View Full Version : Rock River Stops Production!
I was at a local store here in N. IL who is a very large Rock River dealer. I would guess they have a good 100 plus Rock Rivers in stock. They told me that as of last week Rock River has stopped production of 1911 pistols and is putting all their efforts into AR builds. They are expecting bands and are putting all their efforts into producing as many AR's as possible.
Glad to see them doing this. I hope more manufactures step up production of lowers, uppers and mags. No one wants to get caught like last time.
This is true as of 9/17. Here's a link to get it straight from the horse's mouth. However, they state a different reason for the decision than what your store told you.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=209
That is interesting, I wonder which one is correct?
That is interesting, I wonder which one is correct?
It is probably a combination of the two. They state that they were having problems getting parts up to their standard, and that is probably true, but I wouldn't down that a looming AWB and the demand for AR's steadily increasing helped steer their decision. I'm just curious to see if this change really is temporary or not.
Robb Jensen
10-25-08, 21:43
It took us 10-12 months to get them when they were taking orders......
It took us 10-12 months to get them when they were taking orders......
WOW really? Are they as good or better then a Wilson Combat?
Robb Jensen
10-25-08, 21:47
WOW really? Are they as good or better then a Wilson Combat?
The ones I've handled and shot I liked better than Wilsons, mostly personal preference.
RRA had always seemed to have a backlog of 1911 orders, and as a limited production shop, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't difficult retaining qualified smiths. When Bob Miller was employed at RRA, I remember him "trouble-shooting" for customers. I've never owned a RRA 1911, but I have two Miller Customs, and they are the highest quality pistols. Maybe some of you remember him, Dr. Bob @ 1911forum.com.
They may regret that decision if there's a renewed AWB. 1911's may end up being the only market segment in which they can make money. They won't be able to survive just servicing government contracts for AR's.
I don't know if they have any government contracts to service.
I think it is a purely economic decision. I think it is cheaper, easier and faster to build an AR than high-quality semi-custom 1911, and, with current demand for ARs...
Seth Harness
10-26-08, 17:31
They may regret that decision if there's a renewed AWB. 1911's may end up being the only market segment in which they can make money. They won't be able to survive just servicing government contracts for AR's.
RRA started out as a 1911 shop. I dont think turning off the lights and a few machines on one side of the shop to go work on the other side is that big of a deal. If an AWB hits and 1911's need to pick back up, I dont think it will be a big issue. Just my opinion.
theJanitor
10-26-08, 19:02
i'd rather see them continue 1911's instead of AR's. there are a ton of quality AR manufacturers around. but very few that make 1911's as nice as RRA.
RRA started out as a 1911 shop. I dont think turning off the lights and a few machines on one side of the shop to go work on the other side is that big of a deal. If an AWB hits and 1911's need to pick back up, I dont think it will be a big issue. Just my opinion.
That's probably true. It probably wouldn't be that hard for them to tool back up for different kind of production if they HAVE to, especially when they've done it before.
Anyway, I hope I'm totally wrong about the above statement. I don't want to have to see Rock River, or any other AR maker or anyone else who sells or services them, go out of business because of another AWB.
I don't know if they have any government contracts to service.
I think it is a purely economic decision. I think it is cheaper, easier and faster to build an AR than high-quality semi-custom 1911, and, with current demand for ARs...
So true.
eternal24k
10-28-08, 09:00
I would still love to score one of their frames.
David Thomas
10-28-08, 11:13
i'd rather see them continue 1911's instead of AR's. there are a ton of quality AR manufacturers around. but very few that make 1911's as nice as RRA.
I agree 100%; however, that would probably not make economic sense for RRA.
i'd rather see them continue 1911's instead of AR's. there are a ton of quality AR manufacturers around. but very few that make 1911's as nice as RRA.
Yup.....
theJanitor
10-28-08, 11:27
I agree 100%; however, that would probably not make economic sense for RRA.
agreed. i balked on several chances this year to buy some nice RRA's. i'm now regretting it :(
Absolutely makes sense. If Hussein Obammy get elected (god forbid) black rifles sales will be strong in anticipation of a ban. Sales of expensive semi-custom .45s with less than 10 rd capacity won't be.
Gun store sales of Black rifles have been brisk as of late. Rock river is recognizing that this is election related and wants to take advantage of this as any good business should. Not enough companies offer a Ban compliant version. m.h.o.
Sorry - My mistake. I did not mean to pop in edit mode, only to quote you.
Jay Cunningham
10-28-08, 11:48
i'd rather see them continue 1911's instead of AR's. there are a ton of quality AR manufacturers around. but very few that make 1911's as nice as RRA.
Considering how long it takes them to get their AR's out the door, and considering that the reputation of their AR's has gone down hill over the last few years, and considering that the rep of their 1911's remains pretty high - I'd say that I would tend to agree with you.
rubberneck
10-28-08, 11:58
I agree 100%; however, that would probably not make economic sense for RRA.
