View Full Version : Officer shoots through windshield while driving in pursuit
Adrenaline_6
07-17-18, 09:48
Anyone see this? Opinions?
https://fox13now.com/2018/07/16/dramatic-video-shows-police-pursuit-officer-shooting-through-car-windshield/
He did get the bad guys in the end, that's good that it all worked out for the better and the scumbags were caught and/or disposed of, but it seems that innocent people could have been easily hurt spraying through a windshield like that on a street in a residential neighborhood. I would like to know what the pros think though.
LAS VEGAS – Dramatic body cam footage of a Las Vegas officer-involved shooting was released Monday, in which an officer appears to shoot at a suspect through a patrol car windshield.
Assistant Sheriff Tim Kelly with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department said that on approximately 9:30 a.m. on July 11, officers observed an SUV that appeared to be connected to an attempted murder where a victim was shot multiple times.
Officers began to pursue the vehicle, Kelly said. During the pursuit, two suspects allegedly shot at officers 34 times, “striking multiple marked patrol vehicles.”
Kelly said officers returned fire a total of 32 times.
“The suspects were identified as 23-year- old Fidel Miranda and 30-year-old Rene Nunez,” Kelly said. “Miranda was declared deceased by medical personnel on scene.”
A video of the full press conference on the incident can be seen below:
dwhitehorne
07-17-18, 10:28
My LT pushed the video out to me this morning. Quite disturbing. Looking at his hash marks he is not a rookie. Those were some interesting moves. I hope no one but the bad guys got hurt. The guy must have been a machine gunner in the military because he seems to have the 6 to 8 round burst down. Glad he figured out his gun was empty when he went to get out of the cruiser. David
Considering he was being engaged by murder suspects, it's hard to ACQB his decision to return fire while driving, but at the end of the day, he's responsible for every bullet that leaves his gun. If he felt he had no choice but to engage from his vehicle while driving, I would think more steady calculated shots would have been better than the rapid fire spray and pray mode, to ensure he doesn't send any fliers into the surrounding houses and traffic. And it sounds like there weren't any other civilian's hit, so I guess he got the job done. Glad they nailed the guys. It reminds me of another video i saw a year or so ago where an officer was engaging a suspect through the windshield while driving, but he was using his patrol rifle
I didn't have a problem with what he did. Not at all.
Shit... getting out of the car and doing a reload was a challenge... but he got it done. You forget about stuff like that... working doors, etc.
A running gun battle from cars...wow! I don't know what to make of it, it seems that hit probability would have been very low and stray bullets all about. Worst reload and grip I've seen in quite a while. Glad the bad guys wound up in jail or dead.
Very impressive. High speed chase one handed, using his radio to keep dispatch updated, warning the squad car in front to stay back due to BG shooting, and engaging from inside his moving vehicle. Calm and cool.
Wonder what ammo he was using. I assume bonded. Were any rounds deflcted? Is shooting from inside out through the windshield even taught? (If not, perhaps it should be).
I wonder about any hearing damage after a dozen or more rounds fired from inside the vehicle.
People do dumb stuff under stress, so not knocking the officer, but things to learn from- reliads should be automatic, that was rough, but still didnt take all that long- really awkward though.
Second, he really could have made better use of cover.
Bonus points for dedication to eliminating the threat, he was aggressive and deliberate, which seems to be the deciding factor in a lot if these.
Shooting through the window was good, he tried going out and couldnt, so he got 2 hands on the gun and sent a volley through the glass.
Im not a tactics person so my opinion is probably worthless.
I think the officer deserves huge plaudits for his skill of driving and shooting. Has the one snafu on the mag change but solves the problem and engages again. For the person who asked about ammo, I know LVMPD use to use Speer Gold Dot. I would assume they still do.
I think the training fanatics will criticize the mag change. I started to until I realized the full context... stopping the vehicle, working the car door, radio, moving, etc. He got it done, and didn't panic when the mag was backwards.
There's another vid of an LEO shooting through the wind shield at someone I saw not long ago. Have to find it. Wild stuff
The Vegas cop did a very good job. Looks like he got close enough to suspects to get hits in vehicle, causing it to crash.
