View Full Version : AR 15 pistol questions
I am, for the first time, seriously considering swaping my 16" AR15 carbine for an 11.5" AR15 pistol, however I am still unsure of a couple of BATFE / NFA issues. I've tried finding definitive answers both here and on-line, but I'm still confused. I have read the initial "redesign" letter of 2012, and the revised clarification latter of 2017 (I believe this is the date), but if a letter can change the law, that doesn't give me much confidence in future clarification letters from future administrations.
While the future is always in flux, I want this project to be 200% legal today. Any doubt or gray area and I abort.
Specifically...
1) Can a person legally shoulder a brace-equipped AR15 pistol? Not incidental use, not accidental use, not once in a blue moon use, but whenever the mood strikes?
2) If yes to the above, are there specific braces that would allow this, and are there specific braces that would not allow this?
3) If no to the above, how is it that so many are so sure it's all good to go?
4) Can I place a 16" upper (taken off a carbine) onto a pistol lower?
5) If #4 is a yes, can I have my 11.5" AR15 pistol upper that I have removed from the pistol lower in the same house as a carbine lower if they remain un-attached (I know I cannot mount the pistol upper on the carbine lower without first obtaining all the NFA SBR paperwork).
1) Can a person legally shoulder a brace-equipped AR15 pistol? Not incidental use, not accidental use, not once in a blue moon use, but whenever the mood strikes? For now the answer: Yes, but you need to pay attention still to OAL of said pistol. But as BATFE has done before, this too can change at any time !
4) Can I place a 16" upper (taken off a carbine) onto a pistol lower? Yes. As for the 11.5" upper, since you have a pistol lower in the same house, it's a non-issue.
Eurodriver
08-14-18, 04:41
Am I the only mother****er who goes on the internet and doesn’t give a **** what’s legal and what isn’t when I am shooting a gun on my own land?
Just wondering.
Am I the only mother****er who goes on the internet and doesn’t give a **** what’s legal and what isn’t when I am shooting a gun on my own land?
Just wondering.
You’re my favorite person on M4C
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Am I the only mother****er who goes on the internet and doesn’t give a **** what’s legal and what isn’t when I am shooting a gun on my own land?
Just wondering.
You are definitely outnumbered by the worriers.
You are definitely outnumbered by the worriers.
A sad state of affairs to be certain which is unfortunate.
The Fed is not some omnipotent all knowing entity looking at crystal ball
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If you read the law you will see the word intent mentioned .If you build a pistol to use and don't intend to use it as a rifle and occasionally or accidentally let it go back to your shoulder it's ok but if you build to use as a SBR and post the intention on a public forum you are setting yourself up for a " he intended " case and given the Feds ammo to use to change the ruling . I personally INTEND to keep mine on my arm or use it on my cheek a inch or so from my shoulder and I am happy it is ok if it accidentally touches my shoulder .
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Disregard my previous post
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180814/7dfed9b4466ef3cb000e89b53a59211d.jpg
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Eurodriver
08-14-18, 08:43
I’m so glad no one on this forum does 66 in a 65.
I am sorry if my desire to stay legal offend the sensibilities of some here. There are many laws with which I disagree, but I still try and follow them. If I purchase an AR pistol, it would be for home use (on my land), but also for public range use, car travel and formal training.
I do not want an SBR under today's regulations as I frequently travel by car into other states, and that's a headache I don't want. Too many ways to get tripped up.
Taking my carbine with me in my car requires it be unloaded. If I needed it, I realize it doesn't take long to pop in a magazine, and I have a discrete carry bag for transport into and out of my car, so an AR pistol is not really a necessity. It just makes things easier and a bit faster.
As for "intentional" vs "unintentional" or "incidental" shouldering, I don't intend to shoulder it. I don't intend to ever use it other than at the range in a training environment, but the day may come when I do need it for self defense, and then it may get used one handed with my arm out straight, it may get used as an impact weapon, it may get used with the brace wrapped around my forearm, or it may get used with the brace making contact with my shoulder. I won't know until after the fact.
