Impending South African Genocide?

[gaijin]

Nelson Mandela's legacy.
(Victors write history. Mandela's a Saint.)
Certainly haven't/won't see anything regarding this in MSM- until it becomes all out war and a bloodbath that can no longer be kept from us.

Seems it has never been popular to support the folks that BUILT SA. I remember the late 70's when the Cuban Communists were stirring up trouble, orchestrating an over-through of the government.
At that time the world, including the US, had an embargo on the country. From memory, Israel was one of their few supporters.
I have always admired the Boers tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
Like Israel, all of their neighbors would prefer to see them exterminated.

May the ANC rot in Hell. As well as the MSM.

https://youtu.be/FT3CLYhrCyA

[Hmac]

I think the blatant and unapolgetic racism that built South Africa is more likely what engendered the world’s disdain for the country. That’s also where the attempt at comparison to Israel falls down. I’m trying to see the difference between Suidlanders and your average skinhead white nationalist militia...


.

[RetroRevolver77]

I think the blatant and unapolgetic racism that built South Africa is more likely what engendered the world’s disdain for the country. That’s also where the attempt at comparison to Israel falls down. I’m trying to see the difference between Suidlanders and your average skinhead white nationalist militia...


.


Ironic, because the same thing is happening in all other European countries- targeted genocide of European decedents.

[Hmac]

Ironic, because the same thing is happening in all other European countries- targeted genocide of European decedents.

Yes. I'm aware that there are people that think that way.

[RetroRevolver77]

Yes. I'm aware that there are people that think that way.

So you don't think that is happening in Europe? You think the farmers being targeted in South Africa deserve what is coming to them? If so why? Once European civilization falls- so does all of Western Civilization.

[Business_Casual]

I think the blatant and unapolgetic racism that built South Africa is more likely what engendered the world’s disdain for the country. That’s also where the attempt at comparison to Israel falls down. I’m trying to see the difference between Suidlanders and your average skinhead white nationalist militia...


.

I don’t think you know much about South African history.

[LMT Shooter]

[B]
Ironic, because the same thing is happening in all other European countries- targeted genocide of European decedents.

Did you mean "descendants," or is this a reference that I don't get?

[LMT Shooter]

I don’t think you know much about South African history.

I don't know much about it, and I'm inclined to believe that what I've learned came from biased sources. Would you please elaborate or provide links to unbiased sources?

[RetroRevolver77]

[B]

Did you mean "descendants," or is this a reference that I don't get?


Yes, that's what I meant.

[RazorBurn]

I don't know much about it, and I'm inclined to believe that what I've learned came from biased sources. Would you please elaborate or provide links to unbiased sources?

You would be well served to visit the thread I've linked below, look at the facts, and then report back.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204784-African-Racism


I have always admired the Boers tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
Like Israel, all of their neighbors would prefer to see them exterminated.

May the ANC rot in Hell. As well as the MSM.

https://youtu.be/FT3CLYhrCyA

Yep, blatant open racism extolled by the ANC, and supported by the inaction of the MSM to report on what really is happening in the world today. They sweep it under the rug because it does not fit their agenda. Because hey who cares if whitey is about to get his, he deserves it right? If it were white people openly extolling the elimination of black people and the forced removal of them from their property there would be no end to the coverage. The double standard is effin' sickening!

[Averageman]

You forgot to mention the United Nations.
They were key in the geo political squeeze.

[gaijin]

You would be well served to visit the thread I've linked below, look at the facts, and then report back.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204784-African-Racism



Yep, blatant open racism extolled by the ANC, and supported by the inaction of the MSM to report on what really is happening in the world today. They sweep it under the rug because it does not fit their agenda. Because hey who cares if whitey is about to get his, he deserves it right? If it were white people openly extolling the elimination of black people and the forced removal of them from their property there would be no end to the coverage. The double standard is effin' sickening!

Precisely.

Not a fan of Genocide and Communism irregardless of color.

[Business_Casual]

I don't know much about it, and I'm inclined to believe that what I've learned came from biased sources. Would you please elaborate or provide links to unbiased sources?

Short version:

Dutch arrive to find open, empty areas. They proceed to “settle” those areas - to wit turn them from unused to valuable farms, vineyards and mines (later factories and cities). African generation after generation. People from the north and west areas surrounding them arrive centuries later, seeking refuge from the brutal, desolate life in the bush where there was no wheel in use nor even a two-story building. In short order, the vast productivity of the Boer led to an explosion in non-white populations (there are several ethnicities) and this led to attempts to separate makers from takers, however misguidedly people on the outside found their system. Communists leveraged and stoked the resentments of the, now much larger, non-white population and eventually seized power. After which they immediately installed race-based quotas for everything in direct contravention of their stated reason for needing to ursurp power.

[LMT Shooter]

You would be well served to visit the thread I've linked below, look at the facts, and then report back.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204784-African-Racism


I re-read the thread, I thought you were talking about the history of the first European settlers that later founded SA, and such.

[flenna]

Short version:

Dutch arrive to find open, empty areas. They proceed to “settle” those areas - to wit turn them from unused to valuable farms, vineyards and mines (later factories and cities). African generation after generation. People from the north and west areas surrounding them arrive centuries later, seeking refuge from the brutal, desolate life in the bush where there was no wheel in use nor even a two-story building. In short order, the vast productivity of the Boer led to an explosion in non-white populations (there are several ethnicities) and this led to attempts to separate makers from takers, however misguidedly people on the outside found their system. Communists leveraged and stoked the resentments of the, now much larger, non-white population and eventually seized power. After which they immediately installed race-based quotas for everything in direct contravention of their stated reason for needing to ursurp power.

Good summary. Almost sounds like most successful, capitalist free country. Including ours....

[pinzgauer]

Short version:

Dutch arrive to find open, empty areas. They proceed to “settle” those areas - to wit turn them from unused to valuable farms, vineyards and mines (later factories and cities). African generation after generation. People from the north and west areas surrounding them arrive centuries later, seeking refuge from the brutal, desolate life in the bush where there was no wheel in use nor even a two-story building. In short order, the vast productivity of the Boer led to an explosion in non-white populations (there are several ethnicities) and this led to attempts to separate makers from takers, however misguidedly people on the outside found their system. Communists leveraged and stoked the resentments of the, now much larger, non-white population and eventually seized power. After which they immediately installed race-based quotas for everything in direct contravention of their stated reason for needing to ursurp power.Kindof leaves out the xhosa, but still largely accurate.

The current majority Bantu/Zulu migrations into SA happened well into modern history. And saw a big influx when various cattle/drought waves hit equatorial Africa. (Tetse fly, etc)

There was a reason the true inigenous populations allied themselves with the boers... The Zulu/Bantu were wiping them out.

None of this excuses apharteid, but the history of settlement of SA is far more complicated than most realize.

And is not as simple as white bad, black good (Or even indigenous).

It won't matter, as SA cacausions have been tried in the court of public opinion, with very slanted facts. Everyone thinks they know the facts, bad racists deserve their fate.

So I expect them to follow Rhodesia's path into the prosperous paradise of Zimbabwe.

The wild cards are the diamond & gold mines... When the new dictator tries to nationalize them I expect major shooting.

[Campbell]

Kindof leaves out the xhosa, but still largely accurate.

The current majority Bantu/Zulu migrations into SA happened well into modern history. And saw a big influx when various cattle/drought waves hit equatorial Africa. (Tetse fly, etc)

There was a reason the true inigenous populations allied themselves with the boers... The Zulu/Bantu were wiping them out.

None of this excuses apharteid, but the history of settlement of SA is far more complicated than most realize.

And is not as simple as white bad, black good (Or even indigenous).

It won't matter, as SA cacausions have been tried in the court of public opinion, with very slanted facts. Everyone thinks they know the facts, bad racists deserve their fate.

So I expect them to follow Rhodesia's path into the prosperous paradise of Zimbabwe.

The wild cards are the diamond & gold mines... When the new dictator tries to nationalize them I expect major shooting.

Your last paragraph....exactly. People just think it’s ugly now, the fat lady is warming up her cords.

[Slater]

Israel and South Africa have reportedly cooperated in the past. The South African R4 rifle is derived from the Galil (IIRC) and rumors/scuttlebutt had some joint efforts on nuclear weapons design between the two in the 1980's (although that's largely unsubstantiated).

The two nations shared a similar strategic circumstance, with small minority populations surrounded by potentially hostile majorities.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I think the blatant and unapolgetic racism that built South Africa is more likely what engendered the world’s disdain for the country.
.

That's what the left says about America.

[MegademiC]

That's what the left says about America.