There's another vid of an LEO shooting through the wind shield at someone I saw not long ago. Have to find it. Wild stuffI think I know what you're talking about. It was in Kentucky or something. At night. State trooper shooting his AR through the windshield while in pursuit of a suspect.
That was a few years ago
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
It was Oklahoma Highway Patrol during a chase with Michael Vance back in 2016. Engaged him from the drivers seat with a rifle mid pursuit.
https://youtu.be/GvU2wa0G9vE
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
WickedWillis
07-17-18, 13:13
There has been a ton of MMQBing on this shooting. At the end of the day, bad guy got it, and no innocents or officers were hurt. That's a win.
I think I know what you're talking about. It was in Kentucky or something. At night. State trooper shooting his AR through the windshield while in pursuit of a suspect.
That was a few years ago
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Found it. Was Kentucky, but daytime and handgun:
https://www.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article209977044.html
sundance435
07-17-18, 13:17
There's another vid of an LEO shooting through the wind shield at someone I saw not long ago. Have to find it. Wild stuff
Was it the one from Oklahoma, trooper shooting his AR from the dash at a murder suspect's vehicle? That was awesome. However, he was in a remote area. I won't say what this guy did was flat-out wrong, but I would use this as a training tool as to whether shooting from inside the squad with a handgun while moving in an urban environment is the right call. Anything goes differently and there's a decent chance an innocent gets hit. To me, it's like the advice to guys doing 100+ mph to calls, if you don't make it to the call, you're not doing anyone any good - if you're shooting at a murder suspect and hit a bystander, then what was it all for? Same reason I don't think aggressive pursuit policies make sense in 99% of situations.
As for the mag change, as someone said, dude was trying to do 4 things at once - not very often you get to train for that.
It was Oklahoma Highway Patrol during a chase with Michael Vance back in 2016. Engaged him from the drivers seat with a rifle mid pursuit.
https://youtu.be/GvU2wa0G9vE
That one was straight up gangsta! :dirol:
Was it the one from Oklahoma, trooper shooting his AR from the dash at a murder suspect's vehicle? .
No, see link above. ;)
Moose-Knuckle
07-17-18, 13:59
I think the officer deserves huge plaudits for his skill of driving and shooting. Has the one snafu on the mag change but solves the problem and engages again.
This all day long.
It's good to see agencies who still have balls and let their guys do what is needed instead of having some desk jockey terminate the pursuit.
dwhitehorne
07-17-18, 14:03
There has been a ton of MMQBing on this shooting. At the end of the day, bad guy got it, and no innocents or officers were hurt. That's a win.
He’s lucky if that’s the case. When it all works out in the end he’s the hero. None of those actions were taught or would be supported by any LEO management. If a lawsuit were to come up from an erratic pistol round he would be thrown under the bus instantly. As for the driving, overtaking the lead SUV cruiser at high speed is living dangerously. David
Considering he was being engaged by murder suspects, it's hard to ACQB his decision to return fire while driving, but at the end of the day, he's responsible for every bullet that leaves his gun.
That. The people firing on him were putting everyone at risk. Wasn't ideal but the only way to make everyone safer was to bring the shooting to an end. You don't always get to decide where that happens.
I think the training fanatics will criticize the mag change. I started to until I realized the full context... stopping the vehicle, working the car door, radio, moving, etc. He got it done, and didn't panic when the mag was backwards.
I must be a dick cause the mag change and the grip drove me insane...
They started it.
Much luck during the driving. Officer put himself and everyone else at high risk. But, I wouldn't want to see those bad guys get away after shooting at the cops, either. But again, the BG's started it.
Who would you blame if your loved one was hurt or killed in a crash or by a bullet during this pursuit?
As for tactics, I wouldn't want to shoot through the windshield ever, if I could help it. Loud. Glass in the eyes could take you right out of the fight and leave you very vulnerable. Risky move.
