View Full Version : Binary trigger?
Do you think it's worth the price for a binary trigger, or a waste of money? Still trying to build my pistol and getting some ideas
Chris Bonesteel
06-14-18, 12:42
Maybe its just me, but I find a fire on release trigger to be a horribly unsafe idea, and would never even consider using one
Maybe its just me, but I find a fire on release trigger to be a horribly unsafe idea, and would never even consider using one
That, by definition, would violate the NFA rule of 1 round per trigger pull. No?
Chris Bonesteel
06-14-18, 13:11
Youd think, but apparently the atf sees differently. Legality aside, still seems like a horribly unsafe idea to me
Completely meme tier and autistic.
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Leaveammoforme
06-14-18, 14:57
I put a binary and a trigger crank on my AR "pistol" (wink-wink, it's just as good as an SBR). I can rain pure homestead defense death with a single point sling and and a Sightmark.
One. Man. Wrecking. Machine.
Maybe its just me, but I find a fire on release trigger to be a horribly unsafe idea, and would never even consider using one
It is just you. The Binary Trigger is much safer than a full auto trigger, but I don't hear apocryphal warnings about full auto. I've been using a Binary Trigger for almost two years, including letting others try it, without any safety issues at all. Anyone who is going to do something unsafe with a Binary Trigger, such add point the rifle in an unsafe direction with the trigger held back, is going to be just as unsafe with a normal trigger.
Gaigeboyd, to answer your question, I do not think the Binary Trigger was worth the money in any practical sense. There's no denying that it's fun and it's much easier to control than full auto. A shooter might, with practice, use it to full advantage shooting at speed in competition or perhaps during training. However, using it do will get strange looks. It's certainly a cheaper alternative to a transferable machinegun. But after careful consideration, I have decided to not use the Binary Trigger in any rifle used for self defense. I don't want to pay my lawyer to explain it if I ever need to defend myself.
In a nutshell, it's twice as expensive as an SSA-E, but much cheaper than a transferable machinegun and a fun way to turn money into noise. If it has a practical application, it will be in a very narrow niche.
P.S. The kids love it and when combined with a .22 upper, suppressor and subsonic ammo, can reduce even a hardboiled veteran cop to giggling like a school girl.
Doc Safari
06-14-18, 15:26
My take: stop spending money on gimmicks and buy more magazines, ammo, and training.
Chris Bonesteel
06-14-18, 15:38
It is just you. The Binary Trigger is much safer than a full auto trigger, but I don't hear apocryphal warnings about full auto. I've been using a Binary Trigger for almost two years, including letting others try it, without any safety issues at all. Anyone who is going to do something unsafe with a Binary Trigger, such add point the rifle in an unsafe direction with the trigger held back, is going to be just as unsafe with a normal trigger.
Except that a full auto trigger does not incorporate a "dead man switch". While it is possible in any situation for things to go wrong, its is far more likely in all circumstances for someone to unintentionally release the trigger than it is for someone to unintentionally depress it. If a weapon with a typical firing system( be it full auto or just auto loading) is dropped, it will not decide in mid air that another shot should be fired.
I saw a YouTube video a few months back where someone combined a slide fire with a binary trigger and significantly increased the amount of ammo shot(wasted?) per minute as opposed to using either of these accessories by themselves. I can't afford to shoot that much ammo anymore.
That, by definition, would violate the NFA rule of 1 round per trigger pull. No?
The rule is one operation of the trigger.
Pulling is one, releasing is another.
As to the "safety" aspect, it's a learning thing. It allows fast double taps. I can't imagine people pulling the trigger once, then trying to adjust the sight or something.
Except that a full auto trigger does not incorporate a "dead man switch". While it is possible in any situation for things to go wrong, its is far more likely in all circumstances for someone to unintentionally release the trigger than it is for someone to unintentionally depress it. If a weapon with a typical firing system( be it full auto or just auto loading) is dropped, it will not decide in mid air that another shot should be fired.
The reality is different. When something unexpected happens, shooters tend to hold the trigger down. Guess what happens when shooters hold down a full auto trigger? They dump the whole mag. What happens when shooters holds down a binary trigger? They dump a single round. They then have the option of engaging the safety to prevent the firing of the second shot before they release the trigger.
What's the rule when you are done shooting? Finger off the trigger. What's the worst thing that can happen when you take your finger of a binary trigger? It fires a single round. Where is your muzzle pointing when you take your finger off the trigger? Down range at the intended target. If not, YOU screwed up.
