View Full Version : Army M4 Carbine Can Fire Even If You Don't Pull the Trigger
platoonDaddy
06-02-18, 05:19
Didn't see another thread on this issue. Why would one place the selector switch between settings?
The U.S. Army’s standard service weapon, the M4A1 carbine, has a defect that allows it to discharge a round without actually pulling the trigger. The flaw was caught on video earlier this year by a soldier at a shooting range, and testing by the Army has detected nearly a thousand weapons affected by the problem.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a21052857/army-m4-carbine-firing-defect/
Another article: https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/05/31/this-malfunction-has-the-army-inspecting-its-m4s-and-m16s/
Coal Dragger
06-02-18, 09:29
Because one is a moron?
vicious_cb
06-02-18, 11:04
Is it drop safe too? :rolleyes:
Why would one place the selector switch between settings?
Commitment issues.
Im confused. They talk about the bcg slamming home. Is this a slam fire? Can anyone explain exactly what they are talking about?
Are they putting it between semi and auto, pulling the trigger, then moving it to auto?
Commitment issues.
Nice.
Im confused. They talk about the bcg slamming home. Is this a slam fire? Can anyone explain exactly what they are talking about?
Are they putting it between semi and auto, pulling the trigger, then moving it to auto?
There’s a video on it somewhere. My understanding is that the switch can be placed halfway between semi and auto and the trigger pulled, nothing will happen but when the switch is moved to either semi or auto after that pull, the gun will fire.
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platoonDaddy
06-02-18, 13:07
Nice.
There’s a video on it somewhere. My understanding is that the switch can be placed halfway between semi and auto and the trigger pulled, nothing will happen but when the switch is moved to either semi or auto after that pull, the gun will fire.
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I have searched for the video referenced in the article, but no luck. One would think if the M16A2 and A3 were part of the problem we would have known it before now.
EDIT: Army times article on same subject, answers my questions about the M16
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/05/31/this-malfunction-has-the-army-inspecting-its-m4s-and-m16s/
Commitment issues.
Winner.
LMT Shooter
06-02-18, 18:23
I read the article. If I understand what it says, this involves the selector being moved from safe to a position it should not be in (between semi & auto), the trigger is pulled while the selector is in between semi & auto- not on safe- and the weapon fires, not at the pull of the trigger, but when the selector is moved to either semi or auto. Regardless of the precise moment the weapon fires, how is the weapon firing under these circumstances a "malfunction" or "unintended discharge"? It's NOT on safe and the trigger is pulled, it's supposed to fire. Not putting the selector in either of the two appropriate positions for firing isn't a malfunction, it's operator error, unless the selector is not moving as it should. I didn't see anything saying the selectors are not moving as they are supposed to when pushed.
I read the article. If I understand what it says, this involves the selector being moved from safe to a position it should not be in (between semi & auto), the trigger is pulled while the selector is in between semi & auto- not on safe- and the weapon fires, not at the pull of the trigger, but when the selector is moved to either semi or auto. Regardless of the precise moment the weapon fires, how is the weapon firing under these circumstances a "malfunction" or "unintended discharge"? It's NOT on safe and the trigger is pulled, it's supposed to fire. Not putting the selector in either of the two appropriate positions for firing isn't a malfunction, it's operator error, unless the selector is not moving as it should. I didn't see anything saying the selectors are not moving as they are supposed to when pushed.
It doesn’t fire when the trigger is pulled. You pull the trigger and then once the selector is moved from the middle to either semi or auto, then the gun fires. That’s absolutely an unintended discharge.
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LMT Shooter
06-02-18, 20:51
Deliberately moving the selector off safe and deliberately pulling the trigger is an unintended discharge?
Would you agree that not getting the selector to a fully proper position, be it safe, semi, or auto, is operator error?
Again, if the selector is not moving &/or operating as it should, that is a malfunction, but that's not the what I'm reading in the articles.
