Talk me out of 36 yard zero

[Bodhi]

I've read through most pages of the zero threads.

It's 2018, talk me out of a 36 yard zero.

I'm going to be shooting a 14.5" spikes barrel at ranges to 125 yards and this rifle will be for home defense. I'll be using a vortex uh1.

I know most people here were big fans of the 100 yard zero. Does this still hold true or are people changing?

[SamuelBLong]

I do think you’d be better served by a zero at 100 or the 50yd zero.

The ranges you’d be shooting your rifle to, with limited exposure targets, you wouldn’t have to think if you’re going to be too high or too low. Just center the dot/sights/crosshairs in the available target area and score a hit.

The 100 has always made the most sense to me because it forces you to hold high in CQB, and hold high when you get past 200.

At the end of the day, pick your zero, shoot at various ranges and learn what your offset is at each distance. Practice accordingly.



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[RHINOWSO]

At the end of the day, pick your zero, shoot at various ranges and learn what your offset is at each distance. Practice accordingly.


This.

Not gonna talk you out of anything.

Make a decision and live with it, not needing the approval of anyone else.

[26 Inf]

Biggest disadvantage is that @ 125 you'll be about 3.7 high, about 4.5 at 150, the highest point. (XM193) (XM885 essentially the same)

With the 100 yard zero, you are essentially never above line of sight, and at 200 yards you are about 2.7ish low, and it drops pretty steadily thereafter.

With 50 yard zero, you are less than 1.60 high at 125 yards and intersect line of sight again at 219 yards.

After listening to more knowledgeable folks on here, I generally run 100 yard zeros for scopes with BDC reticles, and 50 yard zero for red dots.

Here is a good link, I copied and saved this article a while back: https://azrifleman.com/basic-rifle-marksmanship-brm-series-twists-and-zeros/

[GH41]

I am a firm believer in a 50 yard zero for a home defence rifle. No more than a couple of inches high or low from the muzzle out to 225-250. No thinking needed.

[TomMcC]

I'm a big fan of the 50/200 zero with the right optic. If the optic has a BDC I roll with what the manufacturer recommends for that reticle. I like the 50/200 because of it's flatness to 300 yds. 1.5" high at 100 yds and about 8" low at 300 yds.

[C-grunt]

Im a big fan of the 50/200 (which is more like 50/225 most of the time) zero for real use carbine use. Its aim center mass, hit center mass, from 0 to 300 yards.

While a 36/300 yard zero is great for open land, I find it to have a higher than wanted POI over POA in the 75-150 yard range for a CQB type gun. If you are planning on shooting the majority of time within 125 yards I dont see a benefit of a 36/300 zero and actually see some decent minuses for it.

[26 Inf]

While a 36/300 yard zero is great for open land, I find it to have a higher than wanted POI over POI in the 75-150 yard range for a CQB type gun. If you are planning on shooting the majority of time within 125 yards I dont see a benefit of a 36/300 zero and actually see some decent minuses for it.

Great summary.

[Bodhi]

Im a big fan of the 50/200 (which is more like 50/225 most of the time) zero for real use carbine use. Its aim center mass, hit center mass, from 0 to 300 yards.

While a 36/300 yard zero is great for open land, I find it to have a higher than wanted POI over POA in the 75-150 yard range for a CQB type gun. If you are planning on shooting the majority of time within 125 yards I dont see a benefit of a 36/300 zero and actually see some decent minuses for it.

See. This is why I love this site.

I figured I'd ask opinions before going out tomorrow. I've only put 100 or so rounds through an AR before. I spend a lot of time with pistols (work reasons.)

Looking forward to this. Thanks. I'll be looking at holds tonight.

[TexasAggie2005]

I prefer simplicity, so I run a 100M zero for basically everything except irons. This way I never have to worry about holdunders, only holdover. Jack Leuba (aka Failure2Stop) with Knight's Armament did a compelling write-up for the 100M zero that convinced me of it's utility.

Zen of the 100M Zero (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?107572-Zen-of-the-100-Meter-Zero)

[MegademiC]

I went with a 50yd zero. I started with a 100, but realized a 50yd zero goes a max of 1.5” high around 110yds which will never matter, and it maximizes my range before holdovers are needed.

In your case, id go with 100 because there is no high and is dead on out to 125

The most important thing is knowing where rounds go at various ranges.

[jsbhike]

Have you played with a ballistic calculator? Worth your time if you haven't.

I like the 50yard/200meter zero best, but 100 yard may be best for your stayed 125 yard max....just run the numbers and make a decision or try both.

[voiceofreason]

For rifle usage that extends out past 200 yards regularly, I'd go 100.

For home defense, the 50 yard zero makes more sense to me. It'll still be useful out to 300/400 easily if you know your drops, but the least amount of thinking needed for a stressful situation inside of 225 yards.

Practice at different distances regardless.

[wtm75]

52361

[hk_shootr]

For my needs, the 50 yard zero works best for me.
I am about 1.2" low at 25, dead on at 50, 1.5" high at 100, and on again at about 220.

