View Full Version : Army looking at 10 Commercial Sub guns...
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-14-18, 00:38
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/06/12/army-selects-10-commercial-subcompact-weapons-future-testing.html
Beretta USA Corporation for PMX subcompact weapon. Amount: $16,000.
Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC for CM9MM-9H-M5A, Colt Modular 9mm subcompact weapon. Amount: $22,000.
CMMG Inc. for Ultra PDW subcompact weapon. Amount: $8,500.
CZ-USA for Scorpion EVO 3 A1 submachine gun. Amount: $14,490.
Lewis Machine & Tool Company for MARS-L9 compact suppressed weapon. Amount: $21,900.
PTR Industries Inc. for PTR 9CS subcompact weapon. Amount: $12,060.
Quarter Circle 10 LLC 5.5 CLT and 5.5 QV5 subcompact weapons. Amount: $24,070.
Sig Sauer Inc. for MPX subcompact weapon. Amount: $20,160.
Trident Rifles LLC for B&T MP9 machine gun. Amount: $36,000.
Zenith Firearms for Z-5RS, Z-5P and Z-5K subcompact weapons. Amount: $39,060.
An MP-5 clone? This seems like more of a way to turn some 9mm ammo in spent brass for the hell of it.
Knights 6mm PDW OR DEATH!!!!
MountainRaven
06-14-18, 01:02
Two MP5 clones.
And no MP5s.
Seems odd. Particularly since H&K MP5s (and MP5Ks) have been in US military inventories for... a while.
Why in the Blue F would we buy a Turkish contract MP5 when factory German ones are available for damn near the same price? Unless it's just a way to bring an end to semi auto imports for US shooters because now they have a military contract.
From that list the only ones I'd consider are the Colt, SIG, B&T or the EVO. The Colt would make the most sense IF you weren't going with a factory MP5 for some reason that I can't even begin to understand. And why they aren't looking at the Knights PDW is even more baffling.
Maybe H&K is getting serious about discontinuing the MP5 series and the Army just isn't interested in the UMP or MP7. And in that case, Hans and Franz need to get back into the R&D stuff pronto to bring us the next generation SMG because the UMP was nice, but wasn't quite it and the MP7 is way too special use as a general purpose SMG.
Wouldn't it be nice if HK could marry the roller lock bolt of the MP5 with a new polymer platform available in both .45 and 9mm but in a package the size of the MP5 or better. Kind of like how they married Browning and Walther features for the ground breaking USP handgun series.
But honestly, given the limited use and need of a SMG anyway, the whole idea of searching for a new one is kinda bizarre, especially given some of the candidates. Somewhere Todd Bailey is looking at this list and his blood pressure is spiking hard.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-14-18, 02:40
This sounds like some Colonel's send off present before retirement.
Just read the Rifleman's article on the MP5 , they state that HK says that the recent MP5 tweaks are a mid-life improvement....
At least get the PSA MP5 clone in there for some real testing.
I agree on the modernized MP5. Something better on the mag swap and safety. I guess you'd have to get rid of the slap-charge feature.
Hey, I'd love to run a 3 gunish match with a new MP5 and a new double stack P7...
Article with more pictures.
https://www.range365.com/contenders-for-armys-new-submachine-gun#page-4
Surprised the B&T APC9 wasn't included but the MP9 was. Definitely an odd list..
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
I say bring back the grease gun... ;)
Dafuq for? More wasted money.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
RetroRevolver77
06-14-18, 12:48
I don't see a reason to adopt an AR type subgun when it would lack the only attribute a subgun truly has- which is being compact. An MP5 type is way to outdated. The CZ isn't what I would consider a serious use weapon. Maybe something new like the B&T if they are halfway serious about a modernizing the military. Eventually the whole military will be fielding HK 416 types anyway, so it would make sense to update to a more modern design in ancillary weapons now rather than later.
I don't see a reason to adopt an AR type subgun when it would lack the only attribute a subgun truly has- which is being compact. An MP5 type is way to outdated. The CZ isn't what I would consider a serious use weapon. Maybe something new like the B&T if they are halfway serious about a modernizing the military. Eventually the whole military will be fielding HK 416 types anyway, so it would make sense to update to a more modern design in ancillary weapons now rather than later.
Curious why you say that. Long term reliability unknowns or have you personally experienced short term reliability issues?
MountainRaven
06-14-18, 15:33
The MP5 is hardly out-dated.
And I'd bet the KAC PDW isn't in the running because it isn't in 9mm.
Ill bite, why would you want this over. 300blk? 9mm inventories?
Also surprized B&T wasnt on there.
Dionysusigma
06-14-18, 18:11
Ill bite, why would you want this over. 300blk? 9mm inventories?
Also surprized B&T wasnt on there.
Trident Rifles LLC for B&T MP9 machine gun. Amount: $36,000.
