View Full Version : Some hard truths about pistols (add yours)
1. The average person who actually conceals a pistol every day for defensive can NOT put 5 rds into 5 inches at 5 yds in 5 seconds from a cold start at the range. To say nothing of doing the same at 25 yds. (Doesn't make it useless of course)
2. The Russian PM Makarov pistol is generally more reliable than the Amerian Colt 1911a1.
3. You can shoot a BG once or 20 times with any service caliber, but if there is no major nervous system damage, he can still fight a while if he chooses to.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 09:55
2. The Russian PM Makarov pistol is generally more reliable than the Amerian Colt 1911a1.
And a boatload of other pistols that supposedly have a sterling reputation.
3. No one can shoot a pistol as accurately as a rifle without a lot more practice than is necessary to get good with a rifle, at least in my experience.
4. A pistol is an emergency expedient; you should use it to fight your way back to your long gun.
5. Despite all the hype about fancy expanding bullets, +P power levels, and hi-tech ballistic materials, etc., it's still about shot placement.
RAM Engineer
07-25-18, 10:05
6. There is no perfect gun. They all have compromises. Some more than others.
6. If a reasonable trigger 3.5-6lb is holding you back, you need to dry fire more
7. 25yds is not long range.
8. Moving while shooting accurately and manipulating the gun is simple, but not easy- you need to practice this.
9. If you cant move athletically, you’re at a disadvantage (I recently discovered this).
10. "Perfect practice makes perfect".
Work on what you suck at; distance/precision/positions (prone, barricade, kneeling/cover).
Anyone can shoot fast/close.
SomeOtherGuy
07-25-18, 10:21
11. The single most important factor in the real usefulness of any pistol is the availability of a quality kydex holster in the exact configuration you need for your purposes.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 10:25
11. In order to win a gunfight, remember the words of Wild Bill Hickok: "Take your time, Quickly." (I don't want to get into an argument about whether he actually said it or not, but it has been attributed to him).
12. Nothing on this Earth quite elicits the same feeling as you get from being shot at.
13. Any handgun that is mechanically reliable on the range can fail if it is not used correctly in an emergency (e.g., limp wristing, body contact, pocket fire).
Good grief these are all excellent!!
(Why did I sell my Makarov many years ago?)
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 10:40
14. The small under-power pistol you have on you is more useful than the man-stopping hand cannon you left in your car.
8. I remember taking out a newish shooter. He shot well enough, but wanted to move around after watching me.
So I simply had him engage one large target about 15 yds away walking slowly towards his 2 o clock. Poor fella forgot how to shoot AND walk!
I fixed it. Comical now, though.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 10:46
You should always choose the pistol you shoot well over the pistol you think you want.
11. The single most important factor in the real usefulness of any pistol is the availability of a quality kydex holster in the exact configuration you need for your purposes.
Took me a few guns to learn this!
And I still need one for a vz61! (More of a fun-gun but I'd still like a good holster for it)
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 10:49
There are three things necessary for a pistol to be a viable combat weapon: reliability, reliability, and reliability.
You should always choose the pistol you shoot well over the pistol you think you want.
This is number 15.
There are three things necessary for a pistol to be a viable combat weapon: reliability, reliability, and reliability.
There are more than that.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 10:53
There are more than that.
I was being tongue-in-cheek to emphasize the point. Of course there are many criteria for a pistol to be a viable combat weapon.
I was being tongue-in-cheek to emphasize the point. Of course there are many criteria for a pistol to be a viable combat weapon.
Oh, I know that you know! :)
16. Shooting on the move is skills are not a luxury, they are damn near a requirement.
17. Physical fitness has more affect on ones shooting ability than is given credit.
18. Never heard anyone debate caliber when they were on the receiving end of a bad day.
19. Age gets a hold on all of us, performance will not be the same in your 40's-50's as compared to 20's-30's. prepare/compensate accordingly.
20. Old guns in capable hands are far more decisive than new guns in lesser capable hands. Training AND experience have a lot to do with this.
21. We all go home eventually, meaning most will come to a point of lusting over something from the past, either from personal exposure or in general. Nothing wrong with this. Many folks laugh at this now, but one day others will laugh at them. Natural order I guess.
22. Staging and pinning the trigger does not increase accuracy, it ruins it (IME).
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 14:01
Owning a defensive handgun does not make you a gunfighter any more than owning a hammer makes you a carpenter. Owning the gun is just the first step; you need training and practice to become proficient with it.
Acquire a pistol with your chosen configuration of the controls and STICK TO IT. Owning multiple handguns with different controls invites confusion and hesitation under fire as you stumble to recall which pistol with what safeties you have in your hand.
Leaveammoforme
07-25-18, 14:46
- Actually go shoot
- Cycle carry ammo
Once a month because you want to be known as "The Gun Guy" at work is not acceptable.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 15:02
22. Staging and pinning the trigger does not increase accuracy, it ruins it (IME).
Gotta ask a question here. I'm not familiar with that terminology. I know I sucked at shooting a Glock until I learned to pull through the take-up (fake first stage) while aligning the sights one last time), then letting the trigger break.
Not sure what "staging and pinning" the trigger means.
Put in range time when you feel good and the weather is nice. Also put in range time when you're sick, sleep deprived, feel like crap, it's too hot/cold/wet outside.
MSparks909
07-25-18, 16:25
Gotta ask a question here. I'm not familiar with that terminology. I know I sucked at shooting a Glock until I learned to pull through the take-up (fake first stage) while aligning the sights one last time), then letting the trigger break.
Not sure what "staging and pinning" the trigger means.
That’s prepping the trigger and isn’t generally an issue. Staging the trigger is more of an issue on DA guns where some people will pull through most of the trigger, check sight alignment and then hammer the rest of the trigger press when the sights look good, which usually results in the bullet going somewhere other than the intended aiming point.
Pinning the trigger is when one pins the trigger to the rear after the shot and doesn’t allow the trigger to reset during recoil. Hop on YouTube and watch some people shoot. You’ll hear “Bang...click” as they reset the trigger after the shot. This is a bad habit and slows you down when shooting at speed. Also makes people put WAYYY too much emphasis on “audible and tactile resets.”
MSparks909
07-25-18, 16:27
23: An audible, tactile and short trigger reset isn’t nearly as important as people make it out to be.
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 16:34
A bigger bullet makes a bigger hole, but an accurate bullet makes an invisible soul.
All the service calibers work about the same: .38 spl, .40, .45, 9mm, .357.
Anything more powerful than that, is likely counter-productive.
Anything smaller is iffy for penetration.
(This line of thinking will get you bullied off the Terminal Ballistics section).
Gotta ask a question here. I'm not familiar with that terminology. I know I sucked at shooting a Glock until I learned to pull through the take-up (fake first stage) while aligning the sights one last time), then letting the trigger break.
Not sure what "staging and pinning" the trigger means.
Staging, pulling to second stage, stopping, getting sight pic and pulling final break. Ive done a lot of side by side and pulling through is much more consistent.
Prepping is pulling through, but starting before sights are perfect. If you need to stop, IME its best to fully release trigger and pull through.
Pinning is: pull trigger, fire, get sights on target, reset.
Not pinning is resetting during recoil (practically).
Doc Safari
07-25-18, 17:15
A pistol that is only a pistol so that it's not an SBR is not a proper pistol. Get a real handgun that you can actually hit something with.
MountainRaven
07-25-18, 17:47
>It’s a lot easier to make a double-stack 9mm 1911 reliable than it is to get a 1911 trigger in a Glock.
>A pocket 380 (or other mouse gun) will probably serve you just fine - because you will probably never need it, and your inability to shoot it well will never be exposed.
>You can probably comfortably conceal a larger handgun than you think you can.
>Shooting a comped pistol from retention won’t kill you. It won’t blind you. It won’t light you on fire. It may suck, but it will suck a good deal less than the alternative.
Not sure what number we’re up to but...
Competition will not get you killed in the streets. Put aside your ego and test your skills on the clock at a local match.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don’t always need a gun, but when you do... You need one bad!
"Two is one, one is none". Instructors have drilled this into me for the past 18 years...
"Two is one, one is none". Instructors have drilled this into me for the past 18 years...
Also true of girlfriends.
Edited to add:
At pistol velocities, those expensive premium hollow points don't do any better than FMJ. (This will really get me hammered; but ask any ME or big-city ER doctor).
Pinning the trigger is when one pins the trigger to the rear after the shot and doesn’t allow the trigger to reset during recoil. Hop on YouTube and watch some people shoot. You’ll hear “Bang...click” as they reset the trigger after the shot. This is a bad habit...
This annoys the heck out me. This "trend" popped up a few years back and when I see it think, "who the hell is teaching people to do this?! Keep trigger depressed long after the shot, very slowly release, then yank the trigger?! WTF?!"
I'm all for anyone shooting at me to dedicate themselves to this "technique". But I digress, just wanted to vent.
Also true of girlfriends.
Edited to add:
At pistol velocities, those expensive premium hollow points don't do any better than FMJ. (This will really get me hammered; but ask any ME or big-city ER doctor).
I think a flat-nosed/unexpanded jhp bullet cuts tissue better than a rounded bullet, is less likely to deflect, and if it expands and slows down has less ability to harm others if it perforates the intended target.
I think they are worthwhile in the service calibers.
Gunfighters carry ugly guns
The easier a pistol is to conceal, the harder it is to shoot
BrigandTwoFour
07-26-18, 07:15
- When it comes to a fight, ammo gives you time and fitness gives you life. Have plenty of both.
- All the fancy gizmos in the world don’t mean squat if you don’t have the proper mindset and practiced ability to execute
Gunfighters carry ugly guns
The easier a pistol is to conceal, the harder it is to shoot
I have had my share of gunfights, so I think I could qualify in the category of gunfighter.
My CZ P07, is not ugly! It is getting some beautiful wear in marks from shooting and carrying it every day, but she is still sexy as can be.
diving dave
07-26-18, 08:57
This is a great thread...In the words of one of my favorite instructors, Louie Awerbuck: " the pistol is a power delivery system , nothing more. What will make you prevail in a gunfight is mindset. Mindset, mindset, mindset." RIP Louie.
Beat Trash
07-26-18, 08:59
1) The most important thing is shot placement and the use of appropriate tactics, before your adversary can do the same to you.
2) You do not have the ability to predict in advance the perimeters of your critical incident. Quoting "FBI research says my gunfight will be within x feet and only x number of rounds will be fired" to justify why 5 rounds from your J-Frame w/o a reload is sufficient. If you happen to own a crystal ball that can predict in advance what an attack will consist of, put that crystal ball's information to good use and stay in bed that day.
3) Pick a pistol that is reliable, of a service caliber and that you can shoot well. Go practice with it. Then go practice some more.
4) "Carry Rotation" makes you sound like a teenage girl with a closet full of shoes trying to decide which pair to wear today. Pick a gun/platform and dedicate your time and effort training with it. (BUG's and NPE guns are special purpose tools. I'm referring to a primary carry gun. But you need to train with those limited use, special purpose tools also.)
5) Take the money you would spend on bling, colored barrels, ect and invest it in a training class. A really cool looking gun to me is one that has well earned wear marks. Similar to the older guy with the lines on his face as he projects the, "Don't F*ck With Me Look".
Doc Safari
07-26-18, 09:03
At pistol velocities, those expensive premium hollow points don't do any better than FMJ. (This will really get me hammered; but ask any ME or big-city ER doctor).
I've heard this often said of .380. Supposedly the trade-off in greater penetration somewhat mitigates the expected need for hollow points. If the bullet don't sink deep enough, it don't matter if it expands or not--something to that effect.
I would, however, love to see some actual scientific evidence that ball ammo is just as good for pistol defense, since most "experts" scream MAN-STOPPING BULLETS MUST EXPAND.
Doc Safari
07-26-18, 09:06
5) Take the money you would spend on bling, colored barrels, ect and invest it in a training class. A really cool looking gun to me is one that has well earned wear marks. Similar to the older guy with the lines on his face as he projects the, "Don't F*ck With Me Look".
The corollary to that is: If you carry an ugly gun you don't need to worry about the pretty being smacked off it. Gaston Glock was a genius in designing a pistol that actually looks nicer once it gets some real-world wear on it.
Gunfighters carry ugly guns
The easier a pistol is to conceal, the harder it is to shoot
Not if the cartridges it fires are less powerful than a larger model. (Ie: G42 is easier to shoot well than a G43)
But generally, yes. Harder to grip and so on.
You're probably not going to get it right the first time.
(G21 to Commander 1911 to P30 (.40 cal) to M&P9 to Sig P320C to VP9)
SomeOtherGuy
07-26-18, 10:55
You're probably not going to get it right the first time.
(G21 to Commander 1911 to P30 (.40 cal) to M&P9 to Sig P320C to VP9)
True, and I have the collection to show it. But a new shooter could skip five steps by just buying a Glock 19 as their first pistol. It may not end up being their only and last pistol, but it would be a far better starting place than almost anything else. Holster options are unlimited, mags are cheap, and any trainer who doesn't drool will be very familiar with them.
YSINTG (You Suck It's Not The Gun)
Doc Safari
07-26-18, 11:00
This is something that an older friend of mine used to drill into my head. It's worthy of discussion and a clever exercise in logic, but I'd love to hear your opinions as to whether or not it's actually true:
"Beware the man who uses ball ammo as his carry round. He's either such an amateur that he doesn't have enough knowledge to use good defensive rounds and may therefore be careless in other firearms handling discipline, OR, he's such a crack shot that he deilberately chooses FMJ for its reliability and he's not to be trifled with."
ramairthree
07-26-18, 11:26
You can’t miss fast enough to win, but you CAN hit slow enough to lose.
Your awesome new equipment will be mocked as outdated and dangerous at some point.
Your awesome new state of the art techniques and current expert concensous opinions will be mocked as outdated and dangerous at some point.
YOU will become outdated and dangerous at some point.
At some point the brighter and brighter lights you keep getting will actual be a hinderence in the dark. Your pistol is not for high beaming headlights at a deer a hundred yards away out in a field.
Many of your preferences are subjective and sometimes outright affectations. Don’t let them outweigh important objective points.
You can’t miss fast enough to win, but you CAN hit slow enough to lose.
I also like, "The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss."
Of course many hits is what we strive for.
I have had my share of gunfights, so I think I could qualify in the category of gunfighter.
My CZ P07, is not ugly! It is getting some beautiful wear in marks from shooting and carrying it every day, but she is still sexy as can be.
