View Full Version : Large gun safe in apartment
boombotz401
06-27-18, 03:57
Anyone have a large safe in an apartment?
I recently purchased a liberty USA 30 thinking heavier is better with room to grow however @ 545 lbs empty I’m highly concerned it could damage the floor after a extended time
I’m on the first floor but it’s not a concrete slab.
I’m considering returning for either of these 2 models
Champion M21 @ 490lbs
Liberty centurion 24 @ 375lbs
Quality is of high importance without concerns of damage, I do have cameras around my home that alert me of any motion in the home
I do not want a cheap stack on 10lb cabinet
Suggestions? Previous experience?
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Are you concerned with damaging the flooring or the joists and subfloor?
Keep the safe you have. Put down a ground plate if you are worried about the finished floor. Anchor safe to wall. If weight is a concern, don't worry about it. A properly filled refrigerator will be as heavy.
BuzzinSATX
06-27-18, 06:09
Are you concerned with damaging the flooring or the joists and subfloor?
Keep the safe you have. Put down a ground plate if you are worried about the finished floor. Anchor safe to wall. If weight is a concern, don't worry about it. A properly filled refrigerator will be as heavy.
I agree with this^^^*^^. Ground plate or even a few 2*6 boards will help better distribute the weight if its really a concern. But if your structure and framing are in good shape, shouldn’t be an issue.
Take care,
I could be wrong, but from what ive seen, if its not bolten down, it might as well be a gun locker from a break-in standpoint.
Lots of good videos about attacking the sides and top with heavy picks. Tip the safe over and chop away. Bolting down the safe and putting up barriers like installing safe inside closet where it is difficult to get at thinner sides and top is A MUST.
The key is to know where the supports for your joists are. Placing the safe near an exterior wall that you know is the end bearing for the joist will help limit moment and deflection on the joist. It will increase shear but you should be okay. Dug Fir is pretty good with compression across the grain. If you place the safe at the midspan on a joist, yeah, no bueno.
boombotz401
06-27-18, 09:33
I am not able to see the joists underneath but I’m told there’s a ton of bracing, that is what has me thinking
I would prefer it in the closet which is ideal as there’s a 38” slot in the back and the safe is 36” making it pretty hard to pry however that takes me farther into the house further from outside walls
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I am not able to see the joists underneath but I’m told there’s a ton of bracing, that is what has me thinking
I would prefer it in the closet which is ideal as there’s a 38” slot in the back and the safe is 36” making it pretty hard to pry however that takes me farther into the house further from outside walls
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The bracing is only there to prevent the joists from rotating throughout their span. They do not act in helping the joist bear any additional load, they just allow the joist to take designed load because if it rotates, it fails long before the design load is reached. Are they common lumber or TJI's? Just as an FYI, in residential living areas, the floors are designed for 10psf dead load and 40psf live load. Now, obviously its not as simple as it sounds because a 300lb dude standing on one joist with only his feet as the bearing surface does not go through the floor, but it should give you a rough idea. As I said, the closest you can get the safe to a bearing point, the better. Without knowing the span and the size of the member, there isn't much more that I can suggest.
RetroRevolver77
06-27-18, 10:32
I'll never buy a large safe again. Get a Zanoti so you can take it apart and move it yourself.
So, I went through this a few years ago and can speak to it fairly well.
The weight of the safe itself doesn't actually matter; what matters is how the weight is spread out over its footprint. In other words, how many pounds per square foot is the safe exerting on the floor below it?
Calculate the filled safe's weight, and divide that by the surface area of the bottom of the safe. That's your weight dispersion.
Now, call the local building codes office and tell them that you're installing something heavy - like a water heater - and ask them what the codes specify for your city/town. Sometimes, you can even get them to tell you the specifics for your actual building (if it's an apartment, it's likely publicly available). It will be a pounds per square foot value.
There is a max weight the entire floor can handle and there's a max lbs/sq ft value each square foot of your floor can handle. As long as you're at or under those values, you're fine. If you're above, you will need floor supports or joist supports.
Honestly, ~600lbs over 4 square feet or more is less than what the average human being exerts when they stand on your floor (seriously). Unless you have sagging floors or have a few thousand pounds of other gear in the same room, you're likely ok. From my research, most residential first floors can easily handle safes up to 1000lbs without reinforcement.
boombotz401
06-27-18, 12:21
If I’m doing this right 6.25 is the sq 540lb empty
That puts me @ 86.4 psf empty
However, just about any safe no matter how small is over that weight
My tv, dresser etc so the psf is confusing
The smaller liberty centurion @ 375lbs is 4.28sqf putting me @ 87.6 psf
At 170lbs lighter it’s still the same issue?
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FromMyColdDeadHand
06-27-18, 12:44
Safes are empty air, and the guns will be less dense than the walls. So, given the same wall thickness, the bigger (oddly heavier) will have a lower #/sqft than a smaller (lighter) safe. Depending how many gold bars you put in it.
boombotz401
06-27-18, 12:56
Correct, The lower in weight and smaller footprint the more concentration so the psf stays same
So I guess my question is at what weight do I not worry if the psf remains the same
Surely 375 has to be less stress than 540?
