View Full Version : Hysteria on the Southern Border.
Averageman
06-19-18, 10:40
Interesting article here;
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/19/illegal-immigration-debate-disaster/
When emotionalism meets scaremongering, it’s difficult to have a useful debate about anything. Yet for immigration, those seem to be the two choices.
The Trump administration has adopted a “zero tolerance” policy requiring law enforcement to prosecute illegal immigrants. Yes, the policy comports with the law. Yes, the Obama administration engaged in a similar policy on a smaller scale — and yes, the media covered it very differently.
The article goes on to lay the blame at the feet of all involved, however, it fails to explore the situation at the necessary depth for a complete understanding.
Doesn't anyone remember the POTUS making a very, very generous offer to the Democrats involving DACA?
Doesn't anyone remember he promised to fix this issue?
I'm at the point with this where I'm really unconcerned about locking up someones kids if it fixes this. If I decided to shoplift something and I brought a child along as an accomplice, I'm pretty sure we would be "separated" when I went to jail, so why should someone doing the same crime at an international border be treated any differently?
Crossing that border illegally, needs to be a Felony the very first time someone does it, not the second, third or fourth.
Doc Safari
06-19-18, 10:50
Time will tell, but I think Trump is trying to force Congress to act on his immigration proposals. Trump is crazy like a fox. He blames them for the current situation while he secretly laughs that all the hoopla is going to cause fewer people to want to suffer the same fate when they get here.
Business_Casual
06-19-18, 10:50
Hey, what was that report that said the FBI and DoJ were... oh, wait, kids on the border! Trump is hitler!
Make everyone that crosses the line an instant felon (as you suggested). Process them, then put them through a rehab program that registers them as citizens.
They can't vote because they're felons, they get to stay, and everyone's happy.
Averageman
06-19-18, 11:02
From another article, AKA, the view from the Left.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/06/18/john-kelly-proposed-separating-children-from-their-parents-to-deter-illegal-immigration-last-year-and-now-the-trump-administration-cant-get-its-story-straight/23462120/
As the Trump administration offers inconsistent justifications for the policy of separating migrant children from their parents at the US-Mexico border, an interview from 2017 featuring then-Homeland Security chief John Kelly has resurfaced in which he suggested the separation of families could help deter illegal immigration.
When asked by CNN in March 2017 if the Trump administration was seriously considering separating migrant children from their parents, Kelly said, "Yes, I am considering in order to deter more movement along this terribly dangerous network. ... I am considering exactly that."
"I would do almost anything to deter the people from Central America to getting on this very, very dangerous network that brings them up through Mexico into the United States," Kelly added.
And this idiot said
On Monday, former GOP presidential candidate Jeb Bush tweeted, "Children shouldn’t be used as a negotiating tool. [Trump] should end this heartless policy and Congress should get an immigration deal done that provides for asylum reform, border security and a path to citizenship for Dreamers."
He too forgets that President Trump made a very generous offer and his own brother didn't fix it when he was POTUS.
Dr. Colleen Kraft, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, on Monday told "CBS This Morning" the separation of families at the border amounts to a "form of child abuse."
Gee Doctor Kraft, is bringing your Child along as you commit a crime Child Abuse also?
Edit to add;
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/06/18/michelle-obama-seconds-laura-bushs-criticism-of-child-separation-policy/23462077/
Former first lady Michelle Obama neatly criticized the Trump administration’s child separation policy on Monday, breaking from the Obamas’ practice of (mostly) staying quiet about the current president.
“Sometimes truth transcends party,” she wrote, pointing to former first lady Laura Bush’s Washington Post op-ed in which Obama’s Republican predecessor criticized the practice of separating immigrant children from their undocumented parents at the border.
And these two Muppets are married to and sleep with guys that kicked the can down the road for POTUS Trump to fix?
“Americans pride ourselves on being a moral nation, on being the nation that sends humanitarian relief to places devastated by natural disasters or famine or war,” Bush wrote in her op-ed. “We pride ourselves on believing that people should be seen for the content of their character, not the color of their skin. We pride ourselves on acceptance. If we are truly that country, then it is our obligation to reunite these detained children with their parents — and to stop separating parents and children in the first place.
Morality, it could be debated is keeping your Oath of Office and protecting your Country from invasion couldn't it? BTW it isn't about race or skin color, the facts are we've asked for this issue to be fixed and the inhabitants of the Swamp have turned away from the issue and the chance to fix the situation with new laws.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-19-18, 11:20
Hey, what was that report that said the FBI and DoJ were... oh, wait, kids on the border! Trump is hitler!
52488
Saw this on Facebook. That should make everyone a little nervous.
Doc Safari
06-19-18, 11:23
52488
Saw this on Facebook. That should make everyone a little nervous.
Nah. I already know the two factions will eventually be at each other's throats. The red on this t-shirt is just a good aiming point for people so inclined.
Forgetting for the moment that between my father and myself, we put in a little over 50 years in immigration law enforcement, I ‘d still like to throw in my .02.
We have definitely become effing INSANE, and this proves it. The rest of the 24/7 news just underscores the fact.
SomeOtherGuy
06-19-18, 13:03
I'm at the point with this where I'm really unconcerned about locking up someones kids if it fixes this. If I decided to shoplift something and I brought a child along as an accomplice, I'm pretty sure we would be "separated" when I went to jail, so why should someone doing the same crime at an international border be treated any differently?
Completely logical. You will persuade no one because the left doesn't use, or often even understand, logic.
Make everyone that crosses the line an instant felon (as you suggested). Process them, then put them through a rehab program that registers them as citizens.
They can't vote because they're felons, they get to stay, and everyone's happy.
You are far too generous and not thinking ahead. We don't want these people here. We don't want them taking welfare, social security, free ER treatment (they aren't collectible and EMTALA mandates treatment), seats in our schools, police and fire services either as victim or perpetrator, etc. We don't want them having kids here who get magic birthright citizenship. If they don't qualify for legal immigration to the T, they need to be sent back, wherever, it's not our problem and we aren't responsible to take in the whole world, or even just the whole world's welfare cases.
A country, a state, is defined by its borders and control over those borders. Look up international law if you like, it's a foundational concept. If the putative country does not control and defend its borders, it is not a country at all.
The current wave of migration is not a soft, fuzzy issue where all can be made happy. There will be winners and losers. We can choose to be winners or losers, but we can't make everyone a winner. The people supporting illegal immigration are largely people who hate the "old white men" who built the USA, and are deliberately trying to make those men, and their descendants, the losers.
As a rhetorical gesture, ask any lefties if Canada or Mexico should be compelled to accept our unemployed, our criminals, and anyone else who was born here but doesn't have a nice comfy place in our society. When they say no, ask them - why not?
Hey, what was that report that said the FBI and DoJ were... oh, wait, kids on the border! Trump is hitler!
Hey did you see that report that Trump is Hitler?...oh, wait, Space Corps. :jester:
I'm at the point with this where I'm really unconcerned about locking up someones kids if it fixes this. If I decided to shoplift something and I brought a child along as an accomplice, I'm pretty sure we would be "separated" when I went to jail, so why should someone doing the same crime at an international border be treated any differently?
Crossing that border illegally, needs to be a Felony the very first time someone does it, not the second, third or fourth.
That is a good analogy. The only difference is that your kids will be released to relatives as quickly as possible. Even if that isn't possible they will not be held under the same circumstances as these children. And, before you ask what we should do about the kids, I got no clue. We have nothing in place other than what they are doing, but I do believe we are doing these kids wrong.
If you recall we put the boat people in places such as Fort Chaffee:
http://ualrpublicradio.org/post/40-years-ago-arkansas-military-base-became-refugee-camp
Conditions weren't stellar, but families were together.
Completely logical. You will persuade no one because the left doesn't use, or often even understand, logic.
You are far too generous and not thinking ahead. We don't want these people here. We don't want them taking welfare, social security, free ER treatment (they aren't collectible and EMTALA mandates treatment), seats in our schools, police and fire services either as victim or perpetrator, etc. We don't want them having kids here who get magic birthright citizenship. If they don't qualify for legal immigration to the T, they need to be sent back, wherever, it's not our problem and we aren't responsible to take in the whole world, or even just the whole world's welfare cases.
A country, a state, is defined by its borders and control over those borders. Look up international law if you like, it's a foundational concept. If the putative country does not control and defend its borders, it is not a country at all.
The current wave of migration is not a soft, fuzzy issue where all can be made happy. There will be winners and losers. We can choose to be winners or losers, but we can't make everyone a winner. The people supporting illegal immigration are largely people who hate the "old white men" who built the USA, and are deliberately trying to make those men, and their descendants, the losers.
As a rhetorical gesture, ask any lefties if Canada or Mexico should be compelled to accept our unemployed, our criminals, and anyone else who was born here but doesn't have a nice comfy place in our society. When they say no, ask them - why not?
You make good points.
We need to secure the border first. Yeah, when a ship is taking water you bail/activate the bilge pumps, but at some point you fix the leak. We never have.
Why? It is just another problem passed on down to us peons because business profits from the immigrants, legal or illegal, they work cheaper and, for the most part, take jobs regular Americans don't want.
You seal the border, start throwing anyone who hires an illegal in jail - corporations the CEO gets a year, ma and pa lawn service pa gets a month, no questions asked. Then give illegals in the country a drop dead date to self-report, give them temp status (unless they have a felony record), and five years to learn English and become citizens. The problem will disappear inside a decade. Regardless of what we do, it will take time to fix.
Doc Safari
06-19-18, 13:35
Bingo. When it's too painful for a business person to hire an illegal, and too difficult for an illegal to join the FSA, then the problem will be solved. They will go somewhere else.
Sheer numbers of illegals make it impossible to keep family units together, and keep them safe. Teenage females are separated into their own group as are teenage boys. The third group is adult males and the last group are mothers with small children and adult females. From what I have been told, it's all about safety and the lack of money and facilities to create apartments for each family. Some claiming to be fathers, brothers or uncles turn out to be leaders of the smuggling group or single men. Without precautions, rape and pedophilia/molestation could take place.
And of course we have to call them "migrants", and I guess migrants are gonna migrate. Why not just throw open the doors and let the entire 3rd World migrate here? A giant transfer of the world's population to where the good life is.
Business_Casual
06-19-18, 14:52
You can have a welfare state or open borders. You can’t have both.
You can have a welfare state or open borders. You can’t have both.*****************************************************************************
Yeah, tell that to the Demoncrats they believe they can.
Averageman
06-19-18, 15:41
It, like many other issues, is all about the narrative.
If you believe these folks are entitled to US Citizenship because they showed up with a story to tell about how bad they had it back home, well, there you go, an instant democrat.
If you believe dragging a kid physically through several countries, walking, hitching rides and jumping trains only to skip the process to ask for political asylum is child abuse and somewhat hard to prove and sketchy at best because, well, we really don't know if that is your kid because you have no documentation. In that case, separating you from the child until the facts are proven out, only makes sense.
Kids are different, give them a couple of good meals, some TV and a game box and before long you'll get the truth out of them. They wont stick with a lie just because the adult who abused them wants them to after a bit of love and concern is shown them.
Hell at this point in my life, I would be more than willing to adopt one of those little rascals rather than send them back or have them work as prostitutes for MS13.
They would get a great education, learn a trade, and likely become very conservative.
An article on Reason does a nice job of placing the blame with those who have been passing the buck all along, Congress:
https://reason.com/blog/2018/06/18/donald-trump-is-terrible-on-immigration
We have 3 choices as it stands right now:
We can continue with the catch and release approach by giving then a ticket and a court date to return
We can separate them and stressing the limited resources that exist
We can build mass camps where they can all stay together, which will turn into something so ugly it will make everything else seem tame.
Unless some real changes get made, which includes funding.
The_War_Wagon
06-19-18, 16:00
Damn EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL democraps - breaking up families!!!
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/eeeevil%20obama_zpsdgmi665v.jpg
I mean... D'oh. :o
So what would the libs have us do, just say "Aw shucks, we can't detain kids or break up families so you can all just go free"? Newp, no friggin' way.
WE DON'T WANT YOU. WE DON'T WANT YOUR KIDS EITHER. GO BACK TO THE SHITHOLE YOU CAME FROM. WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU!!!
And yes, I honestly and truly feel that way. We are not the world's savior. And as much as I don't want them or their ilk I also seek to deny the Dems what they so dearly desire: VOTES.
Business_Casual
06-19-18, 17:35
Why is everyone blaming the Democrats? Boehner? Paul Ryan, Chamber of Commerce anyone? Been to Walmart or box store lately and checked out the accents of the workers?
Averageman
06-19-18, 17:44
Honestly, if you want to fix this on a budget, simply pay five Mexican Generals five million dollars a year to close the border to immigration.
The problem will not only not cross our borders, it will barely cross the Mexican border.
Families won't be separated, but they very well may end up in the same hole.
When you want to fix a complex problem, it pays to keep an open mind.
Supporters of both parties want open borders.
Dems because it means new voters
Reps because it means cheap labor
Both parties don't give a damn for the American people.
Sheer numbers of illegals make it impossible to keep family units together, and keep them safe. Teenage females are separated into their own group as are teenage boys. The third group is adult males and the last group are mothers with small children and adult females. From what I have been told, it's all about safety and the lack of money and facilities to create apartments for each family. Some claiming to be fathers, brothers or uncles turn out to be leaders of the smuggling group or single men. Without precautions, rape and pedophilia/molestation could take place.
Excellent points.
Excellent points.
I have no doubt we did it for more benevolent reasons as opposed to sinister reasons. Maintaining control in a detention-type environment (where the "guests" who don't want to be there in the first place are not approving of their accommodations) to avoid the aforementioned molesting/rape is a difficult task more readily solved by just separating people. No one can honestly accuse us of "inhumane" conditions.
Excellent points.
Yes, which is exactly why this is done. TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN. You know, the same reason the libs want to ban guns.
Hell at this point in my life, I would be more than willing to adopt one of those little rascals rather than send them back or have them work as prostitutes for MS13.
They would get a great education, learn a trade, and likely become very conservative.
Not enough folks are willing to do that, good on you.
My wife and I looked into adoption through an attorney in Mexico, that did the adoptions for an orphanage at which a friend had done some mission work.
One of the first things that I learned from the attorney was that the 'orphans' at the orphanage were not actually all orphans. We were told that many of them were from poor families who had left them with the orphanage with the hope of picking them up at a later date, often when they were old enough to help work.
If I recall the details correctly, it has been 18 years, the plan she (the attorney) unfolded for us was to have us become appointed the child's legal guardians to get the child into the United States and then go for the adoption in the U.S. Her part would be facilitating the guardianship. At the time I worked with several criminal attorneys, who in turn knew attorneys that did adoptions, the report back from them was that it COULD work, so we decided not to put all our money into that endeavor.
I can understand that countries don't want to enable/encourage women to become brood stock for foreign adoptions, but there are many countries that have a surfeit of orphan babies. loosening the regulations on international adoptions would give those kids a shot at a good life.
Sorry, for the thread drift, back on topic.
I have no doubt we did it for more benevolent reasons as opposed to sinister reasons. Maintaining control in a detention-type environment (where the "guests" who don't want to be there in the first place are not approving of their accommodations) to avoid the aforementioned molesting/rape is a difficult task more readily solved by just separating people. No one can honestly accuse us of "inhumane" conditions.
Well for one thing, our catch and release approach has lead to:
Eye-popping surge of illegal immigrants abducting children: Children 'abducted' by illegals hoping to pose as families at U.S. border
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/22/children-abducted-illegals-posing-families-us-bord/
This article points out some of the rhetoric. I wish there was another answer, but the jarring rhetorical license some folks are taking is beyond the pale.
I get it, I don't much care for President Trump, but this is over the top.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/06/19/protecting_our_border_does_not_make_us_nazis_137310.html
RioGrandeGreen
06-19-18, 22:04
Sheer numbers of illegals make it impossible to keep family units together, and keep them safe. Teenage females are separated into their own group as are teenage boys. The third group is adult males and the last group are mothers with small children and adult females. From what I have been told, it's all about safety and the lack of money and facilities to create apartments for each family. Some claiming to be fathers, brothers or uncles turn out to be leaders of the smuggling group or single men. Without precautions, rape and pedophilia/molestation could take place.
And of course we have to call them "migrants", and I guess migrants are gonna migrate. Why not just throw open the doors and let the entire 3rd World migrate here? A giant transfer of the world's population to where the good life is.
Pretty much spot on.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 00:00
Supporters of both parties want open borders.
Dems because it means new voters
Reps because it means cheap labor
Both parties don't give a damn for the American people.
Exactly. You can't have a problem this big, for this long with out both sides wanting to happen - or at least not willing to give up what they get for what would come.
The odd thing on the adoption angle is that I've said that the standard American family has fallen from 5+ kids to 2+, and to keep the Ponzi scheme of an economy moving forward we need to import another couple of kids.
Business_Casual
06-20-18, 05:29
I've said that the standard American family has fallen from 5+ kids to 2+, and to keep the Ponzi scheme of an economy moving forward we need to import another couple of kids.
I see/hear that a lot. If you are in agreement with that, what is your thesis? I’m less convinced it is the economy on a macro level and more concerned with how the demographics would impact the state’s overall positioning - control, debt, welfare scheme...
All this outrage and 24 hour MSM coverage of crying children and evil President Trump is just another smoke and mirrors show to distract the short attention span public from what is really going on. Which is the hearings on the unprecedented and utterly corrupt FBI's and former administration's attempts to influence a presidential election and, when that failed, to depose of a duly elected, sitting president. But, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 07:37
I see/hear that a lot. If you are in agreement with that, what is your thesis? I’m less convinced it is the economy on a macro level and more concerned with how the demographics would impact the state’s overall positioning - control, debt, welfare scheme...
