The Combat Mindset: Do You Have it?

[Doc Safari]

I can't remember the trainer's name. Years ago I took a basic handgun class oriented around self-defense and mastering the basics.

Before even beginning the class, the trainer took each person aside individually, and asked, "In the event of a life-threatening encounter, do you think you could actually pull the trigger to harm another human being?"

If the interviewee hesitated in answering for even a moment, the trainer told the person, "I don't think you're ready to use a deadly force in an encounter. I'm refunding your money and not allowing you to take this class."

Of course, I answered that I was ready, and so got to take the class. I found out later from a friend of mine that disappeared from the class that he had been "disqualified" during the interview for "not having a combat mindset."

What's your opinion of this? Agree or disagree that if you're not ready to pull the trigger on another person then you are probably better off not carrying a weapon?

My dad's opinion, and that of other "old timers" I encountered when I was young, was that if you're not ready to fire the minute your iron clears leather, then you have no business carrying or even owning a defensive firearm.

My father drilled into me at a young age: "Never show your weapon unless you intend to draw. Never draw your weapon unless you intend to fire. Never fire unless you intend to kill." The theory being that if you don't have the mental state to destroy a perp without hesitation, then that person may very well have a momentary advantage where, in the heat of the moment, they can take your weapon away from you and use it against you.

It's sort of anecdotal that in the belief of some writers the best gunfighters in the Old West were not necessarily the fastest, but were the ones most willing to actually pull the trigger without hesitation.

I am of the opinion that teaching gunfighting skills is only part of the equation: It is equally important to teach a person who might potentially use a gun for self-defense to have the proper willingness to use those skills in a defensive encounter.

Though we all know that you should only use deadly force in a situation where deadly force is about to be used against you, it's important to always remember: Timidity and hesitation get you killed.

What's your opinion? Are mechanical skills enough? Or do you agree that the willingness to use them is equally or more important? Is there a way to teach the combat mindset, or is it something you either have or you don't?

[ramairthree]

It seems like 100% of LE, CCW permit holders, gun owners, and the military as a whole run around spouting nonsense about them being the sheep dogs and are that rare part of the population ideally suited with the mentality and physicality of being lethal, dangerous killers ideally suited for their purpose.

That’s a pretty big population for those rare mindset guys.
Nothing wrong with those guard dogs and a lot of them will be just fine using lethal force.

Go to a much smaller population.
The hardcore SOF guys.

The real mindset of just killers is heavily concentrated there. In combination with demonstrated physical ability and mental fortitude and resilience.
These are not guard dogs.
They are hunting wolves who have decided to selectively hunt.

Very different mindset.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

That is like asking someone if they are a bad-ass. To be frank, in modern society, if you don't hesitate to answer that question, you are going to run into problems. Hell, just with range safety rules jammed in our heads that literally have me thinking constantly "180" during stages, the replacing of human silhouette targets the pointing a gun at someone is an incredible change from normal operating procedure. And what does your answer mean? The question is stupid and the answer is meaningless. Is the reason that you'd hesitate or say no because of the lack of training and confidence with a gun? Not knowing all the legalities?

OK, fine ask the question- but as a baseline for asking the question after the class.

Frankly, I'd really question a basic handgun class from someone that would operate like that.

As we get more and more videos, especially from body cams, my main concern is identifying the situation. It seems most of those videos go from zero to gun fight in a split second.

[markm]

As we get more and more videos, especially from body cams, my main concern is identifying the situation. It seems most of those videos go from zero to gun fight in a split second.

That's my biggest worry. I have ZERO problem letting the air out of someone. But I have bad dreams about engaging in "bad shoots", and getting into legal trouble.

[AKDoug]

I think I might have issue with an instructor in a basic handgun class saying that. That sort of attitude in the beginning is a red flag for me towards the instructor, not the student.

In fact, I have an issue with a "basic" handgun class being geared towards anything other than "basic" firearms use. A basic class should be geared around fundamentals and safety. Nothing more. Many people will hesitate in answering that question before taking a class simply because they don't have the confidence yet at using a firearm in self defense.

My wife, who has taken several handgun classes is still not confident that she can shoot someone. Oddly enough, if you ask her if she has the ability to beat someone to death to defend herself or her children she wouldn't hesitate to say yes.

[Doc Safari]

The point is well-taken that there is probably a fine line between a willingness to use deadly force if necessary and an eagerness to use it. I get that.

But do you agree that hesitation in the actual gunfight can get you killed faster than not hesitating--IF--you are already sufficiently trained and/or experienced to instinctively know it's a good shoot?

In other words, if you know your skills and mindset already well enough to recognize when you can use deadly force and when you cannot, do you think hesitation is a detriment or an asset in a gunfight? Does that extra split second decision help you not pull the trigger unnecessarily, or does it cause you to maybe be.....dead?


My wife, who has taken several handgun classes is still not confident that she can shoot someone. Oddly enough, if you ask her if she has the ability to beat someone to death to defend herself or her children she wouldn't hesitate to say yes.

I think this is what the trainer in my class was getting at. The mother bear deprived of her cubs is not to be trifled with. But could the person have the same ability to address a deadly threat in a solo situation? Does that person take a chance on her own weapon being used against her because she might hesitate?

To answer the unstated question: I DO believe the trainer in my case was a local guy, ex-LEO just trying to branch out into making some money using his creds, IIRC. That was my opinion of him at the time, I think. That was in the early 1990's so I cannot even remember the guy's name. I don't think he still trains--at least not around here.

This area is the Wild West, literally and figuratively. It's not uncommon for someone to start a handgun class with no more credentials than (cough) running a gun shop.

[MegademiC]

I agree its backwards. You dont need a warrier mindset to learn, they are generally built together. Most people in a basic course are just learning, I know a lot of people who have ccw and train but dont know if they could pull the trigger.

I think most people end up doing the right thing, and the question at that level of instruction seems out of place to me.

[Doc Safari]

Here's another monkey wrench: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WILL REACT UNTIL YOU ARE IN THAT SITUATION.

Given.

But there is an old saying, "Chance favors the prepared mind."

Another might say, "Everyone hesitates. It's human nature." Just like it's human nature when your gun goes click to try to pull the trigger again. Only training overcomes this.

And so the question stands: Is hesitation good or bad?

Does it keep you from shooting someone who might not deserve it, or does it potentially put you in the cemetery?

[AKDoug]

The point is well-taken that there is probably a fine line between a willingness to use deadly force if necessary and an eagerness to use it. I get that.

But do you agree that hesitation in the actual gunfight can get you killed faster than not hesitating--IF--you are already sufficiently trained and/or experienced to instinctively know it's a good shoot?

In other words, if you know your skills and mindset already well enough to recognize when you can use deadly force and when you cannot, do you think hesitation is a detriment or an asset in a gunfight? Does that extra split second decision help you not pull the trigger unnecessarily, or does it cause you to maybe be.....dead?



I think this is what the trainer in my class was getting at. The mother bear deprived of her cubs is not to be trifled with. But could the person have the same ability to address a deadly threat in a solo situation?

To answer the unstated question: I DO believe the trainer in my case was a local guy, ex-LEO just trying to branch out into making some money using his creds, IIRC. That was my opinion of him at the time, I think. That was in the early 1990's so I cannot even remember the guy's name. I don't think he still trains--at least not around here.

The problem is, you prefaced this with the fact it was a "basic" class geared towards self defense. Rather than weed out the weak, take the opportunity to sharpen them. Honestly, I've seen classes full of people that don't hesitate at saying yes and the entire class was a train wreck. The whole premise is stupid. It's easy to say yes, it's hard to prove it. I'd far prefer a class full of thinkers that answer "it depends".. Mindset is a HUGE part of the equation, but without the training it's virtually worthless. You can still shape and teach mindset.

While it's not gunfighting, I've been a firefighter. I've seen a few guys that were all gung ho right up until the work began, then they hesitated. Luckily a fire is a slow moving thing (in most cases) compared to a gunfight, but the mindset can still be related. I had a guy that I worked with that constantly criticized every decision crews made and made a hobby of pointing out mistakes on youtube videos. When face with a dude that had his arm amputated above the elbow in a car crash he completely folded. The not very confident female that I worked with jumped right in and took care of the patient without hesitation. I truly believe you never know until you know.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

My issue is that you are asking someone a question that about feelings when the real situation would be more about innate reactions. Asking and answering the question are a totally different parts of the brain.