I dunno, the P07 trigger guard is just weird looking. Then again some guys like really big girls, and I carry a G19, so I'm not throwing stones.
Andy
I dunno, the P07 trigger guard is just weird looking. Then again some guys like really big girls, and I carry a G19, so I'm not throwing stones.
Andy
P.S. Yes, that means non-gunfighters like me carry ugly guns too.
1) The most important thing is shot placement and the use of appropriate tactics, before your adversary can do the same to you.
2) You do not have the ability to predict in advance the perimeters of your critical incident. Quoting "FBI research says my gunfight will be within x feet and only x number of rounds will be fired" to justify why 5 rounds from your J-Frame w/o a reload is sufficient. If you happen to own a crystal ball that can predict in advance what an attack will consist of, put that crystal ball's information to good use and stay in bed that day.
3) Pick a pistol that is reliable, of a service caliber and that you can shoot well. Go practice with it. Then go practice some more.
4) "Carry Rotation" makes you sound like a teenage girl with a closet full of shoes trying to decide which pair to wear today. Pick a gun/platform and dedicate your time and effort training with it. (BUG's and NPE guns are special purpose tools. I'm referring to a primary carry gun. But you need to train with those limited use, special purpose tools also.)
5) Take the money you would spend on bling, colored barrels, ect and invest it in a training class. A really cool looking gun to me is one that has well earned wear marks. Similar to the older guy with the lines on his face as he projects the, "Don't F*ck With Me Look".
At pistol velocities, those expensive premium hollow points don't do any better than FMJ. (This will really get me hammered; but ask any ME or big-city ER doctor).
100 percent agree!
Also true of girlfriends.
Edited to add:
At pistol velocities, those expensive premium hollow points don't do any better than FMJ. (This will really get me hammered; but ask any ME or big-city ER doctor).
Or we could ask experts that actually study this stuff. Is there any case studies that show a greater killing capacity for FMJ?
brickboy240
07-27-18, 15:42
For its size, capacity, reliability, accuracy and ease of maintenance, the Glock 19 is still king of the hill. Others come and go, bringing a better trigger, appearance, grip angle but for 99.99% of us and our needs...the plain Jane Glock 19 will completely fill our needs.
I have carried a Hi Power, a revolver, Glocks and CZ P07 in dangerous places.
Hi Powers and the CZ are sexy, Glock is a biker chick that can run you hard all night long, finish you call you a punk ass bitch cause you can't keep up. But don't take her home to meet your mama
Beware the Beware sayings, because they are 99% false.
My #1 rule is have a gun.
Period.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-27-18, 16:47
1. Get a J-frame and carry it
2. Buy all the other guns you are going to try to carry but eventually leave at the house.
Wow, I don't own a j frame, but I carry a gun everyday.
Why cause a pistol is a poor substitute for a rifle and a J frame is even worse.
Having said that, a J frame will solve 95% of American self defense needs. But my Glock 26 is my J frame, for when I don't want to carry a full sized pistol.
Doc Safari
07-27-18, 17:25
I love the J-Frame. I had several at one time. But it just doesn't conceal like a Ruger LCP or something. In the summer out here in the desert you just don't wear the extra clothing you do in other parts of the country. And people built like me just can't conceal larger handguns very well to begin with.
MountainRaven
07-27-18, 18:42
1. Get a J-frame and carry it
2. Buy all the other guns you are going to try to carry but eventually leave at the house.
I shoot everything better than a J-frame 38/357 and carry (concealed) a G19/17/34 or 1911 on a daily basis. Never even been tempted to leave home without one.
I love the J-Frame. I had several at one time. But it just doesn't conceal like a Ruger LCP or something. In the summer out here in the desert you just don't wear the extra clothing you do in other parts of the country. And people built like me just can't conceal larger handguns very well to begin with.
I think Yoni might know something about concealing a full-size handgun in extremely hot environments. :jester:
You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
Handguns are weak and inefficient weapons. If you can grab a rifle or a shotgun to return fire.
grizzlyblake
07-27-18, 19:15
Yeah I suck with a J frame. I tried to shoot IDPA one time with one and it was ridiculous. I carry a G19 AIWB daily and I'm only 5'6", 150lb.
I realize the chances of me ever having to shoot someone (I'm just a civilian) are ridiculously small, but within that small chance it's 99.9% likely going to be the pistol I'm carrying somewhere or that I grab off the nightstand. Inside those odds it's likely that I'd be shooting one handed while trying to do something with the other. In that situation a J frame is essentially worthless to me.
Running and shooting one handed blows, but it blows less for me with a G19.
So I guess my contribution to the thread is that, for a civilian - while talking about, shooting, and sharing photos of rifles is fun, the odds are like 95%/5% in the favor of using a daily carried pistol to shoot someone.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-28-18, 00:45
I carry pretty much anytime I am awake where I’m not naked or asleep. If I’m sitting in my recliner I have my jframe in my pocket. If I’m making a quick trip out to my car or to grab an amazon box of my porch, I’m carrying. If I am getting up from dinner to use the bathroom I’m carrying. Because of my job I can carry at work. Pocket revolvers allow this to be done discreetly, safely and comfortably which allows me to be consistent. I’m not saying you can’t or don’t do this Glock 19s or even chopped glocks like the 26/27, but it is extremely difficult. I have lots of gun friends who say they carry but I spot them leaving their guns behind because of the hassle of concealing, fiddling with holsters, etc. That being said, if you are really dedicated enough to wear your Glock 17 to the dinner table and every time you are walking around clothed then yes, I don’t care who you are you will be better off with a combat auto loader. Still, I don’t care how good you are with it, you have to really have it.
Or we could ask experts that actually study this stuff. Is there any case studies that show a greater killing capacity for FMJ?
Or we could ask all those buried in the ground before hollow points became mainstream if they'd be deader if a hollow point was used.
The only thing that may stop immediately is penetration to vitals. A shot with a hollow point to the gut with a fancy hollow point will kill you later after you bleed out but a shot with a solid bullet to a vital will kill you now in most cases.
A slightly bigger hole to non-vitals isn't a stopper. We shoot to stop immediately. That's hits to vitals. The FBI Ballistics Manual has admitted as such. They are the experts who started this.
A shot with a hollow point to the gut with a fancy hollow point will kill you later after you bleed out but a shot with a solid bullet to a vital will kill you now in most cases.
.
Nope. Only brain and spine damage. Everything else is psychological or many long seconds / minutes until the muscles/brain have been starved of blood.
1. Get a J-frame and carry it
2. Buy all the other guns you are going to try to carry but eventually leave at the house.
Ruger LCR. Superior to the J-frame in every way. Worth the extra money.
#2 is very true!
For its size, capacity, reliability, accuracy and ease of maintenance, the Glock 19 is still king of the hill. Others come and go, bringing a better trigger, appearance, grip angle but for 99.99% of us and our needs...the plain Jane Glock 19 will completely fill our needs.
In a hot place like Florida, a 30+ ounce, fat pistol gets tiresome. After about a decade of pushing through it my g19 is a car / house pistol.
Nope. Only brain and spine damage. Everything else is psychological or many long seconds / minutes until the muscles/brain have been starved of blood.
And other vitals. Some more priority than others. A heart for example. Some can fight with an exploded heart for a minute or 2 and some can't. But my point is whether the bullet is a fancy hollow point or a solid hard cast or fmj, a shot to those vitals is the only thing that will stop a threat.
It doesn't matter if the bullet is .355 or .586. Whatever the diameter of the bullet, it has to reach the vital. Ballistics gel doesn't mimick actual tissue and trauma surgeons can't tell where the bullet was .355 or .687 in diameter if the bullet isn't recovered. The human body is very elastic and the wound channels close up on themselves.
grizzlyblake
07-28-18, 08:06
I carry pretty much anytime I am awake where I’m not naked or asleep. If I’m sitting in my recliner I have my jframe in my pocket. If I’m making a quick trip out to my car or to grab an amazon box of my porch, I’m carrying. If I am getting up from dinner to use the bathroom I’m carrying. Because of my job I can carry at work. Pocket revolvers allow this to be done discreetly, safely and comfortably which allows me to be consistent. I’m not saying you can’t or don’t do this Glock 19s or even chopped glocks like the 26/27, but it is extremely difficult. I have lots of gun friends who say they carry but I spot them leaving their guns behind because of the hassle of concealing, fiddling with holsters, etc. That being said, if you are really dedicated enough to wear your Glock 17 to the dinner table and every time you are walking around clothed then yes, I don’t care who you are you will be better off with a combat auto loader. Still, I don’t care how good you are with it, you have to really have it.
Have you tried a G43? My wife has one with a nice kydex AIWB holster and I steal it occasionally when we are going somewhere together (walk around the neighborhood, etc.) and it carries as well as the J frame minus pocket carry. I can carry it in the waist band of gym shorts with a draw string as long as I'm not running. The flatter profile actually hides better than a J frame for me. Of course it's 100x more shootable to me than any snub.
PatrioticDisorder
07-28-18, 08:24
I carry pretty much anytime I am awake where I’m not naked or asleep. If I’m sitting in my recliner I have my jframe in my pocket. If I’m making a quick trip out to my car or to grab an amazon box of my porch, I’m carrying. If I am getting up from dinner to use the bathroom I’m carrying. Because of my job I can carry at work. Pocket revolvers allow this to be done discreetly, safely and comfortably which allows me to be consistent. I’m not saying you can’t or don’t do this Glock 19s or even chopped glocks like the 26/27, but it is extremely difficult. I have lots of gun friends who say they carry but I spot them leaving their guns behind because of the hassle of concealing, fiddling with holsters, etc. That being said, if you are really dedicated enough to wear your Glock 17 to the dinner table and every time you are walking around clothed then yes, I don’t care who you are you will be better off with a combat auto loader. Still, I don’t care how good you are with it, you have to really have it.
This reminded me of an LEO encounter I has with Florida FWC (Fish and Wildlife Conservation) while riding the wave runner near keeywadin several months ago. I generally do not carry when on the wave runner and while I was being stopped for a safety check, one of the officers happened to noticed my FL CWFL and of course asked if I was carrying and I told him I left it in the truck and he responded back telling me it’s useless in the truck. That conversation had me thinking that perhaps I’ve become too complacent in regards to carry. It has me thinking maybe I should buy a beater G43 to put in some thunderwear for when I’m riding and in on the water.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-28-18, 08:47
Ruger LCR. Superior to the J-frame in every way. Worth the extra money.
I’ve been caring J frames since way before the LCR came out. I’ve looked at them and they seem a little bigger in the pocket but honestly I just say “J frame” as a generic for pocket revolver anyway. If they still made the aluminum colt cobra I would consider it too.
The title of this thread sort of encourages hard stands. If you can carry a G43 or Shield as consistently there is no reason that can’t be your j-frame. And I guess if you are Shaq sized maybe you can carry a G19 in your sweat pants pockets while laying on the couch watching Netflix.
And other vitals. Some more priority than others. A heart for example. Some can fight with an exploded heart for a minute or 2 and some can't. But my point is whether the bullet is a fancy hollow point or a solid hard cast or fmj, a shot to those vitals is the only thing that will stop a threat.
It doesn't matter if the bullet is .355 or .586. Whatever the diameter of the bullet, it has to reach the vital. Ballistics gel doesn't mimick actual tissue and trauma surgeons can't tell where the bullet was .355 or .687 in diameter if the bullet isn't recovered. The human body is very elastic and the wound channels close up on themselves.
Trauma surgeons are not necessarily terminal ballistic experts. HPs deflect less, and good ones retain more weight theough barriers. Expanded hollow points cause more rapid blood loss which typically ends the threat sooner.
Bullet diameter is much less important than if it expands or not. This belongs in the terminal ballistics forum, but I thought we already covered all this.
And yes, ballistics gel is not a simulant, nor is it supposed to be looked at as such. Its a testing medium with a correlation, assuming calibrated and properly prepared/handled gel.
Edit: apparently it is a simulant for muscle.
The Beretta 418 was described as James Bond’s favorite gun in the original novels. However, the film industry quickly changed Bond’s weapon of choice because a gun expert claimed it was a “lady’s gun.”
In the past, Russian cosmonauts would bring their pistols into space in the event that they landed in unknown territory and were faced with hostile animals. Believe it or not, guns are actually still operable in outer space.
When you are required to carry a Hi Power and 2 spare mags every second you were awake and then add a long gun to the mix most of the time. A Poly framed Glock or CZ feels like I don't have a pistol on.
Trauma surgeons are not necessarily terminal ballistic experts. HPs deflect less, and good ones retain more weight theough barriers. Expanded hollow points cause more rapid blood loss which typically ends the threat sooner.
Bullet diameter is much less important than if it expands or not. This belongs in the terminal ballistics forum, but I thought we already covered all this.
And yes, ballistics gel is not a simulant, nor is it supposed to be looked at as such. Its a testing medium with a correlation, assuming calibrated and properly prepared/handled gel.
Look up Dr Fackler.
MountainRaven
07-28-18, 23:22
Look up Dr Fackler.
Look up Dr Gary Roberts.
Look up Dr Gary Roberts.
I have. He also stresses penetration to vitals.
Guns are like shoes. What fits one person isn't necessarily the best choice for everyone. The answer isn't always "Get a G19".
m1a_scoutguy
07-29-18, 10:52
Guns are like shoes. What fits one person isn't necessarily the best choice for everyone. The answer isn't always "Get a G19".
Well said,as awesome as the G19 is and considering it fits and works for many people its not always the answer. I admit I am a CZ guy now but always wanted a G19 and acquired one in a trade over the Winter and was excited about it. I had it about a month & put about 4/500 rds through it,it ran great, accurate enough etc. But it just didn't feel/fit that good anymore compared to my CZs so I sent it down the road ! In hind site yea I should of kept it cuz I have tons of mags, parts, holsters etc so will probably grab another "Glock" someday so time will tell. I did handle a 19X the other day and it seemed just about right, so maybe down the road one will come my way. So with that said I have multiple CZs from the Shadow 2 down to my PO-7 with PO1s SP-01s and a few in between but I find myself always leaning towards the PO-7 ! It shoots great, feels good in my hand and just runs with 0 issues. The most important thing is the gun you have on you is the gun that can save your life ! Find one that fits/shoots/feels the way ya like and then Eat/Sleep/Train/Repeat,carry it and don't think about it.
I have. He also stresses penetration to vitals.
Yes, and he never advocates using FMJ. He has a list of “approved” ammo. No fmj is on the list for 9, 40, or 45.
"If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not loadin, you should be movin', if you're not movin', someone's gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."