I don’t think it is the main driver, as in a stated goal, but a back-burner issue and general outcome. Look at the EU, they openly talk about their lack of population growth as a driver for the need for immigrants. The direct driver is the need for cheaper labor and the political warping of our electorate. If capitalism has a Achilles Heel, it is that it needs growth- usually baselined and biased by population growth. Population stagnation or even decline leads to ‘math’ problems when it comes to loans and investment because real economic growth also slows down, so you end up with issues.
SilverBullet432
06-20-18, 08:23
Hysteria is an understatement. This $hit is getting out of hand.. Yeah, we do have an illegal immigration problem, but at the same time, our legal immigration system is a joke. I feel this will never be solved, too many people on all sides are taking money to keep it this way..
Hysteria is an understatement. This $hit is getting out of hand.. Yeah, we do have an illegal immigration problem, but at the same time, our legal immigration system is a joke. I feel this will never be solved, too many people on all sides are taking money to keep it this way..
They have found their perfect storm topic: children. The use of children tends eliminate what little critical thinking skills some may have attempted to apply to a topic, which is why "think of the children" and "if it saves even one child..." approaches work well when facts don't. Children in cages headings and or pic ends any last vestige objectivity, and no amount of facts or data will alter it. I suspect they will be forced to go back to the catch and release approach, which ultimately hurts children.
RetroRevolver77
06-20-18, 10:01
Sessions is asking if the children can be DNA tested to insure their parents are the actual adults with them. Many of the children are being trafficked- which is why I suspect the Democrats are up in arms about all this, stopping their supply of children to abuse.
Doc Safari
06-20-18, 10:04
Sessions is asking if the children can be DNA tested to insure their parents are the actual adults with them. Many of the children are being trafficked- which is why I suspect the Democrats are up in arms about all this, stopping their supply of children to abuse.
I think the DNA test is maybe the perfect solution: no match and it's obvious the child was being used solely for an adult to get into the country. That way they can prosecute that person to the fullest extent of the law. It will send a message to other human traffickers that the gig is up.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 10:06
Sessions is asking if the children can be DNA tested to insure their parents are the actual adults with them. Many of the children are being trafficked- which is why I suspect the Democrats are up in arms about all this, stopping their supply of children to abuse.
I don’t think that has anything to do with it. It would show that the narrative is wrong and this is not what they are saying it is.
Having said that, I’d hate to have families at Disneyland go through family DNA testing. Could lead to some awkward discussions.
How long does a DNA test take to run?
Business_Casual
06-20-18, 10:39
I don’t think it is the main driver, as in a stated goal, but a back-burner issue and general outcome. Look at the EU, they openly talk about their lack of population growth as a driver for the need for immigrants. The direct driver is the need for cheaper labor and the political warping of our electorate. If capitalism has a Achilles Heel, it is that it needs growth- usually baselined and biased by population growth. Population stagnation or even decline leads to ‘math’ problems when it comes to loans and investment because real economic growth also slows down, so you end up with issues.
There’s no requirement for growth in capitalism. Only that your contracts be honored (private property) and that the transaction be of mutual interest.
Hence, there is no need for more population. Automation is replacing people right and left.
RetroRevolver77
06-20-18, 10:56
I don’t think it is the main driver, as in a stated goal, but a back-burner issue and general outcome. Look at the EU, they openly talk about their lack of population growth as a driver for the need for immigrants. The direct driver is the need for cheaper labor and the political warping of our electorate. If capitalism has a Achilles Heel, it is that it needs growth- usually baselined and biased by population growth. Population stagnation or even decline leads to ‘math’ problems when it comes to loans and investment because real economic growth also slows down, so you end up with issues.
Socialism needs more people to keep up the ponzi-schemes instituted by the government. True capitalism would simply allow businesses that cannot adapt or remain competitive to die off as they rightfully should allowing newer more innovative businesses to thrive. If working people are producing less children it's because they cannot financially afford more of them and as such, the population needs to adjust downward enough to once again allow citizens to make competitive wages in order to afford their lifestyles. Paying 40-50% of the population in terms of Welfare is what kills nations, not population declines. Figure we have about 40% of the working age adults in this country that cannot sustain themselves financially. Survival of the fittest dictates that these people shouldn't be eating let alone breeding.
Averageman
06-20-18, 11:01
They have found their perfect storm topic: children. The use of children tends eliminate what little critical thinking skills some may have attempted to apply to a topic, which is why "think of the children" and "if it saves even one child..." approaches work well when facts don't. Children in cages headings and or pic ends any last vestige objectivity, and no amount of facts or data will alter it. I suspect they will be forced to go back to the catch and release approach, which ultimately hurts children.
The facts don't even come in to play as soon as the "Children in Cages" narrative went out.
The fact that this is Law, it's been on the books for decades and Trump is only enforcing the Law means nothing to them. They've even used Obama era photos and claimed this was what's happening now.
I think the DNA test is maybe the perfect solution: no match and it's obvious the child was being used solely for an adult to get into the country. That way they can prosecute that person to the fullest extent of the law. It will send a message to other human traffickers that the gig is up.
This needs to be done and the reasons why need to be highlighted immediately. The # me too folks need to either get behind it or eat a large serving of crow, children being abducted and forced in to prostitution is a real thing and this is one way to ensure it isn't happening to these kids.
Of course if they want to continue on this route without doing so, you could simply ask if sexual abuse of children is palatable as long as they are brown?
Averageman
06-20-18, 11:03
Socialism needs more people to keep up the ponzi-schemes instituted by the government. True capitalism would simply allow businesses that cannot adapt or remain competitive to die off as they rightfully should allowing newer more innovative businesses to thrive. If working people are producing less children it's because they cannot financially afford more of them and as such, the population needs to adjust downward enough to once again allow citizens to make competitive wages in order to afford their lifestyles. Paying 40-50% of the population in terms of Welfare is what kills nations, not population declines. Figure we have about 40% of the working age adults in this country that cannot sustain themselves financially. Survival of the fittest dictates that these people shouldn't be eating let alone breeding.
You could simply say, "This is the State of Europe Currently" and likely be 90% correct.
Business_Casual
06-20-18, 11:37
Guys, I’m not convinced. Socialism means the State can print and borrow as much currency as they want.
I’m thinking Cloward Piven.
Averageman
06-20-18, 11:52
Guys, I’m not convinced. Socialism means the State can print and borrow as much currency as they want.
I’m thinking Cloward Piven.
I believe you're correct, burdening the system with even more people at this point only hastens the end of capitalism.
They don't even need to be brought in to the country as a citizen or to receive a green card. Simply catching them, housing them, processing them, DNA testing them, returning them to their country of origin is a huge burden on the system.
Every nickle we this is very likely money we are borrowing.
How's this for hysteria... I was listening to a radio talk show when someone from New York called in and claimed that the illegal kids at the border were being separated from their parents so that pharmaceutical companies could perform experiments on them.
Sent from my G8341 using Tapatalk
The facts don't even come in to play as soon as the "Children in Cages" narrative went out.
The fact that this is Law, it's been on the books for decades and Trump is only enforcing the Law means nothing to them. They've even used Obama era photos and claimed this was what's happening now.
Irreverent! "think of the children" :bad:
This needs to be done and the reasons why need to be highlighted immediately. The # me too folks need to either get behind it or eat a large serving of crow, children being abducted and forced in to prostitution is a real thing and this is one way to ensure it isn't happening to these kids.
Of course if they want to continue on this route without doing so, you could simply ask if sexual abuse of children is palatable as long as they are brown?
I know that new tech has made such DNA testing much faster. I don't know if fast enough, or could be scaled up, for this particular approach. They may have to (gasp) invest $ into that to make it a reality, and while everyone bitches on both sides, they tend to shut up fast when the amount of $ needed to actually change things is outlined.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 12:11
Socialism needs more people to keep up the ponzi-schemes instituted by the government. True capitalism would simply allow businesses that cannot adapt or remain competitive to die off as they rightfully should allowing newer more innovative businesses to thrive. If working people are producing less children it's because they cannot financially afford more of them and as such, the population needs to adjust downward enough to once again allow citizens to make competitive wages in order to afford their lifestyles. Paying 40-50% of the population in terms of Welfare is what kills nations, not population declines. Figure we have about 40% of the working age adults in this country that cannot sustain themselves financially. Survival of the fittest dictates that these people shouldn't be eating let alone breeding.
That is a micro-economic/firm-based view, not wrong, but not looking at things like aggregate demand and things like interest rates. Look at Japan for a good example of what happens when you have zero population growth. With out their cohesive social structure, they’d be screwed- that is why China is in for a real hurting as their demographic bulge works its way out. Low to negative interest rates are killer for capitalism- and the forward momentum for an economy comes from increase population. It is like economic inertia or gravity pulling you forward. Of course you can cock that up and you can innovate and pave over some of that, but it isn’t that easy. Switzerland and Japan are pretty unique and really only survive because they are external ineractions which allow their systems to operate..
Population growth in the US is what, 3%? If you had negative 3%.... ugh. Sure companies can operate, but fixed, durable assets take a killing. Most housing become worthless. Anything population based faces a hard time getting capital.
How's this for hysteria... I was listening to a radio talk show when someone from New York called in and claimed that the illegal kids at the border were being separated from their parents so that pharmaceutical companies could perform experiments on them.
I'm seeing memes on FB with pictures of Nazi concentration camps used. To make any such comparison is a slap in the face to anyone who who has even an inkling of what the differences are.
If the truth was to be known, if in the future all immigrants would not vote Democrat, the Democrats would not even spitting their way right now.
I think maybe we should start putting the instigating insane left in cages. Peter Fonda for start. Do they really want a civil war? Sure looks like it.
http://therightscoop.com/peter-fonda-has-completely-lost-it-wants-to-target-school-kids-and-put-barron-trump-in-a-cage-with-pedophiles/
Nice that Melania alerted the USSS on this a$$hole.
http://therightscoop.com/just-in-melania-reports-peter-fonda-to-secret-service/
RetroRevolver77
06-20-18, 13:01
That is a micro-economic/firm-based view, not wrong, but not looking at things like aggregate demand and things like interest rates. Look at Japan for a good example of what happens when you have zero population growth. With out their cohesive social structure, they’d be screwed- that is why China is in for a real hurting as their demographic bulge works its way out. Low to negative interest rates are killer for capitalism- and the forward momentum for an economy comes from increase population. It is like economic inertia or gravity pulling you forward. Of course you can cock that up and you can innovate and pave over some of that, but it isn’t that easy. Switzerland and Japan are pretty unique and really only survive because they are external ineractions which allow their systems to operate..
Population growth in the US is what, 3%? If you had negative 3%.... ugh. Sure companies can operate, but fixed, durable assets take a killing. Most housing become worthless. Anything population based faces a hard time getting capital.
Everything you said is going to happen anyway. Housing market will collapse as the baby boomers enter nursing homes. The middle class will collapse once the Demographics flip. Social security is going to collapse within two decades because more people are collecting than contributing. All of that is unavoidable either way. So then what has to be done? We need to get tough. We need to get lean. We build a survival economy, we come back fighting. The able bodied will compete for labor driving out immigration while lowering costs for production. The next stage of our country is one of decline, not prosperity so we don't need more people here- we need less. Simply, you can't have this many people living off the fat without kicking in anything. Switzerland and Japan are strong because they are K type populations. We import R types, masses of them whose home countries already failed due to their lack of innovation and they are now coming here to do the same.
Clinton and Obama on illegal immigration : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcxVF_x3W-A
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 13:24
I'm seeing memes on FB with pictures of Nazi concentration camps used. To make any such comparison is a slap in the face to anyone who who has even an inkling of what the differences are.
You mean like NSA spook Hayden comparing Aushwitz to the southern border?
https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Former-NSA-director-compares-US-immigration-policy-to-Auschwitz-560162
Like that crazy?
We import R types, masses of them whose home countries already failed due to their lack of innovation and they are now coming here to do the same.
I think that is the endgame. Cause the fall of the United States. You can be sure our enemies, both foreign and domestic, will exploit it. Heck, they are most likely behind it.
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How's this for hysteria... I was listening to a radio talk show when someone from New York called in and claimed that the illegal kids at the border were being separated from their parents so that pharmaceutical companies could perform experiments on them.
It must be true 'cause i read about it on twitter.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 13:41
Trump is going to sign en exec order saying that families can stay together. The issue is there is the ‘Flores’ decree that says kids have to be released with in 20 days. So the Progressives are going to have to go to court.... to split up families.
Trump will never come out ahead because of the MSM and brain dead people, but in reality, Trump is running circles around them.
The MSM will never report that the Progressives are going to court to split up families... thought that is the net effect.
So the, who says that Trump is a threat to the rule of law, are going absolutely bat crap crazy- because he is enforcing the law. You can’t make stuff like that up.
Doc Safari
06-20-18, 13:46
Trump is going to sign en exec order saying that families can stay together. The issue is there is the ‘Flores’ decree that says kids have to be released with in 20 days. So the Progressives are going to have to go to court.... to split up families.
Trump will never come out ahead because of the MSM and brain dead people, but in reality, Trump is running circles around them.
The MSM will never report that the Progressives are going to court to split up families... thought that is the net effect.
So the, who says that Trump is a threat to the rule of law, are going absolutely bat crap crazy- because he is enforcing the law. You can’t make stuff like that up.
I thought that the endgame of the Progressives was to force detained people to be released completely within 20 days without any kind of processing. In other words, if "families" can't be split up, and since kids have to be released in 20 days, ergo everyone gets released in 20 days.
RetroRevolver77
06-20-18, 13:57
I thought that the endgame of the Progressives was to force detained people to be released completely within 20 days without any kind of processing. In other words, if "families" can't be split up, and since kids have to be released in 20 days, ergo everyone gets released in 20 days.
Hungary has been innovative in that they built their border fences two miles from the actual border. Instead of catching people having crossed the border while their lawyers petition to grant them a way to stay, they are simply kept in limbo, outside the fence but still within the actual border. Their lawyers then can't try to keep them in the country because they are already inside the country- eventually they just give up and go to Germany.
The issue is there is the ‘Flores’ decree that says kids have to be released with in 20 days. So the Progressives are going to have to go to court.... to split up families.
The MSM will never report that the Progressives are going to court to split up families... thought that is the net effect.
I don't follow that. If the kids have to be released in 20days, won't that force us back to catch and release like we had been doing.
And why would progressives want to split up families? They are the ones (mostly) screaming not to split them up.
Hungary has been innovative in that they built their border fences two miles from the actual border. Instead of catching people having crossed the border while their lawyers petition to grant them a way to stay, they are simply kept in limbo, outside the fence but still within the actual border. Their lawyers then can't try to keep them in the country because they are already inside the country- eventually they just give up and go to Germany.
Sounds like a plan we should be doing.
Averageman
06-20-18, 14:01
You mean like NSA spook Hayden comparing Aushwitz to the southern border?
https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Former-NSA-director-compares-US-immigration-policy-to-Auschwitz-560162
Like that crazy?
They had Play Stations in Aushwitz?
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-20-18, 14:16
I don't follow that. If the kids have to be released in 20days, won't that force us back to catch and release like we had been doing.
And why would progressives want to split up families? They are the ones (mostly) screaming not to split them up.
Trump will say that we are going keep families intact. The Progressives will then have to go to court to say that, no you can’t hold kids longer than 20 days- in effect splitting up families. Pick your poison.
And why would progressives want to split up families? They are the ones (mostly) screaming not to split them up.
Uh, you can’t be serious? You think that they give a crap about these kids and families? Where were they when the same thing was done by Obama and Clinton? This has always been about 1-making TRump look bad, and 2- getting attention off of the FBI IG report.
How is that 80% of the kids we have actually came un-accompanied? We are the NAZIs for splitting up families, but when they chuck their kids over the border- they are still saints?
Questions are always easy when the answer is always -“It’s Trump’s fault and he is evil.”
Hungary has been innovative in that they built their border fences two miles from the actual border. Instead of catching people having crossed the border while their lawyers petition to grant them a way to stay, they are simply kept in limbo, outside the fence but still within the actual border. Their lawyers then can't try to keep them in the country because they are already inside the country- eventually they just give up and go to Germany.
Sounds like a plan we should be doing.
Hunary's fence is 325 miles long.
I feel we need to do something along the same line, but we need to keep a couple things in mind:
1) Our southern border is 1989 long;
2) Folks who bump up against Hungary's fence can go around and get into another country - look at a map of Europe;
3) At the Southern Border the goal is the U.S. so it seems logical that attempts to cross will either become more sophisticated (already have) or there will be a greater shift to coastal approaches, along the Gulf and Pacific coasts;
Once again, not saying we shouldn't secure the border, just that the economies of scale are entirely different.
Trump will say that we are going keep families intact. The Progressives will then have to go to court to say that, no you can’t hold kids longer than 20 days- in effect splitting up families. Pick your poison.
Uh, you can’t be serious? You think that they give a crap about these kids and families? Where were they when the same thing was done by Obama and Clinton? This has always been about 1-making TRump look bad, and 2- getting attention off of the FBI IG report.
How is that 80% of the kids we have actually came un-accompanied? We are the NAZIs for splitting up families, but when they chuck their kids over the border- they are still saints?
Questions are always easy when the answer is always -“It’s Trump’s fault and he is evil.”
They already did that. The 9th Circuit ruled, during Obama's tenure, that detaining minors violates the Flores agreement. I am sure the administration knows this and is using it as a way to underscore that they are just following the The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. Further shifting blame to the Dems.
At least I hope that is the plan. lol
Doc Safari
06-20-18, 15:22
SOLUTION:
1. Make hiring an illegal alien carry such onerous penalties that no US business would dare do it.
2. Make it illegal for anyone not a citizen to get any kind of benefits.
Those two things will cause most illegals to go home. If they can't make a living or can't get welfare here they will leave.
I would also put troops on the border with "shoot-to-kill" orders for drug mules. I would declare drug mules and human smugglers a threat to national security and send captured ones to Gitmo.