This list makes no sense, especially with so many contenders having the vestigial buffer tube from the AR design, negating the compactness (and thus best strength of an SMG).
"The acquisition of the SCW is essential in meeting the agency’s requirement to support Product Manager, Individual Weapons mission to assess commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) SCWs in order to fill a capability gap in lethality and concealability. The SCW are being procured for further evaluation and testing. This evaluation will help to inform current capabilities for the Capability Production Document for the Maneuver Support Center of Excellence. Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles, however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality. Failure to provide the selected SCW for assessment and evaluation will leave PSD military personnel with a capability gap which can result in increased war fighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission."
If they had any sense at all they'd update the UMP for 10mm and it would fit the bill perfectly. Half a security detail with those, and the other half with P90s, and that would cover almost every possible scenario an SMG would be needed for.
Ill bite, why would you want this over. 300blk? 9mm inventories?
Also surprized B&T wasnt on there.
Size, weight, ballistics & price.
Why would the Army spend money on a new item that is going to be dropped, dragged through the mud, thrown into a closet, locked away, tapped up on a FOB, and never shot? There are plenty of A2s for that.......... what a waist.
The MP5 is hardly out-dated.
And I'd bet the KAC PDW isn't in the running because it isn't in 9mm.
Hardly outdated? Perhaps.
We have them at work and imo the things are relics. Literally nothing I would pick it for over a 5.56 shorty.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hardly outdated? Perhaps.
We have them at work and imo the things are relics. Literally nothing I would pick it for over a 5.56 shorty.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is very true. I have used them and there are not too many weapons that I would not take over an MP5. I actually took an underfolder AK over a MP5 once.
The MP5 is hardly out-dated.
And I'd bet the KAC PDW isn't in the running because it isn't in 9mm.
Forgot the 9mm part. And while the MP5 is stamped steel 1960s tech, it's still outclassing most of the options a half century later. Perhaps this is nothing more than the Army confirming there still isn't a better mousetrap.
I still dream of the MP5/45.
It's interesting none of the contenders use Glock mags.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-15-18, 01:14
It's interesting none of the contenders use Glock mags.
While I would like that, why not extended Sig P320 mags, standards in a pinch?
MountainRaven
06-15-18, 01:33
Hardly outdated? Perhaps.
We have them at work and imo the things are relics. Literally nothing I would pick it for over a 5.56 shorty.
That is very true. I have used them and there are not too many weapons that I would not take over an MP5. I actually took an underfolder AK over a MP5 once.
All of which is great, but none of the alternatives mentioned are in 9mm. And if I'm, "stuck," with a 9mm subgun or PCC, I can't think of a whole lot of them I'd rather have than an MP5.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-15-18, 01:48
Is it that the MP5 was the best of class when the sub-gun went out of favor and new ones weren't a priority for big contracts?
All of which is great, but none of the alternatives mentioned are in 9mm. And if I'm, "stuck," with a 9mm subgun or PCC, I can't think of a whole lot of them I'd rather have than an MP5.
The main issue is that the people that are more than likely to get this will not be trigger pullers...... If it has to me a 9MM then the Colt is really the only logical choice. The same basic system of operation. Let's be real, most of those that would get it would not even be able to figure out how to cock a MP5.
sundance435
06-15-18, 10:10
Wouldn't a Glock 18 with a FAB stock work just as well as any of these? Off that list, the B&T is the only one that makes any sense for an ultra-concealable SMG. Hell, might as well go with a Mac-10. That being said, I'd love to have a Beretta PMX.
Moose-Knuckle
06-15-18, 11:41
Wouldn't a Glock 18 with a FAB stock work just as well as any of these? Off that list, the B&T is the only one that makes any sense for an ultra-concealable SMG. Hell, might as well go with a Mac-10. That being said, I'd love to have a Beretta PMX.
Beretta 93R's are 5x5.
The main issue is that the people that are more than likely to get this will not be trigger pullers...... If it has to me a 9MM then the Colt is really the only logical choice. The same basic system of operation. Let's be real, most of those that would get it would not even be able to figure out how to cock a MP5.
You have a better handle on Military PSD's for high value personnel, but I would ass-u-me they do get some training, correct?
Running an MP5 effectively is not rocket science.
Additionally, the requirement is for improved concealment potential over the rifle. AFAIC the Colt SMG doesn't fit that niche at all.
"Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles; however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality," the notice states. "Failure to provide the selected SCW for assessment and evaluation will leave PSD military personnel with a capability gap which can result in increased warfighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission."
Moose-Knuckle
06-15-18, 12:01
"Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles; however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality," the notice states. "Failure to provide the selected SCW for assessment and evaluation will leave PSD military personnel with a capability gap which can result in increased warfighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission."
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/899/42100834584_2c61e8f402.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/891/42100834514_2a0e02bb1e_b.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-15-18, 15:39
"Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles; however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality,"
against people not wearing a minimum of body armor.
