View Full Version : 3 Noveske recievers scrapped this week- Help please.
I'm not talking bad about Noveske by any means. Nor am I trying to voice an opinion of them or there reputation. I own several Noveskes and have never had a problem.
I purchased 3 Noveske stripped Gen 1 upper receivers for a couple of builds. This one particular build has cost me 2 receivers so far.
I am installing a Knights Armament 10.75" URX 4 MLOK hand guard using the shims provided and once I apply torque, the pivot pin lug snaps. This one snapped at 38lbs. the other snapped in the same place at 46lbs. and I was almost at TDC.
I am using a Wheeler aluminum upper receiver vise block in a 4" vise. No cheater bar, I can achieve TDC at approx. 50lbs of torque which falls in the recommended range.
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Any recommendations? Any thoughts? Should I try I different vice block?
Is this the vise block you used? > https://www.btibrands.com/product/delta-series-ar-upper-pic-rail-vise-block/
The pin type vise blocks are not good for installing or removing barrel nuts... They are only good for installing sights and maybe the forward assist and that's about it.
People breaking their uppers with the pin type vise blocks is quite common.
This will do the job. > https://www.btibrands.com/product/delta-series-ar-15-upper-vise-block-clamp/
This will do the job too. https://www.2uniquellc.com/product-page/m16-barreling-spud
Sorry, can't help, but I feel your pain. I don't build but do own a Gen 1 complete carbine that was built when John was still alive.
I'm not talking bad about Noveske by any means. Nor am I trying to voice an opinion of them or there reputation. I own several Noveskes and have never had a problem.
It is what it is. I have two complete Gen 1 Noveske N4 rifles that I got back in 2009 and 2011. I recently got a stripped Gen 1 lower that was a piece of crap...I stripped the lower parts off of one of the old N4s to see if the parts kit I was using was junk and none of those parts would fit right either. It was so out of spec I couldn't even get a mil spec trigger guard on it. Ended up breaking an ear off and scrapped the project.
The anodizing on it looked great though.
I’ve never installed that particular rail before, but would a reaction rod be a better option perhaps? Brownells and Geissele both offer them. Best of luck!
This is a little less expensive than the Brownell's or Geissele offerings:
https://www.botach.com/kley-zion-barrel-spline-socket-rod-for-ar15-m4-ar10-sr25-upper-receivers/
I bought one from Botach several years ago, before they were labeled kley-zion and it has worked fine throughout numerous builds.
The 'clamshell' types also work fine.
Now you know the design limitations of the lugs on the upper. Sorry it cost you a couple uppers.
3rd times the charm:
I have now destroyed all 3 of my Noveske uppers: This last and final one snapped both lugs completely off at 28lbs and I was at TDC. Somethings going on. Is this a bad batch of uppers? I know they have Noveskes mark on them, but who makes these?Made in China? These are just plain junk, 1 upper is an accident, all 3 at less than 50lbs of torque? and I just had to destroy my brand new day old URX4 to remove from upper to salvage barrel.
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directimpingement
06-20-18, 22:37
I use a Geissele reaction rod anymore, because I had the same thing happen to me on a cheap AR-22 upper using one of the blocks, that hold the upper by pins. They are by far a much better option IMO.
Wow.
I've installed/removed barrels probably 20 times with a DPMS upper receiver block before getting a Reaction Rod.
Either something's very wrong with the Wheeler vice block, or your receivers were definitely defective.
Wow.
I've installed/removed barrels probably 20 times with a DPMS upper receiver block before getting a Reaction Rod.
Either something's very wrong with the Wheeler vice block, or your receivers were definitely defective.
I think they are defective! I noticed that the barrels were super snug, like almost a press fit. I figured it was the cerakote, but no problem right? Then all 3 uppers break at the exact place. Bad batch.
If you decide to try a 4th time, I'll loan you my Reaction Rod to take the vice out of the equation.
directimpingement
06-20-18, 23:01
I think they are defective! I noticed that the barrels were super snug, like almost a press fit. I figured it was the cerakote, but no problem right? Then all 3 uppers break at the exact place. Bad batch.
Just to throw this out there, I have several uppers that have a tight tolerance where the barrel extension goes in, so I don't know that, that's necessarily an "issue" IMO. Lugs breaking at 28 ft lbs, would make me wonder though.
Hammer_Man
06-20-18, 23:04
I've used Noveske receivers on at least 4 builds without issue, one as recently as last week. I suspect their forged receivers are made by Mega, which is not junk by any means.
You can bet your sweet ass than I just made my gun dealer roll his ass out of bed and open up for me to buy an off the shelf Noveske upper. Luckily this was not a stripped upper, but came with a Noveske marked forward assist and a dust cover. I am in full Mythbusters mode tonight.
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This will be my third attempt tonight, and 4th this week. No ones going to bed until this is complete!
jackblack73
06-20-18, 23:22
No offense, but if you break three receivers the only one I would blame is you. I don't believe one broke at only 28 ft lbs either. Something is wrong with your torque wrench. I also can't believe that after breaking one you didn't use a different block. It's pretty obvious looking at that block that it will put a lot of stress on the lugs. You should use either a clam shell type or a reaction rod. Let someone else more mechanically inclined work on your guns.
No offense, but if you break three receivers the only one I would blame is you. I don't believe one broke at only 28 ft lbs either. Something is wrong with your torque wrench. I also can't believe that after breaking one you didn't use a different block. It's pretty obvious looking at that block that it will put a lot of stress on the lugs. You should use either a clam shell type or a reaction rod. Let someone else more mechanically inclined work on your guns.
Im just going to act like you didn't say that. I forgive you brother!