Averageman
06-20-18, 16:09
SOLUTION:
1. Make hiring an illegal alien carry such onerous penalties that no US business would dare do it.
2. Make it illegal for anyone not a citizen to get any kind of benefits.
Those two things will cause most illegals to go home. If they can't make a living or can't get welfare here they will leave.
I would also put troops on the border with "shoot-to-kill" orders for drug mules. I would declare drug mules and human smugglers a threat to national security and send captured ones to Gitmo.
Thus the first time you cross the border illegally needs to be a felony. No citizenship for felons, no voting rights and an immediate deportation.
We have no idea who is smuggling children, where the children came from, or who their parents are. We are taking the word of a criminal that these kids belong to them.
Now if someone wants to immigrate here illegally and they know if they bring a kid they get a special pass, but they don't have a kid. The question becomes would they kidnap a child to come here to America?
We need to insure these children are with their parents via a DNA test. That people cannot understand something that simple is amazing.
SOLUTION:
1. Make hiring an illegal alien carry such onerous penalties that no US business would dare do it.
2. Make it illegal for anyone not a citizen to get any kind of benefits.
Those two things will cause most illegals to go home. If they can't make a living or can't get welfare here they will leave.
I would also put troops on the border with "shoot-to-kill" orders for drug mules. I would declare drug mules and human smugglers a threat to national security and send captured ones to Gitmo.
Hold those responsible for hiring them responsible too? Madness! Truth is, no one wants to pay more for their lettuce and chit, and we are we the major demand for drugs and workers coming over those borders, no one will actively address that one. Cheap produce wins...
Doc Safari
06-20-18, 16:28
Hold those responsible for hiring them responsible too? Madness! Truth is, no one wants to pay more for their lettuce and chit, and we are we the major demand for drugs and workers coming over those borders, no one will actively address that one. Cheap produce wins...
I know. Both parties want cheap labor, new voters, and new churchgoers.
Only the people want immigration controls and who gives a rip about them? Nobody in power, that's for sure.
The Real ID act was supposed to address my point #1. Of course it was made toothless and only had the effect of making a de facto national ID card. Meanwhile, the illegals don't NEED a national ID card to get what they want.
Once again: General Public---BOHICA!
Business_Casual
06-20-18, 16:43
I think that is the endgame. Cause the fall of the United States. You can be sure our enemies, both foreign and domestic, will exploit it. Heck, they are most likely behind it.
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Soros made his money shorting the pound, why not crash the dollar too?
Soros made his money shorting the pound, why not crash the dollar too?I think he has both sides paid off and that's why no one is going after him.
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I know. Both parties want cheap labor, new voters, and new churchgoers.
Only the people want immigration controls and who gives a rip about them? Nobody in power, that's for sure.
The Real ID act was supposed to address my point #1. Of course it was made toothless and only had the effect of making a de facto national ID card. Meanwhile, the illegals don't NEED a national ID card to get what they want.
Once again: General Public---BOHICA!
But that's the 800lb gorilla in the room no one seems to discuss. Europe allows "refugees" in from chit hole countries not due to any humanitarian reasons, but for cheap labor. That has come back to bite them in the ass on many levels, but no migrants from poor counties, no one to clean your homes, work the fields, nanny your kids, etc. We have had porous border then not then on for decades depending on how much cheap labor we needed/wanted. Economy takes a downturn, it goes to "they are takin' out jaaaaaaabs" and it's back hardening border talk. We had a program to actively encourage Mexicans to come to the US and work seasonal farm jobs at one point.
Note poor countries who genuinely cant afford nor want more poor people who tend to take their border security seriously. The truth is, all great nations were built on the backs of slaves, and when they no longer existed, very poor migrant workers who were/are damn close to slaves. Europe needs them, or at least thinks it does...That's the ugly truth of it and the actual humanitarian part where we/they take in some % of people genuinely in need of asylum is quite small.
You start paying everyone who does those jobs anything close to a living wage by our standards, and prices for everything shoots up, the economy slows, then tanks, and no one is happy or doing well then. All of them accepting the poor opressed migrants need cheap labor to exist in the form they exist, including us, though I tend to think we are not as dependent as European countries/socialist places.
They have found their perfect storm topic: children. The use of children tends eliminate what little critical thinking skills some may have attempted to apply to a topic, which is why "think of the children" and "if it saves even one child..." approaches work well when facts don't. Children in cages headings and or pic ends any last vestige objectivity, and no amount of facts or data will alter it. I suspect they will be forced to go back to the catch and release approach, which ultimately hurts children.
Bullshit, incarcerate/detain them all together. Then they can all (kids included) get shipped back together. Gee, that gave me a warm fuzzy just thinking about it.
If the truth was to be known, if in the future all immigrants would not vote Democrat, the Democrats would not even spitting their way right now.
You are 110% correct.
Moose-Knuckle
06-20-18, 18:27
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1830/42880028212_b8a6672e08_b.jpg
Bullshit, incarcerate/detain them all together. Then they can all (kids included) get shipped back together. Gee, that gave me a warm fuzzy just thinking about it.
You're missing my point, the catch and release of families is what ultimately hurts the children. Per what I posted before:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/22/children-abducted-illegals-posing-families-us-bord/
And it appears Trump has already backed off per my comments due to the pressure. They will be incarcerate/detained together, and we will see if the Trump admin further back peddles to catch and release:
In reversal, Trump orders halt to his family separation rule;
https://www.yahoo.com/news/homeland-security-drafts-plan-end-family-separation-151501530.html?.tsrc=fauxdal
The Dems smell blood now and will be back with even more demands " because it's for the
children ", the Dems don't give a shit about these people any more than I do.
They are a commodity to be ratcheted up in the media for the highest return they can get.
The Dems want catch and release to be the unenforced law of the land.
Stupid Americans don't seem to understand that these people are here to replace them and
their children.
There are 8 steps to Genocide and we are on #6 now.
Wake the **** up, we are the one's they want under the lime.
You're missing my point, the catch and release of families is what ultimately hurts the children. Per what I posted before:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/may/22/children-abducted-illegals-posing-families-us-bord/
No, I wasn't missing the point regarding the ones who are actually the children of the illegal parents and "catch and release". That serves them well; they get released and suck up .gov bennies and we all pay for it. Now the ones who aren't their actual children I can see where it is a disadvantage and could lead to problems down the road.
Simple solution: DNA test the kids and "parents". If they are the actual kids they all get deported together. If they aren't they get deported separately. See the common thread here? They ALL get deported, one way or another.
We don't want ANY of them. Immigrate legally and I'm cool with it (and I don't mean "asylum").
RetroRevolver77
06-20-18, 19:21
Hold those responsible for hiring them responsible too? Madness! Truth is, no one wants to pay more for their lettuce and chit, and we are we the major demand for drugs and workers coming over those borders, no one will actively address that one. Cheap produce wins...
Then we'll do what our grandfather's did and grow our own produce as well as working to keep the bills paid. Life is going to be tough in the future, the globalists want it that way. There is no bright side to having half the population collecting welfare or government pensions because someone has to pay for it all and we can't import more leaches on an already stretched system.
Then we'll do what our grandfather's did and grow our own produce as well as working to keep the bills paid. Life is going to be tough in the future, the globalists want it that way. There is no bright side to having half the population collecting welfare or government pensions because someone has to pay for it all and we can't import more leaches on an already stretched system.
I don't know where you're from, but in my grandfather's California and my other grandfather's Washington.. the produce and fruit was primarily picked by Mexican migrant workers. My grandparents didn't grow shit, they bought it at road-side stands and the grocery store.
The barbarians are at the gate and the leftists want to let them in.
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The_War_Wagon
06-20-18, 21:20
Bullshit, incarcerate/detain them all together. Then they can all (kids included) get shipped back together. Gee, that gave me a warm fuzzy just thinking about it.
Southbound buses with WHOLE families - departing every five minutes!
OR catapults - I'm NOT particular...
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/The_War_Wagon/catapult_zpsrjeibcoh.gif
I don't know where you're from.....
He's from a happy place where the only facts that count are the facts that support his view of reality.
A place where when someone asks 'Did you know of 7n6?' the answer will be 'Yes, I did. Some folks say he's dead, some folks say he never will be.'
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 01:22
B
The truth is, all great nations were built on the backs of slaves, and when they no longer existed, very poor migrant workers who were/are damn close to slaves.
It is actually a bit more complex than that. It isn't the great nations are built on slaves. Slaves are horrible and inefficient workers. That they are 'free' and a sunk cost are all that keeps them in use. The real use isn't in building the country, or even keeping it going, it is that they enable the life style of the actual workers creating (the real key) and managing complex, value-added functions. Cheap illegal labor from south of the border didn't make the US in the last 50 years, but it made living in a bigger house and let more educated women into the workplace. The US was built on slave labor? Please. What made America a world power wasn't cotton or anything made in the South. The Cotton gin wasn't invented by a slave. What made America the pre-eminent 20th century power was the northern industrialization and the idea economy that followed the Civil War- of which the internet is just the latest iteration. What has transformed our economy, cheap Mexican labor.
I don't disagree with your general premise- the greatest empires had the largest deltas from top to bottom - and that leads to the greatest advances and the best overall living conditions for all. That is until greed and jealousy raise their heads and it is too late before people realize that by taking down the top, the whole engine that drives gains for all dies.
Don't buy into the myth about slaves driving great economic advances.
It is actually a bit more complex than that. It isn't the great nations are built on slaves. Slaves are horrible and inefficient workers. That they are 'free' and a sunk cost are all that keeps them in use. The real use isn't in building the country, or even keeping it going, it is that they enable the life style of the actual workers creating (the real key) and managing complex, value-added functions. Cheap illegal labor from south of the border didn't make the US in the last 50 years, but it made living in a bigger house and let more educated women into the workplace. The US was built on slave labor? Please. What made America a world power wasn't cotton or anything made in the South. The Cotton gin wasn't invented by a slave. What made America the pre-eminent 20th century power was the northern industrialization and the idea economy that followed the Civil War- of which the internet is just the latest iteration. What has transformed our economy, cheap Mexican labor.
I don't disagree with your general premise- the greatest empires had the largest deltas from top to bottom - and that leads to the greatest advances and the best overall living conditions for all. That is until greed and jealousy raise their heads and it is too late before people realize that by taking down the top, the whole engine that drives gains for all dies.
Don't buy into the myth about slaves driving great economic advances.
There is no doubt that indentured servants and cheap foreign labor enabled this country to expand rapidly in the late 1800's. Those railroads weren't built by union labor. Sure, the Irish and the Chinese weren't slaves in the pure sense of the word, but they sure didn't have it good either.
Averageman
06-21-18, 05:06
If you want to place some blame there is a lot to go around.
I've however often wondered how Mexico had such a restrictive policy when it comes to illegal border crossings in to their country, yet have no issue following near lemming like masses of immigrants right up to our border to cross.
I have this feeling, if you wanted to stop it, the key might be pressuring Mexico to get on board.
Perhaps this might be a better direction to pursue than continuing with the failures we are having?
Business_Casual
06-21-18, 05:46
There is no doubt that indentured servants and cheap foreign labor enabled this country to expand rapidly in the late 1800's. Those railroads weren't built by union labor. Sure, the Irish and the Chinese weren't slaves in the pure sense of the word, but they sure didn't have it good either.
What alternative life style choices did they have? This is similar to the “child labor” canard about the third world. The alternative to working in a factory and eating and sleeping indoors is squatting by a river bank hoping whatever those eyes belong to isn’t a crocodile. Context is key. Being an unemployed peasant in rural China in 1875 wasn’t an idyllic pastoral existence.
Why did they come here? Why do they continue to come here? Because the alternative is worse. Simple math.
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-18, 06:05
The Dems smell blood now and will be back with even more demands " because it's for the
children ", the Dems don't give a shit about these people any more than I do.
They are a commodity to be ratcheted up in the media for the highest return they can get.
The Dems want catch and release to be the unenforced law of the land.
Stupid Americans don't seem to understand that these people are here to replace them and
their children.
There are 8 steps to Genocide and we are on #6 now.
Wake the **** up, we are the one's they want under the lime.
Now that is third rail, we can't talk about it otherwise you are a Nazi blah-blah-blah....
Coudenhove-Kalergi Plan / Cultural Marxism in full effect.
I don't know where you're from, but in my grandfather's California and my other grandfather's Washington.. the produce and fruit was primarily picked by Mexican migrant workers. My grandparents didn't grow shit, they bought it at road-side stands and the grocery store.
I don't know how old your grandparents are/were but when mine were young there was a critically acclaimed author named John Steinbeck who wrote of the accounts of White produce pickers and their plight.
One of my grandfathers grew up on a farm in Iowa where they grew crops, mostly grains and they didn't have any Mexican migrant labor back then. Neither did my other grandfather who grew up a sharecropper in Arkansas.
What alternative life style choices did they have? This is similar to the “child labor” canard about the third world. The alternative to working in a factory and eating and sleeping indoors is squatting by a river bank hoping whatever those eyes belong to isn’t a crocodile. Context is key. Being an unemployed peasant in rural China in 1875 wasn’t an idyllic pastoral existence.
Why did they come here? Why do they continue to come here? Because the alternative is worse. Simple math.
I started to post something similar then saw that you already did. So I'll just say ditto.
I believe you're correct, burdening the system with even more people at this point only hastens the end of capitalism.
They don't even need to be brought in to the country as a citizen or to receive a green card. Simply catching them, housing them, processing them, DNA testing them, returning them to their country of origin is a huge burden on the system.
Every nickle we this is very likely money we are borrowing.This was written in 2014:
"Back in the Sixties, Marxists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven came up with a great strategy for overloading and collapsing democratic welfare states, paving the way for socialist tyranny. *Basically, the idea was to hit the system with a tidal wave of demands it couldn’t refuse, and couldn’t possibly fulfill. *The Left would then insist that the moral argument for the system remained intact, so the only way to meet those impossible demands was to scrap every vestige of Constitutional restraint and republican self-government, instituting a totalitarian system that*in theory*would forcibly restructure society to promote “fairness” and give all those government dependents what they “deserve.” *(In practice, of course, what you*actually*get is an iron-fisted dictatorship that cooks up reports to make itself look good, or simply tells the unhappy citizens to shut up and obey when things deteriorate to the point that no volume of phony reports can paper over the problems – say, when the glorious worker’s paradise of Venezuela runs out of tap water)."
From:
http://humanevents.com/2014/06/09/cloward-piven-at-the-border/
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The_War_Wagon
06-21-18, 08:55
We have PLENTY of slave labor just WAITING to happen in America; Anqueefa, Pajama boys, Dindunuffins, democraps, baristas with Masters & Ph.D's, Hollyweirdoes, et.al. - all just sitting around, collecting gummint checks, and practically BEGGING to be yoked together, digging a ditch somewhere, in Trump's new WPA.
The sooner we catapult the ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADERS (and their children...) over the river, the sooner we can put our own "indigent class" to work, building the Great Wall of 'MURICA!!! :cool:
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 10:59
What alternative life style choices did they have? This is similar to the “child labor” canard about the third world. The alternative to working in a factory and eating and sleeping indoors is squatting by a river bank hoping whatever those eyes belong to isn’t a crocodile. Context is key. Being an unemployed peasant in rural China in 1875 wasn’t an idyllic pastoral existence.
.
Artisanal bread, good; artisanal beer, better. For some reason artisanal mining is bad- I just don't get it.
Progressives would rather have people starve than work.
Progressives would rather have people starve than work.
Spaceship Earth is getting more and more overcrowded and resources are dwindling. The elites know this. That's why they move to cull the rest of us by any means necessary.
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This was written in 2014:
"Back in the Sixties, Marxists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven came up with a great strategy for overloading and collapsing democratic welfare states, paving the way for socialist tyranny. *Basically, the idea was to hit the system with a tidal wave of demands it couldn’t refuse, and couldn’t possibly fulfill. *The Left would then insist that the moral argument for the system remained intact, so the only way to meet those impossible demands was to scrap every vestige of Constitutional restraint and republican self-government, instituting a totalitarian system that*in theory*would forcibly restructure society to promote “fairness” and give all those government dependents what they “deserve.” *(In practice, of course, what you*actually*get is an iron-fisted dictatorship that cooks up reports to make itself look good, or simply tells the unhappy citizens to shut up and obey when things deteriorate to the point that no volume of phony reports can paper over the problems – say, when the glorious worker’s paradise of Venezuela runs out of tap water)."
From:
http://humanevents.com/2014/06/09/cl...at-the-border/*************************************************************************************
You really need to read the http://humanevents.com, it was Barak Obama's playbook, nothing here is coincidental, it was all planned and implemented
w/malice.*************************************************************************************************************************
Alinsky's Rules + Cloward-Piven = Obama's Fundamental Change to ...
www.varight.com/.../alinskys-rules-cloward-piven-obamas-fundamental-change-to-so...
Jul 9, 2014 - It was inspired by Alinsky and enumerated by Cloward and Piven. ... Cloward and Frances Fox Piven to devise the “Cloward-Piven Strategy” ...
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 13:38
Spaceship Earth is getting more and more overcrowded and resources are dwindling. The elites know this. That's why they move to cull the rest of us by any means necessary.
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I bet if the interwebs went back far enough there would be articles about the coming dark age because we were running out of whale oil for lamps. The population bomb is fizzing out and actually imploding in some areas. We are far more endangered by the failure of education of the next generations of engineers and scientists than by running out of the current raw materials.
Averageman
06-21-18, 13:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUSjDgSdkMc
There is a lot of truth in this video.
Honestly, being the d*ck I usually am, if I were POTUS, I would give them 100 hours
Mexico gets 100 hours to stop the folks crossing Mexico to enter the United States. At the 100 hour point you simply close the border to all traffic.