... which is interesting. Based on sequence if events, i believe racism (the at the time largely accepted culture, not isolated instances) was the result of slavery, not the cause.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Based on sequence if events, i believe racism was the result of slavery, not the cause.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6IJV_0p64s

[Averageman]

I thought this might need an update;
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/south-africa-begins-seizing-whiteowned-farms/news-story/8937f899bd3f131bfc4ffb648ea5c53b
While the government says it intends to pay, owners Akkerland Boerdery wanted 200 million rand ($18.7 million) for the land — they’re being offered just 20 million rand ($1.87 million).
“Notice is hereby given that a terrain inspection will be held on the farms on April 5, 2018 at 10am in order to conduct an audit of the assets and a handover of the farm’s keys to the state,” a letter sent to the owners earlier this year said.
Akkerland Boerdery obtained an urgent injunction to prevent eviction until a court had ruled on the issue, but the Department of Rural Development and Land Affairs is opposing the application.
“What makes the Akkerland case unique is that they apparently were not given the opportunity to first dispute the claim in court, as the law requires,” AgriSA union spokeswoman Annelize Crosby told the paper.

Some of these People have been farming this land longer that the United States has been a colony.\

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6078157/White-farmers-try-offload-land-South-Africa-seized.html
White farmers in South Africa are trying to flog their land as fears grow that the government is about to start a widespread campaign of seizures.
Union bosses say a record number of properties are for sale but nobody is buying, making the properties effectively worthless.
Agri SA union, which represents mainly white commercial farmers, has warned that such seizures will deter investment, cause job losses, and may rob South Africa of the ability to feed itself.
Meanwhile two farms in the north of the country have reportedly become the first targets for seizures after talks between the government and owners about buying the land broke down.

https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/bill-dagostino/2018/08/20/media-silent-south-africa-seizes-land-white-farmers
It appears that the expropriations are meant to serve as retroactive punishment for apartheid. A spokesman for the ANC – the party in power in South Africa – has admitted as much, asserting that the seizures were “tied to addressing injustices of the past.”
News of these seizures broke in Western media on the morning of August 20, giving networks more than enough time to fit the story into their evening broadcasts. However, none bothered to mention the scandal.

[Circle_10]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_bDc7FfItk

[lowprone]

I would welcome white S. African's immigrating to the USA !

[Averageman]

I would welcome white S. African's immigrating to the USA !

Apparently so would the Russians,
http://www.americanfreedomunion.com/russia-to-welcome-15000-white-south-african-refugees/
What’s more, Russia won’t even have to pay for the Boers, since they’re bringing their own money. These people are unlikely to burn cars or sit on welfare. They do belong to a weird little Protestant sect but we all have our minor failings.

Being a White South African farmer is the single most dangerous profession in the world these days. The murder rate is around 300/100,000 per year (~150 killed out of a population of ~50,000). This makes it about 4x as dangerous as living in the world’s most murderous country (El Salvador) and 3x as dangerous as living in the world’s most murderous major city (Caracas). Many of the murders are horrific and drawn out, involving the use of torture. In the veldt at nighttime, nobody hears your screams.

[jpmuscle]

We should run guns there


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[Circle_10]

We should run guns there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If something really does pop off in a big way down there like that Suidlanders civil defense organization seems to think, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of "volunteers" from the US and Europe heading to SA to support the Afrikaaners, much like how foreign volunteers showed up in the Balkan wars and were embedded with the Peshmerga forces fighting ISIS.

[Averageman]

I think that ship has sailed.
It might better be used as a reason to offer the farmers asylum and use this as a canary in a coal mine for our own country.

[flenna]

The evil, white European colonists must pay reparations for settling in SA and turning a wasteland into a productive, modern country. So to do so the government is going to seize their property and turn the country back into a wasteland.

[SomeOtherGuy]

The evil, white European colonists must pay reparations for settling in SA and turning a wasteland into a productive, modern country. So to do so the government is going to seize their property and turn the country back into a wasteland.

Nailed it.

For those coming late to the discussion, the vast majority of the people ruling South Africa are descendants of tribes that had no presence in the European-settled areas at the time that Europeans settled there. Most South Africans are descendants of people who are later migrants/invaders, AFTER the European settlement was there and established. Many of the European-settled areas were unpopulated when settled, and the ones that were, were home to entirely different tribes that are now tiny minorities in South Africa.

[Averageman]

The increase in black populations in that area are due to the food those farms and Farmers produced.
They're believing the lies of communists and thinking that the seeds magically plant and harvest themselves. The immense amount of time, money, experience and labor is never explained to urban youth who commit these crimes.
If this succeeds it will spread.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

The increase in black populations in that area are due to the food those farms and Farmers produced.
They're believing the lies of communists and thinking that the seeds magically plant and harvest themselves. The immense amount of time, money, experience and labor is never explained to urban youth who commit these crimes.
If this succeeds it will spread.


Not just hard work and time each year. To get these farms running smoothly and producing at peak it can take years. Once these idiots realize they actually needed people that knew how to farm it's going to be to late.

[SomeOtherGuy]

The increase in black populations in that area are due to the food those farms and Farmers produced.

While this is true, the useful idiots don't blink at discounting such fundamental and essential factors. However, telling them truthfully that the people seeking to seize the farms have NO HISTORICAL CLAIM WHATSOEVER may do better at getting through their denseness.

[Averageman]

Nobody would ever try that here....
http://humanevents.com/2006/07/27/the-emreconquistaem-movement-mexicos-plan-for-the-american-southwest/
The Reconquista Movement Takes Hold

At its core, the claim of the Reconquista (“Reconquest”) movement is that the United States stole large sections of the southwestern United States from Mexico in the 1800s. Mexicans and other Hispanics making these claims seek to reconquer this territory by taking the land away from the United States and returning it to Mexico. The goal of the Reconquista is to “reconquer” these “lost” or “stolen” territories for “La Raza”—the race indigenous to Mexico.

How will the Reconquista be accomplished? Today, millions of Mexican illegal immigrants are pouring into the United States. None of these illegal aliens are checked in any way. They live in the United States while swearing their allegiance to Mexico. By their sheer presence and numbers, those in the Reconquista movement believe that a time will come when they can take political control of local communities where Hispanics are the majority. The ultimate dream of the Reconquista movement is that political control can be gained in one or more southwestern states. Reconquista activists plan that the states controlled by Mexican immigrants would secede from the United States and join Mexico, much as the southern states seceded during the American Civil War and formed the Confederacy.

[flenna]

Not just hard work and time each year. To get these farms running smoothly and producing at peak it can take years. Once these idiots realize they actually needed people that knew how to farm it's going to be to late.

In 10 years SA will be another Somalia if it keeps going in the same direction.

[docsherm]

In 10 years SA will be another Somalia if it keeps going in the same direction.

That is the Africa way.......

[jpmuscle]

Well Atleast it will give the folks at UNGA something to talk about....maybe


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[Honu]

Nobody would ever try that here....
http://humanevents.com/2006/07/27/the-emreconquistaem-movement-mexicos-plan-for-the-american-southwest/
The Reconquista Movement Takes Hold

At its core, the claim of the Reconquista (“Reconquest”) movement is that the United States stole large sections of the southwestern United States from Mexico in the 1800s. Mexicans and other Hispanics making these claims seek to reconquer this territory by taking the land away from the United States and returning it to Mexico. The goal of the Reconquista is to “reconquer” these “lost” or “stolen” territories for “La Raza”—the race indigenous to Mexico.

How will the Reconquista be accomplished? Today, millions of Mexican illegal immigrants are pouring into the United States. None of these illegal aliens are checked in any way. They live in the United States while swearing their allegiance to Mexico. By their sheer presence and numbers, those in the Reconquista movement believe that a time will come when they can take political control of local communities where Hispanics are the majority. The ultimate dream of the Reconquista movement is that political control can be gained in one or more southwestern states. Reconquista activists plan that the states controlled by Mexican immigrants would secede from the United States and join Mexico, much as the southern states seceded during the American Civil War and formed the Confederacy.

whats funny is the Spanish are not native :) the true natives the Mayan the Aztecs etc.. are second class citizens and still enslaved and looked down on etc.. by the Spanish that conquered Central America
also ironic they had way more slaves than North America ever did but why do you not see huge populations of blacks ? OH they got rid of them all when they were done with them


not all are like that of course just like not all trump supporters are racist but the press likes to spin things for gain of socialism communism anything to get rid of our freedoms
and like the US we came we took over good or bad its just how things were so cant cry about history ? but the reality that the US is bad but all other nations are good with taking over is kinda funny to me :) and the fact we are horrid bad racist people for what we did yet in todays so called enlightened society the killing and taking over by the left is OK but yeah we are the nazis hahahahahahah

[Averageman]

Another interesting Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp7lJ_6T1VQ
Showing the use of cell phone jamming devices and implicating government and local police support.