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I'll never buy a large safe again. Get a Zanoti so you can take it apart and move it yourself.
This x1000. Moving a large safe is a complete ass ache. Plus, it's more discrete to just move pieces.
Having the safe delivery company roll up and spend an hour and a half in the middle of the day cramming your shiny new mega-safe into your apartment with all your shit-bird neighbors watching isn't the best for OPSEC.
Also, get an insurance policy to go along with your safe...
Correct, The lower in weight and smaller footprint the more concentration so the psf stays same
So I guess my question is at what weight do I not worry if the psf remains the same
Surely 375 has to be less stress than 540?
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You also have to remember that 40#/sf is calculated so that the entire floor can hold that amount without exceeding a pre-determined amount of deflection ie: a 20x20 room can hold 16,000# on it and not exceed the amount of deflection in the code. Therefore, a reasonable point load over two joists that exceeds that weight rating could be perfectly safe.
Is there any way you can access the space under your floor to inspect it?
The bracing is only there to prevent the joists from rotating throughout their span. They do not act in helping the joist bear any additional load, they just allow the joist to take designed load because if it rotates, it fails long before the design load is reached. Are they common lumber or TJI's? Just as an FYI, in residential living areas, the floors are designed for 10psf dead load and 40psf live load. Now, obviously its not as simple as it sounds because a 300lb dude standing on one joist with only his feet as the bearing surface does not go through the floor, but it should give you a rough idea. As I said, the closest you can get the safe to a bearing point, the better. Without knowing the span and the size of the member, there isn't much more that I can suggest.
I had a safe approx 800lbs in a closet that was in a corner and outer wall. I could go into the basement and see where it sat. 10+ years, no issues at all. When I finally moved, looked at it again to see if there'd been any sagging, etc. Put a level to it, nadda. Still bolted that bad boy down and recommend people do regardless of the weight. Two guys and a hand truck can easy remove an 800lb safe. I tell people, if they can get in that way (and they did...) why does anyone think they cant get out that way?! Safes taken is almost always an inside job, so unless it's a legit commercial grade Tl-30 monster that takes a team of guys and hydraulics lifters to get in, hide the safe is my advice.
I had a safe approx 800lbs in a closet that was in a corner and outer wall. I could go into the basement and see where it sat. 10+ years, no issues at all. When I finally moved, looked at it again to see if there'd been any sagging, etc. Put a level to it, nadda. Still bolted that bad boy down and recommend people do regardless of the weight. Two guys and a hand truck can easy remove an 800lb safe. I tell people, if they can get in that way (and they did...) why does anyone think they cant get out that way?! Safes taken is almost always an inside job, so unless it's a legit commercial grade Tl-30 monster that takes a team of guys and hydraulics lifters to get in, hide the safe is my advice.
I have gotten safes into closets that you can't maneuver a handtruck into using sheets of plywood a large prybar and a dozen hardwood dowels. In fact, I moved a 1200# 60" wide safe this way with myself, a 6 y.o. and a 7 y.o shuttling the dowels. Took all of 15 minutes to go 40'.
So, I went through this a few years ago and can speak to it fairly well.
The weight of the safe itself doesn't actually matter; what matters is how the weight is spread out over its footprint. In other words, how many pounds per square foot is the safe exerting on the floor below it?
Calculate the filled safe's weight, and divide that by the surface area of the bottom of the safe. That's your weight dispersion.
Now, call the local building codes office and tell them that you're installing something heavy - like a water heater - and ask them what the codes specify for your city/town. Sometimes, you can even get them to tell you the specifics for your actual building (if it's an apartment, it's likely publicly available). It will be a pounds per square foot value.
There is a max weight the entire floor can handle and there's a max lbs/sq ft value each square foot of your floor can handle. As long as you're at or under those values, you're fine. If you're above, you will need floor supports or joist supports.
Honestly, ~600lbs over 4 square feet or more is less than what the average human being exerts when they stand on your floor (seriously). Unless you have sagging floors or have a few thousand pounds of other gear in the same room, you're likely ok. From my research, most residential first floors can easily handle safes up to 1000lbs without reinforcement.
As stated earlier: Residential floors are designed for 10psf live load and 40 psf dead load in living areas, 10/30 in sleeping areas, and 10/20 in attics with limited storage [2015 IBC Table 1607.1 and 2015 IRC Section R502.3.1 and R502.3.2] That is the code, that is all the code official will be able to tell you. What the floor can handle is based on the span and depth of the joist and the point load's location across the span. A 24" x 24" safe (4SF) will at best be resting on two joists, and worst case; one. That is not to say the floor won't handle a safe. The same floor is designed to handle a bath tub which could be as much as 640lbs of water alone, but it is spread over twice the area. Again, the key to be safe is to place the gun safe next to where the joist below bears. Placing it mid-span is not a good idea. Will your floor fall down? No. Could it sag? Yes.
I had a safe approx 800lbs in a closet that was in a corner and outer wall. I could go into the basement and see where it sat. 10+ years, no issues at all. When I finally moved, looked at it again to see if there'd been any sagging, etc. Put a level to it, nadda. Still bolted that bad boy down and recommend people do regardless of the weight. Two guys and a hand truck can easy remove an 800lb safe. I tell people, if they can get in that way (and they did...) why does anyone think they cant get out that way?! Safes taken is almost always an inside job, so unless it's a legit commercial grade Tl-30 monster that takes a team of guys and hydraulics lifters to get in, hide the safe is my advice.