Just to get a quick reference, I took my Colt and my calipers and did some measuring. This is the "keyhole" upper that Colt and KAC as well as others use.
This is the new Noveske upper I just got tonight
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This is a Colt upper
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almost a 2mm difference in material
This is the broke Noveske Upper
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This is a Colt upper
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almost 1.7mm of difference.
It could possibly be the URX4 rail, it doesn't require a barrel nut, the rail itself is the barrel nut and you have to use shims to get it to align to TDC. I just thought of that.
3rd times the charm:
I have now destroyed all 3 of my Noveske uppers: This last and final one snapped both lugs completely off at 28lbs and I was at TDC. Somethings going on. Is this a bad batch of uppers? I know they have Noveskes mark on them, but who makes these?Made in China? These are just plain junk, 1 upper is an accident, all 3 at less than 50lbs of torque? and I just had to destroy my brand new day old URX4 to remove from upper to salvage barrel.
I am curious as to why you would contiue to use the block that attaches by the pins now that you know it is not the correct fixture for the job... ?
Also, check your torque wrench.
elephantrider
06-21-18, 00:05
How are you clamping the receiver/vise block in the vise? Are you just clamping the base of the vise block, and the receiver sitting on the block via the pins? Or, are you rotating the receiver and block 90 degrees w/ respect to the vise, and clamping the block/receiver as one unit, horizontally in the vise? I'd recommend the latter if you have the jaw width on your vise. I've done this with a rubber vise jaw pad protecting the receiver top rail. Some company, or another sells a hard delrin cover that fits over the picatinny rail for this method.
Those Noveske uppers may well be total shite (I've had my bout with Noveske specs in the past, never again), or it could be a combination of factors, like any great disaster. Just keep in mind Einstein's definition of insanity before you go any farther.
I am curious as to why you would contiue to use the block that attaches by the pins now that you know it is not the correct fixture for the job... ?
I have built over 50 uppers using the same vise block without a problem. But for the uppers to break the lugs or crack at the lugs at such low torque seemed odd to me. At first, I just figured it was a random fluke. I wasn't even mad, threw it away and got another one. When it broke, I thought I was doing something wrong.
I watched a KAC video on youtube on how to install the URX4 and I was doing it right. Used the shims as the directions suggested and everything was good until I put some muscle into it. 3rd one broke and I thought this may be a quality issue. I used calipers on my KAC and Colt as reference and compared those dimensions to the new noveske and the 2 that are broke and I realized that though it may not be a quality issue, but the uppers I broke simply did not have the same dimensions as far as wall thickness as the other uppers that I have.
They simply don't have enough meat on them. But at the same time, I am installing a rail that acts as a barrel nut and requires a special clamp to align to TDC. That clamp may put too much stress on the lugs and the entire receiver as a whole. I have a plastic clam shell, that I used to disassemble. . I ordered a reaction rod from Geiselle tonight.
Excuse my ignorance as I've never installed a URX rail, but why couldn't/didn't you use the clam shell block for the install?
ETA: The tight fit between the receiver and barrel is desirable. Use a heat gun/hair dryer to warm up the receiver and the barrel will press in by hand.
Excuse my ignorance as I've never installed a URX rail, but why couldn't/didn't you use the clam shell block for the install?
ETA: The tight fit between the receiver and barrel is desirable. Use a heat gun/hair dryer to warm up the receiver and the barrel will press in by hand.
The URX4 is the barrel nut and I didn't use my clam shell because its made of plastic and warps under force. I have a noveske barrel, that's why I chose a noveske upper. I have a hard time mixing certain manufactures with other manufactures. But the barrel was not just a tight fit, it to a point where I had to use my rubber mallet to get it on all the way and that was after applying heat to the upper.
And this is another thing but Noveske is really good about returning items that are broke or wrong. I am not going to return these but I have returned stuff to them in the past and there are no questions asked. On the other hand I purchased (3) URX4 rails from KAC and I wanted to exchange 1 and they claimed that it had been installed and was used when it was still in the original packaging. They told me there QA department said it had damage to the threads and could not be re-sold. That's frustrating because I never opened the package, I wanted to exchange my 10" for a 10.75". I ended up buying a new rail from my dealer for his price from RSR which was $171.92. So this one build is like 2 months in the works because I have had to wait on parts to come in and exchange parts that were wrong. Im getting to the point where I just want this done. I wasn't wanting to destroy $500 worth of parts but I had figured the first one was fluke, second one was my fault and the third proved to me that it may have been a material issue.
Maybe the URX4 and the Noveske Gen 1 upper receiver are not compatible with each other. I have a MK18 MOD 1 build on a Noveske Gen 1 upper and I had no issues at all. Easy build. I have used Noveske Gen 1 uppers for many builds before so this was new for me.
elephantrider
06-21-18, 01:31
I watched a KAC video on youtube on how to install the URX4 and I was doing it right.
IIRC the KAC URX4 install video shows a 'reaction rod' type fixture used in the barrel extension.
IIRC the KAC URX4 install video shows a 'reaction rod' type fixture used in the barrel extension.
Yes it does but once I added the proper shims, my rail was about 11:30-11:45 position at hand tight which would only require about 30lbs or torque to get my rail to TDC. I figured a vise block was suitable for 30-35lbs of torque without problems. I thought a reaction rod was for bigger jobs like 50-80lbs or torque. Either way, I ordered a reaction rod earlier and kind of scared to try this again tonight. Im too tired and I think I broke my hand.
Here's a novel thought. Stop at receiver number 1 and then contact Noveske first to address the issue. Once you have contacted them per the site rules, we can revisit this disaster.
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