[NWPilgrim]

Rhodesia —> Zimbabwe all over again. Starts off white genocide but this is really political so anyone of any color that isn’t on board with the SA regime will get necklaced/disappeared/property confiscated as well.

Mandela was a commie and his wife a terrorist. What more could we expect from this bunch. I am amazed any white farmers stuck around for so many years after the ANC grabbed control.


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[RetroRevolver77]

Rhodesia —> Zimbabwe all over again. Starts off white genocide but this is really political so anyone of any color that isn’t on board with the SA regime will get necklaced/disappeared/property confiscated as well.

Mandela was a commie and his wife a terrorist. What more could we expect from this bunch. I am amazed any white farmers stuck around for so many years after the ANC grabbed control.


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We'll see how the same situation plays out once Europeans become the minority here within the next decade or so. It's sad to think that Russia and Eastern Europe will end up being the last native European dominated countries in just a few decades. Projections are that native Europeans populations will fall to less than a single digit globally within forty years and likely extinct within a century. Almost like it was all by design.

[MountainRaven]

We'll see how the same situation plays out once Europeans become the minority here within the next decade or so. It's sad to think that Russia and Eastern Europe will end up being the last native European dominated countries in just a few decades. Projections are that native Europeans populations will fall to less than a single digit globally within forty years and likely extinct within a century. Almost like it was all by design.

To what end?

Or, as the Romans would say, "Cui bono?"

[RetroRevolver77]

To what end?

Or, as the Romans would say, "Cui bono?"


Rome served as a historical guide to what happens when you allow unlimited immigration.

[Moose-Knuckle]

There are dozens of good social media pages out of South Africa that are reporting what is going on, for now at least they are not like the UK and Germany who shutdown such pages and imprison the admins. Lot of Indian immigrants in SA are getting their businesses torched and the owners butchered as well the White farmers. It's open season on Black SA police as well. SA is quickly devolving into a failed state, no surprise.



Apparently so would the Russians,
http://www.americanfreedomunion.com/russia-to-welcome-15000-white-south-african-refugees/
What’s more, Russia won’t even have to pay for the Boers, since they’re bringing their own money. These people are unlikely to burn cars or sit on welfare. They do belong to a weird little Protestant sect but we all have our minor failings.

Being a White South African farmer is the single most dangerous profession in the world these days. The murder rate is around 300/100,000 per year (~150 killed out of a population of ~50,000). This makes it about 4x as dangerous as living in the world’s most murderous country (El Salvador) and 3x as dangerous as living in the world’s most murderous major city (Caracas). Many of the murders are horrific and drawn out, involving the use of torture. In the veldt at nighttime, nobody hears your screams.

As has the Aussies . . .

Tony Abbott backs Peter Dutton's call for visas for white South African farmers
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/mar/19/tony-abbott-backs-peter-duttons-call-for-visas-for-white-south-african-farmers






Another interesting Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp7lJ_6T1VQ
Showing the use of cell phone jamming devices and implicating government and local police support.


I posted that pic in one of the other threads on the subject matter:

Armed raiders caught on CCTV security footage just prior to an attack on a farm. The 02 thief with the back pack is sporting a cell phone jammer with a 500 meter range.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/801/27050497598_fe8d4fa0a3_b.jpg

[Honu]

Armed raiders caught on CCTV security footage just prior to an attack on a farm. The 02 thief with the back pack is sporting a cell phone jammer with a 500 meter range.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/801/27050497598_fe8d4fa0a3_b.jpg

NO its just some poor folks who are doing this no gov involvement no tech gear ever used etc..


like some dirt poor guy has one of those in his back pack !


sadly its to late and Europe is just about to late to turn the corner and the direction is they wont and sadly I am feeling our country is following in its footsteps

a bit like being on a long over pass with dividers on each side watching a semi coming the wrong way

[RetroRevolver77]

NO its just some poor folks who are doing this no gov involvement no tech gear ever used etc..


like some dirt poor guy has one of those in his back pack !


sadly its to late and Europe is just about to late to turn the corner and the direction is they wont and sadly I am feeling our country is following in its footsteps

a bit like being on a long over pass with dividers on each side watching a semi coming the wrong way


We can always take over Canada.

[SteyrAUG]

We can always take over Canada.

Can't we just send all the immigrants there instead?

[OH58D]

Let the indigenous population of South Africa take it all. Within one generation it will all be screwed up and in ruins. When the Whites are gone, they can start killing each other off in tribal conflict. In the meantime, we could use some productive agricultural/ranching types who are willing to work, already know our language (within reason) and would assimilate well here in the United States. Maybe it's time we started being more selective as to who we let in?

[The_War_Wagon]

Impending South African Genocide?

Silly honky - whitey CAN'T be genocided, just as blacks CAN'T be racist! Haven't you learned ANYTHING from Sharpton, Jackson, et.al.?! :rolleyes:

[SomeOtherGuy]

Let the indigenous population of South Africa take it all.

Did I mention that the pre-1600 indigenous population of South Africa is largely gone, and that the people pushing whites off the land today have a weaker historical claim to the land than the Boers do?

This isn't even some dubious "8 generations ago my ancestors..." type claim, this is 100% complete BS.

Otherwise I agree. I work with a number of South African expats and the ones I know have impressed me with high abilities in all relevant areas. Of course I may just be seeing that because so many want to leave that only the >95th percentile are able to do so. Whatever the case, the US could certainly take in the white South Africans who are fleeing their genocide.

[Honu]

Silly honky - whitey CAN'T be genocided, just as blacks CAN'T be racist! Haven't you learned ANYTHING from Sharpton, Jackson, et.al.?! :rolleyes:

yeah as sharpton says


R E S P I C T

[Honu]

since Vikings landed on North America in the past I guess we need to now flex that muscle as this was ours before think the world would back us :)

[parishioner]

Silly honky - whitey CAN'T be genocided, just as blacks CAN'T be racist! Haven't you learned ANYTHING from Sharpton, Jackson, et.al.?! :rolleyes:

To quote Andrew Sullivan from his excellent commentary on the NYT/Sarah Jeong BS:


Racism against whites, in this neo-Marxist view, just “isn’t a thing” — just as misandry literally cannot exist at all. And this is because, in this paradigm, racism has nothing to do with a person’s willingness to pre-judge people by the color of their skin, or to make broad, ugly generalizations about whole groups of people, based on hoary stereotypes.

Rather, racism is entirely institutional and systemic, a function of power, and therefore it can only be expressed by the powerful — i.e., primarily white, straight men.

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/amp/2018/08/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-anti-white-racism.html

[Moose-Knuckle]

To quote Andrew Sullivan from his excellent commentary on the NYT/Sarah Jeong BS:


Racism against whites, in this neo-Marxist view, just “isn’t a thing” — just as misandry literally cannot exist at all. And this is because, in this paradigm, racism has nothing to do with a person’s willingness to pre-judge people by the color of their skin, or to make broad, ugly generalizations about whole groups of people, based on hoary stereotypes.

Rather, racism is entirely institutional and systemic, a function of power, and therefore it can only be expressed by the powerful — i.e., primarily white, straight men.

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/amp/2018/08/sarah-jeong-new-york-times-anti-white-racism.html

Cultural Marxism 101 . . .

[AndyLate]

If I was a South African landowner (regardless of color), I would take what the goverent offers and get out of the country. It won't be long until 2 things happen:

1. The South African government will see just how much capitol is bleeding from their country and make it all but impossible to move assets out.
2. All private land will be seized for distribution to "the people".

Andy

[Rogue556]

Apparently now the POTUS has asked the Secretary of State to look into the issue in South Africa.

Of course that has caused the MSM to go insane and now they all seem to be claiming it's a conspiracy theory and Trump is only using it as a diversion..

I wonder where this will go.

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[Business_Casual]

Each farmer feeds 3,000 people. What will happen when the farmers have been driven out or killed?

[docsherm]

Can't we just send all the immigrants there instead?

No, they don't want them........

[docsherm]

Each farmer feeds 3,000 people. What will happen when the farmers have been driven out or killed?

They will starve like the rest of that shit hole continent and the WFP will come in and create yet another welfare state in the God forsaken place.

[RazorBurn]

They will starve like the rest of that shit hole continent and the WFP will come in and create yet another welfare state in the God forsaken place.

Isn't that the truth, and it will be coming to our continent sooner than later. ;) Western Europe is next.