That's what I'm saying, place it close to a bearing wall and you will be fine.
I have gotten safes into closets that you can't maneuver a handtruck into using sheets of plywood a large prybar and a dozen hardwood dowels. In fact, I moved a 1200# 60" wide safe this way with myself, a 6 y.o. and a 7 y.o shuttling the dowels. Took all of 15 minutes to go 40'.
Hence dat rule: bolt it down!
Build a 2x6 platform that extends at least 6" to the sides and front. Carpet it for a really nice look. Will also protect your stuff in the event of flooding from water heaters that die and things like that.
I could be wrong, but from what ive seen, if its not bolten down, it might as well be a gun locker from a break-in standpoint.
Depends on the weight. I doubt 1 or even 2 thieves can carry a 500+lb safe. That's a pretty big safe. With contents, it'll be 600-700 easy. I doubt anyone would be able to haul that off without some serious equipment and a few guys.
A lighter safe, maybe.
Exiledviking
06-28-18, 01:15
This might be a good option:
https://www.sturdysafe.com/pages/mountable-floor-plate-for-gun-safe
Depends on the weight. I doubt 1 or even 2 thieves can carry a 500+lb safe. That's a pretty big safe. With contents, it'll be 600-700 easy. I doubt anyone would be able to haul that off without some serious equipment and a few guys.
A lighter safe, maybe.
You don't want anyone to be able to move it around, find the weak part and have room to work in it with tools. This is why people love to put them in closets, it makes using prybars a pain in the ass and this is why people want to bolt to the floor or back wall to prevent safes from being turned around.
But even on a stage, you can still anchor to the floor, in fact with some 6x4s you can anchor through some solid blocks within the stage and then you can still anchor to the back wall. So not only have you distributed weight on a platform you have elevated the safe 6 inches off the deck in case of flooding and you can still lock into the floor and rear wall.
Depends on the weight. I doubt 1 or even 2 thieves can carry a 500+lb safe. That's a pretty big safe. With contents, it'll be 600-700 easy. I doubt anyone would be able to haul that off without some serious equipment and a few guys.
A lighter safe, maybe.
The problem is tipping it. One you lay it down, it only takes1-2 minutes to get inside ith a couple prybars.
Depends on the weight. I doubt 1 or even 2 thieves can carry a 500+lb safe. That's a pretty big safe. With contents, it'll be 600-700 easy. I doubt anyone would be able to haul that off without some serious equipment and a few guys.
A lighter safe, maybe.
Famous last words of many a safe owner I can assure you.
Whiskey_Bravo
06-28-18, 09:09
Depends on the weight. I doubt 1 or even 2 thieves can carry a 500+lb safe. That's a pretty big safe. With contents, it'll be 600-700 easy. I doubt anyone would be able to haul that off without some serious equipment and a few guys.
A lighter safe, maybe.
My safe is 500+ pounds(don't remember the exact weight). I moved it with minimal help from my last house to this one. I just needed help getting it tipped onto the hand truck. I wheeled it out of the house and used the bed of the truck to lay it on it's back. The bed/tailgate acted as a tipping point and I was able to slide it into the bed fairly easily. No equipment other than a harbor freight tools cheap hand truck/dolly. Getting it out of the truck and into the new house was the exact same process.
Again, if one or two guys from the safe company can get in into your house with a dolly anybody can get it out the same way. Especially if they don't care about damaging it or your home.
I live in a ground floor apartment and have a ~700lb Liberty safe in the laundry room.....with the water heater and central air. The floor is a concrete slab and is covered in vinyl. I contemplated putting it in the bed room but the closet wasn’t deep enough and I wanted it to be somewhat concealable. Laundry room has a door so it fit the bill. Obviously I don’t have a washer/dryer which, actually would be nice but I like that I can close the door and not have the safe in the open. The laundry room is now pretty much a gun room with out a reinforced door. I reload in the laundry room as well....Lol.
boombotz401
06-29-18, 18:18
Underneath me is a garage, with a concrete foundation to my floor, though as far as I can see it’s not a slab across
Laundry room is for laundry unfortunately lol
I’ll either build a wider base to spread the load or drop to a 24to hide it better
Unfortunately the 24 is a centurion and I really didn’t want to downgrade from the USA..the store doesn’t stock the USA 24
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Is this for theft or fire protection?
For anti theft maybe buy a cheap safe and place it conspicuously filled with crap guns and Monopoly money
Add a cheap iPhone onto your plan and hide it under the safe connectted to an outside charger
Installed with find my iPhone and track if it ever gets taken
Build some camouflaged gun cubbies for your good stuff
Is this for theft or fire protection?
For anti theft maybe buy a cheap safe and place it conspicuously filled with crap guns and Monopoly money
Add a cheap iPhone onto your plan and hide it under the safe connectted to an outside charger
Installed with find my iPhone and track if it ever gets taken
Build some camouflaged gun cubbies for your good stuff
Not going to be hard to shake down an apartment and find the real safe. In a full size family house you might get away with that.
