View Full Version : 9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?
Klingkong251
05-28-18, 20:34
Instead of comparing a 9mm Subgun to an SBR cambered in 556 in the role of home defense/room clearing, I'd like to know what you guys think in terms of using a suppressed Subgun in that role. More specifically, why or why it isn't viable for that role. I see a lot of people saying that a 9mm Subgun is nothing but a range toy and with the rising popularity, it's hard to imagine that since it reigned supreme for so long. Again, I'm specifically asking about a 9mm Subgun, not comparing it to a 556.
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Defaultmp3
05-28-18, 20:43
Viable? I mean, it'll get the job done. It just simply isn't going to be as effective as a true rifle caliber. A .38 snubbie is a viable home defense gun for the average person, but that doesn't mean that a Glock 17 with a WML isn't a better choice, which in turn is superseded by a suppressed PCC generally, which is going to be outmatched by a rifle.
AFAIK, historically, the SMGs got the nod for CQB because they were more reliable the old short rifles; once the shorties got reliable enough, the SMGs got replaced.
1/4/14
As many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice for home defense.
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1744/28548058388_b75059c852_o.jpg
Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…
In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if multiple criminals were assaulting me, if a precision shot was required, if the assailant was wearing body armor, in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun. In addition, of the shoulder fired weapons commonly used for self-defense, shotguns are the most difficult to effectively employ and require the most training to properly use.
Most citizens would do well to follow the lead of LE agencies in their locale and pick similar weapons to what LE feels is prudent and necessary for defensive use against the criminals in that jurisdiction. Often times these days that is 9 mm or .40 pistols with a 15-17 round magazines and AR15's with 30 rd magazines.
Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 "Garand" rifle, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
It could work, but there are things that could work better. I’ve considered it for my wife, because it could be lighter and shorter, but I’ve heard they still recoil about as much as an AR. My biggest consideration reviles around how quickly I (or she) could get rounds on target.
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I own multiple 5.56 rifles and 9mm PCC.
A 5.56 rifle is what sits besides my bed. I do however carry a 9mm in a back pack for when I need a covert shoulder fired weapon.
Viable? Yes, certainly. A baseball is probably viable. I'm not quite sure why you'd phrase the question like that;if the whole point is viable defense, and if we know thing A is viable, but there's some question about the viability of thing B, then every point about B is essentially a comparison to A. No?
Anyways, confusion aside, I wouldn't hesitate to use a PCC to defend my house.
shadowrider
05-29-18, 08:38
I built a 9mm just for this. Colt SMG mags. It eats every single HP load I've ever tried in it but it particularly likes the unicorn +P+ Ranger T. The only malfunction I've ever had on it was from Rem 115 JHP bulk from Walmart. It just refuses to run that stuff. If you use Colt pattern mags get the Maglula. Those springs are no joke.
While this argument only has a small window of validity;
Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments.
for example, short of bedrooms to keep in mind, our closest neighbors is through a set of thick woods on all sides of our property. The likelihood of penetrating an exterior wall and hitting someone else's property is severely low.
A 5.56 is a stronger round, efficient, and has some known reliable expansion ammo.
With that being said, if I lived in a townhouse, surrounded by people on all sides, a subgun would probably be more in my favor. It's still able and capable of punching through shite, but not as much as the 5.56.
There are some arguements you could apply based on your environment. But arguments based on comparison of the two, as weapon systems? Nah, the Short AR will out beat it every time. Hell even a true supressed .300 Blk would be an amazing option in regards to SBR with a can.
Achilles11B
05-29-18, 09:42
I keep short-barreled AR under the bed for me. The girlfriend has my CZ Scorpion under her side of the bed. The AR may be better but the Scorpion is better for her and that’s all I care about. A reliable and accurate 9mm carbine being utilized by someone properly trained on it is perfectly viable as a HD option.
I think a 9MM carbine is a good option. I have a USGI M1 Carbine for that role, so never thought to get a PCC for HD. I mean, many people use 9MM, .45 and other caliber pistols for HD, so a PCC would be fine for most people's needs. It is always good to have an AR back up within reach though.
While this argument only has a small window of validity;
Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments.
You realize the 9mm more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56 yes? Seems counter intuitive, but one should not choose 9mm for that reason.
https://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/
Instead of comparing a 9mm Subgun to an SBR cambered in 556 in the role of home defense/room clearing, I'd like to know what you guys think in terms of using a suppressed Subgun in that role. More specifically, why or why it isn't viable for that role. I see a lot of people saying that a 9mm Subgun is nothing but a range toy and with the rising popularity, it's hard to imagine that since it reigned supreme for so long. Again, I'm specifically asking about a 9mm Subgun, not comparing it to a 556.
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How are you defining viable? If a 9mm handgun is viable for HD, how could a 9mm subgun not be? The Q is, it is the best choice for the job given other options today? It's generally best to ignore what "a lot of people" say on such topics.
shadowrider
05-29-18, 11:16
In my case I'm running unsuppressed so the 9mm is a LOT more "palatable" in regards to firing inside the house. With substantial hearing loss already it's definitely a consideration, at least for me.
You realize the 9mm more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56 yes? Seems counter intuitive, but one should not choose 9mm for that reason.
https://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/
I did not know, but after your rhetoric, I could see the tumbling/fragmenting concept occurring when hitting a hard(er) surface such as drywall or beams with 5.56.
I was still under the impression that frangible 9MM would reduce a lot of that.
Either way, I did not apply the fragmentation concept to those ballistics analyzing and am now eating my foot.
Always humbling when encountered, thanks for clarifying where that logic is flawed.
I did not know, but after your rhetoric, I could see the tumbling/fragmenting concept occurring when hitting a hard(er) surface such as drywall or beams with 5.56.
I was still under the impression that frangible 9MM would reduce a lot of that.
Either way, I did not apply the fragmentation concept to those ballistics analyzing and am now eating my foot.
Always humbling when encountered, thanks for clarifying where that logic is flawed.
It's a very common misconception that's still open to debate, and of course bullet types and choices play a part in all that, but it appears the 5.56 is so light and moving so fast, it tends to fly apart on contact with hard surfaces commonly found in a house. As far as frangibles, that's a whole other topic but it's my understanding frangible 9MM are recommended by no one who studies terminal ballistics as a science as they tend to perform very poorly regardless of the claims made of "magic metalo metal hybrid bullets" and the like being marketed. For clarity of this discussion, we are talking about well known and accepted brands/designs in 9mm and or 5.56.
hotrodder636
05-29-18, 12:11
In my experience, the majority of people I know, including shooters are unaware that pistol rounds are more likely to pentrate than a 5.56. They don’t understand how that is possible and ask “why”. I use the Ferrari through a brick wall vs a truck or semi through a brick wall—which loses energy faster and will travel the shortest distance after going through the wall.
You realize the 9mm more likely to over penetrate than the 5.56 yes? Seems counter intuitive, but one should not choose 9mm for that reason.
https://www.tactical-life.com/exclusives/9mm-vs-223/
In my experience, the majority of people I know, including shooters are unaware that pistol rounds are more likely to pentrate than a 5.56. They don’t understand how that is possible and ask “why”. I use the Ferrari through a brick wall vs a truck or semi through a brick wall—which loses energy faster and will travel the shortest distance after going through the wall.
Per above, it's counter intuitive unless you start getting a tad more granular on it, such as your example, but I also find some simply refuse to change their mind over it even when most evidence points to it.
hotrodder636
05-29-18, 12:21
My example usually changes minds of those I am around since most of the people Ihave these discussions with have heavy engineering and physics backgrounds, so they pick up the physics of it. Just not something that on the surface is intuitive. Specialty rounds are obviously the exception.
Per above, it's counter intuitive unless you start getting a tad more granular on it, such as your example, but I also find some simply refuse to change their mind over it even when most evidence points to it.
It's a very common misconception that's still open to debate, and of course bullet types and choices play a part in all that, but it appears the 5.56 is so light and moving so fast, it tends to fly apart on contact with hard surfaces commonly found in a house. As far as frangibles, that's a whole other topic but it's my understanding frangible 9MM are recommended by no one who studies terminal ballistics as a science as they tend to perform very poorly regardless of the claims made of "magic metalo metal hybrid bullets" and the like being marketed. For clarity of this discussion, we are talking about well known and accepted brands/designs in 9mm and or 5.56.
Thanks for the breakdown;
I had forgotten about that piece of physics when it comes to terminal ballistics.
It's a weird world of science, just glad we are able to discuss it openly and give some corrections. I can assure you, the concept isn't lost on me, I was just applying bad logic to the analytical piece of my mind on this topic.
Nonetheless, I also wasn't aware that frangible ammo was regard with some ilk. I suppose that's why I have only ever seen them, primarily, used in shoot houses.
I have used both for real, they both work. However your chance of success in the shortest period of time will always be on the side of the 5.56. Have both calibers had the proverbial 1 shot stop of course. But a rifle round is just so much more powerful and destructive on humans'.
Thanks for the breakdown;
I had forgotten about that piece of physics when it comes to terminal ballistics.
It's a weird world of science, just glad we are able to discuss it openly and give some corrections. I can assure you, the concept isn't lost on me, I was just applying bad logic to the analytical piece of my mind on this topic.
Nonetheless, I also wasn't aware that frangible ammo was regard with some ilk. I suppose that's why I have only ever seen them, primarily, used in shoot houses.
Have fun browsing here:
https://www.theboxotruth.com
Of particular interest:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
Have fun browsing here:
https://www.theboxotruth.com
Of particular interest:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
Chapter one has already provided a substantial amount of education on the topic.
Thanks, sir. A plethora of information here. I believe I have found articles on here from google, but never fully perused. That sure will change.
Klingkong251
05-29-18, 15:14
How are you defining viable? If a 9mm handgun is viable for HD, how could a 9mm subgun not be? The Q is, it is the best choice for the job given other options today? It's generally best to ignore what "a lot of people" say on such topics.You kind of touched on why I asked if it's viable. It seems that a lot of people have the opinion that the 9mm Subgun is nothing more than a range toy, but those same people will carry a 9mm pistol for self defense. We all know that in most instances, a 556 SBR will out perform a 9mm which is why I was trying to take the comparisons out of the equation and focus on if the Subgun alone is adequate for home defense. Tac teams used subguns for decades with success and it seems that popular opinion is that they have become inadequate all of a sudden which is a mindset I just don't understand. I was just trying to get everyone else's opinion on if you'd feel confident using it in a home defense scenario without stirring up the "rifle caliber beats pistol caliber" argument. I have a 10.5 inch 556 and a 5.5 inch suppressed 9mm AR. For a home defense scenario, I'm grabbing the 9mm.
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You kind of touched on why I asked if it's viable. It seems that a lot of people have the opinion that the 9mm Subgun is nothing more than a range toy, but those same people will carry a 9mm pistol for self defense. We all know that in most instances, a 556 SBR will out perform a 9mm which is why I was trying to take the comparisons out of the equation and focus on if the Subgun alone is adequate for home defense. Tac teams used subguns for decades with success and it seems that popular opinion is that they have become inadequate all of a sudden which is a mindset I just don't understand. I was just trying to get everyone else's opinion on if you'd feel confident using it in a home defense scenario without stirring up the "rifle caliber beats pistol caliber" argument. I have a 10.5 inch 556 and a 5.5 inch suppressed 9mm AR. For a home defense scenario, I'm grabbing the 9mm.
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The meat eaters were putting two into the squash of terrorists and non for decades with those range toys, so a moot issue there me thinks. As others have said in this thread, the 5.56 has essentially replaced the subgun due to similar sized package with improved performance etc. That does not defacto make the sub gun not viable for HD, in my non professional opinion.
For decades the elite units of the IDF and also the most elite unit in Israel Yamam, was dispatching terrorist with 9mm ball ammo. If you go back far enough it was with full sized Uzi, then later with mini and micro's.
We never sweated it, when a rifle was the right tool it was used. Today the right tool for most of this wet work is the Colt Commando. But for covert stuff a closed bolt mini Uzi works great.
HardToHandle
05-29-18, 18:40
The meat eaters were putting two into the squash of terrorists and non for decades with those range toys, so a moot issue there me thinks. As others have said in this thread, the 5.56 has essentially replaced the subgun due to similar sized package with improved performance etc. That does not defacto make the sub gun not viable for HD, in my non professional opinion.
