View Full Version : Sionics Extreme Reduced Gas Port Barrel, Range Report
As many of you know, Sionics is now making a True suppressor ready barrel. Mark did a measurement of the port and it looks to be in the 062 range. I have two SBR's and ran them side by side. Both have A5 and LMT enhanced carriers. Both have Vltor monolithic uppers and AAC M4-2K cans. The first runs with the original 11.5 RGP barrel by Sionics, it runs very well and throws the brass slightly forward in the 2-2:30 range. A little hot as one would expect with the AAC can and all. Runs 100% flawless, no complaints.
Gun two with ERGP Sionics barrel and it ran as would be expected, a little smoother. Tossing brass in the 3-3:30 range and a bit softer. I was most impressed with this barrel. It is not supposed to run ammo without a can but we were able to run Blackhills and "Mark-hills" loads getting lock-back some of the time but not all the time. Also, the gun was cleaned and freshly greased. Which tells me this barrel is ported perfectly to run a can. I don't want a barrel that runs so soft it becomes unreliable at anytime under any condition. I was a bit worried it would shoot great at the expense of reliability, not going to be the case.
If you are going too run your SBR suppressed, and you want a 11.5 barrel, this is one great option. I honestly wished my other 11.5 was the newer barrel. I don't think I would call it Extreme RGP barrel, I would call it the perfect GP barrel. Its ideal not extreme.
We were busy running a new load of 178 ELD's for the LMT MWS, so we didn't give it as much time as we will next week, running more types of ammo and maybe some lowers without A5 and enhanced carriers. More data to follow, and any request let us know. Also, we will do some accuracy testing for shits and giggles. Even thought I think 2 to 3 MOA is fine for a 11.5 SBR, I always like better.
Again, more data to follow.
PB
I'd love to see how it shoots the Markm house loads. I've come to use them as a metric of performance for almost any 223/5.56 rifle I try. I even keep a spare bag of the 69gr loads in my range bag in case a buddy is having trouble and wants me to shoot good ammo through his rifle.
I'd love to see how it shoots the Markm house loads. I've come to use them as a metric of performance for almost any 223/5.56 rifle I try. I even keep a spare bag of the 69gr loads in my range bag in case a buddy is having trouble and wants me to shoot good ammo through his rifle.
That was the "Mark hills" load in jest. But we didn't test accuracy. Next week.
PB
Very much appreciate the report on these barrels as I am about to "pull the trigger" on one.
Curious as to what sort of accuracy potential you think it has and what type of sight(s) are you running on it.
snackgunner
08-13-18, 01:59
So they have 2 different barrels now. A rgp and a ergp barrel?
So they have 2 different barrels now. A rgp and a ergp barrel?
Yes, The original RGP was meant for optimal suppressed use but could cycle un-suppresed if needed at the request of Peoria PD for worst case scenarios. We have now publically released a true suppressor only barrel. It may lock back with certain loads but by all means is not meant to EVER be run without a can,
As many of you know, Sionics is now making a True suppressor ready barrel. Mark did a measurement of the port and it looks to be in the 062 range. I have two SBR's and ran them side by side. Both have A5 and LMT enhanced carriers. Both have Vltor monolithic uppers and AAC M4-2K cans. The first runs with the original 11.5 RGP barrel by Sionics, it runs very well and throws the brass slightly forward in the 2-2:30 range. A little hot as one would expect with the AAC can and all. Runs 100% flawless, no complaints.
Gun two with ERGP Sionics barrel and it ran as would be expected, a little smoother. Tossing brass in the 3-3:30 range and a bit softer. I was most impressed with this barrel. It is not supposed to run ammo without a can but we were able to run Blackhills and "Mark-hills" loads getting lock-back some of the time but not all the time. Also, the gun was cleaned and freshly greased. Which tells me this barrel is ported perfectly to run a can. I don't want a barrel that runs so soft it becomes unreliable at anytime under any condition. I was a bit worried it would shoot great at the expense of reliability, not going to be the case.
If you are going too run your SBR suppressed, and you want a 11.5 barrel, this is one great option. I honestly wished my other 11.5 was the newer barrel. I don't think I would call it Extreme RGP barrel, I would call it the perfect GP barrel. Its ideal not extreme.
We were busy running a new load of 178 ELD's for the LMT MWS, so we didn't give it as much time as we will next week, running more types of ammo and maybe some lowers without A5 and enhanced carriers. More data to follow, and any request let us know. Also, we will do some accuracy testing for shits and giggles. Even thought I think 2 to 3 MOA is fine for a 11.5 SBR, I always like better.
Again, more data to follow.
PB
Thanks for the write-up PB. Were gonna definitely produce more of these.
snackgunner
08-13-18, 09:26
Yes, The original RGP was meant for optimal suppressed use but could cycle un-suppresed if needed at the request of Peoria PD for worst case scenarios. We have now publically released a true suppressor only barrel. It may lock back with certain loads but by all means is not meant to EVER be run without a can,
So whats the benefit of the ergp barrel over the rgp barrel? Does it run "better" suppressed?
So whats the benefit of the ergp barrel over the rgp barrel? Does it run "better" suppressed?
In my opinion, the RGP is gassed just right for NO suppressor. The ERGP is gassed perfectly for dedicated suppression. It will barely run with no can.
In my haste to get the barrel installed I didn't measure the port accurately. I have a large needle that I stick in the port and then use calipers. Around 62 or 63 thou. But here's your pic of the two kids.
https://i.imgur.com/kURO4WQ.jpg
In my opinion, the RGP is gassed just right for NO suppressor. The ERGP is gassed perfectly for dedicated suppression. It will barely run with no can.
I would echo this comment and add. RGP is gassed just right with no suppressor, but still much better than many barrels you might buy from other companies.
PB
Very much appreciate the report on these barrels as I am about to "pull the trigger" on one.
Curious as to what sort of accuracy potential you think it has and what type of sight(s) are you running on it.
I would bet we could squeeze 1.5 MOA - 2 MOA. I have a red dot but will toss a 4x ACOG or maybe smoother optic to test accuracy. Accuracy is not the focus of 11.5 barrels, but we will check it out. I might also try some 50 yard accuracy as that is a more realistic range for SBR's.
PB
How do these gas port sizes (RGP & Extreme RGP) compare to the Colt FBI HRT heavy 11.5" barrels. I seem to recall the Colt barrels were approximately .070. Does that sound about right?
Also, do we know who provides the barrel blanks for Sionics? If the company considers it a trade secret I respect that.
Thank you.
How do these gas port sizes (RGP & Extreme RGP) compare to the Colt FBI HRT heavy 11.5" barrels. I seem to recall the Colt barrels were approximately .070. Does that sound about right?
Also, do we know who provides the barrel blanks for Sionics? If the company considers it a trade secret I respect that.
Thank you.
Well if the HRT barrel is .070 then it is like the RGP barrel. The Extreme has a much smaller port. Colt isn't making barrels that won't run well without a suppressor. Theirs needs to be like the RGP barrel. with or without can.
PB
Also, do we know who provides the barrel blanks for Sionics? If the company considers it a trade secret I respect that.
No idea. When I saw how nice Pappabears original RGP was, I bought one right away. The Chrome lining job looked beautiful. I don't think I've even shot mine for accuracy. I just zeroed it since it's a home defense gun... Never occurred to me to shoot groups. We'll probably do some of that with the ERGP just because we're playing with it.