Actual use has not shown a binary trigger to be unsafe.
...I can't imagine people pulling the trigger once, then trying to adjust the sight or something.
If you focus on making hits quickly rather than just making noise, you can slow down a bit to get the sights back on target before releasing the second shot.
Dr. Bullseye
06-14-18, 18:40
I had one, a Fostech, it malfunctioned about 15% of the time. It was probably their selector switch. I gave it away as it was simply unreliable. But it was a great experience for me because I learned the value of the AR 15 is placing a lot of lead on the target but doing it accurately. What other weapon can do both so well? Semi auto is fast enough. Working on accuracy and speed is where I'm going.
The rule is one operation of the trigger.
Pulling is one, releasing is another.
I see.
It allows fast double taps.
I'd never heard of this trigger before this thread. I have double tap speed that's pretty respectable. ;)
Completely meme tier and autistic.
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Best description of a binary trigger I've ever heard.
Completely meme tier and autistic.
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That is a completely entry-level statement.
My take: stop spending money on gimmicks and buy more magazines, ammo, and training.
This. If your sight picture is outrunning your trigger finger, and youre pushing FA speeds, by all means, but im sure thats not the case for most people.
They are fun, but i personally wouldnt use one at this point.
If you are good and it helps, thats a bonus.
If you are just learning, its going to be a liability.
Once you can pass typical drills with standard gear, maybe consider stuff like this.
I've had one in my .22LR suppressed SBR for a while now and it's great fun, but not 100% reliable in binary mode. (Sometimes it has this malfunction on binary where the hammer is cocked, but the trigger is dead and there's an unfired round in the chamber. It can at least be quickly reset by racking the charging handle once, although that does eject the round in the chamber.) I don't feel bad dumping ammo in .22LR, but I don't think I'd use it in a 5.56 gun.
That said, the binary mode did come in very handy when the dog was out barking one night. I went out to investigate and found a skunk staring at me. Biggest immediate "oh shit" feeling since Afghanistan, flipped that shit straight to binary and double tapped it in the head before it could get off another spray.
Then the dog decided to lunge on the body and shake it around a bit. Cue a trip to the grocery store for hydrogen peroxide, etc. That was a long night.
...Then the dog decided to lunge on the body and shake it around a bit..
Man's Best Friend
That is a completely entry-level statement.
LARPing ain’t easy Doc. You should know all about that [emoji6]
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LARPing ain’t easy Doc. You should know all about that [emoji6]
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You know it...... I am LARPing as a CIV every day now....... it is not easy. :jester:
You know it...... I am LARPing as a CIV every day now....... it is not easy. :jester:
Hahahahaha
[emoji8]
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I'm a shooter and collector, not an "operator". I have a good number of AR15's and would like to put a binary trigger in one just to have some fun at the range if there's one out there that doesn't make the AR15 I put it in less reliable. I simply can't stand when a gun doesn't work as it's supposed to. Is there consensus on which binary trigger is most reliable?
Dr. Bullseye
08-02-18, 12:29
I'm a shooter and collector, not an "operator". I have a good number of AR15's and would like to put a binary trigger in one just to have some fun at the range if there's one out there that doesn't make the AR15 I put it in less reliable. I simply can't stand when a gun doesn't work as it's supposed to. Is there consensus on which binary trigger is most reliable?
I wouldn't be buying a Fostech then. Their "binary trigger" as opposed to their semi-auto trigger takes a whole technique to learn and you are going to be learning that rather than having "fun at the range". You are also going to be using two or three times the ammo. My selector switch malfunctioned to the point I just gave up. I have a good, reliable, trigger now and I am getting better at shooting rather than getting better learning their trigger. But I am poor and only have one AR. If you have money to burn on ammo and ARs to throw away, go experiment.
I'd never say that I have money to burn, but I do already have an M16A1. It definitely eats through the ammo. I'd like to try a binary trigger just for the fun of it if there's one that will work reliably.
Dr. Bullseye
08-02-18, 21:53
I'd never say that I have money to burn, but I do already have an M16A1. It definitely eats through the ammo. I'd like to try a binary trigger just for the fun of it if there's one that will work reliably.
