Is This Target Suitable for an AR 15?

[Dr. Bullseye]

This is a 10 inch, 3/8, AR500 Steel target. Is this thick enough for an AR 15?



https://gnarlygorilla.com/birchwood-casey-world-of-targets-ar500-10-single-hole-steel-gong-3-8-ar500-steel-target-matte-black/

[Stickman]

This is a 10 inch, 3/8, AR500 Steel target. Is this thick enough for an AR 15?



https://gnarlygorilla.com/birchwood-casey-world-of-targets-ar500-10-single-hole-steel-gong-3-8-ar500-steel-target-matte-black/

3/8 AR500 should be fine, especially if you don't shoot up super close and aren't shooting green tip or anything goofy.

Just remember, all steel is not the same, the way it is cut and hardened makes a big difference. Think of knives, they can have the same material and still be totally different.

Personally, I'm getting all my steel from www.shootsteel.com, but obviously there are other good places as well.

[Dr. Bullseye]

3/8 AR500 should be fine, especially if you don't shoot up super close and aren't shooting green tip or anything goofy.

Just remember, all steel is not the same, the way it is cut and hardened makes a big difference. Think of knives, they can have the same material and still be totally different.

Personally, I'm getting all my steel from www.shootsteel.com, but obviously there are other good places as well.

Thanks Stickman!

[RHINOWSO]

I prefer steel with two attachment points, as it will do more back and forth swinging and settle down faster after being hit - single point like that can take a bit longer to settle down for follow on shots.

Also make sure it swings - sounds stupid but even at 100 yards if you hard mount steel at a bad angle and bad things can happen.

[Pappabear]

Birchwood and Champion are not the best but will do. I agree with two attachment points, I have one that , one of the attachments is blown off, but I can still use it. So two points are better than one.

MGM, Big Dawg Steel are two places I have bought from. The base is also very important, so look into that. I have a 6 pack MGM rack that uses 2X4 and my slants use 2X4 as well. So when they get trashed, I just buy another 2X4. My big Dawg uses a 4X4. I was just talking too Mark today and saying how amazing it is that my rebar stands have not been cut down yet.

I checked the prices from Stickmans suggestion, that looks like a solid website. Lotta good steal out there, go buy a bunch and shoot a lot.

PB

[vandal5]

Thanks Stickman!
Hey Dr. Bullseye,

When I went to that link there was a pop up to join a mailing list to get 15% off your first purchase.

Just wanted to make sure you or anyone else saw that when going to the site.


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[gaijin]

We use 3/8” AR500 at 200 and out.
Velocity is the steel killer. Although 5.56 certainly won’t shoot through 3/8”, we’ve had it “pocked up” pretty good at 100.
While not a problem itself, we’ve gotten wicked ricochet with pistol ammo up close from the cratering.

[voiceofreason]

+1 NO GREEN TIP

I prefer never to shoot steel at under 200 with any rifle caliber. The steel just doesn't hold up to even bunnyfart FMJ without cratering. Regardless of brand. 5.56 and .223 is just very fast in terms of velocity.

[flenna]

I bought this set a year ago and have shot hundreds of rounds at them. Even shooting rifle rounds as close as 25 yards they are holding up well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AR500-Steel-Target-Gong-3pc-Set-6-8-and-8-x12-IDPA-Silhouette-USA-MADE-/272760773612?hash=item3f81cf1bec

[26 Inf]

I use these guys: https://www.ar500targetsolutions.com/product/ar500-12x20-x-38-silhouette-steel-target/ (notice target prices include shipping)

I needed to buy my own metal after I retired a couple years ago, they were on sale and checked all the boxes I needed checked. I ended up buying a total of 12 total torso plates, if you shoot AR at 100 yards they will dimple, so I use 6 for AR and 6 for pistol.

I am pretty religious about rotating impact faces and having an angled mount. At our academy, we started training on metal using Porta-Target and their stuff has lasted forever. I follow their safety protocols religiously (Savage bought Porta-Target from Paul Sloan about 8 years ago IIRC):

http://savagerangesystems.com/doc/guides/safety.pdf

I've bought some circle plates from various vendors elsewhere because I don't like ears on my plates, I use the angled mount. For my use I need portable stands. I use these hangers:

https://www.ar500targetsolutions.com/product/3-pack-ar500-target-stand-mount/

And these bases:

https://redstitchtargets.com/shop/2x4-target-base

If you are using 2x4 bases you are going to shred the 2x4, so I armor them with angle iron I buy at a scrap dealer in Wichita. Rifle rounds will go through, but you dont' have to deal with the toothpick splintering.

