5.56: Fragmentation or Expansion?

[BallisticHarmony]

My question is which wounding mechanism is more effective if you remove The Hague Convention from the equation? Fragmenting bullets have a more restrictive velocity requirement in which they are effective, but from what I understand they are more lethal than expanding bullets in most situations. Which one is optimal? Is the best solution one that combines both mechanisms, such as the 77 TMK?

Which round has the lowest fragmention threshold?

Which round has the lowest expansion threshold?

Which of the above rounds is more lethal?

Would the M855A1 with a tungsten core (ADVAP) just be the best of all worlds?

[Clint]

Monolithic and bonded expanding styles offer the most consistent terminal performance over the widest range of impact velocities.

[BallisticHarmony]

Monolithic and bonded expanding styles offer the most consistent terminal performance over the widest range of impact velocities.

Would you mind listing a few that you would recommend?

[Defaultmp3]

Would you mind listing a few that you would recommend?There used to be list on this site...


For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration using 1/9 and faster twist barrels are the 5.56 mm Federal 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3) and 5.56 mm Winchester 64 gr solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B) developed for the FBI, along with the outstanding new Black Hills 5.56 mm 50 gr TSX loading. The Hornady 5.56 mm 55 gr GMX is another acceptable option. Note that these are all true 5.56 mm loads that require a real milspec 5.56 mm chamber, not a SAAMI .223 chamber--be sure to check with an appropriate gauge or reamer. Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Horn 55 gr GMX, and the .223 Speer 62/64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). The Speer 75 gr Gold Dot JSP and Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT are also good choices, but usually require a 1/7 twist. Note that the Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, most TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than bonded JSP’s, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. If running 1/12 twist barrels, stick with the BH 50 gr TSX, Fed 55 gr TBBC, Fed 55 gr TSX, Horn 55 gr GMX, or Speer 55 gr Gold Dot. NONE of the fragmenting 5.56 mm OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. Contrary to what many believe, M193 & M855 FMJ are not very good against glass; the best military 5.56 mm load against glass is 52 gr M995 AP, followed by the 62 gr Mk318 Mod0 OTM and 70 gr Optimal "brown tip" OTM.

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.

For longer range engagements using precision weapons like the Mk12 SPR or DMR rifles with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels, one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy OTM loadings are a good choice: the Barnes 70 gr TSX (Optimized "browntip"), Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N), Nosler 77 gr, or the Sierra 77 gr Match King (Mk262 Mod1) and 77 gr Tipped Match King.

Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK53, HK G36C, etc… offer advantages in confined spaces. With SBR’s it is best to stick with the barrier blind loads recommended above, although the heavy OTM's suggested for long distance shooting will also work. SBR's can run into rotational velocity issues with some loads, so it is generally best to select faster 1/7 twist barrels whenever possible. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on some JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

[BallisticHarmony]

That was an interesting read. I’m still confused as to which option is better if barrier penetration isn’t a factor. Are heavier OTM designs more lethal by default than smaller bonded bullets?

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Lay off the soy. If intermediate barrier penetration isn’t an option then putting the bullet where it goes is the best option. I got some truly shocking news.... if you blow someone’s Aorta out it’s not going to matter if you do it with 62gr Fusion or 75gr TAP. On the flip side if you shoot them in the dick it’s not going to make a difference either.


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[BallisticHarmony]

Lay off the soy. If intermediate barrier penetration isn’t an option then putting the bullet where it goes is the best option. I got some truly shocking news.... if you blow someone’s Aorta out it’s not going to matter if you do it with 62gr Fusion or 75gr TAP. On the flip side if you shoot them in the dick it’s not going to make a difference either.


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I think what I’m asking is pretty straightforward... is fragmentation or expansion a better wounding mechanism, and which one has a lower velocity threshold? I get that a bullet square in the chest pretty much means you’re done regardless, but I think it’s important to discuss the pros and cons of two very different ballistic approaches.

[grizzman]

Fragmenting bullets are more lethal? That's news to me.

When a bullet manufacturer designs a bullet that fragments in a completely predictable manner with both a large temporary wound channel and deep penetration, I'll consider it as a viable self defense option.