It doesn't fire when the trigger is pulled, there's a delay until after the selector is moved again. So the trigger can be pulled while the weapon is in a safe direction, moved off target, the selector bumped into a different position, and then it discharges.
50 years of the M16/M4 family and this is the first occurrence of this?
LMT Shooter
06-02-18, 22:11
It doesn't fire when the trigger is pulled, there's a delay until after the selector is moved again. So the trigger can be pulled while the weapon is in a safe direction, moved off target, the selector bumped into a different position, and then it discharges.
That's pretty much what I first posted, so we agree on that. I still don't see how taking it off safe & pulling the trigger creates an unintended discharge. The term malfunction may apply, if some parts aren't doing what they're supposed to do when used properly, but if you don't use the selector, trigger, charging handle, forward assist, or mag release in the manner they were designed, that's operator error. Take away the operator error and you have no malfunction in this case, or so it would seem. Maybe some parts are out of spec & defective, but to me this is like figuring out how to throw an AR pattern weapon hard enough to make the firing pin hit the primer, causing it to fire, and saying it's a malfunction.
Can someone hold their thumb on the forward assist while firing and declare it to be a faulty weapon because it doesn't cycle?
LMT Shooter
06-02-18, 22:13
50 years of the M16/M4 family and this is the first occurrence of this?
Johnny Knoxville became famous by doing dumb shit that nobody had done before.
That's pretty much what I first posted, so we agree on that. I still don't see how taking it off safe & pulling the trigger creates an unintended discharge. The term malfunction may apply, if some parts aren't doing what they're supposed to do when used properly, but if you don't use the selector, trigger, charging handle, forward assist, or mag release in the manner they were designed, that's operator error. Take away the operator error and you have no malfunction in this case, or so it would seem. Maybe some parts are out of spec & defective, but to me this is like figuring out how to throw an AR pattern weapon hard enough to make the firing pin hit the primer, causing it to fire, and saying it's a malfunction.
Can someone hold their thumb on the forward assist while firing and declare it to be a faulty weapon because it doesn't cycle?
The gun discharges after the moment the trigger is pulled, when the selector is moved. From the moment the trigger is pulled and nothing happens, It will be a failure to fire, until the selector is moved to FA. When it discharges, the operator does not intend to discharge the weapon by moving the selector so it is an Un-intended discharge at that point.
LMT Shooter
06-02-18, 23:40
I'm willing to admit that if people do something stupid with a weapon, then stupid things may happen. I call that operator error in this case, given the info I got from the links. If that's a malfunction or unintended discharge to everyone else posting, then OK, I'll concede that point for this thread.
What I'm trying to say is that a jackass may indeed have more problems (malfunctions and unintended discharges) than normal people doing normal things correctly. I would like to solicit responses on my other point, which is that nothing indicates that the weapons in this situation are experiencing these malfunctions or unintended discharges when operated correctly?
RobertTheTexan
06-03-18, 00:34
Commitment issues.
Mark,
I hope you don’t mund but I think I just found my new signature block. This is the best oneliner response I’ve read in weeks!!!
https://s20.postimg.cc/a6fl23kxp/4_F592368-_AD13-483_A-_B91_E-08_B8_D103_A11_D.jpg
People who haven't screwed something up haven't done it enough.
If a weapon firing when a selector is moved is acceptable, carry on.
The gun discharges after the moment the trigger is pulled, when the selector is moved. From the moment the trigger is pulled and nothing happens, It will be a failure to fire, until the selector is moved to FA. When it discharges, the operator does not intend to discharge the weapon by moving the selector so it is an Un-intended discharge at that point.
This, but apparently that is hard to understand. :D
Doc Safari
06-04-18, 09:24
nevermind
This sounds to me to be eerily similar to the Remington 700 problems years ago. I'll make a point of asking Iraqgunz about this in a couple weeks when I take his class. Are these lowers ending up out of spec somehow?