Wouldn't a Glock 18 with a FAB stock work just as well as any of these? Off that list, the B&T is the only one that makes any sense for an ultra-concealable SMG. Hell, might as well go with a Mac-10. That being said, I'd love to have a Beretta PMX.
Would depend how important first shot placement is, which is why the Uzi was king of the SMGs until the MP5. But currently, given how small the 5.56 package has become, the only reason I can think of to run SMGs (particularly the MP5) would be for greater suppression and I can't think of much else besides "ninja sneak and creep" ops and then I'd still want half the crew running Colt Commandos just in case "sneak in/sneak out/nobody knows we were even there" falls apart.
So SMGs are now more special use than sniper rifles. Other than that the only use I can think of is stuff like MPs and those who have to pull security around things that don't react particularly well to gunfire since 9mm will probably do less damage to your super secret spy plane than 5.56.
Seems like all the ninja seal guys have this figured out and are currently running the best gear for the job in the form of 416s or Mk18s or whatever the current compact AR platform is these days and are only gonna draw SMGs for very specific applications.
So if you are running around 16 Princess Gate zapping hostage takers who are definitely not wearing body armor then the MP5 is an excellent tool for that job, but if you are playing in Mosul or worse, some mountain in Asscrackistan, then a SMG is probably the last thing you want.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/899/42100834584_2c61e8f402.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/891/42100834514_2a0e02bb1e_b.jpg
Dude in the white shirt and glasses is rockin' a Redi-mag, too.
I'm pretty sure the white shirt guy was in the first Sicario movie and smoked some fellas at the border.
PB
Moose-Knuckle
06-16-18, 06:38
Dude in the white shirt and glasses is rockin' a Redi-mag, too.
That was circa '90-'91 so I don't think Redimag was around then.
1st SFOD-D ran some homemade kit on their guns. I think what we are seeing here is what Larry Vickers recreated for his clone carbine of the CAR-15 he used in Panama and again hunting SCUD's in Iraq during the Gulf War. I forget what exactly but some sort of material was used as a spacer between two USGI mags then secured together via 100mph tape.
I'm pretty sure the white shirt guy was in the first Sicario movie and smoked some fellas at the border.
PB
I think the funniest scene in that film is when Dreamy Steve gives the DTO goon a drink of water before he is about to get water boarded lmao.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXK48e0JmDY
That was circa '90-'91 so I don't think Redimag was around then.
1st SFOD-D ran some homemade kit on their guns. I think what we are seeing here is what Larry Vickers recreated for his clone carbine of the CAR-15 he used in Panama and again hunting SCUD's in Iraq during the Gulf War. I forget what exactly but some sort of material was used as a spacer between two USGI mags then secured together via 100mph tape.
I am not sure when Redi-mags came out but zoom in on that picture. You can see where the metal piece wraps around the mag well and the block where it clamps in front.
Moose-Knuckle
06-16-18, 07:16
I am not sure when Redi-mags came out but zoom in on that picture. You can see where the metal piece wraps around the mag well and the block where it clamps in front.
It may very well be, I know not.
I just checked the manufacturer's website and found this:
Boonie Packer began as a one man operation from a home garage in 1977. At the time, it was known as Johnson Firearm Specialties or J.F.S. Inc. The initial product was the Safariland Revolver Speedloader. We continue to sell them an expanded line of products and the supportive business practices of Safariland and in particular, Neale Perkins, the founder, have been a large factor in our success.
Dave Johnson, the founder and owner of JFS/ Boonie Packer classifies himself as an inventor/manufacturer, as he has designed all of the products we make. The name Boonie Packer came about when we started production of the Safari Sling and the then vice president, Glenn Wisser, said, "That is a really neat sling for packing a rifle out in the boonies." The name stuck, and we now do business under that name.
Glenn also coined the name "Redi-Mag" and it has become one of our most successful products. We continue to expand and improve our product line so that it represents better function and greater value. For over thirty years our customers have been very important to us, and we continue this tradition with our products, all made here in Oregon.
So certainly around in that time frame.
Hm...thought I already posted in this thread.
Anyway, it specifies concealability.
Seems like a Beretta 93R or Glock 18 with a good little stock/brace and an optic would fill the bill. Inexpensive, reliable, concealable, Comfortable, carry safe, simple arms manual.
It's so simple and cheap there is no way the DoD would go that route.
If they want to call an shorty AR concealable than so is a Tommy gun in a violin case or a regular ol' m4 in hand with a Disney blanket draped over it.
Results are point two, moving money is point one.
There are three more now - UMP9, something from Noveske, and I don’t remember the third. Really interesting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The UMP does not spring to mind when someone says 'concealable'.
Moose-Knuckle
06-17-18, 06:12
There are three more now - UMP9, something from Noveske, and I don’t remember the third. Really interesting.
I need a PDW from Noveske in my life.