I was surprised at the bursts, too. I was expecting more deliberate single-shots. I think he fired between 29 and 31 shots. Likely had one mag left. I wonder how many hits there were on the BG?
Maybe he just needed some training firing support side only and non-dominant eye with the pistol canted out of the drivers window? I'm off to my garage.....!
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-17-18, 15:15
Seems like he would have been better off driving full time and decisively PITing them and then engaging them. Kudos to putting the hammer down and engaging the threat once he got out and movement to cover.
Riding along and gangstering them out the side window! YEE HAAA.
What was the dinging in the car?
Lots of bad decisions. He got lucky. Pretty sure this video will never be used in training as exemplary tactics.
There's another vid of an LEO shooting through the wind shield at someone I saw not long ago. Have to find it. Wild stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p47ONDlR9aY
What was the dinging in the car?
Seat belt?
I must be a dick cause the mag change and the grip drove me insane...
Not a dick, just a fanatic. I mentioned the mag change and grip. Isn't that why we train at all, so we do the right thing naturally, without really thinking about it? We revert to our training when we get totally jacked up on adrenalin and chaos.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-17-18, 16:29
Seat belt?
That was what I thought, just wondered if it were a 'lights on' thing. High-speed chase with out a seatbelt- driving with one hand, radio in the other gun in the third hand. That was exciting not knowing if he was going to crash and go through the windshield or shoot his hand.
That was what I thought, just wondered if it were a 'lights on' thing. High-speed chase with out a seatbelt- driving with one hand, radio in the other gun in the third hand. That was exciting not knowing if he was going to crash and go through the windshield or shoot his hand.
I wonder if any agencies are equipped so that the Officer doesn't have to key the mike while driving to talk?
Business_Casual
07-17-18, 17:15
So which is the best round for shooting through the windshield during a high-speed pursuit? 9mm or 40SW?
So which is the best round for shooting through the windshield during a high-speed pursuit? 9mm or 40SW?
.45 acp FTW!!!!
All things considered, dude has some good driving skills. I have seen officers wreck under more ideal conditions.
dwhitehorne
07-17-18, 17:27
We run our mics on the dash so you can leave in the dash and just just talk. Even with the siren blaring it comes across the taped line fine. If you can believe it the engine makes more noise than the siren.
There was a push in the early 2000’s to get something like motors use in the helmet. It was a contraption that looked like a dispatcher head set that we didn’t go with. I’m sure there is some type of Bluetooth options now but in my 24 years the old Motorola mic works fine. Besides you can bonk a rookie in the head with it when they do something stupid. David
This all day long.
It's good to see agencies who still have balls and let their guys do what is needed instead of having some desk jockey terminate the pursuit.
With a murder suspect and shots being fired, I doubt the pursuit was going to be terminated, but........
That. The people firing on him were putting everyone at risk. Wasn't ideal but the only way to make everyone safer was to bring the shooting to an end. You don't always get to decide where that happens.
Agreed on the shooting. Situation dictates tactics. One thing we emphasized during our pursuit training was following distance and in long term pursuits, to fall back to see if reduced pressure lessened dangerous driving behavior.
The officer was obviously more focused on maintaining pursuit then the traffic conditions he was operating in.
If you watch his head, there is little or no movement to clear the intersections he blazed through, red or green light, trust me he wasn't using eyes to scan.
At Mojave and Bonanza (his call out on the radio - :30 on my player) he goes between two lanes of vehicles - this has the effect of shielding his lights and siren from cross traffic - and busted a red light with no slowing except when he got off the gas to maneuver around a car right at the intersection. Judging from the traffic present, this is a heavy traffic intersection.
At around :55, he busts another light - this time in the wrong lane of traffic.
Most state's emergency vehicle operations statutes have some language such as the foregoing provisions shall not relieve the driver of an authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons, nor shall such provisions protect the driver from the consequences of reckless disregard for the safety of others.
I'm glad it ended well, I hope this is a wake up call to the agency that they need to up their pursuit/emergency response training.
For those of you who are inclined to poo poo my comments, what would your answer be if the unit plowed the SUV containing your wife and kids as she drove through the intersection of Mojave and Bonanza? Would you say no problem, he was chasing bad guys?