[SomeOtherGuy]

If I was a South African landowner (regardless of color), I would take what the goverent offers and get out of the country. It won't be long until 2 things happen:

1. The South African government will see just how much capitol is bleeding from their country and make it all but impossible to move assets out.
2. All private land will be seized for distribution to "the people".
Andy

Yes, leftist idiots always "double down" as you can see in Venezuela today, or in Zimbabwe 10 years ago. Whatever the rhetoric used in a given time and place, it always distills to "gibs me dat."

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

It’s only fair, they stole those highly productive farms from the natives when they got there.....

[Circle_10]

I'm not an expert on South African history, but as far as I understand it, the black ethnic majority in South Africa today are themselves descended from groups that invaded the region from the north and displaced or absorbed the *actual* indigenous population.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I'm not an expert on South African history, but as far as I understand it, the black ethnic majority in South Africa today are themselves descended from groups that invaded the region from the north and displaced or absorbed the *actual* indigenous population.

Generally correct, and you can verify this with any number of "reputable" mainstream history sources. The extent of it not being correct is that many places settled by the Europeans had ZERO native population, or occasional visits from nomads who ranged over a large area. Those nomads have been largely pushed out, and largely by the groups that now dominate SA politics.

[Averageman]

They could and should read the writings of history and understand they are literally cutting off the hands that feed them.
3000 to one likely means if you push one family off of their land 15,000 people are now less likely to eat. With those kinds of numbers you're not facing a bright picture on the horizon.
The other option would be that the Government Nationalizes the farms and forces the families to labor for the collective on those farms in order to not become Ethiopia.
Yeah, I would pack my gear for a quick exit and get my Family far away from that mess because it's quickly moving from worse to disaster and is skipping bad completely. Getting out alive at this point is the only viable option.

[SomeOtherGuy]

They could and should read the writings of history and understand they are literally cutting off the hands that feed them.

It's extremely difficult to get people in the smartest (average IQ) democracies and/or mob rule countries to learn anything meaningful from history. You can't expect it elsewhere. All you can do is try to run from the fallout, and consider Aristotle's views on more desirable forms of government.


The other option would be that the Government Nationalizes the farms and forces the families to labor for the collective on those farms in order to not become Ethiopia.

Yeah, because nationalize and collectivized farms have worked so well to avoid famines. Go ask some Ukrainians - well, some of the living ones at least. Or China, North Korea, etc.

It is exceedingly difficult to make a farm run efficiently and it comes down to hyper-local knowledge of all relevant conditions, as well as incentive structures. In normal times the free market western farms do far better than others. The only successful war-emergency increases in production that I know of were for US and UK farms during WW2, and due to the desperate need for food they were given a combination of access to resources, a very free hand on management though with government advisors, and the incentive of getting to keep some of their production and therefore eat better than the rest of the civilian population - because direct personal interest is more reliable than notions of patriotism.


Yeah, I would pack my gear for a quick exit and get my Family far away from that mess because it's quickly moving from worse to disaster and is skipping bad completely. Getting out alive at this point is the only viable option.

Indeed. But it's realistically been too late for a decade or more now. The wiser South Africans left in the '90's. As of today very few countries are willing to take white South Africans as immigrants, even if they try to jump through all the normal hoops, and the farmers have hardly any moveable assets due to the looming threat of confiscation making their land worthless on any free market.

Last I knew, Russia was willing to accept a modest number of Boer farmers to migrate under very specific conditions, and they were expected to invest something like $500,000 per person for the privilege. Australia seems to be waffling on whether they will take in SA farmers as refugees, which they should, or attach themselves to what I will delicately call extreme leftism/racism and deny them due to leftist pressure. The US and Canada should be welcoming them but I'm not aware of any government efforts to do so.

[Averageman]

My Dad retired from the Military in the mid 1970's with some specialized training and met and spoke with some folks who offered him a job in Rhodesia.
My Dad was down like four flat tires, if he would have been single he likely would have flown back with them that day. As it was he presented the proposition to Mom and she, having seen way too many Tarzan Movies declined the offer.
I having read too many issues of Soldier of Fortune wondered what life might have been like had we made that move. Likely very different than it is now for sure.

I'm pretty certain the writing might have been on the wall for decades, but what do you do when you're Farming land that's been in your family for 200+ years?

[SomeOtherGuy]

In what I'm certain is purely a coincidence, 300,000 South African gun owners were just given immediate notice to hand in their guns:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-28/land-confiscations-loom-south-africa-rules-300000-gun-owners-turn-over-their


Now that the High Court’s initial ruling has been overturned, gun owners who failed to renew their firearms licenses must hand in their firearms to the nearest police station, where authorities will then proceed to destroy them.

Gee, if I were part of a prosperous minority that was the subject of constant death threats and frequent deadly attacks in an environment of superheated political rhetoric, I would certainly be rushing to hand over my guns and just hope for the best.

More seriously, for any South Africans reading this: this is IT, you need to either escape the country immediately with your life, or take other action for your safety. The genocide alarm is ringing loud and clear.

[Honu]

the left is so happy right now I bet !

[Renegade]

If I was a South African landowner (regardless of color), I would take what the goverent offers and get out of the country. It won't be long until 2 things happen:

1. The South African government will see just how much capitol is bleeding from their country and make it all but impossible to move assets out.
2. All private land will be seized for distribution to "the people".

Andy

Yep, you gotta know when to hold them and when to fold them, and when to GTFO.

[sgtrock82]

Didnt a bunch of SA farmers try applying for asylum in Canada and those feckless cucks rejected them. I seem to recall it was because the Canadians felt their "claims" of racial persecution were themselves racist in nature.

Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk

[26 Inf]

Didnt a bunch of SA farmers try applying for asylum in Canada and those feckless cucks rejected them. I seem to recall it was because the Canadians felt their "claims" of racial persecution were themselves racist in nature.

Here you go: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/white-south-african-familys-refugee-bid-rejected-allegedly-boosted-case-with-white-supremacist-information

Could be they are gun shy, South Africa pitched a bitch when they let this guy in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/sep/01/canada-south-africa-asylum-seeker

As for my personal view, I'm old skool, I believe America should project power in a righteous manner, stepping in anyplace to stop genocide in it's tracks. Regardless of the economic status, race, religion, or nationality of the persecuted people.

I believe much of the problem we face today is because our actions have been expedient rather than righteous.

But that is just me, YMMV.

[sundance435]

Even if you completely accept every facet of the "white genocide" narrative as true (which you just can't, logically), still, to me at least, when you have benefited directly from a system of oppression over the majority of people in a country and now it appears that the natives are restless, and they have more control over the levers of power, it's hard for me to have a lot of sympathy for you. If the majority does indeed take over these farms, will they probably go the same way as Zimbabwe and become unproductive messes? Yes, but so be it. There's something to be said for allowing people to determine their own fate. Granted, like most folks whose "plan" didn't turn out the way they wanted, they will likely shift blame to anything but themselves, but it doesn't change the underlying injustice they've endured.

ETA: I'm not condoning the murder of civilians to achieve your political means, but that's just the reality of the situation now. The white South Africans that left probably knew it was inevitable and the ones who remain either take almost nothing for their land or fight to the death. Humans aren't very good at working through large scale, complex situations in ways that don't involve killing people, let alone in situations with deep historical roots. Paraphrasing Tom Waits, we're primates with money and guns.

[sundance435]

As for my personal view, I'm old skool, I believe America should project power in a righteous manner, stepping in anyplace to stop genocide in it's tracks. Regardless of the economic status, race, religion, or nationality of the persecuted people.

I believe much of the problem we face today is because our actions have been expedient rather than righteous.

But that is just me, YMMV.

Roger that. That's what's made us better than most over the last 100 years - our wars (with the exception of a few regrettably dubious minor episodes in Central America) were always about something more than material gain - there was a righteous quality to them, even if the folks who started it didn't do a good job of explaining it to those that fought them (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, later Afghanistan). It must've taken some cahones for Ike to tell France and the UK to pound sand over the Suez. MacArthur believed that for Korea to be a righteous use of U.S. force, as he believed was the only proper use for it, we had to take the war to China. He wasn't wrong, just as Truman wasn't wrong in believing the country would not stand for it (though that is partly due to his Administration's handling of the conflict with regard to the public) and the very real possibility that it would trigger WWIII, but he and his staff didn't have the cahones or capabilities to articulate that to the public. So, our men are left wondering what they hell they're doing in a "police action" in what was then a 3rd World backwater, which to them felt very much like a real war. That's what happens when politicians abandon their responsibility for justifying military actions in line with the beliefs of the people and you leave it to military men to fight the war AND define and achieve your political and foreign policy goals. LBJ and Bush II behaved the same way.