Small block of wood, angled and duct tape, a SEAL buddy showed me that back in the day.
I don't understand this at all. I think subguns have very limited use in today's military. Covert ops by tier 1 units, and as a result need to be more compact than a MP5. I think an updated gun that can be best described as a modern closed bolt mini uzi using plastic in place of sheet metal and redesigned to use a lighter bolt would fit this mission perfectly.
But buying subguns for non front line troops, what does this do, other than waste money.
Limited use and useless are different things. If you can justify your request in the mind of the right person you can have your cake and sometimes eat it, too. I wonder if some PSD didn't smack the barrel of his M4 on the door for the umpteenth time within earshot of the general and mumble "I wish this thing was shorter."
RetroRevolver77
06-17-18, 10:16
I don't understand this at all. I think subguns have very limited use in today's military. Covert ops by tier 1 units, and as a result need to be more compact than a MP5. I think an updated gun that can be best described as a modern closed bolt mini uzi using plastic in place of sheet metal and redesigned to use a lighter bolt would fit this mission perfectly.
But buying subguns for non front line troops, what does this do, other than waste money.
I'd rather have a subgun in my lap than a carbine if I was driving around. Something small like an MP5K would be ideal but modernized.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-17-18, 10:18
It would be interesting to know what the genesis of this is, where the money came from and who is running the program. I'm sure there is some kind of inside baseball goofiness going on here. Isn't that a much larger number of guns under consideration that usual? Seems like there are usually 4 or so for a new program.
It would be interesting to know what the genesis of this is, where the money came from and who is running the program. I'm sure there is some kind of inside baseball goofiness going on here. Isn't that a much larger number of guns under consideration that usual? Seems like there are usually 4 or so for a new program.
That’s what I was thinking. A lot of random manufacturers for a DOD contract too. I don’t know where I read it, but I saw something that claimed that the idea is to give one to anyone who is normally issued only an M9, to make them more lethal without “burdening” them with a full M4.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Shame the Steyr MP-69/81/MPI is no longer made... It would be my pick. Got to play extensively with a dealer sample and burn through some ammo.
It's like a sleeker, product improved Uzi. Lighter, handles better. All the good things of an Uzi, with less (none?) if the bad. It's still open bolt, though, if I recall.
By the way, the B&T mp-9 is a descendent of the steyr sub-gun, they bought out the design/patents from Steyr. (By way of the TMP)
I'm still an mp-5 fan, especially for 50m or further away. But that's not the role most of the time. For protection, the compactness of the MPI would be my pick. Shoulder stock is usable if needed.
I personally don't think of the MP-5 as outdated. If it is, you could say the same for any PDW based on the m-16... I'm not aware of any sub-gun system better developed and flexible than the MP-5.
I'm not a sub-gun fan for general issue, even for officers. I got sub-gun out of my system in college when I ran the same "jungle" lane shooting balloons randomly placed on the run down a valley. 5-10m I could hit just as fast with my pistol and a fraction of the ammo compared to burst fire.
But they still have their role, I could see why the army would want to have them in the arsenal for specific needs.
Why in the Blue F would we buy a Turkish contract MP5 when factory German ones are available for damn near the same price? Unless it's just a way to bring an end to semi auto imports for US shooters because now they have a military contract.
From that list the only ones I'd consider are the Colt, SIG, B&T or the EVO. The Colt would make the most sense IF you weren't going with a factory MP5 for some reason that I can't even begin to understand. And why they aren't looking at the Knights PDW is even more baffling.
Maybe H&K is getting serious about discontinuing the MP5 series and the Army just isn't interested in the UMP or MP7. And in that case, Hans and Franz need to get back into the R&D stuff pronto to bring us the next generation SMG because the UMP was nice, but wasn't quite it and the MP7 is way too special use as a general purpose SMG.
Wouldn't it be nice if HK could marry the roller lock bolt of the MP5 with a new polymer platform available in both .45 and 9mm but in a package the size of the MP5 or better. Kind of like how they married Browning and Walther features for the ground breaking USP handgun series.
But honestly, given the limited use and need of a SMG anyway, the whole idea of searching for a new one is kinda bizarre, especially given some of the candidates. Somewhere Todd Bailey is looking at this list and his blood pressure is spiking hard.
Todd Bailey...Now there's a name I haven't heard mentioned in a looong time....
It would be interesting to know what the genesis of this is, where the money came from and who is running the program. I'm sure there is some kind of inside baseball goofiness going on here. Isn't that a much larger number of guns under consideration that usual? Seems like there are usually 4 or so for a new program.
From the article:
U.S. Army Contracting Command, on behalf of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, recently announced it will spend $428,480 to award sole-source contracts to Beretta USA, Colt Manufacturing Company, CMMG Inc., CZ-USA, Sig Sauer and five other small-arms makers for highly concealable subcompact weapon systems "capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal and accurate fires at close range with minimal collateral damage," according to a June 6 special award notice.......