At the time these were, IMHO, the best deals going, not sure they are still.

If you get nothing else from this post - download or copy the Porta-Target/Savage metal target use instructions.

Hope this helps.

[Bill Murray]

I have recently started shooting AR15s at ShootSteel.com 3/8 inch AR500 targets. At 100 yards, I have seen minor cratering. 200 yards has not been as hard on the targets. My targets are mounted on 2x4s with the ShootSteel.com protector pieces (they work). My buddy and I have really enjoyed the change from paper to steel targets. Do it, you'll be glad you did.

[Failure2Stop]

+1 NO GREEN TIP

I prefer never to shoot steel at under 200 with any rifle caliber. The steel just doesn't hold up to even bunnyfart FMJ without cratering. Regardless of brand. 5.56 and .223 is just very fast in terms of velocity.

Green tip is actually less damaging than 55 gr FMJ.
The largest danger with green tip inside 100 meters is the "penetrator" bouncing and becoming a secondary projectile.

[markm]

Green tip is actually less damaging than 55 gr FMJ.
The largest danger with green tip inside 100 meters is the "penetrator" bouncing and becoming a secondary projectile.

This has been my experience too. XM193 inside of 100 yards it harsh on steel, and pocks the gong more than M855. 55 gr bullets dump velocity quickly and don't chew up steel as distance increases.

[Pappabear]

I have recently started shooting AR15s at ShootSteel.com 3/8 inch AR500 targets. At 100 yards, I have seen minor cratering. 200 yards has not been as hard on the targets. My targets are mounted on 2x4s with the ShootSteel.com protector pieces (they work). My buddy and I have really enjoyed the change from paper to steel targets. Do it, you'll be glad you did.

The fact of the matter is your steel is going to get eaten up sooner or later if you shoot it enough. But show reasonable judgement as discussed and it will last years and years. Thats what I like about the slants, they deflect the bullets down and can take more abuse IMHO.

PB

[RHINOWSO]

I ended up buying a total of 12 total torso plates, if you shoot AR at 100 yards they will dimple, so I use 6 for AR and 6 for pistol.

I agree completely. I bought 4 torsos for rifle use only and have only used 2 so far (with one primary, the other only a handful of times).

Local range only goes to 125yds - there are ones that go further out but that is my primary, easy access range so I shoot a lot of stuff at 100-125 yards.

I have hammered that piece with 5.56 ranging from various M193 and M855 loads, Wolf 55gr / 62gr loads, and 762x51-308s from 130gr SOST to 175gr BTHP loads.

It is dimpled and pockmarked from the hits, no doubt but it hangs from 2 chain on either a wood or rebar frame and the swinging allows it to deflect a portion of the energy off the metal.

No way I'd shoot it up close with a pistol, but it keeps chugging after at least 2K (?) rounds on it at 100yards - It could be much higher, that is a conservative estimate and family members have used it when I'm not around. I do file down the edges if it takes a hit there which leaves some metal hanging off, but it's very durable.

[Dr. Bullseye]

I can't always go out to 100 yards. What about using 1/2 inch AR500 targets, would they be better close up, say at 40-75 yards?

[26 Inf]

I can't always go out to 100 yards. What about using 1/2 inch AR500 targets, would they be better close up, say at 40-75 yards?

I don't think any manufacturer is going to tell you to shoot rifle plates within 100 yards.

I've shot angled plates between 40-60 yards - you get jacket shrapnel back at you. A good slice was all it took to convince me to not do that anymore and actually read the safety manual.

[Failure2Stop]

I can't always go out to 100 yards. What about using 1/2 inch AR500 targets, would they be better close up, say at 40-75 yards?

Get frangible ammo.
Thickness is not the relevant factor, the issue is spall causing injury, not worried about plate damage really.

[Adrenaline_6]

You could have got the same gong with 2 mounting points for dollars more.

https://shootingtargets7.com/steel-targets/gongs/10-ar500-gong.html

The bullseye versions aren't that much more and helps with accuracy.

https://shootingtargets7.com/steel-targets/bullseye-targets/bullseye-target-470.html

[markm]

I can't always go out to 100 yards. What about using 1/2 inch AR500 targets, would they be better close up, say at 40-75 yards?

