View Full Version : Anyone loading 6.5 Creed for a gas gun?
Asking for a friend.. :secret:
I just started working on loads for both my 6.5mm Creedmoor and 6mm Creedmoor.
Don't know if I can provide much info or help, but I can try.
Yes sir.
Dumb luck perhaps, but I tried the same ammo I load for bolt guns- it shot just under MOA.
I’ve only shot to 600 with it, but it was still just under MOA.
Hornady brass, brass trimmed to 2.10”, CCI BR2, 140 ELD-M, COAL 2.815”.
Tried both RL16 and 17. Went with RL16 because of it’s reported temperature stability, we have extremes of temperature here. Loading 41.8 gr, SDs are 15+-.
Not a hot load, velocity is 2730 FPS from 22” barrel.
Hope it works out for your friend.
Thanks. We might be experimenting with a load/barrel soon.... just want to get any tips that we can.
We have H4350, which is supposed to be good 6.5 powder, so I hear.
Mark, Don said he is loading 40 grains H4350 , FGGM primers , 140 ELD , Horndog brass.
PB
4350 appears to be the “go to” powder for 6.5 PB.
The load you referenced seems a bit low from all I’ve read.
Here’s sample link: http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=7369.0
I just did some ladder testing for my Aero based 6.5 Creedmoor. This is from a 22" Rainier Ultramatch barrel with a rifle length gas system and SLR Sentry 9 adjustable gas block.
I worked up from the middle of the charge range to the max charge published in the Hornady manual for H4350 using a 147gr ELD Match. Actually, I went .1 grain over the max. Charges were 38.6gr - 40.4gr. Primers I used were CCI 200's.The brass was twice fired Hornady sized with the shoulder being bumped back .004. The cases were trimmed to 1.910 and projectiles seated for a COAL of 2.795. I haven't checked the distance to the lands yet. This was just looking for the starting group. As charge weights increased, there was some flattening of primers and some slight cratering. No swipes were encountered. I use a standard 308 bolt, not one of the HP offerings. Maybe I'll change it out at some point.
For my rifle, the 38.6gr produced the smallest group. I went ahead and loaded up some more tests using 38.6gr to test repeatability.
Performance wasn't bad. Average velocity was 2543 fps. Brass and primers were all in good shape. Given the atmospherics (93° F/59% H, 30.02 in Hg ) JBM showed max range at just below 1400 yds. SD was a little high, but I'm thinking the rounds were getting heated in the chamber. My reasoning was there was an increase in velocity when I took longer to take following shots. I have some more work to do with this load. I am thinking of trying some of the Alliant powders since some have posted interesting results. Bolt gun may be able to mess with more and wring some more out of it.
These are the results:
53361
It boggles my mind how the ballistics of the 6.5 are so impressive. How these low velocities shoot so far. I mean 2500 fps range and hitting 1,400 range. I guess my 300 would go a mile, I just dont have a mile to shoot it.
gaijin, thanks for the link, interesting link. With lot variation in powders, its all about a decent starting point and working up. We will let you know how it turns out next week.
PB
Agreed. 6mm Creedmoor looks promising too. Smallest group on the ladder was produced using 1 gr more powder than the 6.5 load. This pushed a 108 ELD Match around 500 fps faster. Ballistics for it with the same conditions (both shot within an hour of each other) show it with similar distances. Rifle is almost the same configuration.
I'll do repeatability tests on it next range trip, but I'll tweak that powder charge a little too see if the group comes in a little more. It was in sub moa at 100, but not as tight as the 6.5.
hotrodder636
08-13-18, 20:28
Most of what I have seen is H4340 (around 39 grains) under a 140 ELD Match using CCI BR primers. I have a bunch of the Hornady Match factory ammo but once shot up going to run my own loads.
Good thread here though, would like to see some real wolrld results posted.
Pappabear bought a bunch of Hornady ammo for the brass too. We'll be shooting both factory and handloads soon.
