View Full Version : 9mm sizing issue?
So today I had a round that wouldn't chamber, I would guess it was protruding .1". Cleared it and carried on no issues. When I got home, pulled the bullet, resized the case, loaded the same bullet, same result. I measured the bullet with the calipers, 0.3545". Took at different case, loaded the same bullet which chambered no issue. When all was said and done, after a bit of testing, I identified two cases, PPU and CBC, that had the same issue. No problems with Win, Speer, Federal etc. So what gives? Thicker walled brass? And if so, can I adjust my sizing die to aid with this?
Loading was done on a Dillon 550 and Dillon dies. Gun was a Shield.
Thanks.
Two things you never see pistol shooter do.
1. Trim their cases
2. Anneal their cases.
When you crimp the longer cases the case mouth can bulge below the crimp and prevent it from chambering.
Lee makes a factory crimp die with a carbide ring in its base and this is a cheat for people who do not trim their pistol cases.
If the longer cases bulge below the crimp the Lee FCD carbide ring will size the bulge and the case will chamber.
Lee also makes undersize dies that size the case .002 to .003 smaller in diameter than a standard die.
The undersized dies help with older well used cases with more spring back after sizing and thinner walled cases and mixed range pickup brass.
I bought 500 once fired military WCC 9mm cases that had thin case walls and the undersized die cured the bullet grip problem.
To add some more detail I didn't think of, I'm loading 147gr JHP's and do not apply any crimp. The case is belled just slightly enough to allow the bullet to sit for seating. This same set up has loaded thousands of 115gr FMJ's.
To add some more detail I didn't think of, I'm loading 147gr JHP's and do not apply any crimp. The case is belled just slightly enough to allow the bullet to sit for seating. This same set up has loaded thousands of 115gr FMJ's.
That’s your problem right there! You have to remove the bell after seating the bullet! Either by crimping with the seating die or in a separate step with a lee factory crimp die or equivalent. You don’t want the bell!
That’s your problem right there! You have to remove the bell after seating the bullet! Either by crimping with the seating die or in a separate step with a lee factory crimp die or equivalent. You don’t want the bell!
That's it.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Below no taper crimp with the case mouth larger in diameter due to case mouth flare.
https://i.imgur.com/pRVen2j.jpg
Below a taper crimp and the case mouth streamlined for easy chambering.
https://i.imgur.com/MfcwIQB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PqmgVOa.jpg
I’ve had 9mm CBC cases that had an internal “shelf” (presume it was designed to prevent bullet setback) that made it impossible to properly seat the bullets I was using.
Look inside the case and see if there is a step, or noticeable thickening at the web.
I sort through 9mm brass before loading now and pitch the CBC and a lot of other “off brand” brass.
Life’s too short to screw around. Range brass is cheap.
Some great info in this thread, thanks for everyone's input. Need to digest but will quickly say my brass is about 1/3 my own and 2/3 range pickup. I may have to go through and toss the CBC brass amongst them. Interestingly, the PPU chambered fine in a Sig P239.
In the case of my CBC experience I can only assume it was originally loaded with-and designed for a 115 gr FMJ. (It was range PU brass)
I was loading 147 GD bullets. By trying to seat close to SAAMI spec for COAL, the cases internal shelf/thickened web made it impossible to stuff the longer bullet shank into the case without swelling the base of the case.
In the case of my CBC experience I can only assume it was originally loaded with-and designed for a 115 gr FMJ. (It was range PU brass)
I was loading 147 GD bullets. By trying to seat close to SAAMI spec for COAL, the cases internal shelf/thickened web made it impossible to stuff the longer bullet shank into the case without swelling the base of the case.That's interesting. I loaded to 1.125 which is the factory spec for Federal HST. The 147's I'm loading are pulled HST. Some of the other rounds I loaded for test were in the 1.15-1.155 range with no issues.
Yep, makes sense.
The longer rds must have positioned the base of bullet above the shelf/thicker web.
I lengthen leades in my 1911 9’s so I can load long; 1.140”+ (with 124 JHPs-range ammo).
I have less “issues” with handloads and they feed more reliably in that platform.
This may not be directly relevant, but I use a four-die set on both revolver and semi-auto loads.
1. Size and decap.
2. Expand / flare and prime.
3. Seat
4. Crimp
This means the seating and crimping are two separate operations. I believe this minimizes any possible inconsistencies.
Use a very slight taper crimp on semi-auto rounds. Just enough to remove the bell from the expander stage die. A taper crimp does not substitute for case tension on the bullet.
