View Full Version : A reminder. Know your zero or don't carry it
A couple days ago my wife and I were approached by a Meth Zombie in a parking lot. (There was no action, just verbal)
Saw him way off, but figured we could make it to the car and be moving before he got to us. If not, we'd just go back towards the store until he passed. Well, once we were committed to getting to the car and he was between us and the store, he altered course for us.
As expected he started with the, " hey, man, can you..." to which I kept moving towards the car, but responded verbally, loudly, and aggressively. This normally works, and did that day, too. They don't expect it.
He was about 30 yds away, his hands (watch'em!) Were constantly running all over his tshirt and pants as Meth Zombie do. Now I realize a Meth Zombie isn't likely to have a gun because he's going to sell it for meth. Unless he just got it. And they will likely have a knife or screw driver as a burglary tool/weapon.
He ended up getting within about 10 yards before deciding it would be safer to go towards other vehicles and resume trying door handles looking for money, valuables, or brains. (And he did) I did not draw, but was obviously prepared to go hands on. (He was taller than me, but underweight) No! I did not want to go hands on with a drug fiend.
Now about that zero. I got a steal on a Glock 27 and put a G32 .357 Glock barrel in it because I enjoy shooting it more than .40. I discovered it shot very high with the stock G27 sights. (About 14 inches high at 25 yds.) So I put my choice of Ameriglo's on it including a taller front sight. It ended up being too tall but I was prepared for that. It shot about 10 inches low at 25 yds. I milled down the front sight and it should be shooting at or close to where I want it now.
But is it? I've been carrying it for about two weeks but haven't got to shoot and verify where it's shooting. I didn't worry about it because I got complacent. Most SD scenarios are at very close range, right? Sure. But some arent. Sometimes it's a Meth head or other robber who pulled a gun on you from 30 yds away in an open area with no immediate cover to seek. Or that person on a killing spree in a store 50 yds from you (or more) and you have a clean shot from cover.
Anyway, in that moment I did not have confidence I could place bullets just where I wanted to beyond about 10 yds. I was comfortable with my skill level, but not my equipment. (I always practice from 1-25 yds and sometimes take it out to 50m.) I wished I had my Cheetah with me and left the Glock home until I'd verified the sights. My "backstop" was not very good. I'd be shooting a little upward and behind him the land drops down for several hundred yards. There was a road (very sparse traffic) about 75 yds behind him and another shopping center a couple hundred yards behind that. Really didn't want to miss.
If he had drawn a weapon I already knew I'd draw and move left while firing. It would make me harder to hit should he have a gun and put me further from my wife. (Who would have starting drawing her own gun) But the backstop would not really be any better nor was cover close.
A big help was just being in yellow and spotting the guy whIle he was about 75 yds away. That gave my OODA loop a big head start.
I just wanted to remind folks the importance of accuracy and knowing your pistol zero and bullet trajectory within the range you may ever use it. And of course practice.
Good post. Thanks for sharing. Sadly many ccw carriers I have seen think shooting a dessert plate size group at 7 yards is plenty good enough. They also very wrongly assume guns are zeroed at the factory- the current spate of off center Glock sights proves that.
This is a timely thread. I just picked up my M&P 2.0 9mm compact from my FFL and have not shot it yet. It is going to take the place of my G19. However, that isnt going to happen until I can get to the range, verify zero and ring it out a bit. I know more than a few people who would just throw a new weapon into a holster and start carrying that day. Not smart!!
This is a timely thread. I just picked up my M&P 2.0 9mm compact from my FFL and have not shot it yet. It is going to take the place of my G19. However, that isnt going to happen until I can get to the range, verify zero and ring it out a bit. I know more than a few people who would just throw a new weapon into a holster and start carrying that day. Not smart!!
I made that mistake about 20 years ago. Carried a new Taurus revolver for a week or two. (A new DA 445 .45) Hadn't fired it yet. I did dry fire it, even though Taurus said not to. Seemed fine.