[BallisticHarmony]

Fragmenting bullets are more lethal? That's news to me.

When a bullet manufacturer designs a bullet that fragments in a completely predictable manner with both a large temporary wound channel and deep penetration, I'll consider it as a viable self defense option.

Sounds a lot like M855A1

[MegademiC]

Monolithic and bonded expanding styles offer the most consistent terminal performance over the widest range of impact velocities.

...and through the widest variety of barriers.

Edit: fragmenting rounds are slightly more “effective”, but good softpoints are more reliable. You never know when you have a barrier and the gain with soft points is well worth the tradeoff of fragmenting, unless you need the accuracy of OTMs.

Based on my research (DocGKR) and experience (non-combat) id take fusion or similar.
There are Combat SMEs here with experience OCONUS who prefer mk262.

Pick one stock up and train.

[Todd.K]

The FBI is under no bullet design restrictions, and chose a barrier blind expanding load.

Barrier blind gives you more than the haters care to admit. For example, bullets that do well vs the windshield test do well going through bone. Intermediate barriers could end up being the arm of your attacker.

Expanding bullets are more consistent in performance. Fragmenting designs can sometimes fail to fragment, or fragment too much without enough penetration. I'm more open to fragmenting designs in a larger caliber, the 5.56 just starts without much room to loose any bullet weight and go deep enough.

[Doc Safari]

I realize there are probably other threads on this, but since brand names have been mentioned, I'd like to know where Federal Fusion fits in the food chain. (Like my alliteration?) :jester:

[kaltesherz]

Sounds a lot like M855A1

THIS^^^^^

M855A1 is pretty much the magic bullet- fragments violently at even fairly low velocities with no neck yet penetrates barriers handily.

[grizzman]

When discussing fragmenting bullets, by default I consider them to be SMK and other open tip match bullets, lightly constructed varmint bullets, and M855. The M855A1 seems like an entirely different animal, and not exactly readily available.

[TexasAggie2005]

I realize there are probably other threads on this, but since brand names have been mentioned, I'd like to know where Federal Fusion fits in the food chain. (Like my alliteration?) :jester:

I have had good luck with them hunting white tail and hogs. From DocGKR's post as DefaultMP3 quoted;


...Most other acceptable LE barrier blind loadings are at .223 pressures, including the .223 55 & 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical loads (LE223T1 & LE223T3), along with loads using Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded JSP (PRC223R4), .223 Federal 55 gr TSX (T223S), .223 Horn 55 gr GMX, and the .223 Speer 62/64 gr Gold Dot JSP's (and identically constructed Federal 62 gr Fusion JSP and Federal XM223SP1 62gr Bonded JSP). ...

[kaltesherz]

When discussing fragmenting bullets, by default I consider them to be SMK and other open tip match bullets, lightly constructed varmint bullets, and M855. The M855A1 seems like an entirely different animal, and not exactly readily available.

The OP didn't specify readily available, and M855A1 was designed to fragment much better and at much lower velocities than M855. M855 had a much longer neck and wouldn't frag past 80-120m out of an 14.5 barrel, from what I can tell M855A1 frags with no neck at least to 300m, probably further. And it punches through barriers better than 7.62x51. You're right about SMK's being the previous leaders in fragmenting designs, but M855A1 and M80A1 have shown you can have the best of both worlds now.

[BallisticHarmony]

This is fascinating. Does anyone know which barrier blind expanding round requires the least amount of velocity to perform properly? I assume heavier rounds would do better at longer ranges since they lose velocity more slowly?

[1168]

This is fascinating. Does anyone know which barrier blind expanding round requires the least amount of velocity to perform properly? I assume heavier rounds would do better at longer ranges since they lose velocity more slowly?

Not necessarly so. The heavy bonded bullets have varying BC’s among specific offerings, meaning some of the 62gr offerings may be better at extended ranges than some of the 75’s. Hornady TAP 5.56 SBR 75, for example has no boattail and a wide tip, leaving lots of BC on the table. It also has a relatively low muzzle velocity (like .223). I’m sure it wrecks shop at close range.

There are probably 75gr bonded rounds that are better at long range than their 62gr counterparts, but they elude me so far, personally.