The Legislative Branch gets 100 hours to draft and pass some legislation to end this fiasco. At the 100 hour point you simply begin separating minors from adults again and set the judges up at the detention centers and begin a 24-7 process of immediate justice.
Return the pressure where it belongs until this is fixed.
CBS NEWS June 21, 2018, 2:16 PM - More conservative immigration bill fails, vote on "moderate" bill delayed — live updates
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-...immigration-bills-and-how-will-this-play-out/
Key differences between the two bills:
On the matter of family separation — which the Trump administration is halting for now — the conservative bill allows children to be detained with their parents in Department of Homeland Security custody for longer than 20 days by giving DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen "discretion" to do so. The compromise bill goes a step further, by allowing children to be detained with their parents, and mandating that DHS house families who are going through criminal proceedings for first-time border crossings rather than turn them over to the Justice Department, as is current policy, CBS News' Rebecca Kaplan reports. The compromise bill would also provide funding for detention centers.
On DACA — The conservative bill allows for current recipients of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program to apply for a three-year renewable legal status allowing them to work and travel overseas. DACA recipients must use existing pathways to get green cards. The compromise bill allows those who qualified for DACA under the 2012 standards to apply for a six-year, indefinitely renewable legal status. They can also apply for the merit-based visa program without going to their home country first.
Visas — The conservative bill eliminates the diversity lottery and family visas for relatives other than spouses and minor children. It would also increase visas for skilled workers. The compromise bill creates a new, merit-based green card system with points for education, employment, English proficiency and military service by eliminating the diversity lottery and family visas for married children of U.S. citizens, and for siblings of adult U.S. citizens. It also eliminates per-country caps for employment-based immigration.
Border security — The conservative bill authorizes construction of the border wall, technology and other infrastructure. It also adds 5,000 border patrol agents and 5,000 Customs and Border Protection officers, and a biometric entry-exit system. The compromise bill appropriates $25 billion in advance for border security funding for the wall, access and roads, and also includes the addition of a biometric entry-exist system.
Overall immigration levels — The conservative bill would reduce overall immigration levels by about 25 percent per year. The compromise bill would keep immigration bills level.
Averageman
06-21-18, 14:10
The Socialists are getting a lot more mileage out of doing nothing. It would take ten Democrats to go to the other side for this to pass, so that aint happening.
BTW;
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/smuggler-abandons-6-year-old-in-blazing-desert#/
A 6-year-old Costa Rican boy was rescued by U.S. Border Patrol agents after he was abandoned on a border road in Arizona on Tuesday evening. The agents discovered the boy just north of the border west of Lukeville in temperatures over 100 degrees.
The child claimed that he was dropped off by "his uncle" and that Border Patrol would pick him up. Agents say the boy said he was on his way to see his mother in the U.S.
They say that the child was found in good condition. He was taken to Tucson to be checked out and processed. It was unclear what would happen to him next.
I will tell you there is a very special place in hell for his Uncle.
Moose-Knuckle
06-21-18, 14:12
I bet if the interwebs went back far enough there would be articles about the coming dark age because we were running out of whale oil for lamps. The population bomb is fizzing out and actually imploding in some areas. We are far more endangered by the failure of education of the next generations of engineers and scientists than by running out of the current raw materials.
I disagree.
Human population has exploded since the discovery of oil and the invention of the internal combustion engine which allowed food production to be industrialized on a massive scale. We currently feed our planet's population with a few inches of top soil, petrochemicals, and GMOs. If anything happens to the finite fossil fuel or our soil it's game over for a lot of people as we just can't sustain those kind of numbers.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1823/42892419442_45e79d7028_b.jpg
Regarding the 6 YO Costa Rican boy--Only a few days ago there was a case of a little girl lost in the fields somewhere in the midwest. Her little dog (Toto?) remained by her side until she was found safe. Once more the superiority of dogs over people demonstrated in action.
Most immigration enforcement types retire as early as possible (age 50) because their hearts are broken.
I disagree. Human population has exploded since the discovery of oil and the invention of the internal combustion engine which allowed food production to be industrialized on a massive scale. We currently feed our planet's population with a few inches of top soil, petrochemicals, and GMOs. If anything happens to the finite fossil fuel or our soil it's game over for a lot of people as we just can't sustain those kind of numbers.
Don't believe your reasons for the population explosion are the primary causes, more inclined to go with eradication of epidemics which caused mass deaths, and a decrease in infant mortality.
The modern demographic transition started to take place in the middle of the 18th century. Until then, years of extremely high death rates were quite frequent. Extremely high crisis mortality could be the consequence of epidemic diseases or failed harvests and famine, or a combination of both. As a consequence of better hygiene and a better transportation infrastructure (for one, the canals and roads constructed by Austria in the 18th century), amongst other reasons, crisis mortality became less and less frequent.
Later on in the 19th century, child survival began to improve. Vaccination against smallpox for example led to an eradication of the disease, with the last European smallpox pandemic dating from 1871. This way, not only the years of crisis mortality became less frequent, but also the average death rate decreased, from an average 30 deaths per 1000 inhabitants in the beginning of the 19th century to around 15 deaths per 1000 citizens by the beginning of the 20th century. In the meantime, the birth rate however stayed at its previous, high level of 30-35 births per 1000 inhabitants.
The death rate went down but the birth rate still didn’t: this caused a large growth in population. It was only near the end of the nineteenth century (a bit earlier in some countries, later in others) that married couples in large numbers started to reduce their number of children. By the middle of the 20th century, the middle class ideal of a two children household had gained enormous popularity and influence.........
That the population explosion in the developing countries since the second half of the 20th century was so much more intense and massive, is a consequence of the fact that in those countries, the process of demographic transition occurred to a much more extreme extent and on a much larger scale.
On the one hand, mortality decreased faster than in Europe. After all, in Europe the decline in mortality was the result of a gradual understanding of the importance of hygiene and afterwards the development of new medical insights. These insights of course already existed at the start of the demographic transitions in Asian, Latin American and African regions, whereby the life expectancy in these regions could grow faster.
On the other hand, the total fertility – the average number of children per woman – at the start of the transition was a lot higher in many poor regions than it initially was in Europe. For South Korea, Brasil and the Congo, for example, the total fertility rate shortly after the Second World War (at the start of their demographic transition) is estimated to be 6 children per woman. In Belgium this number was close to 4.5 children per woman by the middle of the nineteenth century. In some developing regions, the fertility and birth rate decreased moderately to very fast, but in other regions this decline took off at an exceptionally sluggish pace. As a consequence of these combinations of factors, in most of these countries the population explosion was much larger than it had been in most European countries.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 15:36
Starvation is a political failure, not a technological failure. At least for the last 200 years.
Averageman
06-21-18, 15:57
It's been a political tool a time or two also.
Averageman
06-21-18, 16:01
Honestly, if they can agree on DACA, but can't come up with an immigration bill that will pass, I hope the POTUS vetos the DACA bill untill they fix an immigration bill.
Honestly, if they can agree on DACA, but can't come up with an immigration bill that will pass, I hope the POTUS vetos the DACA bill untill they fix an immigration bill.
Works for me!
This is just something else for the Leftists to be outraged about and to hang their hats on for the midterm elections. There is nothing President Trump can do to placate them. They tried to make gun control the topic of choice but that fell flat.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 19:15
CNN Headline:
Chaos after Trump stops separating families.....
I swear, if Trump threw water on a burning man, they have the headline "Trump tries to drown man".
RetroRevolver77
06-21-18, 19:19
This is just something else for the Leftists to be outraged about and to hang their hats on for the midterm elections. There is nothing President Trump can do to placate them. They tried to make gun control the topic of choice but that fell flat.
Trump needs to have Sessions release the info about all the trafficking that goes on down at the border. Have a major press conference, discuss the 2K+ arrests by the DOJ of the human traffickers in the US this year, and have them then explain why their are certain safety precautions to keep children separated. Turn the whole thing around on the media. Then name some victimized child and have it pushed onto Congress to have them sign a law stating children who have been DNA tested with matched adults can stay together for their duration of incarceration before deportation. The problem is that the media is so slanted, so biased that unless he has a major press conference- none of the info gets out there.
Business_Casual
06-21-18, 21:11
Trump needs to have Sessions release the info about all the trafficking that goes on down at the border. Have a major press conference, discuss the 2K+ arrests by the DOJ of the human traffickers in the US this year, and have them then explain why their are certain safety precautions to keep children separated. Turn the whole thing around on the media. Then name some victimized child and have it pushed onto Congress to have them sign a law stating children who have been DNA tested with matched adults can stay together for their duration of incarceration before deportation. The problem is that the media is so slanted, so biased that unless he has a major press conference- none of the info gets out there.
Is your contention that the MSM that explicitly does not address this issue would be magically compelled to address it? By the way, have you ever “ordered” high-performing individuals and what results did you achieve, out of interest?
That’s just not the way things happen, bro. QANON isn’t real.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-21-18, 22:16
"High-performing individuals"?
Averageman
06-21-18, 22:35
Is your contention that the MSM that explicitly does not address this issue would be magically compelled to address it? By the way, have you ever “ordered” high-performing individuals and what results did you achieve, out of interest?
That’s just not the way things happen, bro. QANON isn’t real.
He could always just come out and address the Nation and blow the doors off of this thing, couldn't he?
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-22-18, 03:24
Time cover is fake news.
The little girl was never separated from his mother...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-iconic-2-year-old-has-been-reunited-with-her-mom-what-about-the-other-kids
Time cover is fake news.
The little girl was never separated from his mother...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-iconic-2-year-old-has-been-reunited-with-her-mom-what-about-the-other-kids
Wait, the MSM lying to promote an agenda? The bias in the MSM is just so blatant that it is laughable that anyone would believe them. I was sitting in the waiting room this week while my car was getting new tires and they had the television tuned to ABC news, which I have not watched in forever. The entire news was about crying children and militant ICE agents and evil President Trump. The newscaster said "Trump lied" several times in several different contexts. I walked out of the waiting room as I could not take so much stupidity thrown at me all at once.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-18, 05:51
Don't believe your reasons for the population explosion are the primary causes, more inclined to go with eradication of epidemics which caused mass deaths, and a decrease in infant mortality.
Industrialized agriculture, medical technologies (i.e. vaccines), et al. all have contributed but when looking at the graph I posted the single biggest factor to make population go straight up was the discovery of oil in 1859 and all that entails.
Starvation is a political failure, not a technological failure. At least for the last 200 years.
All we would need is the right natural disaster; CME, climate change (not man made global warming bullshit), big enough rock to fall from the sky, etc. We can't sustain these numbers indefinitely and they are only going up. If it wasn't for GMOs alone, i.e. pesticide resistant plants there would be a lot more starving people on the planet.
Business_Casual
06-22-18, 07:53
"High-performing individuals"?
Hahaha. I take your point about Sessions.
Industrialized agriculture, medical technologies (i.e. vaccines), et al. all have contributed but when looking at the graph I posted the single biggest factor to make population go straight up was the discovery of oil in 1859 and all that entails.
I don't disagree that the discovery of oil was a factor, just not the primary factor.
RetroRevolver77
06-22-18, 14:30
Wait, the MSM lying to promote an agenda? The bias in the MSM is just so blatant that it is laughable that anyone would believe them. I was sitting in the waiting room this week while my car was getting new tires and they had the television tuned to ABC news, which I have not watched in forever. The entire news was about crying children and militant ICE agents and evil President Trump. The newscaster said "Trump lied" several times in several different contexts. I walked out of the waiting room as I could not take so much stupidity thrown at me all at once.
I wish Trump would just use the government to start suing the media for defamation as well as yank their news licenses.
Averageman
06-22-18, 15:16
I wish Trump would just use the government to start suing the media for defamation as well as yank their news licenses.
He just needs to come out and address the Nation with some facts, figures and stories that are being kept away from the viewers of the MSM.
Have some folks come out with facts, figures, times and places.
Honestly, if folks knew about the Obama Administration, Lois Learner, and the stuff being released about the IRS punitively punishing political enemies, I'm pretty sure it would get some great ratings.
He just needs to come out and address the Nation with some facts, figures and stories that are being kept away from the viewers of the MSM.
This occurred today: actually starts at 19:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLsxnCtxAYc
Can someone please explain to me why we are responsible for the "children" that show up on our border? It's like a hot potato....."Oops, you ended up with it, now it's yours". Bullshit. Why isn't Mexico responsible, since that's the border they crossed from? Unaccompanied, no problem. We put you on a plane with a new stuffed animal and fly your ass back south somewhere. They average 58 days until a "sponsor" takes them. WTF? A "sponsor"? What the hell is that? Oh, I get it, they get to stay. This chaps my ass to an extreme. I am beginning to despise their little undesirable asses just because we are somehow expected to be the answer to their problem. I have no moral problem feeling like this whatsoever. We can't save the world, and we can't take in the world's garbage. The only reason this continues is because we act like the friggin' nanny goody-two-shoes that we do.
I'm soooo tired of getting human refuse dumped on us and the damn bleeding hearts here somehow feel responsible. We don't want them, we don't need them, we didn't ask for them. Screw that asylum crap too. EVERYONE goes back. Period. I don't give a damn what your country is like or what they do to you. Too bad so sad, fix your own country. It's your lot in life, deal with it.
Wanna come here? Have something productive to offer? Fine, get in line. And I don't mean hungry wittle mouths with outstretched, filthy, begging hands.
Let me clear this up ahead of any critical comments: Ukrainian backwash? Nyet. Kenyan rejects? Nope. Syrian riff-raff? No. Malaysian dumps? Negatory. Guatemalan trash? Uh-uh. So I'm an equal opportunity discriminator as far as skin color/ethnicity is concerned. I just don't want the world's flotsam ending up on our perimeter and it is somehow expected that we are instantly their caretakers. I reject that notion outright.
Can someone please explain to me why we are responsible for the "children" that show up on our border? It's like a hot potato....."Oops, you ended up with it, now it's yours". Bullshit. Why isn't Mexico responsible, since that's the border they crossed from? Unaccompanied, no problem. We put you on a plane with a new stuffed animal and fly your ass back south somewhere. They average 58 days until a "sponsor" takes them. WTF? A "sponsor"? What the hell is that? Oh, I get it, they get to stay. This chaps my ass to an extreme. I am beginning to despise their little undesirable asses just because we are somehow expected to be the answer to their problem. I have no moral problem feeling like this whatsoever. We can't save the world, and we can't take in the world's garbage. The only reason this continues is because we act like the friggin' nanny goody-two-shoes that we do.
I'm soooo tired of getting human refuse dumped on us and the damn bleeding hearts here somehow feel responsible. We don't want them, we don't need them, we didn't ask for them. Screw that asylum crap too. EVERYONE goes back. Period. I don't give a damn what your country is like or what they do to you. Too bad so sad, fix your own country. It's your lot in life, deal with it.
Wanna come here? Have something productive to offer? Fine, get in line. And I don't mean hungry wittle mouths with outstretched, filthy, begging hands.
Let me clear this up ahead of any critical comments: Ukrainian backwash? Nyet. Kenyan rejects? Nope. Syrian riff-raff? No. Malaysian dumps? Negatory. Guatemalan trash? Uh-uh. So I'm an equal opportunity discriminator as far as skin color/ethnicity is concerned. I just don't want the world's flotsam ending up on our perimeter and it is somehow expected that we are instantly their caretakers. I reject that notion outright.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any children?
Ahhhhhhh The Sacred Immigrant argument , here is a better one.
The Immorality of Immigration | The Z Blog
thezman.com/wordpress/?p=14158
2 days ago - The fact that immigration is a violation of the state's primary duty to the ... that people believe this as even the sacred immigrant is not enough to ...
Good piece. Unfortunately it's now all about the feelings of people who should never have left their playpens. The Gods of the Copybook Maxims are going to have to limp up once more and try to explain it.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any children?
No. Four legs and fur.
Wouldn't matter in that I would never send any kids of my own unaccompanied in a dangerous trek to a foreign country, then expect them to be openly welcomed and given warm fuzzies forever. I'm certainly not advocating inhumane treatment but the basics (which they are probably doing without in their place of origin) are enough for a temporary basis until they are sent back.
If the world flooded us with a million unskilled, needy, welfare-level aliens are we obliged to accept them? You can use religious or philanthropical ideals as your answer but is it ultimately sustainable?
If the world flooded us with a million unskilled, needy, welfare-level aliens are we obliged to accept them? You can use religious or philanthropical ideals as your answer but is it ultimately sustainable?
If you've read my posts, you would know that I favor locking the border tight as the first step to immigration reform.
As far as the kid thing, I've worked with folks that don't have kids, I have friends that don't have kids, and I have a sister that doesn't have kids.
My experiences are that by and large folks who have, or have had, kids look at things a little differently.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-22-18, 22:16
No asylum unless we have a regime change plan in place. If these places are such **** ***** that we have to take everyone from there as a refugee, we have the moral obligation to smite their leadership and put new people in charge. At the very least sieze their country assets to pay for their citizens.
Why is there no discussion about WHY all these people are coming?
The immigration issue is easily solved.
1. Lock down the border. Actual walls, electronic walls, drones (lots of them), make a no-go zone inside of which any and all humans are shot without question, post signs everywhere along the southern border that trespasses will be shot on sight without question, massively increase the border patrol on the border. Completely militarize the border.
2. Reform our legal immigration process. Allow people who want to work to enter, pay taxes, pay into the system. They must have work arranged prior to arrival. Process would be merit based like essentially all other developed nations. Priority is given to those applicants with a desirable trade or skill.
3. Strict surveillance of immigrants in the US, keep track of visas, work, etc. Mandatory check in with immigration every 6 months. Miss your interview, one grace period after which you’re deported.
4. Illegal immigrants over the age of 18: They May apply for permanent resident status but can never become citizens. That is the punishment for coming here illegally.The application process is a 10 year probationary period. Maintain a job, avoid committing a crime and you get permanent status. Ever commit a crime greater than a misdemeanor ever (including after having a green card) and you’re deported.