3/8" with the slant gives you about the same durability as 1/2" armor due to the impact angle. Frangible is best, but good frangible is expensive. I typically will hand load a hundred round box of thin jacket/varmint bullets and shoot them with eye pro in place for sure.

[Pappabear]

Inside 100, slants shine. If you cant have slants running chains or firehose so the target can absorb / deflect the energy is great.

[RobertTheTexan]

I use 1/2” x2” carriage bolts through the holes in my AR500 plates. 1/2” by 10”, 8”, 6”, and a 4x2 spinner) I use a series of fender washers, hex nuts and finally a lock nut. Then it doesn’t matter what I hang my plates with - chains, 550 cord, bungee cords, it doesn’t matter, the plates angle down so the bottom is behind the top. I haven’t use frangible just 55gr 62gr 5.56 ball. The plate is at such an angle the spall digs a nice trench under the plates. When I’m running lateral drills and shoot at off angle, I get spalling on my targets to the left and right if my plates. I mix silhouette targets with my plates and for a lot of drills I’m may start at 100m, then run to 50, and then to approx 25m. I’m not suggesting this, but saying what I do. I haven’t observed visually or aurally any spall whizzing past me, so I continue on. I’ve also trained with my pistol at about 10-15m, again no issues. I’m not mag dumping, but my mag loads range from 1-7 rounds, and usually run through 2-7 mag changes per drill, so I’d think I would have seen an issue. TGIH though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CLee0509]

I think you'll be ok, I had some ar500 before and the only warning was shooting it with anything over 3000fps and so many ft.lbs of energy (IIRC it was 1500). So even with M193 at 100 yards you'd be well under those numbers.

[trackmagic]

SBRs are good for shooting steel close. My 10.5" is pretty gentle on my steel up close. I angle my targets down pretty aggressively and have not had issues with spalling.

[everready73]

If you check out shoot steel as Stick recommend they offer some ar550 steel and set ups for close range with rifles. They also have ar500 3/4 thick they claim it's good up to 50 BMG. Have not tried anything like that personally, just the standard ar500 3/8 which is holding up well to rifle 100+. I have done ar400 I got from a local steel and welding shop that had lasted a few years without a crater shooting up to 357 mag with handguns at 10 yards plus if you wanted something a little cheaper for handgun calibers it holds up well

[26 Inf]

If you check out shoot steel as Stick recommend they offer some ar550 steel and set ups for close range with rifles. They also have ar500 3/4 thick they claim it's good up to 50 BMG. Have not tried anything like that personally, just the standard ar500 3/8 which is holding up well to rifle 100+. I have done ar400 I got from a local steel and welding shop that had lasted a few years without a crater shooting up to 357 mag with handguns at 10 yards plus if you wanted something a little cheaper for handgun calibers it holds up well

From what I've learned, pistol plates are good up to 1500fps and rifle plates are good up to 3000fps.

The AR stands for abrasion resistant. Uses for AR steel are in snow plow blades, material handling equipment, and in tillage implements. Generally, 'pistol' plates are AR400 and 'rifle' plates are AR500.

Other than penetration, the damage to a metal target can be classified as either pitting or denting. Neither is desirable as a smooth target face will deflect fragments in a reliably predictable pattern, and a dented or pitted plate will be unpredictable. Obviously the further you get from the target the less concern you will have with this.

Pitting is material removal from the strike face, caused by super-heating the strike face. Pitting is largely a product of velocity and the projectile's impact surface size. If your targets are pitting, get harder targets, or shoot from further away.

Denting or deformation is caused by exceeding the strength (not hardness) of the material.....Heavy projectiles tend to dent targets, as opposed to pitting them. They tend to be slower than their light projectile cousins, the 168 grain .308 (2700 fps) as opposed to the 55 grain .223 (3200 fps).

If your targets are denting you need to either move them further away, or get thicker targets.

If you are pitting your targets, thicker targets won't help. unless, of course, they are a harder material, you need to move further away.

Angling the targets can reduce the energy transfer in the face of the target, and therefore reduce/eliminate both pitting and denting.

This is a good explanation, and where I got the italicized text from: https://moatargets.com/blog/pitting-vs-denting-how-projectiles-affect-steel-targets/

This from from the Porta-Target/Savage Manual:

Frangible Ammunition
The increasing demand for environmentally cleaner, and lead free ammunition set in motion the development of frangible ammunition during the early 1990’s. Frangible projectiles are usually made of tungsten and copper powder in a nylon polymer matrix. These composite metal and nylon bullets are designed to shatter into tiny fragments upon impact with hard surfaces, thus reducing back splatter.

