View Full Version : Carbon on the side of my brass?
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 15:18
Hey guys, I am having an issue with my reloads. I am getting a ton of carbon fouling on the side of my brass wall, almost all the way to the case rim. It usually starts to devolope after a mag or two.
Never happens with factory ammo.
I've done everything I feel like, double checked sizing, length, and have got my loads so hot I'm scared to go hotter.
I've been using wolf gold brass, and various different components.
I've seen this in low charge pistol brass. In that example it's the mild charge not swelling the brass walls to the chamber.
For rifle, this is usually found when adding a suppressor. Are you chronoing the load? What's the powder?
Normally carbon on the outside of the case means low pressure and the neck of the case not sealing in the chamber.
What is your powder and loading info and can you post photos of the cases.
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 15:53
I get it on hotter loads too.
For example
25gr ramshot tac with a 69gr hpbt still gets powder on the side of the case.
25 gr of h335 with a 60gr ballistic tip, still gets carbon on the side of the case wall.
Im wondering if it's the wolf gold brass?
I've shot a lot of Wolf Gold .223, never had a soot prob. Your other loads look stout enough, so I don't think it's that.
If this is the only brass you've ever had this prob with...it's the brass, but why I don't know. Did you shoot the Wolf as a factory round and then reload it? Did it soot when it was a factory round?
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 16:23
I've shot a lot of Wolf Gold .223, never had a soot prob. Your other loads look stout enough, so I don't think it's that.
If this is the only brass you've ever had this prob with...it's the brass, but why I don't know. Did you shoot the Wolf as a factory round and then reload it? Did it soot when it was a factory round?
The factory rounds do not do that. I'm wondering if the brass is getting too hard or something. It doesn't seem to last very long either.
The factory rounds do not do that. I'm wondering if the brass is getting too hard or something. It doesn't seem to last very long either.
MMMMMMM. Work hardening does happen, but one firing is faster than I've ever seen. Usually what I've seen is the work hardening first causes case necks to crack. Even then I haven't seen an over abundance of soot.
This the only brass doing this?
It doesn't seem to last very long either.
In what way? Primer pockets get loose?
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 16:35
In what way? Primer pockets get loose?
Usually fails about 2mm above the case rim, will crack or become thin and looks like powder burnt through it if that makes sense. After a few loads I consider the brass trash.
I do size and trim every load because I am pretty anal about making sure my loads are safe.
Usually fails about 2mm above the case rim, will crack or become thin and looks like powder burnt through it if that makes sense. After a few loads I consider the brass trash.
I do size and trim every load because I am pretty anal about making sure my loads are safe.
You're getting case separation. I bet your sizing die is set too low. Do you have a case guage?
Wolf Brass might have thinner webs than other brass. So if you're bumping the shoulder too far back, it could be showing up on brass that's weakest in that area. Based on my experience, I expect 1 separation for every 20,000 rounds I load. So if you're seeing them regularly, there is a problem.
In .308, I killed many pieces of Lapua brass by sizing it back to SAAMI, instead of to the actual bolt gun. 223, however, works fine off of the case gauge
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 19:15
You're getting case separation. I bet your sizing die is set too low. Do you have a case guage?
Wolf Brass might have thinner webs than other brass. So if you're bumping the shoulder too far back, it could be showing up on brass that's weakest in that area. Based on my experience, I expect 1 separation for every 20,000 rounds I load. So if you're seeing them regularly, there is a problem.
In .308, I killed many pieces of Lapua brass by sizing it back to SAAMI, instead of to the actual bolt gun. 223, however, works fine off of the case gauge
That's the interesting thing though. I do have a case guage, and it is in spec. I even started sizing them at the very top end of the case guage, but that didn't fix the issue. When comparing my sized brass to factory rounds, my shoulders we're about identical, then I went further out to max thinking that was the issue, and still no dice. I'm thinking the next step might be trying different brass.
I feel uncomfortable sizing past Sammi spec for shoulder tolerance. I have noticed once the brass is fire formed the shoulder is a good bit past sammi spec. However since my shoulders are identical to factory ammo, I'm not sure what the problem is. I am thinking that maybe the batch of brass I'm using is too hard.
Interesting
If its too hard could that cause it?
I wonder if the Zn content is high, or if there is a metallic contaminate?
5.56 Bonded SP
06-19-18, 21:05
I'm not sure, I feel baffled. There isn't an issue when I use wolf gold, but when I reload the brass I have this issue. I don't feel safe with the shoulders any longer, or charges any hotter. I'm thinking I will have to try new brass. Which is a shame, I have thousands of spent wolf gold brass.
This only happens with wolf brass using a correctly adjusted resizing die? This same resizing die make appropriate dimension resized brass with a different head stamp?