I figure a picture might help. The two on the left won't chamber, the one on the right will.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180627/a9f73e29d525f509f047b16339507487.jpg
I went back and pulled a round with CBC brass that wouldn't chamber, double checked the sizing die for correct sizing, set up the 4th station crimp die and then reloaded it. Same result. Then in further testing, got the same result with a piece of Tula brass I found. Interesting thing is, running over the CBC brass with a caliper at various points seems to produce the same measurements as a piece of Win brass that was good. Gotta say I am stumped. Only thing left for me to do is try those same CBC cases with a 115gr bullet and see if the issue is replicated.
Yep, makes sense.
The longer rds must have positioned the base of bullet above the shelf/thicker web.
I lengthen leades in my 1911 9’s so I can load long; 1.140”+ (with 124 JHPs-range ammo).
I have less “issues” with handloads and they feed more reliably in that platform.
Tried a CBC case with a 1.15" OAL and no dice.
I dunno all of my 147 loads look like a coke bottle and they all chamber check fine in my CZ’s. I also use nothing but range pickup brass.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A couple of observations-
First; from your most recent photo it appears there is still some flair at the case mouth from the belling/powder station. Assuming I am seeing this accurately I would add additional Taper crimp to remove any flair/belling at case mouth. Do you seat and crimp in separate stations/with separate dies?
Second; I have no experience with S&W's M&P guns. It is possible they may have short, or leades too close to chamber mouth for what you're loading.
(CZ's as example are known to have (or used to have) this issue. The few CZ's I've loaded for required a COAL of 1.110 to 1.125" (JHPs) to chamber.)
I would eliminate variables, or problems, one at a time.
Are all three cartridges above same brass?
Are they all precisely same length?
If you apply additional Taper crimp to the two that won't chamber, will they chamber after additional crimp is applied?
Have, or can you "drop check" loaded ammo in barrel to determine if it's a short leade problem?
If you pull bullets from cartridge that won't chamber and load a 115 gr. FMJ in that brass, will it chamber now ( to eliminate the long shank/thick web theory)?
What you are describing ("issues wise") still causes me to believe your issue(s) are thick webbed brass using a long shank 147 gr. bullet, Taper Crimp, or a short leade.
You DID mention at beginning of post that you have loaded thousands of 115 FMJ's with no issues. This points to "long shank 147's and thick web brass".
Guess the short answer is; if you can't figure it out- stick with what you know will work (brass wise), and put the rest of the problem brass in the scrap can.
Unless I'm missing something, your crimp isn't enough. Try the Lee Factory Crimp Die and I'll bet your issue will be at least partly if not totally resolved. Like several others here, I've loaded thousands of rounds with range pickup brass, all different kinds of bullets and fired in multiple pistols and never had the issue.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned with "this or that piece of brass chambers and this one won't." Your loading operation should be solid enough that it shouldn't matter what brass you use.
Unless I'm missing something, your crimp isn't enough. Try the Lee Factory Crimp Die and I'll bet your issue will be at least partly if not totally resolved. Like several others here, I've loaded thousands of rounds with range pickup brass, all different kinds of bullets and fired in multiple pistols and never had the issue.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned with "this or that piece of brass chambers and this one won't." Your loading operation should be solid enough that it shouldn't matter what brass you use.You would think but the evidence suggests otherwise. Are you saying the Dillon crimp die is no good? What is your experience with it?
Nothing wrong with Dillons pistol dies, crimp or otherwise.
I’ve used them for 30 yrs.
When I shot competitively I loaded substantially over 250K rds (.38 Super and .45 ACP) on a 1050.
After competitive shooting I’ve used 550 and 650’s with no issues.
I’ll add that I’ve loaded over 30K 9mm in the last 3 years. Only ammo related issues have been with a few backward primers (operator error with primer PU tube) and the fore mentioned CBC brass.
You would think but the evidence suggests otherwise. Are you saying the Dillon crimp die is no good? What is your experience with it?All I'm saying is the Lee FCD has a ring at the bottom which ensures a cartridge is below factory chamber spec so you have reliable feeding. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer's crimping die having this.
You can read about other's experience using crimp dies other than the FCD and you'll see some mixed reviews with reports of cartridges failing the plunk test. Rarely if ever have I seen this complain with the FCD.
But like somebody else mentioned, it doesn't look like you have enough crimp adjustment with your die. Maybe adjust your crimp die down some more and see what happens.
Have you tried using a case gauge?