[BallisticHarmony]

Not necessarly so. The heavy bonded bullets have varying BC’s among specific offerings, meaning some of the 62gr offerings may be better at extended ranges than some of the 75’s. Hornady TAP 5.56 SBR 75, for example has no boattail and a wide tip, leaving lots of BC on the table. It also has a relatively low muzzle velocity (like .223). I’m sure it wrecks shop at close range.

There are probably 75gr bonded rounds that are better at long range than their 62gr counterparts, but they elude me so far, personally.

Well then it could be argued that until there is more empirical data on the effective expanding ranges of various bonded rounds, SMKs or TMKs (or GMKs?) are a safer wounding choice for engagements where range is variable.

[1168]

Well then it could be argued that until there is more empirical data on the effective expanding ranges of various bonded rounds, SMKs or TMKs (or GMKs?) are a safer wounding choice for engagements where range is variable.

That’s not quite what I meant, sorry for the confusion. There is some info about expansion threshold with the bonded bullets, you just have to dig. Bonded bullets appear to be the best *available* choice for general use when you may have to engage targets at unknown distances and cannot predict your target’s use and availability of cover. Edit: concealment/barricades

Andrew at the Chopping Block youtube channel got good gel results out of the Fusion projectile handloaded at 1700fps, which I think is the low threshold for TMK. So even at the low end, bonded bullets work, and still have the barrier advantages.

[grizzman]

I don't plan to engage 2 legged critters at ranges in excess of 200 yards, so minimum velocity for expansion isn't something that concerns me personally. I'd rather be confident that the bullet will stay together at close range and through thin barriers, than that it'll expand in a situation that will likely never occur. I've got better performing rifles than the 5.56 AR for instances where long range defense may be required....time to go fondle a 19.25" M21DMR.

I load 62 grain Barnes TAC-Xs that have in excess of 2200 fps at 200 yards. My research indicates that these bullets need 1900 fps to expand.

[MegademiC]

62 gr fusion - 1350
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?65698-Federal-Fusion-223-Expansion-threshold

[khc3]

THIS^^^^^

M855A1 is pretty much the magic bullet- fragments violently at even fairly low velocities with no neck yet penetrates barriers handily.

I’m definitely behind the curve, but I think I read that M855A1 is quite a bit higher in pressure than other 5.56 rounds. Is that correct? And is it only available to the military?

[Clint]

Our sources indicate the pressure has been reduced to normal 5.56 levels.


I’m definitely behind the curve, but I think I read that M855A1 is quite a bit higher in pressure than other 5.56 rounds. Is that correct? And is it only available to the military?

[kaltesherz]

I’m definitely behind the curve, but I think I read that M855A1 is quite a bit higher in pressure than other 5.56 rounds. Is that correct? And is it only available to the military?

It's not available to civilians, it's replaced M855 in the Army and more recently Marines. It is slightly higher pressure, but the fears of causing extreme excess wear seem to be overblown and I can't tell any difference recoil wise. Here's some videos on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IvDPuVuho&t=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeNR4YDbwR0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItA83cPpS4

[khc3]

Thanks for the info.

So I’m guessing the projectile does not have a commercial equivalent? Who makes it?

*I will check out the videos, thanks!

[kaltesherz]

Thanks for the info.

So I’m guessing the projectile does not have a commercial equivalent? Who makes it?

*I will check out the videos, thanks!

Apparently you can buy the projectile and handload rounds. The majority of youtube vids on it are handloaded and not actual mil factory loads.

[kaltesherz]

OT, but here's the M80A1 round (7.62) we use in our M240L's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PmUikWEGgw

[vicious_cb]

Theoretically fragmentation has the potential to cause more damage since you are increasing the chances of puncturing something important off the main wound track. You generally see larger permanent wound cavities in gel as well with fragmenting rounds.

But realistically either type of round seems to drop dudes equally well. Bonded soft points are generally more consistent, followed by copper solids then OTM and FMJ.

The exception is M855A1 which you can't easily get and 77gr TMK which is a non yaw dependent OTM. Probably the 2 best choices for fragmenting rounds.