.....The weapons will be used in an evaluation to "inform current capabilities for the Capability Production Document for the Maneuver Support Center of Excellence," the notice states.
"The acquisition of the SCW is essential in meeting the agency's requirement to support Product Manager, Individual Weapons mission to assess commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) SCWs in order to fill a capability gap in lethality and concealability."
https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/06/12/army-selects-10-commercial-subcompact-weapons-future-testing.html
That’s what I was thinking. A lot of random manufacturers for a DOD contract too. I don’t know where I read it, but I saw something that claimed that the idea is to give one to anyone who is normally issued only an M9, to make them more lethal without “burdening” them with a full M4.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAn m4 would hardly be a burden if anyone could have one and not add 5lbs of crap to it. Better yet how about pencil barreled sbr.... like an actual carbine or at least what a "carbine" was traditionally meant to be. The lighter shorter weapon you issued to those who werent officers and werent infantry.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
An m4 would hardly be a burden if anyone could have one and not add 5lbs of crap to it. Better yet how about pencil barreled sbr.... like an actual carbine or at least what a "carbine" was traditionally meant to be. The lighter shorter weapon you issued to those who werent officers and werent infantry.
Isn't that the reason for the genesis of the M4 in the first place? It morphed into a "beast" (relative term) once it became a general issue weapon.
MountainRaven
06-18-18, 19:24
Isn't that the reason for the genesis of the M4 in the first place? It morphed into a "beast" (relative term) once it became a general issue weapon.
It's funny how that happens.
The M16A1 was a lightweight, handy rifle.
Then, 20 years later, along came the M16A2. (I really don't think it's any coincidence that no sooner had the M16A2 been adopted - and the lightweight, handy M16A1 binned - than Colt said, "You know what the Army needs? A lightweight, handy rifle!")
Then the M4 carbine gets adopted. A lightweight, handy rifle.
And 20 years later, along comes the M4A1 (as a general issue, rather than SOF-specific, weapon).
And so the cycle begins anew.
HardToHandle
06-18-18, 22:02
It's funny how that happens.
The M16A1 was a lightweight, handy rifle.
Then, 20 years later, along came the M16A2. (I really don't think it's any coincidence that no sooner had the M16A2 been adopted - and the lightweight, handy M16A1 binned - than Colt said, "You know what the Army needs? A lightweight, handy rifle!")
Then the M4 carbine gets adopted. A lightweight, handy rifle.
And 20 years later, along comes the M4A1 (as a general issue, rather than SOF-specific, weapon).
And so the cycle begins anew.
Whoa... Was it not the Corps that said we need a heavy barrel, new A2 sights, three-round burst and too long a buttstock- you know, to be riflemen in the Cold War build-up? The Army needed to replace some shot out uppers and had SS109 needing a faster twist, but slapping on more features was “joint” and more rationale for new uppers. The result was a rifle Ill-suited for the last war and the next war. The A2 should have been shitcanned just for the stupid pistol grip duck bill, let alone all the other non-improvement “improvements”.
I fondled the Brownell’s clones a few months ago. They felt awesome -balanced, fast swinging and something so much easier to carry than a present M4. I cannot get them out of my mind... as a guy who switched to a lightweight barrels almost a decade ago.
An m4 would hardly be a burden if anyone could have one and not add 5lbs of crap to it. Better yet how about pencil barreled sbr.... like an actual carbine or at least what a "carbine" was traditionally meant to be. The lighter shorter weapon you issued to those who werent officers and werent infantry.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
How about a Colt Commando or Mk18 type SBR?
NYH1.
How about a Colt Commando or Mk18 type SBR?
NYH1.I started with 6520 on the brain, but yes, exactly those....Without the extras. Thin barrel, iron sights, plastic handguards.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
06-19-18, 00:55
I started with 6520 on the brain, but yes, exactly those....Without the extras. Thin barrel, iron sights, plastic handguards.
The only extras my 6720s require is a white light and a sling. Handy little dandies . . .
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4460/24230350808_0ed061d45f_k.jpg
If they had any sense at all they'd update the UMP for 10mm and it would fit the bill perfectly.
Then they'd have a gun that they couldn't conceal, or get ammo for.
I used to carry off duty a mini or micro Uzi. I was able to drive with it on a sling around my neck. In all the years that I rolled like this, I only had 1 time where shooting was the answer and not driving. I could have shot with my Colt commando just as easy.
Drivers need to drive if at all possible. When you can't drive, then you take cover and shoot. But to try and shoot when you need to drive is not the answer.
The only extras my 6720s require is a white light and a sling. Handy little dandies . . .
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4460/24230350808_0ed061d45f_k.jpg
Yeah, that's a nice simple setup. A Commando or Mk18 would be 4.5 or 5.8 inches shorter.
NYH1.