I have not seen the oft-referenced Panama MP-5SD concerns brought up in this thread yet... There is a special value in the lower pressure of the 9mm cartridge, which results in a less powerful, but also much less loud report.
Mr. Goodtimes
05-29-18, 19:42
Instead of comparing a 9mm Subgun to an SBR cambered in 556 in the role of home defense/room clearing, I'd like to know what you guys think in terms of using a suppressed Subgun in that role. More specifically, why or why it isn't viable for that role. I see a lot of people saying that a 9mm Subgun is nothing but a range toy and with the rising popularity, it's hard to imagine that since it reigned supreme for so long. Again, I'm specifically asking about a 9mm Subgun, not comparing it to a 556.
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Well common since says.... If a 9mm Glock 19 is an excellent choice for home defense why the hell isn’t a 9mm sub gun? It literally shoots the exact same bullet, except out of an easier to handle platform....
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Well common since says.... If a 9mm Glock 19 is an excellent choice for home defense why the hell isn’t a 9mm sub gun? It literally shoots the exact same bullet, except out of an easier to handle platform....
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Is a Glock 19 an excellent choice for home defense?
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Klingkong251
05-29-18, 20:13
I believe a 9mm round is adequate for that senario, yes. My point was just that, people seem to disregard a PCC for anything other than a range gun. I just wanted to see what the general consensus on this forum was. I never understood why many view as such. Cops shoot and kill suspects all the time with 9mm handguns so why would the PCC not be good enough?
Is a Glock 19 an excellent choice for home defense?
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Well common since says.... If a 9mm Glock 19 is an excellent choice for home defense why the hell isn’t a 9mm sub gun? It literally shoots the exact same bullet, except out of an easier to handle platform....
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I would not classify any handgun as being an excellent choice for defending my life, it is a necessary choice that life in the USA mandates. A 9mmPCC/subgun is a better choice due to it being shoulder fired and easier to shoot faster and accurately. Plus if it has a longer than handgun barrel you can get better ballistics, i.e. 7.5" barrel on mini Uzi.
But having used both of those weapons above for real, if given a choice and the mission isn't covert. Then use a rifle, none better that you can carry with you. Unless you count a radio with an Apache on stand by.
Not only is a 9mm subgun or PCC that goes 100 to 300 fps faster (depending on the load) viable compared a 9mm pistol which is also viable, it is preferred by many due to its minimal noise, flash, and concussion while indoors compared to a rifle.
It's funny how some discount it. It goes to show how some know nothing about ballistics. How is it that a 9mm has a proven record on the street yet when through a subgun or PCC, it is just a toy? From a 10 inch barrel, it has the velocity of a .357 Sig.
Pistols are easy to maneuver.
Short Rifles have better terminal ballistics, and offer better performance(faster, more accurate followups).
A PCC is in the middle. Rifle handling and shooting attribules with pistol terminal performance.
I think most people go rifle cartridge since youre already commited to the size, why not-outside of niche scenarios.
To sum it up: rifle>PCC>pistol. So yes, PCC is viable.
Assuming no armor and full auto, the subgun might have an edge- but thats going out if my lane a bit. MP5 vs G36c both can be held on target FA but not enough experience to say which recoils less.
In the right hands a 9mm sub-gun is a very effective weapon at CQB distances. In open terrain, outside of a structure, where a shot has to be made at more than 80 meters, a rifle caliber would be a better option.
A long time ago we left full auto behind for anti terror work. We found much better hits and only a little slower when using semi auto.
hotrodder636
05-29-18, 23:01
Interesting...the more you know...
Have fun browsing here:
https://www.theboxotruth.com
Of particular interest:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
Chapter one has already provided a substantial amount of education on the topic.
Thanks, sir. A plethora of information here. I believe I have found articles on here from google, but never fully perused. That sure will change.
Defaultmp3
05-29-18, 23:02
I believe a 9mm round is adequate for that senario, yes. My point was just that, people seem to disregard a PCC for anything other than a range gun. I just wanted to see what the general consensus on this forum was. I never understood why many view as such. Cops shoot and kill suspects all the time with 9mm handguns so why would the PCC not be good enough?.22 LR has killed plenty of folks, too... doesn't mean it's a great choice for self-defense. LEOs use pistols because of the convenience factor, and that it's a good enough trade-off between portability and capability. In a home defense situation, portability isn't an issue, so I don't want merely "adequate", I want to stack the deck in my advantage as best I can. Besides, what up side does a PCC have over a standard rifle caliber long gun? The only thing I can think of is hearing protection, which is rendered mostly moot if you have a can. Size is pretty meh, it's really a training matter for the most part, and depending on your needs, may not even be relevant (e.g., no kids, so you can just hunker down in your bedroom).
The PCCs/SMGs have become viewed as toys because, as MegademiC noted, there isn't too much of a size differential between them and a rifle caliber long gun, yet the capabilities of the rifle rounds far exceed that of a pistol caliber round. Thus, outside of super-niche roles where very inch matters due to concealability concerns, there is no reason to utilize a PCC/SMG for duty/self-defense.
A can isn't always available depending on the state you live in and some just don't want to be placed on a list to obtain one if they can get one. It also adds considerable length to a platform that'll hinder mobility in tight spaces unless you SBR it which some can't or won't for the same reasons listed above that pertain to the can itself.
On top of that if you use subsonic ammo it behaves the same as a pistol round because the velocity is down to the point where it no longer acts like a rifle where stretch cavities become permanent as seen with projectiles that go over 2000 fps. It'll just go through and through with the the wound the same size as the projectile itself whether it expands or not.
And if one uses an AR pistol in a rifle caliber with supersonic ammo to bypass those SBR regulations or government lists, the flash and concussion is even greater compared to a pistol calibered carbine of the same length due to the unburned powder. .
In a 9mm for example the velocity from a PCC with a 10 to 16 inch barrel at 100 yards is the same velocity as such from a 3 to 4 inch barrelled pistol at point blank range from the muzzle. It'll shoot you just as dead and just as accurate within a few MOA from 0 to 100 yards without all the negatives. Within self defense distances it's very deadly if aimed center mass where vitals are. It serves the purpose while taming the negatives of a rifle caliber in enclosed spaces without the use of personnel protective equipment.
A PCC is nothing to sneeze and serves a purpose. It also gives you the ability to share the same ammo and magazines as your pistol or your patrner's pistol.
A can isn't always available depending on the state you live in and some just don't want to be placed on a list to obtain one if they can get one. It also adds considerable length to a platform that'll hinder mobility in tight spaces unless you SBR it which some can't or won't for the same reasons listed above that pertain to the can itself.
On top of that if you use subsonic ammo it behaves the same as a pistol round because the velocity is down to the point where it no longer acts like a rifle where stretch cavities become permanent as seen with projectiles that go over 2000 fps. It'll just go through and through with the the wound the same size as the projectile itself whether it expands or not.
And if one uses an AR pistol in a rifle caliber with supersonic ammo to bypass those SBR regulations or government lists, the flash and concussion is even greater compared to a pistol calibered carbine of the same length due to the unburned powder. .
In a 9mm for example the velocity from a PCC with a 10 to 16 inch barrel at 100 yards is the same velocity as such from a 3 to 4 inch barrelled pistol at point blank range from the muzzle. It'll shoot you just as dead and just as accurate within a few MOA from 0 to 100 yards without all the negatives. Within self defense distances it's very deadly if aimed center mass where vitals are. It serves the purpose while taming the negatives of a rifle caliber in enclosed spaces without the use of personnel protective equipment.
A PCC is nothing to sneeze and serves a purpose. It also gives you the ability to share the same ammo and magazines as your pistol or your patrner's pistol.
... and to add even more to the mix, a 300blk subsonic, with the right loads should offer terminal ballistics, flash and handling somewhere between a PCC and sbr, based on gel tests ive seen.
A rifle bullet that is no longer moving at over 2000 fps is no longer a rifle bullet.
https://homedefensegun.net/300-blackout/
A rifle bullet that is no longer moving at over 2000 fps is no longer a rifle bullet.
https://homedefensegun.net/300-blackout/
2000fps is the “range” the transition occurs at, larger frontal area can move it (shotgun slugs cause tc and are not moving 2000fps). But thats only extreme cases and not really applicable, and i agree with your statement in general.
The main difference with 300blk and specific load (i think its lehigh defense, most others perform more like pistol rounds) is the expansion, they open up very wide more like a broadhead and offer significantly better terminal performance than 9mm but not as good as a rifle(or supersonic 300blk)...and you are guving up armor penetration as the article points out.
2000fps is the “range” the transition occurs at, larger frontal area can move it (shotgun slugs cause tc and are not moving 2000fps). But thats only extreme cases and not really applicable, and i agree with your statement in general.
The main difference with 300blk and specific load (i think its lehigh defense, most others perform more like pistol rounds) is the expansion, they open up very wide more like a broadhead and offer significantly better terminal performance than 9mm but not as good as a rifle(or supersonic 300blk)...and you are guving up armor penetration as the article points out.
Those Lehigh bullets are the bee's knees. No question. But most others don't perform that way and barely expand while pinholing through. I guess if you stuck to those you'd be golden.
I own a MP5 and would have no problem and confidence of using it for HD, however I usually have a 10.3 SBR in 556 to do the dirty work. Colt 6945 seems to be my first choice as of late.
PB
Those Lehigh bullets are the bee's knees. No question. But most others don't perform that way and barely expand while pinholing through. I guess if you stuck to those you'd be golden.
Per usual, picking the right load for the job is half the battle, no pun intended.
Per usual, picking the right load for the job is half the battle, no pun intended.
Agreed. Now if you use a 9mm Lehigh 65 gr +P loaded by Underwood out of a 16 inch barrel, it'll go 2100 fps. Don't know if concussion becomes an issue indoors since all the power would be burnt up in the barrel but there should be no flash. I'm not saying it's better than a real rifle but I'm curious what it'll do in a body.
https://youtu.be/9eJqi1Vrdlw
This isn't really that hard, mission is what should drive your choice.
Everyday protect in the USA that you can carry on your person easily and in most case concealed, easy choice pistol.
Weapon concealed in your vehicle or inside your home, easy choice rifle.
Weapon that you can carry in a small bag and bring into action very quickly and you need a large round count, easy choice SMG/PCC .
This isn't really that hard, mission is what should drive your choice.
Everyday protect in the USA that you can carry on your person easily and in most case concealed, easy choice pistol.
Weapon concealed in your vehicle or inside your home, easy choice rifle.
Weapon that you can carry in a small bag and bring into action very quickly and you need a large round count, easy choice SMG/PCC .
Anddd....there it is.
Later this year myself and two associates when time allows are wanting to go out and test the 9mm Lehigh 65 gr +P, and also the same round in .357 sig. My two buddies came from a Tier 1 background in the USA, all of us have decades of having been there. So it will be interesting if these rounds at 2100fps out to 100 meters perform with rifle like performance.
If these rounds perform like a rifle, this would be a game changer. No they will not replace rifles in the field. But it might change things back to SMG for covert missions, rather than chasing the smaller rifle for these missions. I am not a fan of very short rifles, they have 2 downsides. Major blast and in the same space as 1 rifle mag takes up you can put 2 SMG mags. In my experience if a covert mission goes bad, you tend to use a lot of ammo.
DarkTemplars
06-18-18, 21:20
I think that the PCC with good ammo is viable for home defense. But, considering that whatever weapon you use in a self defense situation is probably going to be confiscated, I would leave the can off. Plus, I would want the noise so the neighbors hear it for those times you may be alone. It gives another source of a 911 call to get the cops moving.
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MountainRaven
06-18-18, 22:47
I think that the PCC with good ammo is viable for home defense. But, considering that whatever weapon you use in a self defense situation is probably going to be confiscated, I would leave the can off. Plus, I would want the noise so the neighbors hear it for those times you may be alone. It gives another source of a 911 call to get the cops moving.
You think it's better to suffer permanent hearing damage than to have a can temporarily in an evidence locker?
Well, OK, then.
It could work, but there are things that could work better. I’ve considered it for my wife, because it could be lighter and shorter, but I’ve heard they still recoil about as much as an AR. My biggest consideration reviles around how quickly I (or she) could get rounds on target.
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My 9mm and .40 carbines kick more than my 5.56 guns. It’s not a huge difference but it’s noticeable.
