Time to rebuild my Upper. Need rail advice. [Archive]

The Dumb Gun Collector

05-27-18, 22:10

Hey guys,

My old Colt lightweight upper is getting a little ragged. I picked up a SOCOM 14.5 barrel from G&R and I am getting ready to send it out to ADCO for to pin and weld a Surefire Socom FH on it (so I can run my .308 can on it). I am thinking about putting a MLOCK rail system on but I want the lightest 13 inch one that won't come loose. I presume it is basically a coin flip between BCM and Geissle? I don't keep up with the AR game as closely as handguns, so set me straight if there is a better system out there. I am planning on running a PEQ if that is important.

elephant

05-27-18, 22:27

I have experience with a few rails that I like.

Geissele Mk2 13" (out of production) not the lightest but good size and strong.
Geissele MK8 mlok - light weight, easy install.
Centurion CMR 13" they offer a mlok and easy install and light weight
Noveske NSR 13" is pretty light, both keymod and mlok is offered- pain in the ass to install.

I would recommend NOT pinning and welding your FH, BATFE issued a statement that says silver solder is excepted and approved method of attaching FH permanently to achieve 16 OAL. Its better because if you ever change your mind on FH/MB, you can simply apply heat and remove without drilling.

bb223

05-27-18, 23:05

I like the ALG EMR, you can't got wrong with "real" Geissele though either.

Wake27

05-28-18, 02:15

My KMR has been good for a few years and I just replaced an NSR with an MCMR and I like it a lot. They’re not the only game in town, but I’d pick one of the two you mentioned. The G rails will probably maintain your zero better, though there’s a weight trade off and I haven’t actually seen any proof that a BCM rail will fail at that, minus anything crazy.

I won’t use ADCO though. I’ve got a thread on here from a few months ago that’s worth looking up where I got a bunch of alternative options to for shop services. I’ve only had one experience with each, but Retro Arms Works was far better than ADCO in every single way.

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Nightstalker865

05-28-18, 06:58

If building from scratch, I would go Geissele every time.

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Rogue556

05-28-18, 07:43

Geissele would be first on the list, but the ALG EMR V3 would probably be the best bang for your buck considering price and features. Geissele/ALG has a sale today too so prices aren't bad at all.

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brianc142

05-28-18, 08:36

BCM MCMR or Geissele MK14. I have a few of both and it's a toss up.

Stickman

05-28-18, 09:08

I would strongly consider the rail from Centurion Arms.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/5d97c90ebac55c91a855fc70f02323a6/tumblr_p8bxablwNk1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg

Stickman

05-28-18, 09:21

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8cd22bdb6ee0d9b60583ad00dabba7b0/tumblr_p8yklpsiI21rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/641021d74f39ea7ccd0730f25959d097/tumblr_p8ykll20Cd1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg

Outlander Systems

05-28-18, 09:24

Https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-ar15-13-2-handguard-lt15-13-2/

https://static.larue.com/media/cache/86/19/8619f6ee6dc2d3be8a36e62f98c32d62.jpg

Stickman

05-28-18, 09:34

Hey guys,

I am thinking about putting a MLOCK rail system on but I want the lightest 13 inch one that won't come loose.

Https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-ar15-13-2-handguard-lt15-13-2/

https://static.larue.com/media/cache/86/19/8619f6ee6dc2d3be8a36e62f98c32d62.jpg

I think you need a little more coffee this morning, either that or you jest.

SiGfever

05-28-18, 09:43

I would strongly consider the rail from Centurion Arms.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/5d97c90ebac55c91a855fc70f02323a6/tumblr_p8bxablwNk1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg

The Centurion Arms rail on my Colt Trooper is my favorite, it is slim, lightweight, and is a pleasure to use. My original KMR runs a close second.

Stickman

05-28-18, 09:50

The Centurion Arms rail on my Colt Trooper is my favorite, it is slim, lightweight, and is a pleasure to use. My original KMR runs a close second.

KMR is certainly a good one as well.

PatrioticDisorder

05-28-18, 09:54

Those Centurian Arms rails really look nice, sometimes I think we forget there are different rail options out there aside from Geissele and BCM. Thank you for posting Stickman.