Yes, and he never advocates using FMJ. He has a list of “approved” ammo. No fmj is on the list for 9, 40, or 45.
He doesn't because over penetration is a concern to him. Yet the FBI Ballistics Manual and shootings prior to the 1980's say otherwise in regards to over penetration.
A shot to a vital with any pistol bullet of similar caliber will do the same job whether it's .355 in diameter or .687. It has to get there though and a solid bullet will do that no matter what the angle it enters the body or whatever common hard barrier it has to go through. It'll also have sufficient penetration if the velocity drops at distance since it doesn't have to expand to a stop or if it slows down after going through a barrier.
I'm thinking in this case caliber and penetration probably took the fight right out of him.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/850/41918778690_1740c200d5_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26SdGtC)38009411_2118467518186070_7193411523140648960_o (https://flic.kr/p/26SdGtC) by Michael Starmer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156641484@N07/), on Flickr
He doesn't because over penetration is a concern to him. Yet the FBI Ballistics Manual and shootings prior to the 1980's say otherwise in regards to over penetration.
A shot to a vital with any pistol bullet of similar caliber will do the same job whether it's .355 in diameter or .687. It has to get there though and a solid bullet will do that no matter what the angle it enters the body or whatever common hard barrier it has to go through. It'll also have sufficient penetration if the velocity drops at distance since it doesn't have to expand to a stop or if it slows down after going through a barrier.
If you stick to rounds on the list, the lack of performance at distance and post barriers is not true. They offer deep penetration after barrier penetration. Through certain barriers, bonded hp penetrate more and deflect less.
Overpenetration is not the reason hp is better, its consistent path and retained weight, through barriers.
Additionally, expanded hp crush more tissue leading to faster blood loss and subsequently faster incapacitation. Are they magical? No, but they tip the odds in your favor.
The information is there, here is one thread which Docgkr himself participates in.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18515-Let-s-talk-about-handgun-FMJ-effectiveness/page4
This is a derail, so Im out. i suggest you start a new thread in the term ballistics forum and we can discuss more in depth.
The Beretta 418 was described as James Bond’s favorite gun in the original novels. However, the film industry quickly changed Bond’s weapon of choice because a gun expert claimed it was a “lady’s gun.”
Not defending the movies, because they stray far, very far, from the novels.
But Ian Fleming took away Bond's Beretta in the novels, too. Unlike in the movie, Bond is then given TWO guns. He is given the PPK in 7.65mm / .32 acp and a S&W Airweight .38 special. In the novel Dr. No, Bond brings the .38 and uses it plenty. He ends up losing it.
Out of the 13 original Fleming novels, Bond doesn't shoot at anyone with the PPK until book 11. Bond thinks he hit him, (5 shots fired total) but the guy gets away and there is no confirmation of a hit.
Now there is an argument that he may have used it in book 10, but I don't think so. The book is told by someone else's perspective and she doesn't know anything about guns. Bond may or may not be wearing a gun when the trouble starts. But he goes back to his car to get one, saying something about "getting the artillery" or similar. So he probably was not wearing one or if he was, wanted to grab his other one, too.
The only details given are that it's an auto, he had at least two extra mags, he gets it out of his suitcase in his car, and it makes a "deep roar" or something like that. Since Bond has a Colt "long barrel" .45 in several of the books and keeps it in his car, it stands to reason that's what he has, a 1911, not the PPK.
He doesn't shoot the PPK in book 12 either because he's in Japan and can't bring a gun with him. I haven't read book 13 yet so I dunno about that one, yet. ;)
So while the movies talk up the PPK, in the books, he uses the Beretta .25 the most, an issued .38, several .38's he takes off bad guys, 1911's a couple times, a Savage 99 (twice I think), a submachine gun, and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting. But out of 13 books, he only fires a PPK at someone in book 10 (possibly, but was probably a 1911. He does a lot of missing in difficult circumstances but likely hits a driver through a windshield, causing a crash/drowning), Book 11 (5 shots to no effect), and I think 13 but like I said, haven't read it yet.
If you stick to rounds on the list, the lack of performance at distance and post barriers is not true. They offer deep penetration after barrier penetration. Through certain barriers, bonded hp penetrate more and deflect less.
Overpenetration is not the reason hp is better, its consistent path and retained weight, through barriers.
Additionally, expanded hp crush more tissue leading to faster blood loss and subsequently faster incapacitation. Are they magical? No, but they tip the odds in your favor.
The information is there, here is one thread which Docgkr himself participates in.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18515-Let-s-talk-about-handgun-FMJ-effectiveness/page4
This is a derail, so Im out. i suggest you start a new thread in the term ballistics forum and we can discuss more in depth.
Some of those bullets barely make 13 inches and were tested with duty sized barrels. They perform a lot different from 3 inch CCW barrels. Now add a barrier between them and or shoot them from more than 10 ft.
To put things into perspective, the Winchester Silvertip that failed the FBI penetrates 10 to 11 inches. 12 to 13 inches isn't much better.
PatrioticDisorder
07-30-18, 11:11
Some of those bullets barely make 13 inches and were tested with duty sized barrels. They perform a lot different from 3 inch CCW barrels. Now add a barrier between them and or shoot them from more than 10 ft.
To put things into perspective, the Winchester Silvertip that failed the FBI penetrates 10 to 11 inches. 12 to 13 inches isn't much better.
I was under the impression that shorter pistol barrel generally means deeper penetration due to slower and slightly less expansion?
sundance435
07-30-18, 11:45
I was under the impression that shorter pistol barrel generally means deeper penetration due to slower and slightly less expansion?
With a heavier weight for a given caliber, especially 9mm, maybe, but that's not a given, but that is why I carry 147gr in all of my 9's, regardless of barrel length. A 115gr out of a short barrel will probably not penetrate any deeper than from a 4" or longer.
Some of those bullets barely make 13 inches and were tested with duty sized barrels. They perform a lot different from 3 inch CCW barrels. Now add a barrier between them and or shoot them from more than 10 ft.
To put things into perspective, the Winchester Silvertip that failed the FBI penetrates 10 to 11 inches. 12 to 13 inches isn't much better.
How do they perform through the heavy clothing test, autoglass, and sheet metal test? Compare silvertip through autoglass to hst or golddot.
The ones I found numbers for penetrated about 15” in 4ld test. Are you guessing what hapens after a barrier? With good loads, they tend to penetrate more, not less. You cannot expect silvertip, an unbonded hp to act the same as hst, which is a bonded hp with different design.
Relevant thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?29401-9mm-fmj-and-Doc-s-findings
1. The average person who actually conceals a pistol every day for defensive can NOT put 5 rds into 5 inches at 5 yds in 5 seconds from a cold start at the range. To say nothing of doing the same at 25 yds. (Doesn't make it useless of course)
2. The Russian PM Makarov pistol is generally more reliable than the Amerian Colt 1911a1.
3. You can shoot a BG once or 20 times with any service caliber, but if there is no major nervous system damage, he can still fight a while if he chooses to.
1. The average license holder fires 50 rounds every four years to re-qualify, and that's it.
2. How do we know? How could anybody ever know such a thing?
3. 98% of gunners violently reject this painful truth.
What life has taught me, when it comes to pistols is they all suck. Rifles have stopping power. 9mm subguns are easier to shoot accurately than a 9mm pistol.
Pistols need to be 9mm or bigger, and they need to provide me with good economics of action. What does this mean that they don't run out of bullets in less than 10 rounds and the more rounds the better. Because when you are face to face with a guy bent on killing you with an edged weapon the worse thing that can happen is you get 9 good hits, that have killed the guy, but he is still in the fight and good luck doing a reload when someone is trying to stab you or hack you to death.
So if my pistol has a 15 round or better mag, that makes me happy.
Ammo today I carry hollowpoint, but in the past was forced to carry 9mm ball. We used very hot 9mm ball to punch through cars better.
Shot placement matters more to your ability to go home than if you are using 9mm ball or the latest wonder hollowpoint.
Before anyone pipes up and argues I am pushing ball over hollowpoint I am not. I am just sharing what life has taught me and others .
What life has taught me, when it comes to pistols is they all suck. Rifles have stopping power. 9mm subguns are easier to shoot accurately than a 9mm pistol.
Pistols need to be 9mm or bigger, and they need to provide me with good economics of action. What does this mean that they don't run out of bullets in less than 10 rounds and the more rounds the better. Because when you are face to face with a guy bent on killing you with an edged weapon the worse thing that can happen is you get 9 good hits, that have killed the guy, but he is still in the fight and good luck doing a reload when someone is trying to stab you or hack you to death.
So if my pistol has a 15 round or better mag, that makes me happy.
Ammo today I carry hollowpoint, but in the past was forced to carry 9mm ball. We used very hot 9mm ball to punch through cars better.
Shot placement matters more to your ability to go home than if you are using 9mm ball or the latest wonder hollowpoint.
Before anyone pipes up and argues I am pushing ball over hollowpoint I am not. I am just sharing what life has taught me and others .
SOLID.
2. How do we know? How could anybody ever know such a thing?
That's what I've seen. My own, friends and family and strangers at the range.
The makarov's run. 1911's, while they can be reliable, aren't generally as much as the Makarov.
Yoni,
If you can only carry a pistol, and a 10 - shot 9mm is too big and heavy for comfort and/or concealment all day, what do you do?
- Suffer with it / hope nobody notices your gun?
- Carry a smaller, lighter gun in a caliber weaker than 9x19?
- Carry smaller, lighter gun that is 9x19 or more but holds fewer rounds?
- Don't carry a gun or carry it off-body?
I have had my share of gunfights, so I think I could qualify in the category of gunfighter.
My CZ P07, is not ugly! It is getting some beautiful wear in marks from shooting and carrying it every day, but she is still sexy as can be.
I've never been in a gun fight, so I'm definitely not a gunfighter. But I think my P07 is beautiful too.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/20170610_194909.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yDaXong.jpg
Glock is a biker chick that can run you hard all night long, finish you call you a punk ass bitch cause you can't keep up. But don't take her home to meet your mama
You have a way with words.
Number 41 (not sure what the real number is): 95% of GUN OWNERS shoot less than a box of ammo a year. I can safely say that 1 or 2% of GUN OWNERS have never shot their gun at all. (Estimates are mine)
Number 42: Professionally trained shooters that actually carry their guns all the time (like Greg Bell) and regularly practices constitute less than 1% of gun owners.
The more you move away from the OE platform the more IG likes you get . . . . #justsayin
Number 41 (not sure what the real number is): 95% of GUN OWNERS shoot less than a box of ammo a year. I can safely say that 1 or 2% of GUN OWNERS have never shot their gun at all. (Estimates are mine)
Number 42: Professionally trained shooters that actually carry their guns all the time (like Greg Bell) and regularly practices constitute less than 1% of gun owners.
Though probably 99% of the gun owners on this website are regular shooters.
Yoni,
If you can only carry a pistol, and a 10 - shot 9mm is too big and heavy for comfort and/or concealment all day, what do you do?
- Suffer with it / hope nobody notices your gun?
- Carry a smaller, lighter gun in a caliber weaker than 9x19?
- Carry smaller, lighter gun that is 9x19 or more but holds fewer rounds?
- Don't carry a gun or carry it off-body?
I am not a huge guy 5'11" 235 mostly muscle but with a little fat due to a long recovery from a motorcycle accident.
I can carry a Hi Power, 1911, CZ P09 etc and have no problems with being made or it being too much pistol for me to carry. I carry the same pistols if I am wearing shorts in the summer or long pants.
I don't want to pick on you, but how is it possible that you can't carry a fighting pistol in comfort. I carry IWB and will be honest a lot of days with the CZ I don't even wear a holster. I wear it from leaving the house to when I come back.
I was in New York city and I carried walking through Time Square and watched NYPD officers both plane clothes and uniform patrolling the area. NYPD is anti gun and loves to arrest people for gun violations. I never got stopped which means I wasn't made. I guess when you learn to carry a pistol where getting made will result in your getting butchered, you learn what works.
I will tell you carrying a fighting pistol is a learning process and it is something you have to get used to. Do anything new and it will feel strange for a period of time. Trying growing or shaving off your beard and see how long it takes to adapt. About the same time it will take to learn to be comfortable carrying a fighting pistol.
I am not a huge guy 5'11" 235 mostly muscle but with a little fat due to a long recovery from a motorcycle accident.
I can carry a Hi Power, 1911, CZ P09 etc and have no problems with being made or it being too much pistol for me to carry. I carry the same pistols if I am wearing shorts in the summer or long pants.
I don't want to pick on you, but how is it possible that you can't carry a fighting pistol in comfort. I carry IWB and will be honest a lot of days with the CZ I don't even wear a holster. I wear it from leaving the house to when I come back.
I was in New York city and I carried walking through Time Square and watched NYPD officers both plane clothes and uniform patrolling the area. NYPD is anti gun and loves to arrest people for gun violations. I never got stopped which means I wasn't made. I guess when you learn to carry a pistol where getting made will result in your getting butchered, you learn what works.
I will tell you carrying a fighting pistol is a learning process and it is something you have to get used to. Do anything new and it will feel strange for a period of time. Trying growing or shaving off your beard and see how long it takes to adapt. About the same time it will take to learn to be comfortable carrying a fighting pistol.
Everything good takes at least a bit of work. In this case choice of clothes and what your definition of comfort is... It's never comfortable at first and you need to work at it to find what works for you.
Dennis.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
How do they perform through the heavy clothing test, autoglass, and sheet metal test? Compare silvertip through autoglass to hst or golddot.
The ones I found numbers for penetrated about 15” in 4ld test. Are you guessing what hapens after a barrier? With good loads, they tend to penetrate more, not less. You cannot expect silvertip, an unbonded hp to act the same as hst, which is a bonded hp with different design.
Relevant thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?29401-9mm-fmj-and-Doc-s-findings
I don't understand your post. I'm not advocating Winchester Silvertips or any other hollow point. I advocate solid bullets that don't expand.
I am not a huge guy 5'11" 235 mostly muscle but with a little fat due to a long recovery from a motorcycle accident.
I can carry a Hi Power, 1911, CZ P09 etc and have no problems with being made or it being too much pistol for me to carry. I carry the same pistols if I am wearing shorts in the summer or long pants.
Being reasonably fit helps a great deal. I am 5'10", 245ish (snug 38" waist), and it is noticeable harder to carry/conceal my Glock 19 than it was when I was an athletic 190lbs (loose 34" waist). This is with a Sidearmor kydex IWB carried behind my hip.
When I was in my 20s and 150lbs, I could hide a 1911 under a t-shirt IWB with no holster.