[BallisticHarmony]

Theoretically fragmentation has the potential to cause more damage since you are increasing the chances of puncturing something important off the main wound track. You generally see larger permanent wound cavities in gel as well with fragmenting rounds.

But realistically either type of round seems to drop dudes equally well. Bonded soft points are generally more consistent, followed by copper solids then OTM and FMJ.

The exception is M855A1 which you can't easily get and 77gr TMK which is a non yaw dependent OTM. Probably the 2 best choices for fragmenting rounds.

Why do you say that bonded soft points are better than copper solids? I’ve only heard good things about the TSX

[1168]

Why do you say that bonded soft points are better than copper solids? I’ve only heard good things about the TSX

Low expansion threshold, inexpensive, good BC, good starting velocity with equivalent pressures. Gives up nothing on barriers, maybe better.

TSX’s are no slouch, by any means.

[vicious_cb]

Why do you say that bonded soft points are better than copper solids? I’ve only heard good things about the TSX

Copper solids are very good, they just don't do as well through tough barriers, anything that will damage, plug or collapse the tip will cause it to not expand so they aren't as consistent through barriers like SPs.

[BallisticHarmony]

Copper solids are very good, they just don't do as well through tough barriers, anything that will damage, plug or collapse the tip will cause it to not expand so they aren't as consistent through barriers like SPs.

Do they have any benefits over SPs?

[ABNAK]

Do they have any benefits over SPs?

More than likely have a better ballistic coefficient.

[C-grunt]

Really, just pick a round you like and stick with it. I do believe the bonded soft points are better because of the more consistent performance through barriers. That being said, fragmenting rounds can still be very effective through barriers. We use Federal TRU 223E which is a 55 grain hollowpoint. I've got several buddies at work who have shot successfully through windshields, car doors, and windows. I've personally seen it go through a forearm and still be effective.

Like I said, I do believe the bonded soft points are better. However I'm not worried about my duty ammo be ineffective.

[WS6]

Do they have any benefits over SPs?

Better BC, deeper penetration, no meat contamination for those who hunt.

[Glock9mm1990]

I think people really overthink the 5.56 round when it cones to personal defense. Just pick a round, and place those rounds where they need to go when/if the need arises. It is a rifle round after all.

[BallisticHarmony]

I think people really overthink the 5.56 round when it cones to personal defense. Just pick a round, and place those rounds where they need to go when/if the need arises. It is a rifle round after all.

DocGKR would tend to disagree with you, I’d assume.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I think what I’m asking is pretty straightforward... is fragmentation or expansion a better wounding mechanism, and which one has a lower velocity threshold? I get that a bullet square in the chest pretty much means you’re done regardless, but I think it’s important to discuss the pros and cons of two very different ballistic approaches.

Neither is going to make a dramatic difference when placed where they belong, neither is going to make a dramatic difference when their not. Intermediate barriers aside, it’s really splitting hairs. However, since we live in an imperfect world and intermediate barriers are a thing, I think now that we have an abundance of quality SP and solid expanding ammunition, that is the best overall option.

Fragmenting ammunition may cause more tissue damage, but that’s not going to have any marked difference in the immediate outcome than a JSP or other similar round.


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[Glock9mm1990]

DocGKR would tend to disagree with you, I’d assume.

How so? Are you saying shot placement isn’t important? Because that’s what I was getting at. I do think people nick pick over shit when just about any 5.56 round will f**k someone up far more then any handgun round.

[BallisticHarmony]

How so? Are you saying shot placement isn’t important? Because that’s what I was getting at. I do think people nick pick over shit when just about any 5.56 round will f**k someone up far more then any handgun round.

Of course shot placement is important. The point I was making is that extensive testing has shown that different 5.56 rounds are far from similar and a 55 FMJ is simply nowhere as useful as a modern bonded or expanding bullet.

[Glock9mm1990]

55gr M193 FMJ is still as effective at killing things as it has always been. Is it as good as modern loads? No, but then I never said that. But us it useless? No that’s is just ridiculous, and people who would say that don’t understand the ballistics of the round.

https://youtu.be/mOJdv38Fypg

https://youtu.be/pzicw0Q8HRg

https://youtu.be/2lkI36eUoy4

We are not dealing with pistol rounds here people but rifle rounds. So yes people overthink 5.56.