[Adrenaline_6]

Even if you completely accept every facet of the "white genocide" narrative as true (which you just can't, logically), still, to me at least, when you have benefited directly from a system of oppression over the majority of people in a country and now it appears that the natives are restless, and they have more control over the levers of power, it's hard for me to have a lot of sympathy for you. If the majority does indeed take over these farms, will they probably go the same way as Zimbabwe and become unproductive messes? Yes, but so be it. There's something to be said for allowing people to determine their own fate. Granted, like most folks whose "plan" didn't turn out the way they wanted, they will likely shift blame to anything but themselves, but it doesn't change the underlying injustice they've endured.

ETA: I'm not condoning the murder of civilians to achieve your political means, but that's just the reality of the situation now. The white South Africans that left probably new it was inevitable and the ones who remain either take almost nothing for their land or fight to the death. Humans aren't very good at working through large scale, complex situations in ways that don't involve killing people, let alone in situations with deep historical roots. Paraphrasing Tom Waits, we're primates with money and guns.

Hmmm...so you are alright with farmers who were in place for generations, that developed the area being taken advantage of by natives, that really were not natives of that particular area, taking and sometimes killing these farmers because they were citizens of a country that previously had a system in place that oppressed a certain race of people.

So you would be fine with the government take your property and you and your family live in an environment where a group of black people that were descendants of slaves could possibly come in the wee hours of the night to pillage, kill, and/or burn all ytour sh*t?

[RazorBurn]

Hmmm...so you are alright with farmers who were in place for generations, that developed the area being taken advantage of by natives, that really were not natives of that particular area, taking and sometimes killing these farmers because they were citizens of a country that previously had a system in place that oppressed a certain race of people.

So you would be fine with the government take your property and you and your family live in an environment where a group of black people that were descendants of slaves could possibly come in the wee hours of the night to pillage, kill, and/or burn all ytour sh*t?

I eagerly await his response to your lucid and well thought out response.

[sundance435]

Hmmm...so you are alright with farmers who were in place for generations, that developed the area being taken advantage of by natives, that really were not natives of that particular area, taking and sometimes killing these farmers because they were citizens of a country that previously had a system in place that oppressed a certain race of people.

So you would be fine with the government take your property and you and your family live in an environment where a group of black people that were descendants of slaves could possibly come in the wee hours of the night to pillage, kill, and/or burn all ytour sh*t?

Well, when you put it that way and ignore all of the history and sociology of the place you're talking about, probably not. These "farmers" (actually more like plantation owners in the antebellum sense) did not move into this situation unwittingly - these are family farms passed down over 200+ years, which still provides no justification for their treatment of the majority population. Not only that, if they were morally opposed to how they came to be, they could've sold into a buyer's market up until about 20 years ago. It's not simply that they inherited a farm from ancestors who benefited from racist policies (which, again, is no actual justification), it's that they've done nothing to fix it and now they're terrified that the bill for their 200+ years of prosperity through oppression is coming due.

I thought someone would go the Native American route if they bothered to reply to me, which is also not comparable. Since you mentioned black slaves in the U.S., which is not remotely the same as South Africa, since blacks have never been a majority in this country and didn't have their land expropriated - no, it's not the same at all as your first claim, since my family never owned slaves, never lived in an area where slavery occurred, and never benefited from it in the slightest. I'm going to guess my ancestors, as small farmers, were not very supportive of slavery, if for nothing more than economic reasons. That said, four of them did fight and 1 died for the Union, whether they righteously believed in ending slavery or not. Does that mean that as an American I have no obligation to try and reasonably help rectify our past? I don't believe so, but I guess that depends on your personal opinion and definition of "reasonable" in that sense. Now there have been white South African farmers who actively tried to rectify past sins and have been murdered, but we're talking a handful, so it's the exception and not the rule. Not only that, but the U.S. has actually tried, very imperfectly, to right the wrongs of our past, which is something that never occurred in South Africa until black South Africans actually took control of the government - that's what happens when you don't address historical injustices, they have a way coming back to haunt you (just like our imperfect handling of it still does).

It annoys me that people use situations like this (and amplify their truthfulness) to try and backhandedly justify what precipitated it, then use ridiculously imperfect historical "analogies" to support their position.

[sundance435]

I eagerly await his response to your lucid and well thought out response.

Damn it! I wish I'd seen this before I replied. ;)

[26 Inf]

Even if you completely accept every facet of the "white genocide" narrative as true (which you just can't, logically), still, to me at least, when you have benefited directly from a system of oppression over the majority of people in a country and now it appears that the natives are restless, and they have more control over the levers of power, it's hard for me to have a lot of sympathy for you.

Added from later post: It's not simply that they inherited a farm from ancestors who benefited from racist policies (which, again, is no actual justification), it's that they've done nothing to fix it

I get what you are saying, but have you considered that many of these folks are the simply the last generation to farm family lands and had little or nothing to do with the origins of their land?

It seems, that by your logic, you would be okay with Native American or Spanish seizure of most of Los Estados Unidos.

As for they've done nothing to fix it. You and I are pretty much allied in thinking, so I'd guess maybe so in action. I try to 'fix' things as I can, but I always stop short of actions that impact my family's well-being or future prospects.

My points: 1) How do we know that none of these folks hasn't taken action, as they are able, to make things better? and 2) Is it reasonable to expect other folks to give up everything when we haven't?

[Whiskey_Bravo]

Even if you completely accept every facet of the "white genocide" narrative as true (which you just can't, logically), still, to me at least, when you have benefited directly from a system of oppression over the majority of people in a country and now it appears that the natives are restless, and they have more control over the levers of power, it's hard for me to have a lot of sympathy for you. If the majority does indeed take over these farms, will they probably go the same way as Zimbabwe and become unproductive messes? Yes, but so be it. There's something to be said for allowing people to determine their own fate. Granted, like most folks whose "plan" didn't turn out the way they wanted, they will likely shift blame to anything but themselves, but it doesn't change the underlying injustice they've endured.

ETA: I'm not condoning the murder of civilians to achieve your political means, but that's just the reality of the situation now. The white South Africans that left probably knew it was inevitable and the ones who remain either take almost nothing for their land or fight to the death. Humans aren't very good at working through large scale, complex situations in ways that don't involve killing people, let alone in situations with deep historical roots. Paraphrasing Tom Waits, we're primates with money and guns.

The bold section is interesting. You mention letting people determine their own fate but are ok with the fate of farmers being decided by a government that is hell bent on confiscating land that has been held for sometimes generations, possibly with little or no compensation.

You can't right past wrongs by punishing those in the present. How far do you go back to right past wrongs? 20, 100, 200, 1000 years?

[TAZ]

Interesting that we ASS U ME that these farmers having their land taken from them are not only generation 0 colonials, but that they have spent their days opposing the political “progress” that has been unfolding in SA. How do we know that? Is it possible that these very same people helped bring about the new political landscape, by voting progressive..

Like Zimbabwe this will turn ugly both in the short term with racial cleansing by the locals. In the long term the nation will be starving in a few years demanding tax benefits from the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the rest of the world won’t have the balls to say tough shit.

[sundance435]

I get what you are saying, but have you considered that many of these folks are the simply the last generation to farm family lands and had little or nothing to do with the origins of their land?

It seems, that by your logic, you would be okay with Native American or Spanish seizure of most of Los Estados Unidos.

As for they've done nothing to fix it. You and I are pretty much allied in thinking, so I'd guess maybe so in action. I try to 'fix' things as I can, but I always stop short of actions that impact my family's well-being or future prospects.

My points: 1) How do we know that none of these folks hasn't taken action, as they are able, to make things better? and 2) Is it reasonable to expect other folks to give up everything when we haven't?

Yeah, I don't have a good argument for Native Americans - I struggle with that one, though I don't get arguments for or against "natives", because if you extrapolate it out, no one is a "native", absent arbitrary criteria. Regardless, we treated them badly. Similarly, the fact that black South Africans were there before the whites doesn't really carry any weight with me - it's what the whites did after and the fact that blacks are a majority that is compelling. Force as a means of acquisition has always been a valid, if not strictly legal means to an end in every culture, up until the invasion of Poland for the West. I also think it's inappropriate to completely judge past actions based on today's thinking. So, in my book, Spain and the Native Americans have a pretty weak claim if it's only based on the past. I think I've tried to imply that the current situation has more to do with the actions of people still alive today or in recent memory than the past, but you also have to understand the past for a full picture. The "history" in this case serves as a distraction for either side, but it's not unimportant. Yes, some white South Africans have sought to change the status quo and a few of them were murdered for it, but, as always, the majority (of the whites) have not.