If you have the time to wonder if you should be getting into a gunfight, that time would have been better spent thinking about how NOT to get into a gun fight.

If there is a gun fight, you are going to be instinctively acting/re-acting and asking the question is meaningless since you're asking your cognitive function what your reactive self would do.

Sure, you can get that split second "It's on like Donkey Kong" before it happens. Locking up at that point isn't something that you can predict with a question.

[Doc Safari]

I'd far prefer a class full of thinkers that answer "it depends"..

Good point. I didn't want to bias the discussion, but even I had reservations about the trainer's attitude. I just wanted to get the discussion going.

Further, my dad's attitude is flawed as well: sometimes it IS appropriate to brandish if you can accurately assess the situation that showing you are armed is sufficient to send the perps flying. The trick is knowing when that's a good plan and when it's not.

Good discussion so far.

You guys are really thinking about this, I can tell.

[OH58D]

Not everyone is wired the same way. The first time I was ever shot at, it was small arms fire into my MH-6. Took a round in the windshield that fragmented and went into my right hand. Didn't know I was hit until I pulled off the blood-filled glove. Then adrenaline kicks in and I operated on a mix of training and anger. After the mission I was stitched up by a Navy Corpsman on the USS Independence and the adrenaline high wore off. I started getting sick to my stomach. I was 23 years old that October of 1983.

[soulezoo]

That's my biggest worry. I have ZERO problem letting the air out of someone. But I have bad dreams about engaging in "bad shoots", and getting into legal trouble.
That's my take as well. Not just for myself, but the harm it causes your loved ones too.

[BoringGuy45]

There seems to be a pretty large segment of the "sheepdog" population that believes that warriors are born, not made. When I was in field training at my old PD, I had an FTO who I found impossible to work with, as he insisted that if one lacked the instinct to figure out the job without being taught, no amount of training would help them. I was reminded over and over that I was wasting my time, and everyone else's, as I lacked traits that could be neither taught nor learned; I was either born for the job, or I wasn't, and since I wasn't, I had no business even trying.

The truth is, there are a lot of sheepdogs who want a large flock of sheep just as much as the wolves do. They want to be an elite class. They don't want to protect the sheep because it is their instinct to protect; they want to do it because it means they're better than the sheep, and the only ones worthy of respect. There are many "sheepdogs" who want the class to be so elite, that they consider the vast majority of other sheepdogs to be unworthy of holding the title. It sounds like the firearms trainer had an ego and basically just wanted to say that most will never be as good as him, and those not as good as him must remain sheep.

[soulezoo]

Not everyone is wired the same way. The first time I was ever shot at, it was small arms fire into my MH-6. Took a round in the windshield that fragmented and went into my right hand. Didn't know I was hit until I pulled off the blood-filled glove. Then adrenaline kicks in and I operated on a mix of training and anger. After the mission I was stitched up by a Navy Corpsman on the USS Independence and the adrenaline high wore off. I started getting sick to my stomach. I was 23 years old that October of 1983.

So funny. I have a similar take. That first time getting shot at your mind doesn't really register what is happening at first. I was 33 years old that April of 1996 on the streets of Sarajevo.

[SteyrAUG]

For me one of the most important aspects of a combat mindset is "accepting this is real and is actually happening right now" vs. "OMG I don't believe this is actually happening."

That is probably the most important criteria for people who carry weapons for personal defense rather than a willingness to "kill em all" and that sort of thing.

The next important step after being able to accept "this is real, this is happening right now" is of course the ability to actually do something about it and the willingness to do those things.

[Doc Safari]

There seems to be a pretty large segment of the "sheepdog" population that believes that warriors are born, not made. When I was in field training at my old PD, I had an FTO who I found impossible to work with, as he insisted that if one lacked the instinct to figure out the job without being taught, no amount of training would help them. I was reminded over and over that I was wasting my time, and everyone else's, as I lacked traits that could be neither taught nor learned; I was either born for the job, or I wasn't, and since I wasn't, I had no business even trying.

The truth is, there are a lot of sheepdogs who want a large flock of sheep just as much as the wolves do. They want to be an elite class. They don't want to protect the sheep because it is their instinct to protect; they want to do it because it means they're better than the sheep, and the only ones worthy of respect. There are many "sheepdogs" who want the class to be so elite, that they consider the vast majority of other sheepdogs to be unworthy of holding the title.

Good point, but aren't there people who are just naturally too timid to be much use in a self-defense situation?





It sounds like the firearms trainer had an ego and basically just wanted to say that most will never be as good as him, and those not as good as him must remain sheep.

True that.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I can think and discuss the topic ad nauseum. All I know, from less than lethal situations, but dire none the less, that when it comes to my siblings and kids, that I have little doubt that my 'trigger' would trip 'crisply' to protect them. Beyond that, maybe even for self preservation, till it happens I think the only answer is 'probably'.

[RetroRevolver77]

I can honestly say I've never met a single person who referred to themselves as a sheepdog.

[Todd.K]

Doesn't matter, especially in a basic class.

Some are already there, some will gain the confidence after taking a class or two, and some will never be willing.

[AKDoug]

Good point, but aren't there people who are just naturally too timid to be much use in a self-defense situation?




There absolutely are, but I think most of them can be trained to be aggressive enough to defend themselves.



I can honestly say I've never met a single person who referred to themselves as a sheepdog. God I have. It's the unfortunate side of attending lots of classes and being a range safety officer. I needed a box of scarlet "F"'s to hang around their necks.. for Fudd...

[Arik]

The point is well-taken that there is probably a fine line between a willingness to use deadly force if necessary and an eagerness to use it. I get that.

But do you agree that hesitation in the actual gunfight can get you killed faster than not hesitating--IF--you are already sufficiently trained and/or experienced to instinctively know it's a good shoot?

In other words, if you know your skills and mindset already well enough to recognize when you can use deadly force and when you cannot, do you think hesitation is a detriment or an asset in a gunfight? Does that extra split second decision help you not pull the trigger unnecessarily, or does it cause you to maybe be.....dead?



I think this is what the trainer in my class was getting at. The mother bear deprived of her cubs is not to be trifled with. But could the person have the same ability to address a deadly threat in a solo situation? Does that person take a chance on her own weapon being used against her because she might hesitate?

To answer the unstated question: I DO believe the trainer in my case was a local guy, ex-LEO just trying to branch out into making some money using his creds, IIRC. That was my opinion of him at the time, I think. That was in the early 1990's so I cannot even remember the guy's name. I don't think he still trains--at least not around here.

This area is the Wild West, literally and figuratively. It's not uncommon for someone to start a handgun class with no more credentials than (cough) running a gun shop.

Majority of self defense cases aren't from gunfights. Having your life in imminent danger doesn't mean it's a "gun fight". .

And many people who successfully defend themselves have never taken a class

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[RetroRevolver77]

God I have. It's the unfortunate side of attending lots of classes and being a range safety officer. I needed a box of scarlet "F"'s to hang around their necks.. for Fudd...


Why not just tell them, unless they've served actual combat tours- then they aren't sheepdogs.

[Arik]

Why not just tell them, unless they've served actual combat tours- then they aren't sheepdogs.Why bother. Asking for an argument. Blablablabla ....let them talk! I'm sure you've met your share of snipers who were about to kill Sadam but got a direct call from the Whitehouse to stand down!

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[Circle_10]

If we are sticking with animal metaphors it should be noted that it takes a rare breed of sheepdog to actually best a wolf in a confrontation. Most sheepdogs rely on sound and bluster to keep the wolves away from the flock but if they actually close with one they get their throats torn out or get "scalped" (Yes wolves are actually known to scalp dogs in fights by ripping their ears off) in short order. Meanwhile one of the leading causes of mortality of wolves in the wild is other wolves, not sheepdogs.

I like to look to the coyote for my own canine inspiration and take pains to stay out of the wolves' territory in the first place. I'll escape if I can, fight if I have to (and fight hard if need be) but discretion is the better part of valor and you win 100% of the fights you avoid.

