Inconsistencies using XL650 and Little Crow WFT

[MWAG19919]

Hi everyone!

So I recently bought 2,000 Lake City once-fired brass from Brass Bombers. The brass comes cleaned, decapped, and the primer pockets have been swaged. All the reloader needs to do is size, trim, and load.

Well, I thought I’d make short work of it all by sizing on my XL650. I used an RCBS Short Base FL sizing die from their AR die set. The sized cases were all within the goldilocks zone of the Lyman case gauge (which I realize is only a qualitative measurement), so I thought everything was peachy. Problems arose, however, when my dad attempted to trim this brass using the Little Crow WFT. Of the first 6 cases (5 LC12 & 1 LC08) case lengths range from 1.752" to 1.758".

I’m confident that he knows how to use the WFT; he’s used it to trim thousands of cases to +/- .002” before, but those were of the same headstamp (LC16) and were all sized on a single stage press.

I’m not sure what is causing the inconsistency, so I thought you guys & gals could point me in the right direction. Is it an inherent inconsistency in the XL650? The shellplate is about as tight as it can be without getting resistance from the bolt. The die was screwed in and secured tightly with a Hornady lock ring. Cases were lubed with DCL.

I really don’t want to trim 2k brass on a Forster hand trimmer guys...

[shadowrider]

Did you lube the inside of the necks? I've had issues in the past with pulling the shoulder back out. That could be your inconsistency. My fix was to use a Dillon sizing die, it has a carbide expander ball and has very short engagement with the neck. Totally solved my issue. You might try pulling your decapping rod completely out since they are decapped and see what happens. If you are not loading precision loads and use boat tail bullets there's really no need to expand it back out anyway.

[Coal Dragger]

Pull the de-capping rod out.

If you need to de-cap use a universal de-capping die in station 1.

You can expand the case neck on the final load toolhead with a Lyman M neck expander die.

[markm]

If you have an expander ball in the die. That's probably the issue. Like Coal Dragger mentioned... I expand my necks on a separate die. I use the RCBS neck expander.

On the other hand... if it's blasting ammo, who cares? Just run it. If you're making target ammo, it's worth the extra effort to neck expand separately.


I do like to leave the decap pin in my sizing die so that there's always something ensuring that the flash hole isn't obstructed.

[bigedp51]

If you had a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge you would know where and what is causing the variations.

I spray my cases in a large zip lock with a home made lanolin and alcohol mix. And then work the bag with my hands to spread the lube and the majority of the inside of the necks get lubed. Meaning the lubed case necks do not pull hard and move the shoulders.

https://i.imgur.com/OJqNmQH.jpg

[miyagi]

I had the same problem when I started with the XL650 and on mine it was the shellplate not snugged down properly. I test it with my thumb every once in awhile and if I feel movement then I adjust it because it will come loose.
This also caused a high primer problem

[Coal Dragger]

Could be another culprit. I almost immediately ordered a new bushing for the shellplate and retention bolt that has roller bearings which I then applied grease to. Allows virtually all slop to be taken out and still allows free rotation of the shell plate. Well worth the money, and a very easy upgrade.

[markm]

I'm not tracking on the shell plate. I mean... on my 550b, the shell plate simply pulls the case out of each die. The case is pushed in by the press. Play in the shell plate should have nothing to do with causing variances in brass.

[mgrs]

I've had brass of the same manufacturer and lot come out different OALs if fired through different guns. Example would be FC brass from a pre-xtraxn OBR and post-xtraxn tOBR. If the trimmer was set up for the regular chamber OBR, the xtraxn brass came out a reliable .005-008 too long- probably stretching a little on the way back out as it sized a lot harder.

As mentioned above, I find an M type die does a much better job than one that pulls the ball back through.


I'm not tracking on the shell plate. I mean... on my 550b, the shell plate simply pulls the case out of each die. The case is pushed in by the press. Play in the shell plate should have nothing to do with causing variances in brass.

Should be the case; I trim with just a bit of cam-over contrary to dillion's instructions. It just barely bumps the shoulder far enough as is.

Would like to get the lanolin/alcohol recipe from whoever is using it.

[bigedp51]

Hi everyone!

So I recently bought 2,000 Lake City once-fired brass from Brass Bombers. I used an RCBS Short Base FL sizing die from their AR die set. The sized cases were all within the goldilocks zone of the Lyman case gauge (which I realize is only a qualitative measurement), so I thought everything was peachy. Problems arose, however, when my dad attempted to trim this brass using the Little Crow WFT. Of the first 6 cases (5 LC12 & 1 LC08) case lengths range from 1.752" to 1.758".



You bought 2,000 once fired Lake City 5.56 cases that were fired in a multitude of chambers, and you sized them and wonder why you have different case lengths when using a WFT trimmer.

Answer, brass spring back after sizing, meaning the cases want to "spring back" to their fired size in the chamber they were fired in.

NOTE, If you pause at the top of the ram stroke for 4 to 5 seconds it reduces brass spring back. Meaning pausing lets the brass know who is the boss and to stay put after sizing.

I buy brass from Brass Bombers like you do that has been fired in rifles with different headspace settings. And since my brass is fired in three different AR15 rifles I still have the same problem. The only time you will have uniform length brass is if it is only fired in your rifle and is from the same lot and manufacture.

Below the distance from the GO gauge to the Field gauge is approximately .010, and then some of the brass could have been fired in a M249 machine gun with even more headspace variations. Bottom line, as long as you are trimming off the shoulder location you will have variations in case length. But just remember if the cases were trimmed from the base of the case to the case mouth and you measured the shoulder location they would still be different headspace lengths.

https://i.imgur.com/3gDuoIx.jpg

[nobletitus]

I agree with this 100% ^^^^
I had a WFT trimmer and would chase the coal all over, adjusting back and forth. I got a Frankfort Arsenal trimmer which bases off the shoulder as well. Same result, but I paid extra attention to the brass. The brass would come out consistent, depending on the headstamps (mixed brass - various collected) and I came to the conclusion it was rifle chamber differences. Since I began using more of my own brass (fired in my own gun) versus a hodgepodge, the consistency was more obvious. If you look at the shoulders and neck of 223/556 brass, you can see some extremes of well-defined sharp lines/angles and some brass just seems rounded at the shoulder edges.

[bigedp51]

The ejector pushes the case forward in the chamber until the case shoulder contacts the chambers shoulder. This means since the WFT trims off the case shoulder the case mouth is in the same position every time.

What is actually varying in the chamber is your head clearance because the shoulders are not at the same location.

Below if you trim off the base of the case and have variations in the shoulder location the position of the case mouth will vary. And if you use the WFT trimmer the case mouth will be in the same position because the case shoulder stops forward movment.

https://i.imgur.com/RDNXFbN.png

What does change when your cartridge headspace varies after sizing is the head clearance or the "air space" between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

Bottom line, if you use a WFT case trimmer the case mouth location does not vary in the chamber and only your head clearance varies. The ejector and firing push the case forward, the cartridge goes bang and the rear of the case stretches to contact the bolt face. And the softer annealed case neck never moves and are held in position by chamber pressure.

https://i.imgur.com/HK76WCp.jpg