I certainly think we can do a heckuva lot more to atone for our sins against Native Americans without necessarily punishing ourselves. And your point about not impacting you or your family's well-being is kind of what I was getting at by saying I feel some obligation to REASONABLY try to fix past wrongs by my country. As to your last point, which I'm sure you meant rhetorically - of course it is, we're just two people thousands of miles away on an internet board.


The bold section is interesting. You mention letting people determine their own fate but are ok with the fate of farmers being decided by a government that is hell bent on confiscating land that has been held for sometimes generations, possibly with little or no compensation.

You can't right past wrongs by punishing those in the present. How far do you go back to right past wrongs? 20, 100, 200, 1000 years?

I agree, not much to be gained by using "modern" thinking to judge or justify past actions, except to learn from them. Like I said above, you won't solve anything by punishing those who weren't involved or didn't gain something from them, but that's not an excuse to ignore the past completely. Certainly we should be able to use the knowledge we've gained to try and improve upon our past without punishing anyone alive. I think there is a distinction here, though. It's not like this unrest bubbled up on a random Tuesday. It took 200+ years to reach this, including a period of 10-20 years where the same people alive today might have been able to do something about it or at least mitigate it. What's happening now is just the result of letting this fester unaddressed for too long, so now they're the on the side with no leverage or power. If you acquire/inherit your possessions that were themselves obtained by cruel means, then you often have to deal with the consequences of not addressing that at some point.

And if these farmers stay and fight, then they are indeed determining their own fate and I think they're entitled to do so - I'd probably respect them more if they did. Again, I say all of that knowing that it's "easy for you to say".

[sundance435]

Interesting that we ASS U ME that these farmers having their land taken from them are not only generation 0 colonials, but that they have spent their days opposing the political “progress” that has been unfolding in SA. How do we know that? Is it possible that these very same people helped bring about the new political landscape, by voting progressive..

Like Zimbabwe this will turn ugly both in the short term with racial cleansing by the locals. In the long term the nation will be starving in a few years demanding tax benefits from the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the rest of the world won’t have the balls to say tough shit.

Edit: Disregard. I'm not going to reply to uninformed opinions on this anymore. To those that raised informed philosophical and ethical questions regarding this, whether we agree or not, I salute you. To those living in a bubble I say, "more books, less Info Wars".

[Moose-Knuckle]

I'm not going to reply to uninformed opinions on this anymore. To those that raised informed philosophical and ethical questions regarding this, whether we agree or not, I salute you. To those living in a bubble I say, "more books, less Info Wars".

You've been a member here since 2008? :blink:

BTW, where did you receive your social justice indoctrination?

[sundance435]

You've been a member here since 2008? :blink:

BTW, where did you receive your social justice indoctrination?

Ha, I know, I've been here long enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be indignant. I received my social justice indoctrination promptly after a year of Constitutional Law and legal history, which included reading works by such left-wing guerrillas as Locke and Voltaire.

[yoni]

This will be a giant step backwards if this happens for many different reasons.

1. When the farmers are dead or driven out. Hunger will be a problem for the people remaining regardless of what color their skin happens to be.

2. The sins of the fathers, should not be visited on the sons. Apartheid was wrong. But this is just as evil. It just replaces one evil with an other.

When I worked in Afrika, color of skin didn't matter to me. The same in the Republica Domincana, color doesn't matter. You work hard for me, I will pay you better than the guy down the road. You get hurt as part of working for me, I pay your medical bills. You want a better future for your children, me too. I will pay for school and the wat through university. I told my workers if your sons grow up to be thieves or farm workers that's on you. If your daughters grow up to be whore for gringo's from the EU or USA, that's on you. If we work together you push your kids to study hard and I pay for school, they become professionals that's on both of us.

That should be the model for Afrika and other places.

But it is a war against the west by Marxist, that is driving this. It is no different than Stalin against the kulocks.

So all those who cry about the sins of the past. One question you must ask yourself;

If the west is over run by muslims in the EU and Latinos from countries with no values of freedom and liberty in the USA. What will the world look like in this Marxist wet dream?

I have seen the intercepts of the KGB to assets in the USA and Europe from the 1960-70. All the radicalization of universities was pushed and funded by the KGB. They wanted to rot us out from the inside out. But thank G-D the USSR was more rotten than we were in the west.

Is the USA, Israel,EU, governments perfect of course not. But we are better than a Marxist paradise.

[Moose-Knuckle]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Well it's nice to make acquaintance with M4C's resident South Africa's equivalent to a Holocaust denier.

[pinzgauer]

I find the two adjacent comments quite amusing:


the fact that black South Africans were there before the whites doesn't really carry any weight with me - it's what the whites did after and the fact that blacks are a majority that is compelling.


Edit: Disregard. I'm not going to reply to uninformed opinions on this anymore. To those that raised informed philosophical and ethical questions regarding this, whether we agree or not, I salute you. To those living in a bubble I say, "more books, less Info Wars".

Very strong historical evidence that the current SA black majority arrived *after* the Boers were well established. And came to SA partly because of what the farmers offered. (Partly, it's way more complicated)

And the original indigenous population fared much worse in the hands of the current black majority since the showed up. To the point the originals sided with the Boers for the most part.

Here's an analogy: robber Baron industrialists built factories. Invested capital, made them work. They employed non skilled labor, did not pay them much. But folks still worked there as it was better than their other options.

So now is it OK to kill the descendents who still own the factories because the industrialists took advantage of a cheap and willing workforce?

Yeah maybe the robber barons influenced gov to help with their labor issues. Maybe it was bad to under pay them. But they did not take anything from their workers to build the factories.

We can argue slavery was an issue and it was. But much of what's in play now had nothing to do with slavery, came after.

By your argument all the large companies in the industrialized world are complicit and should be given back to anyone who worked there for cheap.

[RazorBurn]

Even if you completely accept every facet of the "white genocide" narrative as true (which you just can't, logically), still, to me at least, when you have benefited directly from a system of oppression over the majority of people in a country and now it appears that the natives are restless, and they have more control over the levers of power, it's hard for me to have a lot of sympathy for you. If the majority does indeed take over these farms, will they probably go the same way as Zimbabwe and become unproductive messes? Yes, but so be it. There's something to be said for allowing people to determine their own fate. Granted, like most folks whose "plan" didn't turn out the way they wanted, they will likely shift blame to anything but themselves, but it doesn't change the underlying injustice they've endured.

ETA: I'm not condoning the murder of civilians to achieve your political means, but that's just the reality of the situation now. The white South Africans that left probably knew it was inevitable and the ones who remain either take almost nothing for their land or fight to the death. Humans aren't very good at working through large scale, complex situations in ways that don't involve killing people, let alone in situations with deep historical roots. Paraphrasing Tom Waits, we're primates with money and guns.


Yeah, I don't have a good argument for Native Americans - I struggle with that one, though I don't get arguments for or against "natives", because if you extrapolate it out, no one is a "native", absent arbitrary criteria. Regardless, we treated them badly. Similarly, the fact that black South Africans were there before the whites doesn't really carry any weight with me - it's what the whites did after and the fact that blacks are a majority that is compelling. Force as a means of acquisition has always been a valid, if not strictly legal means to an end in every culture, up until the invasion of Poland for the West. I also think it's inappropriate to completely judge past actions based on today's thinking. So, in my book, Spain and the Native Americans have a pretty weak claim if it's only based on the past. I think I've tried to imply that the current situation has more to do with the actions of people still alive today or in recent memory than the past, but you also have to understand the past for a full picture. The "history" in this case serves as a distraction for either side, but it's not unimportant. Yes, some white South Africans have sought to change the status quo and a few of them were murdered for it, but, as always, the majority (of the whites) have not.

I certainly think we can do a heckuva lot more to atone for our sins against Native Americans without necessarily punishing ourselves. And your point about not impacting you or your family's well-being is kind of what I was getting at by saying I feel some obligation to REASONABLY try to fix past wrongs by my country. As to your last point, which I'm sure you meant rhetorically - of course it is, we're just two people thousands of miles away on an internet board.

I agree, not much to be gained by using "modern" thinking to judge or justify past actions, except to learn from them. Like I said above, you won't solve anything by punishing those who weren't involved or didn't gain something from them, but that's not an excuse to ignore the past completely. Certainly we should be able to use the knowledge we've gained to try and improve upon our past without punishing anyone alive. I think there is a distinction here, though. It's not like this unrest bubbled up on a random Tuesday. It took 200+ years to reach this, including a period of 10-20 years where the same people alive today might have been able to do something about it or at least mitigate it. What's happening now is just the result of letting this fester unaddressed for too long, so now they're the on the side with no leverage or power. If you acquire/inherit your possessions that were themselves obtained by cruel means, then you often have to deal with the consequences of not addressing that at some point.