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I built a 9mm just for this. Colt SMG mags. It eats every single HP load I've ever tried in it but it particularly likes the unicorn +P+ Ranger T. The only malfunction I've ever had on it was from Rem 115 JHP bulk from Walmart. It just refuses to run that stuff. If you use Colt pattern mags get the Maglula. Those springs are no joke.
I agree the mag loader is a must!
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MadAngler1
06-19-18, 11:06
Does anyone have any data on the terminal performance and risk of overpenetration when using Federal HST or Winchester PDX rounds out of a 16”, 9 mm Colt AR? My suspicion is that the ballistics have improved compared to data 10-15 years ago.
I rather not use a NFA SBR in 5.56 NATO with a suppressor for home defense unless I had to for obvious reasons. A 9 mm or 45 ACP PCC with a 16” barrel with the right loads may be a good alternative that will get the job done.
Does anyone have any data on the terminal performance and risk of overpenetration when using Federal HST or Winchester PDX rounds out of a 16”, 9 mm Colt AR? My suspicion is that the ballistics have improved compared to data 10-15 years ago.
I rather not use a NFA SBR in 5.56 NATO with a suppressor for home defense unless I had to for obvious reasons. A 9 mm or 45 ACP PCC with a 16” barrel with the right loads may be a good alternative that will get the job done.
What are those obvious reasons? I'm not clear. Per the thread, that seems exactly the set up most recommend, which not to say a sub gun is not a viable option.
MadAngler1
06-22-18, 10:12
What are those obvious reasons? I'm not clear. Per the thread, that seems exactly the set up most recommend, which not to say a sub gun is not a viable option.
I have no desire to lose a NFA item (SBR) in a police investigation, let alone have that used against you in a civil lawsuit. I guess I’m being paranoid, as ideally, a suppressed SBR is the best home defense weapon you could have (300 blk out or 5.56 NATO). Losing a $2-3k item costs less than losing your life of course.
Regardless, I would still like to see terminal performance data from a Colt AR9 in 16” with Federal HST or the like. If I get time, maybe I can try setting up my own test, but work and family prevents me from shooting much at all right now.
Does anyone have any data on the terminal performance and risk of overpenetration when using Federal HST or Winchester PDX rounds out of a 16”, 9 mm Colt AR? My suspicion is that the ballistics have improved compared to data 10-15 years ago.
I don’t have any “data”, but consider that many 9mm JHP’s penetrate less, not more when velocity goes up. This is because they open earlier and larger. I would suggest looking at heavier varieties first, because their velocities change less with barrel length, thus keeping them closer to the manufacturer’s intended impact velocity. When I have a 9mm SBR next to my bed, I fill the mag with a 135-147gr load that tends to penetrate close to 18” from a service pistol.
Will,
I’m with Madangler. For me I would hate to lose a two stamp gun that is likely a $3,000 investment even in a “good” shoot which will help portray me as a gun nut out to kill someone in a civil suit. I’m unwilling to go a pistol brace route for the same reason. I would rock a braced Scorpion with 147’s for home defense if I thought it wouldn’t hurt me later.
The idea that a civil suit will go against you if using a scary SBR with silencer still applies for a 9mm sub gun. The average person will see any “tactical” gun as a man killer. If you are concerned about this, then you better stick to a pistol or wood stock shotgun.
9mm is fine for home defense. But my honest opinion is a good shotgun that you could easily point and shoot without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills is best for the LARGE majority. Unless you are some nerves of steel badass.
*Edit* I have a 5.56 pistol beside my bed for home defense, but I am in law enforcement and train/shoot often. If I were married and my wife had to possibly defend our home, it would be a shotgun.
Fine motor skills is nonsense. I have seen even so-called experience people induce a malfunction with a shotgun and that wasn't even a life or death situation. A properly built AR will still perform better in the hands of someone with a minimal amount of training than a shotgun.
The idea that a civil suit will go against you if using a scary SBR with silencer still applies for a 9mm sub gun. The average person will see any “tactical” gun as a man killer. If you are concerned about this, then you better stick to a pistol or wood stock shotgun.
9mm is fine for home defense. But my honest opinion is a good shotgun that you could easily point and shoot without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills is best for the LARGE majority. Unless you are some nerves of steel badass.
*Edit* I have a 5.56 pistol beside my bed for home defense, but I am in law enforcement and train/shoot often. If I were married and my wife had to possibly defend our home, it would be a shotgun.
Well I must say, that you must have the best hearing in the world, because I can't imagine neighbors being able to relay to someone where gunfire came from when it is indoors. In fact it would be pretty amazing to be honest considering that even gunfire outdoors that is relatively close would be hard to detect.
I could care less what gets confiscated and for how long, if I can wake up the next morning and breath air.
I think that the PCC with good ammo is viable for home defense. But, considering that whatever weapon you use in a self defense situation is probably going to be confiscated, I would leave the can off. Plus, I would want the noise so the neighbors hear it for those times you may be alone. It gives another source of a 911 call to get the cops moving.
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Fine motor skills is nonsense. I have seen even so-called experience people induce a malfunction with a shotgun and that wasn't even a life or death situation. A properly built AR will still perform better in the hands of someone with a minimal amount of training than a shotgun.
I’m glad you saw that one time, but it doesn’t make fine motor skills nonsense. I don’t even know what to say to that comment. If we are basing things on anecdotal evidence, I have seen LEO qualifying with shotguns and ARs for years with MANY more induced AR malfunctions.
It’s all just opinion anyway. My opinion is that a shotgun is better in the hands of the majority of people (not everyone).
And I just saw your other comment about hearing. You are giving some bad info today brother. Do you know how many times police he called to scenes due to people hearing gunshots? Some of you guys need to get out of the boxes you’ve built.
Will,
I’m with Madangler. For me I would hate to lose a two stamp gun that is likely a $3,000 investment even in a “good” shoot which will help portray me as a gun nut out to kill someone in a civil suit. I’m unwilling to go a pistol brace route for the same reason. I would rock a braced Scorpion with 147’s for home defense if I thought it wouldn’t hurt me later.
Using the best tool for the job to survive in your given situation and level of training should be the #1 priority I'd expect. Losing investment preferable to losing life. Quality sub guns are not inexpensive and cheap sub guns not worth risking your life over. With modern choices it seems the consensus is, a sub gun is not the optimal choice per se, but defiantly viable with the various caveats offered through this thread.
The idea that a civil suit will go against you if using a scary SBR with silencer still applies for a 9mm sub gun. The average person will see any “tactical” gun as a man killer. If you are concerned about this, then you better stick to a pistol or wood stock shotgun.
9mm is fine for home defense. But my honest opinion is a good shotgun that you could easily point and shoot without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills is best for the LARGE majority. Unless you are some nerves of steel badass.
*Edit* I have a 5.56 pistol beside my bed for home defense, but I am in law enforcement and train/shoot often. If I were married and my wife had to possibly defend our home, it would be a shotgun.
I was tracking 'till then...
I was tracking 'till then...
Most of the forum members here don’t fit into the “large majority”. I respect everyone’s opinions, I’m just telling you what my personal experience is. Ymmv
Most of the forum members here don’t fit into the “large majority”. I respect everyone’s opinions, I’m just telling you what my personal experience is. Ymmv
I'm not an SME on the topic, but I'm unclear why a shotgun is easy to point and shoot "without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills" compared to an AR, and as you can see from SME comments, the whole fine motor skill aspect in this context seems to be downplayed in a big way.
Telling Iraqgunz, a guy who has some BTDT on top of his BTDT, to get out of his box, is lol worthy.
Welcome to the forums
titsonritz
07-04-18, 13:30
I’m glad you saw that one time, but it doesn’t make fine motor skills nonsense. I don’t even know what to say to that comment. If we are basing things on anecdotal evidence, I have seen LEO qualifying with shotguns and ARs for years with MANY more induced AR malfunctions.
It’s all just opinion anyway. My opinion is that a shotgun is better in the hands of the majority of people (not everyone).
And I just saw your other comment about hearing. You are giving some bad info today brother. Do you know how many times police he called to scenes due to people hearing gunshots? Some of you guys need to get out of the boxes you’ve built.
If "fine motor skills" were a thing why aren't fighter pilots constantly falling out of the sky?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafkVM-jnbE
I have witnessed a few shootings in urban areas with no police showing up.
I'm not an SME on the topic, but I'm unclear why a shotgun is easy to point and shoot "without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills" compared to an AR, and as you can see from SME comments, the whole fine motor skill aspect in this context seems to be downplayed in a big way.
Telling Iraqgunz, a guy who has some BTDT on top of his BTDT, to get out of his box, is lol worthy.
Welcome to the forums
I’ve been on this forum a long time. I respect Iraqgunz, that doesn’t mean everything he says has to be agreed with. I’m not an expert, but I do work in the field and officers respond to “neighbors” reports of gunfire often. Saying otherwise is incorrect (or at least it’s different from other parts of the country)
We are talking about weapon manipulation. We are not talking about training units or professionals, I have clearly said multiple times now the “large majority”. That includes soccer moms, people that have hardly ever been around guns, people that get nervous to even hold one. When manipulating an AR vs a shotgun, one is easier than the other IMO. And that’s based off of qualifiers with guys that carry them every day, much less the people I listed above. That doesn’t apply to you, Iraqgunz, myself, or most other people on this forum. But if I’m suggesting a home defense weapon to the average person, it’s going to be a Woodstock non tactical shotgun. Thanks for the welcome
If "fine motor skills" were a thing why aren't fighter pilots constantly falling out of the sky?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafkVM-jnbE
.
:lol: Point made...
I don’t understand the logic behind saying PCC are not appropriate for Home defense but pistols are. They fire the same ammo but the PCC carries more, is easier to shoot than a pistol and can be used by a greater range of people.
Before everyone gets in a $&@ contest, go back and read the last page again. The discussion of sound had to do with a suppressed weapon firing pistol rounds. So DarkTemplars was concerned that his neighbor may not call the cops, from not recognizing (or hearing) the sound. And IG noted that it is sometimes difficult to know the exact location of the shots fired based on sound, which is absolutely true. I don’t think anyone was saying anything too crazy.
Defaultmp3
07-04-18, 15:43
9mm is fine for home defense. But my honest opinion is a good shotgun that you could easily point and shoot without worrying about the loss of fine motor skills is best for the LARGE majority. Unless you are some nerves of steel badass.If you had loss of fine motor skills, why would a shotgun be any better? You need fine motor skills to rack a pump, to hold a firearm, to pull a trigger, etc.
If you're using your fingers, wrists, hands, etc., you're using fine motor skills. In that regard, shotguns, semi or pump, are going to require just as much, if not more, fine motor skills as a rifle/PCC/etc.
I’ve been on this forum a long time. I respect Iraqgunz, that doesn’t mean everything he says has to be agreed with. I’m not an expert, but I do work in the field and officers respond to “neighbors” reports of gunfire often. Saying otherwise is incorrect (or at least it’s different from other parts of the country)
We are talking about weapon manipulation. We are not talking about training units or professionals, I have clearly said multiple times now the “large majority”. That includes soccer moms, people that have hardly ever been around guns, people that get nervous to even hold one. When manipulating an AR vs a shotgun, one is easier than the other IMO. And that’s based off of qualifiers with guys that carry them every day, much less the people I listed above. That doesn’t apply to you, Iraqgunz, myself, or most other people on this forum. But if I’m suggesting a home defense weapon to the average person, it’s going to be a Woodstock non tactical shotgun. Thanks for the welcome
How is a heavier gun with more recoil, and less rounds ready to go easier for inexperienced people?
If its a pump, now you have to rack it between shots instead of pulling the trigger.
On a side note, im assuming OP will practice with his gun.
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I am not talking about "hearing" gun shots. I am talking about hearing a gun shot and being able to accurately pinpoint where it came from.
I’m glad you saw that one time, but it doesn’t make fine motor skills nonsense. I don’t even know what to say to that comment. If we are basing things on anecdotal evidence, I have seen LEO qualifying with shotguns and ARs for years with MANY more induced AR malfunctions.
It’s all just opinion anyway. My opinion is that a shotgun is better in the hands of the majority of people (not everyone).
And I just saw your other comment about hearing. You are giving some bad info today brother. Do you know how many times police he called to scenes due to people hearing gunshots? Some of you guys need to get out of the boxes you’ve built.
Exactly.