Factory Hornady shot lights out for me but was slow.
Bought some initially for the brass.
Look forward to your results.
I've shot several hundred factory Hornady rounds. It all shot pretty well. Velocities were around the same as my loads or sometimes a little higher by 25-40 fps faster.
The thing I noticed was primer craters. Some would have bad ones and others none. This was the same for Hunter and/or Match. The American Gunner by Hornady has been very consistent and shot well. It is 140 gr BTHP.
The same primer results occurred with factory ammo in my 6mm Creedmoor.
I have to find it again, but I think RL16, RL17 and RL26 have been used. I could be wrong on the RL26 though, I believe most of the loads were used in bolt guns. From what I remember, RL17 is not as temperature stable as H4350.
So, at 100 yrds, if one has a load that runs a leisurely pace but hits in the .3 MOA group size, and another load that is a rocket but hits .6 MOA, which is the preferred load for the 1,000 yd shot?
Or, stated another way, should one concede 3 inches of group size at 1,000 yds to save 20+/- inches of wind deflection or elevation?
So, at 100 yrds, if one has a load that runs a leisurely pace but hits in the .3 MOA group size, and another load that is a rocket but hits .6 MOA, which is the preferred load for the 1,000 yd shot?
Or, stated another way, should one concede 3 inches of group size at 1,000 yds to save 20+/- inches of wind deflection or elevation?
We would. The hotter the berry, the sweeter the juice.
I took the smaller group. The change in velocity in my testing was around 60 fps min to max charge of my testing range. Even the change in velocity for the full range of charge weights is 300 fps.
Max effective distance for my lower load is still plenty far for me. The increase in velocity will have more energy at distance, but the lower charge beats the brass less as well as the weapon itself.
I won't mention the shooter, I'm old and don't care for recoil... but in all reality any of the 6's I have aren't heavy on recoil.
Which to choose is up to the shooter. I'm happy with the performance of the charge I went with for the reasons I've listed. It's preference, a person's choice for them is not right or wrong and I'm sure my choice is not right or wrong for me. Although... if you asked my a wife I'm sure ya'll can guess what she'd say.
53393
I'm interested in playing with this round. We've usually had good luck with a hot load also being pretty accurate.
I do have to admit that our house .223 77 gr target load is not very hot.... so we'll see what Pappa's barrel wants/likes.
I'm interested in playing with this round. We've usually had good luck with a hot load also being pretty accurate.
I do have to admit that our house .223 77 gr target load is not very hot.... so we'll see what Pappa's barrel wants/likes.
Sounds good. Looking forward to seeing your results.
I have 100 rounds of premium 143 ELD' , factory fodder. I'm going to buy a can of the American gunner for mass reloading brass.
Mid south , or I should say I doubled ordered my bullets , so I have about 2 years of bullets. 140 and 143 ELD's.
I'm just about ready to work some loads up for my bolt gun (browning X-bolt). Hornady Precision Hunter 143gr ELD-X was .60 moa out of the box for me. Also tried the cheapo S&B 140 FMJ which was around moa. I'm curious if the ELD-X or ELD-M stuff feeds well out of the magazine for you semi-auto guys at factory SAAMI seating depth. My mag can fit up to 2.889 COAL which also happens to be where it touches the lands. ELD-X shot fantastic with the jump from 2.808 factory COAL though.
Next on the list to try is American Gunner 140gr and 147gr ELD-M.
I may be crazy, but I love ball powder for ease of measurement. So Ramshot hunter is going to be my first attempted powder.
Also H4350 is nearly unobtanium locally. Too many 6.5creed bros around here.
We loaded up the 168 and 178 ELD's in 7.62 for my LMT MWS and it cycled them like a dream. But that gun eats chews spits anything.
PB
22" JP barrel with JP high pressure bolt....