5. Illegal immigrants under the age of 18: They May apply for permanent resident status or citizenship, but can never become citizens. The application process is a 10 year probationary period. Maintain a job, avoid committing a crime and you get permanent or citizenship. Commit a crime during the probationary period and you’re deported.
6. Absolutely no state sponsored social welfare support during the probationary period for anyone. We don’t need more people sucking off the government teat.
7. Prosecute all public officials who perpetuate sanctuary cities and harbor illegal immigrants.
8. Fine employers who hire illegal immigrants.
#4 and 5 may be controversial to some. There is both a human factor and a political factor. These measures ensure that we are not kicking out otherwise good people who wish to simply have a better life. Additionally, it gives a carrot to the left and the mainstream that we are not inhuman, that we care about helping people. We must ensure that the dems do not allow illegals cart Blanche to become citizens, because there is a high probability they will all vote Democrat. It’s the whole reason the dems want them to be citizens. If we don’t take pre-emptive action on this, we will see the dems grant all of the illegals the ability to be citizens.
Re: the human factor, the vast majority of illegals with whom I’ve come into contact are good people with strong work ethic, strong family values, who simply want a better/safer/etc life for themselves and their family.
#4 and 5 may be controversial to some. There is both a human factor and a political factor. These measures ensure that we are not kicking out otherwise good people who wish to simply have a better life. Additionally, it gives a carrot to the left and the mainstream that we are not inhuman, that we care about helping people. We must ensure that the dems do not allow illegals cart Blanche to become citizens, because there is a high probability they will all vote Democrat. It’s the whole reason the dems want them to be citizens. If we don’t take pre-emptive action on this, we will see the dems grant all of the illegals the ability to be citizens.
So, in essence, you are in favor of granting or denying citizenship to lawful immigrants passed on what political affiliation they MIGHT have? Sounds legit. Sounds third world or Soviet Block legit, in fact. Definitely what the Framers were going for.
If they are here legally, and they are paying taxes, they should have a shot at becoming a citizen. Damn, I mean they are already here in that case.
You want folks to become Republicans, make the Republican Party the party they want to join, make it the party that gives them a chance at success.
Right now neither party is doing a good job of that. The Democrats have the advantage with the low income because by and large they don't have quite the 'fvck you buddy, I've got mine' vibe the Republican Party puts out.
No asylum unless we have a regime change plan in place. If these places are such **** ***** that we have to take everyone from there as a refugee, we have the moral obligation to smite their leadership and put new people in charge. At the very least sieze their country assets to pay for their citizens.
Why is there no discussion about WHY all these people are coming?
For those that haven't seen it yet: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?207698-Mexican-Pres-Candidate-says-quot-Flood-the-US-with-immigrants-quot#post2636443 Mexican Pres Candidate says, "Flood the US with immigrants"
Business_Casual
06-23-18, 06:46
If the world flooded us with a million unskilled, needy, welfare-level aliens are we obliged to accept them? You can use religious or philanthropical ideals as your answer but is it ultimately sustainable?
The current estimate is 11 million, but that number hasn’t changed in a decade. Alternatively sourced, the number is over 30 million.
If you've read my posts, you would know that I favor locking the border tight as the first step to immigration reform.
As far as the kid thing, I've worked with folks that don't have kids, I have friends that don't have kids, and I have a sister that doesn't have kids.
My experiences are that by and large folks who have, or have had, kids look at things a little differently.
I agree 100%, but the wall will still have ports of entry and the dregs will show up there whining about asylum. That asylum shit has got to go. With a wall in place asylum is what everyone will suddenly be seeking. My life sucks in Shitemala so therefore I have a legit reason to barge into your country. Know what "asylum" is to me? An Iraqi terp who worked with U.S. forces and is now a pariah in his own country. He even has former soldiers he worked with willing to sponsor him. THAT is what asylum is for, not just "My life sucks in XXX".
Still no one has answered why we are suddenly responsible for these aliens? (not necessarily directed at you 26 Inf, just a general question) Just because they showed up on our doorstep? Nah, not good enough for me.
I'll use the analogy of your house: a couple of street urchins show up at your doorstep. Are you responsible---ethically, morally, or legally---to take them in, let them stay, and PAY for their upbringing? I would maybe give them a sammich and bottle of water, then promptly proceed to go about returning them to where they belong. Why can't we as a country see the simplicity in that idea? Why does it have to be complicated by bleeding hearts?
I so tire of hearing "Americans are compassionate" and then we bend over backwards and jump through hoops to prove it. I really don't care one iota what the rest of the world thinks of us, especially when they are dumping their refuse on our doorstep. Know what they really think? "Americans are fools".
Averageman
06-23-18, 09:00
For those that haven't seen it yet: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?207698-Mexican-Pres-Candidate-says-quot-Flood-the-US-with-immigrants-quot#post2636443 Mexican Pres Candidate says, "Flood the US with immigrants"
When your system is so corrupt, don't you want to encourage the needy and unskilled to pack up and leave? We are a pressure relief valve for Mexico, they don't want the system to be fixed, it allows for an extreme level of corruption and graft. It is far easier to create a system that self flushes it's problems off on someone else.
The current estimate is 11 million, but that number hasn’t changed in a decade. Alternatively sourced, the number is over 30 million.
I believe there are estimates that go as high as thirty million.
We allow the left to own the narrative that anyone wanting the border secured is a Nazi. That simply doesn't follow logic when you consider the amount of human trafficking, drug running and the possibility of being infiltrated by terrorists.
The POTUS came out yesterday with the "Angel Mom's" and did a good thirty minutes of pushing back on that narrative. I'm sorry though, he wasted his time, doing that on a Friday afternoon is akin to not doing it at all. He needs to address the Nation from the Oval Office to make his case and he needs to do it on a Monday at 7:00 pm. He needs to make many of the same points that some clear thinkers here have presented.
So, in essence, you are in favor of granting or denying citizenship to lawful immigrants passed on what political affiliation they MIGHT have? Sounds legit. Sounds third world or Soviet Block legit, in fact. Definitely what the Framers were going for.
If they are here legally, and they are paying taxes, they should have a shot at becoming a citizen. Damn, I mean they are already here in that case.
You want folks to become Republicans, make the Republican Party the party they want to join, make it the party that gives them a chance at success.
Right now neither party is doing a good job of that. The Democrats have the advantage with the low income because by and large they don't have quite the 'fvck you buddy, I've got mine' vibe the Republican Party puts out.
Not sure how you took that from my post. I am talking about how to deal with ILLEGAL immigrants.
RetroRevolver77
06-23-18, 09:52
I have no problem with immigrants nor people that want to come here to make a better life for themselves but they need to contribute. Breaking our laws to get into the country is just the first step of many that they take to eventually become parasites upon our taxpayers. Places like California are forever ruined and bankrupt because of this issue so stopping them from coming here is a good start. From there we can evaluate them and allow who is the best fit for our nation to come in.
Averageman
06-23-18, 11:44
And because every day we need to be reminded everyday that the Deep State exists and runs on a totally different set of rules; I give you the opinion of James Clapper.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/06/23/clapper-says-trump-era-is-a-real-test-of-our-resilience/23466250/
“This president makes that very difficult because I feel that our institutions and values are under assault both from an external source –*the Russians*– and from an internal source – our own president,” Clapper continued. “This is a real test of our resilience as a country, as a system of governance – it is a real test.”*
Clapper further noted, “The United States is known as a beacon of freedom and justice. A haven for the downtrodden…This is not consistent…with our values.”*
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27/darrell-issa-james-clapper-lied-to-congress-about-nsa-and-should-be-fired/?utm_term=.d1ff72901ea4
"Director Clapper continues to hold his position despite lying to Congress under oath about the existence of bulk data collection programs in March 2013," the letter reads. "Asking Director Clapper, and other federal intelligence officials who misrepresented programs to Congress and the courts, to report to you on needed reforms ... is not a credible solution."
There is no one who's opinion I value more when it comes to integrity and honesty than a known Liar and Purger-er.
Thanks Jim, keep it classy.
I would rather have a hard working illegal who has been here for 20 years has a family works hard and so on then many of the punk millennial pukes that want to destroy our country that were born here maybe we need to have a exchange program !
all those softy lefties can give up their citizenship to those who really need it :)
as someone that lived in Central America
also my wife is a LEGAL immigrant from another country
and I have kids
the border issue should be %100 Mexico problem not ours they should not even be allowed into our country and if they are caught immediate like get in taking you back and dumping you
I do not blame many trying to get out of Central America but the major issue is the crime of why they are trying to get out and the criminals are the major ones causing the issues
we just need to start to say OK anyone caught coming into our country with drugs immediate death penalty or we be soft and put them in prison for 25 years no questions asked no probation no help nothing a prison where you will die if you do not have outside help that is what they do down there
and anyone caught crossing is turned around immediately and dumped into Mexico or Canada
I'll use the analogy of your house: a couple of street urchins show up at your doorstep. Are you responsible---ethically, morally, or legally---to take them in, let them stay, and PAY for their upbringing? I would maybe give them a sammich and bottle of water, then promptly proceed to go about returning them to where they belong. Why can't we as a country see the simplicity in that idea? Why does it have to be complicated by bleeding hearts?
Your probably asking the wrong question to the wrong guy on that one. Morally, I believe we should try to help anyone in need. Like most people, I find it difficult to act on that as often as I should. Unfortunately, we live in a time when many folks have never done anything for anyone else unless they were paid to do so.
In terms of unaccompanied children I think what we 'owe' them is different than what we owe children who are with their families. I don't think we need to just loft them back over the border wall.
These are all interesting discussions, and we will still be having them ten-years from now if we don't seal the border.
Your probably asking the wrong question to the wrong guy on that one. Morally, I believe we should try to help anyone in need. Like most people, I find it difficult to act on that as often as I should. Unfortunately, we live in a time when many folks have never done anything for anyone else unless they were paid to do so.
In terms of unaccompanied children I think what we 'owe' them is different than what we owe children who are with their families. I don't think we need to just loft them back over the border wall.
These are all interesting discussions, and we will still be having them ten-years from now if we don't seal the border.
Even if we sealed the border you would still have the "asylum" issue which would quickly become every illegal's new rationale since they couldn't just sneak across anymore.
Alright, elaborate if you will. What exactly do we as a country "owe" the unaccompanied minors.......and where do we draw the line, 'cause they keep coming?
We "owe" them humane treatment, i.e. the bare necessities like some food and water, and I'll even splurge and say some medical care. But then they go back south to somewhere. The humane treatment is ONLY for the short while (VERY short) that they are in our custody. They are ultimately someone else's responsibility, not that of the United States. They can be wards of the governments of Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, or Mexico (i.e. from whence they came) as easily as they can be wards of our government. In fact, those are the governments that they should be wards of. The assumption that they are now our problem just because they show up at our border with hands outstretched is absurd.
And for those that would foster or adopt, you don't get one friggin' dime of taxpayer money to do so (federal, state, or local). Not a penny. It's on YOU 100%. Bet that "sponsor" list would dwindle rather quickly.
Business_Casual
06-23-18, 14:37
You guys keep talking about border control as if that’s the solution, it isn’t. That approach is no different from gun control or drug prohibition. The problem to deal with is what brings them here - jobs and benefits. Free health care in the ER. Schools and lunches for their kids.
You guys keep talking about border control as if that’s the solution, it isn’t. That approach is no different from gun control or drug prohibition. The problem to deal with is what brings them here - jobs and benefits. Free health care in the ER. Schools and lunches for their kids.
To be fair, border control is a HUGE part of it. If they can't get across then no one can hire them. But if you do not seal the border airtight those bolded things will NEVER disappear with our do-gooder policies. Better to not have them here in the first place then the bleeding hearts can't see to it that they get those "freebies".
You guys keep talking about border control as if that’s the solution, it isn’t. That approach is no different from gun control or drug prohibition. The problem to deal with is what brings them here - jobs and benefits. Free health care in the ER. Schools and lunches for their kids.
I understand why they come, but if they don't get across the border they don't get those things.
You guys keep talking about border control as if that’s the solution, it isn’t. That approach is no different from gun control or drug prohibition. The problem to deal with is what brings them here - jobs and benefits. Free health care in the ER. Schools and lunches for their kids.
This. The easiest, cheapest, and most humane way to deal with the problem. Illegals will self deport when they can no longer get jobs, including all the illegals that didn't cross the southern border to get here.
Averageman
06-23-18, 15:47
If they aren't from Mexico, they had to cross Mexico to get here.
Therefore, the problem is Mexico.
Simple yet direct action against the Mexican government is immediately necessary.
A good number overstay a Visa as well.
Alright, elaborate if you will. What exactly do we as a country "owe" the unaccompanied minors.......and where do we draw the line, 'cause they keep coming?
And for those that would foster or adopt, you don't get one friggin' dime of taxpayer money to do so (federal, state, or local). Not a penny. It's on YOU 100%. Bet that "sponsor" list would dwindle rather quickly.
What we 'owe' them is what we would 'owe' an abandoned child anyplace in the world, as you said humane treatment, needed medical care. I think that we also 'owe' them a return to their country of origin, not just punted over the border, and that we need to ensure they are reunited with family.
As far as adoption and foster care, the list for adoption probably wouldn't shrink as quickly as you'd think. The foster care volunteers would shrink, but many families would still foster with the intent to adopt.
Too many folks in America are becoming filled with hate for anything/anyone unlike them. That is a bad thing for America, IMO.
We need to close the border off. We need to deal humanely with the illegals already present in the United States. Some of those illegals are very productive citizens, some aren't. We need to humanely rid ourselves of those who aren't. We need to punish those who hire and take advantage of the illegals. IMO, they are a bigger problem than the illegals at this point.
We can do all that without a lot of hate and drama and tin horn threats.
Not sure how you took that from my post. I am talking about how to deal with ILLEGAL immigrants.
Probably focused too much on this: We must ensure that the dems do not allow illegals cart Blanche to become citizens, because there is a high probability they will all vote Democrat.
Because that is a sorry-assed reason for developing policy.
Otherwise, I pretty much agreed with all you wrote.
What we 'owe' them is what we would 'owe' an abandoned child anyplace in the world, as you said humane treatment, needed medical care. I think that we also 'owe' them a return to their country of origin, not just punted over the border, and that we need to ensure they are reunited with family.
As far as adoption and foster care, the list for adoption probably wouldn't shrink as quickly as you'd think. The foster care volunteers would shrink, but many families would still foster with the intent to adopt.
Too many folks in America are becoming filled with hate for anything/anyone unlike them [that in my case is not because they aren't like me but because they are being forced upon us and those of use who don't welcome it with open arms are being shamed just as your statement alludes to]. That is a bad thing for America, IMO.
We need to close the border off. We need to deal humanely with the illegals already present in the United States. Some of those illegals are very productive citizens [only they aren't "citizens" and should never be since they are here illegally], some aren't. We need to humanely rid ourselves of those who aren't. We need to punish those who hire and take advantage of the illegals. IMO, they are a bigger problem than the illegals at this point.
We can do all that without a lot of hate and drama and tin horn threats.
You (not you personally) force people into a corner and you don't like their reaction? Resentment because needy, resource-sucking elements are invading our country unwanted and it is expected that we are now responsible for them? Sure, easy to say it's because of being "unlike" the rest of us. I don't care (as I've stated before) if they were from Ukraine, Kenya, the Philippines, or Latin America. It isn't a "different" thing, it's a "you have no business being here" thing.
Other than that just about everything you said I agree with. It is refreshing to see you feel a return to home of record is the end-goal, as it should be. You may have a more philanthropic bent than I do but not too far apart.
The country does not need anymore people.
The whole thing about how these illegals are producers is a lie. They consume more government resources than they pay in taxes.
Averageman
06-24-18, 11:41
The country does not need anymore people.
The whole thing about how these illegals are producers is a lie. They consume more government resources than they pay in taxes.
A very good point.
Entering the country illegally places you behind the eight ball. If you are caught you might be deported, therefore you cannot lead a "normal" life as you will always be dependent upon hiding your status first and taking care of everything else second.
Sanctuary Cities have removed some of the burden on the criminal alien, but have then in turn placed that burden on the tax payer of those local municipalities. I'm sure many Churches have welfare like programs that support those here in our Country illegally, I'm pretty sure that mine, though not very well advertised does.
So essentially not being a citizen and not being documented leaves the burden to others to carry forward for them. I'm not sure how these folks can qualify for Federal assistance, but I am also pretty sure they do. No one in the Federal Government is being very transparent about just how much this is costing us.
I'm absolutely sure that locally a lot of of the Children attending our schools are either here illegally or are anchor babies. Schools being the breeding ground for leftist dialog and idea's, I doubt I could find out those numbers either. BTW, we have free breakfast and lunch going all summer long, I'm guessing of you qualify for that, you qualify for a number of other programs to feed your children also.
To say this is about race is a lie, it isn't about race at all, it is about Laws, Immigration and Justice for folks paying taxes and those policies, laws and monies going to subsidize people who are here and by law shouldn't be.
The guy trying to raise a family, do the right thing and pay his taxes, send his kids to college and be a good citizen is being used as a tool for both the left as they will benefit by getting more voters (and these folks will eventually get to vote if they aren't doing so now);and big business's who want cheap labor. \
We are squeezing the middle and lower middle class out of existence with these policies and doing it under the guise of not wanting to be called a Nazi racist.
A very good point.
Entering the country illegally places you behind the eight ball. If you are caught you might be deported, therefore you cannot lead a "normal" life as you will always be dependent upon hiding your status first and taking care of everything else second.
Sanctuary Cities have removed some of the burden on the criminal alien, but have then in turn placed that burden on the tax payer of those local municipalities. I'm sure many Churches have welfare like programs that support those here in our Country illegally, I'm pretty sure that mine, though not very well advertised does.