Andy
P.S. Alas, my weight is not mostly muscle.
sundance435
08-02-18, 06:51
Being reasonably fit helps a great deal. I am 5'10", 245ish (snug 38" waist), and it is noticeable harder to carry/conceal my Glock 19 than it was when I was an athletic 190lbs (loose 34" waist).
When I was in my 20s and 150lbs, I could hide a 1911 under a t-shirt IWB with no holster.
Andy
P.S. Alas, my weight is not mostly muscle.
It really makes a huge difference. Just dropping 10-15 pounds, I've noticed it's a lot easier for me to conceal larger guns, some of them even OWB.
Just be honest - carrying a 'fighting pistol' to use Yoni's term, is (1) a learning process and (2) something you just have to commit to doing.
Even when it take the extra effort, even when it's 'uncomfortable'.
Not everyone wants to do that.
Gunnar da Wolf
08-02-18, 10:41
Number 41 (not sure what the real number is): 95% of GUN OWNERS shoot less than a box of ammo a year. I can safely say that 1 or 2% of GUN OWNERS have never shot their gun at all. (Estimates are mine.
After being an LEO and teaching some CCW classes I bet your “1 or 2%” is way low. There are a lot of people out there who were given or inherited a gun and some “bullets” but never fired the first round. There are a depressing number who purchased a gun and ammo then put them in a drawer without shooting, cleaning or training.
Even people who carry a gun for a living sometimes only shoot once a year, and that's only for qualifications. Surprising how many actually pass, not that it's usually a hard standard.
I am not a huge guy 5'11" 235 mostly muscle but with a little fat due to a long recovery from a motorcycle accident.
I can carry a Hi Power, 1911, CZ P09 etc and have no problems with being made or it being too much pistol for me to carry. I carry the same pistols if I am wearing shorts in the summer or long pants.
I don't want to pick on you, but how is it possible that you can't carry a fighting pistol in comfort. I
I will tell you carrying a fighting pistol is a learning process and it is something you have to get used to. Do anything new and it will feel strange for a period of time. Trying growing or shaving off your beard and see how long it takes to adapt. About the same time it will take to learn to be comfortable carrying a fighting pistol.
Thanks.
I carried smaller guns (snub revolvers, glock 27, Makarov) for years before my Glock 19. I carried the G19 holstered ISWB for almost ten years. And a few other guns for much shorter periods. (Glock 20 for one)
But I live in Florida and it's brutally humid and hot here. It got old. Got tired of the weight and thickness. So it's not that I cant. It's just too uncomfortable. I use quality holsters and belts and carry behind the hip. But it got tiresome. I decided lighter, thinner guns work better for me.
I do however, still carry two guns. A belt gun and another in a pocket. I did when I carried the G19, too. In addition, one or two reloads for the belt gun and usually one for the pocket gun.
MountainRaven
08-02-18, 12:59
https://youtu.be/hbehsFbv6XA?t=1m25s
(Salient bit starts at 1m25s.)
https://youtu.be/hbehsFbv6XA?t=1m25s
(Salient bit starts at 1m25s.)
While he has provided great training to good guys with guns over the years;
He is one of the most painfull instructors to listen to. His delivery, word choice, nearly all of it, is just terrible.
He has forgotten a small gun is better than no gun. And a small BUG is better than no BUG.
I don't consider my 2nd (smaller) gun a BUG. It's just another choice. It might get drawn first depending on the scenario.
If he wants to carry two 5 inch 1911's that's his choice, his back, his life. Not sure why he has to belittle everyone who doesnt. Unless he's in the buisness of selling guns and holsters.
Like any instructor you can take some good from him and ditch the rest if it doesn't work or apply to you. I think he's fun to listen to but ymmv based on the topic. I took a two day lecture from Massad Ayoob back in I think 91' and he was "colorful" as well. They're still selling a product and running a business just like everyone. I agree you don't need a 10K Jason Burton custom to keep you alive, and an LCP is better than a pocket full of lint.
And other vitals. Some more priority than others. A heart for example. Some can fight with an exploded heart for a minute or 2 and some can't. But my point is whether the bullet is a fancy hollow point or a solid hard cast or fmj, a shot to those vitals is the only thing that will stop a threat.
It doesn't matter if the bullet is .355 or .586. Whatever the diameter of the bullet, it has to reach the vital. Ballistics gel doesn't mimick actual tissue and trauma surgeons can't tell where the bullet was .355 or .687 in diameter if the bullet isn't recovered. The human body is very elastic and the wound channels close up on themselves.
Indeed. And they can't tell whether it was a $2 Critical Defense Premium Law Enforcement Hollow Point or a white-box FMJ. Bullets are bullets to a ER doctor or a ME. These are the people that actually examine shot bodies, not "ballistics experts" and internet speculators.
This is why I'm one of the one percent (?) of pistol-packers on m4carbine that carries FMJ in his everyday carry 9mm. Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain to be exact. And I carry in the Big City (and not Dinkytown) where the possibility that I'll actually have to use them is not so remote.
Bullets have to penetrate to get the job done. They not only have to penetrate to the vitals, but they have to penetrate cars, glass, any kind of objects.
Nobody can point to an incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to expand. There are plenty of examples of incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to penetrate.
Notice hunters; they don't drool over the latest trick bullet load. No. They use the same jacketed soft point or solid cast bullets that they know have worked forever. Hunters know that if you don't penetrate to the vitals, game is wounded, runs off to bleed to death somewhere far away, or die of infection. Woodsmen seeking protection from bears, etc. ain't shooting SXT or Critical Defense or those weird bullets that look like little tips for your screwdriver handle. They're shooting Buffalo Bore or Corbon or Underwood heavy cast or heavy solid jacketed bullets.
Make mine FMJ.
Rifleman_04
08-02-18, 22:30
Make mine FMJ.
Hopefully that’s not a hard lesson one day.
Hopefully that’s not a hard lesson one day.
I hope not too. But the point is, the pros can't tell the difference. If JHP or trick bullets did radically different things to people, the pros (MEs and ER docs) would notice. If .45 ACP was somehow qualitatively superior to 9mm, the results could be observed. They aren't.
For every example, there's a counter-example. In the Miami FBI shootout, SA Dove was shooting 115 grain Silvertips. His bullet went through Platt's arm, into the chest and expanded excellently. Trouble was, it stopped an inch from Platt's heart. Instead of croaking in 10 seconds, Platt lived on for four minutes, killing two and wounding five.
If Dove had fired a FMJ, it would have been over. Maybe.
I've seen a decent number of handgun bullets that have killed people. Betcha 99% of the members of this forum never have. JHPs don't look anything like the lead-and-copper flowers in the ads, or the mushrooms in gelatin tests. Some of them look pristine, with no upset whatsoever. Usually they look like they were thrown out of a car onto rough concrete: mangled noses without mushrooming, stripped jackets, fragmented jackets. And those are the ones that are recovered. Most pass right on through, mooting any arguments about safety of bystanders on the other side. We don't know what those look like, but we do know that almost always, the exit hole is scarcely larger than the entrance, and sometimes close examination is necessary to tell them apart.
That's the real world of the medical examiner and the emergency room. I think shooters resist admitting this, because it takes away from their sense of equipment-fired confidence, and puts the burden virtually 100% on the shooter to get the job done and save his own life.
Thanks.
I carried smaller guns (snub revolvers, glock 27, Makarov) for years before my Glock 19. I carried the G19 holstered ISWB for almost ten years. And a few other guns for much shorter periods. (Glock 20 for one)
But I live in Florida and it's brutally humid and hot here. It got old. Got tired of the weight and thickness. So it's not that I cant. It's just too uncomfortable. I use quality holsters and belts and carry behind the hip. But it got tiresome. I decided lighter, thinner guns work better for me.
I do however, still carry two guns. A belt gun and another in a pocket. I did when I carried the G19, too. In addition, one or two reloads for the belt gun and usually one for the pocket gun.
I am going to shock everyone here. For in my humble opinion, the Glock 19 wasn't the issue every thing else was. When I am not working, I carry 1 pistol on me and a knife. This is in the USA.
Unless I am going to a bad part of town, then I will add more to what I carry. But where I live when I am running around going to the store etc. 1 pistol P07, 1 knife. Don't see the need for more. You guys amaze me all the time with how much you are willing to carry. But in 99% of the USA, I don't see the need.
Indeed. And they can't tell whether it was a $2 Critical Defense Premium Law Enforcement Hollow Point or a white-box FMJ. Bullets are bullets to a ER doctor or a ME. These are the people that actually examine shot bodies, not "ballistics experts" and internet speculators.
This is why I'm one of the one percent (?) of pistol-packers on m4carbine that carries FMJ in his everyday carry 9mm. Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain to be exact. And I carry in the Big City (and not Dinkytown) where the possibility that I'll actually have to use them is not so remote.
Bullets have to penetrate to get the job done. They not only have to penetrate to the vitals, but they have to penetrate cars, glass, any kind of objects.
Nobody can point to an incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to expand. There are plenty of examples of incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to penetrate.
Notice hunters; they don't drool over the latest trick bullet load. No. They use the same jacketed soft point or solid cast bullets that they know have worked forever. Hunters know that if you don't penetrate to the vitals, game is wounded, runs off to bleed to death somewhere far away, or die of infection. Woodsmen seeking protection from bears, etc. ain't shooting SXT or Critical Defense or those weird bullets that look like little tips for your screwdriver handle. They're shooting Buffalo Bore or Corbon or Underwood heavy cast or heavy solid jacketed bullets.
Make mine FMJ.
You must not spend much time on hunting forums. I've never come across anyone that promotes FMJ's over expanding bullets until you start talking about extremely large calibers for hunting cape buffalo and elephants. Even then, controlled expansion bullets are heavily favored by PH's guiding buffalo
My kids started hunting at 8. They could handle a .223 just fine and shot caribou with dramatic one shot DRT shots using Barnes TSX bullets. I have watched caribou absord a dozen FMJ rounds from a .223. My son moved on quickly, but my daughters are small in stature. They have only advanced to a 7-08. Once again TSX bullets are the choice. They expand and dump ALL their energy into the animal. I don't even know if they make a 7mm solid in a factory loading, simply because they don't work all that well.
For big bears, I have shot one bear with 7.62 FMJ in an emergency situation. He was hit 12 times. Fatal shots were 5 times through the lungs, one through the heart and one through the liver. He made it 400 yds before he expired. His vital organs were hardly damaged, just holes poke through them. The next season I shot one with a 30-06 using a 200 grain partition. That bear died with an exploded heart and a big hole through the lower lungs. He was DRT.
I find it completely unethical to be using solids on any time of big game hunting.
I hope not too. But the point is, the pros can't tell the difference. If JHP or trick bullets did radically different things to people, the pros (MEs and ER docs) would notice. If .45 ACP was somehow qualitatively superior to 9mm, the results could be observed. They aren't.
For every example, there's a counter-example. In the Miami FBI shootout, SA Dove was shooting 115 grain Silvertips. His bullet went through Platt's arm, into the chest and expanded excellently. Trouble was, it stopped an inch from Platt's heart. Instead of croaking in 10 seconds, Platt lived on for four minutes, killing two and wounding five.
If Dove had fired a FMJ, it would have been over. Maybe.
I've seen a decent number of handgun bullets that have killed people. Betcha 99% of the members of this forum never have. JHPs don't look anything like the lead-and-copper flowers in the ads, or the mushrooms in gelatin tests. Some of them look pristine, with no upset whatsoever. Usually they look like they were thrown out of a car onto rough concrete: mangled noses without mushrooming, stripped jackets, fragmented jackets. And those are the ones that are recovered. Most pass right on through, mooting any arguments about safety of bystanders on the other side. We don't know what those look like, but we do know that almost always, the exit hole is scarcely larger than the entrance, and sometimes close examination is necessary to tell them apart.
That's the real world of the medical examiner and the emergency room. I think shooters resist admitting this, because it takes away from their sense of equipment-fired confidence, and puts the burden virtually 100% on the shooter to get the job done and save his own life.
Can you provide support of your theory that FMJ penetrates barriers better than bonded HP? FBI windshield and sheet metal tests would be if interest.
Silvertips suck, especially through autoglass.
In your example, what jhp, what barriers, what in the body, did it go through? What round from what gun from what distance?
Notice hunters; they don't drool over the latest trick bullet load. No. They use the same jacketed soft point or solid cast bullets that they know have worked forever. Hunters know that if you don't penetrate to the vitals, game is wounded, runs off to bleed to death somewhere far away, or die of infection. Woodsmen seeking protection from bears, etc. ain't shooting SXT or Critical Defense or those weird bullets that look like little tips for your screwdriver handle. They're shooting Buffalo Bore or Corbon or Underwood heavy cast or heavy solid jacketed bullets.
Right, deep penetrating, expanding loads. The same stuff that experts suggest using. Solid cast expand/flatten.
2. Big game is not humans.
3. hunting is not self defense.
Doc Safari
08-03-18, 08:49
Indeed. And they can't tell whether it was a $2 Critical Defense Premium Law Enforcement Hollow Point or a white-box FMJ. Bullets are bullets to a ER doctor or a ME. These are the people that actually examine shot bodies, not "ballistics experts" and internet speculators.
This is why I'm one of the one percent (?) of pistol-packers on m4carbine that carries FMJ in his everyday carry 9mm. Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain to be exact. And I carry in the Big City (and not Dinkytown) where the possibility that I'll actually have to use them is not so remote.
Bullets have to penetrate to get the job done. They not only have to penetrate to the vitals, but they have to penetrate cars, glass, any kind of objects.
Nobody can point to an incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to expand. There are plenty of examples of incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to penetrate.
Notice hunters; they don't drool over the latest trick bullet load. No. They use the same jacketed soft point or solid cast bullets that they know have worked forever. Hunters know that if you don't penetrate to the vitals, game is wounded, runs off to bleed to death somewhere far away, or die of infection. Woodsmen seeking protection from bears, etc. ain't shooting SXT or Critical Defense or those weird bullets that look like little tips for your screwdriver handle. They're shooting Buffalo Bore or Corbon or Underwood heavy cast or heavy solid jacketed bullets.
Make mine FMJ.
You make a good case, that's for sure. I was already convinced that in marginal calibers like .25, .32, and .380 you might as well go for penetration over expansion.
I don't think you can extend that to hunting with rifle rounds, though. Maybe the exception is .223 if you accept the notion that it tends to fragment even in FMJ rounds.
Lots of good stuff.