39.9g of Varget
123g Hornady A-Max
Hornady Brass
dont know the primer
2.800(whatever mag length is in a pmag)
Shoots 2900fps. ES and SD were both REALLY low(dont remember the numbers off the top of my head). Confirmed on 6" gongs at 900 yards... Numbers were maybe .1-.2 mil off of JBM drop numbers.
So far ive got 2 loadings on each piece of brass(started with 1000 brand new), if I get a 3rd loading I will be surprised. Hornady brass sucks, gas guns eat brass, im pushing the shit out of it.
ETA: JP, when I built my gun with their barrel, was recommending the lighter weight stuff in the gas guns. They had written a good paper on it and the reasons why. I believe they could get much faster speeds without pressure issues and the lighter bullets, even though a bit less aerodynamic than the heavier stuff, flew better due to the speeds.
I'm just about ready to work some loads up for my bolt gun (browning X-bolt). Hornady Precision Hunter 143gr ELD-X was .60 moa out of the box for me. Also tried the cheapo S&B 140 FMJ which was around moa. I'm curious if the ELD-X or ELD-M stuff feeds well out of the magazine for you semi-auto guys at factory SAAMI seating depth. My mag can fit up to 2.889 COAL which also happens to be where it touches the lands. ELD-X shot fantastic with the jump from 2.808 factory COAL though.
Next on the list to try is American Gunner 140gr and 147gr ELD-M.
I may be crazy, but I love ball powder for ease of measurement. So Ramshot hunter is going to be my first attempted powder.
Also H4350 is nearly unobtanium locally. Too many 6.5creed bros around here.
The ELD 140 and 143s have fed without incident for me.
Re. 4350; same deal here. When I started this 6 months ago, 4350 was not to be had. I ran across 3, 8’s of RL16 which I’d worked up load for. No regrets at this point.
When I started this 6 months ago, 4350 was not to be had.
Because Pappabear was buying it for a barrel he did not yet have.:shout:
Here's the chronograph data. I'll only run a series of 5 shots to collect the data- good enough for government work and I don't want all shots with the Magnetospeed hanging off the end of the barrel.
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 9 Shots: 5 6.5 CM
Min 2763 Max 2780 Hornady 123 gr ELD
Avg 2770 S-D 7.4 39.0 Varget
ES 17
Series Shot Speed
9 1 2765 ft/s
9 2 2780 ft/s
9 3 2777 ft/s
9 4 2763 ft/s
9 5 2769 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 10 Shots: 5 6.5 CM
Min 2455 Max 2478 Nosler 140 gr RDF
Avg 2465 S-D 10.8 40.0 IMR 4350
ES 23
Series Shot Speed
10 1 2476 ft/s
10 2 2456 ft/s
10 3 2478 ft/s
10 4 2455 ft/s
10 5 2464 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Pretty happy with the velocity of the 123's / Varget combo. I could push either one harder- I have not hit the top of the recommended loads, plus I am using the JP high pressure BCG in case I want to run a little hot.
S-D of 7.4 / ES 17 isn't bad for using a cheap powder scale, plus the gas gun X-factor. It's worth about 4.5" elevation variance at 1000 yards. Compare to the Winchester Match 140 factory ammo, with a ES of 93 and a S-D of 34.5. That would be frustrating at the 1000 yard distance.
Here's the chronograph data. I'll only run a series of 5 shots to collect the data- good enough for government work and I don't want all shots with the Magnetospeed hanging off the end of the barrel.
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 9 Shots: 5 6.5 CM
Min 2763 Max 2780 Hornady 123 gr ELD
Avg 2770 S-D 7.4 39.0 Varget
ES 17
Series Shot Speed
9 1 2765 ft/s
9 2 2780 ft/s
9 3 2777 ft/s
9 4 2763 ft/s
9 5 2769 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
S-D of 7.4 / ES 17 isn't bad for using a cheap powder scale, plus the gas gun X-factor. It's worth about 4.5" elevation variance at 1000 yards. Compare to the Winchester Match 140 factory ammo, with a ES of 93 and a S-D of 34.5. That would be frustrating at the 1000 yard distance.