Interesting. I am working on a 12.5, and plan on putting a 1-6 or 1-8 on it and shooting it as far as my land allows. I expect it to shoot 1-1.5moa just like the 14.5's. Are people saying "something happens" to make the shorter barrels less accurate? I've never observed it.
Furbyballer
08-14-18, 08:19
Interesting. I am working on a 12.5, and plan on putting a 1-6 or 1-8 on it and shooting it as far as my land allows. I expect it to shoot 1-1.5moa just like the 14.5's. Are people saying "something happens" to make the shorter barrels less accurate? I've never observed it.I take my 12.5s out to 600 regularly. Teaches you to call wind really well. I have a NF atacr 1-8 on one and a vortex 1-6 on my hodge 12.5. I havent taken a 11.5 out past 500 yet, but that's because both my sionics rgp 11.5 sbrs are defending my house haha.
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I expect it to shoot 1-1.5moa just like the 14.5's. Are people saying "something happens" to make the shorter barrels less accurate? I've never observed it.
I don't think that's what people are saying. We expecet MOA out of every barrel we get when using good ammo.
Are people saying "something happens" to make the shorter barrels less accurate? I've never observed it.
I think most people equate the shorter barrels to CQB/Home Defense distances and really haven't shot out past 100/150 with them. Kyle Defoor regularly shoots an 11.5 mini-recce out to distance. I have 10.3, 11.5, 12.5, 14.5, 14.7 and 16 inch barreled carbines and my preference is for my 12.5" Hodge gun. It is pretty much the jack of all trades/master of none upper for me, great out to 5/600 and just as good in the shoot house with minimal velocity drop from a 14.5" gun and really good suppressed. I run my Hodge 12.5" with an Aimpoint Comp M5 and Aimpoint 3X Magnifier. My LPVO's sit on my 14.5 and longer guns.
Yea I think so few people have appropriate optics for distance, no for shooting tight groups on 11.5 and below. That's red dot land. But have done it before and will pop something on it Sunday just for the record.
Shorter barrels are not inherently inaccurate.
PB
Yea I think so few people have appropriate optics for distance, no for shooting tight groups on 11.5 and below. That's red dot land. But have done it before and will pop something on it Sunday just for the record.
Shorter barrels are not inherently inaccurate.
PB
I understand that. I need at least 3x to shoot moa at 100+ yards. I'm an LPVO convert though after a few carbine courses. Debating which one to out on the 12.5 I'm getting. NX8, Atacr, etc.
I understand that. I need at least 3x to shoot moa at 100+ yards. I'm an LPVO convert though after a few carbine courses. Debating which one to out on the 12.5 I'm getting. NX8, Atacr, etc.
Those are some good options, id love 1-8 NF scope , one day ...
PB
As I recall the FBI barrel was around .070/.071 ish range. I think someone posted it elsewhere here.
As I recall the FBI barrel was around .070/.071 ish range. I think someone posted it elsewhere here.
That's the same as CRANE's 10.3". How much difference in "function" does another 1" or so of barrel make? I mean, if you had to equate a 0.065" ported 11.5 to a 10.3", what is that equivalent to?
For example "0.065" in an 11.5" is like 0.070 in a 10.3" due to less dwell." or something
I mean, if you had to equate a 0.065" ported 11.5 to a 10.3", what is that equivalent to?
For example "0.065" in an 11.5" is like 0.070 in a 10.3" due to less dwell." or something
In my experience, .065 in 11.5 would be like .067-.068 in a 10.3". Both gassed on the lean side of unsuppressed functionality.
In my experience, .065 in 11.5 would be like .067-.068 in a 10.3". Both gassed on the lean side of unsuppressed functionality.
So on a 12.5, it would be like a 0.062-0.063?
So on a 12.5, it would be like a 0.062-0.063?
I've never messed with a 12.5". But I'd estimate .063-.064" would be close. Between 10.3 and 11.5, I haven't notices a real difference in porting function. (i.e. a .068" runs very similar in both) But stretching that dwell out to a 12.5" might start making more of a difference.
So on a 12.5, it would be like a 0.062-0.063?
I believe Centurion’s 12.5 is 0.0625
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Grant measured the 11.5" FBI barrel at .069"
This is equivalent gas drive to the CRANE 10.3" at .071"
The timing ratios are different, of course.
As I recall the FBI barrel was around .070/.071 ish range. I think someone posted it elsewhere here.
That's the same as CRANE's 10.3". How much difference in "function" does another 1" or so of barrel make? I mean, if you had to equate a 0.065" ported 11.5 to a 10.3", what is that equivalent to?
For example "0.065" in an 11.5" is like 0.070 in a 10.3" due to less dwell." or something
Furbyballer
08-16-18, 10:37
I believe Centurion’s 12.5 is 0.0625
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYea, so is hodges 12.5 gas port.
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I believe Centurion’s 12.5 is 0.0625
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That's oddly specific. Are you sure it wasn't a typo describing gas block journal of 0.625"? I thought they were 0.065's.
Jwknutson17
08-16-18, 13:32
That's oddly specific. Are you sure it wasn't a typo describing gas block journal of 0.625"? I thought they were 0.065's.
Centurions spec is .0650. I have had one, and only one pin between .0625/.0630. The other 4 I have or have had pin at .0650.
Centurions spec is .0650. I have had one, and only one pin between .0625/.0630. The other 4 I have or have had pin at .0650.
How did that one run without a can *what buffer/ammo/spring/etc?
Centurions spec is .0650. I have had one, and only one pin between .0625/.0630. The other 4 I have or have had pin at .0650.
I can second this. I pin gaged my 12.5" barrel and it was right at .063". Mine ran unsuppressed with a Sprinco Green spring and an A5H4. With that setup it was right on the edge of function, though. As soon as my gas tube started to wear, the gun would not lock back with 5.56 pressure ammo and wouldn't cycle with .223 ammo. I've since backed it off to a BCM rifle spring and an A5H2. Runs perfect, suppressed or unsuppressed.
I have pulled my Burris XTR 1-8 off my Reece build and tossed it on the ERGP barrel to test the accuracy. 1 to 2 MOA is acceptable for a SBR HD gun, but will see what it can do. Range report to follow.
PB
vicious_cb
08-18-18, 20:12
Thats odd, Centurion gas ports have always been on the larger side
0.069" for 14.5" Carbine and 0.080" for 16" Mid when I called them.
How do you pin gauge something?
1)the pin freely slides into the oriface, as in, it would literally almost fall in. Nearly zero drag.
2)the pin slides in with some drag, but no pushing is required. You can still spin it with your fingers while fully passed into and beyond the oriface.
3) the pin begins with some force, and you bet you could lightly tap it all the way, but a pinch grip with bare fingers only allows you to push it half the way through the oriface.
I have pulled my Burris XTR 1-8 off my Reece build and tossed it on the ERGP barrel to test the accuracy. 1 to 2 MOA is acceptable for a SBR HD gun, but will see what it can do. Range report to follow.
PB
It would be destructive, but I'd love to see a test done with an H buffer, on a barrel with a small port, enlarging the port 0.001" at a time until the gun outruns a usgi magazine. Then bring the gun back under control by adding heavier buffers successively.
It would be very interesting to note group size variances, if any, due to timing.
Thats odd, Centurion gas ports have always been on the larger side
0.069" for 14.5" Carbine and 0.080" for 16" Mid when I called them.
My only other CA barrel was a 16" midlength and it gaged at .076" when I had it.