If you wanna do it, do it. I felt the same way when I bought mine. I went with Fostech because it was supposed to be more reliable. Franklin has made improvements, they say. Franklin is faster. On video, Franklin malfunctions. I can tell you Fostech malfunctions. Franklin, in video, recovers faster. I replaced a $480.00 trigger with a $120.00 trigger and I couldn't be happier. I gave away the Fostech as I could not sell something defective and live with myself. Good luck with yours.
My buddy just picked an echo up. Was not really impressed with initial fit and function. Machining looks terrible and the selector itself felt real mushy/toy like. The trigger isn't bad. It's definitely better than a standard gi trigger. Just don't expect geissele feel or anything like that.
I'm getting the impression that the available binary triggers don't really work as advertised. $400 is a lot of money considering you can build a cheap AR15 for the same amount of money. At the same time, $400 isn't that much compared to a full auto receiver, but only if it works as advertised.
Dr. Bullseye
08-03-18, 20:42
I'm getting the impression that the available binary triggers don't really work as advertised. $400 is a lot of money considering you can build a cheap AR15 for the same amount of money. At the same time, $400 isn't that much compared to a full auto receiver, but only if it works as advertised.
Bret, maybe you just have to get one and work though this whole thing. Nobody could talk me out of getting mine. More experienced guys said it was worthless in combat or for home defense. They told me it might be fun. Well, it really was not fun for me. I tried ten rounds on binary at 50 yards regarding combat/self defense. I could hit the man-sized target twice---the first two hit with eight misses. With a couple months of practice this only got marginally better. I read a report of a real soldier comparing full auto to semi auto. He fired 30 rounds, fifty yard target distance on full and then on semi. Full auto was faster but he only hit the man sized target twice (I wasn't feeling so bad at this point) but then he went to semi auto with 30 rounds. He reported it was only slightly slower (obviously an experienced guy) but he hit the target 28 times.
Between his report and the selector malfunctions, my fantasy with binary was over.
From your discussion I gather money is not the issue. I would not have been happy unless I worked through this whole thing and I don't think you are going to be satisfied until you try it and decide one way or the other.
listening to the Tom Gesham radio program a caller called in and gave a range report on the binary trigger. He said it takes a bit of practice but it works great and is controllable If you don't want the round to fire on the release you can use the safety to allow the trigger release with out firing. It seems interesting.
GlocksInMySocks
08-07-18, 12:49
We carry them at the shop. It’s completely up to you whether or not it is worth it or practical. I personally wouldn’t use the echo/binary mode for much more than having fun. But don’t get me wrong, they are fun as hell.
All that said, we have found an upgraded echo is waaaaayyyyy better than the BFS3, and the standard BFS3 is waaaaayyyyy better than the stock echo trigger. Only the echo trigger with a spring upgrade has a good semi-auto trigger. Here’s a video comparing them. As always, YMMV.
https://youtu.be/9uSJmoNY-Jg
Hammertime
08-07-18, 21:58
I have dealt with tons of them. In my opinion, they are for blasting for fun at the range, not for a fighting weapon whatsoever. My favorite weapon for the BFS is the Sig MPX in 9mm. It is very controllable and fun - you will have a BIG smile on your face with that one.
The main issue with the BFS is SAFETY. Be extra extra extra extra extra EXTRA careful and train with this platform if you are going to use it. Also, if you have guests shooting it for the first time, STRESS to them that this is different than a normal weapon system and watch them like a hawk.
Stay safe
HT
OK. Y'all talked me in to buying one. It will be a range toy (like all my rifles). Classic Firearms has them for $359 delivered. I'll let you know how it runs. Thanks to everyone for your input.
GlocksInMySocks
08-07-18, 23:03
Which did you get? At that price, I’m assuming a bfs3 which is stupid cheap considering the MAP price is higher than that
I have shot most of them and they are fun for sure, don’t sell all that many of the standard ones though. When I saw the digitrigger I was intrigued and grabbed one to test and quickly ordered some to keep in inventory. I like the extra safety’s it adds over some of the others as well such as a grip safety and time out on the release round in digital binary mode. The mechanical milspec mode is just that and then in digital mode both single and binary mode puts a smile on my face with its one pound pull. But they are not cheap and I only have one on a 9mm ar pistol not a go to gun. These are defiantly worth a look imo.