Before everyone gets in a $&@ contest, go back and read the last page again. The discussion of sound had to do with a suppressed weapon firing pistol rounds. So DarkTemplars was concerned that his neighbor may not call the cops, from not recognizing (or hearing) the sound. And IG noted that it is sometimes difficult to know the exact location of the shots fired based on sound, which is absolutely true. I don’t think anyone was saying anything too crazy.
Well I must say, that you must have the best hearing in the world, because I can't imagine neighbors being able to relay to someone where gunfire came from when it is indoors. In fact it would be pretty amazing to be honest considering that even gunfire outdoors that is relatively close would be hard to detect.
My reading comprehension is fine, this is a direct response to someone saying a loud gunshot could also offer the benefit of someone calling 911. Must be a lot of people with the best hearing in the world, because people reporting gun shots with LEO response is a regular occurrence. Lol
DarkTemplars
07-04-18, 18:17
Well I must say, that you must have the best hearing in the world, because I can't imagine neighbors being able to relay to someone where gunfire came from when it is indoors. In fact it would be pretty amazing to be honest considering that even gunfire outdoors that is relatively close would be hard to detect.
I could care less what gets confiscated and for how long, if I can wake up the next morning and breath air.Come live in my apartment. I can tell when my neighbors are having arguments. And that's after 29 years of aircraft maintenance. Knowing that a gun just went off won't be an issue.
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I guess you still don't get it. Gunshots fired indoors thereby masking their origins. Someone hears a few pops and calls the police. What do you think the first question is going to be? Sir/Ma'am, where exactly did the shots come from? Well I don't know somewhere in my neighborhood. Not really sure to be honest. The whole reasoning behind not using one as some type of bat signal to the nosy neighbors is absurd.
My reading comprehension is fine, this is a direct response to someone saying a loud gunshot could also offer the benefit of someone calling 911. Must be a lot of people with the best hearing in the world, because people reporting gun shots with LEO response is a regular occurrence. Lol
Apartment with thin walls, in other words unique to your particular situation and not all situations across the board.
Come live in my apartment. I can tell when my neighbors are having arguments. And that's after 29 years of aircraft maintenance. Knowing that a gun just went off won't be an issue.
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I guess you still don't get it. Gunshots fired indoors thereby masking their origins. Someone hears a few pops and calls the police. What do you think the first question is going to be? Sir/Ma'am, where exactly did the shots come from? Well I don't know somewhere in my neighborhood. Not really sure to be honest. The whole reasoning behind not using one as some type of bat signal to the nosy neighbors is absurd.
Lol ok man, one of us for sure isn’t getting it. I’m not going to keep explaining it to an SME
Experienced shooters in 3 gun matches short stroke pumps all the time. A novice shooter cannot be expected to do any better under stress.
For my wife, all she has to worry about is disengaging the safety with her thumb and pressing the trigger. That's it until the carbine goes dry. While she isn't experienced to drop the magazine with one finger like a boss and insert the next one before the dropped one hits the ground, she can do it. I couldn't imagine her trying to insert bulky shells with her long fingernails one at a time under stress and putting the shotgun back into action. Not to mention, the excess recoil she doesn't like. With the 9mm PCC, she has no recoil flinch and if need be, we can exchange magazines while I'm working the pistol.
Beat Trash
07-04-18, 20:14
I’ve seen officers short stroke an 870 for years. A shotgun is a viable tool for home defense. But that doesn’t mean that it’s the best tool for home defense. Same with a sub gun or a PCC. They can be a viable gun for home defense. But when compared to a 5.56mm carbine or 11.5” AR pistol, the increase in terminal performance of the 5.56mm over a pistol caliber carbine makes the 5.56 mm or 300 blackout a superior choice.
If I were married and my wife had to possibly defend our home, it would be a shotgun.
I am married and knowing my wife, the worst thing I could do is arm her with a shotgun. It would be disastrous. When even experienced shooters find an AR easier to use than a shotgun, why would anyone saddle inexperienced beginners with a 12 gauge?
I am married and knowing my wife, the worst thing I could do is arm her with a shotgun. It would be disastrous. When even experienced shooters find an AR easier to use than a shotgun, why would anyone saddle inexperienced beginners with a 12 gauge?
My wife has mediocre firearms experience. She makes me leave an AR for her if i take all the guns for a big range day... she’ll settle for an ak. Pistol would be third choice and shotgun last, because she can get more rounds on target easier. A saiga 12might change that, but the only shotgun i have is a pump.
Edit- sorry- we are really getting off topic here. Plenty of “shotgun for HD” threads.
I’ve seen officers short stroke an 870 for years. A shotgun is a viable tool for home defense. But that doesn’t mean that it’s the best tool for home defense. Same with a sub gun or a PCC. They can be a viable gun for home defense. But when compared to a 5.56mm carbine or 11.5” AR pistol, the increase in terminal performance of the 5.56mm over a pistol caliber carbine makes the 5.56 mm or 300 blackout a superior choice.
In regards to the 5.56 indoors in your home, it isn't going to make someone any deader compared to multiple center mast hits with a pistol calibered carbine. Dead is dead. You wouldn't think that if you were on the street and dumped 3 or 4 rounds into someone's chest cavity with your pistol.
Of course a 5.56 has better terminal ballistics. So does a .308 or even better a .338 Lapua Magnum compared to a 5.56. But at some point you can't make someone deader.
No matter who he or she is that comes into your home, unless they are wearing armor, any PCC or pistol in and reasonable caliber will take someone down. You aren't going to just take one shot. Especially from a low recoil weapon that stays on target.
A rifle may not always be ideal in confined spaces due to flash and concussion. Try firing a rifle round indoors without hearing protection. It's rattling. Although still loud as hell, a PCC is nowhere near as rattling and because of this it's a go to for many. Entry units that use the 5.56 do so with combination hearing protection and coms.
TriggerFish
07-06-18, 15:11
While I've had a RR Mini UZI for over 10 years I have my Z-5P semi auto w/Tundra for HD purposes. This pic was with an OTAL which has been replaced with a light/laser combo.
https://i.imgur.com/zILtjqz.jpg
Better this set up held as evidence than the sub gun.
montesf1030
07-07-18, 19:30
I have 4 very viable and reliable HD sub-gun options
Chiappa PAK9, CZ Scorpion Evo, NFA AR-9 and the new Grand Power Striboghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180708/321f0e724add14ff596bcf28f7add23a.jpg
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indianalex01
07-18-18, 10:42
I don’t understand the logic behind saying PCC are not appropriate for Home defense but pistols are. They fire the same ammo but the PCC carries more, is easier to shoot than a pistol and can be used by a greater range of people.
A PCC (SBR even better) is a great choice for a woman. One of the best. Way better then a shotty in my opinion.
[/ATTACH]52949
I have 4 very viable and reliable HD sub-gun options
Chiappa PAK9, CZ Scorpion Evo, NFA AR-9 and the new Grand Power Striboghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180708/321f0e724add14ff596bcf28f7add23a.jpg
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Sweet rigs! I dig all of those - I just picked up a Stribog last night. Do you have a favorite?
montesf1030
07-19-18, 22:57
Sweet rigs! I dig all of those - I just picked up a Stribog last night. Do you have a favorite?
Love the Scorpion Evo but my AR 9 is nicely tune in and is a great shooter .... Just got the Grand Power Striborg about 3 weeks ago and taken it a few times to the range and is an amazing Subgun Pistol ... Might become my fav soon .... Needs more rounds to make sure is going to be a 100 percent reliable HD option
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TriggerFish
07-20-18, 09:28
Z-5P PDW Project • 9mm HD setup
https://i.imgur.com/NlFNtuu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f08PHyJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iJZjQXB.jpg
Just added an SB Tactical brace to the pistol to make it a better HD unit.
+ Sight Mark LoPro 220 lumen light/green laser
I have a couple of PCCs, including an 8” AR-9 with flash can, and it is a sweet shooter.
That being said, if I have a choice, I will always pick the terminal ballistics advantages of a rifle in a gunfight over a pistol caliber. Not saying a PCC isn’t viable, it absolutely is, I would just rather have a rifle, especially when the size of the weapon is similar. YMMV
Personally, my HD gun is an 8” .300BLK SBR, with Specwar suppressor, running Barnes 110 gr VOR-TX ammo. It's very quiet in a small package, and those 110gr Barnes bullets hit hard. I also have a 10.5” 5.56 pistol, but prefer the .300BLK for HD.
So this is just one man's opinion but I base it off of having the misfortune of being shot at inside a house-
Inside your typical 2x4 and drywall house, anything 9mm and up is more than viable. I was once on the receiving end of a guy shooting through walls with a 9mm Glock, 40 caliber Glock and a shotgun loaded with birdshot. All three went through multiple walls like they weren't even there. I guess I'm glad they weren't .223 rounds because I was wearing a IIIA vest at the time but that's really splitting hairs considering any of those rounds could have hit me in the face.
Nothing wrong with 9mm PCC for home defense in my view. My PCC is a lot quieter than my 11.5" BCM, I really wouldn't want to fire that indoors without hearing protection.
But do recall, .223 tends to penetrate less than 9mm contrary to what may seem common sense, so perhaps less likely to strike you as it does not pass through walls like they are not there. I was not there and don't know the details, so just general observation to your comments and possible food for thought on the overall topic.
indianalex01
08-27-18, 23:41
But do recall, .223 tends to penetrate less than 9mm contrary to what may seem common sense, so perhaps less likely to strike you as it does not pass through walls like they are not there. I was not there and don't know the details, so just general observation to your comments and possible food for thought on the overall topic.
223 has more penetrating then 9mm. Shot a vest and see what happens. No even close.
MountainRaven
08-28-18, 00:38
223 has more penetrating then 9mm. Shot a vest and see what happens. No even close.
Did you shoot the vest through dry wall and 2x4s?
223 has more penetrating then 9mm. Shot a vest and see what happens. No even close.
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is .223 does not penetrate dry wall, 2x4, etc compared to 9mm, and thus, in the situation you were talking about, may actually present a lower risk. It's counter intuitive to think .223 fails to penetrate compared to 9mm in homes, but it's true. That's well established. Obviously there's a lot of potential variables, and my only point was perhaps, with walls between you, may actually be safer with .223. It's also why .223 may actually be better for HD. It was just added as point of potential interest.
indianalex01
08-28-18, 20:21
My 9mm and .40 carbines kick more than my 5.56 guns. It’s not a huge difference but it’s noticeable.
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Then train her or get her some training.
Defaultmp3
08-28-18, 21:07
Then train her or get her some training.How does that in any way change that PCCs often have more recoil than their carbine counter parts? It's simply the nature of the beast, given how many PCCs are blowback guns. This is why the MPX dominates the PCC realm in USPSA, as it's not blowback like the various AR-types and the CZ Evo.
indianalex01
08-28-18, 21:21
How does that in any way change that PCCs often have more recoil than their carbine counter parts? It's simply the nature of the beast, given how many PCCs are blowback guns. This is why the MPX dominates the PCC realm in USPSA, as it's not blowback like the various AR-types and the CZ Evo.
I ask you this in all seriousness. How is the clone MP5’s comparing to MPX in USPSA as far as recoil and such? Thanks in advance
Rayrevolver
08-29-18, 10:04
How are you guys securing carbines with toddlers/kids running around? As much as I would like to keep a long gun handy I have not figured out a reasonable method to make it happen. The smallest footprint I have would be a suppressed MP5K with a folding brace but even then it would not be bedside.
I don't care a hoot if I lose a 2-stamp SBR or a MP5 clone during a HD situation. Being safe and stopping an attack is priority 1. Saving hearing is number 2.
How are you guys securing carbines with toddlers/kids running around? As much as I would like to keep a long gun handy I have not figured out a reasonable method to make it happen.
My kids are still young enough (5, 3, and 3 months old) that I can keep my suppressed 300BLK on the top shelf of my bedroom closet and they can't get to it (and they don't know it's there anyway). Even still, I always keep the safety on with mag inserted on an empty chamber. In the rare off chance one of them was able to get it, the chance of them being able to figure out how to chamber a round and manipulate the safety at their age is slim. Once they get older, I will probably keep the 300BLK in a small closet safe like this https://www.amazon.com/BARSKA-Quick-Access-Biometric-AX11652/dp/B005FDIUPE
Defaultmp3
08-29-18, 10:36
I ask you this in all seriousness. How is the clone MP5’s comparing to MPX in USPSA as far as recoil and such? Thanks in advanceI honestly don't know. The roller lock systems will definitely be far better than the blowback systems, but anecdotally, there doesn't seem to be much difference unsuppressed.