How do you pin gauge something?
Not sure about others but I measure by finding the largest pin gage that can be pushed through the gas port using my fingers only. No tapping, hammers, etc. That's how I've done multiple barrels so far.
pointblank4445
08-19-18, 12:11
Thats odd, Centurion gas ports have always been on the larger side
0.069" for 14.5" Carbine and 0.080" for 16" Mid when I called them.
He's referring to the 12.5" I believe. I believe you are correct in those length configurations (and is also consistent with Default.mp3's chart). Pretty sure JWK mentioned his 14.5 recce middy was 0.079 as well in that thread.
Range report
I took my 11.5 ERGP barely out today. I took an atlas off my 5R that very loosely fit on the gun, sloppy as hell. Then proceeded to attempt groups. Mark shot our 77 grain load and did just over MOA, I took a 69 grain SMK batch and shot MOA. The gun was wobbly as hell and had a 8X scope with dots for aiming targets, much less than ideal and I shot MOA. Three shots were in one cluster. Mark has a pic to post.
Bottom line, these barrels have MOA potential. In the worst conditions I shot MOA and I know was not stable. Rest assured, accuracy is not going to prevent you from buying one of these barrels. They are gassed beautiffly and shoot. Just the facts ma'am. If you run cans all the time as I do, you should give these a hard look if your in the market.
Mark took a pic of the group if he can get it posted.
PB
Appreciate the follow up.
Regardless of the exact group size the flawless functioning is very appealing.
Appreciate the follow up.
Regardless of the exact group size the flawless functioning is very appealing.
Well Im glad its appreciated because we got our asses scalded today. It was so damn hot and HUMID I felt I needed to whine like a little b! But yes, function over group size is what this barrel is about.
PB
Well Im glad its appreciated because we got our asses scalded today. It was so damn hot and HUMID I felt I needed to whine like a little b! But yes, function over group size is what this barrel is about.
PB
It was only 112 F here today, so I spent the day loading for the early morning range trip. DS opens at 6 AM and I'm done by 9 AM usually, retreating to the A/C for the remainder of the day.
Well Im glad its appreciated because we got our asses scalded today. It was so damn hot and HUMID I felt I needed to whine like a little b! ...
PB
Come north a bit and we can compare our Sionics barrels in cooler temps! High of 58 here in WY today.
Update
We are going to drill more of these in the next few weeks for back stock. Ive reserved 3 for URG builds though. If you want one, call the shop and ask for Steve.
Thanks for the feedback PB. Hopefully Mark will post a target pic soon.
RobertTheTexan
08-20-18, 00:38
As many of you know, Sionics is now making a True suppressor ready barrel. Mark did a measurement of the port and it looks to be in the 062 range. I have two SBR's and ran them side by side. Both have A5 and LMT enhanced carriers.
PB
PB,
Are you running a standard LMT bolt or one of Sionics bolt completion kits in your LMT e-carriers?
Thx
RTT
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Here is the group of 69 gr SMKs Pappabear shot. Just at or slightly over MOA.
https://i.imgur.com/xfYstgH.jpg
Eurodriver
08-21-18, 06:38
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89708-Dedicated-Suppressed-SBR-*Does-not-function-Update-Page-4*&p=1133576#post1133576
Funny how times change.
JM2CW. If it were me, I would want my AR to function with or without a suppressor-regardless of what I was intending to do with it.
I would have the port opened up. Again, that's me.
I was doing this seven years ago with the exact same port size (+/- 0.001") and people were like :confused:
I found the moderately reduced felt recoil and mildly reduced gas blowback not worth the requirement of running suppressed 100% of the time for solid reliability.
RobertTheTexan
08-21-18, 07:45
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89708-Dedicated-Suppressed-SBR-*Does-not-function-Update-Page-4*&p=1133576#post1133576
Funny how times change.
I was doing this seven years ago with the exact same port size (+/- 0.001") and people were like :confused:
I found the moderately reduced felt recoil and mildly reduced gas blowback not worth the requirement of running suppressed 100% of the time for solid reliability.
Agreed. My requirements are pretty simple too. Shoot everything from crap to high end. 223 to 5.56. If my rifle does that then victory. If not, then it’s time to reassess and reconfigure. I’ve shot reduced gas port AR’a and yeah it’s nice, faster follow-on shots, but I prefer reliability over comfort. All day-every day. I learned a neat trick from a friend - a small bead of RTV on the charging handle mitigates a lot of the gas.
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We've choked down a bunch of guns and they still run mild ammo. The ERGP barrel is the first port that runs too lean for mild ammo.
Wanting your gun to run without a can is one thing. And that's fine... but having a 10.5-11.5 with an .080" port is ridiculous. The RGP runs beautifully un-suppressed with anything I've fed it.
Except that was a 10.3" and these are 11.5".
The 11.5" has more functional overlap between suppressed/un-suppressed.
To put it another way, the optimal port sizes suppressed/un-suppressed are closer together.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89708-Dedicated-Suppressed-SBR-*Does-not-function-Update-Page-4*&p=1133576#post1133576
Funny how times change.
I was doing this seven years ago with the exact same port size (+/- 0.001") and people were like :confused:
I found the moderately reduced felt recoil and mildly reduced gas blowback not worth the requirement of running suppressed 100% of the time for solid reliability.
Eurodriver
08-21-18, 10:22
We've choked down a bunch of guns and they still run mild ammo. The ERGP barrel is the first port that runs too lean for mild ammo.
Wanting your gun to run without a can is one thing. And that's fine... but having a 10.5-11.5 with an .080" port is ridiculous. The RGP runs beautifully un-suppressed with anything I've fed it.
I completely agree with that. Unfortunately too many people out there running PMC Bronze on unsuppressed rifles that manufacturers have to cater to them.
Except that was a 10.3" and these are 11.5".
The 11.5" has more functional overlap between suppressed/un-suppressed.
To put it another way, the optimal port sizes suppressed/un-suppressed are closer together.
Would the optimal port sizes suppressed/un-suppressed be even closer on a 12.5" barrel then ?
So for someone who wants it all, with *all* different pressure types of ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed, etc., it seems like an adjustable gasblock is still the best compromise to fine tune your rifle, assuming the barrel's gas port is large enough to begin with.
I completely agree with that. Unfortunately too many people out there running PMC Bronze on unsuppressed rifles that manufacturers have to cater to them.
Correct. Our Traditional RGP was designed for LE agencies running a mix of .223 ammo in which we cannot test all of it. We had to make sure it would cycle un-suppressed with .223 in the case that the gun did not have the can on. Our ERGP Barrels are a truly dedicated can on barrel. Yes, it may run with a certain load/buffer/spring but off the shelf will not unless you experiment.
A. The RGP will work with most ammo that is loaded to 5.56 pressure.
B. That is still my PERSONAL feeling. My PERSONAL feelings and what a company I associate myself with don't always have to agree on every aspect of business. I would still not recommend an ERGP barrel for LE use or for someone with one AR.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89708-Dedicated-Suppressed-SBR-*Does-not-function-Update-Page-4*&p=1133576#post1133576
Funny how times change.
I was doing this seven years ago with the exact same port size (+/- 0.001") and people were like :confused:
I found the moderately reduced felt recoil and mildly reduced gas blowback not worth the requirement of running suppressed 100% of the time for solid reliability.
I would still not recommend an ERGP barrel for LE use or for someone with one AR.