Like I said, I'm glad it ended with no injury to officers or uninvolved third parties. I hope someone that knows their ass from a hole-in-the-ground reviews the tape and sees the need for training.
Lots of bad decisions. He got lucky. Pretty sure this video will never be used in training as exemplary tactics.
I have to reluctantly agree with this. Not ragging on him for wanting to shoot back, I get that part.
Question: bullets fired into a windshield from outside the vehicle generally tend to deflect downward, correct? Will they then deflect upward if fired from inside? (since the angle of the glass is the opposite)
Averageman
07-17-18, 18:57
I'm wondering what his heart rate was at about a minute in and then after the last shot was fired.
I'm guessing about 180-200 BPM.
Business_Casual
07-17-18, 19:28
I have to reluctantly agree with this. Not ragging on him for wanting to shoot back, I get that part.
Question: bullets fired into a windshield from outside the vehicle generally tend to deflect downward, correct? Will they then deflect upward if fired from inside? (since the angle of the glass is the opposite)
Generally they do, with 9 having more deflection than 45. This is based on a “media shoot” Kyle Defoor conducted for a carbine operator class I took at BW.
ETA - the first batch of 6-8 weakened it enough that the next batch was probably straight through.
Not a dick, just a fanatic. I mentioned the mag change and grip. Isn't that why we train at all, so we do the right thing naturally, without really thinking about it? We revert to our training when we get totally jacked up on adrenalin and chaos.
I suppose. The other half of me, the dick racer/karter was also "missed that apex... and that one, and that one. Don't let that other unit beat you! Good job taking the inside line but you missed the apex again!" lol I would be the worst cop ever lol
26 Inf - thank you for the insight. Not being in LE I hadn't thought of that. The cop in Vegas certainly has balls, and it all ended well (as far as we know), but perhaps some of his tactics were not as impressive as I had at first thought.
.45 acp FTW!!!!
While we weren't using a chronometer I've found small diameter, high velocity rounds to be most efficient when shooting through windshields. So .357 mag or 9mm +P would be ideal, of course it probably wouldn't be practical to load for the windshield contingency or keep a dedicated mag of windshield ammo.
ramairthree
07-17-18, 21:19
If he was after a typical speeder, stop sign slider, or graffiti artist, I would not be for the high speed chase.
If he was not positive of the people being armed murderers, I would not be for the chase.
Even if doing a high speed chase of positively ID’d armer murders, I would not be cool of shooting at them.
But when they are spraying bullets, I agree with taking the risks.
He did a solid job.
I'm wondering what his heart rate was at about a minute in and then after the last shot was fired.
I'm guessing about 180-200 BPM.
I imagine it jumped a few beats when vehicle stopped, he went to get out, and realized he was at slide lock.
Averageman
07-17-18, 23:05
I'm wondering what his heart rate was at about a minute in and then after the last shot was fired.
I'm guessing about 180-200 BPM.
My point being that unless you have been following some murderer's who are shooting at you during a high speed chase, well, perhaps you should cut him some slack.
What the guy didn't do was give up and back off.
This could have ended much worse and not only by stray gun fire, but by these guys committing a couple more murders.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
07-18-18, 00:28
Guy was engaging while being engaged. Thats a whole different story than just shooting into a moving vehicle. If only we can all do so well in those circumstances.
26 Inf - thank you for the insight. Not being in LE I hadn't thought of that. The cop in Vegas certainly has balls, and it all ended well (as far as we know), but perhaps some of his tactics were not as impressive as I had at first thought.
Most, hell, the vast majority of officers have not received adequate emergency response/pursuit training because of the manpower and danger involved in running legitimate emergency response training - training with cross traffic, oncoming traffic, visual barriers, etc.
With all that in mind, the best way to do that type of training is on a driving simulator with an instructor right by your shoulder coaching you, and then evaluating.
Unfortunately, not many academies/agencies have them, and even if they do, they are often under-utilized.
Ballsy move. Lots of risk but he got the job done.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.