And if these farmers stay and fight, then they are indeed determining their own fate and I think they're entitled to do so - I'd probably respect them more if they did. Again, I say all of that knowing that it's "easy for you to say".

What a bunch of meaningless hippy jargon and excuses without any type of logical answer coupled with one helluva flip flop. The reality is what happened in the past is just that. It happened in the past under different times, different rules and a whole different sets of laws. Reality check, indentured and forced servitude used to be normal and lawful. Then the world changed. Since the beginning of time conquered nations were the source for manual labor. If we follow you're logic, then I reckon your solution would be for Norman descendants go back to Normandy, and have them release all the land and assets they've accumulated in Britain since William the Conqueror took over in 1066. See how utterly stupid that sounds? People win, people lose, and the world keeps turning. Then again, maybe Sundance rethinks we should do some revisionist history and land redistribution because of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades while we're at it?

Some people settle something that no one else has and in turn make it something of it. Then, a bunch of people with no right to someone else's property other than being different ethnically want it for nothing because at some point in history they were "oppressed", "held back" or whatever excuse they can conjure up because what was once normal and lawful isn't anymore. For that matter, maybe we should just let the Jews have Germany because we all know what happened to them there. No one could say they aren't entitled to a hell of a lot of retribution for what they suffered at Nazi hands. What about the other races that the Germans enslaved and murdered? Sure we need to be vigilant and do everything in our power to prevent atrocities like that from ever happening again. To use that as an excuse to give away someone else's property they've owned for hundreds of years just because they're white, black, blue, purple, or whatever reason would like is totally asinine.

My response is if you want something, get off your ass and earn it. Any other type of unearned redistribution is nothing less than socialism/communism and we see how well that's working in Venezuela... What you have going on in South Africa is a brazen excuse to take something forcibly because "we were oppressed, we don't own enough, we didn't get a fair share, and blah blah blah". The reality is they will take away what isn't rightfully or lawfully their's, and commit some type "ethnic cleansing" under the sake of "all's fair". People like Sundance are going to endorse and justify it because "they were oppressed and now they're entitled". Entitlement my big ole hairy butt!!!

[RazorBurn]

Ha, I know, I've been here long enough to know that I shouldn't pretend to be indignant. I received my social justice indoctrination promptly after a year of Constitutional Law and legal history, which included reading works by such left-wing guerrillas as Locke and Voltaire.

I suggest you offset that with a good dose of Thomas Paine and Winston Churchill. ;)

[Averageman]

Isn't this the equivalent of a Family of the native Alaskan Tribes moving slowly southward over generations until they arrive in Texas and then demanding land as reparations?
I mean technically their ancestors were on the North American continent before we arrived and we began pursuing agriculture in Texas. They just weren't in Texas yet.
And by the way, never have they, then or now have an idea just how agriculture works, not in Alaska or Texas.

[AndyLate]

The wild cards are the diamond & gold mines... When the new dictator tries to nationalize them I expect major shooting.

That is pretty much the only thing they won't do. The "leaders" will trade land for allegiance and political gain, but they won't become millionaires doing it. The mines are a cash cow as long as whoever runs it knows what they are doing, and the people with power know it. They also know that the mines will become all but worthless if they are nstionalized.

Andy

[26 Inf]

I suggest you offset that with a good dose of Thomas Paine and Winston Churchill. ;)

Surprised you didn't add Ayn Rand or Robert Heinlein - I post that in jest because it amuses me when folks quote fiction writers as if they were of any import beyond writing fiction.

How many folks do you think actually had no opinion and read Paine or Churchill and decided 'Hey, that resonates with me! I'm going to become an acolyte.'

I don't think it often happens that way. We are far more likely to be a champion of someone if they fit a preconceived notion that we already have about the subject.

Now, the process of how we arrive at those preconceived notions might be of some interest, although, often the route we take to illumination is merely following the lead of our buddies, our families, or an authority figure.

I think we should open our eyes and our minds. Look around. We should arrive at conclusions we think are just and right based on our analysis.

Sure, there are outside influences. But we don't get extra points just because we attach someone's name to our beliefs.

Rant off.

[RazorBurn]

Surprised you didn't add Ayn Rand or Robert Heinlein - I post that in jest because it amuses me when folks quote fiction writers as if they were of any import beyond writing fiction.

How many folks do you think actually had no opinion and read Paine or Churchill and decided 'Hey, that resonates with me! I'm going to become an acolyte.'

I don't think it often happens that way. We are far more likely to be a champion of someone if they fit a preconceived notion that we already have about the subject.

Now, the process of how we arrive at those preconceived notions might be of some interest, although, often the route we take to illumination is merely following the lead of our buddies, our families, or an authority figure.

I think we should open our eyes and our minds. Look around. We should arrive at conclusions we think are just and right based on our analysis.

Sure, there are outside influences. But we don't get extra points just because we attach someone's name to our beliefs.

Rant off.

Mmmmmkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyy

Maybe I should have used J.R.R. Tolkien or J.K. Rowling since I missed the fantasy land exit.

I was merely pointing out that someone should broaden their interests whilst they were bragging about their credentials. As if their education or favorite authors has anything to do with their imagined level of superiority to anyone else posting in this thread. In short, I posted a smart ass response to a smart ass post. Nothing more, nothing less. I imagined him (or her) sitting there typing their post(s) sporting their Thurston B. Howell the Third hat and coat while waxing nostalgic for the good old days when the peasants weren't allowed to communicate or question their master and better... :D

Oops, there I go again... ;)


My point was that it doesn't matter how learned someone thinks they are, or how philosophically they've waxed. I made my post in jest. I thought it was pretty apparent. I supposed I should have used some type of smiley face emoticon. :jester:

[26 Inf]

Mmmmmkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyy

My point was that it doesn't matter how learned someone thinks they are, or how philosophically they've waxed. I made my post in jest. I thought it was pretty apparent. I supposed I should have used some type of smiley face emoticon. :jester:

Now I feel badly.

I should have saved my rant for the next breathless report of 'Q's' latest pronouncement.

[soulezoo]

What a bunch of meaningless hippy jargon and excuses without any type of logical answer coupled with one helluva flip flop. The reality is what happened in the past is just that. It happened in the past under different times, different rules and a whole different sets of laws. Reality check, indentured and forced servitude used to be normal and lawful. Then the world changed. Since the beginning of time conquered nations were the source for manual labor. If we follow you're logic, then I reckon your solution would be for Norman descendants go back to Normandy, and have them release all the land and assets they've accumulated in Britain since William the Conqueror took over in 1066. See how utterly stupid that sounds? People win, people lose, and the world keeps turning. Then again, maybe Sundance rethinks we should do some revisionist history and land redistribution because of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades while we're at it?

Some people settle something that no one else has and in turn make it something of it. Then, a bunch of people with no right to someone else's property other than being different ethnically want it for nothing because at some point in history they were "oppressed", "held back" or whatever excuse they can conjure up because what was once normal and lawful isn't anymore. For that matter, maybe we should just let the Jews have Germany because we all know what happened to them there. No one could say they aren't entitled to a hell of a lot of retribution for what they suffered at Nazi hands. What about the other races that the Germans enslaved and murdered? Sure we need to be vigilant and do everything in our power to prevent atrocities like that from ever happening again. To use that as an excuse to give away someone else's property they've owned for hundreds of years just because they're white, black, blue, purple, or whatever reason would like is totally asinine.

My response is if you want something, get off your ass and earn it. Any other type of unearned redistribution is nothing less than socialism/communism and we see how well that's working in Venezuela... What you have going on in South Africa is a brazen excuse to take something forcibly because "we were oppressed, we don't own enough, we didn't get a fair share, and blah blah blah". The reality is they will take away what isn't rightfully or lawfully their's, and commit some type "ethnic cleansing" under the sake of "all's fair". People like Sundance are going to endorse and justify it because "they were oppressed and now they're entitled". Entitlement my big ole hairy butt!!!
Being a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, I am offended!

Ok, maybe I'm not offended, but I really am a descendant of William the Conqueror (through Kings Edward I, II, and III)... and I can't even get an estate anywhere! :-) But $5 gets me a cup of coffee...

[RazorBurn]

Now I feel badly.

I should have saved my rant for the next breathless report of 'Q's' latest pronouncement.