I get to the range and discover the cylinder would bind and sieze up at a point in its rotation. Depending where it was I'd get zero shots or up to three.
It revolved fine when not loaded.
So I don't care if it's new, new to me, and everything looks fine. I won't carry or rely on any gun until I verify it works. Not even a stash gun at the house.
Doc Safari
05-24-18, 09:09
On a subject related to knowing your zero, I can add "know your gun."
Your scenario is exactly why I stopped collecting a little of everything and decided to stick to one or two guns.
Once you get the hang of what you carry and stick to it, your confidence goes up and your muscle memory becomes your greatest asset.
In other words, don't carry a 1911 sometimes, a Glock sometimes, an M & P Shield sometimes, a Beretta M9 sometimes, etc.
Good post. Thanks for sharing. Sadly many ccw carriers I have seen think shooting a dessert plate size group at 7 yards is plenty good enough.
Well, it's certainly more than enough for most of the bell curve. It should never be where the journey ends though. Dessert-plates (~B8 ish) accuracy is quite a feat for a massive amount of the gun toting population, and that's calm on a square range. Hits on a dessert plate, or even an A and -0 zone at fighting speed are a tall order even for many armed professionals.
You’re absolutely right about ensuring zero. Particularly when changing brands or loads of ammo.
I notice this with regards to bullet drop or rise when changing ammunition.
My Trijicon RMR indicates that my 147 grain ammo is 1.5 inches lower than 115 grain ammo at just 10 yards.
With the Smith 500 or 454 Casull changing bullet grain weight can change my point of impact significant at 50 yards and 100 yards. Hence it’s important to have a red dot or adjustable sights.
If someone has fixed sights, one has to determine whether a center or combat hold or a 6:00 hold is necessary since there is no way to account for drops apart from getting a different height on the front sight.
As for your experience, apart from meth they may have Hepatitis C or HIV so a close contact confrontation is something to avoid.
I’m lucky It is not rampant in my city. When I walk around I have three firearms on me, and my hand is always resting on the revolver in my pocket when I am out and about. Sidestepping to the left is more important than stepping backwards to get out of line from an attacker, Particularly for a right handed gun wielding assailant (as most people miss low and to the left - your right side).
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Doc Safari
05-24-18, 10:23
As for your experience, apart from meth they may have Hepatitis C or HIV so a close contact confrontation is something to avoid.
Excellent point. Remember not to shoot somebody at a close enough range that the "red mist" gets all over you. Never personally witnessed it myself, but LEO friends of mine have cautioned me about it over the years. Always thought it was an Old Wives' tale but too many have talked about it for me not to make a mental note of it.
As for your experience, apart from meth they may have Hepatitis C or HIV so a close contact confrontation is something to avoid.
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I didn't think about that at the time but wasn't sure how to avoid. That's certainly something we'd want to articulate to a grand jury should it ever go that far.
It's hard (legally) to use deadly force unless your a female, disabled, outnumbered, etc. Without ending up deep in the "legal system".
But no, I really didn't want to go hands on. (Or even feet) Or shoot an empty-handed assailant.
I am picky about POA/POI.
Even with fixed sight carry guns (yes, I have adjustable RS's on some and none have broken/lost zero) I will shoot from bench at 25 yds. and if impact is not directly on top of FS (or dead center of Tritium dot), I order a replacement of the proper height.
Here's a sight height "calculator"/tutorial. https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/
Additionally I prefer a lot of daylight between front and rear blade- and don't care for the standard .125"+- FS's that are usually used.
I run a .090" to .100" width FS's with standard RS. I order these from Dawson or mill an existing if necessary.
Tritium are the exception. With the size/diameter of tritium vial being the limiting factor.
I've found it's possible to end up with around .110" to .115" width with the Tritium FS's, but haven't found anyone willing to do this due to liability concerns.
I'd add I'm in complete agreement with Doc G. A hodgepodge of carry gun systems is a bad plan.
My carry guns, being a dinosaur, are 1911's or P-35/BHP's.
