likely to result in a ND" issue is a relic from the days of revolvers and un/under trained Police Officers.
I don't think it's any less safe than a 1911/Highpower shooter that draws from condition one.
I'll time myself drawing and firing DA and then drawing and cocking with my support thumb (and firing hand) firing SA. One and two handed.
I'm sure I'm not the first to time this out.
What you are describing (thumb cocking DA Autos on the draw) is both unsafe and unreliable.
DA autos can shot be plenty fast from DA. It’s a training issue, nothing more. More correctly, training plus people too lazy to put in the work.
Check out Ernest Langdon’s YouTube video series “fear not the Double action shot.”
sidewaysil80
05-20-18, 08:12
Are you an IDPA shooter?
This is the kind of thing a bunch of old diabetes ridden old fat guys like to wax poetic about between stages of cowering behind cover at slide lock and virtually no movement stages intended not to handicap guys with COPD and gout in their fishing vests.
Someone doesn’t like IDPA, never seen anyone get that triggered over it though.
Not a recolver guy, but i want to establish a perfect grip and then draw. Drawing while cocking (any time ive cocked a revolver ir da/sa gun), resulted an a compromised grip, even though its slight.
Test it for yourself, but i bet da will be faster and more reliable, if you practice da dry fire religiously- as you should.
Keep it mind, its not what gives the best time a few times, its what is consistently fast and accurate, and repeatable.
I practiced the idea (no timing) with my Cheetah and this is exactly what I found.
For a smoother, repeatable draw and 1st shot, leave the hammer out of it.
It is NOT unsafe. The gun won't fire unless I press the trigger. It's just slower and creates a "bump" in the draw.
Thanks, guys.
ramairthree
05-20-18, 08:59
Someone doesn’t like IDPA, never seen anyone get that triggered over it though.
It’s not that I don’t like it. I just like exaggerating for humorous effects more.
I will be happy to bust on USPSA’s penchant for walking through and planning courses of fire, changing production optics to carry optics to basically limited with a slide mounted red dot, and evolving Production rules to ensure no production no longer needing to be, well, an actual production gun.
Or how three gun is infatuated with ways to avoid mag changes in pistol and Carbine, but is somehow enamored my as many shotgun reloads as possible.
Or cowboy action shooting’s two digit power factor.
ramairthree
05-20-18, 09:02
Not a recolver guy, but i want to establish a perfect grip and then draw. Drawing while cocking (any time ive cocked a revolver ir da/sa gun), resulted an a compromised grip, even though its slight.
Test it for yourself, but i bet da will be faster and more reliable, if you practice da dry fire religiously- as you should.
Keep it mind, its not what gives the best time a few times, its what is consistently fast and accurate, and repeatable.
I’m all about the grip as well.
Those snap open mag baseplates from beretta or the HK squeeze cocker drive me nuts.
Flipping a safety with your thumb is one thing. A fixed strong hand grip with off hand thumbing a SA revolver is one thing.
But shifting grip on the steong hand is downright disconcerting to me.
sidewaysil80
05-20-18, 11:06
Or cowboy action shooting’s two digit power factor.
THATS what you poke fun at lol, the costumes are like the fishing vest of IDPA x100000 haha
One of the best things about DA is the convenience of dry fire. *click click click click click click click*
When I did some IDPA years ago, I wish I had a dollar for every time I was up and the RO looked me up and down and said, "do you have your weapon?"
Other shooters, too. They'd scan my torso and say, "What are you carrying?" or "where is your pistol?"
It's because I wore what I wore everyday. I didn't dress any different for the competition. Other than I'd avoid wearing my newer clothes because of possible carbon/grease/oil stains.
It seemed I was in the tiny minority of those participating in the "spirit" and "intent" of the original game.
I knew I wasn't going to win when 75% of the shooters were "gaming". About 20% were simply new shooters who didn't have a clue. I always tried to help them out with whatever they wanted to know IF they seemed receptive, asked, or really looked lost.
What I also didn't care for was EVERY target was "two hits to neutralize". Never one, never five. "Two shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be two!"
Also, ALL cover MUST be crowded!
I really stopped going when it became over an hour between stages and I felt like the training scars weren't worth the little extra stress the game added.
I know that every DA/SA firearm that I have used would require compromising grip. Add in a beaver tail, or weird geometry, and now you have issues.
I suppose, in theory, if you thumbed the hammer in the holster, (encountering a threat or something ) you could draw to SA. But that's asking for problems when safeties be a lackin.
If you buy DA/SA to carry spend more time on the DA phase.