An m4 would hardly be a burden if anyone could have one and not add 5lbs of crap to it. Better yet how about pencil barreled sbr.... like an actual carbine or at least what a "carbine" was traditionally meant to be. The lighter shorter weapon you issued to those who werent officers and werent infantry.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
Maybe yours has five pounds of crap. The vast majority of Army M4s have either a CCO or ACOG and that’s it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
06-19-18, 14:42
Yeah, that's a nice simple setup. A Commando or Mk18 would be 4.5 or 5.8 inches shorter.
Yes sir, one of these days I'll pony up and go through the process and procure a factory 6933.
An m4 would hardly be a burden if anyone could have one and not add 5lbs of crap to it.
It would be if you were trying to conceal it under professional business attire...which sounds something like their intention with this solicitation.
It would be if you were trying to conceal it under professional business attire...which sounds something like their intention with this solicitation.I sorta did suggest shortening it, like a mk 18 or shorter but without all the sexy bits that such things seem to be magnets for.
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
RetroRevolver77
06-21-18, 20:32
Yes sir, one of these days I'll pony up and go through the process and procure a factory 6933.
Or just buy a Steyr AUG since it's only 3/4 of an inch longer- that's what I did. In fact I've thought about just going all Steyr AUG for my main carbines. Compact as a sub/sbr yet still a rifle with a 16" barrel.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-18, 03:57
Or just buy a Steyr AUG since it's only 3/4 of an inch longer- that's what I did. In fact I've thought about just going all Steyr AUG for my main carbines. Compact as a sub/sbr yet still a rifle with a 16" barrel.
Never got a feel for bullpups.
RetroRevolver77
06-22-18, 07:43
Never got a feel for bullpups.
You can shoot them one handed like a pistol if you have to- perfectly balanced.
Or just buy a Steyr AUG since it's only 3/4 of an inch longer- that's what I did. In fact I've thought about just going all Steyr AUG for my main carbines. Compact as a sub/sbr yet still a rifle with a 16" barrel.
Love the AUG. I could easily make it my one and only 5.56 rifle.
Nothing against the AUG except it sure isn't very concealable.
In fact I've thought about just going all Steyr AUG for my main carbines. Compact as a sub/sbr yet still a rifle with a 16" barrel.
Sooner or later, everyone gets tired of the excess weight and crappy ergonomics of an AK.
Ill bite, why would you want this over. 300blk? 9mm inventories?
Also surprized B&T wasnt on there.
Absolutely. 9mm is in the system and with the adoption of the M17/M18 it will be in the system for a long time.
Nothing against the AUG except it sure isn't very concealable.
Not any worse than my 6933 or any other 5.56 SBR I can think of.
Not any worse than my 6933 or any other 5.56 SBR I can think of.
True. That's why if they are serious about this (huge "if") and concealability is so important it would be no bigger than an Uzi Pistol/Vz61/Mp5k/Glock 18 w/folding stock sized weapons.
RetroRevolver77
06-24-18, 13:43
Sooner or later, everyone gets tired of the excess weight and crappy ergonomics of an AK.
My 106UR's weighs 6.1 lbs for the Krink version. The Krink with the stock folded is more compact than my MP5 with the stock collapsed.
What no Swedish K?
Too long, too heavy. :)
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/899/42100834584_2c61e8f402.jpg
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/891/42100834514_2a0e02bb1e_b.jpg
You guys see a protective detail. I'm thinking the General is wearing two watches.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's funny how that happens.
The M16A1 was a lightweight, handy rifle.
Then, 20 years later, along came the M16A2. (I really don't think it's any coincidence that no sooner had the M16A2 been adopted - and the lightweight, handy M16A1 binned - than Colt said, "You know what the Army needs? A lightweight, handy rifle!")
Then the M4 carbine gets adopted. A lightweight, handy rifle.
And 20 years later, along comes the M4A1 (as a general issue, rather than SOF-specific, weapon).
And so the cycle begins anew.
This upper w/o the FA would be ideal. No RDS
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180624/5672947d4b4748630adbc5fd040a8acc.jpg
I love how light this rifle is.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180624/e704209b8ea732b2c9bf7ddd343797e5.heic
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not any worse than my 6933 or any other 5.56 SBR I can think of.
The 6933 is really a great choice especially because it takes to be same magazines and ammo everyone else is carrying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 6933 is really a great choice especially because it takes to be same magazines and ammo everyone else is carrying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure. And I wasn't really advocating the AUG for a US service rifle. I was just saying one is as compact as the other. 6933 has magazine advantages, AUG offers a 16" barrel in the same size package. 6933 will actually suppress better, AUG is probably a more durable rifle. Trade offs are probably endless with various comparisons, I can't think of any military rifle that was adopted by a first world military during the last half of the 20th century that was a complete and total POS with no redeeming values except for the L85A1 and F88 and both of those mostly suffer from poor production quality rather than poor design.