However, not all frangible ammunition is alike, and all types do not work well on steel targets. Certain frangible projectiles will damage steel targets, including ours, and can create a risk of serious injury to the shooter and others.

Some frangible projectiles become extremely hard during the manufacturing process and act almost like an armor piercing round, damaging our hardened steel targets at only 2,600 f.p.s. And because of the light weight of frangible rifle projectiles, they often exceed our 3,000 f.p.s. maximum for use on our rifle grade targets with conventional (non-frangible) ammunition.

Rifled Shotgun Slugs
Conventional Foster-type (hollow-base) lead rifled slugs should not be used on any upright (not angled) steel target, such as our Pepper Poppers, Colt Speed Targets, or Bianchi Plate Racks. Rifled slugs should be used only on our angled Hi-Power Silhouettes, Non-Reactive Plate Targets or Gong Stands.

Use of hollow-based rifled slugs on an upright (not angled) steel plate can cause the hollow base of the slug to invert on impact, sending a large, teardrop-shaped piece of
lead bouncing straight back toward the shooter to a distance of 50 yards or more from the plate.

Again, do not fire rifled slugs at any upright (not angled) steel plate.

[Dr. Bullseye]

These responses are excellent and I have learned a ton from them, thanks guys.

[26 Inf]

A lot of the rules/precautions most of us wouldn't normally think of - it would be a shame if someone, thinking they were doind something in a safe manner, injured themselves.

[Jonnyt16]

Lots of good info and recommendations here.

I will say the best stands I have found for my steel targets are from CTS... https://ctstargets.com/collections/stands-hangers/products/2x4-x-ground-base

[Kansaswoodguy]

https://hangfasttargets.com/products/standard-hanger-raw-uncoated

These are the best target hanging system I've ever used. I don't use there targets however I like 2/3 IDPA targets with a single hanging point like these.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AR500-Steel-Gong-12-x-20-x-3-8-IPDA-IPSC-Shooting-Target-Rifle-Target/181753908927?hash=item2a51608ebf:g:WlMAAOSwY~laD081

[Kansaswoodguy]

I use almost all 3/8" AR500 targets never any closer than 100yds with .233/5.56 green tips will ruin a target as will shooting closer than 100yds. At 400yds and farther with .223/5.56 one could get away with AR400 steel if however you are going to be using other calibers on the targets I'd push the distance to 600-700yds before dropping to AR400. I have two 4'x4' 3/8" AR400 targets at 1000yds that show zero damage even with 338's solid copper bullets pounding on them. At 600yds 1/4" mild steel will work for 223/5.56 but other calibers will tear it up. I can ruin 1/4" mild steel at 900yds with a 6.5 creedmore my buddy shoots right thru it at that range with his 300 mag.

[Failure2Stop]

I haven't used every target, base, or hanger, but I can say that the MGM rifle target stand puts the steel at a healthy angle, allowing pretty close shooting as long as you sandbag the base.
Details on their page:
https://mgmtargets.com/tactical-targets/tac-bccz-with-armor-plate-post-and-tube-base

I own two of these, and they have lasted since 2011, though I haven't used them heavily since 2014 or so, having shifted gears more toward long-range stuff that permits much lower durability targets.

[Pappabear]

I haven't used every target, base, or hanger, but I can say that the MGM rifle target stand puts the steel at a healthy angle, allowing pretty close shooting as long as you sandbag the base.
Details on their page:
https://mgmtargets.com/tactical-targets/tac-bccz-with-armor-plate-post-and-tube-base

I own two of these, and they have lasted since 2011, though I haven't used them heavily since 2014 or so, having shifted gears more toward long-range stuff that permits much lower durability targets.

I have two of these as well except my stand is different, mine uses their 2X4 approach. Just awesome targets. We have beat mine to death and great for close shooting as you said. We have beat mine so hard its bowed down at the bottom , which is fine too. The more it throws the lead to the ground the better.

[markm]

green tips will ruin a target

Have you seen this? I read it all the time, but my actual experience is the opposite.

[Kansaswoodguy]

Have you seen this? I read it all the time, but my actual experience is the opposite.