[SteyrAUG]

If we are sticking with animal metaphors it should be noted that it takes a rare breed of sheepdog to actually best a wolf in a confrontation. Most sheepdogs rely on sound and bluster to keep the wolves away from the flock but if they actually close with one they get their throats torn out or get "scalped" (Yes wolves are actually known to scalp dogs in fights by ripping their ears off) in short order. Meanwhile one of the leading causes of mortality of wolves in the wild is other wolves, not sheepdogs.

I like to look to the coyote for my own canine inspiration and take pains to stay out of the wolves' territory in the first place. I'll escape if I can, fight if I have to (and fight hard if need be) but discretion is the better part of valor and you win 100% of the fights you avoid.

If we are doing metaphors then I want to be a rabid grizzly bear.

But honestly "sheepdog" is an apt metaphor for most CCW type, they aren't going to do much in the way of securing the sheep if the wolves actually do show up.

[MegademiC]

Here's another monkey wrench: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WILL REACT UNTIL YOU ARE IN THAT SITUATION.

Given.

But there is an old saying, "Chance favors the prepared mind."

Another might say, "Everyone hesitates. It's human nature." Just like it's human nature when your gun goes click to try to pull the trigger again. Only training overcomes this.

And so the question stands: Is hesitation good or bad?

Does it keep you from shooting someone who might not deserve it, or does it potentially put you in the cemetery?

My opinion?
I think its irrelevant to your OP.

Hesitation can be good or bad depending on the situation. A lot of black, white and gray areas.

[flenna]

If we are doing metaphors then I want to be a rabid grizzly bear.

But honestly "sheepdog" is an apt metaphor for most CCW type, they aren't going to do much in the way of securing the sheep if the wolves actually do show up.

I would be a rabbit. We raise rabbits and man, those little guys stay busy!

[HMM]

My father also drilled into me the same thing: "Never show your weapon unless you intend to draw. Never draw your weapon unless you intend to fire. Never fire unless you intend to kill."

As far as the animal metaphors, I prefer to look like all the other sheep in my yuppie clothes and flip flops. I just want to be a little better at spotting trouble and making sure I exit stage left with my fam before something bad happens. I don't ever want to have to show my weapon again. I've done it once years ago and almost cleared leather but a firm stance and strong words stopped the guy in his tracks. He immediately threw his hands up and did a 180 and left once he figured out we weren't going to be an easy target. Looking back I'd say I let the guy following us get too close before I acted. He was trying to get me to stop and I kept telling him to leave us alone but he just kept coming and closing the gap. But once I acted it was game on. My now wife saw a different side of me that night, I think she was just as shocked as the other guy when I turned and squared up to him. She has since never complained about me carrying or if I've turned around because I forgot to holster up before leaving the house.

[jpmuscle]

Can we as a community drop the “sheepdog” moniker? It’s like, hella gay.


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[C-grunt]

Dumb. I know several guys who have killed multiple people, that would probably hesitate at the sheer stupidity of that question.

[docsherm]

Can we as a community drop the “sheepdog” moniker? It’s like, hella gay.


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This is very true..... and disappointing that people think like this....

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Agreed. I identify as a carnivorous sheep trying to get the flock outta there, or as duct tape- something to keep things falling apart until the real fix gets there.

[ramairthree]

I can honestly say I've never met a single person who referred to themselves as a sheepdog.

How many IDPA matches have you been to?

[SteyrAUG]

Can we as a community drop the “sheepdog” moniker? It’s like, hella gay.


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You are probably directing this request to the wrong forum. I think this forum is already in strong agreement, it's everyone else who needs to get the memo.

Sheepdog was probably useful in 1975 to get an idea across to people who were still new to the idea of daily carry of a firearm. Today we can pretty much file it with the "I filed down the sear to make my AR-15 go full auto" crowd.

[Vegas]

For me one of the most important aspects of a combat mindset is "accepting this is real and is actually happening right now" vs. "OMG I don't believe this is actually happening."

That is probably the most important criteria for people who carry weapons for personal defense rather than a willingness to "kill em all" and that sort of thing.



I think there is a lot of truth in this. There are people who talk about what they would do in a given situation but it's all BS. Until you get caught in a situation where shit goes sideways, you just don't know. I was present for a unfortunate incident earlier this year and looking in the wrong direction. When it all went south instinct kicked in and I was barely in control of what I was doing. It took me several seconds to get out of that time stretched, wading in molasses feeling before I could evaluate the threat. The event changed my whole thinking on this sort of stuff and my readiness.

[Averageman]

You can have the very best equipment, you can be trained and you can practice and you can drill. Every situation is going to be different and at any time when things go bad, you're likely to react differently, hesitate for a moment or be just a little slower as you process before acting.
Mindset and instinct may be key, preparation essential, but everyone has a bad day and even the bad guys get lucky sometimes.

Refusing to train someone based upon their initial reaction to a question about being capable to do violence only insures that they wont be trained when they need to do violence.

[Dienekes]

An FM I like is Aristotle’s “Nichomachean Ethics”. He favors the mean in courage as in most things: “The man, then, who faces and who fears the right things and from the right motive, in the right way and at the right time, and who feels confident under the corresponding conditions, is brave...courage is noble...it is for a noble end that the brave man endures and acts as courage directs.”

He elaborates a little more. But it’s worth remembering that in his day the citizen-soldier was the norm.

Steven Pressfield’s historical novel, “Gates of Fire” really explores this at length.

[SteyrAUG]

Refusing to train someone based upon their initial reaction to a question about being capable to do violence only insures that they wont be trained when they need to do violence.

Hopefully it means they go get useful training elsewhere. And yeah that really was one of the dumbest things I've read about in awhile.

[Doc Safari]

Hopefully it means they go get useful training elsewhere. And yeah that really was one of the dumbest things I've read about in awhile.

My hope is that the guy wanted his students to think long and hard about carrying a firearm and to appreciate the seriousness of using it in a self-defense situation. In a way, he was cutting his own throat by refusing the revenue he might have gotten from a person he asked to leave. Not knowing his motivation, the guy might have been thinking about it from an angle we can't even imagine but it just seemed counterproductive.

My "gut" tells me he was trying to cultivate a "brand" based on exclusivity: i.e., not just anyone is lucky enough to take his class.

[Arik]

Neh it just sounds like he was trying to be a tough guy

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[SteyrAUG]

My "gut" tells me he was trying to cultivate a "brand" based on exclusivity: i.e., not just anyone is lucky enough to take his class.

But the reality is, in his first lesson he excluded those who needed useful training the most. If the rest of the class were "hand to god" death dealing merchants ready to fill the heavens, then they probably didn't need his class.

Reminds me of all the ex spentz people who talked about 360 degree ranges and working downrange because that is what it is really like and all the people who were never going to be in a situation signed up for it so they could dabble in what they thought they were missing out on and come out the other end feeling like a real deal Delta ninja Seal.

I've heard them talk about their classes as if they had been in Vietnam during Tet.

[mark5pt56]

If you are able, take a well organized, structured with purpose class involving simunitions. You will be surprised as to people actions, lack thereof and other "odd" things. And this reflects somewhat on the sheep dog and wolves analogy.

[Moose-Knuckle]

What's your opinion of this? Agree or disagree that if you're not ready to pull the trigger on another person then you are probably better off not carrying a weapon?

I would have to agree with this. Mindset is everything and the weapon is between your ears not the tool in your hand.

“The final weapon is the brain, all else is supplemental.” ― John Steinbeck




My dad's opinion, and that of other "old timers" I encountered when I was young, was that if you're not ready to fire the minute your iron clears leather, then you have no business carrying or even owning a defensive firearm.

My father drilled into me at a young age: "Never show your weapon unless you intend to draw. Never draw your weapon unless you intend to fire. Never fire unless you intend to kill." The theory being that if you don't have the mental state to destroy a perp without hesitation, then that person may very well have a momentary advantage where, in the heat of the moment, they can take your weapon away from you and use it against you.

My dad is a member of the Silent Generation, sounds like your's is too. When I was of age and moved out he bought me a .357 Magnum and a copy of Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense. Still have both and re-read it at least yearly.




It's sort of anecdotal that in the belief of some writers the best gunfighters in the Old West were not necessarily the fastest, but were the ones most willing to actually pull the trigger without hesitation.

Don't know about best but one of the most if not the most successful gunfighter in the Old West was Wyatt Earp who put it this way; "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry."