Whiskey&beer
06-20-18, 00:45
Are you using a headspace measuring tool like the Hornady to see how far you’re knocking the shoulders back from fired brass out of the gun? That’s the only way to see how much your sizing. Case gauges suck. I used one that was so out of whack that to make a .308 case fit perfect or as much as you can feel, it was bumping the shoulders back over .008 from fired brass. When I would bump the shoulders back .003 from fired brass, if I put that in that gauge it wouldn’t come close to fitting in there. I threw that gauge away along with a Dillon that was so sloppy you could put fired brass in there and shake it. I set the shoulders back .003 for my semi autos, just in case that comes up.
Case gauges don't suck... unless you get one that's out of spec. I've never heard of that happening though. And a case gauge is easily checked against various factory loads to see if it checks out.
The reason the once fired brass isn't problematic is that it's the initial fire forming to POSSIBLY an excessive head spaced gun. The obvious next step is to try a little sample of different brass. I'm guessing the result will be the same if you're saying once fired brass is way over max in the gauge.
I reload WOLF Gold brass, but I don't track it due to having too much .223 brass. I've not noticed anything unusual about the Wolf brass that I've shot.
You could try sizing a piece of brass to just over max on the guage, and see if it chambers. If it does, there's a problem. Years back, I got a little sloppy on my die setting and had a batch of .223 just a smidge over max. It was choking my AR15 like crazy.
You could try sizing a piece of brass to just over max on the guage, and see if it chambers. If it does, there's a problem.
I was going to suggest this as well. If you're sizing to spec and seeing separations after a couple firings, there's a possibility you have excessive headspace in the chamber.
I was going to suggest this as well. If you're sizing to spec and seeing separations after a couple firings, there's a possibility you have excessive headspace in the chamber.
This is where having the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge is good to have because you can measure "fired" cases.
Below a Colt Field gauge at 1.4736
https://i.imgur.com/F81aB6g.jpg
Below the Colt Field gauge in a adjusted/caliberated Hornady gauge.
https://i.imgur.com/kkoU6og.jpg
Below a fired case in the Hornady gauge and then my die is adjusted for .003 shoulder bump.
https://i.imgur.com/OJqNmQH.jpg
NOTE, the SAAMI cartridge and chamber drawings have headspace listed as min and max with .010 in between. The GO and NO-GO gauges are for setting up a new rifle or barrel changes,
Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:
1. GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
2. NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
3. FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.
Bottom line, you have .007 beyond the NO-GO gauge for usage wear on the bolt lugs and lug recesses.
What make full length die are you using?
What is the diameter of your fired cases at three points vs a resized case?
I have a Lee .223 full length die that will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS small base die. And this same die will push the case shoulder back .009 shorter than my GO gauge.
Out of curiosity... What barrel and bolt are you running?
5.56 Bonded SP
06-20-18, 19:06
Out of curiosity... What barrel and bolt are you running?
Happens with multiple guns chambered in 5.56, I don't have any chambered in 223.
I'm using rcbs dies.
Sounds like it is time to call RCBS
Happens with multiple guns chambered in 5.56, I don't have any chambered in 223.
I'm using rcbs dies.
Interesting. Can you feel different amounts of force needed when you run the handle during resizing? I mean... I can feel it when I get a range pick up and I'm bumping the shoulder back more than normal.
I'm wondering if one of the guns is causing the issue and it's showing up in the others. Firing brass in an excess headspace chamber starts the failure. The separation can occur a few firings later in any gun.
5.56 Bonded SP
06-24-18, 19:05
I have tried using Hornady and rcbs sizing dies. Same problem with both. So I assume it's not the sizing die itself causing the issue. My reloads measure the same headspace as factory ammo.
I can't feel a difference when resizing brass from Different guns, it doesn't take much force at all with my press.
I'm wondering if maybe it really is just the brass. I am going to try some brass that has been annealed and see if that fixes the problem.
I'm also considering annealing the wolf brass as well since I have so much of it.
Annealing might help a little. I mean... it'll soften the shoulder allowing the brass to expand easier.
5.56 Bonded SP
06-25-18, 15:27
Annealing might help a little. I mean... it'll soften the shoulder allowing the brass to expand easier.
I'm going to test about 100 annealed federal cases with the same loads. I will report back when I have a chance to shoot them.
That should be interesting. Most Federal brass has a fairly thin web. If the Federal outlasts the Wolf by a significant amount, that would point to the Wolf brass at the problem.
masenomics
09-10-18, 11:03
OP what did you find out with the annealed brass? I'm really curious about this because I have the same issue with all my reloads as well. Like you I have a mixed assortment of brass that I reload and a few ARs chambered in 5.56 that I shoot it through. I use a weak load of 4064 though and I've never crimped a single reload either but idk if that has anything to do with it.
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