TexasAggie2005

05-28-18, 10:57

OP,

Geissele Mk14 is what you seek. Here is my 14.5" SOCOM barrel w/ Surefire flash hider.

https://imgur.com/upLwI9K.jpg

DiamondD

05-28-18, 11:00

I only have a sample size of one BUT, I just got a BCM 13" MCMR on a 16" ELW BCM upper and I absolutely love this thing. Keep in mind all my others are quad rails so take it for what it's worth. I can't see how anyone wouldn't be happy with the MCMR.

gunnerblue

05-28-18, 11:02

Geissele MK13/14 would be my choice especially if using a PEQ. The barrel nut is very long and robust- more so than the KMR. I own both along with a 11” NSR which is sturdy but needs to be timed if that’s an issue. I have no experience with Centurion rails but they certainly look nice.

DiamondD

05-28-18, 11:03

Where do you get that heat wrap stuff Aggie? Nice carbine BTW

Tigereye

05-28-18, 11:03

The Centurion Arms rail on my Colt Trooper is my favorite, it is slim, lightweight, and is a pleasure to use. My original KMR runs a close second.

This for me. But, I also like the ALG.

MistWolf

05-28-18, 11:39

I would strongly consider the rail from Centurion Arms.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/5d97c90ebac55c91a855fc70f02323a6/tumblr_p8bxablwNk1rrcg2fo1_1280.jpg

This is the way I'd go. I am not a fan of metal handguards because they are hot in the summer and cold in the winter and adding plastic covers increases weight and girth. But I got the chance to handle a Colt CCU with the covers installed and the setup was light with a surprisingly small cross section that's comfortable in my hands. Of all the aluminum handguards I've tried, this is the only setup I like enough to buy. In fact, I'm waiting impatiently for the group buy for the Centurion handguard to go through that Stick is so graciously sponsoring for us.

wetidlerjr

05-28-18, 11:47

I like the ALG EMR, you can't got wrong with "real" Geissele though either.
I second that motion. :cool:

titsonritz

05-28-18, 12:08

BCM 13" MCMR * 10.5oz * $189.95
Centurion 13" CMR * 10.3oz * $230
Geissele 13" SMR * 12oz * $250
SIONICS 13.5" V2 * 10.5oz * $159.95 (not positive if weight includes hardware)

Weight includes hardware, price is retail. You can't lose with any of them. I really, really like my Centurion 15", slim, lightweight, solid, QD sockets front & rear, beautifully finished.

titsonritz

05-28-18, 12:13

I like the ALG EMR, you can't got wrong with "real" Geissele though either.

The EMR is my go-to budget rail, that is not a knock, just the opposite, it is the only rail that fits that notch IMO. And right now, today with the Memorial Day sale they are crazy cheap.

556BlackRifle

05-28-18, 12:19

1_ Centurion CMR 13 Link (https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/ml1513.htm)

2_ Geisselle MK8 Link (https://geissele.com/super-modular-rail-mk8-m-lok.html) or MK4 which kind of a hybrid design as it has machined in pic rail sections up front. Link (https://geissele.com/super-modular-rail-mk4-m-lok-701.html)

3_ BCM MCMR. The lightest by a hair and least expensive option. Link (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-MCMR-13-M-LOK-Compatible-Modular-Rail-MMR-p/bcm-mcmr-13-556-blk.htm)

titsonritz

05-28-18, 12:29

1_ Centurion CMR 13 Link (https://www.centurionarms.com/product-p/ml1513.htm)

2_ Geisselle MK8 Link (https://geissele.com/super-modular-rail-mk8-m-lok.html) or MK4 which kind of a hybrid design as it has machined in pic rail sections up front. Link (https://geissele.com/super-modular-rail-mk4-m-lok-701.html)

3_ BCM MCMR. The lightest by a hair and least expensive option. Link (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-MCMR-13-M-LOK-Compatible-Modular-Rail-MMR-p/bcm-mcmr-13-556-blk.htm)

Actually the Centurion is the lightest (don't forget to add the hardware)

556BlackRifle

05-28-18, 14:15

Actually the Centurion is the lightest (don't forget to add the hardware)

Good catch. BCM is 0.2 oz heavier. I stand corrected. :)

Defaultmp3

05-28-18, 14:42

Public Service Announcement:

Handguard:
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_12/large/akbor12_2.jpg

Handguard:
http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2014/10/imbel-fal-military-surplus-2015-handguard-600x384.1421390464.jpg