Exception being a Kahr PM9 for deep conceal, due to light, DAO style trigger- I shot a lot of "K"/"L" frames in PPC/NRA Action Pistol at one time. That transition is seamless for me.
I discovered it shot very high with the stock G27 sights. (About 14 inches high at 25 yds.) So I put my choice of Ameriglo's on it including a taller front sight. It ended up being too tall but I was prepared for that. It shot about 10 inches low at 25 yds. I milled down the front sight and it should be shooting at or close to where I want it now.
This is the scariest part to me. A difference of that much is easily capable of missing your target in a social setting. Is that much variation normal for barrel/caliber changes? It seems extreme to me.
Good reminder. The biggest thing is knowing the capability of the gun in your hands. What size target needs to be available to ensure a hit? Is the threat sideways? Just a headshot available? Whats beyond the threat?
Ive carried guns without checking zero- but i understood that a 25yd shot would be risky. 10yds I was not worried about it, but definately checked zero first opportunity.
As for your experience, apart from meth they may have Hepatitis C or HIV so a close contact confrontation is something to avoid.
Sidestepping to the left is more important than stepping backwards to get out of line from an attacker.
Particularly for a right handed gun wielding assailant (as most people miss low and to the left - your right side).
I can think of all kinds of reasons to move left, as an example, it is more difficult for a right handed shooter to track you if you move to the left.
DEspite that, the most important thing is to just move, get off the threat axis. You will not have time to determine what hand the weapon is in and move accordingly. I believe it was Jeff Cooper who advised against falling prey to the 'paralysis or analysis.' Don't do that get moving.
Additionally the fight happens where the fight happens, not in that nice environment we imagine in our mind. What happens if there is a wall to your left, or busy traffic?
The important thing is move. Move fast and move far, not just a side step or two. Practice sidestepping left and right, practice driving in at an angle left and right (driving in at an angle is my suggested default) even practice backing out - although that is usually not the best option.
I'm left handed so I always walk with anyone I'm with to my right, which works well because the less evolved members of society (everyone but me LOL) are right handed. I'm by nature set up to move left.
As a right handed person, if you make the choice to walk to the left of your companion, you run the risk of them grabbing an arm if startled, or bumping your arm during the draw stroke. So I'd buck normal convention and walk on my partner's right side.
In this situation, moving left cuts you across your partners line of sight. I'd avoid that. Upon initial contact your response should be to move away from your partner - the assailant will normally focus on movement, you are creating distance between you and your partner and clearing lanes of fire. Discuss these things with those with whom you work and/or associate.
When the time comes the most important thing is to move, get off the bullseye. If you want rules: 1) move as drawing, don't draw and move; 2) move away from those in close proximity.
If you don't agree with my logic on this, that is fine, supply your own, but know why you are doing what you are doing and share that info with those who need the info.
As a trainer I long ago realized that I could talk all I wanted about SA and that really had no bearing on what condition the guy was in when the shit hit the fan. Most often things happen because the person is on auto-pilot - just walking into the store from there car, or approaching a vehicle to issue a speeding citation - not thinking about anything in particular. I came to conclusion that the best thing I could do to ensure their survival under those circumstances was to instill the movement response.
I hesitate to say instinctively move, because it is not instinct, but damn, in case you haven't been listening MOVE AGGRESSIVELY.
BTW - I would advise against making a shoot decision based on the probabilities of your assailant having an infectious disease.
Great tips.
I did briefly consider drawing (RH, he approached to my 4 o'clock) but for those who are new, what do you do when you've drawn and one apparently unarmed person comes at you? Yea, that's a bad situation.
A gun is not our only weapon or solution. I'm also a big proponent of moving. Rule #1 for me isn't to have a gun, it's to not get shot. (Or stabbed)
But back on the gun. I think it's very important to practice drawing one handed from concealment. We see that a lot in evidence videos from around the world. That could really save you.
As for what level of accuracy is desired by me; it's putting rounds into a group the size of a heart or brain. About 4 inches. But per the point of the thread, it's not just the size of the group, but precisely it's center.