I am of the opinion that teaching gunfighting skills is only part of the equation: It is equally important to teach a person who might potentially use a gun for self-defense to have the proper willingness to use those skills in a defensive encounter.

Though we all know that you should only use deadly force in a situation where deadly force is about to be used against you, it's important to always remember: Timidity and hesitation get you killed.

What's your opinion? Are mechanical skills enough? Or do you agree that the willingness to use them is equally or more important? Is there a way to teach the combat mindset, or is it something you either have or you don't?

I agree.

If you haven't already, read some of Dave Grossman's books.

https://www.amazon.com/default/e/B001H6MBBM/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1?redirectedFromKindleDbs=true


Paul Howe put out a video on the subject matter entitled Combat Mindset that is excellent.

[AndyLate]

I was a technical instructor for over 10 years, and have been in the business of training for over 20. I keep coming around to expecting the basic class to foster that "combat mentality" through instruction and drills.

Andy

[RetroRevolver77]

There needs to be a progression. It all begins with developing hand to hand combatives, later learning to fight using Escrima Kali sticks to develop range or offhand trapping, then later learning to effectively use edged weapons to learn controls or instant disabling, and finally progressing toward firearms. Some would say, that's just stupid- I got a pistol or a carbine, I'll just train with that. Well you'll get gutted before you can clear leather by someone whose close enough with a knife that knows how to use it. When weapons are involved, the stakes are higher, so teaching people how to fight with all forms of weapons is a great way to develop that survival mindset and more importantly coordination, stepping, moving etc. You might have to trap someone's hand to keep them from pulling a weapon before you can get to your own weapon. I've trained extensively in fighting with edged weapons, mainly Kali or JKD, so for me- I might go for a knife instead of my CCW under certain limited situations. Though I feel confident with either.

[Arik]

There needs to be a progression. It all begins with developing hand to hand combatives, later learning to fight using Escrima Kali sticks to develop range or offhand trapping, then later learning to effectively use edged weapons to learn controls or instant disabling, and finally progressing toward firearms. Some would say, that's just stupid- I got a pistol or a carbine, I'll just train with that. Well you'll get gutted before you can clear leather by someone whose close enough with a knife that knows how to use it. When weapons are involved, the stakes are higher, so teaching people how to fight with all forms of weapons is a great way to develop that survival mindset and more importantly coordination, stepping, moving etc. You might have to trap someone's hand to keep them from pulling a weapon before you can get to your own weapon. I've trained extensively in fighting with edged weapons, mainly Kali or JKD, so for me- I might go for a knife instead of my CCW under certain limited situations. Though I feel confident with either.

So is that what you did?

When do you start? Sounds like it'll be a good 20 years before an avg person could own a firearm.

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[RetroRevolver77]

So is that what you did?

When do you start? Sounds like it'll be a good 20 years before an avg person could own a firearm.

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I've owned firearms since I was a kid. Just saying, learn to actually fight in addition to doing the firearms training. It all goes back to the same mindset. Have some type of martial arts that you can fall back on as an additional tool just in case.

[Arik]

I've owned firearms since I was a kid. Just saying, learn to actually fight in addition to doing the firearms training. It all goes back to the same mindset. Have some type of martial arts that you can fall back on as an additional tool just in case.So what do you say to someone who just want a gun for self defense because they moved into a bad neighborhood or their area is slowly becoming worse? No sorry first go spend decades learning karate and knife skills and maybe by the time you master that and you're not 90 years old yet.... maybe then you can start to think about a gun?

Not everyone grows up with guns. I'm the first person in my family to buy a firearm. What do I do then? I bought my first rifle at 18 in 1998. My first handgun in 2001. By your logic I should still be practicing karate and shit and shouldn't be thinking about firearms

Just saying

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[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Everyone always worries about the perfect way, instead of the good enough way. How long are the actual small arms parts of Army basic or POST training? Everyone wants people to have all this training, but in reality, thousands of people defend themselves with little more than was handed down to them by Grandpa, dad and a helpful uncle. Sure, more training, more skills with more weapons and mindset training would be awesome. Not going to happen for 95% of CCW carriers. Having said that, it is amazing what untrained people do when it comes to defending themselves. Just like the other side screams about shoot outs in day cares if CCW passes, our side seems to think that unless you have trained for years, there is no way you can prevail in a gun fight. Remember, 99.99% of the bad guys are winging it too. While they often can have freakish success against LEO officers, the BGs are tuned in and aware that they are going to be in a gun fight- and the LEO isn't. The tables are turned on BGs trying to rape or rob people.

Kind of like the joke where the hitchhiker gets in the car and asks the driver if they were worried that they were picking up a serial killer- to which the driver responds- "What are the chances to two serial killers in one car, Hahahahaha."

Sure, get training, get your headspace correctly set, get the gun set up right and carry it. Frankly, keeping your head out of the phone and seeing things more than 5 yards away is the real skill. Nearly makes you Sun Tzu nowadays.

[Outlander Systems]

The reason bad guys have a high k/d ratio is because an ambush always favors the ambusher.

[SteyrAUG]

Everyone always worries about the perfect way, instead of the good enough way. How long are the actual small arms parts of Army basic or POST training? Everyone wants people to have all this training, but in reality, thousands of people defend themselves with little more than was handed down to them by Grandpa, dad and a helpful uncle. Sure, more training, more skills with more weapons and mindset training would be awesome. Not going to happen for 95% of CCW carriers. Having said that, it is amazing what untrained people do when it comes to defending themselves. Just like the other side screams about shoot outs in day cares if CCW passes, our side seems to think that unless you have trained for years, there is no way you can prevail in a gun fight. Remember, 99.99% of the bad guys are winging it too. While they often can have freakish success against LEO officers, the BGs are tuned in and aware that they are going to be in a gun fight- and the LEO isn't. The tables are turned on BGs trying to rape or rob people.

Kind of like the joke where the hitchhiker gets in the car and asks the driver if they were worried that they were picking up a serial killer- to which the driver responds- "What are the chances to two serial killers in one car, Hahahahaha."

Sure, get training, get your headspace correctly set, get the gun set up right and carry it. Frankly, keeping your head out of the phone and seeing things more than 5 yards away is the real skill. Nearly makes you Sun Tzu nowadays.

And common sense prevails again.

A lot of people worry about being Delta qualified when it comes to this stuff but the reality is unless you deliberately insert yourself into events and environments where bad outcomes are likely, it's probably never gonna happen.

BGs are looking for victims, people they perceive as "the most vulnerable." If they even think you are carrying, or even have a pocket knife and the willingness to use it, they are gonna keep looking for an easier target.

This isn't to say simply having a gun is all you need to make bad guys run in fear of their life, because sometimes they are just violent, vicious people looking for ANY victim, but that's less likely to happen.

Certainly get any and all the training you feel is necessary or relevant. I consider myself over trained, not that I'm just so damn good, but I've been taught a LOT of stuff that I will likely never, ever need for the rest of my life unless I decide to move to Borneo or Detroit.

I get a lot of benefit from 40+ years as a martial artist as well, and there is some crossover, but I train because I enjoy the martial arts, not because I think the world is going to go "Road Warrior" on me and then those katana skills will be relevant.

And finally, if the subject is firearms proficiency, start THERE. You can later supplement mental conditioning, unarmed supplemental skills, contingency skills based upon being injured, etc. But the first month should be safe handling, decent presentation and sighting skills and clean trigger breaks.

If you want to learn to swim, it doesn't really happen in the classroom, it happens in the water. Might as well get in the water and learn to tread water. With guns, basic safety and basic marksmanship.

[Arik]

And common sense prevails again.

A lot of people worry about being Delta qualified when it comes to this stuff but the reality is unless you deliberately insert yourself into events and environments where bad outcomes are likely, it's probably never gonna happen.

BGs are looking for victims, people they perceive as "the most vulnerable." If they even think you are carrying, or even have a pocket knife and the willingness to use it, they are gonna keep looking for an easier target.

This isn't to say simply having a gun is all you need to make bad guys run in fear of their life, because sometimes they are just violent, vicious people looking for ANY victim, but that's less likely to happen.