What is your barrel length?
Not a gas gun, but I ended up with RL16 myself. Pushes the 143 eld-x faster than h4350 with same consistency and great temp stability. For the ball powder crowd, I had good results with superformance for velocity. Just not as consistent as RL16. So 16 is my powder...
It appears R16 is a legit 6.5 powder. This thread intro's Varget to the table too, interesting.
PB
Good to know about RL16. I may try that out next. Thanks for the info.
I've also been thinking to try Superformance. Although that is supposed to be temp sensitive as well.
Great thing is a lot of what is being discussed can be ported to my other rifle as well.
It appears R16 is a legit 6.5 powder. This thread intro's Varget to the table too, interesting.
4350 needs to work. I can't run Vargito in this load.
What's your barrel length? 24" I forget how many fps is lost per inch, but I'll be dropping a few at 20" plus the gas powered issue will suck a few fps.
The 123's at 2770 fps muzzle are still good for supersonic at 1000 yards, so if I push a little harder to ~2850 fps +-, should be in more than good enough shape. Eyeballing the primers and judging by the felt recoil, looks like the load is relatively mild.
What's your barrel length? 24" I forget how many fps is lost per inch, but I'll be dropping a few at 20" plus the gas powered issue will suck a few fps.
The 123's at 2770 fps muzzle are still good for supersonic at 1000 yards, so if I push a little harder to ~2850 fps +-, should be in more than good enough shape. Eyeballing the primers and judging by the felt recoil, looks like the load is relatively mild.
I bought the 20 inch barrel, they have a 24 but I didn't want that stick with can 200 feet long in my gas gun. I knew I was sacrificing, but Ill get a bolt with a 24 down the road.
PB
What's your barrel length? 24"
Your speeds with the varget and 123g seem slow out of 24" barrel.
Im shooting 130-140fps faster than you out of 2" less barrel with only .9g more powder. I wouldnt think .9g more powder would be THAT much of an increase.
My load in your 24" barrel would, in theory be going 2950 or so(25fps per inch, supposedly), which is almost 200fps faster than your load.
After we loaded and loaded and loaded and found massive lot to lot variations. So you really can’t compare one lot to another. Lotta factors. Sometime they are dead on sometimes you lose 100fps in lots.
PB
Exactly. I hate to even post load data anymore after the last few chrono tests we've run.
PB- you mentioned mixing 8's(?) of powder.
How sophisticated to you get with mixing, or is it a "dump in a 5 gal. bucket and stir" deal?
I have 3-8's of RL16 I'd like to combine and do load workup once.
PB- you mentioned mixing 8's(?) of powder.
How sophisticated to you get with mixing, or is it a "dump in a 5 gal. bucket and stir" deal?
I have 3-8's of RL16 I'd like to combine and do load workup once.
I have 8 one pound cans and one 8 lb jug. We dump in 5 gallon bullet, stir mix and reload in jugs. If there is a better way, please advise.
PB
Yeah.... last time I bought a plastic tub to blend a bunch of Varget. The amount of 4350 will work in a bucket. It's a pain in the ass, but lot changes have eaten my ass alive in the past, and I never knew it was killing me.
Same.
I did notice the RL16 had a substantial (for long range) difference in velocity- lot to lot.
Never "mixed" before, but I pictured; "dump in CLEAN bucket/tub (plastic), stir thoroughly, pour back in 8# containers".
I'm in.
Thanks.
6.5 barrel installed, semi annual removal of 1 pound of carbon, gunk, and fowling.
https://i.imgur.com/Kt24eIm.jpg
Getting close.
Work up ammo loaded?
Getting close.
Work up ammo loaded?
Tonight. Firing up the Chargemaster.
PB- you mentioned mixing 8's(?) of powder.