You don't want anyone to be able to move it around, find the weak part and have room to work in it with tools. This is why people love to put them in closets, it makes using prybars a pain in the ass and this is why people want to bolt to the floor or back wall to prevent safes from being turned around.
But even on a stage, you can still anchor to the floor, in fact with some 6x4s you can anchor through some solid blocks within the stage and then you can still anchor to the back wall. So not only have you distributed weight on a platform you have elevated the safe 6 inches off the deck in case of flooding and you can still lock into the floor and rear wall.
Yes of course, it should be bolted down.
What I meant was that it would be hard for one person to carry the entire safe unless they had equipment. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Also, if a safe can be pry'ed open with prybars, is it a bad safe? I would imagine a reputable/durable safe from a good manufacturer should not be able to be opened with just prybars whether its sitting down or standing up.
The problem is tipping it. One you lay it down, it only takes1-2 minutes to get inside ith a couple prybars.
Are you including the expensive name-brand safes? just curious because I don't own one of those high-end safes.
boombotz401
06-30-18, 14:47
Thoughts on the liberty centurion being pry resistant?
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I need a second safe and was thinking about a Zanotti but saw these: https://youtu.be/CkT8VBBTYeQ
It makes sense to me. Have any of you used one?
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I need a second safe and was thinking about a Zanotti but saw these: https://youtu.be/CkT8VBBTYeQ
It makes sense to me. Have any of you used one?
He's incorrect on a number of fronts, such as fire ratings, etc. Quality UL rated boxes have impressive fire ratings and don't use crappy board between layers. Cheap stuff, which are in fact RSCs, yes. If the goal is to prevent kids and snatch and grab thieves, then that's probably as good as any and easy to move set up. A quality box, which is not cheap, will be a PITA to get into, modern tools or not. Safe thread I started here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518
Per usual, doing some research on what the differences are is the key, and just like ARs, they may look the same, but are not the same....
Cheap RSC, and a basic grinder, and it's open easy enough, which again, why bolting down and placing them in locations they can't get to the sides and back is a must. It's surprising to me people often not willing to pay what they did for a single gun they own on a legit box. Hence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9vWa-C44I
Also, if a safe can be pry'ed open with prybars, is it a bad safe? I would imagine a reputable/durable safe from a good manufacturer should not be able to be opened with just prybars whether its sitting down or standing up.
I meant more along the lines of not having the room to pry it away from anchoring bolts.
boombotz401
06-30-18, 17:50
I’ve decided to run back the USA and pickup the 24 centurion and bolt it to a wall stud
I will also build a base wider than the wall bolted on the bottom so the safe cannot be removed from the room
Does anyone have any reasons the centurion is a bad deal? Some say it’s a very weak box but I wonder if it’s from those suggesting to buy a 5,000 Fort Knox
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He's incorrect on a number of fronts, such as fire ratings, etc. Quality UL rated boxes have impressive fire ratings and don't use crappy board between layers. Cheap stuff, which are in fact RSCs, yes. If the goal is to prevent kids and snatch and grab thieves, then that's probably as good as any and easy to move set up. A quality box, which is not cheap, will be a PITA to get into, modern tools or not. Safe thread I started here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518
Per usual, doing some research on what the differences are is the key, and just like ARs, they may look the same, but are not the same....
Cheap RSC, and a basic grinder, and it's open easy enough, which again, why bolting down and placing them in locations they can't get to the sides and back is a must. It's surprising to me people often not willing to pay what they did for a single gun they own on a legit box. Hence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9vWa-C44I
The second video is a better video. I’m looking to get one of those.
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I’ve decided to run back the USA and pickup the 24 centurion and bolt it to a wall stud
I will also build a base wider than the wall bolted on the bottom so the safe cannot be removed from the room
Does anyone have any reasons the centurion is a bad deal? Some say it’s a very weak box but I wonder if it’s from those suggesting to buy a 5,000 Fort Knox
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Link supplied above gives details. It's a basic RSC, not a safe. Simply depends on what you're expecting from it.
boombotz401
06-30-18, 18:31
The secure it video had some valid points...I’m going to purchase the liberty safealert and it’s already covered by WiFi cameras I can view anytime via iPhone app
I think the centurion it is, was really caught up in the whole 12 vs 14 ga pry test thing for awhile
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The second video is a better video. I’m looking to get one of those.
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A new company that's making a gun "safe" that would be difficult to get into with modern tools, similar to an Amsec BF series RSC (my preference in terms of value to security) is:
https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/product/true-gun-safes/
For about the cost of one high end AR, you have legit security that would be very time consuming (and time is all your buying with any safe...) to get into.
A new company that's making a gun "safe" that would be difficult to get into with modern tools, similar to an Amsec BF series RSC (my preference in terms of value to security) is:
https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/product/true-gun-safes/
For about the cost of one high end AR, you have legit security that would be very time consuming (and time is all your buying with any safe...) to get into.
Looks like it’s probably TL15 equivalent, but I don’t see a UL rating. It’s likely also too heavy for an apartment. Frankly, for the price one can easily find a reconditioned composite TL15. Or better yet spend a bit more and get a TL30, or even better yet a TL30X6.