How will the authorities find out how I used it? I would tell them.
I may end up needing my AR pistol at a place with cameras or witnesses. Even if there are no cameras or witnesses, I would not lie to the authorities. As Mas Ayoob taught us in LFI - never lie to the authorities. They will find out the truth. If you acted in good faith, you gain nothing by trying to cover anything up or embellishing. You are your own best witness. Credibility, once lost, is not easily recovered.
If a brace equipped AR pistol is OK to use in any way, provided the brace is an approved model and is not physically modified, then an AR pistol may be a sound and valid option for me.
If letting the brace contact my shoulder (intentionally, unintentionally, incidentally, or whatever) may cause me extra headache and potentially cause legal problems, than perhaps an AR pistol is not what I want.
That's why I'm here. I'm seeking information to help me make an informed decision.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-14-18, 09:13
OP I think you should just stick to a 16” or longer rifle. This is seems like pretty tough stuff to figure out.
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-14-18, 09:14
Am I the only mother****er who goes on the internet and doesn’t give a **** what’s legal and what isn’t when I am shooting a gun on my own land?
Just wondering.
You’re not alone komrad
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I’m so glad no one on this forum does 66 in a 65.
I don't..... I do 70 in a 65......
ATF came out in the last letter and said:
“With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not ‘make’ a short-barreled firearm because … it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder.” The letter continues: “Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock — even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.”
So fire from the shoulder, be good, be happy. Cross your state lines, and if ever they choose to reverse this again, don’t incriminate your self on the internet and just say that your going to follow the laws to the best of your ability.
Simple.
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grizzlyblake
08-14-18, 09:35
Does anyone here know of anyone who has gotten flak for shooting a pistol AR from their shoulder at a public gun range?
I can't imagine how that would actually go down.
Does a range employee tap the shooter on the shoulder "Sir, you can't shoot that way. Please remove your arm brace from your shoulder or you will have to leave."
Serious question.
bamashooter
08-14-18, 09:52
To the OP, I respect your opinions and your questions. Federally, it's up to you to mine the data and interpret it (if necessary). With that said, I believe you should pass up acquiring / assembling a pistol unless you can convince yourself that you'll never shoulder the weapon. Personally, I'm fine with how I "mount" an AR pistol, how and where I store it, and I minimize situations which might attract those who feel otherwise.
Oh, do I remember my noobie days. Back than, posts got deleted. Back then, it was a god send covering up my idiocy.
As much as it makes me double take and shake my head a little bit, it wasn't but a few years ago when I thought "constructive intent" was a valid discussion around here.
Y'all set me straight, and are doing the same here.
Believe me Moon, I get it. I had a lotta reservations about staying within the lines. Face it with a healthy amount of skepticism, do a little reading and interpreting, and move on brotha.
I would say the majority of us have been in your same mindset before, but either you don't ever worry about it, you keep a healthy amount of caution and do your best with a shrug, or you dwell on every detail and lose 99% of the entertainment in the process.
Believe me when I say I would love to have option A mentality, I do fit into Option B. Shrug it off and move on.
The irony of many of the comments in this thread is not overseen.
OP I think you should just stick to a 16” or longer rifle. This is seems like pretty tough stuff to figure out.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I'm not offended either way. Making a decision is easy. Understanding the nuances of federal regulations that are subject to the whims of whoever is currently in charge is not.
ATF came out in the last letter and said:
“With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not ‘make’ a short-barreled firearm because … it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder.” The letter continues: “Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock — even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.”
So fire from the shoulder, be good, be happy. Cross your state lines, and if ever they choose to reverse this again, don’t incriminate your self on the internet and just say that your going to follow the laws to the best of your ability.
Simple.
I get it, and I appreciate the info. The analyst in me (or anal-ist as some might say) would focus on the word necessarily in the above letter. That little caveat allows them to say "but in your case..."