Handguard:
https://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Hand%20Guard/MAG551/MAG551-BLK-15.png&Width=1200&Height=700&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Crop=5

Handguard:
http://www.del-ton.com/v/vspfiles/photos/HG1012-2.jpg

Rail:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/Picatinny.svg

Rail:
http://store.a51tactical.com/images/MB1231.jpg

Quad-Rail Handguard:
https://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/318965.jpg

MLOK Handguard:
https://4b1e874935ea5d25a97e-f099844d0e354c7ab50c55a966be6870.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/product/xalg.jpg

Railed MLOK Handguard:
https://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Rails/MAG602/Single/MAG602-1-15.png&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=950&Height=450&Crop=5

Point: the thing you hold is a handguard.
The raised mount is the rail.
If you stick rails on a handguard, it's a railed handguard.
An "MLOK Rail" is a piece of rail that you stick to an MLOK handguard, not a handguard with MLOK cut into it.
Long ago, in the way back, we all got lazy and called "Quad Rail Handguards", "Rail Interface Systems", and "Rail Adaptor Systems"; "Rails". We did not have an eye on the future, we were just lazy. Now is the time to fix that.

Anyway, depending on price, the V7 HyperLight and UltraLight will both be significantly lighter than most of the usual suspects mentioned. Here's a couple others I'd suggest looking at.

V7 HyperLight is 6.3 oz
V7 UltraLight is 8.3 oz
CMT UHPR Mod 1 is 10.0 oz
CMT UHPR Mod 2 is 10.2 oz
Lancer LCH5-ST is 10.2 oz
DD MFR M-LOK is 10.2 oz
V7 Enlightened is 10.4 oz
Griffin Armament Low-Pro RIGID is 10.5 oz
MI Combat Rail is 10.8 oz
KAC URX4 M-LOK is 11.3 oz

TexasAggie2005

05-28-18, 14:55

Where do you get that heat wrap stuff Aggie? Nice carbine BTW

Thank you.
Rawlings baseball bat grip tape. Cheap, easily reapplied. And it doesn't heat up too much in the Texas sun. Even Magpul covers get hot.

titsonritz

05-28-18, 15:03

Anyway, depending on price, the V7 HyperLight and UltraLight will both be significantly lighter than most of the usual suspects mentioned. Here's a couple others I'd suggest looking at.

Not a fan of handguards without anti-rotation tabs and being made of magnesium I'd be afraid of tearing the slots, one of the reasons the BCM did away with it in their KMR.

Defaultmp3

05-28-18, 15:19

Not a fan of handguards without anti-rotation tabs and being made of magnesium I'd be afraid of tearing the slots, one of the reasons the BCM did away with it in their KMR.They have the anti-rotation pin, which is arguably better. If you're getting someone else to do a pin and weld, it should be trivial to do a mod to the upper to utilize the pin. As for the Mg issue, I'm not totally sure that's such a big deal with the M-LOK standard, as it doesn't have the thin beveling needed to create the KeyMod slots, nor do we know if they're even using the exact same alloy as the original KMRs. That, and the UltraLight is 2099, anyway.

MQ105

05-28-18, 16:14

The ALGs & Geisseles are solid. The KMRs have some flex, particularly as they get longer; important if you run a rail-mounted laser. Also, for me, the smaller diameter, thinner material handguards heat up too much when run hard. To each his own.
If you do want smaller diameter, look at SLR (Ion lite). Near identical dimentions to the KMR, but stiffer.

rainman

05-28-18, 19:21

The ALGs & Geisseles are solid. The KMRs have some flex, particularly as they get longer; important if you run a rail-mounted laser. Also, for me, the smaller diameter, thinner material handguards heat up too much when run hard. To each his own.
If you do want smaller diameter, look at SLR (Ion lite). Near identical dimentions to the KMR, but stiffer.