What works for ME, may not work for your needs. Assess the trajectory data and use a zero that is right for YOU.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The problem I see with these discussions is that they don't look at the reality of the sighting system and them ammo, and they treat things as points, not distributions.

I assume that we are talking about using a red dot, probably 2MOA. Some variant of M193 ammo?

So we know the dot is 2MOA, and you can't see in the thing. Plus for those of us with Astigmatism, the dot as usually used is a bit less crisp.

M193 ammo has a mean radius of about 1MOA, but the ES for a 10 shot group runs about 3 inches. Frankly, I think the 3 moa number is more relevant. Take 10 shots and they will be in there somewhere.

And that is all for a perfectly fixed gun- and an accurate one.

And that doesn't even get into the wobble of the shooter.

So I think those graphs need to have the sighting system limitations and ammo accuracy more built in in the form of distributions, not points.


Red cone for the red dot 'coverage' and black bars for typical distribution of shots.

52362

I know you can aim on the edge of the dot, but I'm trying to look at how it would actually work for most of us, shooting a red dot, offhand, in a time crunch.

[17K]

I zero at 200 and confirm POI at any other range I’m interested in. Generally 25,50, and 100.

[26 Inf]

I assume that we are talking about using a red dot, probably 2MOA. Some variant of M193 ammo?

M193 ammo has a mean radius of about 1MOA, but the ES for a 10 shot group runs about 3 inches. Frankly, I think the 3 moa number is more relevant. Take 10 shots and they will be in there somewhere.

Red cone for the red dot 'coverage' and black bars for typical distribution of shots.

I think this is great.

If I'm understanding your post, the red cone would be 1/2 the size for his 1 MOA Vortex UH1.

It looks like you used 3 MOA as the typical dispersion for the XM193, for the black bars. Would be accurate to extend the bars to 5 MOA for the 2 MOA dot, and 4 moa for the 1 MOA dot?

It would also be useful to shade the cones along the trajectory arc.

Sitting back and looking at the results - with the extensions as you posted and with the ones I surmised might be accurate for dot size - I still get the same results in terms of why I select 50 or 100 over 25 or 36 as a zero range. Although, I may be inclined to switch from jugular notch POA to sterum POA.

[Failure2Stop]

I'm going to be shooting a 14.5" spikes barrel at ranges to 125 yards and this rifle will be for home defense. I'll be using a vortex uh1.


This is basically the optimal range for a 100 yard zero.
Pretty much all you need to do is hold about 2" high from 0 to 25-35 or so (depending on ammo and velocity), and dead on past that, and you will be inside a 3" circle.
To have the same level of precision, with a 36 yard zero, you would need to have 0-15, 15-40, 40-65, 65-100, and 100-150 holds established.
100 is waaaaaaay easier.

[Renegade]

I've read through most pages of the zero threads.

It's 2018, talk me out of a 36 yard zero.

I'm going to be shooting a 14.5" spikes barrel at ranges to 125 yards and this rifle will be for home defense. I'll be using a vortex uh1.

I know most people here were big fans of the 100 yard zero. Does this still hold true or are people changing?

There is no magic number to zero.

Your zero should be based on what distances you want to shoot size/shape of targets you want to hit, acceptable MOA, fps of ammo, HOB of sight, etc. Then punch that into a ballistics calculator and find best zero. then go to range and confirm.

Without doing this, given you are only going to 125, I would zero for 100.

[MegademiC]

The problem I see with these discussions is that they don't look at the reality of the sighting system and them ammo, and they treat things as points, not distributions.

I assume that we are talking about using a red dot, probably 2MOA. Some variant of M193 ammo?

So we know the dot is 2MOA, and you can't see in the thing. Plus for those of us with Astigmatism, the dot as usually used is a bit less crisp.

M193 ammo has a mean radius of about 1MOA, but the ES for a 10 shot group runs about 3 inches. Frankly, I think the 3 moa number is more relevant. Take 10 shots and they will be in there somewhere.

And that is all for a perfectly fixed gun- and an accurate one.

And that doesn't even get into the wobble of the shooter.

So I think those graphs need to have the sighting system limitations and ammo accuracy more built in in the form of distributions, not points.


Red cone for the red dot 'coverage' and black bars for typical distribution of shots.

52362

I know you can aim on the edge of the dot, but I'm trying to look at how it would actually work for most of us, shooting a red dot, offhand, in a time crunch.


I made a similar graph before to use my 4moa dot- sight in at the too and use the bottom for “hold” overs out to 400.
It actually worked decently with 60gr vmax

[hk_shootr]

This is basically the optimal range for a 100 yard zero.
Pretty much all you need to do is hold about 2" high from 0 to 25-35 or so (depending on ammo and velocity), and dead on past that, and you will be inside a 3" circle.
To have the same level of precision, with a 36 yard zero, you would need to have 0-15, 15-40, 40-65, 65-100, and 100-150 holds established.
100 is waaaaaaay easier.

A solid recommendation, I may have to readdress my zero distance.