Whether or not I buy one remains to be seen. I haven't even fired one yet. I don't "intend" to circumvent any regulation and try to create a SBR out of an AR pistol. I just want to know what my options and limitations are.
OP,
The reality is the Fed is not this omnipotent omnipresent entity and truth be told nobody really cares about this stuff other than turncoat internet commandos who get jollies off on diming out fellow gun owners.
Have you seen the 922r compliance folks? Omg the autism is strong. They’re just as bad as ham radio folks who scream compliance violation whilst brushing Cheeto dust off they’re chin before berating you over the net because your output signal on your HT is in excess of the lawful limit. And then threaten to call the FCC on you.
At any rate. Get a lower, put a SBA3 on it, and just don’t send vids directly to the ATF (or any LE entity) taunting them like a jackass.
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Eurodriver
08-14-18, 13:06
Omg. 922r. Totally forgot about douchebags.
I am, for the first time, seriously considering swaping my 16" AR15 carbine for an 11.5" AR15 pistol, however I am still unsure of a couple of BATFE / NFA issues. I've tried finding definitive answers both here and on-line, but I'm still confused. I have read the initial "redesign" letter of 2012, and the revised clarification latter of 2017 (I believe this is the date), but if a letter can change the law, that doesn't give me much confidence in future clarification letters from future administrations.
While the future is always in flux, I want this project to be 200% legal today. Any doubt or gray area and I abort.
Specifically...
1) Can a person legally shoulder a brace-equipped AR15 pistol? Not incidental use, not accidental use, not once in a blue moon use, but whenever the mood strikes?
2) If yes to the above, are there specific braces that would allow this, and are there specific braces that would not allow this?
3) If no to the above, how is it that so many are so sure it's all good to go?
4) Can I place a 16" upper (taken off a carbine) onto a pistol lower?
5) If #4 is a yes, can I have my 11.5" AR15 pistol upper that I have removed from the pistol lower in the same house as a carbine lower if they remain un-attached (I know I cannot mount the pistol upper on the carbine lower without first obtaining all the NFA SBR paperwork).
1. As long as you did not build itbwith the intent and purpose to use it as an sbr, it is 100% legal to use however you like.
4. Yes
5. Yes. As long as you have a legal means of using the upper you are fine. You dont want to own a bunch of rifle lowers and short uppers and the only way to use them is on a rifle lower.
At the end of the day, if any of this is actually being investigated, you have bigger issues, like “why is the ATF here?”
bamashooter
08-14-18, 18:24
OP,
The reality is the Fed is not this omnipotent omnipresent entity and truth be told nobody really cares about this stuff other than turncoat internet commandos who get jollies off on diming out fellow gun owners.
Have you seen the 922r compliance folks? Omg the autism is strong. They’re just as bad as ham radio folks who scream compliance violation whilst brushing Cheeto dust off they’re chin before berating you over the net because your output signal on your HT is in excess of the lawful limit. And then threaten to call the FCC on you.
At any rate. Get a lower, put a SBA3 on it, and just don’t send vids directly to the ATF (or any LE entity) taunting them like a jackass.
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Now that's funny. Here I am not only giving a rat about the BATF or whatever they call themselves now but, I was also once a pirate. Next I'll be exposed for loathing the .......
Eurodriver
08-15-18, 13:46
Trolling lol
Moose-Knuckle
08-15-18, 19:47
OP, you should totally build yourself a clandestine lab and some machine guns on your private property cuz I've heard some guys on the internet say if found the penalties are the same as a speeding ticket and you know muh freedom.
Just ask Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians . . .
Mr. Goodtimes
08-16-18, 07:23
OP, you should totally build yourself a clandestine lab and some machine guns on your private property cuz I've heard some guys on the internet say if found the penalties are the same as a speeding ticket and you know muh freedom.
Just ask Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians . . .
Submit to the king like a good citizen.
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Outlander Systems
08-16-18, 07:24
SHALL...
Submit to the king like a good citizen.