This makes a lot of sense. I have an 11.5" upper that's tuned to run 100% suppressed. It doesn't run unsuppressed. It's one of my primary uppers, but it's not my only upper.
What I'd like to know is why it took until 2018 for people to start doing this.
I get it, mainstream wanted the guns to "run on anything", but I've got a Daniel Defense with a 0.0735" port (16.1 middy) that runs on a damn 7oz A5 buffer with Sprinco Green spring on PMC Bronze. There is NO reason for this level of over-gassing.
Take barrel with 0.060 port.
Take H2 buffer and mil-spec spring.
Go to range.
Take drill press (as a company, I am sure you have a drill press and range somewhat near each other, I'd hope. I know KAC does.)
Mess with it until the gun, filthy as hell, will lock back on PMC Bronze with an H2 and mil-spec. Go in 0.001 increments.
Done. So simple. I wondered this for well over a decade, I just don't have the tools on hand, manufacturing capacity, etc. so I simply buy barrels from companies that have them properly tested, per above, except they use high speed video, full auto lowers, and track rate of fire using whatever ammo they decide on.
What I'd like to know is why it took until 2018 for people to start doing this.
We would have missed out on stuffing O-rings in our extractors. I remember my first SBR was so over-gassed, I just didn't shoot it. I assumed that was just how a Short AR ran.
We would have missed out on stuffing O-rings in our extractors. I remember my first SBR was so over-gassed, I just didn't shoot it. I assumed that was just how a Short AR ran.
This is the video that convinced me that every single barrel vs. gas length vs. function argument was pure bullshit propagated by lazy companies and people who refuse to do R&D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmZSFBy9CZ8
WTF? That's interesting.
It's just a function of "available gas" vs. "orifice correctly sized". Like I said, it's why I never understood the bullshit about it in this industry. The firearm industry has t o be the most slowly evolving I have ever seen. I mean, we got the M16 in what, the late 50's for the R&D prototypes? What do we have now? A different rail and shorter gas tube? Yet look at products like the Mustang GT. It has more than a few dozen parts. It's so worlds apart from a 1967 that it's not even funny. It didn't just get a longer hood and different fender material.
I think the industry is slowly figuring out what we need. My opinion is the RGP barrel is the perfect AR barrel, not reduced gas port. Just an ideally gassed 11.5. The ERGP barrel is a ideal for running suppressed. I will say again, the ERGP barrel didn't seem overly soft shooting. It felt like it was plenty hot, with a can. And I agree with whats been said, if you had only one AR or LE, the current RGP is ideal, not the E version. Reliability is priority number one. But I also think an over-gassed barrel presents it own set of problems.
Id love to know what my current Colt6945 port is, but not worth tearing apart. It runs my 10.3 barrel great. Some folks have had a some pretty darn good barrels for a while. Hopefully more and more industry will follow Sionics move.
PB
Rayrevolver
08-22-18, 17:51
What I'd like to know is why it took until 2018 for people to start doing this.
I get it, mainstream wanted the guns to "run on anything", but I've got a Daniel Defense with a 0.0735" port (16.1 middy) that runs on a damn 7oz A5 buffer with Sprinco Green spring on PMC Bronze. There is NO reason for this level of over-gassing.
Take barrel with 0.060 port.
Take H2 buffer and mil-spec spring.
Go to range.
Take drill press (as a company, I am sure you have a drill press and range somewhat near each other, I'd hope. I know KAC does.)
Mess with it until the gun, filthy as hell, will lock back on PMC Bronze with an H2 and mil-spec. Go in 0.001 increments.
Done. So simple. I wondered this for well over a decade, I just don't have the tools on hand, manufacturing capacity, etc. so I simply buy barrels from companies that have them properly tested, per above, except they use high speed video, full auto lowers, and track rate of fire using whatever ammo they decide on.
Devils advocate here: Doesn't it also depend on the barrel bore tolerance? A barrel at the larger end of the tolerance means what? More gas escaping and thus a bigger port required? And conversely, the tight bore barrel will require less gas to function?
So you own a company that sells complete uppers, do you tighten the bore tolerance to a tiny number so your cost goes up (more rejects, new tools more often)? Or accept a reasonable tolerance and use a bigger port to account for tight bores and dirty rifles running cheap steel cased?
Devils advocate here: Doesn't it also depend on the barrel bore tolerance? A barrel at the larger end of the tolerance means what? More gas escaping and thus a bigger port required? And conversely, the tight bore barrel will require less gas to function?
So you own a company that sells complete uppers, do you tighten the bore tolerance to a tiny number so your cost goes up (more rejects, new tools more often)? Or accept a reasonable tolerance and use a bigger port to account for tight bores and dirty rifles running cheap steel cased?
We've choked down a variety of 11.5s. And to your point, they are each their own animal with their own recoil impulse. (we shot them back to back during the same range trip one day) But all of them ran correctly with some form of reduced gas port.
So in my opinion gassing an 11.5, for example, over .075" is never acceptable.
Devils advocate here: Doesn't it also depend on the barrel bore tolerance? A barrel at the larger end of the tolerance means what? More gas escaping and thus a bigger port required? And conversely, the tight bore barrel will require less gas to function?
So you own a company that sells complete uppers, do you tighten the bore tolerance to a tiny number so your cost goes up (more rejects, new tools more often)? Or accept a reasonable tolerance and use a bigger port to account for tight bores and dirty rifles running cheap steel cased?
This is correct, but I'd hope a company could use their own barrels to do the testing, and I'd hope that other companies did their OWN testing instead of just pin-gauging a competitor's barrel without worrying about rifling profile and bore ID and taper. I mean, how lazy and weak can you get?
This is the video that convinced me that every single barrel vs. gas length vs. function argument was pure bullshit propagated by lazy companies and people who refuse to do R&D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmZSFBy9CZ8
So what size is the gas port? M4C demands it lol
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Yes, port sizes are closer on a 12.5" and almost identical on a 16" carbine.
But there are other timing factors in play and a 16" carbine is not optimal.
Would the optimal port sizes suppressed/un-suppressed be even closer on a 12.5" barrel then ?
So for someone who wants it all, with *all* different pressure types of ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed, etc., it seems like an adjustable gasblock is still the best compromise to fine tune your rifle, assuming the barrel's gas port is large enough to begin with.
Absolutely.
If a batch of blanks varies in bore diameter,
it's up to the barrel maker to adjust the gas port for a consistent gas drive, compensating for manufacturing variations.
Tuning for very weak vs mil-spec ammo is a completely different matter.
Devils advocate here: Doesn't it also depend on the barrel bore tolerance? A barrel at the larger end of the tolerance means what? More gas escaping and thus a bigger port required? And conversely, the tight bore barrel will require less gas to function?
So you own a company that sells complete uppers, do you tighten the bore tolerance to a tiny number so your cost goes up (more rejects, new tools more often)? Or accept a reasonable tolerance and use a bigger port to account for tight bores and dirty rifles running cheap steel cased?
What I'd like to know is why it took until 2018 for people to start doing this.
I get it, mainstream wanted the guns to "run on anything", but I've got a Daniel Defense with a 0.0735" port (16.1 middy) that runs on a damn 7oz A5 buffer with Sprinco Green spring on PMC Bronze. There is NO reason for this level of over-gassing.
Take barrel with 0.060 port.
Take H2 buffer and mil-spec spring.
Go to range.
Take drill press (as a company, I am sure you have a drill press and range somewhat near each other, I'd hope. I know KAC does.)