I never thought to do this until I RMR’d a G19. It was when I zeroed my RMR and tried to get it the same as the irons that I said hey, somethings off here. Took that lesson learned home to my iron sight only Glocks and went to see what the zero was there. Amazingly, once figuring that out, my B8 bulls eye scores started sky rocketing. Imagine that.
Coal Dragger
05-24-18, 17:35
Thanks OP, this further validates my insistence on shooting my carry gun (VP9) out to 50 yards every range trip, and making sure it is zeroed.
I don’t care if I get strange looks from all the old guys shooting off the bench rests on the rifle range while I shoot a 9mm pistol standing up at 50 yards.
If you're shooting someone - and an unarmed someone at that - from 50 yards, expect to see a courtroom. And I would wager that the likelihood of marksman meth heads shooting people from 90 feet away (as mentioned by the OP) is on par with getting struck by lightning after winning the lottery on February 29.
Yes, you need to know your guns, and especially their POI relative to POA for a given ammunition. Yes, you need to have your wits about you. But you also need to have a reality check with regard to the actual degree of risk. Castle doctrine doesn't apply on a public street. It is legal for people to approach you on the street. Depending on the location, it may even be legal to panhandle for money. Whipping out a sidearm because someone dirty approaches you is asking for trouble. If you can't articulate a risk to your safety beyond "meth zombie", steel shouldn't be clearing leather.
My $0.02
pubb - that was worth at least a dime.
If you're shooting someone - and an unarmed someone at that - from 50 yards, expect to see a courtroom. And I would wager that the likelihood of marksman meth heads shooting people from 90 feet away (as mentioned by the OP) is on par with getting struck by lightning after winning the lottery on February 29.
Yes, you need to know your guns, and especially their POI relative to POA for a given ammunition. Yes, you need to have your wits about you. But you also need to have a reality check with regard to the actual degree of risk. Castle doctrine doesn't apply on a public street. It is legal for people to approach you on the street. Depending on the location, it may even be legal to panhandle for money. Whipping out a sidearm because someone dirty approaches you is asking for trouble. If you can't articulate a risk to your safety beyond "meth zombie", steel shouldn't be clearing leather.
My $0.02
And this is why my finger tips get crossed and put in front of my sternum and moved outwards if the approach continues (interview) every time someone enters my "red zone".
I have literally dropped a bag of groceries when I was approached by a panhandler to get into interview. That part is overlooked, A lot. I can't even recall all the situations my buddies and I have been approached, and those knuckleheads keep their hands in their pockets, or their phones are filling them.
After growing up scrappy and a bigger guy getting targeted for fights, Interview was one of the best things I learned as an adult.
I remember an old training film that narrated 'many times what you have in your hands can make a difference' as an officer on a traffic stop threw his ticket book into the face of someone turning on him with a weapon. Cheesy, but it made sense.
The grocery thing, they may have been a good distraction device - if needed. The guy closes the gap with seemingly nefarious intent - shove them into his face while you move to a position of advantage.
Often one of the thing that folks with evil in mind relish seeing is us visibly react or get hyper to their presence or actions. Sometimes those obvious preps can accelerate the situation, sometimes they may shut it down, but by the same token a more subtle response usually accomplish the same deescalation.
That doesn't mean don't prepare, don't be ready, rather try to impart, 'Hey this ain't my first rodeo, I'm cool if your cool, and I'm ready if you ain't.'
Worked for me.
Good thread with a lot of good information, some stuff I have just plain forgot over the years (like moving left). Also, do not forget to vet new magazines for your carry gun. For some reason I had a couple Glock mags jam when brand new, but after running several full loads through them they straightened right up and now run like a top.
Excellent point. Remember not to shoot somebody at a close enough range that the "red mist" gets all over you. Never personally witnessed it myself, but LEO friends of mine have cautioned me about it over the years. Always thought it was an Old Wives' tale but too many have talked about it for me not to make a mental note of it.