My CZ has seen 4-5 times more dry fires in DA than in SA. It can get to be very fast.
We're talking Minute of Man, in most cases within 7 feet, odd cases up to 21 feet.
Your DA pull doesn't have to make 1/2 MOA @100 yards, it needs to make a minute of man hit and transition into a SA pull for those followups.
When I did some IDPA years ago, I wish I had a dollar for every time I was up and the RO looked me up and down and said, "do you have your weapon?"
Other shooters, too. They'd scan my torso and say, "What are you carrying?" or "where is your pistol?"
It's because I wore what I wore everyday. I didn't dress any different for the competition. Other than I'd avoid wearing my newer clothes because of possible carbon/grease/oil stains.
It seemed I was in the tiny minority of those participating in the "spirit" and "intent" of the original game.
I knew I wasn't going to win when 75% of the shooters were "gaming". About 20% were simply knew shooters who didn't have a clue. I always tried to help them out with whatever they wanted to know IF they seemed receptive, asked, or really looked lost.
What I also didn't care for was EVERY target was "two hits to neutralize". Never one, never five. "Two shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be two!"
Also, ALL cover MUST be crowded!
I really stopped going when it became over an hour between stages and I felt like the training scars weren't worth the little extra stress the game added.
Yeah, the fishing vests are the gamer-est things ever. I sometimes get the “is that your cover garment” question on a stage start, because I wear normal people clothes.
Some of my local matches kick off a stage with a Bill Drill, FAST Drill, or Mozambique Drill on the first target.
THATS what you poke fun at lol, the costumes are like the fishing vest of IDPA x100000 haha
Why all the hate for folks shooting? The more people who shoot, regardless of reasons, or venue, the more folks we have to protect gun rights. Even if they are just playing golf with guns.
I know see a lot of husband and wife teams shooting Cowboy Action and GSSF around my neck of the woods. That is a good thing in my view.
Why all the hate for folks shooting? .
No hate. Just teasing, ribbing, and complaining about how IDPA is run.
ramairthree
05-21-18, 14:50
Why all the hate for folks shooting? The more people who shoot, regardless of reasons, or venue, the more folks we have to protect gun rights. Even if they are just playing golf with guns.
I know see a lot of husband and wife teams shooting Cowboy Action and GSSF around my neck of the woods. That is a good thing in my view.
Who said anything about hate.
There is no greater entertainment between guys than the most brutal left handed compliment or savage piss taking.
Assuming you’re a guy.
Who said anything about hate.
There is no greater entertainment between guys than the most brutal left handed compliment or savage piss taking.
Assuming you’re a guy.
Now that 'assuming your a guy' was some savage piss talking! :cool:
I was upbraided by a guy at a swim meet for using the word 'f@ck' in a conversation with him. I said, 'Sorry, I thought, well, you know, you were a guy, you know.' Whooee! After that was all over we ended up eating lunch together.
No, it Will never be as fast as a striker fired model with someone equally capable, but it is surprisingly close if you practice. Maybe just a few tenths of a second. It’s all shot placement when you boil down to it.
Respectfully, I don't buy that. USPSA production division is dominated by DA/SA guns. If what you said is true, then everyone in the sport would be running Glocks and M&Ps.
Speaking only for myself, I can match my drill PRs with a CZ that I've only been shooting one month after spending a decade behind Glocks exclusively and making GM with a G34.
The gun just flat doesn't matter from a performance perspective.
This question is literally like asking what's faster on the quarter mile, a Mustang or a Corvette, but the Corvette has to put on his seatbelt and check his mirrors and take it out of park before he can start driving.
It will never EVER be faster to manually cock the hammer on the draw.
It's absurd.
Learn to draw the gun, grip the sh-t out of it, and run the DA trigger straight back. It's one pull.
The only time i could think cocking the hammer would be faster is on a long range target, like 100 yards or more. Even then staging the DA pull might be faster.
The only time i could think cocking the hammer would be faster is on a long range target, like 100 yards or more. Even then staging the DA pull might be faster.
It is not, and let me tell you why.
The draw does not slow down based on target difficulty. Let me say again. The drawstroke should never slow down because the target is more difficult.
Now, here's the nuance and clarification: Obviously it takes longer to hit a farther target than a closer one. The time difference is in cleaning up the sights at the very end of the draw and pressing the trigger more carefully. Precision takes longer than imprecision in sight alignment and trigger control. But the mechanical act of removing the gun from the holster and getting it to extension should be the same whether you are shooting at a 5 yard target or a 100 yard target.