Certainly get any and all the training you feel is necessary or relevant. I consider myself over trained, not that I'm just so damn good, but I've been taught a LOT of stuff that I will likely never, ever need for the rest of my life unless I decide to move to Borneo or Detroit.

I get a lot of benefit from 40+ years as a martial artist as well, and there is some crossover, but I train because I enjoy the martial arts, not because I think the world is going to go "Road Warrior" on me and then those katana skills will be relevant.

And finally, if the subject is firearms proficiency, start THERE. You can later supplement mental conditioning, unarmed supplemental skills, contingency skills based upon being injured, etc. But the first month should be safe handling, decent presentation and sighting skills and clean trigger breaks.

If you want to learn to swim, it doesn't really happen in the classroom, it happens in the water. Might as well get in the water and learn to tread water. With guns, basic safety and basic marksmanship.Exactly. Not saying training is unnecessary or irrelevant. Far from it. But most people who defend themselves successfully with a firearm have less than 1k rounds a year at the range. It just is! Almost none of them are doing matches or classes. I'm my city a year ago a older man was walking his dog at night. Some kid walked up with a GUN and threatened the older guy with bodily harm. This older guy pulls out a Ruger Sp101 and plants a 357 in between the kid's eyes. No karate no ninja, no knife training, not even gun training.

A few years ago older couple walking their dog got attacked by hoodlems simply because the man looked at them "wrong". They pushed him down and proceeded to stump him for a few seconds. ..till he put a .45 into each of them! Again.... regular people, no ninja training, no natural born Killa attitude no multiple trained aggressors in ski masks and MP5 attacking from different angles. Just someone who defending themselves

The avg criminal is an opportunist, not a James Bond villain

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[Pappabear]

I would take immediate action given the situation was glaringly obvious. Walking into a mass shooting etc. Or if someone is taking the offensive to me, no doubt. But to be the good guy in a bad situation would require a minute. I don't want to spend years in prison because some lawyer and prosecuter can convince a group of idiots that I am potentially in the wrong. Gunna have to pause in that situation.

PB

[SteyrAUG]

I would take immediate action given the situation was glaringly obvious. Walking into a mass shooting etc. Or if someone is taking the offensive to me, no doubt. But to be the good guy in a bad situation would require a minute. I don't want to spend years in prison because some lawyer and prosecuter can convince a group of idiots that I am potentially in the wrong. Gunna have to pause in that situation.

PB

As will most of us. Most criminals don't walk up and say "Hi, I'm a bad guy and I intend to rob you." Shit happens, and while it's in progress you have to try and figure out what is going on and then arrive at a solution.

I know cops who have been in a shoot situation where they did every single thing correctly, but the funny thing is they spent a good hour thinking they had done nearly everything wrong. I can think of one instance where the LEO was convinced he shot a responding officer and missed the bad guy completely.

Turns out after everyone gave statements and viewed dash cam footage that he actually saved the responding officer and was the ONLY person who shot the bad guy. But he was absolutely positive it all went wrong until he saw the footage and talked to other officers.

Strange things happen will bullets fly and seems everyone gets their own individual perception of events. Anyone who has ever been in a serious car accident has some idea what this is like when time goes slow and you remember things differently, especially if you weren't prepared for the accident and your brain started processing information as it was happening.

[flenna]

As will most of us. Most criminals don't walk up and say "Hi, I'm a bad guy and I intend to rob you." Shit happens, and while it's in progress you have to try and figure out what is going on and then arrive at a solution.

I know cops who have been in a shoot situation where they did every single thing correctly, but the funny thing is they spent a good hour thinking they had done nearly everything wrong. I can think of one instance where the LEO was convinced he shot a responding officer and missed the bad guy completely.

Turns out after everyone gave statements and viewed dash cam footage that he actually saved the responding officer and was the ONLY person who shot the bad guy. But he was absolutely positive it all went wrong until he saw the footage and talked to other officers.

Strange things happen will bullets fly and seems everyone gets their own individual perception of events. Anyone who has ever been in a serious car accident has some idea what this is like when time goes slow and you remember things differently, especially if you weren't prepared for the accident and your brain started processing information as it was happening.

This is why, if you are involved in any act of self defense, you do not want to give a statement right away. Tell the responding officers you want to go to the hospital,you cannot breathe, you are scared and having an anxiety attack, etc.... Give yourself time to process what happened and clear your mind before giving a statement. Call your attorney if you got one.

[Campbell]

This is why, if you are involved in any act of self defense, you do not want to give a statement right away. Tell the responding officers you want to go to the hospital,you cannot breathe, you are scared and having an anxiety attack, etc.... Give yourself time to process what happened and clear your mind before giving a statement. Call your attorney if you got one.


Spot on.

[26 Inf]

This is why, if you are involved in any act of self defense, you do not want to give a statement right away. Tell the responding officers you want to go to the hospital,you cannot breathe, you are scared and having an anxiety attack, etc.... Give yourself time to process what happened and clear your mind before giving a statement. Call your attorney if you got one.

If you are not going to be arrested, make an appointment to talk with Detectives, the next day, after you have had a sleep cycle. If they give you any guff tell them you need time to secure an attorney. Come with an attorney.

If you feel you have to make a statement to keep from getting arrested, be as general as possible 'I was turning away from the ATM with my cash when this guy closed on me with a knife. I feared for my life and I used my pistol to protect myself. I don't feel comfortable saying anything else without advice from my attorney.'

You want to avoid saying to much about specific details until after you have had time to decompress - the sleep cycle thing - because your recollection will be keener after the sleep cycle and you don't want to have to walk back anything you said earlier.

And before the incident, don't waste your time reading anything Grossman or anyone else wrote UNTIL you have read and digested 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin Debecker.

[RetroRevolver77]

So what do you say to someone who just want a gun for self defense because they moved into a bad neighborhood or their area is slowly becoming worse? No sorry first go spend decades learning karate and knife skills and maybe by the time you master that and you're not 90 years old yet.... maybe then you can start to think about a gun?

Not everyone grows up with guns. I'm the first person in my family to buy a firearm. What do I do then? I bought my first rifle at 18 in 1998. My first handgun in 2001. By your logic I should still be practicing karate and shit and shouldn't be thinking about firearms

Just saying

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It doesn't take that long to become somewhat proficient with certain fighting styles, Krav, BJJ, JKD, Kali etc. Within six months, a year- you would know more than you know now. If you are being attacked, it's almost always by complete surprise in scenarios where you would least expect it. A fighting style is just another tool for the toolbox and it's never to late to start training. Think about it.

[SteyrAUG]

It doesn't take that long to become somewhat proficient with certain fighting styles, Krav, BJJ, JKD, Kali etc. Within six months, a year- you would know more than you know now. If you are being attacked, it's almost always by complete surprise in scenarios where you would least expect it. A fighting style is just another tool for the toolbox and it's never to late to start training. Think about it.

All true, but I think the point was there shouldn't be a "pre requisite" to firearms for defense. I know as martial artists we sometimes get frustrated with the "I have a gun, I don't need no karate" crowd so I know where you are coming from.

And I think most people appreciate the philosophy of "cover ALL the bases" and probably get that as well. I have also probably been just as guilty of expressing enthusiasm for a martial based foundation for ALL aspects of personal defense, but sometimes in our enthusiasm we forget we are not talking about people who are going on a "life journey" but jumping head first in the "personal defense" well into adulthood....and they have a gun.

Hard enough to get them to go get training beyond "basic gun safety" let alone all the peripheral aspects of personal defense. So sometimes we have to be practical and accept what is realistic. Just as we would not waste the time of somebody in their 40s who is maybe 40 lbs. overweight trying to get them to master a jump spinning back kick because there are far more useful things they could be working on, we have to sometimes realize that the guy working 50 hours a week to make ends meet, living check to check and raising a kid might not have the time for the "training program" we might otherwise advocate and we'll come up with a "something that is better than nothing" solution.

Now if we have a guy who wants to work in the field of executive protection and has 8 hours a day to devote to supplemental training then of course we are going to give him the complete jedi apprentice experience.

But for the average person, who I know isn't going to go take a bunch of classes, I tell them to get a blue gun and holster it as they would their carry weapon and then get together with their buddies and play a little "kill the guy with the ball" where both people fight to access and control the blue gun. It might be very unsophisticated but it gets everyone going in the right direction and they grasp some real world fundamentals about how much they can actually get to their gun when being attacked or even keep it.