True. That's why if they are serious about this (huge "if") and concealability is so important it would be no bigger than an Uzi Pistol/Vz61/Mp5k/Glock 18 w/folding stock sized weapons.
Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.
I don't even know why full size, non HK manufacture variants of the MP5 are being looked at. They are asking for a less reliable MP5 with lower QC standards. Even if it is just for military police / rear area guard duty applications, they'd be better off handing out the 1977 vintage MP5s that are still in inventory than buying new Turkish or non spec US versions. I bet the Navy has a shit ton of old MP5s they'd love to give away and upgrade to the next special ninja rifle.
Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.
I don't even know why full size, non HK manufacture variants of the MP5 are being looked at. They are asking for a less reliable MP5 with lower QC standards. Even if it is just for military police / rear area guard duty applications, they'd be better off handing out the 1977 vintage MP5s that are still in inventory than buying new Turkish or non spec US versions. I bet the Navy has a shit ton of old MP5s they'd love to give away and upgrade to the next special ninja rifle.
Based on my limited experience with FA, and having never shot one, a TP9 w/folding stock seems, to me, conceptually optimal for a tiny concealable FA gun. Any smaller an id keep it semi. The design should allow decent accuracy- ill have to try one if i can find it locally. Ever shoot one, or a tmp or similar FA?
Yes, and that is why something like the B&T TP9 should be on the list. The Vz61 is a very compact design but I don't think you could bring it up to 9mm without increasing size and weight making it less desirable. I think the reciprocating slide on the G18 would be a bad idea for a general use SMG. The Uzi Pro SMG is now a closed bolt operation but I wonder if they have really solved cook off issues associated with what is still a big heavy bolt that retains a lot of heat.
I agree the B&T TP9 should be a top contender. It is roughly 25 % lighter than the Mp5K.
The questionable things I found about the Tp9:
-The semi-auto trigger is reportedly not very good. Long, long reset. But this could be completely different on the SMG.
-Suppressor mount system is "special" and you can't mount any suppressor. However, suppressor use is NOT part of what they are "looking" for so I say it's a non-issue.
-Magazines. The body and feed lips are all polymer. Are they vetted, yet?
-Recoil. In the few videos I found of SMG's, there is certainly more recoil than an Mp5K, but that's expected since the TP9 isn't roller lock and is lighter.
That's all I got. Everything else seems to be a "go" to me. It's probably more "drop safe" than some of the competition, too. I think that is very important.
I haven't read anything about the Uzi Pro as a SMG so I don't know if it's "ready" for such work or not.
The Vz-61 is roughly 25 % lighter than the light B&T TP9. Your right a 9x19 version would wreck the good things about the gun. What it does need are 30-40 round magazines and way to mount a RDS. Yea, it's 7.65 mm / .32. but so what? Recoil is very low and the gun very controllable. The ammo and mags are light and an accurate, short burst of hot 7.65 mm bullets to the face is deadly. It would take extra effort keep an ammo supply. 9x19 offers the option of soft-armor penetrating bullets. (also would be a special ammo supply)
Doing some research, I think your right about the Glock 18. Stocks are made for it and it could be RDS equipped. But it really seems to jump around (with and without a stock) and not provide the full auto accuracy a top-tier unit would like. (say, 5 shot burst in a 4 inch group at 25 yds almost every time)
You guys see a protective detail. I'm thinking the General is wearing two watches
One Zulu, one local. All the Generals do it. Not smart enough for a GMT watch. ;)
morbidbattlecry
06-25-18, 17:56
Some of you guys seam to have trouble realizing the AR15 platform isn't a solution to every problem.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-25-18, 18:32
"Army" and "solution" don't seem to cohabitate the same sentence when the word 'small arms' is included.
A gun with AR15 ergos that takes Sig Mags seems like the only thing that makes sense, which means that won't happen. An MPX with pistol mags. They already have a 21 round one for the new pistols.
Based on my limited experience with FA, and having never shot one, a TP9 w/folding stock seems, to me, conceptually optimal for a tiny concealable FA gun. Any smaller an id keep it semi. The design should allow decent accuracy- ill have to try one if i can find it locally. Ever shoot one, or a tmp or similar FA?
Not the new one but the old Steyr TMP version. It was better than M10/11 accuracy in essentially the same size package.
I agree the B&T TP9 should be a top contender. It is roughly 25 % lighter than the Mp5K.
The questionable things I found about the Tp9:
-The semi-auto trigger is reportedly not very good. Long, long reset. But this could be completely different on the SMG.
-Suppressor mount system is "special" and you can't mount any suppressor. However, suppressor use is NOT part of what they are "looking" for so I say it's a non-issue.
-Magazines. The body and feed lips are all polymer. Are they vetted, yet?
-Recoil. In the few videos I found of SMG's, there is certainly more recoil than an Mp5K, but that's expected since the TP9 isn't roller lock and is lighter.