Because that's the case, interrupting the drawstroke to manually cock the hammer is going to cost a minimum of a second, probably closer to two seconds if your gun handling is slow to begin with. How many times can you pull the trigger in two seconds? A lot.
You'd be better off just firing the first round off in the general direction of the target to get to the SA mode! It would be tenths faster to rack out the first round to cock the hammer. That should be illustrative of the silliness in this concept. So again, learn the DA first pull. Don't cheat yourself by brainstorming cheap and ineffective workarounds.
wtturn - two very good posts there.
So much logic in this thread its gotta make some peoples heads hurt. :)
I was thinking more along the lines of pure academic... 1 round and it needs to hit. In that case i would cock the hammer with my off hand when already pushing out the weapon. But like I said, staging the DA shot would probably still be faster.
In a real life scenario I would never cock the hammer for the reasons listed. But if we are talking about pure speed, hell just crank a round into the dirt on the draw stroke and you have SA when you get on target.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5185
https://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot
I think it a good thing to not contemplate throwing a shot with any weapon.
I'm the OP.
Good discussion and good links.
To be clear, I did test this idea out with dry fire. I don't need to time it out at the range. It's obviously a little slower to much slower and makes it more difficult to be consistent.
It's best to just use the double action. If the first shot is distant and a must-hit I might use an extra moment to stage the DA trigger before letting the bullet go.
And... there are plenty of folks who can hit accurately at distance in DA as fast as anyone with a striker gun can - just like the DA revolver guys had to back in the day.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc
[QUOTE=m4brian;2628704]And... there are plenty of folks who can hit accurately at distance in DA as fast as anyone with a striker gun can - just like the DA revolver guys had to back in the day.
When I started in LE we had revolvers. Firearms instructor courses and some agencies had 50 yard stages on their quals. Most allowed SA at 50 yards, but I always shot them DA.
A good DA shooter doesn't stage the trigger, even at 50 yards, maybe slow the rearward travel, but not stage. There is a difference.
That is one of the first things a coach/instructor would look at when working with a revolver shooter - does the hammer come smoothly to the rear until it breaks forward.
[QUOTE=m4brian;2628704]
A good DA shooter doesn't stage the trigger, even at 50 yards, maybe slow the rearward travel, but not stage. There is a difference.
That is one of the first things a coach/instructor would look at when working with a revolver shooter - does the hammer come smoothly to the rear until it breaks forward.
Hmm. I'll work on that. (I don't know how the quote messed up)
[QUOTE=26 Inf;2628712]
Hmm. I'll work on that. (I don't know how the quote messed up)
To add to this, maybe im odd, but if i peg the trigger, my shots have a different poi than if i reset under recoil, which i now do 100% of the time. 5yds or 100yds- my trigger pull and reset is the same, the only difference is sight picture quality.
This is with a glock, not sure if it translates to da/sa or not.
Edit, same quite issue here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc
No matter the shooting discipline, they are all infinitely better than what 99% of gun owners in America do- go to the range every 6 months and slow fire while standing still in a lane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m42IJIreRoc
^^^I pay attention to what this guy has to say on the subject of DA/SA. ^^^
Also no range session with, or discussion about DA/SA guns is complete without this:
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/TDA-Dot-Torture-target.pdf
Any one else get a nose bleed trying to understand that?
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Any one else get a nose bleed trying to understand that?
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I thut tit wuz jus mi.
Satire/levity with some truth nuggets?
OR
52255
I looked at the time :cool:
I caught the general jist (is that a word) and was nodding as I read it.
Why didn't you say that in the first place?
I was a few dark and stormies deep on that one. I was going for what you described.
Just a few???
Lol, I got it.
With average service / carry DA guns it is generally slightly slower than SA or striker. Best to best might not differ but on average and by the distribution just a touch slower. Not by a lot and certainly not enough to ever consider thumb cocking.
With a current crop of competition-geared DA/SA guns there is no draw time difference but those guns have DA pulls same or lighter than of stock Glocks, and they weigh twice as much. In general, I don't think that discussing merits or limitations of DA/SA on examples of Tanfoglios or Shadows translates that much, if at all, on USPs, P30s or 229s.
Then there is a newer generation of DA/SA guns that try to bridge form and weight of service guns with trigger qualities of game guns. CZC and Cajun CZs, polymer and alloy, Wilson and LTT Berettas. Depending on the sample, those might be just as fast on a first shot as anything else, although I find that most improvement in those guns is in already good SA pull while DA could vary.
Another pro tip/reason for DA/SA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2fzgxyD1KA
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