Mess with it until the gun, filthy as hell, will lock back on PMC Bronze with an H2 and mil-spec. Go in 0.001 increments.
Done. So simple. I wondered this for well over a decade, I just don't have the tools on hand, manufacturing capacity, etc. so I simply buy barrels from companies that have them properly tested, per above, except they use high speed video, full auto lowers, and track rate of fire using whatever ammo they decide on.
Grant played with gas port diameters in an SBR years ago and even started a thread about his findings. I've been running an adjustable gas block since the summer of 2014, on recommendation from CoryCop25. The FAL guys have been tuning their gas systems at least since the 90s. When I joined the FALFiles in 2001, they were talking about how to adjust the gas system for best reliability and softest recoil. As far back as I can remember, IG has used colorful metaphors to describe over large gas ports.
However, the AR guys got side tracked playing with buffer weights and spring rates because the economy brand ARs use carbine weight buffers. The problem was made worse because the expert advice was to avoid adjustable gas blocks like the plague. I don't think very many have had the chance to tune an AR with an adjustable gas port. The experience is a real eye opener.
What everyone here seems to be overlooking is environmental conditions, how is that RGP going to work at -60 below, and I don't need to hear "I will never have to shoot that cold" because it doesn't matter if you can't say no one will ever have to. What about that FBI agent sent to the North Slope in the middle of winter, are the Alaska State Police buying these barrels? M16 gas ports were sized for absolute worst possible conditions, and now you people are saying Eugene and the military got it wrong because your sample of one works perfectly at 70 degrees. I think I will start calling these boutique guns, this pursuit of the smallest possible gas port that is only going to operate under a reduced range of conditions makes little sense to me but hey YMMV and this is still 'Merica at least for a while.
What everyone here seems to be overlooking is environmental conditions, how is that RGP going to work at -60 below, and I don't need to hear "I will never have to shoot that cold" because it doesn't matter if you can't say no one will ever have to. What about that FBI agent sent to the North Slope in the middle of winter, are the Alaska State Police buying these barrels? M16 gas ports were sized for absolute worst possible conditions, and now you people are saying Eugene and the military got it wrong because your sample of one works perfectly at 70 degrees. I think I will start calling these boutique guns, this pursuit of the smallest possible gas port that is only going to operate under a reduced range of conditions makes little sense to me but hey YMMV and this is still 'Merica at least for a while.
The RGP barrels have a gas port diameter that is similar/identical to the Mk18 with additional dwell time. If a Mk18 works on the North Slope, so should an RGP.
The RGP barrels have a gas port diameter that is similar/identical to the Mk18 with additional dwell time. If a Mk18 works on the North Slope, so should an RGP.
Exactly. Although it's named "Reduced Gas Barrel", It's really a correctly gassed barrel.
and now you people are saying Eugene and the military got it wrong because your sample of one works perfectly at 70 degrees.
Not at all. Stoner's rifle design is fine. It's the retarded imbeciles in the private sector who can't break away from an .080" port on 10.5-11.5 barrels.
Eurodriver
08-23-18, 10:50
What I'd like to know is why it took until 2018 for people to start doing this.
I get it, mainstream wanted the guns to "run on anything", but I've got a Daniel Defense with a 0.0735" port (16.1 middy) that runs on a damn 7oz A5 buffer with Sprinco Green spring on PMC Bronze. There is NO reason for this level of over-gassing.
Take barrel with 0.060 port.
Take H2 buffer and mil-spec spring.
Go to range.
Take drill press (as a company, I am sure you have a drill press and range somewhat near each other, I'd hope. I know KAC does.)
Mess with it until the gun, filthy as hell, will lock back on PMC Bronze with an H2 and mil-spec. Go in 0.001 increments.
Done. So simple. I wondered this for well over a decade, I just don't have the tools on hand, manufacturing capacity, etc. so I simply buy barrels from companies that have them properly tested, per above, except they use high speed video, full auto lowers, and track rate of fire using whatever ammo they decide on.
I did this in 2011. I linked the thread. Grant did it before that and before him was RetreatHell. It isn’t new.
It just wasn’t popular because suppressors weren’t popular back then. “Why do you NEEEEED a silencer?” Blah blah.
Everyone got Instagram and realized they make for cool pics. Plus states started making it legal to hunt with them.
People slowly realized overgassed ARs suck.
I did this in 2011. I linked the thread. Grant did it before that and before him was RetreatHell. It isn’t new.
True. But I think he means the nitwits who manufacture ARs... not custom one offs. Colt & BCM have always been gassed reasonably. Most of the rest are Jenna Jamison to paraphrase Iraqgunz.
True. But I think he means the nitwits who manufacture ARs... not custom one offs. Colt & BCM have always been gassed reasonably. Most of the rest are Jenna Jamison to paraphrase Iraqgunz.
This is exactly correct as to my intended meaning.
Is anyone running a Geissele gas block with these? Do the pre-dimpled barrels fit the block well without redrilling?
The RGP barrels have a gas port diameter that is similar/identical to the Mk18 with additional dwell time. If a Mk18 works on the North Slope, so should an RGP.
Did the MK18 go through the full environmental testing regime, I am not aware that it did, the MK18 is a limited procurement SOCOM weapon not a general issue item. Really curious as to what has been subjected to the full testing, last I heard of was the URG-1.
Did the MK18 go through the full environmental testing regime, I am not aware that it did, the MK18 is a limited procurement SOCOM weapon not a general issue item. Really curious as to what has been subjected to the full testing, last I heard of was the URG-1.
I'm not aware of full testing data but was operating under the assumption that Crane would have taken temperature extremes into account when determining the final gas port diameter for the barrels.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-24-18, 13:55
I made a similar setup to this with a 6920 Barrel chopped to 11". It very barely runs unsuppressed, but runs very smoothly with a can. Wish this was an option when I was making my suppressed only build.
Luckily for users now there are at least 3 clued in companies offering solutions for this increasingly widespread "epidemic" of suppressor use.
I made a similar setup to this with a 6920 Barrel chopped to 11". It very barely runs unsuppressed, but runs very smoothly with a can. Wish this was an option when I was making my suppressed only build.
Luckily for users now there are at least 3 clued in companies offering solutions for this increasingly widespread "epidemic" of suppressor use.
BRT, Sionics, and who else? AndroCorp, perhaps?
Furbyballer
08-26-18, 16:34
Hodge
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MountainRaven
12-17-18, 22:10
This is going to sound silly:
Has anyone tried these barrels with a standard carbine (non-H/H2/H3) buffer weight and no can?
We did not because it offers nothing. We did a wide range of testing with various standard buffers and the A5.
This is going to sound silly:
Has anyone tried these barrels with a standard carbine (non-H/H2/H3) buffer weight and no can?
MountainRaven
12-17-18, 22:47
I probably don't know enough to know what I don't know, but...
If I wanted something to run with decent brass-cased 223 and 5.56, no steel case, and no can... I'm guessing I won't be able to get an ERGP to run reliably and I should just wait for the regular RGP barrels to be available again?
titsonritz
12-17-18, 23:49
This is going to sound silly:
Has anyone tried these barrels with a standard carbine (non-H/H2/H3) buffer weight and no can?
Why give that turd the time of day?
I am pretty sure we tell people (or it's on the website) that an ERGP will not run without a suppressor. It was made specifically in mind for those who are going to be shooting suppressed.