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Despite what people on here say, local and state law enforcement can and sometimes will give you a hard time if they observe your shouldering a brace. They may be Fudds and ignorant, and you may not actually be “in trouble,” but you would still have to deal with he harassment. That’s reality. Spoke with an employee yesterday who was forced to leave a hunting area by a DNR officer last year.
Know your area. Consider your use of the weapon which has a brace mounted. If it is the weapon you would use in self-defense (carried in your car over state lines), be aware that you WILL receive extra scrutiny should you actually use it. But, a pistol with a short barrel that could be operated easily from within a vehicle (the reason for its having a brace that could be leveraged in tight and uncomfortable situations) is a practical and good thing. Don’t put videos on Instagram of your shouldering a brace while “training” and don’t do things that would cause any agency to be looking at you.
You are right about know your area ,if the deputies in my county saw me shooting my 12.5 6.8 pistol they would ask to shoot it and where could they get one but if the jerks in the next county over knew i had one in the truck they would pull me over and claim it to be a SBR even though the brace plainly says pistol brace .Of course I'd win at the cost of a lawyer and court Battle . When I'm going to that county I swap the 12.5 for a 16" . The only way the Feds will be talking to you is if the local or state asks them to if they are anti gun Leos they can always find an excuse to harass you . If your county is gun friendly no problems if not don't go asking for trouble by letting them watch you shoot it.
Despite what people on here say, local and state law enforcement can and sometimes will give you a hard time if they observe your shouldering a brace. They may be Fudds and ignorant, and you may not actually be “in trouble,” but you would still have to deal with he harassment. That’s reality. Spoke with an employee yesterday who was forced to leave a hunting area by a DNR officer last year.
Know your area. Consider your use of the weapon which has a brace mounted. If it is the weapon you would use in self-defense (carried in your car over state lines), be aware that you WILL receive extra scrutiny should you actually use it. But, a pistol with a short barrel that could be operated easily from within a vehicle (the reason for its having a brace that could be leveraged in tight and uncomfortable situations) is a practical and good thing. Don’t put videos on Instagram of your shouldering a brace while “training” and don’t do things that would cause any agency to be looking at you.
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Eurodriver
08-16-18, 12:17
OP, you should totally build yourself a clandestine lab and some machine guns on your private property cuz I've heard some guys on the internet say if found the penalties are the same as a speeding ticket and you know muh freedom.
Just ask Randy Weaver and the Branch Davidians . . .
Is it hard going through life being a pu$$y?
Is it hard going through life being a pu$$y?
If your so keen about bucking the system why are you getting rid of all your firearms? Why not just take them to Canada with you?
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This has been an interesting post for me to follow. There seems to generally be two trains of thought...
1) Be careful what I say, be careful where I shoot, be careful what I post, don't allow any vids to be taken and posted of me, and hope for the best. Build it and shoot it, just don't advertise if I inadvertently shoulder it, totally by accident of course.
2) Grow a pair. Do what I want. Who cares what the law states. Screw the feds, they can't watch everything all the time. Grow a pair (I stated this twice, as it seems to be a recuring theme).
For what it's worth, I live in a fairly gun friendly state, but a decidedly gun UN-friendly county. If I buy an AR pistol, I have no intention of trying, intentionally or unintentionally to circumvent the NFA. I think the law is stupid, but so be it.
Have I ever driven faster than 65 in a 65? Sure, but that's hardly a valid comparison.
I am keeping an open mind on my options, but I've read and reread the clarification letter from the ATF with that pesky weasel word "necessarily". That one word lets them pretty much interpret the rule any way they want, which was no doubt their intention when they put it in the letter.
As I stated before, I don't know if I will buy one. I've never even shot one. Based on what I've read here though, the odds are good I'll pass.
Guess I'm just a pussy.
This has been an interesting post for me to follow. There seems to generally be two trains of thought...
1) Be careful what I say, be careful where I shoot, be careful what I post, don't allow any vids to be taken and posted of me, and hope for the best. Build it and shoot it, just don't advertise if I inadvertently shoulder it, totally by accident of course.