Might have been said already, but if your pistol needs a "break-in" period it wasn't built right to begin with.
I am going to shock everyone here. For in my humble opinion, the Glock 19 wasn't the issue every thing else was. When I am not working, I carry 1 pistol on me and a knife. This is in the USA.
Unless I am going to a bad part of town, then I will add more to what I carry. But where I live when I am running around going to the store etc. 1 pistol P07, 1 knife. Don't see the need for more. You guys amaze me all the time with how much you are willing to carry. But in 99% of the USA, I don't see the need.
The saying goes something like:
If you carry more gun than me, it's unnecessary, your paranoid, etc.
If you carry less gun than me your either naive or not taking your personal protection and that of your loved ones seriously enough.
It's hard to predict how the day will go. :)
You must not spend much time on hunting forums. I've never come across anyone that promotes FMJ's over expanding bullets until you start talking about extremely large calibers for hunting cape buffalo and elephants. Even then, controlled expansion bullets are heavily favored by PH's guiding buffalo
My kids started hunting at 8. They could handle a .223 just fine and shot caribou with dramatic one shot DRT shots using Barnes TSX bullets. I have watched caribou absord a dozen FMJ rounds from a .223. My son moved on quickly, but my daughters are small in stature. They have only advanced to a 7-08. Once again TSX bullets are the choice. They expand and dump ALL their energy into the animal. I don't even know if they make a 7mm solid in a factory loading, simply because they don't work all that well.
For big bears, I have shot one bear with 7.62 FMJ in an emergency situation. He was hit 12 times. Fatal shots were 5 times through the lungs, one through the heart and one through the liver. He made it 400 yds before he expired. His vital organs were hardly damaged, just holes poke through them. The next season I shot one with a 30-06 using a 200 grain partition. That bear died with an exploded heart and a big hole through the lower lungs. He was DRT.
I find it completely unethical to be using solids on any time of big game hunting.
The key word here is "hunting."
You're talking about rifles. Rifles cook up a much higher velocity than pistols. .223 FMJ at 3200 fps makes devastating wounds with much fragmentation, secondary projectiles, and some "hydrostatic" shock. Except for extremity hits, you'll see a tiny entrance hole, no exit, and big damage inside. Soft points in the larger calibers do excellent expansion at 2400 fps. The main problem here is not generating expansion, but the opposite: keeping the bullet together enough to ensure penetration and not damage too much meat or hide.
But we were considering handgun bullets for self-protection. They travel at a fraction of the speed of rifle bullets. They have the opposite problem, in that they are hard to make expand consistently. That's why bullets taken out of dead bodies and shooting survivors don't look like mushrooms. They usually don't expand at all or malform irregularly.
And one thing I notice when hunters talk about handguns: for anything that could chew up the hunter, they talk about heavy FMJ or hard-cast bullets, not light hollow points. When their lives are on the line, they want a bullet that penetrates to the vitals and gets the job done.
So do you, when accosted by the Jackboyz.
They have the opposite problem, in that they are hard to make expand consistently. That's why bullets taken out of dead bodies and shooting survivors don't look like mushrooms. They usually don't expand at all or malform irregularly.
You repeat this same statement a lot, and are essentially saying everyone who buys into ballistic gel tests and conventional thought about expanding bullets and wound ballistics is either being misled or doing the misleading.
Do you have any evidence supporting the idea that expanding pistol bullets don't work as intended and are really no more effective than FMJs in living tissue?
MountainRaven
08-06-18, 00:12
I'm still waiting for someone to post Dr. Roberts's recommended FMJ loads for 9mm, 40, and/or 45.
I don't think we can compare thin skinned humans that aren't covered in fur with very large animals that need lots of penetration to reach the vital part of the animal.
I have said many times that the selection of bullet is so far down the list of things that you must do to win a gun fight as to be irrelevant.
People that have never been to war or in gunfights, are insecure about how they will perform in such activities since they have never been in these situations. Which is why the best military and police units in the world, train, train and then train some more. So that the actions that will allow you to survive and win in war or gunfights has become a part of you.
Most gun owners fall short on the training part, so the culture tends to chase the best pistol and/or bullet . Hoping this will give them an edge, it will not.
I carry hollowpoints in my pistol. But in certain situations the spare mags carry NATO ball ammo. My reasoning for this is if I have not won the fight in the first 18 rounds then the bad guy(s) have taken cover and the ability to shoot through cover will be very important.
For decades we carried only ball ammo in Israel, in my unit we used the super hot ball ammo IMI made for using in Uzi's in our pistols. We killed a lot of terrorist. But we had one incident where this ammo went through the terrorist and hit a woman. This made the change and allowed us to use hollowpoints.
The key word here is "hunting."
You're talking about rifles. Rifles cook up a much higher velocity than pistols. .223 FMJ at 3200 fps makes devastating wounds with much fragmentation, secondary projectiles, and some "hydrostatic" shock. Except for extremity hits, you'll see a tiny entrance hole, no exit, and big damage inside. Soft points in the larger calibers do excellent expansion at 2400 fps. The main problem here is not generating expansion, but the opposite: keeping the bullet together enough to ensure penetration and not damage too much meat or hide.
But we were considering handgun bullets for self-protection. They travel at a fraction of the speed of rifle bullets. They have the opposite problem, in that they are hard to make expand consistently. That's why bullets taken out of dead bodies and shooting survivors don't look like mushrooms. They usually don't expand at all or malform irregularly.
And one thing I notice when hunters talk about handguns: for anything that could chew up the hunter, they talk about heavy FMJ or hard-cast bullets, not light hollow points. When their lives are on the line, they want a bullet that penetrates to the vitals and gets the job done.
So do you, when accosted by the Jackboyz.
DocGKR stated that bullets most OIS incidents using recommended loads look and perform like 4ld tests. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Id like to know what load, what barriers (if any), and the sample size.
As for hunting- anything that could chew up the hunter is anatomically vastly different than a human, and as such has different requirements.
DocGKR stated that bullets most OIS incidents using recommended loads look and perform like 4ld tests. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Id like to know what load, what barriers (if any), and the sample size.
As for hunting- anything that could chew up the hunter is anatomically vastly different than a human, and as such has different requirements.
What kills a man deader to stop him immediately? An expanded hollow point to the stomach or a fmj or hard cast to the stomach? Answer... None as far as immediately goes.
What kills a man deader to stop him immediately? An expanded hollow point to a vital or a fmj or hard cast to a vital? Answer... Both. One isn't going to do one better than the other. A hit to a vital like the brain, spinal column, heart, ect with either will do the job. One isn't going to the job and faster. The bullet has to reach there though and hollow points limit peneration in some cases. They don't penetrate at the perfect 12 to 13 inches that they did when fired into bare gel at 10 ft.which is just 1 to 2 inches more than the Winchester Silvertip that failed the FBI.
As stated in the other thread that got closed for unknown reasons, distance further than 10 ft, barriers, and barrel length lower the velocity that'll affect the peneration range it got when it was tested at 10 ft.
Yoni's post back on page 13 is one of the best on the whole damn internet.
Yoni's post back on page 13 is one of the best on the whole damn internet.
Yeah, I think I'll take his word for it over the those just full of bluster. ;)
But how can that be? FMJ's are useless. No way terrorists were killed with them! Hollow points are needed! :sarcastic:
And there you have it. Hollow points were later adopted to reduce peneration. I agree with Yoni's post 200 percent. Train. Train and then train some more. Many obsess with the magical bullet that expands for defense and the biggest bore revolver for the woods but can't handle the recoil adequately on a moving target like they could with a smaller caliber loaded with hard cast.
Doc Safari
08-06-18, 14:06
But how can that be? FMJ's are useless. No way terrorists were killed with them! Hollow points are needed! :sarcastic:
And there you have it. Hollow points were later adopted to reduce peneration. I agree with Yoni's post 200 percent. Train. Train and then train some more. Many obsess with the magical bullet that expands for defense and the biggest bore revolver for the woods but can't handle the recoil adequately on a moving target like they could with a smaller caliber loaded with hard cast.
Let's muddy the water a little more. SIZE DOES MATTER:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1951
After eleven tests, the board found that the shock effect of a given bullet was in proportion to its sectional area, i.e., the greater the diameter of the bullet, the greater shock effect.
...the 1903/1904 tests seemed to prove beyond doubt that a large, relatively slow moving bullet was more effective than a small, extremely fast one.
The report concluded that the effectiveness of bullets increases in direct proportion to mass, rather than velocity. In other words, if a small, fast bullet is effective, a large, heavier one at the same or even somewhat less velocity than the smaller one is even better.
“All the tests of which the author has any knowledge..., indicate that caliber is by far the most important factor in stopping power.” The .45 ACP has consistently proven to be more effective in incapacitation ability than the 9x19mm Parabellum, although the reasons why this is so may not be readily apparent in testing.
And it's power level, too:
To equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45 ACP bullet, the 1-pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. The dramatic difference between 9mm and .45 bullets in this test can be directly applied to their relative effect on the human body and partially explains why the 9x9mm is less effective than the .45 ACP for military applications when both bullets are of the FMJ variety. Thus, in terms of both wounding effectiveness and measured impact, the .45 ACP is superior to the 9x19mm.
The 230-grain full metal jacket round rated 100% penetration success rate in the FBI tests, while the best 9x19mm round, the 124-grain NATO, achieved 95.5% in the FBI Penetration Protocol. This difference is small, but it must be remembered that the US M882 has less energy than the standard NATO round and penetration is only one aspect of ammunition effectiveness. Indeed, lethality was never an issue in development of the US M882 9x19mm round. On the contrary, it would appear that the M882 was developed because the M9 pistol had rail and locking block failures when firing ammunition that is more potent.
To equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45 ACP bullet, the 1-pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. The dramatic difference between 9mm and .45 bullets in this test can be directly applied to their relative effect on the human body and partially explains why the 9x9mm is less effective than the .45 ACP for military applications when both bullets are of the FMJ variety. Thus, in terms of both wounding effectiveness and measured impact, the .45 ACP is superior to the 9x19mm.
Then, Gol' Darnit, they go and argue in favor of shot placement and greater multiple shot capacity again:
In the movies, “bad guys” (and good guys, as well) are typically shot and almost immediately fall down either dead or totally incapacitated. In the real world, people who are shot are rarely rendered instantly incapable of any further physical action. Even when shot in the heart, a usually fatal wound, a person will still have 10 to 15 seconds of consciousness remaining before blood loss to the brain causes unconsciousness. This is a virtual lifetime in combat, when a single second may make the difference between life and death. The only situation in which incapacitation is instantaneous is a central nervous system hit, either in the brain or brain stem. Otherwise, it is likely that the person shot will be capable of some level of physical activity. Just how much physical activity a fatally wounded person would be capable of varies greatly and is dependent upon so many variables that it is beyond the scope of this brief paper. Suffice to say that single shot immediate incapacitation by pistol bullets is the exception and not the rule. That fact is the reason for the “double tap” used by many special operations and police forces. Even so, there are many documented instances of individuals being shot several times both with 9x19mm and .45 ACP bullets without significant incapacitation.
But really, all you pistoleros....handguns ain't about shit anyway:
In summation, the military handgun today, save for special applications and last ditch personal defense, is of little significance. Even for special operations use, it is not the primary weapon of any individual. In the days of horse cavalry, the handgun was an adjunct to the trooper’s saber and carbine, not his primary weapon. In today’s military, the handgun is usually the weapon of last resort. This is reflected in the current “personal defense weapon” nomenclature sometimes applied to handguns in lieu of the term pistol. That said, the term “personal defense weapon” is generally an over complication of a relatively simple term that more correctly alludes to the true purpose of the handgun - self-defense. The prudent solider or Marine will never plan on attacking or defending himself armed only with a handgun. His sidearm is the primary defense against unexpected attack or when his other weapons are either out of ammunition or unavailable.
My take: your pistol gives you the ability to fight your way back to your rifle. If you go to the link and read the parts I didn't quote, the authors appear to agree although they don't explicitly say so in those words.
I am going to tell you I have seen ZERO difference in shooting people with a 45acp and shooting people with a 9mm.
Both failed if shot placement sucked. Both failed with great shot placement.
Such is life .
I have determined for me economics of motion combines with great tactics matter more than anything.
What does this mean. It means if someone jumps out at you and wants to murder you with an edged weapon if you shoot his 8 times in the heart (you can't get your pistol up to his head)with .46acp and and he still wants to fight you better have a friend that can push his rifle over you and blow the guys head off.
But latter your now using a 9mm and his cousin tries to kill you, you shoot him 7 times in the heart and he still wants to fight it was nice to keep shooting as you moved up hid body till 2 shots struck under his jaw and went out the top of hid head.
Economics of motion to me means more bullets between needing to reload.
If facts from real life upset you, then you should sell your guns. Cause you will never be able to bring yourself to shoot a person.
Doc Safari
08-06-18, 14:26
Economics of motion to me means more bullets between needing to reload.
I agree with this, and that's why I'm a Glockster. More chances of getting a hit mean more chances of getting a fatal hit.
Let's muddy the water a little more. SIZE DOES MATTER:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1951
.[/B]
That's a myth. A vital organ isn't going to care if the hole is .355 or .450 in diameter. That myth is just as bad and repeated as often as the frozen coats in the Korean War that stopped bullets.
And energy or power from pistol bullets doesn't kill either. Peneration to vitals do.
Ever read "shooting to live with the one-handed gun" by Fairbain and Sykes?
Very neat read.
While they were training the Chinese Police to tame Shanghai they were in plenty of scraps with pistols. They wrote more than once that it may sound like "blasphemy" but they didn't notice any superior "stopping power" from .45 acp or .455 Webley. They opined to forget .22 and .25 acp for general police work because they are too light. But .32, .380, 9mm, .38 special, etc were fine and there was little to no difference between them.
They did have a preference for .44 special IIRC. But the pistol feared most and sought after were the 1896 Mauser pistol clones in 7.63 mm Mauser! They commented how the bullet penetrated like the dickens and when the "high velocity" bullets struck bone they busted and splintered it.
What they preached the most (as far as gun-handling) was to shoot first, shoot often, practice at contact distances as well as the standard 25M (contact-distance training with a pistol was a new, advanced thing) By shoot often, I mean they taught "burst fire". (A term I first saw in Ian Fleming books, this is where he learned it) Don't just fire a shot and wait for effect. Give at least four rounds or so. Carry a second revolver or extra mags. And you don't have strike a pose, get a perfect sight picture, and squeeze off the perfect shot. Practice with the sights as well as shooting before you have time to get the gun up to even see the sights at the BG 10 feet away. New stuff at the time.