How sophisticated to you get with mixing, or is it a "dump in a 5 gal. bucket and stir" deal?
I have 3-8's of RL16 I'd like to combine and do load workup once.
If all your Lot numbers are the same, you don't need to mix, in all likelihood. Its when you change lot numbers you get surprised. I hope our 4350 is hotter than a baked potato.
PB
22" JP barrel with JP high pressure bolt....
39.9g of Varget
123g Hornady A-Max
Hornady Brass
dont know the primer
2.800(whatever mag length is in a pmag)
Shoots 2900fps. ES and SD were both REALLY low(dont remember the numbers off the top of my head). Confirmed on 6" gongs at 900 yards... Numbers were maybe .1-.2 mil off of JBM drop numbers.
So far ive got 2 loadings on each piece of brass(started with 1000 brand new), if I get a 3rd loading I will be surprised. Hornady brass sucks, gas guns eat brass, im pushing the shit out of it.
ETA: JP, when I built my gun with their barrel, was recommending the lighter weight stuff in the gas guns. They had written a good paper on it and the reasons why. I believe they could get much faster speeds without pressure issues and the lighter bullets, even though a bit less aerodynamic than the heavier stuff, flew better due to the speeds.
So I just started down the path of load workup for my 6.5. I also read the stuff JP had about loading for the 6.5 in a gas gun. Mine is 24" McGowen custom barrel, 24", 8.5 twist, and. Fulton high pressure bolt.
First range trip was yesterday.
123 gr Nosler Custom Comp's
Hornady brass, new
CCI-200's
38.5 gr Varget
Loaded to 2.750 OAL (couldn't go much longer as virtually no bullet in the case due to the boat tail)
Very mild load. No case swipes, brass looked perfect, and primers were nice and rounded with no cratering. Despite zero load development, produced several 200 yard 5 shot groups in the 1.25-1.5" range. 10 shot groups right around 1.5-1.75".
I am bumping the charge up to 39.0-39.5 next trip.
I do think that the 120-130 gr class bullets just work really well in a gas gun. They can be pushed fast enough to crutch their lower BC and they are definitely easier on brass. Recoil is minimal and probably the Pinnacle of the ballistics/accuracy than can be easily achieved from a semi auto!
We took out the barrel today and it went pretty well. The Am. Gunner 140 grain ammo shot faster than I expected, 2638fps with an SD of 5. Pretty impressive for bulk ammo. Mark loaded up a ladder starting at 39.4 of H4350 and finished with 40.4 grains. We did 3 rounds of each and feel we found the low node at 36.6. The first three loads all had the SD5 and 2536-2540 fps. So we could bulk load the 143's and be very consistent loading for 39.6 and if we were a little high or low, we would still be dead on. ( thanks Don). But we feel that we need to go higher to find the high end and we want to be on the high node.
With the limited 3 shot groups nothing shot over moa and mostly closer to .5 to .75 groups of three. Several were two shots in one hole and one other right beside it. Only one load was a full MOA , 40.2, so whatever. The last group was 40.4 and we saw 2593 fps. We expect next trip to find the sweet spot at over 2,600 fps. If we can find a high node there, then thats our load for a bit.
I sent Mark a chart if we can get it uploaded.
PB
Using your 39.6 accuracy node, I would have expected the scatter center to be ~40.6, which you saw starting at 40.2 and probably 40.4 as well.
So your next node above that is like 41.8-42g. THATS going to be a stout load since its just at and over max per Hodgdon at 41.8... BUT its worth exploring above book max to see what goes on in your gun. I would creep up on it obviously. In mine, with Varget and 123's, book max is 39.8... Im at 39.9 and running right at their velocity numbers should be(their 39.8 data says 2888, im at 2900 with .1g more). I think I was all the way up just over 41g before I hit pressure, in my gun. There was no way I was going to my next accuracy node(theoretically 42.3g).
