View Full Version : Need Help Finding a Sub MOA 11.5 or 12.5 Barrel (Moved)
It was mentioned my last post was in the wrong place so I'm posting here as this is the correct forum
I am Looking for parts for my next build and Need Help Finding a Sub MOA 11.5 or 12.5 Barrel.
I've heard that Centurion's 12.5 barrel is sub moa with 77gr and is properly ported but it seems they've stopped making them?
Also on the table is Daniel Defense's 12.5 but I've not run across as many people saying those are sub moa
AR Performance in 12.5 might be available in late summer but not sure how consistently they can be sub moa with 77gr
Faxon and Ballistic advantage don't seem to be quite there.
Would be nice if it was .625 as I already have an SLR6 but this is not a deal breaker. Decent weight (no bull barrels), Sub MOA with 77gr and properly gassed.
Sionics was mentioned as having a reduced gas port 11.5 and I have added that one to the list but no reports of sub moa with 77gr yet
Also mentioned was Larue Stealth 12 inch but reports of it being too gassy which might not be bad as I have ordered an SLR7
Good info but looking for a bit more feedback especially if anyone has more info on the Sionics performance with 77gr
Thanks
update - Brownells says the DD 12.5 specs are: .750" OD for the journal. .0595" Gas Port . 1.4 lbs.
that seems a bit small on the gas port or is that OK for carbine gas?
Furbyballer
05-28-18, 18:27
Dont let gas ports sway your decision. You can always change the gas flow with a brt tuned gas block. Ive used 2 now and they are awesome.
The DD will be a good shooter. Also look into a v7 stainless. I have 2 12.5in barrels from them and they have delivered sub moa.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Dont let gas ports sway your decision. You can always change the gas flow with a brt tuned gas block. Ive used 2 now and they are awesome.
The DD will be a good shooter. Also look into a v7 stainless. I have 2 12.5in barrels from them and they have delivered sub moa.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Thanks for the info. Do you have sub moa consistently with the DD 12.5's using 77gr?
Good lead on the V6 but those are a bit pricey vs DD et al and I am not needed a gas block included as I'd like to use my own.
Defaultmp3
05-28-18, 18:59
Triarc allegedly sells a good barrel. My buddy's have had sub-MOA with match factory ammo at 100 yards.
If you're willing to wait, Hodge barrels trickle out from time to time, and those are allegedly on par or slightly better than the Centurion Arms barrels.
Are you looking for a certain distance sub-moa barrel? Reason I'm asking is that a barrel which is sub moa at 100m might not be a sub minute gun at 300-400m, and especially 500-600m with 12.5"
Ballistic Advantage has a 1 moa guarantee on their barrels. However, I suspect you might have to go custom route for a guaranteed <1moa for a shorter barrel, something like Lilja or Rainer Arms Ultra Match, and etc. In any case you're looking at $500-600+ category for a match barrel.
I've had several of the BCM 11.5" configurations and have achieved sub -MOA precision which was repeatable, but only with tuned handloads. While they are proclaimed as 1 in 7 twist, my best results have been with bullets 60 grains and under... go figure.
Current configuration of SBR #2, 11.5" BCM ELW on Mega billet Giessle HiSpeed match Freedom Armory Dragoon direct thread (9.7 0u.) MagPul and BCM KMR.
https://i.imgur.com/XeNxuCz.jpg
HelloLarry
05-29-18, 11:36
I guess the silencer aids with the 1 MOA quest?
You want precision barrel performance without precision price. Tall order.
SMOS 12.5 will get you sub moa. Made from Shilen blanks. You can call and ask to not include gas block to reduce price.
My SMOS barrel is as precise as my Proof.
I guess the silencer aids with the 1 MOA quest?
No it doesn't alter the precision, only the POI. But it does make my life easier :-)
Most of my SBR’s wear a RDS, but I’ve thrown an ACOG on them with MOA shooting. My Colt 10.3 , 6945 is a MOA gun. I would go for SIONICS. I might try a few this Sunday and see what we can do.
PB
HelloLarry
05-30-18, 07:31
No it doesn't alter the precision, only the POI. But it does make my life easier :-)
It just seems to me a 12.5" barrelled AR would be pretty difficult to shoot 1" groups with no matter what barrel was used.
It just seems to me a 12.5" barrelled AR would be pretty difficult to shoot 1" groups with no matter what barrel was used.
Because of the stunning recoil of the 223?
Best bang for the buck is probably the Larue Stealth Barrel in 12". I have a 16" that is a laser, a little heavy but has repeatable shot 1/2 moa if I do my part.