Then train her or get her some training.
I don't have a "her" to train. I was making a comment. My Lady is a Marine Corps Combat Veteran. I did buy her a midlengh BCM and G19. She shoots very well.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180830/abd341f6851d664b8b502a1e2adbb353.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180830/272f5573980cbfa7e07e43a1abf7ba5d.png
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How are you guys securing carbines with toddlers/kids running around? As much as I would like to keep a long gun handy I have not figured out a reasonable method to make it happen. The smallest footprint I have would be a suppressed MP5K with a folding brace but even then it would not be bedside.
I don't care a hoot if I lose a 2-stamp SBR or a MP5 clone during a HD situation. Being safe and stopping an attack is priority 1. Saving hearing is number 2.
I have this under my bed.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180830/e0ce25b26a297413e2f96bf776e9baf5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180830/0d7a80174653d244cef969d516ead035.jpg
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How does that in any way change that PCCs often have more recoil than their carbine counter parts? It's simply the nature of the beast, given how many PCCs are blowback guns. This is why the MPX dominates the PCC realm in USPSA, as it's not blowback like the various AR-types and the CZ Evo.
CMMG makes a delayed rotary locking bolt AR Pistol in 9mm. I built a 40 AR Pistol and used this buffer system.
https://taccom3g.com/product/taccom-pcc-adjustable-buffer-system/
It makes all the difference in the world.
indianalex01
08-31-18, 23:38
I don't have a "her" to train. I was making a comment. My Lady is a Marine Corps Combat Veteran. I did buy her a midlengh BCM and G19. She shoots very well.
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Good to you have Marine wife. Semper Fi
To each his or her own. My personal opinion is that whatever firearm you train with and are able to shoot very well under stress should work for home defense. I generally prefer one of my AR-15s because that’s the one I have the most experience with and shoot best. One is still in the bedroom closet for ‘just in case’ comfort. No kids at home. However, a few months ago I switched to a Zenith MKE manufactured Z-5RS 9mm semi. After few hundred FMJ rounds I found I really liked the gun but really hated the God awful the trigger. I replaced the terrible trigger with one made in the USA, added a part from HK Pro that let me add a white light, and Burris FastFire3 sight. Next range visit, few more hundred rounds, and everything worked well together. Cleaning was less fun...
.After enough shooting, I found it to be reliable and accurate. Cleaning became easier too. I tested all sorts of self defense ammo, and I found it liked Hornady’s Critical Duty 135gr the best, so that’s what it is loaded with. My wife is happy with her SIG P229. I wasn’t able to convince her to send more than a few rounds down range. I learned not to be pushy and she’s very good with her SIG, so that was that. Back to the clone, given how short it is, it is much easier to work with inside our home. Much easier to slice and navigate the several corners than with my suppressed HK AR. It did take some practice time to do it well. So, as much as I appreciate my AR as a great fighting tool, the 9mm sub gun is now my home work gun, and the longer suppressed AR is what I’ll use *if* I really need to go outside (our land; rural area).
Final point: if I am completely surprised, and only have a few seconds to react, my bedside fallback is a Baer .45 1911.
I hope I never have to use any of them, but they are all ready to go just in case.
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indianalex01
09-02-18, 21:50
In regards to the 5.56 indoors in your home, it isn't going to make someone any deader compared to multiple center mast hits with a pistol calibered carbine. Dead is dead. You wouldn't think that if you were on the street and dumped 3 or 4 rounds into someone's chest cavity with your pistol.
Of course a 5.56 has better terminal ballistics. So does a .308 or even better a .338 Lapua Magnum compared to a 5.56. But at some point you can't make someone deader.
No matter who he or she is that comes into your home, unless they are wearing armor, any PCC or pistol in and reasonable caliber will take someone down. You aren't going to just take one shot. Especially from a low recoil weapon that stays on target.
A rifle may not always be ideal in confined spaces due to flash and concussion. Try firing a rifle round indoors without hearing protection. It's rattling. Although still loud as hell, a PCC is nowhere near as rattling and because of this it's a go to for many. Entry units that use the 5.56 do so with combination hearing protection and coms.
Your post is flawed. You say a hit from a 5.56 isn’t going to make someone deader the multiple chest hits from a PCC. 1st, why only one hit from 556 but multiple chest shots from PCC??? 2nd flaw is you aren’t always going to get “multiple chest shots”. Pistol calibers suck in comparison to a rifle round. I have both. Just don’t try to sell that a PCC is as good as rifle caliber carbine. It’s not. Many 223 rounds have low flash propellant now days. You aren’t going to get the perfect shot. An arm, leg or gut shot from a 223/556 will be way more devastating then a pistol round. No more posting flawed Scenarios to justify your stance.
I actually love PCC’s have 3 of them. I use them for home defense. I just can’t stand when people talk of a Scenario that put the cards in their favor to justify their gun.
Your post is flawed. You say a hit from a 5.56 isn’t going to make someone deader the multiple chest hits from a PCC. 1st, why only one hit from 556 but multiple chest shots from PCC??? 2nd flaw is you aren’t always going to get “multiple chest shots”. Pistol calibers suck in comparison to a rifle round. I have both. Just don’t try to sell that a PCC is as good as rifle caliber carbine. It’s not. Many 223 rounds have low flash propellant now days. You aren’t going to get the perfect shot. An arm, leg or gut shot from a 223/556 will be way more devastating then a pistol round. No more posting flawed Scenarios to justify your stance.
I actually love PCC’s have 3 of them. I use them for home defense. I just can’t stand when people talk of a Scenario that put the cards in their favor to justify their gun.
He was banned.
indianalex01
09-03-18, 09:22
He was banned.
Why did he get banned?
Your post is flawed. You say a hit from a 5.56 isn’t going to make someone deader the multiple chest hits from a PCC. 1st, why only one hit from 556 but multiple chest shots from PCC??? 2nd flaw is you aren’t always going to get “multiple chest shots”. Pistol calibers suck in comparison to a rifle round. I have both. Just don’t try to sell that a PCC is as good as rifle caliber carbine. It’s not. Many 223 rounds have low flash propellant now days. You aren’t going to get the perfect shot. An arm, leg or gut shot from a 223/556 will be way more devastating then a pistol round. No more posting flawed Scenarios to justify your stance.
I actually love PCC’s have 3 of them. I use them for home defense. I just can’t stand when people talk of a Scenario that put the cards in their favor to justify their gun.
Depends. Pistol calibers in longer barrels do as well or better than than rifle calibers in short barrels. No cherry picking allowed, if you use the best ammo for both. Case in point; My 40 S&W AR with an 8.5" BBL and 155 grn HST's will out perform a 5.56 64 grain soft point when fired from a 7.5" or 10.5" BBL. If you REALLY want to see what PCC's do look at ballistics for Magnum lever guns.
Once you get into real rifles the argument becomes moot. But to discount 600-700 FPE is intellectually lazy.
Low flash? How about NO flash, that is what you get from a PCC properly configured.
53651
My 40 S&W AR with an 8.5" BBL and 155 grn HST's will out perform a 5.56 64 grain soft point when fired from a 7.5" or 10.5" BBL.
Are you comparing .40 vs 5.56 from a 10.5” barrel in performance? I’ll have two of whatever you’re drinking today.
Depends. Pistol calibers in longer barrels do as well or better than than rifle calibers in short barrels. No cherry picking allowed, if you use the best ammo for both. Case in point; My 40 S&W AR with an 8.5" BBL and 155 grn HST's will out perform a 5.56 64 grain soft point when fired from a 7.5" or 10.5" BBL. If you REALLY want to see what PCC's do look at ballistics for Magnum lever guns.
Once you get into real rifles the argument becomes moot. But to discount 600-700 FPE is intellectually lazy.
Low flash? How about NO flash, that is what you get from a PCC properly configured.
Source?
Many people have discussed over penetration in urban environments....With that being said, if I lived in a townhouse, surrounded by people on all sides, a subgun would probably be more in my favor. It's still able and capable of punching through shite, but not as much as the 5.56.
This is factually incorrect.
"Statements are made that the shotgun or pistol should be used because of the over-penetration problem with 5.56 carbine ammunition. This could not be further from the truth. If you conduct a little research you will find that numerous law enforcement departments, to include the FBI, have proven this to be false in most cases. The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration." US Army Sergeant Major Lamb (former Delta/CAG)
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
"Common pistol rounds easily penetrated all 4 walls spaced out at room distances. This is a critical issue. Think about the inside of your house and imagine if you shot through 4 walls. Could you hit a loved one? Know your target and what is behind it....The 5.56 rounds deviated greatly from the original flight path once they started tumbling. This occurred after the second wall." Old_Painless (certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Firearms Defense, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-12-insulated-walls/
"Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s 'just' a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets....For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood." James Tarr (former police officer; contributing editor for Guns and Ammo)
http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/
"The .223/5.56 is moving at around 3,000 feet per second, and while it isn’t magic bullet, it’s a far cry better than any pistol round. Another advantage of the .223/5.56 is its limited penetration. The shape and velocity of the round cause it to immediately expend or dissipate its energy once it strikes something." Tiger McKee (adjunct instructor at Thunder Ranch)
https://gundigest.com/reviews/ar-15-ideal-home-defense-guns
"The pistol rounds were seemingly unaffected by the drywall and/or wood barriers. There was no observable deviation or fragmentation of the 9mm projectiles. You’d be safe counting on a pistol round to keep going, and going, and going. After all, premium pistol ammunition is designed to expand, and lose energy, when striking liquid-based targets—not walls. The full metal jacket .223 rounds tended to tumble rather than break apart when they encountered barriers." Tom McHale (contributor at AmmoLand and OutdoorHub)
http://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/
"FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun." Caleb Lee (NRA Certified Basic Pistol & Personal Protection Inside The Home Instructor)
http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/
"Since all of the 5.56 mm/.223 bullets fired through the interior wall had significantly less penetration than 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through an interior wall, stray 5.56 mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. As such, 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and crowded urban environments than service caliber handguns or 12 ga. weapons." Dr. Gary Williams (ballistics expert)
http://www.recoilweb.com/ar-vs-shotgun-for-home-defense-again-2-of-2-39203.html#ixzz4zCOCPykZ
Source?
The 155 grn HST's that I use will do 1350 from my 8.5" BBL giving me 627 FPE with a bullet that will expand to about .67 every time.
The 5.56, lets use my 64 grain Gold Dot example, it will do @ 2400 FPS from a 10.5" barrel (some are faster than others) giving us 704 FPE, will it expand? we don't know at that velocity. If not the energy is wasted so you lose much if any advantage you had.
Is either a bad choice? Will one be significantly better than the other? Perhaps I used the wrong word, perhaps the 40 will not outperform the 5.56, but it is far from suck.
I own both. The 40 is my go to for the reasons listed and the fact that there is zero flash and magnitudes less blast.
My 44 magnum carbine throws a 180 grn JHP @ about 1900 fps for over 1400 FPE.
There is a lot of Dogma in gun forums.
Klingkong251
09-03-18, 18:24
Thank you for all the replies I've gotten to this thread, I appreciate the knowledge and different opinions that have been posted thus far. I have another question for the thread, seeing as how a 556/223 has more potential to zip through a human target even with a short barrel than let's say a pistol round, would you rather defend yourself with the bullet that has less energy but dumps all of it into the target without exiting or a bullet with more energy that zips through the target only dumping a portion of it's energy and leaving an exit wound?
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The 155 grn HST's that I use will do 1350 from my 8.5" BBL giving me 627 FPE with a bullet that will expand to about .67 every time.
The 5.56, lets use my 64 grain Gold Dot example, it will do @ 2400 FPS from a 10.5" barrel (some are faster than others) giving us 704 FPE, will it expand? we don't know at that velocity. If not the energy is wasted so you lose much if any advantage you had.
Is either a bad choice? Will one be significantly better than the other? Perhaps I used the wrong word, perhaps the 40 will not outperform the 5.56, but it is far from suck.
I own both. The 40 is my go to for the reasons listed and the fact that there is zero flash and magnitudes less blast.