So essentially not being a citizen and not being documented leaves the burden to others to carry forward for them. I'm not sure how these folks can qualify for Federal assistance, but I am also pretty sure they do. No one in the Federal Government is being very transparent about just how much this is costing us.
I'm absolutely sure that locally a lot of of the Children attending our schools are either here illegally or are anchor babies. Schools being the breeding ground for leftist dialog and idea's, I doubt I could find out those numbers either. BTW, we have free breakfast and lunch going all summer long, I'm guessing of you qualify for that, you qualify for a number of other programs to feed your children also.
To say this is about race is a lie, it isn't about race at all, it is about Laws, Immigration and Justice for folks paying taxes and those policies, laws and monies going to subsidize people who are here and by law shouldn't be.
The guy trying to raise a family, do the right thing and pay his taxes, send his kids to college and be a good citizen is being used as a tool for both the left as they will benefit by getting more voters (and these folks will eventually get to vote if they aren't doing so now);and big business's who want cheap labor. \
We are squeezing the middle and lower middle class out of existence with these policies and doing it under the guise of not wanting to be called a Nazi racist.
Oh I'm WAAAYYY past giving a damn what they call me. I have a few choice words for them too!
RetroRevolver77
06-24-18, 17:17
Portland Occupiers Shut Down ICE Office, Replace American Flag with 'Refugees Welcome' Flag.
"Occupy" protesters have been camping outside an ICE office in Portland, Oregon, leading the facility to temporarily shut down. The occupiers say that they won't leave until the Trump administration revokes its "zero tolerance" immigration policy.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/portland-occupiers-shut-down-ice-office-steal-flag-replace-it-with-refugees-welcome-flag/
Hope the Feds serve them up some tacos with a side of pepper spray and hickory shampoo.
Portland Occupiers Shut Down ICE Office, Replace American Flag with 'Refugees Welcome' Flag.
"Occupy" protesters have been camping outside an ICE office in Portland, Oregon, leading the facility to temporarily shut down. The occupiers say that they won't leave until the Trump administration revokes its "zero tolerance" immigration policy.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/portland-occupiers-shut-down-ice-office-steal-flag-replace-it-with-refugees-welcome-flag/
Hope the Feds serve them up some tacos with a side of pepper spray and hickory shampoo.
They are not "undocumented migrants", they are not "refugees".
THEY ARE ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!
I love that phrase 'cause it royally pisses off the other side. That is why I make a point of using it whenever referring to the south-of-the-border refuse invading us.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-24-18, 18:52
Portland Occupiers Shut Down ICE Office, Replace American Flag with 'Refugees Welcome' Flag.
"Occupy" protesters have been camping outside an ICE office in Portland, Oregon, leading the facility to temporarily shut down. The occupiers say that they won't leave until the Trump administration revokes its "zero tolerance" immigration policy.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/portland-occupiers-shut-down-ice-office-steal-flag-replace-it-with-refugees-welcome-flag/
Hope the Feds serve them up some tacos with a side of pepper spray and hickory shampoo.
Why not just run a flag that says "Increase Pro-Trump Mid-term turnout"?
It is amazing that they will do these lawless acts and there seems to be no repercussions? When the bump-stock ban comes, imagine if some people took over an ATF office and put up a Gadsden flag?
A blame the Trump side a little bit. Our side seems to like to over-due the rhetoric a bit. It isn't a 'zero-tolerance' policy, it is a 'complete enforcement' policy, or 'removes the child trafficking loophole". Plus, they have had enough time now to run DNA over the past few months. How many of these kids are actually paired with real family members? Show how some of the 'refugees' and fleeing families and jobs. We also need to be making sure that these people end up in dem strongholds where they can't tilt elections- and only add cost and inconvenience to the people screaming about them coming here.
Amazing how the Congressional Black Caucus is so quiet when this totally disadvantages continental Africans from being able to come here- and escape real civil war.
And frankly, we need the NSA to be running comms intercepts on the people south of the border and the Dem operatives and pols on this side of the border. Conspiracy against the United States seems to be the crime de jour for the DOJ when it comes to colluding with foreigners to circumvent the law and influence elections.
This is about ending the enforcement of illegal immigration and the erasing of the border- nothing more- and for some reason the GOP can't message that worth a crap.
Crossing that border illegally, needs to be a Felony the very first time someone does it, not the second, third or fourth.
Stop people from crossing, and it is no longer a US problem, it is a Mexican problem.
Seriously, we are being invaded, if we can send troops to Iraq/Afg, we can send them to the southern border. Nobody needs to be shot, but nobody gets across.
One of my favorite Zep songs, now a parody
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgrEXcW7Jpg
And another
https://youtu.be/PSWMpf94LRs
Stop people from crossing, and it is no longer a US problem, it is a Mexican problem.
Seriously, we are being invaded, if we can send troops to Iraq/Afg, we can send them to the southern border. Nobody needs to be shot, but nobody gets across.
We have been helping Mexico at their southern border with $ and gear to make it a Guatemalan problem "... security assistance program for Mexico. Well over $100 million has been destined, or designated, for use on the Mexican-Guatemalan border. So they support what Mexico is trying to do in that area, providing intelligence, communications equipment. They have given X-ray technology, even canine units. There's a lot that goes on to strengthen the capacity of Mexico to ensure and protect its borders."
http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/04/04/mexico-border-enforcement-migrants
But, no most of that $ goes into the pockets of corrupt Mexican politicians, mil, etc.
One of my favorite Zep songs, now a parody
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgrEXcW7Jpg
Oh that is awesome!
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-26-18, 07:59
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/25/ice-tool-illegality-abolish-zephyr-teachout
It's the Guardian and it's an op-ed piece, but it is from a candidate for NYS AG that wrote it.
I don't think that he really understands the word 'atrocity', for some reason doesn't now how to use acronyms (Ice is frozen water, ICE is Immigration and Customs Enforcement), and calling them migrants makes them sound like they have some kind of super-natural 6th sense to come to the US.
I still find it the oddest thing when the left complains about how powerful the govt is and how we can't trust it because it violates our basic rights in unaccountable ways- so much so that even teachers need a union to protect themselves from it- but at the same time they want to have it run out healthcare and remove any viable way to resist it.
SomeOtherGuy
06-26-18, 09:56
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/25/ice-tool-illegality-abolish-zephyr-teachout
It's the Guardian and it's an op-ed piece, but it is from a candidate for NYS AG that wrote it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_Teachout
Interesting name. Credentials on paper look awesome, but the gist is not so impressive, and being unable to recognize and capitalize an acronym (ICE) is stunningly inept for someone with those credentials. I can only guess that calling it "Ice" instead of "ICE" is meant to be some kind of slur, but it's not clear. Otherwise - appalling stupidity.
Was the Kunstler piece already posted here? Even liberal dems are starting to admit that the whole charade about illegal immigration is merely a ploy to ensure votes for "D" in the future.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-26-18, 12:34
So with SCOTUS allowing the travel ban and giving POTUS some acknowledgement of power- along with the rule of law, and logic over sentiment- maybe the southern ‘crisis’ will work it’s way out.
For all the McConnell haters out there, you have to admit that with out him this case would have gone the other way.
Averageman
06-26-18, 12:50
At what point in "Overwhelming" the Border, "Occupying" the entrances to Courtrooms and Holding area's does the Border Patrol, ICE and DHS miss one of these rescue missions where there are 50+ Border Jumpers stuck in the middle of the desert, without water or a clue of where to go and everyone dies?
It's a self fulfilling prophesy, you just drag the system to a halt and get ready to blame the system you broke.
Moose-Knuckle
06-26-18, 13:15
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr_Teachout
Interesting name. Credentials on paper look awesome
Born in '71 no doubt to radicalized boomer parents.
Her name says it all. Credentials, lmao, many will pre-jizz to her academic merits but to those that are intellectually honest the vast majority of academia is an indoctrination mill for the left.
Trump's order to deport without "Due Process" is A-OK with me! They don't have any friggin' "Due Process" if caught right at the border and not going any further. Humane treatment while in custody is the best we can offer them. Put 'em all on a plane/bus/train/whatever and send them back. They DO NOT have a "right" (although the Left would have you think so) to this or that. They are captured at the border, detained, and deported.
Perhaps it's time for the SCOTUS to determine exactly what comprises "Due Process" for illegal aliens caught in the act (and their damn kids).
Averageman
06-26-18, 20:38
We're allowing people to confuse the issues.
Is it more compassionate to entice people to come here and break the law to get in, or is it more compassionate to entice them not to begin the journey?
You can find numerous stories about what some of these people go through to get here. From what I have read a lot of the females that begin the journey deal with sexual assaults along the way and then have to rely upon finding a Coyote who won't take advantage of them and leave them stranded along the route.
If they arrive in relatively one piece, they then must spend the rest of their time avoiding being caught, again leaving them vulnerable in many ways.
If they are caught they are returned to their point of origin. Some will try again and some wont, but it would be far better if we could stop the process in their home Country.
We aren't doing anything "compassionate" by promoting this, actually I would say quite the opposite. There are a lot of bleached bones in the South West that are there because liberals are promoting a false story that leads people to their deaths.
If we begin turning them back without due process it might well be the fastest way to end this problem. Compassionate, no, but honest in a cruel reality sort of way.
Along with this we must punish Mexico for allowing it to happen.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-26-18, 20:47
You are at the border with out a passport or visa; what is the issue with saying you don’t get in? As if trying to sneak in makes it better somehow? That and BS claims of asylum need to have real bite, like not ever being able to emigrate ever, maybe a family ban too.
Business_Casual
06-27-18, 05:43
What makes me angry is that we even have to have this debate. Obama did so much damage in so little time.
What makes me angry is that we even have to have this debate. Obama did so much damage in so little time.
No—it was slowly, then suddenly. You could see this coming 40 years age. The Reagan amnesty of 1986 just kicked the can down the road. Nobody cared.
You guys keep talking about border control as if that’s the solution, it isn’t. That approach is no different from gun control or drug prohibition. The problem to deal with is what brings them here - jobs and benefits. Free health care in the ER. Schools and lunches for their kids.
Control of the border is the solution and I'll explain why. Regardless of why they come, the fact remains that once they are here, they are, by law, entitled to all of the things you mention. The 14th Amendment says so and the equal protection clause is not going to be reinterpeted by the SCOTUS. Everyone seems to think that controlling the border is such a difficult thing to do. We as a nation have achieved much more seemingly impossible goals than that in the past. The former East-West German border was locked down as tight as a drum and the East-West Berlin border was even tighter. Granted it was only about half the length. The North-South Korean border remains quite effectively sealed. We as a nation are not lacking in our physical, technological or even logistical ability to seal our border. We are lacking in our political will to do so.
The real question is why is the political will not there? I suggest an investigative tool that always yields results; Follow the money.
Moose-Knuckle
06-27-18, 15:08
What makes me angry is that we even have to have this debate. Obama did so much damage in so little time.
True, but the DNC have been at this since at least 1965 with the Hart-Celler Act.
Doc Safari
07-06-18, 13:55
More winning:
https://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2018/07/06/mass-migration-advocates-fan-fear-trump-implements-obama-anti-fraud-plan/
Pro-amnesty activists are claiming sadism, racism, and brutality as President Donald Trump’s immigration agency implements an anti-fraud plan drafted under former President Barack Obama.
The 2016 anti-fraud plan uses recently computerized fingerprints to check if migrants created false identities to get green cards or citizenship.
Since then, a task force at the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services agency has identified roughly 3,000 suspected cases of fraud in the huge immigrant population of roughly 20 million immigrants accepted since the 1990s.
“We finally have a process in place to get to the bottom of all these bad cases and start denaturalizing people who should not have been naturalized in the first place,” L. Francis Cissna, the director of USCIS, told the Associated Press in early June 2018. “What we’re looking at, when you boil it all down, is potentially a few thousand cases.”
U.S. citizenship [was given] to at least 858 individuals ordered deported or removed under another identity when, during the naturalization process, their digital fingerprint records were not available …
To date, and with assistance from [Office of Operations Coordination ] and USCIS, ICE has identified and prioritized 120 individuals to refer to the Department of Justice for potential criminal prosecution and denaturalization …
DHS has established a team to review the records of the 858 aliens with final deportation orders who were naturalized under a different identity …
As of November 2015, [the Office of Operations Coordination ] had identified 953 more individuals who had final deportation orders under another identity and had been naturalized; some of these individuals were from special interest countries or neighboring countries with high rates of fraud.
Since 2017, the Justice Department has moved to strip citizenship from an al Qaeda operative, a fake family of diversity-lottery winners, a child-molester and a migrant who defrauded other migrants.
My take: we will now observe a moment of silence so we can hear the liberals shit themselves.
Moose-Knuckle
07-06-18, 14:02
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1766/42337924075_a12433e5b1.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-06-18, 17:26
More winning:
https://www.breitbart.com/immigration/2018/07/06/mass-migration-advocates-fan-fear-trump-implements-obama-anti-fraud-plan/
My take: we will now observe a moment of silence so we can hear the liberals shit themselves.
I saw somewhere that they are running DNA on 'families' from the recent unpleasantness.... That will be more awkward for Dems than Chelsea and Bill getting their 23&Me reports back....
Doc Safari
07-06-18, 17:30
I saw somewhere that they are running DNA on 'families' from the recent unpleasantness.... That will be more awkward for Dems than Chelsea and Bill getting their 23&Me reports back....
Of course it will. You can't fake a DNA test being conducted by an independent tester. Documents can be forged, but if a child isn't related to an adult there's no hiding it. The Dems will go bat shit crazy when the statistics are released as to how many VERIFIED fake "parent-child" groups there are.
The whole "don't separate children from their parents" lie will be outed as just that: a lie.
RetroRevolver77
07-07-18, 14:05
Of course it will. You can't fake a DNA test being conducted by an independent tester. Documents can be forged, but if a child isn't related to an adult there's no hiding it. The Dems will go bat shit crazy when the statistics are released as to how many VERIFIED fake "parent-child" groups there are.
The whole "don't separate children from their parents" lie will be outed as just that: a lie.
The real reason why the upper echelons of the Democrat elite are screaming over this is because they want to keep trafficking people. One of the Anons posted that the Obama administration set aside a huge chain of "national monuments" to create a safe passage corridor for human traffickers from California to Nevada, which from there leads into Colorado and the rest of the country. This goes all the way to the top.
Averageman
07-08-18, 13:22
Of course it will. You can't fake a DNA test being conducted by an independent tester. Documents can be forged, but if a child isn't related to an adult there's no hiding it. The Dems will go bat shit crazy when the statistics are released as to how many VERIFIED fake "parent-child" groups there are.
The whole "don't separate children from their parents" lie will be outed as just that: a lie.
Oh, I so want those results to hit the Media square in the face.
The truth bomb about to go off on these guys is monumental.
Here's a good article on the how and why.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/06/21/documents-human-traffickers-regularly-pose-as-parents-of-children-to-cross-the-border-illegally-n2492737
Because of fraudulent documentation, profits to smugglers, and false asylum claims, there is essentially no way to prove or verify adults traveling with children are indeed their parents.
In April 2016, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley warned about catch-and-release policies enabling the smuggling industry. In the past, any non-Mexican or Canadian individual illegally crossing the border with a child was considered a family unit, processed and released into the interior. Current zero-tolerance policies require they be detained until prosecution.
“A recent Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report confirmed that human smuggling rings are exploiting children in order to prevent the detention of the undocumented immigrants they’re smuggling into the United States. They are pairing children with unrelated adults, knowing adults who enter the United States with children won’t be detained,” he said.
Smugglers are hired for as much as $20,000 per person and pair unrelated adults to unrelated children. The entire purpose is to claim asylum, valid or not, with the understanding that “family units” are apprehended and then released to the interior of the United States. Since 2008, asylum claims have ballooned by 1,700 percent according to DHS data.
Under the Obama administration, 80-90 percent of individuals making asylum claims with children were released after being processed and given a court date. Inevitably, they started living in the U.S. illegally for years to come. This is the policy the Trump administration is trying to change.
Oh, I so want those results to hit the Media square in the face.
The truth bomb about to go off on these guys is monumental.
Here's a good article on the how and why.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/06/21/documents-human-traffickers-regularly-pose-as-parents-of-children-to-cross-the-border-illegally-n2492737
Because of fraudulent documentation, profits to smugglers, and false asylum claims, there is essentially no way to prove or verify adults traveling with children are indeed their parents.
In April 2016, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley warned about catch-and-release policies enabling the smuggling industry. In the past, any non-Mexican or Canadian individual illegally crossing the border with a child was considered a family unit, processed and released into the interior. Current zero-tolerance policies require they be detained until prosecution.
“A recent Department of Homeland Security (DHS) report confirmed that human smuggling rings are exploiting children in order to prevent the detention of the undocumented immigrants they’re smuggling into the United States. They are pairing children with unrelated adults, knowing adults who enter the United States with children won’t be detained,” he said.
Smugglers are hired for as much as $20,000 per person and pair unrelated adults to unrelated children. The entire purpose is to claim asylum, valid or not, with the understanding that “family units” are apprehended and then released to the interior of the United States. Since 2008, asylum claims have ballooned by 1,700 percent according to DHS data.
Under the Obama administration, 80-90 percent of individuals making asylum claims with children were released after being processed and given a court date. Inevitably, they started living in the U.S. illegally for years to come. This is the policy the Trump administration is trying to change.
I would love to be one of the agents who decide asylum claims.
"Denied. Next.....denied. Next......denied. Next......denied...…."
"Agent ABNAK, we notice you have a 0% acceptance rate for asylum claims". "Uh, yep."
Averageman
07-08-18, 14:55
This, from the above article just really saddened me;
“At least one Honduran interviewed by DHS officials reported that children are kidnapped or adopted then smuggled with their unrelated adult “family member” to the United States. This smuggling practice has bolstered an underground market for counterfeit birth certificates according to the report, which was prepared by the DHS Human Smuggling Cell. Once in the U.S., these children are vulnerable to labor or sex trafficking,” he continued.