The part apart inspecting guns and magazines of the Police was kinda funny. The Chinese Police had problems keeping the automatics running due to abuse and neglect. Magazines were stored in pockets. They would find them jammed up because they had tobacco in them. They'd be dented and damaged from being used to hammer things and pry open cans and bottles. So they preferred revolvers be issued if the rank and file cops couldn't be trained to keep an automatic pistol in good shape.
But I digress.
That's a myth. A vital organ isn't going to care if the hole is .355 or .450 in diameter. That myth is just as bad and repeated as often as the frozen coats in the Korean War that stopped bullets.
And energy or power from pistol bullets doesn't kill either. Peneration to vitals do.
Okay, this'll probably get me in trouble, but since wtm75 started it, here goes:
1. There is no such thing as stopping power. Query: what is the quantum unit of stopping power? How is it measured? How many units of stopping power does .45 ACP have, and how manyh more does 10mm have? (If there was such a thing, I'd name the unit the "Cooper." Alas, there will never be a Cooper unit of measure). If you can't describe it, and can't measure it, that's a pretty good indication that it doesn't exist.
2. There is no such thing as knockdown power. Newton's Third Law. If a gun was powerful enough to knock the shot guy down, it'd knock you down, too. Somebody hit with a .45 gets pushed around as much as your hand does when you fire the shot: not much.
3. Hydrostatic shock doesn't exist, at handgun velocities.
4. Temporary wound cavitation at handgun velocities has never been shown to have adverse effects.
5. Bullets kill by penetrating vitals, i.e. the brain, spine, and big blood vessels. Period.
6. A .452 hole in an aorta will kill you in 10 or 15 seconds, but so will a .40 hole or a .356 hole.
7. All the service calibers work about the same: .357, .38, 9mm, .40, .45. This leads to the conclusion that 9mm in semis and .38 in revolvers is your best bet, for higher capacity and faster follow up shots.
8. The hand cannons, .44 mag, .454, 10mm don't give you any advantage over the service calibers, and you pay the price in bigger gun, heavier recoil, reduced capacity, and more expensive ammo.
9. The mouse guns , .22, .25, .32 don't fail for lack of expansion; when they fail it's because they don't do enough penetration and don't get to the vitals.
10. ER doctors and medical examiners can't tell by looking the caliber of the bullet, or whether it was a FMJ or a $1 a shot premium jacketed hollow point round.
11. Hollow point bullets that kill people usually don't expand "properly" and rather look mangled or show little deformation. Through and through shots are the norm, not the exception.
12. There's no such thing as energy transfer or energy dumping.
13. Rifle bullet wounds are qualitatively different from handgun bullet wounds, and the fast .22s such as 5.56mm produce truly devastating wounds. This is due to fragmentation, secondary projectiles, and -- yes -- to some extent, "hydrostatic" effects.
14. The notion that FMJ or round nose lead rounds somehow "slide" through tissue causing little damage is baloney. Examine somebody shot with those rounds if you don't believe that.
15. Handgun hunters have the right idea, and especially those that consider handguns for defense against bears and other dangerous game. You don't see them loading fast JHPs or trick bullets. They depend for their lives on heavy for caliber, hard cast or FMJ loads. Those guys are all about penetration.
16. Gel, water jugs, wet telephone books, dry telephone books, ice blocks, sand bags, and other inanimate objects tell us little about how bullets perform in living creatures.
17. It's all about shot placement, penetration, and a little bit of luck.
You have to respect those using hard won experiences to evolve tactics over time. This is necessarily driven by working in a busy environment providing lots of input and data like the West Bank or early 20th Century Shanghai. It is interesting what you end up finding important when you do something a lot.
I am 100% aligned with Yoni. Like many here I am a huge gun dork and have way too many fun and serious long guns, but I have far fewer pistols and 90% of those are 3 generations of duty pistols. None of the 3 generations were my first choice and I constantly trained seriously with each set as they are my most likely primary weapon in any fight. I am not going to switch weapon systems on a whim and when I finally had the chance to switch to my "dream" system (1911) I passed because it just didn't make sense to me any more after 20 years of serious work and constantly considered preparations.
I know everyone can't have regular tactical experiences or even ongoing specialized training but there is no reason you can't spend more time considering your likely threat scenarios and various possible responses than Sig vs Glock or HP vs FMJ.
Dennis.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
5. Bullets kill by penetrating vitals, i.e. the brain, spine, and big blood vessels. Period.
15. Handgun hunters have the right idea, and especially those that consider handguns for defense against bears and other dangerous game. You don't see them loading fast JHPs or trick bullets. They depend for their lives on heavy for caliber, hard cast or FMJ loads. Those guys are all about penetration.
.
This^^^
The physical dynamics of killing large animals like moose or bear are the same as killing humans. Expansion and energy dump or power doesn't kill these large animals. Penetration to vitals does. The dynamics don't change when it comes to humans.
I would keep in mind that handgun HP/SP's for largish beasts are not lightly built. You can get both expansion and penetration, thus crushing a bit more tissue. And when it comes to hunting bullets in rifle calibers, they're built for expansion and penetration also. I would feel just fine with a typical 175 gr SP in my 7mm RM punching through both sides of a moose.
As for self defense against man, one of my concerns is over penetration as already mentioned (wouldn't want to nail some innocent bystander). 9 and 45 fmj's both have pretty impressive penetration...like 2 or 3 people.
This^^^
The physical dynamics of killing large animals like moose or bear are the same as killing humans. Expansion and energy dump or power doesn't kill these large animals. Penetration to vitals does. The dynamics don't change when it comes to humans.
I gotta second this. I have seen more gunshot wounds/gunshot deaths than I care to remember in my line of work. Which is probably significantly more than the average person. The vast majority of these were from non hollow points (criminals get whats cheap and readily available) and shot placement was the key. That being said, I saw a man shoot himself in the head with a .22 short and it just zipped around to the other side between the skin and skull and stopped by his hear.
I will add one other factor to the equation of a gun fight. You need to think about it prior to the fact. I have a partner when I was a cop in the USA, who was one of the best pistol shots I have ever seen. He fired his pistol twice on the street, both easy shots. But he missed in both incidents.
I sat down to try to figure out how this was even possible. The answer is, he never had come to understand that he was unable to shoot a person.
Why was he unable to shoot a person?
Because he bought into Thou Shall Not Kill. Which is 100% not a true translation, it is don't murder.
Also if you think about the killing of a person before you actually do so, you will have come to peace with it and not suffer as much mental anguish or any anguish at all from the actual killing.
You will have enough anguish from the media, you don't anguish from the actual act of pulling the trigger.
Indeed. And they can't tell whether it was a $2 Critical Defense Premium Law Enforcement Hollow Point or a white-box FMJ. Bullets are bullets to a ER doctor or a ME. These are the people that actually examine shot bodies, not "ballistics experts" and internet speculators.
This is why I'm one of the one percent (?) of pistol-packers on m4carbine that carries FMJ in his everyday carry 9mm. Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain to be exact. And I carry in the Big City (and not Dinkytown) where the possibility that I'll actually have to use them is not so remote.
Bullets have to penetrate to get the job done. They not only have to penetrate to the vitals, but they have to penetrate cars, glass, any kind of objects.
Nobody can point to an incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to expand. There are plenty of examples of incapacitation that didn't happen because the bullet failed to penetrate.
Notice hunters; they don't drool over the latest trick bullet load. No. They use the same jacketed soft point or solid cast bullets that they know have worked forever. Hunters know that if you don't penetrate to the vitals, game is wounded, runs off to bleed to death somewhere far away, or die of infection. Woodsmen seeking protection from bears, etc. ain't shooting SXT or Critical Defense or those weird bullets that look like little tips for your screwdriver handle. They're shooting Buffalo Bore or Corbon or Underwood heavy cast or heavy solid jacketed bullets.
Make mine FMJ.
Hunters talk bullets more than any group I know. However, knowledgeable hunters use two types of bullets, those that expand and those that have a large flat meplat. Hunters do not use non expanding bullets with round or pointy noses.
Non expanding bullets used by hunters are heavy and have large flat noses that cut deep wound channels. Expanding bullets are usually spitzers and smaller in diameter for higher velocities and flatter trajectories. They expand on impact to create a large meplat to cut a wider wound channel. Most hunters want enough penetration for a through and through for faster bleed out and better blood track. Hunters do not want to penetrate to the vitals. They want penetration through the vitals and they don't want to just penetrate the vitals, they want they vitals destroyed.
Hunters know that while a non expanding spitzer or round nose will kill, a large flat meplat is more efficient.
daddyusmaximus
08-08-18, 12:40
2. The Russian PM Makarov pistol is generally more reliable than the Amerian Colt 1911a1.
Gotta go back to page one... Fan boy here. This is a false statement. The 1911 is every bit as reliable a design as any other on the market. There is a reason why it has such a cult following. Of course, there is also a reason why it has gained a poor reputation. The bad rep, however, cannot be placed at the feet of the design, or the original manufacturer. The bad rep comes from the myriad of copy cat makers who have tried to cash in on the guns popularity, and failed to machine their products properly.
I only have two handguns. A S&W 1911, and a Vickers edition Glock 17. Both are dead nuts reliable. It is a matter of design, (as they are both great designs) and a matter of machining, as they were both made by top notch manufacturers. I do carry the 17 much more often nowadays, but not because of any increase in reliability, because of the features it has the 1911 does not... night sights, light rail, higher capacity, and lighter weight.
The 1911 is NOT an unreliable weapon... by design.
However, there are many companies out there who don't know how to make one.
Gotta go back to page one... Fan boy here. This is a false statement. The 1911 is every bit as reliable a design as any other on the market. There is a reason why it has such a cult following. Of course, there is also a reason why it has gained a poor reputation. The bad rep, however, cannot be placed at the feet of the design, or the original manufacturer. The bad rep comes from the myriad of copy cat makers who have tried to cash in on the guns popularity, and failed to machine their products properly.
I only have two handguns. A S&W 1911, and a Vickers edition Glock 17. Both are dead nuts reliable. It is a matter of design, (as they are both great designs) and a matter of machining, as they were both made by top notch manufacturers. I do carry the 17 much more often nowadays, but not because of any increase in reliability, because of the features it has the 1911 does not... night sights, light rail, higher capacity, and lighter weight.
The 1911 is NOT an unreliable weapon... by design.
However, there are many companies out there who don't know how to make one.
Another issue with the 1911 is "accurizing."
Original 1911 clearances were looser. Some of these guns, you can shake them and they rattle. A good thing on a battlefield, where a speck of dust could cause a jam on a tighter gun.
But the tradeoff is lack of bullseye accuracy, something you don't need for short range self preservation. Manufacturers started making tight slides, tight bushings, tight everything. Groups got smaller, but so did susceptibility to jamming. This is what gave the 1911 a reputation for unreliability. We are now asking the 1911 to do too much: simultaneously to be target accurate, and reliable under carrying conditions.
Yes, while you can see daylight through a Glock or similar. Not saying that one is better than the other, just agreeing that people seem to expect an awful lot out of some 1911's.
I will add one other factor to the equation of a gun fight. You need to think about it prior to the fact. I have a partner when I was a cop in the USA, who was one of the best pistol shots I have ever seen. He fired his pistol twice on the street, both easy shots. But he missed in both incidents.
I sat down to try to figure out how this was even possible. The answer is, he never had come to understand that he was unable to shoot a person.
Why was he unable to shoot a person?
Because he bought into Thou Shall Not Kill. Which is 100% not a true translation, it is don't murder.
Also if you think about the killing of a person before you actually do so, you will have come to peace with it and not suffer as much mental anguish or any anguish at all from the actual killing.
You will have enough anguish from the media, you don't anguish from the actual act of pulling the trigger.
Exactly right. The mindset to commit an act of violence has to be trained.
Hunters talk bullets more than any group I know. However, knowledgeable hunters use two types of bullets, those that expand and those that have a large flat meplat. Hunters do not use non expanding bullets with round or pointy noses.
Non expanding bullets used by hunters are heavy and have large flat noses that cut deep wound channels. Expanding bullets are usually spitzers and smaller in diameter for higher velocities and flatter trajectories. They expand on impact to create a large meplat to cut a wider wound channel. Most hunters want enough penetration for a through and through for faster bleed out and better blood track. Hunters do not want to penetrate to the vitals. They want penetration through the vitals and they don't want to just penetrate the vitals, they want they vitals destroyed.
Hunters know that while a non expanding spitzer or round nose will kill, a large flat meplat is more efficient.
I think you are confusing hunters that use rifles compared to hunters that use handguns. With a rifle you get adequate penetration with an expanded bullet. That's not the case with hunters that use handguns. They use the heaviest for caliber non expanding bullets because expanding bullets don't penetrate enough.
I think you are confusing hunters that use rifles compared to hunters that use handguns. With a rifle you get adequate penetration with an expanded bullet. That's not the case with hunters that use handguns. They use the heaviest for caliber non expanding bullets because expanding bullets don't penetrate enough.
I am not. All else being equal, bullets with a large meplat kill better than bullets with a smaller meplat. Round nose bullets have a smaller meplat than semi wadcutters. Semi wadcutters kill more efficiently than round nose bullets because semi wadcutters have a wide flat meplat. That's the reason Elmer Keith designed semi wadcutters bullets with large meplats for hand gun calibers and they have stood the test of time.
I am not. All else being equal, bullets with a large meplat kill better than bullets with a smaller meplat. Round nose bullets have a smaller meplat than semi wadcutters. Semi wadcutters kill more efficiently than round nose bullets because semi wadcutters have a wide flat meplat. That's the reason Elmer Keith designed semi wadcutters bullets with large meplats for hand gun calibers and they have stood the test of time.
Who here is saying round noses are better than flat pointed hard cast? FMJ's come in flat points too.
daddyusmaximus
08-09-18, 00:04
Another issue with the 1911 is "accurizing."
Original 1911 clearances were looser. Some of these guns, you can shake them and they rattle. A good thing on a battlefield, where a speck of dust could cause a jam on a tighter gun.
But the tradeoff is lack of bullseye accuracy, something you don't need for short range self preservation. Manufacturers started making tight slides, tight bushings, tight everything. Groups got smaller, but so did susceptibility to jamming. This is what gave the 1911 a reputation for unreliability. We are now asking the 1911 to do too much: simultaneously to be target accurate, and reliable under carrying conditions.
JMB probably had a similar idea to that of Kalashnikov in that he wanted to build a simple reliable gun when he first designed it.