Agreed; the Ion Lite is a very solid rail, reasonable weight, and a very nice install. Currently running a 15% Memorial Day sale...

http://www.slrrifleworks.com/

-Rainman

nightchief

05-28-18, 19:56

Take a look at the KAC URX4 MLOK:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-urx-4-m-lok-handguards-prod98031.aspx

Or the Hodge Defense wedgelok MLOK:
https://www.optactical.com/hodesywelora.html

Both are stiff, and have minimal flex

NC

Defaultmp3

05-28-18, 20:04

Take a look at the KAC URX4 MLOK:
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/ar-15-urx-4-m-lok-handguards-prod98031.aspx

Or the Hodge Defense wedgelok MLOK:
https://www.optactical.com/hodesywelora.html

Both are stiff, and have minimal flex

NCHuh, my reading comprehension sucks, totally missed that there was gonna be a PEQ in play. In that case, I would argue that the Hodge/Mega/Zev WedgeLock (although note that the Zev is 6061, compared to the Hodge/Mega being 7075), Hodge PinchLock, KAC URX4, and Geissele SMRs are the most obvious choices, due to deflection concerns.

The BCM MCMR is probably too light in construction if deflection of the PEQ is going to be a concern. The CMR will probably do much better, as it is much burlier, but it has a smaller barrel nut compared the choices above, which will again contribute to flex (an issued the MCMR shares). However, if deflection is not a major concern, as you don't plan on aiming the PEQ while loaded on a barrier or on a bipod, then those once again become extremely viable choices.

Hey guys...hope all is well with all of you. I want to address rail and barrel deflection. First off in my observations, rail and barrel deflection can come from various sources. What is deflection, to me it's when a constant load is being placed on the rail, and how much it moves under a load. Why is deflection important to you....to me, it's in the use of aiming devices such as lasers etc. What causes deflection....here is where it gets sketchy....so your results may vary.

Type of fitment of rail onto barrel nut.
Type of barrel nut and how long, and how much bearing surface it has to the rail.
Upper receiver, how tight the barrel extension goes into the upper, concentricy of face of upper, threads, torque value, heat, demential mass in the upper, etc...can be variables.
Type of fitment between the lower and upper.

Basically if one were to test the "flexibility" in a rail not attached to a barrel/upper, you would not likely see much flexibility to make any real difference.

If you see barrel deflection under a rail load, it's the upper flexing via the threads the nut is attached to.

You have to ask yourself, what is important to you in the way you use your carbine, and how much difference does it really make? Not everyone runs lasers, not everyone loads a bipod, and will a sling and or a barricade effect you enough in a dynamic environment.

I have tested mine, as well as others, we did great, but yet there are others out there who did great as well.

There is no standardized testing that I know about... so yet another variable ��

DD, Geissele, KAC... I've used them all, and all with good results.

Cheers, Jim Hodge

MSW

05-28-18, 20:19

My KMR has been good for a few years and I just replaced an NSR with an MCMR and I like it a lot. They’re not the only game in town, but I’d pick one of the two you mentioned. The G rails will probably maintain your zero better, though there’s a weight trade off and I haven’t actually seen any proof that a BCM rail will fail at that, minus anything crazy.

I won’t use ADCO though. I’ve got a thread on here from a few months ago that’s worth looking up where I got a bunch of alternative options to for shop services. I’ve only had one experience with each, but Retro Arms Works was far better than ADCO in every single way.

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+1 on Retro Arms Works. John Thomas does fast, accurate work. No affiliation, just a satisfied repeat customer. He does a great deal of A1/SP1 Type work, hence his company name, but he’s done other general work for me, like cropping barrels, FSB pinning, etc. Great guy!

beschatten

05-29-18, 16:33

I made the decision to only use Geissele SMRs a few years ago - it sure saved me a lot of time without having to keep up with industry trends and worry if things will work. I run all MK14s now and it's nice being able to keep things uniform. Lots of great brands listed here OP, pick a few and run with them to see what you like.

The Dumb Gun Collector

05-29-18, 17:58

Alright. I mailed it off today. I did go with ADCo, and I will report back.

1. 14.5 Socom barrel. I know a mid would have been preferable, but I got a good deal and those barrels have a great rep and are reasonably priced and a known quantity.
2. Getting the fsb shaved and reparked .
3. Getting the socom FH pinned and welded. I agree it is overkill, but whatever.
4. Getting ADCO to put it in my old colt upper.
5. Decided to go with the Geissle MK 14. I am defintrunning a peq so I wanted it to be as stiff as possible.

Yes I should have just bought one of Grant’s BCM NFA uppers and had the fh soldered on. But I love old” Vicky “ so I’m being irrational.

I’ll keep y’all posted
GHB

beschatten

05-29-18, 19:56