Rjacobs, that's what I noticed as well. Although I was using 147's. At 38.6 grouping was right on and has been. When I hit book max, there was pressure signs. Velocities at 38.6 have been right along book value. Couple that with nothing getting beat and distances from ballistics being what they are I didn't bother going higher. When I get my bolt gun built there may be some room to play.
I’m hoping when I get a bolt down the road , that I can use same ammo, but the bolts do tolerate pressure so much better it’s hard not to push the load up.
And when you max out distance, it’s even more tempting to tweak your load.
6.5 barrel installed, semi annual removal of 1 pound of carbon, gunk, and fowling.
Good to see you have the critical gun cleaning item, beer.
Good to see you have the critical gun cleaning item, beer.
The first item in any cleaning kit.
Little load dev with Ramshot hunter and 143gr ELD-X, Hornady brass and CCI200's in my browning X-bolt hells canyon LR.
.020 off the lands.
Seems to love 42.5
Ramshot Hunter ELDX 42.5gr Best Group .585 MOA
2768.75
2763.06
2765.58
2768.75
2768.75
Std Dev 2.6
Average 2767.0
The big surprise was Hornady American Gunner 140gr throwing out a .438 MOA group despite a 23 SD. Not bad for 60ish cents a round factory ammo.
9/1/2018 70F
Hornady American Gunner 140gr
2692.38
2649.37
2700.79
2706.23
2699.59
Std Dev 23.1
Average 2689.7
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180902/9212dcbcc4a9dccf6abc4851889f2b66.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180902/2e285537db5261074304f973e18d683f.jpg
Some more data to contribute. Shot the 24" McGowen at 1k and officially joined the 1000 yard gas gun club. It was windy, 10-15 mph and gusty, but still managed to make 40% hits at a 0.8 MOA Target at 1k.
Load data was very simple, 123 Noslers over 39.0 gr Varget, Hornady brass, and CCI-200 primer. OAL was around 2.750, couldn't load longer as there wasn't enough bullet in the case. Velocity based on dope was in the 2850-2875 range. Brass and primers looked perfect, and gun was 100% reliable. Held pretty decent vertical at 1k.
May end up bumping the charge a bit more to 39.2-39.4 but overall very pleased.
We had some vertical stringing going on Sunday with the 143 gr eld and 40.8 gr of H4350. Still working out a load.
We had some vertical stringing going on Sunday with the 143 gr eld and 40.8 gr of H4350. Still working out a load.I think you'll find your node much higher around 41.6-42ish assuming your chamber agrees. At least that seems to be the sweet spot my friend is finding with this combo in the bolt gun.
I think you'll find your node much higher around 41.6-42ish assuming your chamber agrees. At least that seems to be the sweet spot my friend is finding with this combo in the bolt gun.
Yep. I should have loaded the 41.8 instead, but we had a miss communication.
The strange thing was when we did the ladder test with 3 rounds each, none of the loads gave vertical stringing. And this load did it with consistently. Very annoying.
PB
Well, I'm finding 143gr ELDX is really a challenge for load development in the X-bolt. I think I'm finally making some headway with seating depth testing and what I'm finding is these seem to like jump.
This makes sense why precision hunter factory ammo seems to turn out consistent sub-moa results with a COAL around SAAMI length. I wish I had started there instead of .020 off the lands because the sweet spot in my gun appears to be around .055 jump to the lands.
Aren't the ELD variants hybrid? Not that they couldn't run better with a jump.
You know the nuances of reloading are astounding. I pointed out to Big D this Thursday that our 178 ELDS in 308 were good not great. He noted its interesting that Hornady makes factory 169 or 16x ( can’t remember hornadys grain weight) but not the heavy 178 bullets.
The little things make a big difference
I pointed out to Big D this Thursday that our 178 ELDS in 308 were good not great.
We'll try them in that RPR.
That’s a solid plan. Might be just the ticket
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