My 44 magnum carbine throws a 180 grn JHP @ about 1900 fps for over 1400 FPE.
There is a lot of Dogma in gun forums.
62 gr Gold Dot expands acceptably down to at least 1700 fps. So one might make a leap of logic and hypothesize that a 64gr Gold Dot starting at 2400fps would expand at typical home defense ranges.
I can follow your logic about flash, and that a .40 is an adequate tool. However, terminal effects of rifles and pistols are different beasts, and I’ve been much more impressed by rifle wounds than pistol wounds. Its a velocity thing.
1). seeing as how a 556/223 has more potential to zip through a human target even with a short barrel than let's say a pistol round,
2). would you rather defend yourself with the bullet that has less energy but dumps all of it into the target without exiting or a bullet with more energy that zips through the target only dumping a portion of it's energy and leaving an exit wound?
1) not necessarily true
2) I would always choose a rifle, if terminal effect is my main consideration.
62 gr Gold Dot expands acceptably down to at least 1700 fps. So one might make a leap of logic and hypothesize that a 64gr Gold Dot starting at 2400fps would expand at typical home defense ranges.
I can follow your logic about flash, and that a .40 is an adequate tool. However, terminal effects of rifles and pistols are different beasts, and I’ve been much more impressed by rifle wounds than pistol wounds. Its a velocity thing.
If we are talking rifles then yes. I was comparing SBR/AR pistols.
If we are talking rifles then yes. I was comparing SBR/AR pistols.
From a 10.3” barrel, and probably shorter, what I said about rifle vs pistol cartridge terminal effects holds true. I’m not sure at what barrel length a pistol cartridge is more terminally effective than a rifle cartridge, if it exists.
Edit: some googling of velocities from crazy short barrels has led me to believe that even from an 8” barrel, rifle rounds are probably superior, when considering only terminal effects. I don’t even want to find out what the muzzle blast is like. Unsuppressed, I can’t think of a reason for a barrel less than 12.5” for home-d. I don’t live on a ship, YMMV. Cans change everything, obviously.
indianalex01
09-03-18, 22:33
Depends. Pistol calibers in longer barrels do as well or better than than rifle calibers in short barrels. No cherry picking allowed, if you use the best ammo for both. Case in point; My 40 S&W AR with an 8.5" BBL and 155 grn HST's will out perform a 5.56 64 grain soft point when fired from a 7.5" or 10.5" BBL. If you REALLY want to see what PCC's do look at ballistics for Magnum lever guns.
Once you get into real rifles the argument becomes moot. But to discount 600-700 FPE is intellectually lazy.
Low flash? How about NO flash, that is what you get from a PCC properly configured.
53651
You say no cherry picking but then you do it. 7.5 is to darn small. 10.5 inch 556 blows away any 9mm or 40 cal. Pretty much any soft or HP made by federal. Not even close. You can even have a PCC in 16in. Not even close. No reputable unit mil/LE uses 7.5. That is joke size. Come on. Bring some morsels to the table.
You say no cherry picking but then you do it. 7.5 is to darn small. 10.5 inch 556 blows away any 9mm or 40 cal. Pretty much any soft or HP made by federal. Not even close. You can even have a PCC in 16in. Not even close. No reputable unit mil/LE uses 7.5. That is joke size. Come on. Bring some morsels to the table.
No cherry picking ammo. I am a retired fed, I could give a hoot what anyone carries/ uses. I am using contract ammo not COTS ammo, its a tad hotter. The rifle VS pistol works when discussing rifle length barrels, when you shorten them the rifle round loses much of its advantage. I agree that a rifle is more powerful than a pistol. For some people the PCC or heck even the AR pistol in a pistol cartridge is a better choice for some applications, one of those applications is inside a home (enclosed space). If I need to reach out and touch someone I use a rifle.
From a 10.3” barrel, and probably shorter, what I said about rifle vs pistol cartridge terminal effects holds true. I’m not sure at what barrel length a pistol cartridge is more terminally effective than a rifle cartridge, if it exists.
Depends on the pistol cartridge.
Edit: some googling of velocities from crazy short barrels has led me to believe that even from an 8” barrel, rifle rounds are probably superior, when considering only terminal effects. I don’t even want to find out what the muzzle blast is like. Unsuppressed, I can’t think of a reason for a barrel less than 12.5” for home-d. I don’t live on a ship, YMMV. Cans change everything, obviously.
I don't run a can, hell cans even increase velocity, provided you use a modern can and not one of the old school nylon wipe cans. Maybe they are superior with super short barrels and maybe they are not. I have a 7.5" and a 10.5 " 5.56 and a 7.5" 300 Blackout. My point is that if you use the best pistol ammo in a 8"-16" barrel they don't suck. I am no 9mm fan, which is why I went with the hot 40 and logistics of course. Being retired, logistics is important to me. I tried and tried to find decent data on the 40 from barrels between pistol barrels and carbine with little luck. BBTI, their data is BS on the tweener sizes as they just extrapolate the data without measuring.
Depends on the pistol cartridge.
I don't run a can, hell cans even increase velocity, provided you use a modern can and not one of the old school nylon wipe cans. Maybe they are superior with super short barrels and maybe they are not. I have a 7.5" and a 10.5 " 5.56 and a 7.5" 300 Blackout. My point is that if you use the best pistol ammo in a 8"-16" barrel they don't suck. I am no 9mm fan, which is why I went with the hot 40 and logistics of course. Being retired, logistics is important to me. I tried and tried to find decent data on the 40 from barrels between pistol barrels and carbine with little luck. BBTI, their data is BS on the tweener sizes as they just extrapolate the data without measuring.
You literally said a pistol round outperforms a rifle round, each out of 8”ish barrels.
If your point was that pistol rounds don’t suck, why didn’t you just say that?
Something like fusion or 50gr tsx performs much better than pistol rounds because of the large, effective temp cavity, which for pistol rounds is effectively nonexistent.
Thank you for all the replies I've gotten to this thread, I appreciate the knowledge and different opinions that have been posted thus far. I have another question for the thread, seeing as how a 556/223 has more potential to zip through a human target even with a short barrel than let's say a pistol round, would you rather defend yourself with the bullet that has less energy but dumps all of it into the target without exiting or a bullet with more energy that zips through the target only dumping a portion of it's energy and leaving an exit wound?
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Says who? Too many factors to make a statement like that, bullet design being primary factor.
indianalex01
09-04-18, 11:42
You literally said a pistol round outperforms a rifle round, each out of 8”ish barrels.
If your point was that pistol rounds don’t suck, why didn’t you just say that?
Something like fusion or 50gr tsx performs much better than pistol rounds because of the large, effective temp cavity, which for pistol rounds is effectively nonexistent.
That’s the part the guy doesn’t understand. A bullet flying 2,000 FPS of more, the temp cavity becomes permanent. That is the main reason pistol calibers suck compared to rifle calibers. Velocity. Gold Dot expand down to 1400 FPS. 55, 62 and 75gn will blow away any 40 cal damage wise out of a short barrel.
The 155 grn HST's that I use will do 1350 from my 8.5" BBL giving me 627 FPE with a bullet that will expand to about .67 every time.
The 5.56, lets use my 64 grain Gold Dot example, it will do @ 2400 FPS from a 10.5" barrel (some are faster than others) giving us 704 FPE, will it expand? we don't know at that velocity. If not the energy is wasted so you lose much if any advantage you had.
Is either a bad choice? Will one be significantly better than the other? Perhaps I used the wrong word, perhaps the 40 will not outperform the 5.56, but it is far from suck.
I own both. The 40 is my go to for the reasons listed and the fact that there is zero flash and magnitudes less blast.
My 44 magnum carbine throws a 180 grn JHP @ about 1900 fps for over 1400 FPE.
There is a lot of Dogma in gun forums.
True enough, but not sure what dogma has been pushed in this thread per se, and M4C is pretty low on unsupported dogma. No one claims the subgun (9mm was the specific caliber) was not a viable choice for HD, but did generally recommend other options as likely superior for weight/size for reasons covered all through the thread.
That’s the part the guy doesn’t understand. A bullet flying 2,000 FPS of more, the temp cavity becomes permanent. That is the main reason pistol calibers suck compared to rifle calibers. Velocity. Gold Dot expand down to 1400 FPS. 55, 62 and 75gn will blow away any 40 cal damage wise out of a short barrel.
The guy understands it. Cavitation...... Guess what, bigger diameter requires less velocity.:rolleyes:
Proof or internet wisdom?
You literally said a pistol round outperforms a rifle round, each out of 8”ish barrels.
If your point was that pistol rounds don’t suck, why didn’t you just say that?
Something like fusion or 50gr tsx performs much better than pistol rounds because of the large, effective temp cavity, which for pistol rounds is effectively nonexistent.
Did I or did I not state I used the wrong word? What do you want? Or are you just dog-pilling?
You mean pistol rounds fired from pistols at pistol velocities? What velocities do you mean? I have 115 grain 357 Sig loads that run 1600 fps from my Glock. I blew a hole thru a skunk I could see through....
I stand by my statement that from an 8.5" barrel the right 40 load will outperform a 5.56 from a 7.5 " barrel, prove me wrong with facts not internet BS. I will admit I am wrong if you can show me proof beyond velocity numbers, velocity is only one part of the equation. Just because a bullet deforms down to a certain threshold does not mean it is the optimum velocity for said bullet.
I have been around long enough to do a stint in the Army and retire from law enforcement, I have seen plenty of people shot.
True enough, but not sure what dogma has been pushed in this thread per se, and M4C is pretty low on unsupported dogma. No one claims the subgun (9mm was the specific caliber) was not a viable choice for HD, but did generally recommend other options as likely superior for weight/size for reasons covered all through the thread.
What Dogma....
That rifle calibers are always better than pistol calibers.
Did I or did I not state I used the wrong word? What do you want? Or are you just dog-pilling?
You mean pistol rounds fired from pistols at pistol velocities? What velocities do you mean? I have 115 grain 357 Sig loads that run 1600 fps from my Glock. I blew a hole thru a skunk I could see through....
I stand by my statement that from an 8.5" barrel the right 40 load will outperform a 5.56 from a 7.5 " barrel, prove me wrong with facts not internet BS. I will admit I am wrong if you can show me proof beyond velocity numbers, velocity is only one part of the equation. Just because a bullet deforms down to a certain threshold does not mean it is the optimum velocity for said bullet.
I have been around long enough to do a stint in the Army and retire from law enforcement, I have seen plenty of people shot.
Per below...
What Dogma....
That rifle calibers are always better than pistol calibers.
Unless you really muck with the variable to favor the pistol, that's a general truth. I don't think anyone claimed it was true under all circumstances regardless of barrel length and or ammo used.
Did I or did I not state I used the wrong word? What do you want? Or are you just dog-pilling?
You mean pistol rounds fired from pistols at pistol velocities? What velocities do you mean? I have 115 grain 357 Sig loads that run 1600 fps from my Glock. I blew a hole thru a skunk I could see through....
I stand by my statement that from an 8.5" barrel the right 40 load will outperform a 5.56 from a 7.5 " barrel, prove me wrong with facts not internet BS. I will admit I am wrong if you can show me proof beyond velocity numbers, velocity is only one part of the equation. Just because a bullet deforms down to a certain threshold does not mean it is the optimum velocity for said bullet.
I have been around long enough to do a stint in the Army and retire from law enforcement, I have seen plenty of people shot.
And unless that projectile designed to perform as intended at that velocity, pushing JHP beyond their intended range, can actually reduce their terminal performance as they expand to early and fail to penetrate. As you pointed out, velocity is but one variable, and can even work against you under some circumstances. FMJ designed to perform in standard velocities may preform worse when pushed to +p+ velocities.
Proof or internet wisdom?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PAHu-5-aUM
Note: edit: I have a professional interest in terminal effects, with appropriate practice and study. If you disagree, cool.
Guys again, common sense must rule.
Mission is defending your home.
Issue number one is penetration of the walls in your home is you miss. 5.56 seems to be better than 9mm in many test.
Number 2 tactics. You should do your defense of your home behind cover that will stop in coming fire. If they can hit you they can hurt you. Force them into fatal funnels and finish them.
Bottom line if you have done the above correctly, then you will be shooting the proverbial fish in the barrel.
I have had 1 shot stops as a sniper. But using an M16 or mini or micro uzi I have never had a one shot stop to the best of my memory since I always shot in controlled pairs.