When it became an instant "You're In" because you brought a child on this journey, it couldn't have taken long for the bad guys to figure this out. Somewhere along the line they began snatching kids and if you are a parent from Honduras, the likelihood of you ever being reunited with your child again is nonexistent.
That this practice was encouraged by the Obama Administration needs to be known.
There are few things that enrage me more than the left owning the false narrative on what is taking place.
This, from the above article just really saddened me;
“At least one Honduran interviewed by DHS officials reported that children are kidnapped or adopted then smuggled with their unrelated adult “family member” to the United States. This smuggling practice has bolstered an underground market for counterfeit birth certificates according to the report, which was prepared by the DHS Human Smuggling Cell. Once in the U.S., these children are vulnerable to labor or sex trafficking,” he continued.
When it became an instant "You're In" because you brought a child on this journey, it couldn't have taken long for the bad guys to figure this out. Somewhere along the line they began snatching kids and if you are a parent from Honduras, the likelihood of you ever being reunited with your child again is nonexistent.
That this practice was encouraged by the Obama Administration needs to be known.
There are few things that enrage me more than the left owning the false narrative on what is taking place.
All the more reason to try and return them to their legit parents in their home countries.
MountainRaven
07-08-18, 19:49
I would love to be one of the agents who decide asylum claims.
"Denied. Next.....denied. Next......denied. Next......denied...…."
"Agent ABNAK, we notice you have a 0% acceptance rate for asylum claims". "Uh, yep."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ML-f34bmGw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ML-f34bmGw
Funny. :rolleyes: U.S. = USSR. Uh huh.....
Of course we aren't talking about people showing up with visas or other legit paperwork. We're talking, in this thread, about undocumented/un-papered, needy people showing up who aren't our problem.
MountainRaven
07-08-18, 20:11
Funny. :rolleyes: U.S. = USSR. Uh huh.....
Of course we aren't talking about people showing up with visas or other legit paperwork. We're talking, in this thread, about undocumented/un-papered, needy people showing up who aren't our problem.
It's a skit. A joke. About a video game, set in a fictional country. In which someone says no to everybody attempting to enter. Your, "no," to everyone trying to enter reminded me of the skit.
(In the actual game, part of the player's job is to keep an eye out for persons forbidden from entering and persons attempting to enter with expired or forged (or insufficient or no) documents. Who the player lets in alters the progression of the game and the player loses if they allow too many people in illegally, IIRC.)
Averageman
07-08-18, 20:24
The amazing thing is someone with a criminal record, some good to high quality fake documents can show up already inside our Country and request asylum.
Oddly enough that person's ability to receive that asylum is only enhanced if they do a little kidnapping along the way to America.
We set this system up and didn't anticipate that criminals would exploit such a system?
Or were we in such a hurry to get some new Democrats we looked at this system as a "Two for One" deal?
Moose-Knuckle
07-10-18, 01:46
This, from the above article just really saddened me;
“At least one Honduran interviewed by DHS officials reported that children are kidnapped or adopted then smuggled with their unrelated adult “family member” to the United States. This smuggling practice has bolstered an underground market for counterfeit birth certificates according to the report, which was prepared by the DHS Human Smuggling Cell. Once in the U.S., these children are vulnerable to labor or sex trafficking,” he continued.
When it became an instant "You're In" because you brought a child on this journey, it couldn't have taken long for the bad guys to figure this out. Somewhere along the line they began snatching kids and if you are a parent from Honduras, the likelihood of you ever being reunited with your child again is nonexistent.
That this practice was encouraged by the Obama Administration needs to be known.
There are few things that enrage me more than the left owning the false narrative on what is taking place.
Check out this article about a Mexican Counter Custody Subject Matter Expert. Mexico is numero uno in the world for kidnappings. The reasons vary from simple ransom rackets, human trafficking, sex trafficking, organ harvesting, and occult cannibalism.
I remember the magazine covers of the Matamoros killings when I was a kid by the Narcosatanists. This shit has been going on down there since the Aztecs were cutting hearts out of people and it ain't going away anytime soon.
https://www.offgridweb.com/survival/survival-lessons-from-south-of-the-border/
Averageman
07-11-18, 11:58
Here we go;
So the Local PD and the Fed's show up at the neighbors and lets all get crazy because ICE!!!
http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/05/watch-neighbors-protest-ice-as-it-breaks-up-child-sex-trafficking-ring/
Assuming the agents were arresting illegal immigrants, people began protesting outside of the house.
Neighbor Hadar Cohen woke up to her roommate crying, saying she didn’t know what to do. The two of them and other housemates went outside to find agents on their street. Cohen, who was holding a “No person is illegal” sign, said that agents weren’t telling the neighbors what was going on.
“It’s been really tough because we have no idea what’s going on in there, and we that there’s a lot of injustices that have been happening,” Cohen said. “We care for our neighbors, and we care for immigration rights.”
The raid was part of an ongoing criminal investigation of a child sex trafficking in Oakland. Investigators were executing a federal search warrant, a fact which the Oakland Police Department later confirmed.
Protestors wrote in chalk on the ground “We love our neighbors” and “Oakland PD is a disgrace,” as the agents and police officers busted up the child prostitution ring.
The Oakland Police Department repeatedly confirmed that this was not an immigration raid, rather they were investigating child sex-trafficking in that house.
Despite this information, locals maintained that ICE and its actions were immoral. “ICE is not welcome in this country. H.S. is not welcome,” said neighbor Adley Penner. “I don’t support what they do. I think it is a blasphemy.”
Oakland has been a sanctuary city since 1986 and as a result, refuses to cooperate with ICE or DHS immigration raids. After reports that ICE was planning on conducting a series of raids, the city council voted unanimously to block city agencies from working with the department.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBo5xxq8OL8
So the underage kids next door are getting railed by perverts while Mom and Dad collect the money and the Hippies in the neighborhood all decide to protest the Cops from coming in and stopping it?
Okay, ummmm, yeah. I'm never going to California again, the people are crazy.
Those "neighbors/protestors" showed up with their pre made signs.
Moose-Knuckle
07-11-18, 15:56
It's not surprising in the least that the left protests the arrests of pedophiles and child sex traffickers.
The_War_Wagon
07-11-18, 17:08
Democraps don't care about ILLEGAL FOREIGN INVADER children this week. Supreme Court nomination to fight - the, "crisis of the week NOT going to waste," don'tcha know... :rolleyes:
Averageman
07-11-18, 17:20
This is exactly why you can unscrew some nicer pool cues.
Sometimes you need one for each hand in order to service as much dumbassery as possible in the shortest amount of time.
Call them red neck martial art weapon's if you like, but when that many targets need "whackamoled" sometimes you make sacrifices.
RetroRevolver77
07-11-18, 17:35
Here's some feel good videos of Police watering ICE protesters with pepper spray and then shooting them with pepper balls.
Lot of fun going on in these short clips.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kc7fJ_1531345755
Doc Safari
07-11-18, 17:41
Here's your laugh for the day:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-11/border-patrol-accuses-nyc-mayor-illegally-crossing-us-mexico-border
Border Patrol Accuses NYC Mayor Of Illegally Crossing US-Mexico Border
(snip)
As it turns out, desperate refugees, human smugglers and drug traffickers aren't the only people who illegally cross the US-Mexico Border.
To that list, we can add New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio and his security entourage. According to a letter sent to the Associated Press, de Blasio has been accused of violating both US and Mexican laws after he crossed the border on foot during a recent visit to an immigration detention center near El Paso, Texas. The mayor responded to the accusations on Wednesday, calling them "absolutely ridiculous."
De Blasio has been intensely critical of the Trump administration's immigration policies and has declared New York City a sanctuary for illegal immigrants.
After being denied entry to a holding facility for immigrant children separated from their parents, de Blasio then went to Mexico to get a better view of the facility with his security detail. The NYPD is in charge of de Blasio’s security.
While de Blasio's group was standing in the Rio Grande flood plain taking photos of the holding facility, a uniformed Border Patrol agent noticed the group and approached them. The agent asked if anyone from Border Patrol or public affairs had accompanied them to authorize their visit. A member of de Blasio's security detail said no, and when the agent asked how they got there, they gestured toward Mexico.
The agent then informed them that they’d crossed the border illegally and asked them to stay put while he informed his supervisor and took them to an official crossing for an inspection per federal law. But the group ignored the agent and walked back to their vehicles and proceeded to drive back into Mexico. They later re-entered by car through a port of entry about three hours later, the letter said.
In response to the letter, de Blasio declared the accusation "absolutely ridiculous" and said he had received approval to cross from a border patrol supervisor, according to the Daily Caller.
My take: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
RioGrandeGreen
07-11-18, 18:40
MMMM! I wonder if his NYPD security detail had their weapons on them. It would have been funny as hell if they would have been detained by Mexican cops. They would have known what "Mexican Justice" is.
Not knocking on NYPD, they had a job to do, but things can go sideways pretty quick on the border.
Here's some feel good videos of Police watering ICE protesters with pepper spray and then shooting them with pepper balls.
Lot of fun going on in these short clips.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=kc7fJ_1531345755
Aahh, it does me heart good to see bunch of leftists get a butt whoopin.
Doc Safari
07-16-18, 17:18
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/national-guard-deployment-led-to-more-than-10-000-additional-arrests-of-illegal-immigrants-says-cbp
The National Guard's deployment to the southwest border in mid-April has led to 10,805 "deportable alien arrests" of people who illegally entered the United States from Mexico, a U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokeswoman said Monday.
Because guardsmen are military personnel and not law enforcement officers, they cannot apprehend illegal immigrants. But CBP officers and Border Patrol agents apprehended thousands of people that guardsmen helped point out.
The National Guard's presence also helped lead to the interception of more than 3,300 others who were turned back before they crossed into the U.S., CBP press secretary Corry Schiermeyer said in an email to the Washington Examiner. The Guard's deployment has also led to an additional 11,686 pounds of marijuana being seized as a result of their work.
There are 1,601 National Guard troops at the border assisting with various surveillance, maintenance, and related operations. That number could tick up considerably if the 4,000 National Guard troops President Trump approved on April 4 are called on in a future request from CBP.
Troops are providing support from the air, surveillance backup, and assistance with infrastructure projects like vegetation clearing and road maintenance, not including border wall construction. Another task is to specifically free up agents to leave their desks and get back out to the field. The troops monitoring remote video surveillance systems have then been able to report sightings to a greater field of agents, and thus the number of apprehensions has increased, officials said.
The deployment is funded through the end of fiscal 2018, Sept. 30
My take: This is an invasion. It's time we started treating it as such.
Mr. Goodtimes
07-16-18, 18:27
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/national-guard-deployment-led-to-more-than-10-000-additional-arrests-of-illegal-immigrants-says-cbp
My take: This is an invasion. It's time we started treating it as such.
Not all that long ago we did. Anybody remember Pancho Villa?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Averageman
07-16-18, 18:53
MMMM! I wonder if his NYPD security detail had their weapons on them. It would have been funny as hell if they would have been detained by Mexican cops. They would have known what "Mexican Justice" is.
Not knocking on NYPD, they had a job to do, but things can go sideways pretty quick on the border.
That really could have turned very ugly or even in to a gunfight.
They likely don't know how close they came.
Not all that long ago we did. Anybody remember Pancho Villa?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wait a minute...... That is my line........
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/national-guard-deployment-led-to-more-than-10-000-additional-arrests-of-illegal-immigrants-says-cbp
My take: This is an invasion. It's time we started treating it as such.
The Mexican Army has fired on our Border Patrol to facilitate crossings. "Former" Mexican SF have conducted raids in US cities to hit rival gangs. It's been a war for a long time.
Averageman
07-16-18, 21:44
The Mexican Army has fired on our Border Patrol to facilitate crossings. "Former" Mexican SF have conducted raids in US cities to hit rival gangs. It's been a war for a long time.
This isn't fiction and has nothing to do with the movie, this is the real deal cartel assassin. his cover, he was a Mexican Cop and was trained by our DEA on smuggling.
http://extragoodshit.phlap.net/index.php/the-sicario-a-juarez-hit-man-speaks/#more-468616
Averageman
07-16-18, 22:04
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/national-guard-deployment-led-to-more-than-10-000-additional-arrests-of-illegal-immigrants-says-cbp
My take: This is an invasion. It's time we started treating it as such.
Definition of insurgency
plural insurgencies
1 : the quality or state of being insurgent; specifically : a condition of revolt against a government that is less than an organized revolution and that is not recognized as belligerency
Okay, so we see and hear what the MSM wants us to, and I think sometimes what the powers-that-be want us to. Heard on the radio this morning that some pwecious wittle children were reunited with their parents and then they all went to their "sponsors".
WHAT THE HELL IS A FREAKING "SPONSOR" AND WHY AREN'T THEY ALL BEING DEPORTED????
Okay, so we see and hear what the MSM wants us to, and I think sometimes what the powers-that-be want us to. Heard on the radio this morning that some pwecious wittle children were reunited with their parents and then they all went to their "sponsors".
WHAT THE HELL IS A FREAKING "SPONSOR" AND WHY AREN'T THEY ALL BEING DEPORTED????
It could be that the reunited ones went to parents who were seeking asylum and they were hooked up with sponsors to avoid having to burden the government system.
We have/had two pockets of Somali refugees, both in communities with meat packing plants. I believe they were sponsored by church groups.
Don't know about this situation, though.
Doc Safari
07-19-18, 11:49
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/07/18/cartel-violence-forces-u-s-govt-to-prohibit-employee-travel-to-downtown-juarez/
The United States Consulate General in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico has issued a security alert prohibiting U.S. Government employees from traveling into downtown Ciudad Juárez without advance permission for the next 30 days.
Breitbart Texas reports regularly on the escalation of cartel-related violence in the area known as the El Paso-Juárez Metropolitan Border area — to include three people who were recently shot near an El Paso-Juárez Metropolitan Border Area pedestrian bridge.
This security alert issued on July 13, 2018, goes into effect immediately and cites a marked increase in homicides throughout Ciudad Juárez. These include an increase in shootings in the highly frequented downtown area during daylight hours.
The security alert reads as follows:
U.S. government personnel are prohibited from traveling to downtown Ciudad Juárez without advance permission from the Regional Security Office for the next 30 days. The restriction covers both official and personal travel and includes the area west of Avenida de Las Americas. All approved official travel must be in an armored vehicle. The restriction will be reevaluated at the end of the 30-day period.
Actions to Take:
U.S. citizens should take this restriction into account when planning travel to Ciudad Juárez.
Be aware of your surroundings and monitor local media reports.
Contact the nearest U.S. Consulate or Embassy if you need assistance.
My take: If one were to interpret this as evidence things are getting worse, would this be called a "clue"?
Averageman
07-19-18, 14:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnNRncS4B8
So I'm wondering if this guy is still working for CBS?
It's funny to see and opinion change and all it took was someone to threaten him.
MountainRaven
07-19-18, 14:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnNRncS4B8
So I'm wondering if this guy is still working for CBS?
It's funny to see and opinion change and all it took was someone to threaten him.
https://www.cbspressexpress.com/cbs-news/shows/cbs-news/bios?id=david-begnaud
Averageman
07-19-18, 15:14
Having said all that he did, I'm surprised he is still employed by CBS.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-19-18, 17:02
So I'm wondering if this guy is still working for CBS?
It's funny to see and opinion change and all it took was someone to threaten him.
Wow, amazing reporting of actual facts and real happenings. First piece or journalism that I've seen from the border.
Averageman
07-21-18, 09:15
Complete State Department Warning.
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2018/07/new-us-state-dept-travel-warning.html
Please read the entire Travel Advisory.
Violent crime, such as homicide, kidnapping, carjacking, and robbery, is widespread.
The U.S. government has limited ability to provide emergency services to U.S. citizens in many areas of Mexico as U.S. government employees are prohibited from travel to these areas.
U.S. government employees are prohibited from intercity travel after dark in many areas of Mexico. U.S. government employees are also not permitted to drive from the U.S.-Mexico border to or from the interior parts of Mexico with the exception of daytime travel on Highway 15 between Nogales and Hermosillo.
DO NOT Travel to:
Colima State due to crime.
Guerrero State due to crime.
Michoacán State due to crime.
Sinaloa State due to crime.
Tamaulipas State due to crime.
To get a better idea, read the whole thing.
The State Department doesn't want you to go too many places in Mexico because it's just too dangerous.
When are people going to finally figure out that Mexico is basically a failed state. It meets every check box I can think of for a third world country and yet, because it is cheap to visit, people flock to the "tourist" areas. Never mind that you can't venture outside of the tourist areas or you could be killed or robbed, your drinks could be spiked at the resort leading to your stuff being stolen at a minimum and the violence is even starting to creep into places like Cancun and others.
Yes it's pretty, yes it's cheap, no it's not worth me getting killed by the cartels.
Averageman
07-21-18, 17:51
I don't want or need to go to Mexico again.
I have friends at Church that go often though so this concerns me a bit.
If we cannot control our borders we might need to control our neighbors.
I think the wall will make a difference, but Mexico needs to fix itself or face the certainty that if they don't, we will.
We can't have a Narco State on our Southern border that stuff spills over.
Moose-Knuckle
07-23-18, 14:18
It meets every check box I can think of for a third world country and yet, because it is cheap to visit, people flock to the "tourist" areas. Never mind that you can't venture outside of the tourist areas or you could be killed or robbed, your drinks could be spiked at the resort leading to your stuff being stolen at a minimum and the violence is even starting to creep into places like Cancun and others.
Organ harvesting is a thing and what I would be more concerned about with spiked drinks.
Well that and occult cannibalism.
Doc Safari
10-15-18, 11:44
https://www.breitbart.com/border/2018/10/15/border-patrol-agent-to-journalists-camp-by-the-river-and-see-how-safe-you-are/
A Border Patrol agent who serves in the nation’s busiest human smuggling sector says the unsecured border is not safe.