2) Grow a pair. Do what I want. Who cares what the law states. Screw the feds, they can't watch everything all the time. Grow a pair (I stated this twice, as it seems to be a recuring theme).
For what it's worth, I live in a fairly gun friendly state, but a decidedly gun UN-friendly county. If I buy an AR pistol, I have no intention of trying, intentionally or unintentionally to circumvent the NFA. I think the law is stupid, but so be it.
Have I ever driven faster than 65 in a 65? Sure, but that's hardly a valid comparison.
I am keeping an open mind on my options, but I've read and reread the clarification letter from the ATF with that pesky weasel word "necessarily". That one word lets them pretty much interpret the rule any way they want, which was no doubt their intention when they put it in the letter.
As I stated before, I don't know if I will buy one. I've never even shot one. Based on what I've read here though, the odds are good I'll pass.
Guess I'm just a pussy.I don't think you are and neither does most of the others on here . What is perceived as a minimal risk to some may seem huge to others and it's your call not ours .Here in South Central Mo. I'm not at all concerned about carrying mine but I would think twice about going to st Louis with it and Ark is a no go so the carrying it from state to state as you stated could be a little bit of a problem . As far as BATF they have good memories When Reagan was president they got cocky and high on Carter's kool aid and Reagan cut their budget so bad they were carpooling ,as long as Trump is in office they will not make waves .
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Clarify : Arkansas is a no go because mine is 12.5 so they don't recognize it as a pistol .
I don't think you are and neither does most of the others on here . What is perceived as a minimal risk to some may seem huge to others and it's your call not ours .Here in South Central Mo. I'm not at all concerned about carrying mine but I would think twice about going to st Louis with it and Ark is a no go so the carrying it from state to state as you stated could be a little bit of a problem . As far as BATF they have good memories When Reagan was president they got cocky and high on Carter's kool aid and Reagan cut their budget so bad they were carpooling ,as long as Trump is in office they will not make waves .
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Keep in mind OP, the one guy in here telling you to do what you want, and calling people pussy, is selling all his firearms, destroying his NFA items, Moving to Canada, and wants to renounce is US citizenship, while also actively trying to make as many enemies on this board that he can.
So take his word with a grain of salt, and don’t let it reflect on the ones here trying to help you out.
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Keep in mind OP, the one guy in here telling you to do what you want, and calling people pussy, is selling all his firearms, destroying his NFA items, Moving to Canada, and wants to renounce is US citizenship, while also actively trying to make as many enemies on this board that he can.
So take his word with a grain of salt, and don’t let it reflect on the ones here trying to help you out.
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And yet he’s still a better shooter than 99% of the cpappers on this site.
Odd
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noonesshowmonkey
08-16-18, 22:46
And yet he’s still a better shooter than 99% of the cpappers on this site.
Odd
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As seen from personal experience.
And a CAB 03-series marine.
So...
Cast as many stones as you want in glass houses, brogham is a patriot and a warrior.
And yet he’s still a better shooter than 99% of the cpappers on this site.
Odd
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I’m not saying anything or questioning his ability as a shooter, only speaking on his attitude of late. He’s contributed a lot to this site, and has taught me a thing or two, but that doesn’t excuse his recent behavior.
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I’m not saying anything or questioning his ability as a shooter, only speaking on his attitude of late. He’s contributed a lot to this site, and has taught me a thing or two, but that doesn’t excuse his recent behavior.
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Meh, people take the internet to serious
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Moose-Knuckle
08-17-18, 15:54
Submit to the king like a good citizen.
SHALL...
You internet rebels should post some pics of your muh Molon labe modificated firearms to moisten all of us subjects of the Crown panties. Allah knows I could use the inspiration . . .
Moose-Knuckle
08-17-18, 15:55
Is it hard going through life being a pu$$y?
As a CPA do advise your clientele to break Federal tax laws? If not, is it because you are a pu$$y?
