View Full Version : mental question
just curious. if one has ptsd. does question 11F have to answered "yes" on the ATF form 4473?
Not unless it was a court ruling or you were involuntarily committed to a mental health facility.
I AM NOT A LAWYER. NOTHING I WRITE HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE
Instructions for 11F
Question 11.f. Adjudicated as a Mental Defective:
A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked
subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease: (1) is
a danger to himself or to others; or (2) lacks the mental capacity to contract or
manage his own affairs. This term shall include: (1) a finding of insanity by a court
in a criminal case; and (2) those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not
guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility.
Do you fit the category of either of the bold definitions? If the answer is "yes", has your condition been determined by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:
I'm guessing the answer to the first question is No, but even if it was Yes, the instructions state that some formal authority has to have also made that determination. IOW, a self diagnosis or some average Joe on the street like a nosy neighbor can't be the basis for you marking Yes.
I AM NOT A LAWYER. That is simply how I read the instructions. Those instructions were supposedly written so that you and I could easily and correctly fill out that form to exercise our 2A rights. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. YOU MAY GO TO JAIL FOR BELIEVING AND ACTING ON WHAT I JUST WROTE.
I assume you are asking because maybe you are preparing a written test for a class of some sort and want to see how various individuals may answer your question.
just curious. if one has ptsd. does question 11F have to answered "yes" on the ATF form 4473?
The question is not, "Do you have ptsd?", the question is "Have you ever been adjudicated a a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"
There are all kinds of PTSD with all kinds of treatment. They range from "sometimes I have trouble sleeping and difficulty with the memories of things that I saw" and treatment consists of a monthly support group to "Whenever I hear the doorbell I think it's an IED and I sometimes shoot my kitchen appliances because I can no longer tell the difference" and that person might be committed to a mental institution for treatment.
The real problem of course is the people who are most at risk, very often can't figure out they need help and as a result they aren't receiving treatment of any kind. Which of course makes question 11f almost pointless and futile.
Which of course makes question 11f almost pointless and futile. All of 4473 is pointless and futile.
All of 4473 is pointless and futile.
Pretty much yes.
Pretty much yes.
Couldn't agree more.
As much as I hate spectrums applied to social constructs, it certainly has validity in mental health. Especially for conditions like PTSD.
The problem with the 4473 is this.
If you are a prohibited person nothing happens. The transfer is denied and that's it...nothing. Nobody investigates you for trying to obtain a firearm illegally. It's a lot like trying to rob a bank, having the police show up and say "No you can't have the money" and then sending you home.
Theoretically there are three felonies when a prohibited person tries to obtain a firearm from a dealer. The mere handling of a firearm is a felony, attempting to obtain a firearm is a felony and presumably falsifying a 4473 in order to illegally obtain a firearm is a felony. But when this happens, nothing is done.
Even though you have the persons Driver's License info and signature on the 4473 nothing happens. NICS doesn't contact local LE agencies so that they can apprehend and arrest a prohibited person who has just tried to unlawfully obtain a firearm.
When was the last time anyone you knew committed three felonies with full documentation and nothing happened including even the reporting of the crime let alone any investigation or enforcement. Seems like it only happens with guns, and that's absurd given the "guns need to be banned mentality" of so many people, we aren't even enforcing the minimum safety net law that is intended to prevent criminals and other prohibited persons from obtaining firearms when they try.
Do they really think that after being told "No" by the local gun shop they will just give up, that they won't try and obtain firearms by other means or from other less than legal sources? Keep in mind we are talking about criminals and people with mental problems so severe they cannot legally own a firearm. These aren't exactly "follow the rules" kinds of people.
So why are we wasting time having people who are NOT prohibited persons engage in this pointless song and dance? They are by definition NOT the problem and having them fill out 4473s and be subject to NICS checks becomes infringement when those who are denied are not even investigated.
Certainly there will be some cases where people were denied but technically don't qualify as criminal intent to illegally obtain a firearm, but in most cases there is a reason and they are prohibited for a reason. Even if we imposed simple fines of say $100 (which is a lot cheaper than a speeding ticket which isn't a felony) on prohibited persons who attempt to illegally obtain a firearm we could do a lot of good with that money and unlike the 4473 the $100 fine will be an actual deterrence.
Maybe we could even use that money to investigate prohibited persons who attempt to obtain firearms. Might even actually prevent a more serious crime or even a tragedy if you engaged in that minimum effort. Might even be able to put a repeat, violent offender away for good.
^ thats logic though.
They dont want to stop bad people from getting guns, they want to enact new laws to prevent you from owning them.
And if you are erroneously "denied" it can take you more than a year to challenge it and receive a unique ID number so you can purchase firearms legally again. The U.S. government essentially is denying your civil rights for no other reason than their incompetence.
Moose-Knuckle
07-16-18, 04:56
All of 4473 is pointless and futile.
Well it does serve as a backdoor registration of sorts.
M4C member Belmont31R has a thread about an ATF agent knocking on his front door with a copy of every 4473 he ever filled out.
He got caught up in the Fast & Furious cluster **** (no he didn't do anything wrong).
Well, here in VA they go after prohibited persons who try to obtain firearms.
We don't use NICS, specifically, although the states system checks all the same databases. The Virginia system was in place long before NICS, it was set up to get past the Brady waiting period. Supposedly, NICS is based off our system.
Anyway, since all background checks in the state go to one room at the state police HQ, the police immediately know what's going on. They will call the store, ask if the person is still there, and can we get them to stay.
I've seen people walk in the store to buy a gun, but leave in the custody of state troopers.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
Well, here in VA they go after prohibited persons who try to obtain firearms.
We don't use NICS, specifically, although the states system checks all the same databases. The Virginia system was in place long before NICS, it was set up to get past the Brady waiting period. Supposedly, NICS is based off our system.
Anyway, since all background checks in the state go to one room at the state police HQ, the police immediately know what's going on. They will call the store, ask if the person is still there, and can we get them to stay.
I've seen people walk in the store to buy a gun, but leave in the custody of state troopers.
Sent from my SGP612 using Tapatalk
Really? First time I've even heard of it. In FL we used FDLE and I didn't get a lot of non approvals but when it happened, nothing ever happened.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.