Hell I can remember academy cadets on a wrestling mat and somebody would through a rubber gun on the floor between them and say "Fight for it." It's at least a starting point.

[Ed L.]

It doesn't take that long to become somewhat proficient with certain fighting styles, Krav, BJJ, JKD, Kali etc. Within six months, a year- you would know more than you know now. If you are being attacked, it's almost always by complete surprise in scenarios where you would least expect it. A fighting style is just another tool for the toolbox and it's never to late to start training. Think about it.

The great thing about a firearm is it can put a senior citizen on equal footing with a professional boxer.

The armed citizen section of American Rifleman magazine as well as news reports are filled with accounts of people with zero martial arts training who successfully defended themself with a firearm.

I do believe that it behooves everyone to have effective unarmed training because there may be situations that only justify unarmed skills and there are also situations where you may need the unarmed skills to be able to get to your firearm.

However I would not say that one needs X amount of unarmed skills, and then knife and stick skills before you should or can train with a firearm.

[Doc Safari]

The reason bad guys have a high k/d ratio is because an ambush always favors the ambusher.

This is true. One of the classes I took while in law enforcement still echoes in my head: The attacker has the advantage. IIRC the instructor claimed that an attacker with a knife can fatally wound you before you can draw and fire your concealed weapon. I hope I never test that theory. It was either a video or that instructor's opinion.

[Dienekes]

I’m afraid your old instructor was right. The old Street Survival (Calibre Press) video on Edged Weapons was an eye opener.

[GTF425]

This is true. One of the classes I took while in law enforcement still echoes in my head: The attacker has the advantage. IIRC the instructor claimed that an attacker with a knife can fatally wound you before you can draw and fire your concealed weapon. I hope I never test that theory. It was either a video or that instructor's opinion.

I think our LEOs can chime in on this, but I’ve heard it referred to as the 21-foot rule.

Having seen enough people ****ed up with edged weapons, and training in silat, I hope I never find myself either in a knife fight or having to defend against one. No one walks away clean, and I’d rather just be shot. I ran a guy sliced up with a boxcutter a few months ago, and **** that. **** everything about that.

[flenna]

I’m afraid your old instructor was right. The old Street Survival (Calibre Press) video on Edged Weapons was an eye opener.

Good film. I saw this at the academy 25 years ago and it made an big impression on me then.

[26 Inf]

I think our LEOs can chime in on this, but I’ve heard it referred to as the 21-foot rule.

Too many folks over simplify that.

What Tueller found out was that an unprepared person (weapon in holster, not aware attack was imminent) would not have time to react and draw in the time an aggressive person could cover 21-foot.

That doesn't mean 21-foot is the line of death if a guy draws a knife and threatens you, without advancing. He needs to be closing the gap.

If you watch the orignal tapes, and IIRC, the Surviving Edged Weapons tape, most (I think all) the examples show the stand your ground and draw response. Generally movement off the threat axis is an important component of any threat response.

[SteyrAUG]

Too many folks over simplify that.

What Tueller found out was that an unprepared person (weapon in holster, not aware attack was imminent) would not have time to react and draw in the time an aggressive person could cover 21-foot.

That doesn't mean 21-foot is the line of death if a guy draws a knife and threatens you, without advancing. He needs to be closing the gap.

If you watch the orignal tapes, and IIRC, the Surviving Edged Weapons tape, most (I think all) the examples show the stand your ground and draw response. Generally movement off the threat axis is an important component of any threat response.

I very much remember watching that since it features both Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje. I remember the segment where they are popping balloons with a knife with amazing speed. Also features James Phillips who was the first LEO to introduce and create law enforcement applications for the nunchaku.

He even worked with Monadnock to create a specific law enforcement nunchaku as a compliance tool.

[Averageman]

Having seen enough people ****ed up with edged weapons, and training in silat, I hope I never find myself either in a knife fight or having to defend against one. No one walks away clean, and I’d rather just be shot. I ran a guy sliced up with a boxcutter a few months ago, and **** that. **** everything about that.
I think there are a lot of folks out there who operate on an odd level of ignorance, a little bubble they are comfortable in and with.
Physical violence is as foreign to them as walking on the surface of the moon. They can honestly look you in the eye and espouse nonviolence because they have never seen the results of some violence.
Those folks are operating in the very same world with some straight up, reptilian brain killers. Those guys with no remorse, dead eyes and a real lack of human feelings or control. If you can say "I could never kill." you've just not seen enough motivation to survive and encounter with one of these animals.
As I have aged, I have learned. As I have observed humanity or the lack thereof for going on six decades now, I'm not always impressed.

[SteyrAUG]

I think there are a lot of folks out there who operate on an odd level of ignorance, a little bubble they are comfortable in and with.
Physical violence is as foreign to them as walking on the surface of the moon. They can honestly look you in the eye and espouse nonviolence because they have never seen the results of some violence.
Those folks are operating in the very same world with some straight up, reptilian brain killers. Those guys with no remorse, dead eyes and a real lack of human feelings or control. If you can say "I could never kill." you've just not seen enough motivation to survive and encounter with one of these animals.
As I have aged, I have learned. As I have observed humanity or the lack thereof for going on six decades now, I'm not always impressed.

What's even scarier are the guys who sound plausible when they say things like "I could never do that man, I could never hurt somebody like that" but the fact is they have already raped and murdered children.

[Averageman]

What's even scarier are the guys who sound plausible when they say things like "I could never do that man, I could never hurt somebody like that" but the fact is they have already raped and murdered children.

The perfect sociopath probably believes it himself.

[RetroRevolver77]

The great thing about a firearm is it can put a senior citizen on equal footing with a professional boxer.

The armed citizen section of American Rifleman magazine as well as news reports are filled with accounts of people with zero martial arts training who successfully defended themself with a firearm.

I do believe that it behooves everyone to have effective unarmed training because there may be situations that only justify unarmed skills and there are also situations where you may need the unarmed skills to be able to get to your firearm.

However I would not say that one needs X amount of unarmed skills, and then knife and stick skills before you should or can train with a firearm.


I trained under a student of Danny Inosanto, the man featured in the video below.

My personal view is that you absolutely need some form of fighting technique before you should even think about carrying a weapon- any weapon.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BNkOTTRW9o

[flenna]

I trained under a student of Danny Inosanto, the man featured in the video below.

My personal view is that you absolutely need some form of fighting technique before you should even think about carrying a weapon- any weapon.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BNkOTTRW9o

So martial arts training and proficiency should be a prerequisite to owning a firearm? There is a reason that Samuel Colt called his revolver the Great Equalizer. My wife may not be able to go toe to toe with a trained kung fu master but if he threatened her or our family she could, and would, put a .38 special between his eyes faster than he could say "hi-ya!".

[Averageman]

Prerequisite no, helpful yes.

[pinzgauer]

I personally find the idea that you "need" martial arts training to before owning a firearm laughable.

I know multiple belted extremely trained martial arts types that I would never trust at my back not to freeze.

And some crusty bubba's who would shoot someone dead and not think twice. (Think farmers in overalls, feedstore hat and a squint)

Same for hardened inner city youth.

I'd make the argument that successful big game hunters have a better likelihood of not freezing than many MA types I know.

I'm sure there are very capable ninjas out there. I've just not met many of them.

This is not to dis the idea of MA combat oriented training, just that I find the blanket statement that it's a must silly. ("All generalisms are false")

[pinzgauer]

This also does not mean that there are not MA types (even females) who could give me a thrashing in hand to hand.

But that's not what we are talking about here.

[6933]

I’ve trained BJJ for a long time and know of several instances where good ground/stand up guys got beat on the street b/c of gym mentality. I bounced in college and got down on the street multiple times as well as two times while living on Sint Maarten when wife(girlfriend) was pushed/threatened in aftermath of Hurricane Lenny. It was a free for all in days after Lenny devastated the island and local guys were bad about harassing tourist women in right circumstances.