Do you as an internet badass pay your own taxes? If you do is it because you are a pu$$y?
While you confer with your circle jerk to produce a real man of genius rebuttal . . .
Do you resort to calling people you don't like names because you are stupid enough to think that it will make them mad and hurt their feelings? Or do you resort to calling people you don't like names because you are stupid and you know how mad it makes you and how much your feelings get all butt hurt when you're called a name?
Moose-Knuckle
08-17-18, 15:55
And yet he’s still a better shooter than 99% of the cpappers on this site.
Odd
You or your boyfriend shoot against 99% of the cpappers on this site? I recall one member told him to put his money where his keyboard is and invited him to shoot at a range of his choice and he went all ghost on him. Then you and the rest of the circle jerk blathered on about he was skeered to get ass raped from stranger danger.
As seen from personal experience.
And a CAB 03-series marine.
So...
Cast as many stones as you want in glass houses, brogham is a patriot and a warrior.
Yes, yes . . . but what does he taste like?
Moose,
Just keep in mind the stupidity level of said dbs' posts are amplified depending on how drunk said db is at the time.
In case you or anybody else missed it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180817/118ab0df542b70d2c398847d0130f988.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180817/68e4f36485b40282dec8d6cb931ccdcb.jpg
Millennials. SMH.
"Cause OMG, muh boy's precision AR is precision."
Lulz I can hear the jimmies rustling from across the vastness of the interwebs
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Eurodriver can shoot. Better then most I have seen. End of discussion. Move back to stupid pistol AR shit.
And BTW..... His drunk posts are funny as Fu$#...... Especially when he thinks he is sending am PM...... :jester:
noonesshowmonkey
08-17-18, 18:34
Yes, yes . . . but what does he taste like?
I don't remember insulting anyone on here.
Is this the kind of elevated commentary that you normally bring to the table?
I don't remember insulting anyone on here.
Is this the kind of elevated commentary that you normally bring to the table?Maybe he was referring to this. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180817/ac371ce8b2519c1f8c3626af5c1bf591.jpg
noonesshowmonkey
08-17-18, 18:40
Maybe he was referring to this...
:blink:
Oh, right.
That.
:lol:
Having a rough and ready (PHRASING!) friendship and camaraderie amongst fellow men based on mutual respect and warrior skills might be lost on moose-knuckle...
Exactly what does being a better shooter have to do with anything .
And yet he’s still a better shooter than 99% of the cpappers on this site.
Odd
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firefighter37
08-17-18, 19:20
Exactly what does being a better shooter have to do with anything .
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Because while you guys are out worrying about pistols and stuff, he is out shooting what may or may not be legal.
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That made absolutely no sense whatsoever . The op was looking for grown up advice and several people gave pros and cons on at pistols then children got involved and hijacked the topic . Where I live there are no disadvantages 30 miles south it's not legal ,that is what he needed to know not how good someone else can shoot cor suck or anything else.
Because while you guys are out worrying about pistols and stuff, he is out shooting what may or may not be legal.
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That made absolutely no sense whatsoever . The op was looking for grown up advice and several people gave pros and cons on AR pistols then children got involved and hijacked the topic . Where I live there are no disadvantages 30 miles south it's not legal ,that is what he needed to know not how good someone else can shoot cor suck or anything else.
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Because while you guys are out worrying about pistols and stuff, he is out shooting what may or may not be legal.
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This thread is not about his skills...
And last I checked he wasnt shooting anything - he was destroying it to comply with the local laws of the place he was going to live...
Much like the OP.
firefighter37
08-17-18, 21:12
This thread is not about his skills...
And last I checked he wasnt shooting anything - he was destroying it to comply with the local laws of the place he was going to live...
Much like the OP.
Stalk him much?
You guys worry about way too much.
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-17-18, 22:26
Because while you guys are out worrying about pistols and stuff, he is out shooting what may or may not be legal.
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Lol I like this post
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-17-18, 22:27
This thread is not about his skills...