Defaultmp3
09-04-18, 20:50
The 155 grn HST's that I use will do 1350 from my 8.5" BBL giving me 627 FPE with a bullet that will expand to about .67 every time.How do you know it expands to 0.67" every time? Typically, driving a bullet ~200 FPS faster than the FPS on the box probably isn't a good thing. Push the bullet too fast, and it'll end up underpenetrating, as the round will expand too much, too fast, and end up not adequately penetrating.
Did I or did I not state I used the wrong word? What do you want? Or are you just dog-pilling?
You mean pistol rounds fired from pistols at pistol velocities? What velocities do you mean? I have 115 grain 357 Sig loads that run 1600 fps from my Glock. I blew a hole thru a skunk I could see through....
I stand by my statement that from an 8.5" barrel the right 40 load will outperform a 5.56 from a 7.5 " barrel, prove me wrong with facts not internet BS. I will admit I am wrong if you can show me proof beyond velocity numbers, velocity is only one part of the equation. Just because a bullet deforms down to a certain threshold does not mean it is the optimum velocity for said bullet.
I have been around long enough to do a stint in the Army and retire from law enforcement, I have seen plenty of people shot.
https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Aegis-Academy-Howard-Hall-Handgun-Defense-Ammunition-Terminal-Ballistics-Gel-Test-Comparison-Photo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lSJKqkj.jpg
Edit-
The guy understands it. Cavitation...... Guess what, bigger diameter requires less velocity.:rolleyes:
Proof or internet wisdom?
Youre looking at pretty much the same frontal area with both, and 1000fps diference.
I blew a pigeon in half with 22lr yellowjackets.. literally. Its not better than 556.
https://aegisacademy.com/schedule/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Aegis-Academy-Howard-Hall-Handgun-Defense-Ammunition-Terminal-Ballistics-Gel-Test-Comparison-Photo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lSJKqkj.jpg
Edit-
Youre looking at pretty much the same frontal area with both, and 1000fps diference.
I blew a pigeon in half with 22lr yellowjackets.. literally. Its not better than 556.
The 40 loads you show are fired from pistols, irrelevant.
The 40 loads you show are fired from pistols, irrelevant.
In .40 S&W, adding 10 inches of barrel gets you 100-150 fps gain in heavy loads and 150-200fps in lighter loads. Still a pistol round.
The 40 loads you show are fired from pistols, irrelevant.
So the 100fps faster between two loads in 40 doesn’t matter, but the 200 more FPS will take it beyond the 8” barrel gel test ?
Ok.
How do you know it expands to 0.67" every time? Typically, driving a bullet ~200 FPS faster than the FPS on the box probably isn't a good thing. Push the bullet too fast, and it'll end up underpenetrating, as the round will expand too much, too fast, and end up not adequately penetrating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkUm7iegNbM
Look to the hot 10mm for what a 40 will do out of a longer barrel. It is not rocket science.
In .40 S&W, adding 10 inches of barrel gets you 100-150 fps gain in heavy loads and 150-200fps in lighter loads. Still a pistol round.
So, going from 3400 fps to 2000 fps losing 10" of barrel its still a 22 caliber rifle round vs a 40 caliber pistol round, sure thing.
What is your hangup with rifle VS pistol? Do you even know where and when that started? Do some research. It started with Dr Kocher in the 1880's in Germany before smokeless powder was invented. It was almost like caveman logic, rifles fast (2000 fps) , pistols slow (1000). There are pistol rounds today that shatter that ancient Dogma.
I blew a pigeon in half with 22lr yellowjackets.. literally.
R-I-G-H-T.....
So the 100fps faster between two loads in 40 doesn’t matter, but the 200 more FPS will take it beyond the 8” barrel gel test ?
Ok.
Did you read what I posted? I am using contract ammo, 155 grain JHP's @ 1200 FPS from a 4.5" BBL. If I really wanted to play I would get some 135 Grain Underwood. I am not trying to start a fight here. I am saying that a 155 grain 40 caliber HST @ 1300 FPS is better than a 22 caliber rifle bullet @ 2000 FPS for Self Defense. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am that wrong. All you guys are looking at is jello and numbers on paper. I have seen real people shot. Yes the 5.56 from a carbine within 75 yards is devastating, from an 8" BBL you get what 1/2 the velocity? The rifle bullet NEEDS velocity.
Unless you really muck with the variable to favor the pistol, that's a general truth. I don't think anyone claimed it was true under all circumstances regardless of barrel length and or ammo used.
No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?
If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.
General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?
There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.
No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?
If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.
General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?
There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.
But a pistol caliber from a sub gun is... Ok. This thread has gone in utterly unproductive directions.
No. I provided muzzle energy figures. Some of the "variables" that influence bullet performance are Muzzle Energy, momentum, sectional density and bullet construction. No one has disputed the facts. Muzzle energy is the ability to do work. How can two bullets with similar M.E. that shed said energy in the target perform totally differently?
If I really wanted to be a jerk I would make one in 357 Sig. The loads I use (Underwood) run 1600 fps from my Glock.
General truth? Is that like Oxymoron?
There have been thousands of people shot with the 5.56 that did not go down with the first or even 3rd hit. One can surmise that the 5.56 sucks. The 5.56 is not magic.
double tap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkUm7iegNbM
Look to the hot 10mm for what a 40 will do out of a longer barrel. It is not rocket science.
With 180 grain factory loads tested by Ballistics By The Inch (BBTI) there is a nearly 400 fps spread between .40 and 10mm in a 16” tube. 360 fps difference in 10” barrels.
So, going from 3400 fps to 2000 fps losing 10" of barrel its still a 22 caliber rifle round vs a 40 caliber pistol round, sure thing.
SNIP Do some research. SNIP.
Where are these numbers coming from? Cite your sources, please. You clearly didn’t watch the video I posted here comparing rifle and pistol wounding.
20” Fusion MSR 2867 fps
10.5” Fusion MSR 2530 fps
20” Black Hills 77 OTM 2650 fps
10.5” Black Hills OTM 2440 fps
11” Cor-Bon 165gr .40 1350 fps
My sources are Molon on M4c, SOFREP, and BBTI.
As for me needing to do research, I have. It is my job to be familiar with wounding mechanisms, and I also teach on the subject of intentional trauma/battlefield trauma to limited audiences of military healthcare providers. I am credentialed in most of the trauma courses available, and have first hand experience on the battlefield, and the streets. There are certainly lots of people more educated than I, but I try to stay current. If you have any materials you might reasonably expect me to not be aware of, point me to them so that I may educate myself. I’m always open to learning more.
Ok guys you win. I admit I was wrong. Pistols calibers in any configuration are less powerful than rifle calibers in any configuration. I should have never allowed myself to be sucked into that rabbit hole.
I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense. Properly configured the AR pistol is reasonable powerful (600+ FPE). They use excellent bullets, they are relatively quiet when compared to similar rifles. They have no muzzle flash. They cycle way faster than a comparable AR in 5.56 allowing for faster multiple hits on target.
I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense.
On this we can agree.
Did you read what I posted? I am using contract ammo, 155 grain JHP's @ 1200 FPS from a 4.5" BBL. If I really wanted to play I would get some 135 Grain Underwood. I am not trying to start a fight here. I am saying that a 155 grain 40 caliber HST @ 1300 FPS is better than a 22 caliber rifle bullet @ 2000 FPS for Self Defense. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am that wrong. All you guys are looking at is jello and numbers on paper. I have seen real people shot. Yes the 5.56 from a carbine within 75 yards is devastating, from an 8" BBL you get what 1/2 the velocity? The rifle bullet NEEDS velocity.
If you look at the pic I posted, the 50gr tsx is going 2500fps out if a 8” barrel. The round does not go 5kfps out of any barrel, so no- its not half. Dont change the argument. I dont see 155gr hst on Docs approved list.
Ok guys you win. I admit I was wrong. Pistols calibers in any configuration are less powerful than rifle calibers in any configuration. I should have never allowed myself to be sucked into that rabbit hole.
I do however feel that the pistol caliber carbine or AR pistol in a pistol caliber is a very viable weapon for home defense and basic self defense. Properly configured the AR pistol is reasonable powerful (600+ FPE). They use excellent bullets, they are relatively quiet when compared to similar rifles. They have no muzzle flash. They cycle way faster than a comparable AR in 5.56 allowing for faster multiple hits on target.
And no place, did anyone say otherwise in this thread. Viable, of course. Really seems like you had jumped into the thread without reading it fully assuming it was claimed a sub gun was not a viable option.
If you look at the pic I posted, the 50gr tsx is going 2500fps out if a 8” barrel. The round does not go 5kfps out of any barrel, so no- its not half. Dont change the argument. I dont see 155gr hst on Docs approved list.
I don't care who's list its on. I do not believe it is in current production. I don't worship jello.
I don't care who's list its on.
Yeah I know more than one of the country’s (world’s?) foremost ballistic experts too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Man, some people just like to argue and are unwilling to admit when they are AFU.
Not worth the effort sometimes.
Yoni hits it out of the park (as usual).
RioGrandeGreen
09-06-18, 23:15
Fed 155 HST has put plenty of bad guys down.
indianalex01
09-07-18, 01:19
Fed 155 HST has put plenty of bad guys down.
Yes 40cal is great but it isn’t even close to 5.56mm. Come on.
Fed 155 HST has put plenty of bad guys down.
So has .38spl, way more than Fed 155 HST.
.32 acp has put down hundreds of thousands.
Most of them Jews on their knees.
Does this mean I will carry it to defend my life, nope
Untold numbers of thousands have been dropped with 9mm ball.
Does this mean I will carry it to defend my life, yep no problem.
I have seen it work.
I just don't understand the American mind, we always want to have the best, and we are obsessed with this.
This is a great mind set for building a great country.
But when it comes to calibers, we can't wrap our mind around the fact that the best really doesn't exist.
Their is terrible and as far as I am concerned satisfactory, when it comes to calibers.
Outside the USA, professionals take the caliber they are issued and get on with the job of killing bad guys. I know one police officer in Africa that has survived and won somewhere around 70 gun fights with a 3" Ruger revolver with round nose .38 specials. Some of the guys he killed had AK 47's and were shooting at him.
So if you are in your home, behind cover with a 9mm or better long gun (including rifle calibers) when an armed bad guy frames himself in your bed room door. Relax, shooting the most accurately that you can, until he drops.
It really is simple, don't get all worked up over this stuff. I promise you one thing. The caliber of gun you have in your hands will have less to do with you winning a gun fight than tactics and shot placement.
Fed 155 HST has put plenty of bad guys down.
Well that settles that! :stop:
indianalex01
09-08-18, 00:26
.32 acp has put down hundreds of thousands.
Most of them Jews on their knees.
Does this mean I will carry it to defend my life, nope
Untold numbers of thousands have been dropped with 9mm ball.
Does this mean I will carry it to defend my life, yep no problem.
I have seen it work.
I just don't understand the American mind, we always want to have the best, and we are obsessed with this.
This is a great mind set for building a great country.
But when it comes to calibers, we can't wrap our mind around the fact that the best really doesn't exist.
Their is terrible and as far as I am concerned satisfactory, when it comes to calibers.
Outside the USA, professionals take the caliber they are issued and get on with the job of killing bad guys. I know one police officer in Africa that has survived and won somewhere around 70 gun fights with a 3" Ruger revolver with round nose .38 specials. Some of the guys he killed had AK 47's and were shooting at him.
So if you are in your home, behind cover with a 9mm or better long gun (including rifle calibers) when an armed bad guy frames himself in your bed room door. Relax, shooting the most accurately that you can, until he drops.
It really is simple, don't get all worked up over this stuff. I promise you one thing. The caliber of gun you have in your hands will have less to do with you winning a gun fight than tactics and shot placement.
Using the Jews on their knees taking a bulling in nthe Head. Women and children was in very poor taste. No class or respect. Shameful thing to use as an example. Delete that crap.
Using the Jews on their knees taking a bulling in nthe Head. Women and children was in very poor taste. No class or respect. Shameful thing to use as an example. Delete that crap.
It is entirely accurate. Plus, he probably has a better perspective on all of the stuff that he's talking about than most other people on this board.
Yes 40cal is great but it isn’t even close to 5.56mm. Come on.