Boy that would be the understatement of the year. According to the ATF, in 2006 RRA made 252 handguns versus 17,554 rifles. Even if they were turning a $1000 profit on each hand gun to $100 profit on every AR, they would still earn seven times more in rifle sales than handgun sales.
FWIW those 17,554 rifles produced exceeds than the combined output (for civilian use) of Wilson, Armalite, LMT, CMMG, Noveske, Sabre and LWRC by several thousand.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/stats/afmer/afmer2006.pdf
If i remember correctly some of the RRA staff came from Les Baer which is why their pistols look almost like copies of Baer's. if you want something like the RRA 1911 get a Baer. He makes his own parts btw except for barrels I think everything else is now made in his shop.
varoadking
11-01-08, 05:49
According to the ATF, in 2006 RRA made 252 handguns versus 17,554 rifles. Even if they were turning a $1000 profit on each hand gun to $100 profit on every AR, they would still earn seven times more in rifle sales than handgun sales.
Remember that the AR lower receiver counts as the firearm. Many of those "rifle" sales may actually have simply been lowers...
Gun store sales of Black rifles have been brisk as of late. Rock river is recognizing that this is election related and wants to take advantage of this as any good business should. Not enough companies offer a Ban compliant version. m.h.o.
I suspect it has more to do with the time & effort it takes to build semi-custom 1911's vs. the profit margin. Not to mention the customer service nightmares they must get from dealing with high-end 1911 buyers. I would rather eat a bullet than deal with about 25% of them. That being said, the last ban was a boom for the 1911 market.
No way was RRA making a $1000 profit per 1911. I would doubt it was even half that much. I suspect building 1911's was more a labor of love for RRA than anything else.
I would assume it a lot easier and profitable for a company to just kick out AR's.
rubberneck
11-01-08, 10:00
Remember that the AR lower receiver counts as the firearm. Many of those "rifle" sales may actually have simply been lowers...
So does just about every major ar manufacturer.
rubberneck
11-01-08, 10:02
No way was RRA making a $1000 profit per 1911. I would doubt it was even half that much. I suspect building 1911's was more a labor of love for RRA than anything else.
I would assume it a lot easier and profitable for a company to just kick out AR's.
I used an exaggerated figure on the pistol just so how off base people's assumptions were that RRA should quit the AR market just to make 1911's. I would be surprised if RRA made 15X more money in AR sales than they did in 1911 sales.
Beefing up their production rates on their AR's cant be a good thing for their already abismal quality control.
varoadking
11-01-08, 20:08
So does just about every major ar manufacturer.
I wasn't disputing the number of sales, but the margin you suggested.
Even if they were turning a $1000 profit on each hand gun to $100 profit on every AR, they would still earn seven times more in rifle sales than handgun sales.
rubberneck
11-01-08, 20:40
I wasn't disputing the number of sales, but the margin you suggested.
Fine even if they were only making $50 on average per receiver (stripped or completed gun) they are still making a hell of a lot more money on AR's than 1911's which is the point. The semantics on how much they make on a stripped receiver versus a completed gun is just white noise.
BTW, if you are disputing the margin on the AR's why didn't you dispute the margin that I gave on the 1911's? I exaggerated their margin just to prove a point. There is no way in hell that they are making any where close to a $1000 on a 1911. It is probably much closer to $500 than $1000.
varoadking
11-02-08, 17:59
Fine even if they were only making $50 on average per receiver (stripped or completed gun) they are still making a hell of a lot more money on AR's than 1911's which is the point. The semantics on how much they make on a stripped receiver versus a completed gun is just white noise.
BTW, if you are disputing the margin on the AR's why didn't you dispute the margin that I gave on the 1911's? I exaggerated their margin just to prove a point. There is no way in hell that they are making any where close to a $1000 on a 1911. It is probably much closer to $500 than $1000.
Any particular reason you insist on belaboring this issue?
If i remember correctly some of the RRA staff came from Les Baer which is why their pistols look almost like copies of Baer's. if you want something like the RRA 1911 get a Baer. He makes his own parts btw except for barrels I think everything else is now made in his shop.
The owners, Mark and Chuck Larson, came from the Baer shop and before that worked for Les at the SA Custom Shop.
rubberneck
11-03-08, 09:22
Any particular reason you insist on belaboring this issue?
Says the guy who has ignored the point and done nothing but pick nits in this thread.:rolleyes:
Seth Harness
11-22-08, 12:43
They told me that as of last week Rock River has stopped production of 1911 pistols
I just spoke with one of the Larson Brothers (owners of RRA) this morning at breakfast. You heard right, no more 1911's after this year. I didnt want to believe it til' I heard it from the horses mouth. Still hard to believe :eek:, get them now if you want one. Frame choices are down to stems and seeds...
Seth Harness
11-22-08, 12:49
I suspect it has more to do with the time & effort it takes to build semi-custom 1911's vs. the profit margin.
Exactly, I gathered this exact point from our conversation this morning.
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