I had the exact same problem you had just a few months ago. I was getting bulge, coke bottle shapes with 147gr. Never had that happen loading 124gr. I loaded up a bunch of 147 plated RN, coke bottle shape but still chambered in the case gauge. Not pretty looking but worked. Then I started up with some 147 HST pulls, and about half would not drop into the case gauge or would get stuck.
I think the problem is 3 fold.
1. Dillon 9mm sizing die really tapers the the brass from case head to mouth. 9mm case is supposed to have some taper.
2. 147 gr bullets, heavier and longer so the are deeper into the case.
3. Certain brass. Some headstamps of brass will have thicker walls and the deeper seating of the 147's contact these thicker parts of the brass. Normally not a problem, cause most of these cases used to hold 124's and 115's.
Things I did to fix it. I switched over to Lee sizing die. Brass with headstamps associated to ATK worked ie FC, Blazer, Speer. I was able to get a hold of a bunch of brass all Speer headstamp. I get it on the TOS EE. I am assuming this guy picked it up from a police range. The 147 HST's seat to the same as factory COAL, no bulges what so ever. The amount of force to size 9mm brass Lee vs Dillon is ridiculously more with the Dillon.
Hope this helps. Google Dillon 9mm die and bulge or coke bottle, others have come across this.
Thanks viszla, more confirmation of what I'm thinking is the issue. At this point I'm going to try a little more crimp but I think the brass type is the real issue. I may also try an even longer length at 1.65" just to satisfy my curiosity. If none of this works, looks like I will sorting brass to load these JHP's.
shadowrider
06-28-18, 00:37
I figure a picture might help. The two on the left won't chamber, the one on the right will.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180627/a9f73e29d525f509f047b16339507487.jpg
I went back and pulled a round with CBC brass that wouldn't chamber, double checked the sizing die for correct sizing, set up the 4th station crimp die and then reloaded it. Same result. Then in further testing, got the same result with a piece of Tula brass I found. Interesting thing is, running over the CBC brass with a caliper at various points seems to produce the same measurements as a piece of Win brass that was good. Gotta say I am stumped. Only thing left for me to do is try those same CBC cases with a 115gr bullet and see if the issue is replicated.
Tried a CBC case with a 1.15" OAL and no dice.
You are getting a bulge in the case behind the bullet. It appears that you are over crimping and you can even see it engaging the bullet itself. Either that or you are seating too deep and driving the bullet into the case taper which will bulge the case every time. Reset your seating die by backing off the seating stem by a lot. Then reset the die body itself by screwing it down on a sized case until you just feel it engage the case mouth. Then back it off a 1/4 to 1/3 turn and lock it down. Then reset your seating stem for your OAL. Crimp in a separate operation. You will need to get rid of the bell. I've loaded thousands of CBC and PPU which are thicker than most others even with coated lead bullets which are .356" not had problems. Unless I didn't get that bell gone...
As I previously suggested; pull the bullets (your 147's) on the cartridges/BRASS that won't chamber.
Try loading 115's or 124's at SAAMI spec for COAL.
If the cartridge(s) chamber; your 147's are too long for that particular brass, at the COAL you are using- OR your taper crimp is likely insufficient.
I'm voting for the former.
One more idea:
I make sure that the seating plug fits the bullet I'm using. For instance, in .45 ACP, when you buy a set of dies, they give you one round nose plug, and one semi-wadcutter plug.
The round nose plug is generic and fits 230 grain RNL and jacketed bullets okay.
The SWC plug works fine on 200 grain lead target bullets.
But for a while I was loading 230 grain flat points, conical flat points shaped like 180 grainers in .40. Neither of those plugs would drive the bullet straight. If you send a bullet of yours to RCBS, for a few bucks they'll make a seater plug that fits your bullet exactly. If you're using anything but SWC or round nose, might be worth a try to eliminate one more possible problem.
The amount of force to size 9mm brass Lee vs Dillon is ridiculously more with the Dillon.
Hope this helps. Google Dillon 9mm die and bulge or coke bottle, others have come across this.
I’m getting ready to set up a new press so getting new dies and going to try the Lee dies. Everything I have read in other places confirms this. Also that brass fired in Glock’s produce a bulge that adds to this. I pick up range brass so high likelihood of getting some Glock fired.
Now, there are variations in the thickness of case walls in various manufacturers' brass. If it's only a problem with one brand of brass, you may have to avoid that brass.
I have a problem with Hornady .45 ACP brass. Tight primer pockets. Hornady is good ammo and good brass, no question about it; but with Winchester primers, it's a bit too tight for comfort.
So I sort them out of range pickups and they go to the scrap can.
You may have something like that going on here.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.