And last I checked he wasnt shooting anything - he was destroying it to comply with the local laws of the place he was going to live...
Much like the OP.
He’s moved past that.
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I am, for the first time, seriously considering swaping my 16" AR15 carbine for an 11.5" AR15 pistol, however I am still unsure of a couple of BATFE / NFA issues. I've tried finding definitive answers both here and on-line, but I'm still confused. I have read the initial "redesign" letter of 2012, and the revised clarification latter of 2017 (I believe this is the date), but if a letter can change the law, that doesn't give me much confidence in future clarification letters from future administrations.
While the future is always in flux, I want this project to be 200% legal today. Any doubt or gray area and I abort.
Specifically...
1) Can a person legally shoulder a brace-equipped AR15 pistol? Not incidental use, not accidental use, not once in a blue moon use, but whenever the mood strikes?
Yes, you may shoulder a pistol equipped with an arm brace. What you may not do is modify the brace in a way that it can only be used as a shoulder stock.
2) If yes to the above, are there specific braces that would allow this, and are there specific braces that would not allow this?
To the best of my knowledge, the BATF does not prohibit any arm brace, or other device attached to a pistol, from being shouldered. A shoulder stock on a pistol without the proper paperwork is prohibited whether it's shouldered or not.
4) Can I place a 16" upper (taken off a carbine) onto a pistol lower?
Yes.
5) If #4 is a yes, can I have my 11.5" AR15 pistol upper that I have removed from the pistol lower in the same house as a carbine lower if they remain un-attached (I know I cannot mount the pistol upper on the carbine lower without first obtaining all the NFA SBR paperwork).
Yes, with a caveat. You may not have a combination of parts that can only be assembled in a prohibited configuration. For example, if you have a rifle upper, a rifle lower and a pistol upper, you are not in violation of the law as you can assemble the rifle upper and rifle lower in a lawful configuration. However, if (for example) you had a rifle case with a cutout in the form of an SBR, even if you never assemble the rifle with the pistol upper, it could be argued you intended to violate the law.
If you have a rifle lower and a pistol upper, you are in violation of constructive intent.
In your case, as long as you do not assemble your uppers and lowers in a prohibited configuration, you will not be in violation of the law
For specifics, search for the results of the lawsuit Thompson brought against the ATF and the letters the agency issued as a result.
Moonshot, just ignore the babushkas purse fighting in your thread. It's not how ArmyChief would have us behave.
Just remember AC served and fought for the freedoms and liberties some y’all are so willing to dismiss and submit to.
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AC also knew that resisting tyranny does not mean losing one's decorum.
Stalk him much?
You guys worry about way too much.
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No, he posted a thread, here on M4C about it and the title was of interest.
He’s moved past that.
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If that means he’s not moving, that’s good.
johnnywitt
08-18-18, 14:46
Buying a Fully Assembled Pistol, or even a Pistol Marked Fully Assembled Lower and transferred on the 4473 as a Pistol would be the safest course of action IMHO.
Second safest is to purchase a stripped lower as an Other and keep a copy or picture of the 4473 & then first assemble it into a pistol by attaching a Pistol Brace & take a date marked picture and keep for evidence.
I have a poll for the third option of which I'm not sure & getting conflicting info due to the nasty hornets nest of various rulings and letters.
Moonshot, I hope I was able to answer your questions. I won't pretend to be an expert on the law, but I've been shooting an AR pistol with an arm brace since they were first released. I've shot it in five different states. Currently, I'm working the bugs out of a second braced AR pistol in 22 LR. The AR pistol has accompanied to five different states. No one has ever given me any grief and I've shot it in the presence of law enforcement officers. Of course, they were gun-guys and were just interested in how well the pistol worked.