During a recent interview with Breitbart Border/Cartel Chronicles Editor-in-Chief Brandon Darby, Rio Grande Valley Sector Border Patrol Agent Chris Cabrera, in his capacity as vice-president of the National Border Patrol Council Local 3373, responded to a question about safety along the unsecured border areas in South Texas. “My response [to people who say the area is safe] is grab a tent and set up shop for a couple of days — see how safe you are,” Agent Cabrera said.
He then described a situation where a CBS News reporter expressed at how unsafe the border area was while he was observing an illegal crossing in July.
CBS News reporter David Begnaud traveled to Roma, Texas, in July to cover a story about Texas landowners getting notices about a proposed border wall, Breitbart Texas reported. While shooting a segment along the river, he was shocked to see a group of illegal immigrants making their way across in broad daylight a few hundred yards from a U.S. Customs and Border Protection port of entry. He was even more shocked when a man with a two-way radio approached them and told them to leave. Begnaud described being confronted by a man who he later called a “scout.” The “scout” is a person who likely works directly for the cartels that control all illegal crossings of humans and drugs across the Rio Grande River.
(Read the full article for more).
My take: Come to my ranch and watch people cross the desert through binoculars. Hear about rural homes that have been burglarized so many times the owners are either afraid to leave the house unattended or are thinking of selling out. Try not wanting to walk your own property after dark without some heavy duty firepower and bright lights to bear against the snap of a twig. Have a nice Sunday outing on the north forty wondering if today's the day you find a dead body or something. A splendid time is guaranteed for all.
Our southern border is starting to sound a bit like South Africa...
The_War_Wagon
10-15-18, 13:54
Our southern border is starting to sound a bit like South Africa...
It needs to sound more like South CAROLINA - Ft. Sumter. Ca. 1861. :mad:
It needs to sound more like South CAROLINA - Ft. Sumter. Ca. 1861. :mad:
You got that right!
I lived in McAllen, TX for several years and had friends that owned border property or worked all along the rural border. Some of them had crazy stories about things they had run into.
I lived in McAllen, TX for several years and had friends that owned border property or worked all along the rural border. Some of them had crazy stories about things they had run into.
Born & raised in the Rio Grande Valley...friends with several BP amigos, one which runs canine on the river. The current rush across at the moment is quite staggering. Many are now claiming asylum & simply not coming to their hearings.
I hunt on a 7000 acre place in Starr Co close to the river & we don't have many problems with illegals...my thinking is they are barely getting started north. My buds who hunt around the 60 mile check points have it way worse.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-16-18, 15:34
Born & raised in the Rio Grande Valley...friends with several BP amigos, one which runs canine on the river. The current rush across at the moment is quite staggering. Many are now claiming asylum & simply not coming to their hearings.
Not sure why but I read that as "runs cocaine on the river". I was thinking they may not want you divulging that info. Canine makes a lot more sense lol.
Born & raised in the Rio Grande Valley...friends with several BP amigos, one which runs canine on the river. The current rush across at the moment is quite staggering. Many are now claiming asylum & simply not coming to their hearings.
I hunt on a 7000 acre place in Starr Co close to the river & we don't have many problems with illegals...my thinking is they are barely getting started north. My buds who hunt around the 60 mile check points have it way worse.
The 60 mile checkpoints are no joke, been through the Falfurrias one many times. My wife was going through chemo at the time and she set off the detectors (while sitting in her car in line) there and the place went into a lockdown in a blink of an eye. Took an hour of explanations and phone calls to her doctor to get things straight.
Doc Safari
10-16-18, 15:57
The 60 mile checkpoints are no joke, been through the Falfurrias one many times. My wife was going through chemo at the time and she set off the detectors (while sitting in her car in line) there and the place went into a lockdown in a blink of an eye. Took an hour of explanations and phone calls to her doctor to get things straight.
More details on this please....How did she set off the detectors?
More details on this please....How did she set off the detectors?
She was taking low dose radiation pills for thyroid cancer. Apparently their sensors are sensitive enough to detect the radiation her body was emitting.
They have their gigometers & Flux Capacitor gadgets...I got pinged at the Fal checkpoint & two others around Hebbronville after a nuclear stress test. I had a letter from the Dr but was not let go until their meter number matched the type of medical gunk that was in my system that took several days to flush out.
You should see the new checkpoint being built at Fal now. I thought it was gonna be a landing strip for heavy aircraft they cleared out so much brush...I reckon they still got another year of construction. That checkpoint leads the nation in both drugs & illegal apprehension. I'm in the oil patch on the gas compression side & drive about 300-400 miles a day all over deep south TX & know the checkpoints all too well.
Doc Safari
03-18-19, 17:50
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2019/03/18/dhs-nielsen-border-is-near-system-wide-meltdown/
Border security is collapsing because the cartels and migrants are exploiting Congress’ refusal to close loopholes through the border, homeland secretary Kirstjen Nielsen said Monday morning.
“The situation at our Southern Border has gone from a crisis, to a national emergency, to a near system-wide meltdown,” Nielsen said at Auburn University’s Center for Cyber & Homeland Security. Her prepared speech said:
There is no more fundamental responsibility for a nation. And yet, the American people have been let down by our government again…and again. I want to cut through the politics to tell you loud and clear: there is NO “manufactured” crisis at our Southern Border. There is a real-life humanitarian and security catastrophe. Late last year, we were apprehending 50,000 – 60,000 migrants a month. Last month, we apprehended more than 75,000—the highest in over a decade. And today I can tell you that we are on track to interdict nearly 100,000 migrants this month …
I say this with the utmost sincerity and urgency: the system is breaking. And our communities, our law enforcement personnel, and the migrants themselves are paying the price.
Congress needs to fix the problem, she said:
Because of outdated laws, misguided court decisions, and a massive backlog of cases, we are usually forced to release these groups into the United States. And we have virtually no hope of removing them in the future, despite the fact that the vast majority who apply for asylum do not qualify for it.
…
Our laws aren’t keeping up with the migrant flows, and until they are fixed, the situation will only get worse and more heartbreaking. We need Congress to stop playing politics and do what’s right.
We need Congress to change the law to allow us to keep families together throughout the immigration process … to ensure the safe and prompt return of unaccompanied children to their home countries … and to reverse the court ruling that directs dangerous criminals to be released into our communities.
Overall, in 2019, the U.S. government will allow at least two million new foreign workers into the United States to compete for the starter jobs sought by the latest wave of four million U.S. graduates. The new migrants also undermine the 24 million other Americans and the roughly three million legal immigrants who have joined the workforce since 2014.
This federal policy of using legal and illegal migration to boost economic growth for investors shifts enormous wealth from young employees towards older investors by flooding the market with cheap white-collar graduates and blue-collar foreign labor.
This cheap labor economic policy forces Americans to compete even for low wage jobs, it widens wealth gaps, reduces high tech investment, increases state and local tax burdens, hurts kids’ schools and college education, pushes Americans away from high-tech careers, burden college graduates, and sidelines millions of marginalized Americans, including many who are now struggling with fentanyl addictions.
My take: We are witnessing the end of our country as we know it. Just like the Muslim invasion of western European countries has ruined classical Europe, this will ruin forever the United States of America as we know it.
They are reporting 40-50 percent of the numbers you quoted are crossing in the Rio Grande Valley sector...the narcos have the gig figured out. I stated this before but worth repeating: The cartels coordinate traffic crossings with the OTM's going directly to BP which tie up all available resources processing those looking for asylum. All the other thugs & drugs split the gap with very little interruption. We are being had & are making the cartels very wealthy at our own demise.
~Local news stated we set a one day record last Tuesday with 1500 apprehensions!! All on the three first counties at the mouth of the rio grand heading west. Cameron, Hidalgo & Starr.
~The RGV sector has apprehended immigrants from over 40 different countries since Jan 1st.
Currently a crisis nobody can deny at this point & suspect these facts will allow Trump to move forward with the emergency act if / when it hits SCOTUS. Sad part is the wall isn't going to fix the concern that you mention as it cannot be placed in the middle of the river & is going to require congress to change the current immigration laws. It's absurd BP can return Mexicans back the same day where all others qualify for asylum & that needs to changed asap or we are indeed doomed. Barriers will most certainly help with the other side of the thug / drug concern & glad to see we are getting attn on this aspect down here..
I'm way passed being spooked if the bleeding isn't stopped very soon...Not sure who decides where they all go, but can tell you they aren't staying parked down here waiting for their hearing. Honestly, if it wasn't news nobody here would know. We are merely the stepping stone to this national problem & suspect they are scattered all over the country??
MountainRaven
03-18-19, 20:09
They are reporting 40-50 percent of the numbers you quoted are crossing in the Rio Grande Valley sector...the narcos have the gig figured out. I stated this before but worth repeating: The cartels coordinate traffic crossings with the OTM's going directly to BP which tie up all available resources processing those looking for asylum. All the other thugs & drugs split the gap with very little interruption. We are being had & are making the cartels very wealthy at our own demise.
Americans will stop making the cartels rich when Americans stop buying what they're selling.
Americans will stop making the cartels rich when Americans stop buying what they're selling.
That's never going to happen, we should abolish the war on drugs and decriminalize that shit and cut the cartels legs off that way instead.
The WOD's is an absolute failure that has done nothing but make nasty drugs more prevalent and more accessible and make a ton of money for the .gov and the cartels.
Moose-Knuckle
03-19-19, 03:27
https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2019/03/18/dhs-nielsen-border-is-near-system-wide-meltdown/
My take: We are witnessing the end of our country as we know it. Just like the Muslim invasion of western European countries has ruined classical Europe, this will ruin forever the United States of America as we know it.
My dude, we ain't seen nothing yet.
All turns to dust in time, however Western Civilization is the first civilization whose collapse has been engineered and welcomed by many of it's inhabitants.
RioGrandeGreen
03-20-19, 01:37
El Paso Border Patrol Agents detain more than 400 migrants in five minutes
https://www.kvia.com/news/border/el-paso-border-patrol-agents-detain-more-than-400-migrants-in-five-minutes/1060792069
Dr. Bullseye
03-20-19, 11:25
Interesting article here;
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/19/illegal-immigration-debate-disaster/
When emotionalism meets scaremongering, it’s difficult to have a useful debate about anything. Yet for immigration, those seem to be the two choices.
The Trump administration has adopted a “zero tolerance” policy requiring law enforcement to prosecute illegal immigrants. Yes, the policy comports with the law. Yes, the Obama administration engaged in a similar policy on a smaller scale — and yes, the media covered it very differently.
The article goes on to lay the blame at the feet of all involved, however, it fails to explore the situation at the necessary depth for a complete understanding.
Doesn't anyone remember the POTUS making a very, very generous offer to the Democrats involving DACA?
Doesn't anyone remember he promised to fix this issue?
I'm at the point with this where I'm really unconcerned about locking up someones kids if it fixes this. If I decided to shoplift something and I brought a child along as an accomplice, I'm pretty sure we would be "separated" when I went to jail, so why should someone doing the same crime at an international border be treated any differently?
Crossing that border illegally, needs to be a Felony the very first time someone does it, not the second, third or fourth.
You feel bad about locking up illegal alien kids? Then deport them immediately. "Someone's kids" are themselves illegal aliens and as such criminals. When you shoplift, your kids are not criminals. Your "someone else's kids" mean enslavement for my children and grandchildren who are going to have to support these criminals all their lives on multiple levels. The USA is being invaded. We are at war. Stop whining about "someone else's kids" and think of your own.
That's never going to happen, we should abolish the war on drugs and decriminalize that shit and cut the cartels legs off that way instead.
The WOD's is an absolute failure that has done nothing but make nasty drugs more prevalent and more accessible and make a ton of money for the .gov and the cartels.
Yet another area, like anti 2nd Amendment initiatives, where there are claimed goals that differ dramatically from intended goals.
Doc Safari
03-20-19, 15:48
Detention centers are full. Border Patrol releasing migrants:
https://pilotonline.com/news/government/nation/article_b47a4ead-d1f4-541b-9167-c80121d65c04.html
Detention centers are full. Border Patrol releasing migrants:
https://pilotonline.com/news/government/nation/article_b47a4ead-d1f4-541b-9167-c80121d65c04.htmlDown a giant fun looking playground slide back into Messico?
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I have asked here several times, and Google shows no tangible results, but.....is this bullshit "two weeks" they can be held an actual part of the f****k-up asylum law (which needs to be drastically changed NOW) or is it some judge's decree? If it is some judge's decree then ignore it and let it go to the SCOTUS. Build tent camps in the desert, water to drink and MRE's to eat. No A/C, bare minimum of heat (like survival level) and their damn kids can languish right there with them. I don't care anymore. This catch-and-release shit has GOT to stop.
RioGrandeGreen
03-20-19, 21:41
A nice short read on this subject. It's on Amazon Kindle.
Unwavering: A Border Agent's Journey From Hunter to Hunted
by Dr. Jason Piccolo
https://www.amazon.com/Unwavering-Border-Agents-Journey-Hunter-ebook/dp/B07PG1ZLF7?_encoding=UTF8&redirect=true&ref_=ku_mi_rw_edp
And now Florida is considering issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Awesome.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQgdHbn5PhAhVChOAKHVJ6CrAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Fflorida-bill-would-allow-illegal-immigrants-to-get-drivers-licenses&psig=AOvVaw2AbhZW1qhR4HsyUXhU1sK_&ust=1553258167126666
Averageman
03-21-19, 07:54
As long as they vote and voting requires ID, what makes you think that showing that ID isn't going to allow them to vote in many blue or purple States and Counties?
The idea is to get as many in here as possible and wait for another Reagan like amnesty, "Poof" instant Democrats.
gunnerblue
03-21-19, 10:28
I have asked here several times, and Google shows no tangible results, but.....is this bullshit "two weeks" they can be held an actual part of the f****k-up asylum law (which needs to be drastically changed NOW) or is it some judge's decree? If it is some judge's decree then ignore it and let it go to the SCOTUS. Build tent camps in the desert, water to drink and MRE's to eat. No A/C, bare minimum of heat (like survival level) and their damn kids can languish right there with them. I don't care anymore. This catch-and-release shit has GOT to stop.
I’m not sure I understand your question. Anyone can present themselves at the border and claim asylum. Their case then goes to an asylum hearing...eventually. Right now I believe the courts are backlogged for years. In the meantime, asylum-seekers are released into the US with a court date on which to appear. President Trump’s new proposal is that instead of being released within the US, those claiming asylum wait in Mexico until their court date. From what I hear it’s off to a rocky start. I can’t imagine that Mexico has any duty or interest in housing non-Mexican citizens in US immigration proceedings.
I can’t imagine that Mexico has any duty or interest in housing non-Mexican citizens in US immigration proceedings.
This wouldnt be Mexicos problem if they enforced their own damn border.... too bad soo sad. They let them come through, they can care for them or they can be the ones blamed for mistreatment.
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gunnerblue
03-21-19, 11:23
The irony is that Mexico’s southern is very heavily defended and difficult to cross. These caravans are allowed to cross because Mexico doesnt want them to remain.
This wouldnt be Mexicos problem if they enforced their own damn border.... too bad soo sad. They let them come through, they can care for them or they can be the ones blamed for mistreatment.
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Exactly right. They should stay wherever they are until, and if, approved in the hearing. If Mexico wants to let them in on a transit visa then they have accepted the problem is theirs.
And now Florida is considering issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. Awesome.
One of our legislators is advancing such a bill:
Representative Ponka-We Victors introduced House Bill 2003 for safety reasons. She fears undocumented immigrants who don't have a license will drive without insurance.
"It's an issue that not only affects my community but all across Kansas. It's a state issue," Victors said. "And what we really want is our roads to be safe and we want to make sure everybody knows the rules of our roads. And that everybody is insured."
House Bill 2003 would require undocumented immigrants to pass a driving test and a vision test. They would also have to provide proof of insurance and their passport.
The bill says the state can't use this information to deport someone and the DMV cannot release their information without a court order.
Victors says she is pushing the bill to get a hearing. Republican Majority Blake Carpenter believes the bill won't pass.
The purity of principled outrage against illegals is diluted when you get hit by uninsured Juan, you kind of wish he had insurance, apparently this is an attempt to mitigate that.
Currently, you have to show proof of current insurance to get your vehicle tagged or renew your tag, so if they don't have insurance, they shouldn't be able to register the vehicle, but if they buy from someone who lets the tag go with the vehicle......
I’m not sure I understand your question. Anyone can present themselves at the border and claim asylum. Their case then goes to an asylum hearing...eventually. Right now I believe the courts are backlogged for years. In the meantime, asylum-seekers are released into the US with a court date on which to appear. President Trump’s new proposal is that instead of being released within the US, those claiming asylum wait in Mexico until their court date. From what I hear it’s off to a rocky start. I can’t imagine that Mexico has any duty or interest in housing non-Mexican citizens in US immigration proceedings.
And quite frankly, neither do we. They came from the Mexico side of the border, sounds like Mexico's problem. If they don't like it then lock their own borders down (but they don't, you know that right?).
If the asylum courts are backlogged for years, then they either stay in Mexico or stay in detention here for as long as it takes. How you can suggest, if you are indeed doing so, that they are somehow "entitled" to be released HERE and have free reign and run in OUR country (when they have no business being here in the first place) is beyond me. Live in a shitty tent camp in the hot/cold desert for years, I don't care. Or better yet, GO THE F**K BACK!!! To assume that because their sorry asses show up at our border with their bullshit claims of "asylum" ("My country is a shithole and it sucks living there" is NOT what asylum is about) that we are somehow responsible for them is ludicrous.
gunnerblue
03-21-19, 19:21
Don’t get me wrong, these aren’t things that I’m suggesting or in which I believe. These are just the facts on the ground.
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