Looks like it’s probably TL15 equivalent, but I don’t see a UL rating. It’s likely also too heavy for an apartment. Frankly, for the price one can easily find a reconditioned composite TL15. Or better yet spend a bit more and get a TL30, or even better yet a TL30X6.
I also could not find a UL rating, but I doubt it's up to a TL15 equivalent. Appears much closer to say an Amsec BF series. Agreed, a reconditioned composite UL rated TL15 would also be an excellent choice. I often forget about going the used route with safes.
boombotz401
07-01-18, 10:39
I think the one he’s referring to is the ultralight weighing 90lbs not the “true safe”
Fire protection is a must
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Depending on how big is the apartment, I still think it's better to have a cheap decoy safe in an obvious location and then build some discreet / disguised fire proof storage elsewhere.
He's incorrect on a number of fronts, such as fire ratings, etc. Quality UL rated boxes have impressive fire ratings and don't use crappy board between layers. Cheap stuff, which are in fact RSCs, yes. If the goal is to prevent kids and snatch and grab thieves, then that's probably as good as any and easy to move set up. A quality box, which is not cheap, will be a PITA to get into, modern tools or not. Safe thread I started here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518
Per usual, doing some research on what the differences are is the key, and just like ARs, they may look the same, but are not the same....
Cheap RSC, and a basic grinder, and it's open easy enough, which again, why bolting down and placing them in locations they can't get to the sides and back is a must. It's surprising to me people often not willing to pay what they did for a single gun they own on a legit box. Hence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9vWa-C44I
The safe in that video has 14-gauge steel. The old Sentry safes at Costco and Sams Club had thicker steel than that. While he somewhat has a point, he completely defeats it by using steel that thin. Literally, there are some filing cabinets with thicker steel than that.
The minimum thickness of steel you really want in a safe is 7 gauge - that's nearly 2.5x the thickness of steel shown in that video and it can't be folded down by hand like that. Even a 10-gauge safe (the absolute minimum according to most RSC specialists) is twice as thick as the safe he shows himself cutting into in that video.
The point he's trying to make - that most RSC's are junk - is a decent point, except he doesn't bother using one that anyone who knows anything about RSCs would use. Instead, he picks the crappiest of the crappiest RSC as a baseline for all RSCs and makes it seem like his cheap containers are on par with RSCs - they're not. It's completely self-serving.
I'd like to see a video of him cutting into a 7 gauge Sturdy safe or Ft. Knox safe, then contrast that video to his puny containers. You can cut into any safe given the tools and time, but his video is completely misleading.
boombotz401
07-01-18, 12:03
The weight of a 7ga while preferred just isn’t practical for some people
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I'd like to see a video of him cutting into a 7 gauge Sturdy safe or Ft. Knox safe, then contrast that video to his puny containers. You can cut into any safe given the tools and time, but his video is completely misleading.
It's intended to be as he has a competing product to sell. Only legit point he does make is, your basic entry level RSC is easy to get into if you have access to some basic modern tools. That's not a safe, not even a quality RSC, such as an Amsec BF series, which would not be easy to get into using those tools.
I also could not find a UL rating, but I doubt it's up to a TL15 equivalent. Appears much closer to say an Amsec BF series. Agreed, a reconditioned composite UL rated TL15 would also be an excellent choice. I often forget about going the used route with safes.
High pressure concrete within steel sounds TL15’ish. That said, I do not trust RSCs or non-UL rated safes. A composite TL15 is the absolute minimum IF one has a dwelling that can accommodate. TL safes are heavy and very costly to move.
Reconditioned TL safes from a reputable vendor are the way to go. Saves you thousands of dollars and a TL rated safe is real security. Empire Safe out of NYC is fantastic to deal with.
High pressure concrete within steel sounds TL15’ish. That said, I do not trust RSCs or non-UL rated safes. A composite TL15 is the absolute minimum IF one has a dwelling that can accommodate. TL safes are heavy and very costly to move.
Reconditioned TL safes from a reputable vendor are the way to go. Saves you thousands of dollars and a TL rated safe is real security. Empire Safe out of NYC is fantastic to deal with.
That's exactly what the Amsec BF series is, and uses thicker steel than that company, and still UL rated as an RSC. A really well made and designed RSC is better than some companies "safes." Hence why I feel the Amsec FB the best value going. Their actual TL15s are beasts, but that's why they're a commercial grade company used by jewelers, etc.
I reconditioned TL15 is a solid idea. Next time I'm in the market, that's what I will look for,
That's exactly what the Amsec BF series is, and uses thicker steel than that company, and still UL rated as an RSC. A really well made and designed RSC is better than some companies "safes." Hence why I feel the Amsec FB the best value going. Their actual TL15s are beasts, but that's why they're a commercial grade company used by jewelers, etc.
I reconditioned TL15 is a solid idea. Next time I'm in the market, that's what I will look for,
Interesting, I was not aware of the BF series. AMSEC makes great stuff. I prefer TL30x6 and it’s far less costly to buy reconditioned from the likes of Empire Safe or similar. But I will keep the AMSEC BF in mind should I need something lighter.