Ok, that one did make me LOL! :D

How about we put on the tin foil jester hat and sing Kumbaya? :jester:


Being a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, I am offended!

Ok, maybe I'm not offended, but I really am a descendant of William the Conqueror (through Kings Edward I, II, and III)... and I can't even get an estate anywhere! :-) But $5 gets me a cup of coffee...

You sound like you may be related to shooterike, a member on the Gunboards forum... :D

[The_War_Wagon]

Rhodesia —> Zimbabwe all over again. Starts off white genocide but this is really political so anyone of any color that isn’t on board with the SA regime will get necklaced/disappeared/property confiscated as well.

Mandela was a commie and his wife a terrorist. What more could we expect from this bunch. I am amazed any white farmers stuck around for so many years after the ANC grabbed control.


Have they started recruiting yet?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/G5AAAOSwubRXHTbB/s-l300.jpg

[flenna]

Have they started recruiting yet?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/G5AAAOSwubRXHTbB/s-l300.jpg

Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,

The hour when earth's foundations fled,

Followed their mercenary calling,

And took their wages, and are dead.



Their shoulders held the sky suspended;

They stood, and earth's foundations stay;

What God abandoned, these defended,

And saved the sum of things for pay.


-A.E. Housman

[sundance435]

I suggest you offset that with a good dose of Thomas Paine and Winston Churchill. ;)

Who were both in turn heavily influenced by Locke and the Scottish "thinkers" and, for Paine, particularly Voltaire.


Mmmmmkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyy

Maybe I should have used J.R.R. Tolkien or J.K. Rowling since I missed the fantasy land exit.

I was merely pointing out that someone should broaden their interests whilst they were bragging about their credentials. As if their education or favorite authors has anything to do with their imagined level of superiority to anyone else posting in this thread. In short, I posted a smart ass response to a smart ass post. Nothing more, nothing less. I imagined him (or her) sitting there typing their post(s) sporting their Thurston B. Howell the Third hat and coat while waxing nostalgic for the good old days when the peasants weren't allowed to communicate or question their master and better... :D

Oops, there I go again... ;)


My point was that it doesn't matter how learned someone thinks they are, or how philosophically they've waxed. I made my post in jest. I thought it was pretty apparent. I supposed I should have used some type of smiley face emoticon. :jester:

I was more responding glibly to a glib post/ad hominem attack. If you're going to suggest I'm a SJW, then I'm going to point out where my beliefs actually lay. My opinion, but I think reading Locke and others gives an even deeper appreciation for the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Founders, as imperfect as they all were.

I don't think it's "right" that mobs of angry blacks kill white farmers, whatever their motives, but you reap what you sow and that's all I was really trying to say. My "problem", to the extent that I give it a second thought, is people who become breathless over clickbait articles and, in this case, ignore history, or very selectively choose parts of it, to point out the "plight" of white farmers in SA. There was some thoughtful debate in here, but then, as usual, it breaks down into calling someone else a "SJW" or a hippie for not agreeing with you. It's pretty pathetic if someone pointing out the actual injustices that black South Africans have faced to counter what is basically clickbait thought gets you labeled as a SJW/hippie, but believe what you want.

To pinzgauer, yes, the Boers may have originally settled sparsely populated land, but they drove into more populated "native" areas to get away from the British - these are the areas that are ground zero for the current problems, because they're comparatively good farmland.

[Todd.K]

I don't have to ignore history or have been pro apartheid to be against what is happening now. All it requires is a simple moral compass.

If your compass does a 180 based on "historical injustice" it is not in fact a compass.

If black and white weights tilt the scale differently depending on what side they are placed on... that is racism.

[26 Inf]

If black and white weights tilt the scale differently depending on what side they are placed on... that is racism.

And that, my friends, is quoted for truth.

[RazorBurn]

Who were both in turn heavily influenced by Locke and the Scottish "thinkers" and, for Paine, particularly Voltaire.



I was more responding glibly to a glib post/ad hominem attack. If you're going to suggest I'm a SJW, then I'm going to point out where my beliefs actually lay. My opinion, but I think reading Locke and others gives an even deeper appreciation for the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Founders, as imperfect as they all were.

I don't think it's "right" that mobs of angry blacks kill white farmers, whatever their motives, but you reap what you sow and that's all I was really trying to say. My "problem", to the extent that I give it a second thought, is people who become breathless over clickbait articles and, in this case, ignore history, or very selectively choose parts of it, to point out the "plight" of white farmers in SA. There was some thoughtful debate in here, but then, as usual, it breaks down into calling someone else a "SJW" or a hippie for not agreeing with you. It's pretty pathetic if someone pointing out the actual injustices that black South Africans have faced to counter what is basically clickbait thought gets you labeled as a SJW/hippie, but believe what you want.

To pinzgauer, yes, the Boers may have originally settled sparsely populated land, but they drove into more populated "native" areas to get away from the British - these are the areas that are ground zero for the current problems, because they're comparatively good farmland.

It would do you well to let the below quote sink in. Slowly if need be, but let it soak in. Because what you're advocating is that whitey or whomever else you deem has oppressed, downtrodden or held back another deserves what's coming them solely because of what their ancestors did at some point in time in history. Based on your standard maybe all of Central and South America should invade Spain for the atrocities the Conquistadors performed in the "New World".


I don't have to ignore history or have been pro apartheid to be against what is happening now. All it requires is a simple moral compass.

If your compass does a 180 based on "historical injustice" it is not in fact a compass.

If black and white weights tilt the scale differently depending on what side they are placed on... that is racism.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I don't think it's "right" that mobs of angry blacks kill white farmers, whatever their motives, but you reap what you sow and that's all I was really trying to say.

Well what a relief it is to discover that you don't think it's "right" that mobs of angry blacks butcher and rape white farmers and their families. As for reaping what one sows, why do you think Apartheid was institutionalized in the first place?




My "problem", to the extent that I give it a second thought, is people who become breathless over clickbait articles and, in this case, ignore history, or very selectively choose parts of it, to point out the "plight" of white farmers in SA.

And this guy wonders why people call him a social justice warrior . . .




It's pretty pathetic if someone pointing out the actual injustices that black South Africans have faced to counter what is basically clickbait thought gets you labeled as a SJW/hippie, but believe what you want.

So genocide so long as it targets whites is "clickbait"? Well you can say "clickbait" till your heart's content, you can deny the hate crimes to include the sexual assault of toddlers, and torture but it does not change the fact that it is happening. In fact, your fervent denial of what is happening with the constant "but but but blacks were mistreated in the past" highlights that you have an agenda of some sort.

[TAZ]

Edit: Disregard. I'm not going to reply to uninformed opinions on this anymore. To those that raised informed philosophical and ethical questions regarding this, whether we agree or not, I salute you. To those living in a bubble I say, "more books, less Info Wars".

Please explain to me why my opinion on what is going to happen in SA is uninformed. What happened to white farmers in Zimbabwe? What is stopping the same from happening in SA. Apparently nothing cause we have already seen reports of farmers being killed.

I think you should consider opening your mind beyond what’s in books and ponder the realities of human history. EVERYONE on this damned planet has been raped, pillaged and done the raping and pillaging. Some of us, have actually had to deal with being raped, pillaged, property taken, forced to live limited lives cause of our heritage. Does that give my son the right to pillage in return when he gets old enough? I don’t think so, and my family has been both literally and physically raped by communist.

Careful what you rationalize as being OK cause someone’s great grandfather did something a few decades ago. When it’s your kids’ turn to take it in the ass from someone who was slighted by your great great grandfather you might regret being so accepting of the “they deserve it” cause a generation ago they did something wrong mentality.

I truly hope that SA has learned from the mistakes of Zimbabwe and doesn’t take the same path. Not only for the sake of the white farmers, but also for the sake of many others who will undoubtedly suffer if those farms go belly up. You can bet your ass the ANC cadre won’t be the ones starving in the streets, just like you can’t find a single image of a skinny communist polit bureau member. I hope I’m absolutely wrong, but won’t hold my breath.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

but you reap what you sow and that's all I was really trying to say.

This sentence is telling. You reap what you sow.... It seems ancestral tribal style revenge is how we should settle past wrongs? Your great grandfather stole my land so I am going to kill your son and take the land back. Your father killed one of my goats 10 years ago and now that I am able I will kill 3 of your cows. Your ancestors who happen to be white settled land 200 years ago in a majority non white country so now we are going to take the land back by whatever means necessary. Seems like a solid plan. Why stop in South Africa, we should do this everywhere.


I know I said it in a previous post but maybe it needs repeating, you can't solve past wrongs by punishing those in the present.