You could probably tighten up tolerances a bit, and gain accuracy most of the time, but then it requires additional maintenance. Tradeoffs can be a bitch, but I like my S&W 1911. It's middle of the pack. More accurate that a shot out old Colt, but not tight enough to cause problems. It's design has been changed though, external extractor. Not sure if it's better or worse, but it works every time.
Who here is saying round noses are better than flat pointed hard cast?
Yet no one pointed out that non expanding bullets with a large meplat are more efficient at killing than bullets with a small meplat.
FMJ's come in flat points too.
Yes. Yes, they do. However, nearly all 9mm FMJs are round nosed. Let me also point out that not all non expanding bullets are FMJs.
The point is, expanding or not, a bullet with a large meplat with deep penetration is more efficient for killing. Take the information and apply it to your needs as necessary.
Who here is saying round noses are better than flat pointed hard cast?
Yet no one pointed out that non expanding bullets with a large meplat are more efficient at killing than bullets with a small meplat.
FMJ's come in flat points too.
Yes. Yes, they do. However, nearly all 9mm FMJs are round nosed. Let me also point out that not all non expanding bullets are FMJs.
The point is, expanding or not, a bullet with a large meplat with deep penetration is more efficient for killing. Take the information and apply it to your needs as necessary.
Yet no one pointed out that non expanding bullets with a large meplat are more efficient at killing than bullets with a small meplat.
Yes. Yes, they do. However, nearly all 9mm FMJs are round nosed. Let me also point out that not all non expanding bullets are FMJs.
The point is, expanding or not, a bullet with a large meplat with deep penetration is more efficient for killing. Take the information and apply it to your needs as necessary.
I agree. No one said otherwise.
Yet no one pointed out that non expanding bullets with a large meplat are more efficient at killing than bullets with a small meplat.
Yes. Yes, they do. However, nearly all 9mm FMJs are round nosed. Let me also point out that not all non expanding bullets are FMJs.
The point is, expanding or not, a bullet with a large meplat with deep penetration is more efficient for killing. Take the information and apply it to your needs as necessary.
9mm Flat Pointed 147 gr+p+ FMJ.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9mm-luger-plus-p-plus-147-grain-full-metal-jacket?variant=7865898696761
Gotta go back to page one... Fan boy here. This is a false statement. The 1911 is every bit as reliable a design as any other on the market. There is a reason why it has such a cult following. Of course, there is also a reason why it has gained a poor reputation. The bad rep, however, cannot be placed at the feet of the design, or the original manufacturer. The bad rep comes from the myriad of copy cat makers who have tried to cash in on the guns popularity, and failed to machine their products properly.
I only have two handguns. A S&W 1911, and a Vickers edition Glock 17. Both are dead nuts reliable. It is a matter of design, (as they are both great designs) and a matter of machining, as they were both made by top notch manufacturers. I do carry the 17 much more often nowadays, but not because of any increase in reliability, because of the features it has the 1911 does not... night sights, light rail, higher capacity, and lighter weight.
The 1911 is NOT an unreliable weapon... by design.
However, there are many companies out there who don't know how to make one.
I get what your saying. I'd love to see 5 new Bulgarian Maks and 5 new 1911's from ANY current maker cleaned, lubed, and run 1000 rds over a two day course.
I'd put money on there being more non-ammo related stoppages from the 1911's..
MountainRaven
08-09-18, 14:59
I get what your saying. I'd love to see 5 new Bulgarian Maks and 5 new 1911's from ANY current maker cleaned, lubed, and run 1000 rds over a two day course.
I'd put money on there being more non-ammo related stoppages from the 1911's..
I'd take that bet and I'll put it at 2000 rounds over two days or 1000 over one day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVCNfB_gogI
I think everyone accepts that shot placement is key, the only way to immediately stop an aggressor is a CNS hit, and that training and proper mindset are vastly more important than what ammunition you choose to use in a carry gun.
I'm still waiting on someone to show evidence that modern expanding bullet designs don't reliably expand in actual shootings. And not just repeating an anecdotal line about what "medical examiners and ER Docs everywhere" see in shooting victims.
As a counter argument to that nonsense:
I see a lot of GSW's. I do have selection bias, I only see the dead guys with GSWs. When I examine a wound track at autopsy, I can't tell the difference between 9 and 40. I can sometimes tell a 45 was used. Depends on what/where it hits but it does leave a bit bigger hole. Other than location, what does seem to make the most difference is what bullet was used. Good quality defensive bullets do a better job than crappy stuff. Yes, I know it's obvious, but a lot of thugs use whatever they find. Those bullets tear up, fall apart and sometimes only are successful from numbers or luck. The better bullets that we see, sometimes from LEO guns, do exactly what they are supposed to, dump a lot of damage, stop in the dead guy and generally ruin his day. Survival time is reduced and the hospitals have a much harder time fixing the injury.
From here: https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/reading-9mm-advantage?reply=2843236914629998#2843236914629998
It seems the whole train of thought being put forth for FMJs above all types of expanding handgun bullets is that hollow points don't expand reliably enough to cause adequate trauma/exsanguination while at the same time they expand at the worst possible time and thus aren't capable of penetrating into vital areas reliably. It seems unlikely both of these things are true.
As such, I'm getting the impression that some posters (such as wtm75 and Uni-vibe) are willing to accept the consequences of massive over-penetration and the potential collateral damage to innocents that might accompany it. Yes, you should absolutely know what's behind your target, but why take a chance with a projectile that is almost certain to pass through your attacker, potentially injuring or killing a bystander (or one of your loved ones)?
It's been mentioned in some earlier posts, but my understanding is that good quality modern expanding pistol bullets (not older designs, cheap crap, or target hollow points), those that meet FBI standards or those put forth by folks like Dr Roberts provide a balance between adequate penetration (including through heavy clothing), tissue damage (in the event you don't make a CNS hit), and prevention of over penetration. Certainly not all hollow points fit these standards, but I don't buy the argument that all of the ballistic testing done to handgun ammo is without merit and that anyone who considers it has fallen victim to slick ammunition company advertising.
9mm Flat Pointed 147 gr+p+ FMJ.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9mm-luger-plus-p-plus-147-grain-full-metal-jacket?variant=7865898696761
I may have misunderstood the context this ammunition was mentioned in, but since when are +P+ FMJs that are marketed for Black Bear defense a responsible choice for self defense ammunition against humans in a potentially crowded or urban setting?
I think everyone accepts that shot placement is key, the only way to immediately stop an aggressor is a CNS hit, and that training and proper mindset are vastly more important than what ammunition you choose to use in a carry gun.
I'm still waiting on someone to show evidence that modern expanding bullet designs don't reliably expand in actual shootings. And not just repeating an anecdotal line about what "medical examiners and ER Docs everywhere" see in shooting victims.
As a counter argument to that nonsense:
From here: https://www.lightfighter.net/topic/reading-9mm-advantage?reply=2843236914629998#2843236914629998
It seems the whole train of thought being put forth for FMJs above all types of expanding handgun bullets is that hollow points don't expand reliably enough to cause adequate trauma/exsanguination while at the same time they expand at the worst possible time and thus aren't capable of penetrating into vital areas reliably. It seems unlikely both of these things are true.
As such, I'm getting the impression that some posters (such as wtm75 and Uni-vibe) are willing to accept the consequences of massive over-penetration and the potential collateral damage to innocents that might accompany it. Yes, you should absolutely know what's behind your target, but why take a chance with a projectile that is almost certain to pass through your attacker, potentially injuring or killing a bystander (or one of your loved ones)?
It's been mentioned in some earlier posts, but my understanding is that good quality modern expanding pistol bullets (not older designs, cheap crap, or target hollow points), those that meet FBI standards or those put forth by folks like Dr Roberts provide a balance between adequate penetration (including through heavy clothing), tissue damage (in the event you don't make a CNS hit), and prevention of over penetration. Certainly not all hollow points fit these standards, but I don't buy the argument that all of the ballistic testing done to handgun ammo is without merit and that anyone who considers it has fallen victim to slick ammunition company advertising.
I may have misunderstood the context this ammunition was mentioned in, but since when are +P+ FMJs that are marketed for Black Bear defense a responsible choice for self defense ammunition against humans in a potentially crowded or urban setting?
What I'm saying about hollow points is that they don't penetrate enough in all cases. Not that they don't expand reliably. That isn't my argument although a a lot of hollow points do fail and act as fmj's. There are numerous cases where they expand beautifully as designed but fall short of reaching vitals. IE going through an arm, expanding, then having to exit that same arm and traveling the whole length of a chest from the opposite side to reach a vital like the heart. Add a hoodie, a couple of shirts, and a leather jacket, and now that bullet has to go through that clothing three times before it hits the chest and has to travel the whole length of the chest. Now add a barrier that'll slow it down further like a car door.
As far as over penetration goes, it's a myth that's told to sell bullets. For decades upon decades, over penetration was never an issue before hollow points became main stream in the late 80's early 90's. In thousands of shootings by police and civilians throughout the years before hollow points were main stream, over peneration was never an issue that was complained about nor were there incidents upon incidents of over peneration accidents. Sure there were some but they were at the same rate as misses.
In most defensive shootings whether today or in the past, there are misses. All those misses are over penetrators. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Whenever a rifle or shotgun is used, besides .223 fmj's that fragment, most of those bullets over penetrate. They have complete pass throughs in most cases. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Why aren't misses and big bore hollow points a problem? Because most people know their target and what's beyond. It's one of the safety rules. Also when gunfire erupts, people don't tend to stay in the direction of the target. They scatter.
So if in most shootings there are misses, and in the past FMJ's, semi wadcutters, and cast lead bullets were used, where were those over peneration problems in the past and where are those problems today with misses and hollow points used in rifles that over penetrate?
MountainRaven
08-09-18, 20:42
What I'm saying about hollow points is that they don't penetrate enough in all cases. Not that they don't expand reliably. That isn't my argument although a a lot of hollow points do fail and act as fmj's. There are numerous cases where they expand beautifully as designed but fall short of reaching vitals. IE going through an arm, expanding, then having to exit that same arm and traveling the whole length of a chest from the opposite side to reach a vital like the heart. Add a hoodie, a couple of shirts, and a leather jacket, and now that bullet has to go through that clothing three times before it hits the chest and has to travel the whole length of the chest. Now add a barrier that'll slow it down further like a car door.
As far as over penetration goes, it's a myth that's told to sell bullets. For decades upon decades, over penetration was never an issue before hollow points became main stream in the late 80's early 90's. In thousands of shootings by police and civilians throughout the years before hollow points were main stream, over peneration was never an issue that was complained about nor were there incidents upon incidents of over peneration accidents. Sure there were some but they were at the same rate as misses.
In most defensive shootings whether today or in the past, there are misses. All those misses are over penetrators. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Whenever a rifle or shotgun is used, besides .223 fmj's that fragment, most of those bullets over penetrate. They have complete pass throughs in most cases. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Why aren't misses and big bore hollow points a problem? Because most people know their target and what's beyond. It's one of the safety rules. Also when gunfire erupts, people don't tend to stay in the direction of the target. They scatter.
So if in most shootings they there are misses, and in the past FMJ's, semi wadcutters, and cast lead bullets were used, where were those over peneration problems in the past and were are those problems today with misses?
If FMJs are so wonderful... why do SOF use hollowpoints? Why don't they use the cheap and cheerful FMJ instead?
If FMJs are so wonderful... why do SOF use hollowpoints? Why don't they use the cheap and cheerful FMJ instead?
Kool aid. Same reason many do. Hollow points on rifles are a totally different animal though and when it comes to pistols, they are rarely used. Some guys even forego the pistol entirely for weight savings.
As far as over penetration goes, it's a myth that's told to sell bullets. For decades upon decades, over penetration was never an issue before hollow points became main stream in the late 80's early 90's. In thousands of shootings by police and civilians throughout the years before hollow points were main stream, over peneration was never an issue that was complained about nor were there incidents upon incidents of over peneration accidents. Sure there were some but they were at the same rate as misses.
In most defensive shootings whether today or in the past, there are misses. All those misses are over penetrators. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Whenever a rifle or shotgun is used, besides .223 fmj's that fragment, most of those bullets over penetrate. They have complete pass throughs in most cases. Guess what? They aren't a problem. Why aren't misses and big bore hollow points a problem? Because most people know their target and what's beyond. It's one of the safety rules. Also when gunfire erupts, people don't tend to stay in the direction of the target. They scatter.
So if in most shootings they there are misses, and in the past FMJ's, semi wadcutters, and cast lead bullets were used, where were those over peneration problems in the past and were are those problems today with misses?
Real world examples of over-penetration aren't even that hard to find. Heck, Yoni gave us one from personal experience just a few pages back that resulted in the accidental shooting of an innocent bystander.
Just a couple of seconds of Google-Fu:
New York Times, July 9, 1998: New York Police Will Start Using Deadlier Bullets
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/nyregion/new-york-police-will-start-using-deadlier-bullets.html
This is an article covering NYPDs switch from FMJ to JHP bullets in 1999.
The article is also mentioned by Massad Ayoob here if you'd rather not click thru to the NYT: https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/massad-ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets
“According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full metal jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects”
So 7 of the 15 innocent bystanders shot were hit by over-penetrating bullets and not misses. That's nearly 47%.
More from the same article:
“In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed through other people.”
Nearly 37% here.
If you add the total of innocent bystanders and cops together, unintended hits due to shoot-throughs is 24 out of 59 shootings, or nearly 41%.
Maybe not just a myth after all?
Kool aid. Same reason many do. Hollow points on rifles are a totally different animal though and when it comes to pistols, they are rarely used. Some guys even forego the pistol entirely for weight savings.
USSOCOM is just drinking Kool-Aid? Yeah, I guess they probably don't know anything at all about shooting people....:sarcastic:
USSOCOM is just drinking Kool-Aid? Yeah, I guess they probably don't know anything at all about shooting people....:sarcastic:
Soldiers aren't ballisticians. Most don't know even what grain is used. Some do. This is coming from one that served. It either kills the guy or it doesn't. Afterwards they don't study the wounds and perform autopsies on the body.
What about all the thousands that died with solid bullets? They still do today at alarming numbers by criminals.
Now if you want to count all the shots that failed to reach vitals, that'll be hard to do but it happens all the time. There's no denying that.
Real world examples of over-penetration aren't even that hard to find. Heck, Yoni gave us one from personal experience just a few pages back that resulted in the accidental shooting of an innocent bystander.