That's exactly what the Amsec BF series is, and uses thicker steel than that company, and still UL rated as an RSC. A really well made and designed RSC is better than some companies "safes." Hence why I feel the Amsec FB the best value going. Their actual TL15s are beasts, but that's why they're a commercial grade company used by jewelers, etc.
I reconditioned TL15 is a solid idea. Next time I'm in the market, that's what I will look for,
The AmSec BF series doesn't use actual high-pressure concrete. I forget the exact term in their marketing, but it's a mixture similar to concrete and uses some actual concrete to create it, but it has none of the actual structural integrity. It adds weight (mostly from the moisture locked inside of the mixture), but that's it. Basically, their "concrete" is their fire-retardant material and it adds very little strength (it can be picked away using a screwdriver or similar tool). This is how AmSec avoids the fireboard/drywall that other safes has, yet maintains the same (or better) fire ratings: their "concrete" releases moisture as it heats and therefore has to be much weaker than actual concrete. The dealer sample cutaways that AmSec sends to show what's in their safes isn't actually what's in the safe, it's visually representative only.
I looked long and hard at the BF series and almost went with one. I spoke with one of the most reputable people in the same industry before making a decision) and they confirmed the above. In fact, a few years ago, there are/were some lawsuits around the BF series because the inner lining had become compromised for some owners, which allows moisture from the concrete mixture into the main compartment of the safe, which caused severe rusting and damage to the contents of their safes. AmSec's stance was "it's a concrete mixture, we never said it was concrete or that it couldn't cause damage if compromised."
I had my mind set on an AmSec BF until I found that out.
The AmSec BF series doesn't use actual high-pressure concrete. I forget the exact term in their marketing, but it's a mixture similar to concrete and uses some actual concrete to create it, but it has none of the actual structural integrity. It adds weight (mostly from the moisture locked inside of the mixture), but that's it. Basically, their "concrete" is their fire-retardant material and it adds very little strength (it can be picked away using a screwdriver or similar tool). This is how AmSec avoids the fireboard/drywall that other safes has, yet maintains the same (or better) fire ratings: their "concrete" releases moisture as it heats and therefore has to be much weaker than actual concrete. The dealer sample cutaways that AmSec sends to show what's in their safes isn't actually what's in the safe, it's visually representative only.
I looked long and hard at the BF series and almost went with one. I spoke with one of the most reputable people in the same industry before making a decision) and they confirmed the above. In fact, a few years ago, there are/were some lawsuits around the BF series because the inner lining had become compromised for some owners, which allows moisture from the concrete mixture into the main compartment of the safe, which caused severe rusting and damage to the contents of their safes. AmSec's stance was "it's a concrete mixture, we never said it was concrete or that it couldn't cause damage if compromised."
I had my mind set on an AmSec BF until I found that out.
I knew it was not concrete but a proprietary product. It is supposed to slow use of cutting tools and improve fire rating. Not aware of lawsuits. Regardless, it's considered and UL listed as an RSC, and as as RSCs go, best bang for the $ I have found. It's not a safe, but a high end RSC, one that will likely defeat most people within the typical time frames. One should not compare it to safes, but other SRCs, so will be easier to get into than a safe, harder to get into than other RSCs. Again, just depends on what people wanna spend and what they want to protect. Best way to use a BF series is to bolt it down someplace (a closet) they have no access anything but the door, as that's got half inch plate on it. At that point, your in excellent security that would take a lot of time and tools to open. I'd take a BF over ant of the other RCS on the market. I'd still prefer a legit safe if $ and weight allowed.
BTW, Amsec also offers an upgrade with a 4g steal inner liner. So that's the 11g outer, the quasi concrete you'd at least need to take time to remove, and then a 4g inner liner to deal with.
He's incorrect on a number of fronts, such as fire ratings, etc. Quality UL rated boxes have impressive fire ratings and don't use crappy board between layers. Cheap stuff, which are in fact RSCs, yes. If the goal is to prevent kids and snatch and grab thieves, then that's probably as good as any and easy to move set up. A quality box, which is not cheap, will be a PITA to get into, modern tools or not. Safe thread I started here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?51518
Per usual, doing some research on what the differences are is the key, and just like ARs, they may look the same, but are not the same....
Cheap RSC, and a basic grinder, and it's open easy enough, which again, why bolting down and placing them in locations they can't get to the sides and back is a must. It's surprising to me people often not willing to pay what they did for a single gun they own on a legit box. Hence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-9vWa-C44I
Thanks for the vid. It shows that some low-end large/heavy safes are still not fully theft-proof. You'd have to spend well above $1k for a good secure safe.
The weight of a 7ga while preferred just isn’t practical for some people
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Exactly, not to mention price.
That one high-end safe is $3700. I doubt a casual shooter who lives in an apartment with say 5-10guns have the $ or inclination to buy one of those.
Space/tight quarters is another issue, esp if a person lives in a 2nd or 3rd floor apartment.
but if you can make it work or have the dough, high-end safes are ideal.
The problem is tipping it. One you lay it down, it only takes1-2 minutes to get inside ith a couple prybars.
Famous last words of many a safe owner I can assure you.