HelloLarry
06-06-18, 07:24
Would you agree that not getting the selector to a fully proper position, be it safe, semi, or auto, is operator error?
Schitt happens and a good engineer designs with that in mind.
When you pull the trigger, the gun should either fire or not, not "save it for later". :rolleyes:
Schitt happens and a good engineer designs with that in mind.
When you pull the trigger, the gun should either fire or not, not "save it for later". :rolleyes:
Agreed.
How would people here feel if this happened when you pull the trigger when it's on SAFE, then when you click the selector to FIRE it gives you what you previously asked for?
Because I'm pretty sure EVERYONE here has done that, whether they admit it or not.
Agreed.
How would people here feel if this happened when you pull the trigger when it's on SAFE, then when you click the selector to FIRE it gives you what you previously asked for?
Because I'm pretty sure EVERYONE here has done that, whether they admit it or not.To me, that not the same. This only happens when in between positions. Usually the force it takes to overcome the detent causes the selector to "spring" forward. I would think for the selector to be between positions, something is wrong, or it was deliberately done. That being said, I have never flipped one from semi to full.
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LMT Shooter
06-06-18, 11:57
Schitt happens and a good engineer designs with that in mind.
When you pull the trigger, the gun should either fire or not, not "save it for later". :rolleyes:
You, and everyone else, are completely correct. I see clearly the error of my original thoughts on this. I got hung up on the idea, possibly incorrectly, that this issue came to light when folks were deliberately putting the selector in an inappropriate position with a "hold my beer, watch this" mentality, and couldn't get past that.
So I read this article and the plethora of follow on write ups and come away with...
1. Troop pulls the trigger when the selector is between semi and auto. Nothing happens.
2. Troop then switched to semi or auto and gun discharges.
3. This does not occur from safe to semi (or in between).
4. Eight to ten percent of tested rifles are affected indicating tolerance/maintenance issue versus the mythical "design flaw," no?
5. Once this hit the interwebs and the seeds of panic were sown....well, everyone in my agency has tested their semi-only rifles. 0% malfunctioned from safe to semi. Tested my two personal rifles. Same thing.
Definitely something to address but not the doomsday scenario pushed initially by some writers. Is there an additional PMCS step after this initial pass/fail or is a pass at this stage GTG?
platoonDaddy
06-09-18, 15:53
So I read this article and the plethora of follow on write ups and come away with...
1. Troop pulls the trigger when the selector is between semi and auto. Nothing happens.
2. Troop then switched to semi or auto and gun discharges.
3. This does not occur from safe to semi (or in between).
4. Eight to ten percent of tested rifles are affected indicating tolerance/maintenance issue versus the mythical "design flaw," no?
5. Once this hit the interwebs and the seeds of panic were sown....well, everyone in my agency has tested their semi-only rifles. 0% malfunctioned from safe to semi. Tested my two personal rifles. Same thing.
Definitely something to address but not the doomsday scenario pushed initially by some writers. Is there an additional PMCS step after this initial pass/fail or is a pass at this stage GTG?
As far as I know, just follow the new function test, plus new adjusted Immediate Action Drill. If you haven't, scroll down the the following link.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/05/31/this-malfunction-has-the-army-inspecting-its-m4s-and-m16s/
Is there an additional PMCS step after this initial pass/fail or is a pass at this stage GTG?
You’re talking about semi only rifles?
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Dr. Bullseye
06-10-18, 19:35
Deliberately moving the selector off safe and deliberately pulling the trigger is an unintended discharge?
Would you agree that not getting the selector to a fully proper position, be it safe, semi, or auto, is operator error?
Again, if the selector is not moving &/or operating as it should, that is a malfunction, but that's not the what I'm reading in the articles.
Wasn't it not firing when between positions when the trigger was pulled but then when the selector was on semi or auto, it fired without pulling the trigger---or do I have this wrong? If it fires without pulling the trigger this sounds like a broken selector AT LEAST. My AR won't do this.
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