[Wake27]

55gr M193 FMJ is still as effective at killing things as it has always been. Is it as good as modern loads? No, but then I never said that. But us it useless? No that’s is just ridiculous, and people who would say that don’t understand the ballistics of the round.

https://youtu.be/mOJdv38Fypg

https://youtu.be/pzicw0Q8HRg

https://youtu.be/2lkI36eUoy4

We are not dealing with pistol rounds here people but rifle rounds. So yes people overthink 5.56.

M193 is garbage. Sure it can kill people with proper shot placement but so can .22.


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[Glock9mm1990]

M193 is garbage. Sure it can kill people with proper shot placement but so can .22.


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M193 is garbage? Whatever dude. Many people who actually know what the hell they are talking about will disagree with that idiotic statement. You seem to be in a minority, an extream minority at that regardling M193. Dumbest shit I read all day.

[MegademiC]

M193 is garbage? Whatever dude. Many people who actually know what the hell they are talking about will disagree with that idiotic statement. You seem to be in a minority, an extream minority at that regardling M193. Dumbest shit I read all day.

M193 is garbage. Will it work? Yes. Are there much better options for minimal cost? Yes. Can it matter? Experts (fbi, mil, DocGKR) say yes.
193 is inaccurate, offers poor barrier performance and inconsistent terminal ballistics, although I believe m855 is even worse. Its reliable, which is the best it has going for it.

[_Stormin_]

M193 is garbage? Whatever dude. Many people who actually know what the hell they are talking about will disagree with that idiotic statement. You seem to be in a minority, an extream minority at that regardling M193. Dumbest shit I read all day.
You need to do more reading then... Wake knows his business. You clearly don't.

When given the choice of the multitude of 5.56 rounds available to the general public (let alone the military) M193 should almost be anyone's LAST choice in American made ammo. Sierra's Match King 77 gr BPBT (MK262 from Black Hills, "Razor Core" from IMI, and available in a few other loadings on the shelf) is more accurate by an order of magnitude. Regular M855 displays better penetration for the most common "military ammo" available to the general public and the cost difference is negligible unless you're buying a huge volume of ammo. If you're looking for home defense ammo I'm a big fan of Speers 64gr Gold Dot soft point, which is massively better in all ways than M193, though not the market leader against auto glass...

Just where does M193 excel other than being cheap to buy and readily available?

[hotrodder636]

I haven’t seen it mentioned yet but where does MK318 fall in this discussion.

Agree with those before who say M193 is junk. For me it is relegated to shooting on my buddies farm.

[Glock9mm1990]

You need to do more reading then... Wake knows his business. You clearly don't.

When given the choice of the multitude of 5.56 rounds available to the general public (let alone the military) M193 should almost be anyone's LAST choice in American made ammo. Sierra's Match King 77 gr BPBT (MK262 from Black Hills, "Razor Core" from IMI, and available in a few other loadings on the shelf) is more accurate by an order of magnitude. Regular M855 displays better penetration for the most common "military ammo" available to the general public and the cost difference is negligible unless you're buying a huge volume of ammo. If you're looking for home defense ammo I'm a big fan of Speers 64gr Gold Dot soft point, which is massively better in all ways than M193, though not the market leader against auto glass...

Just where does M193 excel other than being cheap to buy and readily available?

M193 has more reliable fragmentation against soft targets then M855 that is known to ice pick. M855 is still better against barriers for sure.

[_Stormin_]

If I am concerned with engaging soft targets within 100 yards, I have the 64gr Speers in my magazines. Beyond that, I am probably going to have MK262 clones.

(And yes, I try to stock quite a variety of ammo in my collection. Don't get me wrong, I have some M193 for plinking at the range too. I don't hate cheap and readily available.)

[kaltesherz]

M193 has more reliable fragmentation against soft targets then M855 that is known to ice pick. M855 is still better against barriers for sure.

Saying M193 is better than M855 at fragmenting isn't saying a whole lot since Green Tip was well known to have craptastic terminal ballistics- hence why M855A1 is such a big deal.