Short barrels are generally as/more accurate than longer barrels, up to their velocity-limited/bullet stability range. (Harmonics, flex, etc.) Here are a few examples of what I consider real-world, practical accuracy. Keep in mind the 10 rd groups, the low/no magnification optic, the rest (magazine, bipod, etc.), the ammo, and, of course, the shooter. **The tgt labeled "prone unsupported" is inaccurate. I was resting on the magazine.**
The first is a DD chrome-lined gov't profile barrel cut to 10.75". M4SDII, BCM lower, Aero forged upper, Larue MBT trigger.
These are representative groups for this barrel, not hand-picked anomalies. I have several 10rd groups of Wolf Gold that are 1.5-1.6", but this set up will not do that every time.
Note the POIs for each ammo type. All groups were fired with the same zero. Interesting that some very different ammo types have the same/very similar zero @ 100. Others, of course, are quite different (see next post.)
>>In response to several inquiries: Yes, in my limited testing of 5 rd groups, the group size is notably smaller<<
This is a Sionics 11.5. BCM upper, same suppressor and lower as previous post. 4x optic. These are representative groups for this barrel, not hand-picked anomalies.
As a side note, I haven't found the Mk318 to be accurate from any barrel I have tried. Keep in mind that my lot is seconds and a sample size of one.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%208.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%208.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%207.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%207.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%206.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%206.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%204.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%204.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%2011.5%20pic1.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%2011.5%20pic1.jpg.html)
HelloLarry
05-30-18, 12:15
Because of the stunning recoil of the 223?
Tell me how you do it and include pictures.
It just seems to me a 12.5" barrelled AR would be pretty difficult to shoot 1" groups with no matter what barrel was used.
Why would it be more difficult?
This is a Sionics 11.5. BCM upper, same suppressor and lower as previous post. 4x optic. These are representative groups for this barrel, not hand-picked anomalies.
As a side note, I haven't found the Mk318 to be accurate from any barrel I have tried. Keep in mind that my lot is seconds and a sample size of one.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%208.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%208.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%207.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%207.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%206.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%206.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%204.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%204.jpg.html)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/mq105/Sionics%2011.5%20pic1.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/mq105/media/Sionics%2011.5%20pic1.jpg.html)
@mq105 - wow thanks for the groups. That is some valuable data.
I had an upper that absolutely hated 69gr and up. Looked like your groups on the MK318. Was sub moa on 55gr though. Supposedly 1/8 twist but I suspect it was closer to 1/9
Seems like the Sionics is a bit more picky in 11.5
The DD 10.5 seems to like the heavier rounds but does OK with 55gr too.
I am down to these barrels:
TriArc 12.5 (mid length) (unknown gas port) $260
Sionics RGP 11.5 (carbine) (.070 ?) $200
Daniel Defense 12.5 (carbine) (.0595 per Brownells which seems super small?) $275
Centurion Arms 12.5 LW (carbine) (.070?) $330
These are all around 1.4 lbs give or take .1lbs
but the Centurion Arms is lightest at 1lb 5.1oz which is about 2oz lighter.
But sub moa with 77gr is priority, then gas port though I will be using an SLR7 adjustable block
I really don't measure or shoot for groups with my short guns but I had a DD 12.5 barrel and shot it out after about 16K rounds (some in full auto). I replaced it with a Noveske 12.5 barrel and it is significantly more accurate and less gassy.
It just seems to me a 12.5" barrelled AR would be pretty difficult to shoot 1" groups with no matter what barrel was used.
There's no reason a 10.5/11.5/12.5 inch barrel can't be as precise as longer barrels.
Tell me how you do it and include pictures.
I was teasing, quoting a well known firearms instructor. As others have questioned, why would it it hard with a shorter barrel, in your opinion?
I think sub-2” 10rd groups with Wolf Gold is darn good (from the Sionics barrel.) This barrel shoots LC M855 sub 2” and ADI 69 SMKs into 1.25”. All 10rd groups. That is quite good, in my experience, for any barrel.
Also check out Criterion. They have a run of 12.5” hybrid contour barrels that will be ready in a week. They are known to be very accurate and durable.
@mq105 - wow thanks for the groups. That is some valuable data.
I had an upper that absolutely hated 69gr and up. Looked like your groups on the MK318. Was sub moa on 55gr though. Supposedly 1/8 twist but I suspect it was closer to 1/9
Seems like the Sionics is a bit more picky in 11.5
The DD 10.5 seems to like the heavier rounds but does OK with 55gr too.