Just a couple of seconds of Google-Fu:
New York Times, July 9, 1998: New York Police Will Start Using Deadlier Bullets
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/nyregion/new-york-police-will-start-using-deadlier-bullets.html
This is an article covering NYPDs switch from FMJ to JHP bullets in 1999.
The article is also mentioned by Massad Ayoob here if you'd rather not click thru to the NYT: https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/massad-ayoob-the-dangers-of-over-penetrating-bullets
“According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full metal jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects”
So 7 of the 15 innocent bystanders shot were hit by over-penetrating bullets and not misses. That's nearly 47%.
More from the same article:
“In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed through other people.”
Nearly 37% here.
If you add the total of innocent bystanders and cops together, unintended hits due to shoot-throughs is 24 out of 59 shootings, or nearly 41%.
Maybe not just a myth after all?
The same can be said if one Googles innocent bystanders shot with misses and ricochets with the same department after hollow points were implemented. Statistics are a pain in the butt.
MountainRaven
08-09-18, 22:12
Soldiers aren't ballisticians. Most don't know even what grain is used. Some do. This is coming from one that served. It either kills the guy or it doesn't. Afterwards they don't study the wounds and perform autopsies on the body.
What about all the thousands that died with solid bullets? They still do today at alarming numbers by criminals.
You were in USSOCOM?
You were in USSOCOM?
No but I served in the Marines and the Army. I deployed twice and can tell you without a doubt that soldiers aren't ballisticians. Socom Soldiers and Sailors, and Marsoc Marines are better trained in tactics but they aren't ballisticians either. They are experts in warfare.
When one chooses a 9mm and the other a .45 as a sidearm, what does that tell you? Some even forego the pistol since it's rarely used.
Some police departments allow their officers to choose their sidearm and caliber. They make these same choices based on their personal feelings or what they've read on a forum or magazine. It's no different with Socom.
If soldiers or cops that are allowed to choose knew about ballistics, they'd all choose the same gun and ammo. But that isn't the case.
Wtm75 is right about police. Not to bash lawman, but 99% don't know any more about bullets and bodies than anyone else. They don't study this stuff and some of their notions are quaint, to say the least. Most use either issue weapons and ammo, or purchase from an approved list.
One commentator dismissed opinions of doctors as anecdotal. True enough, but we do not and never will have a proper data base of shooting variables. ER docs and especially MEs are trained observers.
But if you look at what you can -- and I have to emphasize that virtually all shooters have never seen a shot person, even one bullet that killed someone, or CSU and autopsy photos--you begin to draw some tentative conclusions. I know I changed my mind about a lot of this when I started to take a hard look.
One thing I do find persuasive is opinions of handgun hunters. Even on man sized game a .357 hunter won't shoot fast 110 or 125 grain JHP. They shoot heavier JSP slow expanding, or hard cast non expanding bullets. Who wants a shallow nonfatal wound that requires tracking?
And let's face it. Guns and ammo are a business. If one caliber was indeed better than the other or one bullet better than the other than there would eventually only be one caliber and one type of ammo sold for any given application. But that isn't the case. All the experts that say they are experts aren't experts at all if they recommend a bullet that only penetrates a few inches more than one that failed. All these experts contradict one another. And we call people experts that aren't experts at all because they carry guns required by there jobs. (Soldiers and Cops)
As the thread title states, these are "Hard Truths."
MountainRaven
08-09-18, 23:18
The hardest truth is that this forum has gone downhill hard since Doctor Roberts "left" it.
SeriousStudent
08-09-18, 23:28
wtm75 and Uni-Vibe: Stop putting the same crap in every thread that you post in. I'm tired of it, and I know everyone else is.
Stop posting in this thread, and ponder your future posts deeply.
This is not a request.
Wtm75 is right about police. Not to bash lawman, but 99% don't know any more about bullets and bodies than anyone else. They don't study this stuff and some of their notions are quaint, to say the least. Most use either issue weapons and ammo, or purchase from an approved list.
Here's the thing. Between the two of you, you guys have asserted or implied none of the following can be used to support the use of JHP over FMJ:
Any ballistics testing ever done that supports the use of expanding bullets (it's just hype)
Opinions and experience of LE Depts (Kool-aid drinkers)
Opinions and experience of SOCOM community (more Kool-aid drinkers)
Statistical reports of shootings (?)
Medical opinion that contradicts your position
You're pretty much left with:
FMJs and other solids penetrate like crazy and so must always be better
Trust me/us
Use what handgun hunters use
One commentator dismissed opinions of doctors as anecdotal. True enough, but we do not and never will have a proper data base of shooting variables. ER docs and especially MEs are trained observers.
I dismissed the anecdotal account of what "all ME and ER Docs say" because it was being repeated without any supporting evidence, and then quoted an actual ME who contradicted that point. Big difference.
But if you look at what you can -- and I have to emphasize that virtually all shooters have never seen a shot person, even one bullet that killed someone, or CSU and autopsy photos--you begin to draw some tentative conclusions. I know I changed my mind about a lot of this when I started to take a hard look.
One thing I do find persuasive is opinions of handgun hunters. Even on man sized game a .357 hunter won't shoot fast 110 or 125 grain JHP. They shoot heavier JSP slow expanding, or hard cast non expanding bullets. Who wants a shallow nonfatal wound that requires tracking?
And who are you shooting at that you're worried about tracking them after? :confused:
Again, handgun hunting is not the same as self defense shooting. Ammo designed to kill bear might not be the best choice for a self defense confrontation at the corner gas station or in a house you share with your wife and kids.
But maybe we should all just agree to disagree.
wtm75 and Uni-Vibe: Stop putting the same crap in every thread that you post in. I'm tired of it, and I know everyone else is.
Stop posting in this thread, and ponder your future posts deeply.
This is not a request.
So there you have it. Only one opinion is allowed on this forum or you are threatened with removal. If someone counters our opinions which are backed with facts by the way, We are to stay quiet and just accept what's being said or else.
I see how it goes around here. When the narrative doesn't go one's way due to not being able to counter it, a thread is closed. When the narrative doesn't go one's way for not being able to counter it again, threats of banishment are thrown.
That's how it is goes I guess. I can respect when someone says agree to disagree. But threats aren't kosher especially when no disrespect was shown to anyone.
SeriousStudent
08-10-18, 00:00
Yeah, you nailed it, thanks for blowing the lid off the conspiracy. The world owes you a vast debt we can never repay.
And by the way, the ban you just received is for failing to follow directions.
SeriousStudent
08-10-18, 00:02
And I knew, deep in my heart of hearts, that would not take very long.
Y'all are making my brain bleed, from the mental gymnastics.
I was not in SOCOM, but I have cross trained with them. Today I work with ex Rangers, SEALS and Delta, most of them are very switched on. I have had some great conversations about guns and bullets with them. But the truth the subject bores us, for we just get the job done. We all have killed more people than this tread has pages many times over. This isn't a big thing, to us. We push pistol platform going back and forth between us than what bullets we are going to put in it.
I am going in about 6 weeks to a place where I have shot people every time I go there, more than a few with pistol.
I will bring a limited number of Hollowpoint with me and the rest NATO ball.
I again will promise each and everyone here one thing and then I am done with this thread. As long as your pistol works with the ammo you carry, the choice of ammo in your pistol will effect the outcome of your shooting.
Some people are hard to kill, remember the Dalton bank raid or maybe it was the Cole-Younger bank job. They got shot to pieces with rifles and shotguns some of the rifles were based on history probably 45-70. Which was the round used to drop buffalo.
Some of these guys survived up to a dozen or so holes in their bodies.
Tactics and shot placement, combined with cover are what will get you home.
Can you shoot a 3" group at 15 yards? You need to work on your shooting. Can you think under pressure or is your brain going to freeze up on you.
Do you have the will to survive and kill the other person.
Have you prepared yourself to deal with it after you have killed someone?
These are what matters.
Not if the bullet is this or that type.
I have a friend in Africa that with a Ruger revolver that came from the USA as an aid package from USPostal cops. He only has round nose .38 special, to feed his revolver. He doesn't come here and worry that he is going to die if he doesn't use the newest in bullet.
But he has gone out and killed almost 70 guys in gun fights.
Think about it!
Doc Safari
08-10-18, 14:30
Can you shoot a 3" group at 15 yards? You need to work on your shooting. Can you think under pressure or is your brain going to freeze up on you.
What would you suggest as far as training methods, accuracy minimums, etc?
I think the old SEAL Team 6 idea of using an index card has a lot going for it.
No matter the distance you need to shoot as fast as you can, while keeping all the shots on the card.
Gun fighting has a space, time factor. More space equals more time for getting a more accurate shot.
Doc Safari
08-10-18, 15:17
I think the old SEAL Team 6 idea of using an index card has a lot going for it.
No matter the distance you need to shoot as fast as you can, while keeping all the shots on the card.
Gun fighting has a space, time factor. More space equals more time for getting a more accurate shot.
This is good info.
I may start a flame war here, but to me putting rounds into a bullseye with slow, deliberately aimed shots has application only for putting rounds into a bullseye with slow, deliberately aimed shots.
I am constantly looking for ways to simulate movement of a target while you fire at it. I've tried balloons bobbing in the wind, the theory being that it is supposed to simulate a human head moving in and out of cover.
I've tried shooting at soda cans as they roll down a berm, the theory being that the soda can is roughly the size of a vital area on a torso, and if you can hit it while it's moving, so much the better.
I'll have to try the index card idea. I may try to rig up something like an index card holder on a radio controlled toy car or something.
The mantra oft chanted at my IDPA matches was, "You can't miss fast enough to win." So accuracy is important, but learning speed is equally important.
Here is a hard truth about pistols, sometimes they have to be zeroed like any other gun.
I think the old SEAL Team 6 idea of using an index card has a lot going for it.
No matter the distance you need to shoot as fast as you can, while keeping all the shots on the card.
Gun fighting has a space, time factor. More space equals more time for getting a more accurate shot.
When we train in shoot houses we do that quite a bit. Staple the index card to the targets while making runs and trying to keep all shots on the card. It has definitely helped with consistency and accuracy. We have also done this static down long halls with targets shooting with our off hand
*all done with pistol and carbine, also when I say we I am referring to swat.
Grip and trigger control are equally important. The better you become, the more either will show deficiencies.
1. The average person who actually conceals a pistol every day for defensive can NOT put 5 rds into 5 inches at 5 yds in 5 seconds from a cold start at the range. To say nothing of doing the same at 25 yds. (Doesn't make it useless of course)
Your average person is also not a trained ex-LEO/Vet. Its probably a woman or a guy who may or may not have ever held a gun.
Here's one: Glock's never malfunction.
grizzlyblake
08-17-18, 12:55
Yeah, no kidding.
My wife sucks for the first few minutes on the range that I can drag her to a couple of times a year. She's pretty good with trigger control dryfiring at the TV at home though.
She's 5'0", 130lbs with a 3 month old baby. It's either laughing at how she sucks at being tactical (she doesn't even read M4C!) or helping her suck slightly less with a CC'd Glock 43 because I'm usually not with her out and about.
Drifting Fate
08-17-18, 22:13
There is the axiom that, "Speed is fine, accuracy is final." Was that Wyatt Earp? Must be the AZ dirt coming out of my veins.
I was listening to a Ballistic Radio podcast (I believe, if incorrect, I apologize, lots of podcasts), that LAPD SWAT works on a 0.5 sec split time with 100% accuracy. Others I agree with tend to echo this. If true, and I can't certify that it is, LAPD SWAT is pretty difficult to argue with.
Too slow is too slow, but a fast miss doesn't count.
As I grow older, I find much of life is about balance. I once could hit split times equaling a slow sub-gun - ah, misspent youth - while keeping hits in a generous 12" circle at 5 yards. Nothing even close now. The balance is increased accuracy at the cost of hot-rodding. Four empty cases in the air looks tre' cool in pictures, and works damn well if in the Zone, but two hits a second on target closes the books every time, so sayeth LAPD if the stories are correct. (An aside, I recall a video from LAPD trying to turn the 92FS into a multi-hit, speed wonder due to 9mm vs .45 and emphasizing speed, so I guess every large organization struggles with consistency).
It's trite and from a movie, but even a broken clock is right twice a day, "aim small, miss small." There really is no substitution for shot placement. Velocity and calibre may or may not help increase the odds, but stick with what you know - the point of shooting is to hit.
Your average person is also not a trained ex-LEO/Vet.
Your "average" retired leo/vet that carries can't either.
Wait...."aim small, miss small" is from a movie? Or did it just get said in a movie?
m1a_scoutguy
08-18-18, 18:12
Wait...."aim small, miss small" is from a movie? Or did it just get said in a movie?
I think its from the Patriot with Mel Gibson. He said it to his sons before they ambushed the British patrol ! I like the ideal of the index cards but have not bought any yet, but I use this target a lot and if I'm making my normal range trips I do pretty good with my P-07. I have introduced this to some of my other shooting buddies and its a good target !
https://baersolutionsllc.com/freetargets Go to the Training Aids and its the 1st/Top target you can download and print. There are other good ones also.
I think its from the Patriot with Mel Gibson. He said it to his sons before they ambushed the British patrol ! .
I guess I haven't watched that movie in a long time.
m1a_scoutguy
08-18-18, 22:34
I guess I haven't watched that movie in a long time.
LOL,yea I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday but I can remember that from a movie from 2000 ! :)
I think the old SEAL Team 6 idea of using an index card has a lot going for it.
No matter the distance you need to shoot as fast as you can, while keeping all the shots on the card.
Gun fighting has a space, time factor. More space equals more time for getting a more accurate shot.
I agree with placing a 3 x 5 card high center mass on a realistic target is a decent standard to set for defensive accuracy. A 3 x 5 card folded in half, centered on the bridge of the nose, is a decent standard for brain housing group shot placement.
1) If you are not pushing your speed to the point you are hitting the edge of the card during training, in my opinion you need to pick up the pace to learn the limits of your ability to make a well placed shot with a pistol. 2) If you are not incorporating stress management into your firearms training, you are wasting your time.
I agree with placing a 3 x 5 card high center mass on a realistic target is a decent standard to set for defensive accuracy. A 3 x 5 card folded in half, centered on the bridge of the nose, is a decent standard for brain housing group shot placement.
1) If you are not pushing your speed to the point you are hitting the edge of the card during training, in my opinion you need to pick up the pace to learn the limits of your ability to make a well placed shot with a pistol. 2) If you are not incorporating stress management into your firearms training, you are wasting your time.
Agree with all this. I always get a kick out of people claiming sub 1sec draws... then you see its on a steel full size ipsc target.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.