That's all I got. Everything else seems to be a "go" to me. It's probably more "drop safe" than some of the competition, too. I think that is very important.
I haven't read anything about the Uzi Pro as a SMG so I don't know if it's "ready" for such work or not.
The Vz-61 is roughly 25 % lighter than the light B&T TP9. Your right a 9x19 version would wreck the good things about the gun. What it does need are 30-40 round magazines and way to mount a RDS. Yea, it's 7.65 mm / .32. but so what? Recoil is very low and the gun very controllable. The ammo and mags are light and an accurate, short burst of hot 7.65 mm bullets to the face is deadly. It would take extra effort keep an ammo supply. 9x19 offers the option of soft-armor penetrating bullets. (also would be a special ammo supply)
Doing some research, I think your right about the Glock 18. Stocks are made for it and it could be RDS equipped. But it really seems to jump around (with and without a stock) and not provide the full auto accuracy a top-tier unit would like. (say, 5 shot burst in a 4 inch group at 25 yds almost every time)
Yeah, the B&T takes a "special suppressor" that makes it suck. Haven't shot the select fire version but I have a SBR and it's fine as a semi auto in terms of accuracy. As a SBR I haven't noticed any recoil beyond what is common for 9mm. No idea on the magazines, but AUG mags have all polymer feed lips and so far so good.
Also any handgun with a slide in full auto is going to be a bit much, from the 93r to the G18 the slide will act like a heavy ass bolt (just like the Uzi or Ingram) but even worse the sights become pointless because they reciprocate with the slide. As an "in the room" option it's fine, but so is any semi auto handgun.
Some of you guys seam to have trouble realizing the AR15 platform isn't a solution to every problem.
What would you suggest?
NYH1.
Mr. Goodtimes
06-25-18, 23:45
If the military wants a sub gun in a pistol caliber again, I don’t see what’s wrong with the MP5. There is also the B+T PDW, the HK416 PDW and the SCAR PDW... all of which are infinitely better options.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Some of you guys seam to have trouble realizing the AR15 platform isn't a solution to every problem.
I agree with this. If someone wants a sub gun they likely are looking for compactness first. Something with a giant dildo hanging off of the rear in any config doesn't meet this bill. It's wasted length/size that isn't necessary in pistol caliber systems. To someone truly looking for the most compact sub gun possible the AR15 platform is a nonstarter. Personally, I will never understand the 9mm AR15. Talk about the worst of both worlds.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-26-18, 12:10
When I think AR15 and 9mm, I'm thinking more the ergos than the actual operating system. Keep the manual of arms as close as you can. Trigger, safety, bolt catch, magazine release in the same orientation. Plus/minus the charging handle. Stoner designed a great rifle, an pretty good carbine and a crappy sub gun.
When I think AR15 and 9mm, I'm thinking more the ergos than the actual operating system. Keep the manual of arms as close as you can. Trigger, safety, bolt catch, magazine release in the same orientation. Plus/minus the charging handle. Stoner designed a great rifle, an pretty good carbine and a crappy sub gun.
I get the similar manual of arms but these days it seems lots of systems use very similar controls making manual of arms close enough that minimal training will make it muscle memory. Otherwise your getting a handgun caliber in a rifle package which to me is the worst of both worlds. Doesn't seem like a fair trade-off to avoid a little additional training. I feel like if someone is truly seeking a sub gun they wouldn't be interested in the AR15 platform or they're not really looking for a sub gun but a lightweight rifle that shoots pistol calibers.
If the military wants a sub gun in a pistol caliber again, I don’t see what’s wrong with the MP5. There is also the B+T PDW, the HK416 PDW and the SCAR PDW... all of which are infinitely better options.
Since HK never got the 416 PDW to run right, and quit making it because it wasn't reliable, I'm going to go with 'that's not a better option'.
Some of you guys seam to have trouble realizing the AR15 platform isn't a solution to every problem.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH!
Moose-Knuckle
06-26-18, 14:09
Been permitting CIA contractors to quell narco ops since 1994. :jester:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1809/28158472127_8975019949_z.jpg
When I think AR15 and 9mm, I'm thinking more the ergos than the actual operating system. Keep the manual of arms as close as you can. Trigger, safety, bolt catch, magazine release in the same orientation. Plus/minus the charging handle. Stoner designed a great rifle, an pretty good carbine and a crappy sub gun.
If you cannot competently transition from the AR15/M4 platform to a SMG such as a MP5, M10 or whatever, you probably shouldn't be allowed to hold a SMG of any kind...ever.
The German army managed to field the G3 and the MP2 (Uzi) at the same time and nobody got confused even though they are probably more unrelated than any two weapon systems can be.
When the FBI, most SWAT teams and just about every other law enforcement agency transitioned from the MP5 to the M4 nobody was complaining that the manual of arms was different and that they can't understand the new rifle/carbine.
If cops can do it, the military can do it.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.