As far as being ready, willing, able to draw/shoot, been shot at twice. Some guys I was with just froze. When I was 12-14, my mother had a stalker. When he was kicking in the front door one night, my mom had a .38 and was shaking like a leaf in a storm. She turned to me and said, “You are going to have to do it.” I was 14. The scenario of what would happen if I didn’t made the decision easy. Something clicked inside of me and what I knew of right/wrong told me it was ok and the best course of action was to light guy up with a 20ga. at around 12ft. Father’s friends(ex-BTDT’s)had counseled us where to set up(fatal funnel) since the stalking had been ongoing for yrs. and had recently escalated.

Thankfully stalker decided to stop forcing entry but I would have shot and killed him; no doubt. The alternative was unacceptable and my religious beliefs and personal compass all told me it was perfectly acceptable to defend my family even to the point of taking another life. It wouldn’t have been murder, it would have been defense of life, preventing rape, torture, etc. In my belief system that is acceptable.

[RetroRevolver77]

So martial arts training and proficiency should be a prerequisite to owning a firearm?


In my opinion- if you want to carry a firearm, you should also have some basic hand to hand fighting skills.

Kali is probably the best overall style for edged weapons training and learning how to deflect short range attacks- buying time to retrieve a firearm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFYLjGFKis

[Arik]

In my opinion- if you want to carry a firearm, you should also have some basic hand to hand fighting skills.

Kali is probably the best overall style for edged weapons training and learning how to deflect short range attacks- buying time to retrieve a firearm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFYLjGFKisSo what do people who don't have time for basic hand to hand skills do? Just resort to being a victim? - I'm your opinion!

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[Doc Safari]

In my opinion- if you want to carry a firearm, you should also have some basic hand to hand fighting skills.



In an ideal world--okay. But the reason a lot of old timers carry firearms is that they know hand-to-hand just gets your ass kicked at an advanced age.

Unfortunately, defending yourself with a firearm is only as good as your tactical situation allows anyway. Multiple assailants can put you in the cemetery before you get more than a couple rounds off. That's why correctional officers don't carry guns, M'Kay?

[SteyrAUG]

In my opinion- if you want to carry a firearm, you should also have some basic hand to hand fighting skills.

Kali is probably the best overall style for edged weapons training and learning how to deflect short range attacks- buying time to retrieve a firearm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFYLjGFKis

Well here is the first problem I see. Nobody is going to draw a knife any faster than a gun.

The second problem is nobody is going to be able to apply real world "hand to hand" fighting skills any more effectively in the beginning than they are going to be able to apply "basic marksmanship." You are also assuming their reaction time "unarmed" will be any better than their "armed response" reaction time.

Also the 21 foot "rule" is more of a guideline than a rule. Bob Munden regularly violated the rules of physics when it came to armed response time. He was one of the few guy on a short list who would have shot Dan twice before Dan even got a knife out.

So again we have to go back to regular "I don't know anything" kinds of people. It takes a LONG time to turn them into fighters or gunfighters. But in my experience is easier and more practical to make them a gun fighter and strongly stress the situational awareness aspects to compensate for "engagement time."

Teaching them simple things like "protecting your draw" with your non shooting hand goes a long way towards taking up the slack in a novice shooter.

[Doc Safari]

. But in my experience is easier and more practical to make them a gun fighter and strongly stress the situational awareness aspects to compensate for "engagement time."




FINALLY on page eight someone talks about situational awareness. I was hoping someone would grab onto this right away.

We all know we may hesitate in the event of a self-defense situation.

We all know we may be shit out of luck if we're outnumbered.

We all know a perp can fatally wound us with a knife before we can draw and fire our concealed carry pistol.

Ergo: the best fighting skill IS TO AVOID THE FIGHT.

This is the fundamental basis for the COMBAT MINDSET. (IMHO).

One should always be aware of the tactical scenario and act accordingly.

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled into a parking lot, only to back out immediately if there were a bunch of guys hanging around that looked a little "iffy." I can't tell you how many rest stops I've passed up on a road trip and peed at the side of the road instead because the rest stops just weren't very brightly lit or I couldn't see the driver of the "other" car there at 3 am. I can't tell you how many times I've parked in the emptiest, best-lit portion of the Wal-Mart parking lot because anyone approaching me would be seen from 50 yards away. I can't tell you how many times I went right back into a restaurant because the guy twenty paces behind me seemed to be "following" me.

[MountainRaven]

I trained under a student of Danny Inosanto, the man featured in the video below.

My personal view is that you absolutely need some form of fighting technique before you should even think about carrying a weapon- any weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BNkOTTRW9o


https://youtu.be/KDOOKWKM3wM

[Moose-Knuckle]

This is why, if you are involved in any act of self defense, you do not want to give a statement right away.

You never give a statement.

“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney."




Tell the responding officers you want to go to the hospital,you cannot breathe, you are scared and having an anxiety attack, etc....

No. You tell the responding officers and the detective they will be calling to the scene that you invoke your right to counsel.



Give yourself time to process what happened and clear your mind before giving a statement.

Again, never give a statement. This only happens upon approval of your attorney and in their presence.



Call your attorney if you got one.

If you own a gun, if you CCW a gun, if you carry a gun for a living and you do not already have a law firm that specializes in self-defense case law on retainer and have their 24 hour hotline programmed into your phone you are doing it wrong. The time to shop for an attorney and hire them is NOW not after an incident.






If you are not going to be arrested, make an appointment to talk with Detectives, the next day, after you have had a sleep cycle. If they give you any guff tell them you need time to secure an attorney. Come with an attorney.

If you feel you have to make a statement to keep from getting arrested, be as general as possible 'I was turning away from the ATM with my cash when this guy closed on me with a knife. I feared for my life and I used my pistol to protect myself. I don't feel comfortable saying anything else without advice from my attorney.'

You want to avoid saying to much about specific details until after you have had time to decompress - the sleep cycle thing - because your recollection will be keener after the sleep cycle and you don't want to have to walk back anything you said earlier.

See above responses.

[RetroRevolver77]

https://youtu.be/KDOOKWKM3wM

Life isn't Hollywood. People don't always tell you they are going to attack you and people don't die instantly after getting shot. It's always better to have more skills to give you an edge.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I think there are a lot of folks out there who operate on an odd level of ignorance, a little bubble they are comfortable in and with.
Physical violence is as foreign to them as walking on the surface of the moon. They can honestly look you in the eye and espouse nonviolence because they have never seen the results of some violence.

Those folks are operating in the very same world with some straight up, reptilian brain killers. Those guys with no remorse, dead eyes and a real lack of human feelings or control. If you can say "I could never kill." you've just not seen enough motivation to survive and encounter with one of these animals.

As I have aged, I have learned. As I have observed humanity or the lack thereof for going on six decades now, I'm not always impressed.

Great post, some Zen wisdom right here.





As far as being ready, willing, able to draw/shoot, been shot at twice. Some guys I was with just froze. When I was 12-14, my mother had a stalker. When he was kicking in the front door one night, my mom had a .38 and was shaking like a leaf in a storm. She turned to me and said, “You are going to have to do it.” I was 14. The scenario of what would happen if I didn’t made the decision easy. Something clicked inside of me and what I knew of right/wrong told me it was ok and the best course of action was to light guy up with a 20ga. at around 12ft. Father’s friends(ex-BTDT’s)had counseled us where to set up(fatal funnel) since the stalking had been ongoing for yrs. and had recently escalated.

The alternative was unacceptable and my religious beliefs and personal compass all told me it was perfectly acceptable to defend my family even to the point of taking another life. It wouldn’t have been murder, it would have been defense of life, preventing rape, torture, etc. In my belief system that is acceptable.

That.

That right there is Combat Mindset.

Some are born with it and others are born victims.

Bravo to you sir.

[26 Inf]

I can't tell you how many times I've pulled into a parking lot, only to back out immediately if there were a bunch of guys hanging around that looked a little "iffy." I can't tell you how many rest stops I've passed up on a road trip and peed at the side of the road instead because the rest stops just weren't very brightly lit or I couldn't see the driver of the "other" car there at 3 am. I can't tell you how many times I've parked in the emptiest, best-lit portion of the Wal-Mart parking lot because anyone approaching me would be seen from 50 yards away. I can't tell you how many times I went right back into a restaurant because the guy twenty paces behind me seemed to be "following" me.

I alluded to this in an earlier post: And before the incident, don't waste your time reading anything Grossman or anyone else wrote UNTIL you have read and digested 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin DeBecker.