I am down to these barrels:
TriArc 12.5 (mid length) (unknown gas port) $260
Sionics RGP 11.5 (carbine) (.070 ?) $200
Daniel Defense 12.5 (carbine) (.0595 per Brownells which seems super small?) $275
Centurion Arms 12.5 LW (carbine) (.070?) $330
These are all around 1.4 lbs give or take .1lbs
but the Centurion Arms is lightest at 1lb 5.1oz which is about 2oz lighter.
But sub moa with 77gr is priority, then gas port though I will be using an SLR7 adjustable block
HelloLarry
05-31-18, 06:48
There's no reason a 10.5/11.5/12.5 inch barrel can't be as precise as longer barrels.
Clamped in a machine rest, yes. From your hands, that is a little more problematic.
There are a couple reasons why a short barreled AR is harder to shoot than a long one, centering on weight. First off a 4lb trigger is over 70% the weight of a 5.5lb rifle, making it more sensitive to trigger technique then a 4lb trigger on a 10lb rifle. A variation in cheek pressure of 2lbs 12 oz is half the weight of that 5 1/2lb rifle compared to about 1/4 the weight of a 10lb rifle making the short rifle more sensitive to cheek pressure. Now think about shoulder pressure, grip pressure and pressure on the forearm - the effects are all magnified.
Those are some VERY good groups in the pictures, but there aren't any sub-MOA groups in those pictures from a barrel that I'd bet money would turn out sub-MOA from a machine rest. There's a reason accuracy competition favors heavy rifles.
I'm just asking a honest question - how do you wring the best accuracy from those little guns?
No doubt, in a static, set-position type competition the advantage goes to a heavier gun. Considering only the barrel's intrinsic accuracy potential, shorter is better.
The purpose of shorter barrels/guns is maneuverability, concealability, relative ease of carry, etc. For me, the only reason I shoot my SBRs for accuracy is to determine the capability of the system (gun, ammo, optic), removing as much shooter influence as practicable. It allows me to have realistic expectations of the complete weapon system - gun, ammo, optic, conditions, shooter.
For example, is it realistic for me to expect 2 MOA 10rd groups @ 100m from a barricade if I can only just achieve that accuracy level while "benched?" Similarly, if I'm shooting 5 MOA groups from the prone, but my system is capable of 1 MOA "benched", then I know I'm not doing my part from the prone.
HelloLarry
05-31-18, 08:15
Do the rules of your game require a sub-MOA carbine? Like shooting 1" targets at 100 yards?
I'm just kind of puzzled. For such a short, light rifle, I'd grab a chrome lined DD barrel and not worry about it as long as it could cut about 2 MOA.
We've been over something like this in Highpower and the conclusion is pretty much that there isn't 1 shooter in a 100 that can tell the difference between a 1 MOA gun and a 1/2 MOA gun. An engineer that goes by ChrisF did some math that is pretty convincing. I won a HP match the other day with a rifle that only shoots MOA on a good day. It's really a 1 1/2 to maybe 2 MOA gun.
But we still buy barrels that are good for 1/4 MOA even if none of us can shoot it! :D
Clamped in a machine rest, yes. From your hands, that is a little more problematic.
There are a couple reasons why a short barreled AR is harder to shoot than a long one, centering on weight. First off a 4lb trigger is over 70% the weight of a 5.5lb rifle, making it more sensitive to trigger technique then a 4lb trigger on a 10lb rifle. A variation in cheek pressure of 2lbs 12 oz is half the weight of that 5 1/2lb rifle compared to about 1/4 the weight of a 10lb rifle making the short rifle more sensitive to cheek pressure. Now think about shoulder pressure, grip pressure and pressure on the forearm - the effects are all magnified.
Those are some VERY good groups in the pictures, but there aren't any sub-MOA groups in those pictures from a barrel that I'd bet money would turn out sub-MOA from a machine rest. There's a reason accuracy competition favors heavy rifles.
I'm just asking a honest question - how do you wring the best accuracy from those little guns?
Your objections apply to rifles with different masses, not barrel lengths. The mechanics of shooting a shorter barreled rifle (or a rifle with less mass) are basically the same as shooting a longer barreled rifle (or a rifle with greater mass). Either way, the shooter has build good form and be consistent. Learn good shooting techniques and practice them.
Back in the late 80s, early 90s, pistols using rifle calibers became all the rage. The most common barrel lengths were 14 inches and shorter. Without buttstocks, shooters were getting well under 1 MOA groups out to 300 yards. If shooters back then could achieve groups that small without buttstocks or any kind of arm brace, shooters today can achieve good results with an SBR or arm brace equipped pistol.