Really?
https://youtu.be/8yHIkXXR3HM
3 guys couldn't pry open this unbolted Liberty safe
Really?
https://youtu.be/8yHIkXXR3HM
3 guys couldn't pry open this unbolted Liberty safe
Yes, really. That's a promo piece obviously. There's a specific method used to pry a door with two people working together, they're not using it...(1) The "Presidential" is not a safe, but an RSC.(2) Per vid I posted, simple grinder with proper cutting head can make short work of them if they are not bolted down and they can access the sides/rear. It's also common for them to simply take the safe and open later at their leisure. If two guys with a dolly can get one in, not as hard as people think to get one out, especially of they don't care what damage they do. Again, happens more often than people realize. I helped a buddy move his big ass gun safe that was around 1k lbs. He's a big strong guy, I'm modestly strong, we had a dolly etc, we got it done. That's also when the light bulb went off for him about bolting it down.
What you have there is a fancy well made RSC pretending to a safe that lists for Starting at $4,499. I'd get a real safe from true safe make, such as AMSEC for that kinda $. It looks like a good RSC, but a wildly over priced RSC.
(1) From the page posted that breaks that topic down:
"It's essential to understand what usually passes for a "safe" is nothing of the kind. Companies spend a lot of time on fancy paint jobs, impressive handles, and marketing to convince people they are getting a true safe. However, the vast majority of what's sold are Residential Security Container (RSCs)
Companies give you a shiny fancy looking door, etc, but at the end of the day it's at best RSC rated, and not a 'safe' as viewed by anyone who actually knows/installs real safes. It's important to note, not all RSCs are created equal, but when you look at what the actual RSC UL rating means, it will make you cringe:
"UL rated safes that carry the RSC label offer protection from tool attacks against the door of the safe for five minutes."
(1) Ignore the "safe" in this vid, just note there's a specific method used to pry a door where two guys work together vs the random non coordinated attempt in the vid you posted as a marketing tool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaBTGCyPNr4
RetroRevolver77
07-04-18, 10:13
I have a Sturdy Safe with the upgraded 1/4" thick 4' sections of hardened steel plate welded to the interior all the way around. The safe is to damn heavy, I mean it's way to heavy.
Thanks for clarifying. A lot of these manufacturer videos are misleading.
What I want to know is, if the safe is bolted down, can you still pry it open if there's enough room?
What is the thickness required so it can't be drilled?
RetroRevolver77
07-06-18, 15:32
Thanks for clarifying. A lot of these manufacturer videos are misleading.
What I want to know is, if the safe is bolted down, can you still pry it open if there's enough room?
What is the thickness required so it can't be drilled?
They have to have a recessed crow bar resistant edge that is pry proof and have upgraded welded in hardened plate lining for the best protection. Sturdy Safe has a minimum outer layer in 7 gauge steel that would be .1875" thick which you can add another .25" thick steel hard plate welded to the entire interior and your at .4375" an inch for the body. They offered at the time I ordered mine 4 gauge steel .2343" thick with .25" weld plate upgrade for a total body thickness of .4843. Outer door minimum .375" or 3/8" steel with a .25" hard plate upgrade to a door thickness of .625". However like I was saying, it can get to heavy. Most of the cheaper safes out there are something thin like 10 gauge .1406" with sheetrock for fire lining- so a pick ax can easily perforate the sides.
https://www.sturdysafe.com/pages/how-sturdy-safes-are-built
This is similar to what I have and Sturdy uses firewool for their fire lining- same stuff that lines the oven in your kitchen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnVbmI-kr6w
Thanks for clarifying. A lot of these manufacturer videos are misleading.
What I want to know is, if the safe is bolted down, can you still pry it open if there's enough room?
Actually, what I posted above is exactly that, so yes. Given enough room, might even help them that it's bolted down as it does not move around on them as you can see in vid above. If they don't have that kinda of room to work with, because it's in a closet or something, no doubt would add much difficulty for them to get the leverage needed to do that, so they attempt to get it out of the closet and dump it on it's back to get the needed leverage.
What is the thickness required so it can't be drilled?
Given enough time, far as I know, just about any safe could be drilled, but that's not the common tactic. The major concerns are brute force opening per vid above, use of a easy to bring, or even find in the house they broke into, cutter tool, or simply taking the safe and opening at their leisure. Drilling takes too much time and way more skill to know where to drill, etc and is unlikely. Usual issue Qs are, what are you trying to protect, what's the budget, and what level of protection are you expecting?
To add, a quality RSC, plus correctly installed locks, etc on your place, and a few cameras, is also a cost effective multi layer approach to making it more hassle than it's worth for anyone but the most determined types.
As some else mentioned, looking at refurbished legit safes is a great option (other than rust, it's not like they age really), vs shiny new RSCs that look like a legit safe, but aint. Steal costs $, fancy paint jobs and marketing BS, not so much ;)
They have to have a recessed crow bar resistant edge that is pry proof and have upgraded welded in hardened plate lining for the best protection. Sturdy Safe
From what I know and have seen, as a non SME on the subject, hard to beat for the $. They don't waste effort making them look pretty to be sure, but clearly not going to be easy to open using typical approaches most use to today.