Studying that book and reading and digesting this article that Tom Givens wrote a long time ago will get you on the way to developing a fine sense of situational awareness:

http://www.shielddefensetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/States-of-Awareness.pdf

In driving classes we introduce folks to the concept of 'commentary driving' which is in simplest terms talking to yourself about what you see in the driving environment. The idea being that your alertness is increased as you look for things to talk about. Of course we don't just tell them, 'look around and talk to yourself' we point out things they should be looking for and a suggested method of scanning, once you've done it for a while you are always doing it.

The process can easily be adapted to keeping you aware, anywhere.

[Doc Safari]

I alluded to this in an earlier post: And before the incident, don't waste your time reading anything Grossman or anyone else wrote UNTIL you have read and digested 'The Gift of Fear' by Gavin DeBecker.

Studying that book and reading and digesting this article that Tom Givens wrote a long time ago will get you on the way to developing a fine sense of situational awareness:

http://www.shielddefensetraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/States-of-Awareness.pdf

In driving classes we introduce folks to the concept of 'commentary driving' which is in simplest terms talking to yourself about what you see in the driving environment. The idea being that your alertness is increased as you look for things to talk about. Of course we don't just tell them, 'look around and talk to yourself' we point out things they should be looking for and a suggested method of scanning, once you've done it for a while you are always doing it.

The process can easily be adapted to keeping you aware, anywhere.

That's a little strange. I employ a technique where I zero in on an individual at a location and let my mind extrapolate what he's going to do next. For example, if the guy has his hands in his pockets, I watch the pockets and imagine him drawing a weapon. If it's a little old lady, I imagine her walking out in front of me without looking both ways. Same for a child. If it's a scraggly looking person, I imagine him asking for money and becoming belligerent when I refuse...

That kind of thing. Needless to say I drive to a lot of places and then don't stop. One night I literally passed up about three fast food joints on the way home because the crowd inside just "didn't look right", or I had a feeling I couldn't keep track of everybody. I tend to avoid "busy" places like the plague because you just can't keep track of everyone's hands.

[AKDoug]

So what do people who don't have time for basic hand to hand skills do? Just resort to being a victim? - I'm your opinion!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I barely have time to stay proficient at shooting. At least dry fire and non-firing manipulations can be practiced at home. Hand to hand requires a partner, which I don't have...and the nearest gym is 60 miles away.

[Arik]

I barely have time to stay proficient at shooting. At least dry fire and non-firing manipulations can be practiced at home. Hand to hand requires a partner, which I don't have...and the nearest gym is 60 miles away.

Literally in the same situation! I meant barely to get one two three classes a year in....but at least one. And I have a bunch of gyms in this area but my work schedule doesn't allow for it. And even on my day off I'm technically still working. It's at a point where I always have 2 cell phones with me in case I get called while away from a computer or out of the office. I even tried a personal trainer a few years ago. I'd miss some classes due to work and then I'd miss some more because I'd get a call while I'm in class.

And it's even less possible for my employees. They're home once every two weeks or so! When they get home I don't think karate practice is on their list of things to do.

It's nice to have a 9-5 five days a week but it's not always possible.

[SteyrAUG]

FINALLY on page eight someone talks about situational awareness. I was hoping someone would grab onto this right away.



On this subject, on this forum, we have enough trained people we could probably go 50 pages detailing every aspect in minute detail if we wanted to. And even if we are currently running it into the ground and seemingly stuck on very minor details of debate I bet if we were all in the same classroom there would be a 90% cohesive agreement on all of the major (important) aspects.

And we'd all probably learn one new thing that we hadn't fully appreciated or fully understood yet.

I used to run a class for martial arts instructors and it was largely the same thing. 25 guys trying to make sure everyone else is on the same page, emphasizing small things because everyone grasped the big things, and after a few moments of dissertation those that were questioning this or that finally understood (or at least accepted the validity) of the points being made.

[SteyrAUG]

We all know a perp can fatally wound us with a knife before we can draw and fire our concealed carry pistol.


And just to address this point, I can't count the number of times something felt "odd" in those dark parking lots or whatever and I discretely drew my weapon and palmed it against the back of my hip as if I was reaching for a wallet.

If you are wrong and nothing happens, it's easy to reholster.

Always skew everything in your control to your advantage from recognizing threats early, to location of possible conflict to early access of weapons.

Musashi wrote an entire book on swordsmanship that was completely about this subject and how to put as many variable in the "working for you" column vs the "working for your attacker." Nowhere in the book does he discuss how to hold or swing a sword.

[Doc Safari]

And just to address this point, I can't count the number of times something felt "odd" in those dark parking lots or whatever and I discretely drew my weapon and palmed it against the back of my hip as if I was reaching for a wallet.

If you are wrong and nothing happens, it's easy to reholster.

Always skew everything in your control to your advantage from recognizing threats early, to location of possible conflict to early access of weapons.

Musashi wrote an entire book on swordsmanship that was completely about this subject and how to put as many variable in the "working for you" column vs the "working for your attacker." Nowhere in the book does he discuss how to hold or swing a sword.

Similarly, Sun Tzu spends a LOT of time in "The Art of War" talking about preparations and winning without actually fighting.

[MountainRaven]

And just to address this point, I can't count the number of times something felt "odd" in those dark parking lots or whatever and I discretely drew my weapon and palmed it against the back of my hip as if I was reaching for a wallet.

If you are wrong and nothing happens, it's easy to reholster.

Always skew everything in your control to your advantage from recognizing threats early, to location of possible conflict to early access of weapons.

Musashi wrote an entire book on swordsmanship that was completely about this subject and how to put as many variable in the "working for you" column vs the "working for your attacker." Nowhere in the book does he discuss how to hold or swing a sword.

To me, and it's been a few years (over a decade, in fact), since I read Musashi, his book always read to me like a brochure on why you should go take one of his classes. Kind of like the old days of Magpul Dynamics DVDs and probably even earlier stuff: Yeah, there's some good information in there, but they also want you to see what's on the videos and to come to their classes.

[Honu]

https://youtu.be/KDOOKWKM3wM

hahahahah one of the better shows that has been out recently :)

[SteyrAUG]

To me, and it's been a few years (over a decade, in fact), since I read Musashi, his book always read to me like a brochure on why you should go take one of his classes. Kind of like the old days of Magpul Dynamics DVDs and probably even earlier stuff: Yeah, there's some good information in there, but they also want you to see what's on the videos and to come to their classes.

The funny thing is Musashi had very few students and wrote the book towards the end of his life.

The other funny thing is Japan's most famous swordsman, who fought 61 duels undefeated and died of natural causes had little or no formal training in the martial arts at all (he received some instruction as a child). He invented a new school of fencing that was virtually unrelated to anything that previously existed and he attributed most of his success to strategy rather than perfected technique. He simply understood the environment of armed conflict better than most other people.

[Ed L.]

I trained under a student of Danny Inosanto, the man featured in the video below.

My personal view is that you absolutely need some form of fighting technique before you should even think about carrying a weapon- any weapon.



Looking at the number of people who have successfully defended themselves with firearm who had no fighting technique training--including those who had no formal firearms training--I would disagree.

There are also lots of people who are old, weak, feeble, handicapped who are not going to be able to do any unarmed training, or the unarmed training that they are doing, or their execution of it would not be adequate. Do we deny these people the right to own the most effective weapon to defend themselves?

[RetroRevolver77]

Looking at the number of people who have successfully defended themselves with firearm who had no fighting technique training--including those who had no formal firearms training--I would disagree.

There are also lots of people who are old, weak, feeble, handicapped who are not going to be able to do any unarmed training, or the unarmed training that they are doing, or their execution of it would not be adequate. Do we deny these people the right to own the most effective weapon to defend themselves?


To re-iterate, I stated, "in my personal view"- meaning just my opinion. No, I would not deprive anyone of their second amendment rights. I am saying that the risk increases greatly if you can't even so much as deflect a direct line of attack before reaching your own firearm or are caught off guard before being able to present your weapon for firing. If you are able bodied, if you have a few hours a week available- then you really owe it to yourself to be involved in some form of fighting style. Counting on just a firearm may not always be enough. I've been in a few altercations that involved multiple assailants, on three of those occasions they were armed- so my view might different than someone who has never actually experienced a real fight for their life situation.