You can see that occur in this incident:
https://youtu.be/JcBru3HFX_E
Richmond VA PD officer shoots a naked man high on PCP. Unless things have changed the duty gun is a SIG PRO in .357 SIG. Note the taser failure and the fatally wounded suspect still ambulatory despite the fatal wounds.
Good story, thanks for sharing.
I had a similar incident almost 20 years ago. I had to park further down the street downtown one night when I was dating my wife. No one was out that far down so we were walking alone and a homeless guy crosses the street and starts yelling at us for money. He kept getting closer and closer and my now wife was getting scared. I finally had enough when he got within 10 yards (I had been telling him to go away already). I finally turned sharply put my left hand out in a stop position and pulled my coat back with my right and grabbed the handle of my 1911. At that point I was yelling for him to leave us alone. He finally got the hint, threw his hands up and turned around and left. I stayed put watching until he was gone.
Up until that point she always thought I was crazy for carrying a gun. She had leaned in and asked if I was carrying as he was crossing the street that night, funny how fear can change a mind...lol Since she has never said a negative word about it, even when I've had to turn around and go back because I walked out in a hurry and left it. I also started being more deliberate about carrying since that event too.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-18, 16:41
Good post. Thanks for sharing. Sadly many ccw carriers I have seen think shooting a dessert plate size group at 7 yards is plenty good enough. They also very wrongly assume guns are zeroed at the factory- the current spate of off center Glock sights proves that.
Well, it's certainly more than enough for most of the bell curve. It should never be where the journey ends though. Dessert-plates (~B8 ish) accuracy is quite a feat for a massive amount of the gun toting population, and that's calm on a square range. Hits on a dessert plate, or even an A and -0 zone at fighting speed are a tall order even for many armed professionals.
We haven't made fun of NYPD lately, but look at their shot and hit ratios historically. Go to an indoor range and watch where people put shots at 7 yards. Ugh, if the plate is your standard. When we go out at night for dinner, I make sure to bring my SureFire EDCL2-T and have it in hand on the walk on the way home. 1200 lumens of F-off, plus don't need to pull the gun to use the weapon light. My teenage son carries my old 600 lumen version. Helps to get him thinking about blind spots and general SA.
A 1000 lumen flashlight / strobe is pretty useful during the day as well, when pointed at the eyes.
On a subject related to knowing your zero, I can add "know your gun."
Your scenario is exactly why I stopped collecting a little of everything and decided to stick to one or two guns.
Once you get the hang of what you carry and stick to it, your confidence goes up and your muscle memory becomes your greatest asset.
In other words, don't carry a 1911 sometimes, a Glock sometimes, an M & P Shield sometimes, a Beretta M9 sometimes, etc.
I'm with you on this one. With guns and holsters. Keep it simple.
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You can see that occur in this incident:
https://youtu.be/JcBru3HFX_E
Richmond VA PD officer shoots a naked man high on PCP. Unless things have changed the duty gun is a SIG PRO in .357 SIG. Note the taser failure and the fatally wounded suspect still ambulatory despite the fatal wounds.
Thanks for the video. Hadn't seen it.
Imagine your not an Officer on duty and this guy comes at ya. Most people who do carry a gun don't have a Taser or OC too.
Your options are to run (he was a fit guy on PCP, will catch you), go H2H, (He's a fit guy on PCP, your chances of winning against someone who feels no pain are very low unless your very trained and very fit.) Or, you shoot him.
Now you just shot an "unarmed" man, who is perhaps a different skin color than you. And probably no camera's to tell the story. Good luck in court in a few months/over the years, spending 10's of thousands of dollars, and your spending the night or weekend in jail.
We gotta try to hard to stay out of these incidents completely.
The evidence would be on your side. A naked man in broad daylight in front of lots of witnesses says a lot without you saying a word. The tox screen will likely come back positive, and in all likelihood, the person will have a rap sheet of drug arrests, petty crimes or mental health calls. Even if the person is absolutely clean (eg this is the perps first psychotic episode), he is still buck naked on a freeway. There is clearly something going on, and I would have a hard time believing officers would arrest you immediately or that a prosecutor would push the case.