The RGP barrels should be available very soon. What's on the website is simply a precaution for those who want to call every 48 hours.
I probably don't know enough to know what I don't know, but...
If I wanted something to run with decent brass-cased 223 and 5.56, no steel case, and no can... I'm guessing I won't be able to get an ERGP to run reliably and I should just wait for the regular RGP barrels to be available again?
MountainRaven
12-18-18, 00:14
I am pretty sure we tell people (or it's on the website) that an ERGP will not run without a suppressor. It was made specifically in mind for those who are going to be shooting suppressed.
The RGP barrels should be available very soon. What's on the website is simply a precaution for those who want to call every 48 hours.
Roger that, boss.
Why give that turd the time of day?
Well the turd, for one, appreciates the effort.
ETA: If you're referring to the question I posed, rather than to me, the person, allow me to explain:
We band-aid overgassed guns by increasing the functional mass of the bolt carrier, do we not? Would it not, then, make sense to "band-aid" an "undergassed" gun by reducing the functional mass of the bolt carrier? Therefore running a standard three-steel, zero-tungsten weight carbine buffer weight, instead of an H or H2.
titsonritz
12-18-18, 20:06
Roger that, boss.
Well the turd, for one, appreciates the effort.
ETA: If you're referring to the question I posed, rather than to me, the person, allow me to explain:
We band-aid overgassed guns by increasing the functional mass of the bolt carrier, do we not? Would it not, then, make sense to "band-aid" an "undergassed" gun by reducing the functional mass of the bolt carrier? Therefore running a standard three-steel, zero-tungsten weight carbine buffer weight, instead of an H or H2.
LOL, I was referring to the standard carbine buffer, sorry for the confusion.
stxbordergun
12-23-18, 21:04
I probably don't know enough to know what I don't know, but...
If I wanted something to run with decent brass-cased 223 and 5.56, no steel case, and no can... I'm guessing I won't be able to get an ERGP to run reliably and I should just wait for the regular RGP barrels to be available again?
I just built mine and it runs unsuppressed with a JP Full Mass carrier and H2 Silent Captured Spring. With the ASR muzzle brake it shoots ridiculously soft. The can speeds up the carrier velocity and brings it right into the sweet spot (subjectively).
I find the normal Sionics 11.5” barrel pleasant to shoot unsuppressed with the h2 buffer. Not sure how it does with a suppressor since I don’t own one yet.
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Well Papabear...
It is because of you, this thread, MarkM, and IG that I just ordered an Extreme Reduced Gas Port complete upper from Sionics.
I intend to put a direct thread GemTech Trek-T can on it as a dedicated suppressed upper.
Can’t wait to get it and shoot it. Thanks for the good intel.
As many of you know, Sionics is now making a True suppressor ready barrel. Mark did a measurement of the port and it looks to be in the 062 range. I have two SBR's and ran them side by side. Both have A5 and LMT enhanced carriers. Both have Vltor monolithic uppers and AAC M4-2K cans. The first runs with the original 11.5 RGP barrel by Sionics, it runs very well and throws the brass slightly forward in the 2-2:30 range. A little hot as one would expect with the AAC can and all. Runs 100% flawless, no complaints.
Gun two with ERGP Sionics barrel and it ran as would be expected, a little smoother. Tossing brass in the 3-3:30 range and a bit softer. I was most impressed with this barrel. It is not supposed to run ammo without a can but we were able to run Blackhills and "Mark-hills" loads getting lock-back some of the time but not all the time. Also, the gun was cleaned and freshly greased. Which tells me this barrel is ported perfectly to run a can. I don't want a barrel that runs so soft it becomes unreliable at anytime under any condition. I was a bit worried it would shoot great at the expense of reliability, not going to be the case.
If you are going too run your SBR suppressed, and you want a 11.5 barrel, this is one great option. I honestly wished my other 11.5 was the newer barrel. I don't think I would call it Extreme RGP barrel, I would call it the perfect GP barrel. Its ideal not extreme.
We were busy running a new load of 178 ELD's for the LMT MWS, so we didn't give it as much time as we will next week, running more types of ammo and maybe some lowers without A5 and enhanced carriers. More data to follow, and any request let us know. Also, we will do some accuracy testing for shits and giggles. Even thought I think 2 to 3 MOA is fine for a 11.5 SBR, I always like better.
Again, more data to follow.
PB
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IG, PB, Markm,
The complete Sionics ERGP upper I ordered will be here tomorrow.
I will not be running an A5 system, just a standard carbine RE setup.
I do have several H, H2 and H3 buffers and a blue Sprinco spring available.
Can you suggest a good combo for a starting point with this upper and a Gemtech Trek T can?
Thanks for the help.
I am pretty sure we tell people (or it's on the website) that an ERGP will not run without a suppressor. It was made specifically in mind for those who are going to be shooting suppressed.
The RGP barrels should be available very soon. What's on the website is simply a precaution for those who want to call every 48 hours.
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I believe it still runs with an H in that configuration.
IG, PB, Markm,
The complete Sionics ERGP upper I ordered will be here tomorrow.
I will not be running an A5 system, just a standard carbine RE setup.
I do have several H, H2 and H3 buffers and a blue Sprinco spring available.
Can you suggest a good combo for a starting point with this upper and a Gemtech Trek T can?
Thanks for the help.
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Based on our sample of one... WITH the can on, I'd start with H2 because it's supposed to be the closest to the A5/Rifle. H should work great too, H3 might be a tad heavy. Each set up is its own animal though.
It really depends what you want to run. I’d try an H2 then go down if needed. I think it will run with anything just what recoil impulse makes a brother happy.
You will like it.
Thanks gents.
Standard spring, no Sprinco blue? I’m sure I’ll experiment at some point.
I’m sure I’ll like it. This is the suppressed solution I’ve been seeking for quite sometime now.
It really depends what you want to run. I’d try an H2 then go down if needed. I think it will run with anything just what recoil impulse makes a brother happy.
You will like it.
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Received the upper today. I was able to clean, inspect, and get out ton shoot about 75 rounds.
Very happy with the product. Immediately out of the box you can tell it’s quality. The V3 Mlok rail is very nice.
BCG is a BCM FDE IonBond I had as an extra.
CH is a BCM GF Mod 4
Optic: Aimpoint Pro
Can: GemTech Trek T
Lower: Colt M4 (complete lower from Brownells)
Put in an H2 with a standard carbine spring. Temperature was about 28 degrees. Ammo was a mix of Federal XM193, Wolf Gold and Magtech 62 gr FMJ.
Shot awesome. Nice soft, recoil impulse. Brass ejected about 6 ft. Between 2:45 and 3:15. Once it warmed up, consistently at 3:15.
Didn’t try to shoot for accuracy, only quick zero at 50 yds with Pro and BUIS. Decent groups.
Look forward to more time with this. Might look at a Radian Raptor SD charging handle for the gas. Anybody have one? Do they work?
Based on our sample of one... WITH the can on, I'd start with H2 because it's supposed to be the closest to the A5/Rifle. H should work great too, H3 might be a tad heavy. Each set up is its own animal though.
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stxbordergun
01-04-19, 22:10
Running two different configurations with mine. Thing runs great. Need to shoot it at 100 and beyond now.
Basic overview and some test firing:
https://youtu.be/USKt2byOuFc
Running two different configurations with mine. Thing runs great. Need to shoot it at 100 and beyond now.
Basic overview and some test firing:
https://youtu.be/USKt2byOuFc
I’m surprised it runs .223 unsuppressed.