I started with the first arm brace.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-RKLwL49/0/6781bca2/c9sA0pnk%2BWUrAmzyQi8OV03ckyw%3D-1534706117-O/i-RKLwL49.jpg
When SB Tactical introduced the sleeker Galil model, it didn't take me long to switch
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-w34WCPM/0/4c61f85c/KTUtLFkGpZM9aC1WQTtFalDUli0%3D-1534706117-O/i-w34WCPM.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TkZ7hfC/0/3a23f24c/9cH%2BYNFv5ENDDuAqQG1FyhxMlOY%3D-1534706117-O/i-TkZ7hfC.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-DRjS878/0/784d7d8f/XL/i-DRjS878-XL.jpg
I added an SBA3 to the repertoire as soon as I could. With it's adjustable length, it better fits arms long or short.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-7tq8xLF/0/d4f83103/X2/i-7tq8xLF-X2.jpg
The kids love shooting the brace equipped AR pistol. It's hands down their favorite.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-37tbZPd/0/996cec44/XL/i-37tbZPd-XL.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-PMPvdLK/0/22623ba8/XL/i-PMPvdLK-XL.jpg
I haven't found ownership of a brace equipped AR to be any more complicated than any other non-NFA firearm. Get a braced AR pistol and enjoy it.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VNxdv8P/0/b3e3733e/XL/i-VNxdv8P-XL.jpg
Buying a Fully Assembled Pistol, or even a Pistol Marked Fully Assembled Lower and transferred on the 4473 as a Pistol would be the safest course of action IMHO.
Second safest is to purchase a stripped lower as an Other and keep a copy or picture of the 4473 & then first assemble it into a pistol by attaching a Pistol Brace & take a date marked picture and keep for evidence.
I have a poll for the third option of which I'm not sure & getting conflicting info due to the nasty hornets nest of various rulings and letters.
We have had this very same conversation, time and time again. The answer is, buy a pistol, or get just a lower, stripped or not. A pistol is to be listed as a handgun on the Form 4473 at the time of purchase. A lower is to be listed as other unless local regulations require otherwise. No matter how often we sort this out, people still make a special effort to confuse the issue all over again.
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-18, 05:27
I am, for the first time, seriously considering swaping my 16" AR15 carbine for an 11.5" AR15 pistol, however I am still unsure of a couple of BATFE / NFA issues. I've tried finding definitive answers both here and on-line, but I'm still confused. I have read the initial "redesign" letter of 2012, and the revised clarification latter of 2017 (I believe this is the date), but if a letter can change the law, that doesn't give me much confidence in future clarification letters from future administrations.
While the future is always in flux, I want this project to be 200% legal today. Any doubt or gray area and I abort.
moonshot, you've got a PM inbound with some info about two different M4C members that have had BATFE agents pay them a house call. My apologies, I would have sent it to you sooner but I was away for the weekend for a end of summer blowout. Cheers.
Is this the kind of elevated commentary that you normally bring to the table?
Permit me to answer your question with a question, are you a fluffer?
AC also knew that resisting tyranny does not mean losing one's decorum.
Not only did he dodge my question (SOP with them) he then had to bring up AC in a thread they trolled. AC would have shut down the trolling quick fast and in a hurry and he never would of allowed the open discussion of violating NFA on a public forum.
Voodoochild
08-20-18, 16:37
Either get back on topic or I close this thread since it seems that AR pistol questions have all been answered.
Pistol marked lowers are a gimmick and mean absolutely nothing. They are done for those who have difficulty understanding the laws.
Buying a Fully Assembled Pistol, or even a Pistol Marked Fully Assembled Lower and transferred on the 4473 as a Pistol would be the safest course of action IMHO.
Second safest is to purchase a stripped lower as an Other and keep a copy or picture of the 4473 & then first assemble it into a pistol by attaching a Pistol Brace & take a date marked picture and keep for evidence.
I have a poll for the third option of which I'm not sure & getting conflicting info due to the nasty hornets nest of various rulings and letters.
I’m so glad no one on this forum does 66 in a 65.
Speeding is not a felony where one would be looking at 10 years in prison. Doing something is one thing, documenting it and bragging about it another.
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