If you put the 40 in a longer barrel and a 5.56 in a shorter barrel. That is the point I was attempting to make. The energy figures converge, at that point the benefit goes to the bigger, heavier bullet.
So has .38spl, way more than Fed 155 HST.
Before penicillin. If you use that logic just infect them with the flu.
Using the Jews on their knees taking a bulling in nthe Head. Women and children was in very poor taste. No class or respect. Shameful thing to use as an example. Delete that crap.
To be blunt, how do you think Jim Cirrillo and the NYPD stakeout squad killed so many robbers with RN and WC in 38? They ambushed them and shot them in the head, usually from behind. It works.
Outside the USA, professionals take the caliber they are issued and get on with the job of killing bad guys. I know one police officer in Africa that has survived and won somewhere around 70 gun fights with a 3" Ruger revolver with round nose .38 specials. Some of the guys he killed had AK 47's and were shooting at him.
So if you are in your home, behind cover with a 9mm or better long gun (including rifle calibers) when an armed bad guy frames himself in your bed room door. Relax, shooting the most accurately that you can, until he drops.
It really is simple, don't get all worked up over this stuff. I promise you one thing. The caliber of gun you have in your hands will have less to do with you winning a gun fight than tactics and shot placement.
Absolutely, it has always been the Indian, not the arrow. To be honest, the real professionals in this country are the same. The internet has given a voice and immortality to so many "experts" that have a limited experience.
Using the Jews on their knees taking a bulling in nthe Head. Women and children was in very poor taste. No class or respect. Shameful thing to use as an example. Delete that crap.
Taste is something I use in talking about great Scotch, Food, and Rum.
Jewish women and children on their knees in front of a trench getting a 32 acp round in the back of their head, is a historical fact.
It is a fact that has driven me all my life, along with family members and friends that either were murdered or fell in defense of the only place in the world where we have our destiny in our hands.
Shameful is a word I would attach to many other things;
1. Support for Palestinians
2. Assault on Trump by the media and both political parties.
3. The fact that on any given minute 75,000 people are watching child porn on the internet.
4. Mixing a $300 dollar bottle of scotch with Coke
Using the Jews on their knees taking a bulling in nthe Head. Women and children was in very poor taste. No class or respect. Shameful thing to use as an example. Delete that crap.
It's an accurate assessment and proper context to the thread. He's right.
terminal ballistics and other tangental arguments aside, returning to the question of "9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?" -
i might suggest instead a suppressed hi-cap 9mm handgun with one-hand-operational rail light/laser. this tool more easily allows use of the off-hand to open/close doors, assist family members, use a cell phone, flip lights on/off, etc, and at the same time can help ID perpetrators/friendlies, protect valuable hearing, and is more acceptable in court than the more politically-incorrect-looking PCC/SMG/SBR for potential after-incident trials.
.
MountainRaven
09-09-18, 14:23
terminal ballistics and other tangental arguments aside, returning to the question of "9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?" -
i might suggest instead a suppressed hi-cap 9mm handgun with one-hand-operational rail light/laser. this tool more easily allows use of the off-hand to open/close doors, assist family members, use a cell phone, flip lights on/off, etc, and at the same time can help ID perpetrators/friendlies, protect valuable hearing, and is more acceptable in court than the more politically-incorrect-looking PCC/SMG/SBR for potential after-incident trials.
It's also much, much harder to use and get good, accurate, consistent hits with than a PCC, SBR, pseudo-subgun, big-braced pistol, or whatever. Hence, "9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?"
for the novice, sure!
but for the serious "student" of this martial art (i've been one for close to five decades), not so much at room distances.
for me, the pluses i listed outweigh the slight increase of hit probability.
your mileage may differ, which is why we have individual choices.
MountainRaven
09-09-18, 15:19
for the novice, sure!
but for the serious "student" of this martial art (i've been one for close to five decades), not so much at room distances.
for me, the pluses i listed outweigh the slight increase of hit probability.
your mileage may differ, which is why we have individual choices.
I can think of at least one, "serious student," who has posted in this thread who would disagree with you.
i would hope for lots of disagreement, that is what an open forum is about.
the way i saw it, the OP specifically wished varied opinions (not dogma) regarding the right choice for home defense, not for use in military battles, police actions or armageddon.
with that in mind, once he survives the confrontation, in most jurisdictions he will likely be charged with a crime. having personally spent countless hours/years in courtrooms (retired criminal investigator), i think its preferred that the prosecution not make a huge deal out of the firearm that the defendant chose. like it or not, many folks (read: juries) don’t accept the base concept of self defense and believe that ownership of evil-looking firearms are a sign of a bad person.
while i own/practice constantly with my shouldered and braced firearms, i personally don’t believe using them are in my best interest for home defense and its aftermath.
so, could a suppressed 9mm subgun be used successfully "in the role of home defense/room clearing”? of course, but there are other things one might wish to consider before doing so.
.
for the novice, sure!
but for the serious "student" of this martial art (i've been one for close to five decades), not so much at room distances.
for me, the pluses i listed outweigh the slight increase of hit probability.
your mileage may differ, which is why we have individual choices.
I'm far from a BTDT type, but in low light classes I have taken, and shooting low light stages in IDPA with a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other, you'll see plenty of shooters who were far from novices fail to make effective hits on targets in HD distances, targets not moving nor shooting at you... I don't know a thing about your background/training/experience, but I do know plenty of solid shooters who find it very challenging to make hits under such conditions. One should assume worst case scenarios, which means low light, moving targets, who may be shooting at you.
terminal ballistics and other tangental arguments aside, returning to the question of "9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?" -
i might suggest instead a suppressed hi-cap 9mm handgun with one-hand-operational rail light/laser. this tool more easily allows use of the off-hand to open/close doors, assist family members, use a cell phone, flip lights on/off, etc, and at the same time can help ID perpetrators/friendlies, protect valuable hearing,and is more acceptable in court than the more politically-incorrect-looking PCC/SMG/SBR for potential after-incident trials.
Know your state laws. Most states that is not an issue.
.[/QUOTE]
...with a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other, you'll see plenty of shooters who were far from novices fail to make effective hits on targets in HD distances...
thanks for pointing out why a rail mounted light/laser is a nice addition
Know your state laws. Most states that is not an issue.
Sorry if I didn't make myself understand, but in my comment, laws are not the issue, its the mindset of the DA and jury that may be a problem.
It's also much, much harder to use and get good, accurate, consistent hits with than a PCC, SBR, pseudo-subgun, big-braced pistol, or whatever. Hence, "9mm Subgun Viable for Home Defense?"
I respectfully disagree. I was shooting a Ruger PCC yesterday and put 10 shots in a 3" group @ 15 yards in 2.5 seconds.
thanks for pointing out why a rail mounted light/laser is a nice addition
I saw what you wrote, and the difference is not what you assume it is, and people trained up to use them in each hand, do fine. Some in the biz do not favor light mounted flashlights for various reasons. I go back and forth on that one.
with that in mind, once he survives the confrontation, in most jurisdictions he will likely be charged with a crime. having personally spent countless hours/years in courtrooms (retired criminal investigator), i think its preferred that the prosecution not make a huge deal out of the firearm that the defendant chose. like it or not, many folks (read: juries) don’t accept the base concept of self defense and believe that ownership of evil-looking firearms are a sign of a bad person.
while i own/practice constantly with my shouldered and braced firearms, i personally don’t believe using them are in my best interest for home defense and its aftermath.
so, could a suppressed 9mm subgun be used successfully "in the role of home defense/room clearing”? of course, but there are other things one might wish to consider before doing so.
.
Let me guess... You are on the left or right coast.
My experience is pretty much the opposite in states with castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Even 39 states have varying degrees of qualified immunity for self defense.
I saw what you wrote, and the difference is not what you assume it is, and people trained up to use them in each hand, do fine. Some in the biz do not favor light mounted flashlights for various reasons. I go back and forth on that one.
Point taken on the type of light we chose, that only a handheld should be used for navigation and ID, reserving the rail light for actual self defense situations.
Guys, what's the problem here? We're lucky, we can all use what we like, the way we like. I was just mentioning issues the OP might take into consideration before making his choose.
Let me guess... You are on the left or right coast.
My experience is pretty much the opposite in states with castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Even 39 states have varying degrees of qualified immunity for self defense.
Nope, I'm 100% heartland (no need for personal slams).
But in some bigger cities (even in Texas), its possible for a reasonable person to be convicted of homicide, not withstanding the castle doctrine. So why not take advantage of appearing as responsible and as "PC" as you can, particularly when you have to defend the dead body in your living room?
I use both WM and handheld lights as appropriate. Lights make wonderful bullet magnets.
MountainRaven
09-09-18, 16:22
I respectfully disagree. I was shooting a Ruger PCC yesterday and put 10 shots in a 3" group @ 15 yards in 2.5 seconds.
So you can shoot a handgun that puts 10 shots into less than 3 inches at fifteen yards in less than 2.5 seconds?
Nope, I'm 100% heartland (no need for personal slams).
But in some bigger cities (even in Texas), its possible for a reasonable person to be convicted of homicide, not withstanding the castle doctrine. So why not take advantage of appearing as responsible and as "PC" as you can, particularly when you have to defend the dead body in your living room?
Personal slam? That I implied that you lived is a liberal area? I live in one of the most conservative states in the nation, by choice.
I will use what works best for me. I could care less about PC, but I don't have controversial artwork on my guns. I don't have to defend anything about shooting someone in my house. In the state I live in currently (North Dakota), it is prima facia evidence that someone means you harm if they use any force to enter your house. That is why I say that people know their state laws.
So you can shoot a handgun that puts 10 shots into less than 3 inches at fifteen yards in less than 2.5 seconds?
Do you know what a PCC is?
So you can shoot a handgun that puts 10 shots into less than 3 inches at fifteen yards in less than 2.5 seconds?
Excuse me, I missed the "than" no reason to be snarky, especially when I was trying to be nice.
If you are really worried about being persecuted because you have a prosecutor that has a history of engaging in such actions, rather than the facts of the case I have a solution.
If I lived in such a place, I would get a Ruger 10-22.
If you are behind cover and you have forced the bad guy to come to you. Then he is in your fatal funnel, heads shots with a 1022 will work.
Feraldog,
I would suggest trying a short PCC (or pistol with brace) with a 17rnd mag vs a pistol for one handed operations, such as opening doors. I don’t think that a regular handgun has much advantage there. I’ve got a 9mm with an 8in barrel that pretty much feels like a toy while doing those things.
If you are really worried about being persecuted because you have a prosecutor that has a history of engaging in such actions, rather than the facts of the case I have a solution....
While some areas are worse than others for this problem, even in the right places DAs change mid-stream, police/investigators may see incidents differently than you did, recent national incidents might influence jury beliefs, the dead guy on your floor may be the son of a powerful local person who wants you to pay, a missed round could hit a neighbor kid, etc
Just because a person believes they will be justified in a home defense situation, it doesn't always end happily. Innocent folks end up in prison too, so why give them something that effects them emotionally to use against you?
Sure, everyone has the right to dress like a hood, have swastika tattoos on their forehead, et al. But when time comes to face a jury, its always a good idea to talk nice, dress up in suits and cover questionable tats if possible. Don't give them reason to doubt you by having the jury affected by the firearm you picked.
Feraldog,
I would suggest trying a short PCC (or pistol with brace) with a 17rnd mag vs a pistol for one handed operations, such as opening doors. I don’t think that a regular handgun has much advantage there. I’ve got a 9mm with an 8in barrel that pretty much feels like a toy while doing those things.
Thanks for offering that. Yep, I do have PCCs like that (ie: 4" AR9, braced and canned), have spent time doing those kind of operations, and found both very do-able. The choice is ours to make.
Again, I was just offering the OP things to think about that hadn't been mentioned.
.
I am not the one that is worried about which weapon I use to defend myself.
I have a rifle beside my bed with 2 30 round mags in it. I have places in 2 states, one that doesn't care cause it is still normal and the other state is very anti gun. I still keep a black rifle besides my bed in the anti state.
I am also maybe the only person here that has shot people with a .22.
Shot placement matters in all firearms, with a .22 it matters more, but rest assured you put the rounds where they need to go it works.
I am also maybe the only person here that has shot people with a .22.
When I was a kid in the early 70's I shot a guy with my BB gun who was assaulting my brother with a knife. It had the desired effect at the time, it was all I had.
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