This is the ERGP, not the RGP?
stxbordergun
01-04-19, 23:11
I’m surprised it runs .223 unsuppressed.
This is the ERGP, not the RGP?
ERGP.
I dont know how long it would stay reliable unsuppressed with the full weight carrier/H2. Although it was plenty lubed the cycling already felt sluggish from the low gas drive. Ill bet it wont lock back on steel cased ammo.
The low gas drive is also why I decided to experiment with a light buffer and light weight carrier. That config shot so amazingly soft. Also figure in the muzzle brake too.
Thanks for posting that up.
Running two different configurations with mine. Thing runs great. Need to shoot it at 100 and beyond now.
Basic overview and some test firing:
https://youtu.be/USKt2byOuFc
I didn’t try to shoot my ERGP upper unsuppressed yesterday as my intent is to leave the can on all the time.
I’m going to try to hit the range again this afternoon and I’ll try it.
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Received the upper today. I was able to clean, inspect, and get out ton shoot about 75 rounds.
Very happy with the product. Immediately out of the box you can tell it’s quality. The V3 Mlok rail is very nice.
No doubt. When Pappabear showed me his, I had to get one too.
Put in an H2 with a standard carbine spring. Temperature was about 28 degrees. Ammo was a mix of Federal XM193, Wolf Gold and Magtech 62 gr FMJ.
Shot awesome. Nice soft, recoil impulse. Brass ejected about 6 ft. Between 2:45 and 3:15. Once it warmed up, consistently at 3:15.
You'll never be able to put up with an over-gassed SBR again.
More range time today.
First order of business was to try it without the can.
It cycled with both Wolf Gold and MagTech 62 gr FMJ. I could feel the BCG had barely enough momentum to cycle but it did. Brass “fluttered” out about 4 ft and 4 o’clock.
Considering the cold temperature (about 30 degrees) and the H2, I think this is just about right.
Shot about another 100 rounds without a hiccup.
The ONLY disappointing thing is, oddly, the limited rotation QD sockets ( 3 and 9 o’clock) on the rail don’t work. I’m not crazy. It’s like they didn’t get back bored enough vs rail thickness. I didn’t use a sling yesterday but did today. I thought the front was locked in and when I took about five steps the swivel popped out and I barely caught the gun before it hit the ground. It’s a Vickers BFG sling. Came home and tried several other rail QD sockets on other rails. Locked in fine. Other swivels would not lock on the V3.
I may or may not contact Sionics about it. I usually don’t use the QD sockets on the receiver end of the rail. I like them more forward. But it is convenient to have them. May just buy a Magpul mlok QD mount and call it good.
Most important is the thing runs great.
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Please do contact us. It's the only way an issue can get fixed.
More range time today.
First order of business was to try it without the can.
It cycled with both Wolf Gold and MagTech 62 gr FMJ. I could feel the BCG had barely enough momentum to cycle but it did. Brass “fluttered” out about 4 ft and 4 o’clock.
Considering the cold temperature (about 30 degrees) and the H2, I think this is just about right.
Shot about another 100 rounds without a hiccup.
The ONLY disappointing thing is, oddly, the limited rotation QD sockets ( 3 and 9 o’clock) on the rail don’t work. I’m not crazy. It’s like they didn’t get back bored enough vs rail thickness. I didn’t use a sling yesterday but did today. I thought the front was locked in and when I took about five steps the swivel popped out and I barely caught the gun before it hit the ground. It’s a Vickers BFG sling. Came home and tried several other rail QD sockets on other rails. Locked in fine. Other swivels would not lock on the V3.
I may or may not contact Sionics about it. I usually don’t use the QD sockets on the receiver end of the rail. I like them more forward. But it is convenient to have them. May just buy a Magpul mlok QD mount and call it good.
Most important is the thing runs great.
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gunnerblue
01-06-19, 08:30
I’m surprised it runs .223 unsuppressed.
This is the ERGP, not the RGP?
My ERGP barrel will cycle with Federal XM223SP1, rifle spring and A5H2 buffer but will not always lock back on empty. Still very soft shooting, but surprised me as well.
IG,
Understand. Have zero concerns that Sionics will take care of me.
Proof of this for those interested, Sionics saw my post here and reached out to me directly via email this weekend. It was quite the simple fix. The anodizing was a little thick inside the socket and a little elbow grease rotating the swivel for several minutes seemed to do the trick. Admittedly I feel stupid not figuring this out on my own, but now I know, so lessen learned. They did say this was only the second time this has happened.
To top it off, I got a follow up phone call from them today as well. Basically making sure I’m happy with the fix. I’m going to play around with it and if I have any issues again, they will exchange the rail.
As I told the Sionics representative, things happen and to me, this issue is pretty insignificant but they feel very strongly that all of their products are delivered with the highest quality and the customer is happy.
Really above and beyond service. This was my first Sionics product and I can tell you it will not be my last.
Please do contact us. It's the only way an issue can get fixed.
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So, question for those of you with more experience than myself in this area... I'm the type of guy with few guns and no safe queens; I shoot enough to wear out parts and know how dirty my rig is just by how it feels, but don't have a collection of guns and parts to compare different setups side by side, nor have I ever really experimented with gas port sizes, buffer weights, recoil systems and so on.
I've been running an 11.5" BCM mini recce with a Sandman-K (5.56 front cap) and a Geissle Super 42 (H3 config) for the last year and a half. It has been utterly reliable and very accurate. I get little to no excess gas to the face and I'm quite happy with it overall. However, since I run suppressed full time anyways, I'm curious if you all think I might see a significant enough improvement switching from my current setup to, say, an ERGP barrel and A5H2, to justify the expense? I don't have a ton of disposable income to throw around fixing what isn't broken, but I would absolutely upgrade if the juice is worth the squeeze.
{It has been utterly reliable and very accurate. I get little to no excess gas to the face }
IMHO, it might be hard to improve much over what you now have. Sure, you can reduce the recoil some, but if you shoot cheap low powered ammo it will put you closer to the edge of reliability, especially when your rifle is real dirty, or there is not much lube present or you are shooting in really cold weather.
Your call, just remember, reliability trumps all.
{It has been utterly reliable and very accurate. I get little to no excess gas to the face }
IMHO, it might be hard to improve much over what you now have. Sure, you can reduce the recoil some, but if you shoot cheap low powered ammo it will put you closer to the edge of reliability, especially when your rifle is real dirty, or there is not much lube present or you are shooting in really cold weather.
Your call, just remember, reliability trumps all.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. When I thought about it later, my question was probably pointless since I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the tangible benefits would be night-and-day difference or subtle refinement, and no one could possibly answer that with certainty because there's too many variables and subjectivity at play. Of course the idea of a smoother running, softer recoiling rifle that's gentler on components long-term is very appealing, but as it stands I will just run my BCM until I start to wear it out and start from scratch at that point.
Update - Range Report
Went out again today with the Sionics ERGP upper and for fun decided to shoot for accuracy. About 100 rounds today, zero malfunctions.
Shot several 5 and 10 shots groups
100 yds
Ammo was MagTech 62 gr FMJ, Wolf Gold 55 gr, and IMI 77 gr Razor OTM
Aimpoint Pro
ALG ACT Trigger
46 year old eyes
Temp was about 28 degrees
Also paired the H2 with a Sprinco blue spring. Would cycle without the can but not lock back. Going to keep this combo.