[MegademiC]

I haven’t seen it mentioned yet but where does MK318 fall in this discussion.

Agree with those before who say M193 is junk. For me it is relegated to shooting on my buddies farm.

Mk318 is probably the best military barrier blind ammo but still not as good as bonded sp iirc.

Fwiw, m855 is terrible against barriers as well. It will punch holes through cinder blocks, but terminal performance through autoglass and sheet metal does not compare to bonded softpoints.

[hotrodder636]

I saw it somewhere before but cannot recall where nor find it but it was a thread that compared the MK318 to it’s civilian counterpart. There is a federal bullet that has the same or similar performance...it might be the Fusion.


Mk318 is probably the best military barrier blind ammo but still not as good as bonded sp iirc.

Fwiw, m855 is terrible against barriers as well. It will punch holes through cinder blocks, but terminal performance through autoglass and sheet metal does not compare to bonded softpoints.

[Wake27]

I saw it somewhere before but cannot recall where nor find it but it was a thread that compared the MK318 to it’s civilian counterpart. There is a federal bullet that has the same or similar performance...it might be the Fusion.

Fusion is typically compared to Gold Dot, not sure if 318 is as well or not. While there’s a lot of good stuff out there, I used to stick to Fusion because it was easy to find. I think in the future I’ll have one mag of Fusion as the primary load and then a ton of 262 on hand. There are several manufacturers making that load in bulk and while it’s not the best for barriers it does really well at everything else. I figured enough rounds into the barrier will create a hole for others to go through if it really comes to that.


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[MegademiC]

I saw it somewhere before but cannot recall where nor find it but it was a thread that compared the MK318 to it’s civilian counterpart. There is a federal bullet that has the same or similar performance...it might be the Fusion.

Doc made a comment about if he was in military, hed want 318(this was pre-855a1, or during the high-pressure phase).
For Conus use he said he would choose a bonded soft point.

I stock fusion, its cheap, its accurate, it performs well theough barriers, its consistent, and its a good hunting round. Its not the “best” but its performance is close and is readily available.

[1168]

I saw it somewhere before but cannot recall where nor find it but it was a thread that compared the MK318 to it’s civilian counterpart. There is a federal bullet that has the same or similar performance...it might be the Fusion.
I think you are talking about Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Although I don’t think 318 is bonded. I’m not educated enough on this round.

Not directed at Hotrodder, necessarily:
Saying M193 is garbage is a bit much. Its far from the best tool, but two or three rounds in the chest at typical home defense ranges will provide good results. I would take it over a G19 with HST for that role. Again, there are way better options available.

The four rounds at the top of my list, currently: M855a1, BH 77TMK, Barnes 62 or 70, Fusion MSR. All for slightly different reasons. It would be nice if someone made a 5.56 75 Gold Dot. Would replace the Fusion 62, and the 77’s in my use.

[d2wing]

Expanding bullets are clearly much better than fragmenting bullets for everything except for small critters. Fragmenting by itself is not reliable.

[yoni]

I had very good results from the IMI 55 grin bullet, I stayed with slow twist barrels and was in a position to hunt them down. I went through multiple barrels through the years but that 55 grain bullet out of my Israeli made commando was great.

Are modern bullets better, sure but if you have a 1 in10 or 1in 12 barrel and 55 grain FMJ bullets don't lose sleep over it.

[ggammell]

Expanding bullets are clearly much better than fragmenting bullets for everything except for small critters. Fragmenting by itself is not reliable.

Cool necropost. Adds a lot.

[Straight Shooter]

I had very good results from the IMI 55 grin bullet, I stayed with slow twist barrels and was in a position to hunt them down. I went through multiple barrels through the years but that 55 grain bullet out of my Israeli made commando was great.

Are modern bullets better, sure but if you have a 1 in10 or 1in 12 barrel and 55 grain FMJ bullets don't lose sleep over it.

Ive heard Clint Smith say about the same, he has no prob with it. Under 300, I dont either.

[Todd.K]

It's not the twist being slow. M193 fragments equally inconsistently out of 14, 12, and 7 twist. Except 14 twist in subzero temperatures can tumble.