I would suggest that in that situation, it would be wise if you follow Massad Ayoob's advice ("officer that man attacked me, I will sign the complaint. I will make a statement after I speak with my counsel"). There is a YouTube video to that effect, but I am on mobile and can not locate it now.
hotrodder636
05-29-18, 11:58
Thanks for that link on sight height.
I am picky about POA/POI.
Even with fixed sight carry guns (yes, I have adjustable RS's on some and none have broken/lost zero) I will shoot from bench at 25 yds. and if impact is not directly on top of FS (or dead center of Tritium dot), I order a replacement of the proper height.
Here's a sight height "calculator"/tutorial. https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/
Additionally I prefer a lot of daylight between front and rear blade- and don't care for the standard .125"+- FS's that are usually used.
I run a .090" to .100" width FS's with standard RS. I order these from Dawson or mill an existing if necessary.
Tritium are the exception. With the size/diameter of tritium vial being the limiting factor.
I've found it's possible to end up with around .110" to .115" width with the Tritium FS's, but haven't found anyone willing to do this due to liability concerns.
I'd add I'm in complete agreement with Doc G. A hodgepodge of carry gun systems is a bad plan.
My carry guns, being a dinosaur, are 1911's or P-35/BHP's.
Exception being a Kahr PM9 for deep conceal, due to light, DAO style trigger- I shot a lot of "K"/"L" frames in PPC/NRA Action Pistol at one time. That transition is seamless for me.
I didn’t have three firearms on me in Mahmudiyah, Iraq when we were moving to contact! Where do you live?
I remember an old training film that narrated 'many times what you have in your hands can make a difference' as an officer on a traffic stop threw his ticket book into the face of someone turning on him with a weapon. Cheesy, but it made sense.
The grocery thing, they may have been a good distraction device - if needed. The guy closes the gap with seemingly nefarious intent - shove them into his face while you move to a position of advantage.
Often one of the thing that folks with evil in mind relish seeing is us visibly react or get hyper to their presence or actions. Sometimes those obvious preps can accelerate the situation, sometimes they may shut it down, but by the same token a more subtle response usually accomplish the same deescalation.
That doesn't mean don't prepare, don't be ready, rather try to impart, 'Hey this ain't my first rodeo, I'm cool if your cool, and I'm ready if you ain't.'
Worked for me.
Great piece of rhetoric, creates a lot of food for thought.
Shows there is far more paths to livelihood than what meets the eye when it comes down to training/mentality.
I very much agreed with Larry Vickers when I attended his 1911 operator course- he uses the b-8 bullseye for most shooting. He stated realistically whatever your group is on a square range double or triple it under stress. Which makes that plate sized good enough group 14+ inches, and add the dynamic of someone say bladed to you sideways now many of the shots in that groups are complete misses
Mr. Goodtimes
05-29-18, 19:51
Good story, thanks for sharing.
I had a similar incident almost 20 years ago. I had to park further down the street downtown one night when I was dating my wife. No one was out that far down so we were walking alone and a homeless guy crosses the street and starts yelling at us for money. He kept getting closer and closer and my now wife was getting scared. I finally had enough when he got within 10 yards (I had been telling him to go away already). I finally turned sharply put my left hand out in a stop position and pulled my coat back with my right and grabbed the handle of my 1911. At that point I was yelling for him to leave us alone. He finally got the hint, threw his hands up and turned around and left. I stayed put watching until he was gone.
Up until that point she always thought I was crazy for carrying a gun. She had leaned in and asked if I was carrying as he was crossing the street that night, funny how fear can change a mind...lol Since she has never said a negative word about it, even when I've had to turn around and go back because I walked out in a hurry and left it. I also started being more deliberate about carrying since that event too.
It was the mighty .45 acp. So much stopping power he stopped as soon as he saw it. Probably wouldn’t have happened had you been carrying a 9mm.
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