RetroRevolver77
07-06-18, 16:23
From what I know and have seen, as a non SME on the subject, hard to beat for the $. They don't waste effort making them look pretty to be sure, but clearly not going to be easy to open using typical approaches most use to today.
I think Sturdy Safe is the best overall on the market because of the extra fold in the door seems to resist pry bars, thicker bodies to resist cutting, and the 5" long dead bolts. However if that isn't enough they'll weld 1/4" hard plate to the entire interior but that takes the weight to over 1500 lbs for the 36x27x60. They even offer a stainless interior weld plate upgrade- to resist plasma torches.
Not sure why stainless would resist a plasma torch? My plasma cutter goes through stainless like butter. But I do agree they make an awesome safe for the money.
I think Sturdy Safe is the best overall on the market because of the extra fold in the door seems to resist pry bars, thicker bodies to resist cutting, and the 5" long dead bolts. However if that isn't enough they'll weld 1/4" hard plate to the entire interior but that takes the weight to over 1500 lbs for the 36x27x60. They even offer a stainless interior weld plate upgrade- to resist plasma torches.
Sturdy is only the "best" from a cost vs performance standpoint (I'd argue Ft. Knox and AmSec are about equal with them). Sturdy's choice to use fiberglass insulation is dubious at best - last I checked, they were still refusing to test their ratings with independent, 3rd-party evaluators.
Look at Graffunder F-Rate safes (actual safes, not RSCs) if you want to see what "best" begins to entail. 1" thick solid steel external walls, for starters.
RetroRevolver77
07-07-18, 08:49
Sturdy is only the "best" from a cost vs performance standpoint (I'd argue Ft. Knox and AmSec are about equal with them). Sturdy's choice to use fiberglass insulation is dubious at best - last I checked, they were still refusing to test their ratings with independent, 3rd-party evaluators.
Look at Graffunder F-Rate safes (actual safes, not RSCs) if you want to see what "best" begins to entail. 1" thick solid steel external walls, for starters.
Sturdy has some customers' safes featured after complete real world burn downs. Plus from what I know, they'll give you a new safe if you post results after going through a burn down. That was good enough for me personally but others might feel differently. Basically for me, for the price, I got a Sturdy and had it all upgraded with thicker steel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWAip6SFlM
boombotz401
07-07-18, 09:13
For anyone else that may search in the future this was my solution
Exchanged for a centurion 24.
We made a base out of 2x 2x10 and plywood to spread out the weight, felted to match the floor and bolted it to the base. The base was made larger than the doorway so the safe cannot easily be removed from the room
Backside of the safe is bolted to wall studs and in a corner making it harder for pry attacks
There are cameras watching the safe at all times I can pull up on my phone and receive notification of any motion
Liberty Safelert installed as a secondary measure
My thoughts are if someone is going to hit it with a grinder it won’t matter if I have 10/12 or 14ga walls and the placement will hopefully make a prybar difficult
As another user said the safe is only one part of the security, in this case with the police dept only 5 minutes away, nice neighbors, gun insurance and monitoring systems one can hope not to be a victim
For privacy I will keep photos of install the web
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. However if I had a lot of class III items and overall weight wasn't an issue to move into location, I would definitely go with a Graffunder.
Amsec is the only company that makes a TL30x6 rated gun safe I believe, and that's what I'd get if I was protecting class III stuff. AMSEC is the company that produces commercial grade stuff for jewelers, etc you will see in use commercially and more experience in higher end safe making than anyone. As one class III stolen would be worth more than even even that massive safe, I'd get the top of the line
RetroRevolver77
07-07-18, 09:37
Amsec is the only company that makes a TL30x6 rated gun safe I believe, and that's what I'd get if I was protecting class III stuff. AMSEC is the company that produces commercial grade stuff for jewelers, etc you will see in use commercially and more experience in higher end safe making than anyone. As one class III stolen would be worth more than even even that massive safe, I'd get the top of the line
Well that's what each person should assess for themselves, their needs versus costs.
Well that's what each person should assess for themselves, their needs versus costs.
And make sure not to over spend on shiny glossy paint jobs vs legit security. A balance to be struck. From what I see, I think Sturdy would be in the B rating of a safe, which is above RSC but considering entry level as a true safe. As they have not been UL rated, guess on my end. I'd be perfectly happy with a Sturdy product for the $.
I'll never buy a large safe again. Get a Zanoti so you can take it apart and move it yourself.
Bought in 2006--I'm on my 5th move with my Zanotti.
RetroRevolver77
07-08-18, 10:02
Bought in 2006--I'm on my 5th move with my Zanotti.
My friend has one and it's a very nice safe plus he has his anchored to some studs in the wall as well as the floor. He to has moved with it something like five times in the past decade and he swears by Zanotti. I didn't listen to him when I bought mine and now looking at moving across country myself wishing I had had heeded his advice.
My friend has one and it's a very nice safe plus he has his anchored to some studs in the wall as well as the floor. He to has moved with it something like five times in the past decade and he swears by Zanotti. I didn't listen to him when I bought mine and now looking at moving across country myself wishing I had had heeded his advice.
But may not be apples to applies in security and fire protection to that Sturdy you own.
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