Best 10 shot group was with the 77 gr Razor just under 1.75 MOA (1 11/16 inch spread)
Another 5 shot group with the MagTech 62 gr just over 1.5 MOA (1 5/8 inch spread)
Very pleased. That’s with old eyes, a 1x red dot, and so so trigger...
The pics turned 90 degrees counter clockwise for some reason but the 10 shot group had 7 of the 10 in the bull or right on vertical axis a tad low - kind of hard to see.
55471
55470
55472
55473
Pomyc-impressive shooting! Thank you for sharing.
Update - Range Report
Went out again today with the Sionics ERGP upper and for fun decided to shoot for accuracy. About 100 rounds today, zero malfunctions.
Shot several 5 and 10 shots groups
100 yds
Ammo was MagTech 62 gr FMJ, Wolf Gold 55 gr, and IMI 77 gr Razor OTM
Aimpoint Pro
ALG ACT Trigger
46 year old eyes
Temp was about 28 degrees
Also paired the H2 with a Sprinco blue spring. Would cycle without the can but not lock back. Going to keep this combo.
Best 10 shot group was with the 77 gr Razor just under 1.75 MOA (1 11/16 inch spread)
Another 5 shot group with the MagTech 62 gr just over 1.5 MOA (1 5/8 inch spread)
Very pleased. That’s with old eyes, a 1x red dot, and so so trigger...
The pics turned 90 degrees counter clockwise for some reason but the 10 shot group had 7 of the 10 in the bull or right on vertical axis a tad low - kind of hard to see.
55471
55470
55472
55473
Thats pretty good for 1X, I bet with right optic this would be MOA with the good stuff all day long. well done.
PB
Thats pretty good for 1X, I bet with right optic this would be MOA with the good stuff all day long. well done.
PB
To be honest, I've not shot a Sionics barrel yet that wasn't great in the accuracy department. I've had my hand on 8 different barrels so far, and each one has done well. Five of their 18" barrels (both "Gen 1" and "Gen 2"), one Med-Con 16" mid-length, and two LW 16" mid-lengths. Really a great time to be a consumer with all the great choices we have these days.
EDIT: For clarification, I do not own all 8 previously mentioned barrels. Many of my buddies went from one factory rifle to building a couple rifles a year or so after I did, and we ended up with similar builds. Sionics, BRT, and Colt are the usual culprits among us, with Colt usually being the factory gun. There's a BCM, S&W, and DPMS in the mix somewhere...
To be honest, I've not shot a Sionics barrel yet that wasn't great in the accuracy department. I've had my hand on 8 different barrels so far, and each one has done well. Five of their 18" barrels (both "Gen 1" and "Gen 2"), one Med-Con 16" mid-length, and two LW 16" mid-lengths. Really a great time to be a consumer with all the great choices we have these days.
Man that is the truth. You can go buy a $390 bolt gun with MOA Guarntee. It’s just nuts how good mfg has gotten with firearms.
PB
stxbordergun
01-14-19, 19:20
Close to 400 rounds now and gun just flat out runs. Havent cleaned it, just keep dumping Lucas gun oil in there. Have been running mostly suppressed with the heavy buffer and full mass carrier.
Ive got a carbine match later this month so today after ~100 rounds, I switched the gun to "gamer" configuration with the low mass carrier and carbine buffer.
Not big on (or that great at) shooting groups but shot the gun at 100 today with good results:
https://youtu.be/JNkM2SK-Oqs
everready73
01-15-19, 09:20
Nice shooting. I am now convinced i need one of the RGP barrels. I dont currently use suppressors and feel that is still a good option with the .070 port size. Now to decide on a pistol build or just send in for a form 1 stamp. I have heard they have been pretty quick lately
I have heard they have been pretty quick lately
lol, not with the .gov shutdown.
everready73
01-15-19, 10:59
Yes, when that is over obviously. We will see I think it will end soon.
Nice shooting. I am now convinced i need one of the RGP barrels. I dont currently use suppressors and feel that is still a good option with the .070 port size. Now to decide on a pistol build or just send in for a form 1 stamp. I have heard they have been pretty quick lately
I have been eagerly awaiting my RGP barrel for about 7 weeks. Threads like this one have been building the hype and making it difficult to be patient though.
Yes, when that is over obviously. We will see I think it will end soon.
I think even when it's over, the backlog accumulated during the shutdown will more than offset any perceived decrease in wait times unfortunately. I would still go ahead and do it, just not counting on a speedy process.
stxbordergun
01-15-19, 16:15
Nice shooting. I am now convinced i need one of the RGP barrels. I dont currently use suppressors and feel that is still a good option with the .070 port size. Now to decide on a pistol build or just send in for a form 1 stamp. I have heard they have been pretty quick lately
An RGP with a full mass carrier and H2 buffer would be a sweet unsuppressed setup.
everready73
01-15-19, 16:50
An RGP with a full mass carrier and H2 buffer would be a sweet unsuppressed setup.
Agree. That is exactly what I was thinking
stxbordergun
01-23-19, 10:21
Ran my ERGP upper on an M4 lower. Runs pretty damn smooth. BCM bcg.
https://youtu.be/bTLWJ8UQEYU
stxbordergun
01-23-19, 10:22
https://youtu.be/22IOO1h8rOg
stxbordergun
01-23-19, 10:24
https://youtu.be/pwL-2GBRPXU
What can are you running?
Ran my ERGP upper on an M4 lower. Runs pretty damn smooth. BCM bcg.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stxbordergun
01-24-19, 10:42
What can are you running?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thats a Saker 762...I would like a Saker 556K for this 11.5 though.
Thats a Saker 762...I would like a Saker 556K for this 11.5 though.
Why? Because of size? I like over-bored cans for a few reasons.
stxbordergun
01-24-19, 17:39
Why? Because of size? I like over-bored cans for a few reasons.
Yeah the 762 can works great and I leave the 762 end cap on it all the time. Size and weight are my only reasons for wanting the K model.
Is this the same 0.062 port barrel? Or is this a completely different line than the ERGP barrels sold today/much smaller port?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99oJqiBYrTw
Yes, The original RGP was meant for optimal suppressed use but could cycle un-suppresed if needed at the request of Peoria PD for worst case scenarios. We have now publically released a true suppressor only barrel. It may lock back with certain loads but by all means is not meant to EVER be run without a can,
Sorry to resurrect the dead... But, Steve O, do you have any idea what the 11.5 ERGP port size is nowadays? I picked up an AR pistol locally for a "I can't say no" price, and it will be getting a dedicated suppressor when it's released from jail, but I'm wondering how conservative the gas port is. Any help will be much appreciated.
DefenderAO
02-10-24, 21:52
Does anyone know the difference between the suppressor dedicated bbl GP size and the ERGP size? From what I read the ERGP is roughly .062"
Does anyone know the difference between the suppressor dedicated bbl GP size and the ERGP size? From what I read the ERGP is roughly .062"
I've found this to be a useful resource...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXunBDX5Gaz87BqxwNxDUlWNK9nEv-cZEQoLq2JXXrk/edit#gid=766121382
-Rainman
DefenderAO
02-11-24, 10:36
I've found this to be a useful resource...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tXunBDX5Gaz87BqxwNxDUlWNK9nEv-cZEQoLq2JXXrk/edit#gid=766121382
-Rainman
Yes, I have it bookmarked. Would be interested to have the suppressor only entry. Sionics will not disclose GP sizes.
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