[MegademiC]

It's not the twist being slow. M193 fragments equally inconsistently out of 14, 12, and 7 twist. Except 14 twist in subzero temperatures can tumble.

This.
No actual twist rate will stabilize a bullet in flesh.
Yaw makes a difference and is barrel dependent, but I think thats more of an m855 thing.

[ABNAK]

It's not the twist being slow. M193 fragments equally inconsistently out of 14, 12, and 7 twist. Except 14 twist in subzero temperatures can tumble.

That's why I don't get the M193 obsession. Sure, if you only had a 1:12 twist or only had M193 available (or if it was 1969) then I can see the argument. But in 2020 there are faster twists as standard production and MUCH better bullet choices, most of them being heavier. M193 is great for plinking or training so you don't shoot up your good stuff, but for real-world applications today? Not so much.

Both M855A1 and Mk318 utilize fragmentation as part of their wounding mechanism. However, both also have a core that penetrates beyond the fragging (unlike M193). Best of both worlds?

[Todd.K]

I'm not limited to mil issue ammo. Those who are don't get to choose.

I haven't seen the price and availability on those make me want to compare performance vs the LE stuff that is.

I think a basic load in mags x2 of premium ammo should come first.
Then I'm not concerned with stacked deep ammo not being premium. In fact I like it to also be for training, so M193 fits.

[WS6]

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[ST911]

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That 62 TSX is a great load.

[BoringGuy45]

That's why I don't get the M193 obsession. Sure, if you only had a 1:12 twist or only had M193 available (or if it was 1969) then I can see the argument. But in 2020 there are faster twists as standard production and MUCH better bullet choices, most of them being heavier. M193 is great for plinking or training so you don't shoot up your good stuff, but for real-world applications today? Not so much.

Both M855A1 and Mk318 utilize fragmentation as part of their wounding mechanism. However, both also have a core that penetrates beyond the fragging (unlike M193). Best of both worlds?

The M193 obsession comes down to two things:
1) It's cheap. For the same reason people buy off-brand, low quality guns and claim that you're "just paying for the name" with the high quality weapons, they want to think the same thing about ammo.

2) It offends the core sensibility that technology is NEVER the answer. The answer always needs to be "Shot placement. Train more and make your shots count and it won't matter kind of bullets you're using..."

[vicious_cb]

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Have you gotten your hands on the new Black Hills/Lehigh ammo? I dont care much for Lehigh products but maybe Black Hills did some tweaking I am not aware of.

[ABNAK]

That 62 TSX is a great load.

Yes, it does look impressive. I would note, however, that it was fired from a 20" barrel where the other two were fired from a 14.5" and a 16" barrel.

[ST911]

Yes, it does look impressive. I would note, however, that it was fired from a 20" barrel where the other two were fired from a 14.5" and a 16" barrel.

Less difference than you'd think between the 20 and 16, and more evident through barriers than bare gel. Pub velocity for the load pictured (.223) is 3025 from a 24". Velocity from one of my 16" is ~2770. I use the 5.56 variant, which is ~100fps faster and even better.

[WS6]

Have you gotten your hands on the new Black Hills/Lehigh ammo? I dont care much for Lehigh products but maybe Black Hills did some tweaking I am not aware of.

I have a box en route.
Projectile is 62gr CCCu from Lehigh, untweaked.

[daddyusmaximus]

I like the 193.

In fact, I love the 193. It's what I learned to shoot with in basic way back in 1981. The biggest portion of my ammo stash... you guessed it, 193. Here's why. It's cheap, it's reliable, it's easily available, and it'll get the job done.

Is it my duty ammo? Nope. Not any more. It's a good back up plan if need be, but I use it to train with. We train more than we fight, so that's the type of ammo we need the most of anyway... right? Why the 193? Because it's cheap, it's reliable, it's easily available, and it'll get the job done.

However, there are much better rounds to select from these days to use as a defensive round. Sure, they cost a bit more, but everything is a bit more these days, and just like I learned in the Army, service ammo is more expensive that training ammo... Only difference is that 193 doesn't come outta the box painted blue.