Yes a buddy from work wanted to shoot his new AR build some a couple years back and showed up with green tip surplus ammo from someplace. I didn't notice what ammo he was using until we walked down to the 100yd target after a magazine full had already been shot. There was lite pitting on a 6"X 3/8" AR500 target, pits where maybe 1/4" diameter no deaper than a business cards thickness, nothing completely horrible but with time it would ruin a good target. I was a little put out but it was only a 6" target nothing of terribly much value had it been one of my full size IDPA targets I'd of been genuinely annoyed. I normally run 75-77 grain match bullets and leave no damage even at that range unless I catch a corner of the plate then there maybe some pitting. I do check peoples ammo now when I invite them over to my range I'm not a wealthy man and have a bit of money tied up in steal targets I don't like them torn up. I purchased a small3/8"x 6"x6" AR400 target just to test rounds on when we where contemplating buying a full 4'x8' sheet of the stuff for the 1000yd target for the big range even a 338 lapua will not hurt it at that range never tried 50bmg even at 1000yds that thing is just abusive to anything in its way. I've also seen a 50bmg turn a 3/8x 12" gong at 400yds into what could best be described as a dinner plate there must of been 1 1/2" of cup to it after one shot.

[Failure2Stop]

Yes a buddy from work wanted to shoot his new AR build some a couple years back and showed up with green tip surplus ammo from someplace. I didn't notice what ammo he was using until we walked down to the 100yd target after a magazine full had already been shot. There was lite pitting on a 6"X 3/8" AR500 target, pits where maybe 1/4" diameter no deaper than a business cards thickness, nothing completely horrible but with time it would ruin a good target. I was a little put out but it was only a 6" target nothing of terribly much value had it been one of my full size IDPA targets I'd of been genuinely annoyed. I normally run 75-77 grain match bullets and leave no damage even at that range unless I catch a corner of the plate then there maybe some pitting. I do check peoples ammo now when I invite them over to my range I'm not a wealthy man and have a bit of money tied up in steal targets I don't like them torn up. I purchased a small3/8"x 6"x6" AR400 target just to test rounds on when we where contemplating buying a full 4'x8' sheet of the stuff for the 1000yd target for the big range even a 338 lapua will not hurt it at that range never tried 50bmg even at 1000yds that thing is just abusive to anything in its way. I've also seen a 50bmg turn a 3/8x 12" gong at 400yds into what could best be described as a dinner plate there must of been 1 1/2" of cup to it after one shot.

Run M855 and any fast 55gr FMJ (such as M193) side by side on a target at 100 yards, and you'll see more pitting from the 55gr FMJ.
From a 16" barrel, most M855 is going to be moving at around 2900-3000 fps, and most M193 types will be at 3000-3100 fps.
The "penetrator" in M855 is not very good at what it does, as opposed to M855A1 or M995, which have actual hardened penetrators.
Absent a penetrator, speed is the king when it comes to breaking armor steel.

[Adrenaline_6]

Here is a good explanation from the guy I get my targets from. It also shows how his carriage bolts on his targets are setup so you get the desired angle. My targets came with the required carriage bolts attached.

I just bought a cheap folding saw horse kit from Lowes like this: https://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-2-sawhorse-brackets-67163.html that uses (4) 2x4's that I cut to the desired hang height and bought an 8' 2x6 for the cross piece. I then drilled holes in the 2x6 and attached (8) eyebolts across the top to hang my 4 steel target from and voila, I got a nice steel shooting platform that I can easily pack, move, and reassemble. I don't have a permanent place to put it so this setup helps with that.

F2S is correct (of course!) Speed is the determining factor which is transferred as heat energy which causes the steel deformation and pitting.

https://youtu.be/e_xglwjZXO4


Picture of my simple setup:

https://i.imgur.com/Gldg514.jpg

[markm]

Run M855 and any fast 55gr FMJ (such as M193) side by side on a target at 100 yards, and you'll see more pitting from the 55gr FMJ.
From a 16" barrel, most M855 is going to be moving at around 2900-3000 fps, and most M193 types will be at 3000-3100 fps.
The "penetrator" in M855 is not very good at what it does

This is exactly what I've observed. M193, 100 or closer, is brutal on targets. Pocks and perforations on plates, etc.

[jsbhike]

Go one even better, shoot sub 55gr hollow points at steel and check out the damage those do.
I would be interested in seeing what something in .22-250/.220 Swift velocity levels would do.

Inrange has a video on why they prefer people show up to their matches shooting bimetal .223 loads instead of M193 equivalent due to M193 target damage.