Disclaimer: I am a dealer for digitigger
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Which did you get? At that price, I’m assuming a bfs3 which is stupid cheap considering the MAP price is higher than that
Sorry, I left that out. I bought the Fostech Echo Gen II.
https://www.classicfirearms.com/fostech-echo-trigger
Tonight I installed the Fostech Echo Gen II trigger assembly in a mutt build M4 clone (Stag upper & lower with Sabre Defense barrel). Assembly was easier that I thought that it would be. The instructions were ok except that they referenced parts by letters, but didn't include a diagram to indicate what parts the letters corresponded to. Looking at the parts in the assembly, they seem pretty rough, even for a casting. You'd think for the money they could use machined parts. No doubt Fostech is raking in the money on this. That said, if it works, then I'll be happy. I don't really care for the bronze colored trigger, but the obvious sign that it's not a normal trigger has some value. There are two negatives that I can see immediately. First, the trigger pull is heavy. It's heavy as in I'm wondering if my finger will get sore shooting it. The other negative is that the bottom tip of the trigger is significantly higher than they typically are on AR15's. I can't quite figure out why they did it this way. Given that the trigger pull is heavier, you'd think that they'd want to allow shooters more leverage. It passed the manual testing outlined in the instructions, so hopefully it will function correctly at the range.
the_1iviper
09-03-18, 05:20
Tonight I installed the Fostech Echo Gen II trigger assembly in a mutt build M4 clone (Stag upper & lower with Sabre Defense barrel). Assembly was easier that I thought that it would be. The instructions were ok except that they referenced parts by letters, but didn't include a diagram to indicate what parts the letters corresponded to. Looking at the parts in the assembly, they seem pretty rough, even for a casting. You'd think for the money they could use machined parts. No doubt Fostech is raking in the money on this. That said, if it works, then I'll be happy. I don't really care for the bronze colored trigger, but the obvious sign that it's not a normal trigger has some value. There are two negatives that I can see immediately. First, the trigger pull is heavy. It's heavy as in I'm wondering if my finger will get sore shooting it. The other negative is that the bottom tip of the trigger is significantly higher than they typically are on AR15's. I can't quite figure out why they did it this way. Given that the trigger pull is heavier, you'd think that they'd want to allow shooters more leverage. It passed the manual testing outlined in the instructions, so hopefully it will function correctly at the range.
the bronze colored trigger has been replaced with a normal length trigger bow now i believe. the heavy trigger pull is pretty easily fixed by replacing the bud spring with something lighter. i have my echo down to just under 2 lbs in semi and under 3 lbs in echo mode.
the bronze colored trigger has been replaced with a normal length trigger bow now i believe.
Interesting. I thought the GenII that I bought was the latest version.
I took the rifle containing the Fostech binary trigger to the range today and fired 200rds through it. As you'd expect, it function 100% when I put 20rds through it in semi mode. The results in binary mode were mixed. I fired the first 30rd mag slowly and function was 100%. I then fired the second 30rd mag as fast as I could. Part of the way through, there was a failure to feed. I fired the third 30rd mag as fast as I could and had another failure to feed. For the fourth mag, I fired slowly again and function was 100%. I then went back to firing as fast as I could for the fifth and sixth 30rd mags and function was 100%. I don't know why the two failures to feed happened on the third and fourth 30rd mags as this rifle and the magazines have previously been 100%. I can only think that it's related to the binary trigger somehow.
At this point I'd say that the Fostech binary trigger is ok for range fun. That's almost entirely what I use my guns for anyway and this particular AR15 was just gathering dust. I do think that it's way overpriced. It would not at all surprise me if another manufacturer entered the market. The probability of binary triggers being banned is the only thing that I can think keeps the prices where they are.
The_War_Wagon
09-03-18, 18:06
Maybe its just me, but I find a fire on release trigger to be a horribly unsafe idea, and would never even consider using one
I had a Pac West Armory (PWA) HBAR do that on me - regularly - in the early '90's. My college wingman called it, "the acceptable malfunction." :jester:
PWA was so crappy a mfg., that as the AR craze REALLY took off... they went out of business. It didn't help, that my 'smitty in those days noted, he'd NEVER seen one that DIDN'T have a bent firing pin - the reason MINE was doubling. Ergo, I SURE wouldn't pay hundreds of dollars to MAKE my rifles do, what my crappy PWA did out-the-door (used) of my gun shop 27 years ago.
Outlander Systems
09-04-18, 06:22
The FA BFSIII works 100% with an H2 buffer and standard carbine spring. The trigger on semi is exceptional in its own right.
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