My bolt gun uses the Fed 62gr tactical bonded. It's a good round, and more important, it's what the gun likes. This isn't a combat carbine. This is a precision rifle, and though shot placement ALWAYS counts, with this weapon, it's paramount.

My ARs use either the Hornady 75gr TAP, or the IMI 77gr OTM LR MOD 1. I may have to go to some other easier to find rounds to build up my duty ammo supply, but for now, this is what I've been going with.

I also have a quantity of PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ for training ammo. It's even cheaper than the 193. It also has noticeably less recoil, so is most likely a much weaker round. (it's .223, not 5.56 for one thing)


I will add this... If the SHTF, EOTWAWKI, Boogaloo, what ever they call it these days comes, and I run out of everything but the 193... I'll still by a dangerous old man.


Providing I make it that long.

[ABNAK]

Less difference than you'd think between the 20 and 16, and more evident through barriers than bare gel. Pub velocity for the load pictured (.223) is 3025 from a 24". Velocity from one of my 16" is ~2770. I use the 5.56 variant, which is ~100fps faster and even better.

Is that also a Black Hills load?

[WS6]

I taxed this from another website. User "LEID" was the shooter.

"Exit wound @75yds. with 5.56MM 62GR. CCCu from a 10.5" w can"-LEID
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/42284/5_56MM_62GR__CCCu_exit_wound_from_10_5_a-1357095.JPG
No bones were hit.

[ST911]

Is that also a Black Hills load?

Yes. The 62 TSX is available in both a .223 and 5.56 load.

[ABNAK]

Yes. The 62 TSX is available in both a .223 and 5.56 load.

I bought 200 rounds of it last night. Yikes! It ain't cheap, that's for sure.

Wonder if Black Hills uses a CFE-type powder with these copper TSX bullets?

[vicious_cb]

I taxed this from another website. User "LEID" was the shooter.

"Exit wound @75yds. with 5.56MM 62GR. CCCu from a
No bones were hit.

Interesting results. I always found Lehigh designs to be gimmicky. Does this offer anything that Mk318 doesn't already do?

[WS6]

I bought 200 rounds of it last night. Yikes! It ain't cheap, that's for sure.

Wonder if Black Hills uses a CFE-type powder with these copper TSX bullets?

They do not. This said, I've shot lots of black hills tsx, and have friends that have too. Noone has seen a copper issue.

[WS6]

Interesting results. I always found Lehigh designs to be gimmicky. Does this offer anything that Mk318 doesn't already do?

Reliable 100% petal separation down to 1500fps in ordnance gel. I'm not sure about mk318, but doubt its anywhere near this. Also, allegedly much more accurate.

[indianalex01]

Reliable 100% petal separation down to 1500fps in ordnance gel. I'm not sure about mk318, but doubt its anywhere near this. Also, allegedly much more accurate.

MK318 will frag down 1500 FPS or even lower. It’s accurate. 1.5 for the MK318 Mod 1. It is a great load. Any of the loads just mentioned are awesome though.

[ABNAK]

MK318 will frag down 1500 FPS or even lower. It’s accurate. 1.5 for the MK318 Mod 1. It is a great load. Any of the loads just mentioned are awesome though.

I've got 1K+ of the Mod 0, is the Mod 1 that much better?

[indianalex01]

I've got 1K+ of the Mod 0, is the Mod 1 that much better?

It has a little better Ballistic coefficient and it’s non lead. They pretty much the same. Mod 1 is a silver looking projectile vice copper colored.

[ABNAK]

It has a little better Ballistic coefficient and it’s non lead. They pretty much the same. Mod 1 is a silver looking projectile vice copper colored.

Yeah first time I saw a pic of the Mod 1 I thought "Werewolf round"!

[WS6]

MK318 will frag down 1500 FPS or even lower. It’s accurate. 1.5 for the MK318 Mod 1. It is a great load. Any of the loads just mentioned are awesome though.

Interesting. What do you base the fragmentation data on? Gel, game, industry data?

[Alpha-17]

The lowest velocity I've seen Mk 318 tested with came in at 1990ish, with great expansion/fragmentation. I'd also love to see the 1500fps test.