Stop over thinking it and go shoot!
It just seems to me a 12.5" barrelled AR would be pretty difficult to shoot 1" groups with no matter what barrel was used.
Barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with precision. End of story!
"Also check out Criterion. They have a run of 12.5” hybrid contour barrels that will be ready in a week"
will these have 1/7twist? I've seen 12 and 12.5 Criterion that have 1/8 which I'd rather not do.
everready73
05-31-18, 19:45
"Also check out Criterion. They have a run of 12.5” hybrid contour barrels that will be ready in a week"
will these have 1/7twist? I've seen 12 and 12.5 Criterion that have 1/8 which I'd rather not do.
Compass lake could probably do a 1/7 Criterion. Give them a call, they make fantastic barrels
Mark and I took two SBR's out to try groups. We popped on a vortex 3-9 , not the best reticle for shooting groups for me, as it was hard to see. Anyway, my Colt 6945 10.3 shot MOA by both me and Mark with two each 5 round groups. The Sionics 11.5 shot 1.5 MOA , several groups. It was windy as hell and conditions much less than ideal, so these could be improved IMO. Both shot better than my FAXON 16 inch middy on average.
PB
We ran Marks handloads. 77 gr NOSLERS for the MOA stuff. We also ran a group or two of our 62 grain BTHP load which is known to be 1.5 MOA, and they shot 1.5 MOA so the guns were consistent.
We ran Marks handloads. 77 gr NOSLERS for the MOA stuff. We also ran a group or two of our 62 grain BTHP load which is known to be 1.5 MOA, and they shot 1.5 MOA so the guns were consistent.
Hi All- following up on this. I decided to try something different and ordered the 12.5 TriArc TRACK barrel with mid-gas. It just shipped out AFAIK and I'll update with pics and measurements when I get it
Then follow up with a range test. I'll have to order some 77gr IMI Razor core. Hopeful it comes back instock at the promo price again...
Furbyballer
06-19-18, 18:51
Hi All- following up on this. I decided to try something different and ordered the 12.5 TriArc TRACK barrel with mid-gas. It just shipped out AFAIK and I'll update with pics and measurements when I get it
Then follow up with a range test. I'll have to order some 77gr IMI Razor core. Hopeful it comes back instock at the promo price again...Awesome. Ive been eyeing that barrel for awhile now as a candidate for my next build.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Defaultmp3
06-19-18, 20:34
I was gonna say, if you had the patience to weight a bit more, the Hodge 12.5" is available for pre-order, if you got the budget: https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/rifle-parts-components/ar-15-upper-receiver/barrels-gas-blocks-muzzle-devices/hodge-12-5-barrel.html
Has anyone actually bought and measured a dd 12.5? I wouldn’t trust brownells measurements. Could’ve easily gotten copied over from something else.
It it’s really that small, I’d prolly order one today and sell my other 12.5 barres.
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Ok - I received and built up my TriArc (Feddersen blank) barrel. 12.5 mid gas.
I measured the gas port with my OriginCal (certified) but it's not the best way to measure as it's not the exact diameter due to the offset tips of the internal?
Anyway - I got .073 and .075 measuring twice.
My SLR7 Sentry Ti gas block slipped right on
The barrel was pre-dimpled through the nitriding which was surprising. I'll need to grease that dimple to prevent rust right?
Weight was right at 662 (1 lb 7.35 oz) which is 23.3 oz
Heavier than my Spikes/FN 11.5 pencil which came in around 17.496oz. The TriArc looks like an HBAR next to the Spikes/FN pencil LOL
I have Reman Black Hills 77gr OTM, 55gr IMI and 62g MagTech right now. If anybody has some favorite commercial ammo they'd like me to test I'd be amenable.
I'm planning on ordering some IMI 69gr RazorCore (77gr is OS) and some Speer Gold Dot LE 75gr SP unless someone says otherwise?
Info from TriArc site
Length 12.5"
Material 4150V grade Milspec B-11595E Chromium-Molybdenum-Vanadium (CrMoV)
Profile TRACK
Finish Nitrocarburizing ( BLACKNITRIDE™ )
Extension Finish Np3®
Gas System Mid-Length
Gas Block Journal .750" Diameter w/ 1" Length
Twist Rate 1.7"
Muzzle 1/2x28 Threaded
Weight 1.37 Lbs
Other Info Barrels are turned on centers and never chopped down from longer lengths
Patent Number WO 2013074132 A1
Black Hills OTM 77grain stuff is the best factory ammo in our experience.
PB
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