View Full Version : Couple to prove people are good; MURDERED
Americans on a tour of the world set out to prove that people are generally good get murdered in Turkmenistan. Stupid games
https://www.pluralist.com/posts/1824-millennial-couple-bikes-through-isis-territory-to-prove-humans-are-kind-and-gets-killed
They should have just believed God, or maybe history.
still cant figure out how people are so so so stupid sometimes ? sad for the parents
They should have just believed God, or maybe history.
The Gods of the Copybook Maxims?
The worst thing about good people is they honestly can't even comprehend evil. Part of me wishes the world was full of such people, but then I remember that the entire world could then be enslaved by a single evil person.
It's a shame they had to lose their lives because they didn't understand truly evil people exist. But just as you sometimes can't fix stupid, you also can't make people understand things they can't relate to. Truly evil people will never understand what it is to be good and sometimes really good people can't understand what true evil is.
I try to be good, but not so good that I fail to understand evil exists. But at least their example may serve as a warning to other "good people."
They should have just believed God, or maybe history.
How do you know they didn't? I seem to remember a school full of Amish kids accepting their own slaughter because of their beliefs when one bad person came for them.
Well if the premise is that these poor murdered people believed that people are good then they evidently didn't believe or maybe even read what the God I know said about fallen humanity. Must have been operating under a different set of propositions.
As for the Amish, they are pacifists. They would not resist violence with violence. The Anabaptists I have spoken to do understand evil and humanity's propensity toward it.
Well if the premise is that these poor murdered people believed that people are good then they evidently didn't believe or maybe even read what the God I know said about fallen humanity. Must have been operating under a different set of propositions.
As for the Amish, they are pacifists. They would not resist violence with violence. The Anabaptists I have spoken to do understand evil and humanity's propensity toward it.
And the point remains that there are many people who believe in God who still believe that there is good in everyone or won't resist violence with violence. So unless they specifically cited their beliefs, we shouldn't make assumptions, it's bad enough they died because they believed people are basically good.
Plenty of people doing missionary work in places every bit as dangerous who believe their faith alone will save them, I wish it was always true. Of course I wish people everywhere were "basically good" but I know that isn't the case.
Yes it is my assertion that to believe that people are good is so gross an error in understanding what the Bible teaches about sin and sinners that it would indicate unbelief or a situation of never reading the scriptures at all. It's that plain.
They did cite their beliefs....people are basically good.
The worst thing about good people is they honestly can't even comprehend evil. Part of me wishes the world was full of such people, but then I remember that the entire world could then be enslaved by a single evil person.
It's a shame they had to lose their lives because they didn't understand truly evil people exist. But just as you sometimes can't fix stupid, you also can't make people understand things they can't relate to. Truly evil people will never understand what it is to be good and sometimes really good people can't understand what true evil is.
I try to be good, but not so good that I fail to understand evil exists. But at least their example may serve as a warning to other "good people."
I think people like that think you or me or anyone on the right is evil dangerous and scary and the terrorists are the good ones and we are making them this way
They did cite their beliefs....people are basically good.
And for all we know they were Mormons. Are you as critical of missionaries who get slaughtered in Africa?
I think people like that think you or me or anyone on the right is evil dangerous and scary and the terrorists are the good ones and we are making them this way
Sadly if we apply Bizarro Berkeley logic that scenario is entirely plausible. In a huge irony, Islamist believe homosexuality is a crime punishable by death, women are property, child rape is permissible and anyone who doesn't strictly adhere to their brand of religious fundamentalism can be put to death but when you point out their hypocrisy because they hate Americans who simply don't agree with homosexuality, object to radical feminism and choose to be religious they reply "it's a different culture so it's not the same thing."
Seems to me if the US would just actually engage in a little bit of Imperialism, since they are being accused of it anyway, we could just keep one of these countries that we waste time rescuing the people from themselves and their preferred culture and we could establish a country based upon Western Democracy and Roman concepts of a Republic where people would be free to own guns, make their own decisions about religion, have free speech, free expression and practice a little bit of conservatism to preserve such ideas. If it happens to have natural resources such as oil, even better.
I'm thinking Turkey would be a candidate since they are so fond of invading places like Cyprus. We can let the Russians have Syria as a trade off.
And for all we know they were Mormons. Are you as critical of missionaries who get slaughtered in Africa?
Don't understand your reference to Mormons.
As for missionaries. Whether they get my criticism or not would depend on the situation. Number one on the list is are they actually proclaiming the true gospel. If their situation is dangerous yet not completely suicidal I wouldn't criticize at all. Being a spokesman for God has always been dangerous to one degree or another. I try to always have sympathy for those that are murdered no matter what their beliefs...nobody deserves to be murdered at the hands of another. The problem with this couple is that they put themselves in a bad spot because they believed a lie. If their intention was to prove that people are good, they didn't believe God or even history apart from God. Even history shows the barbarous nature of man.
Don't understand your reference to Mormons.
As for missionaries. Whether they get my criticism or not would depend on the situation. Number one on the list is are they actually proclaiming the true gospel. If their situation is dangerous yet not completely suicidal I wouldn't criticize at all. Being a spokesman for God has always been dangerous to one degree or another. I try to always have sympathy for those that are murdered no matter what their beliefs...nobody deserves to be murdered at the hands of another. The problem with this couple is that they put themselves in a bad spot because they believed a lie. If their intention was to prove that people are good, they didn't believe God or even history apart from God. Even history shows the barbarous nature of man.
While I don't disagree with your worldly view, it seems at odds with things like this.
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Now I'm no expert, but it seems like Jesus is telling people to go out and love your fellow man, even with consequences be damned.
My Mormon comment was based on the fact that the people I've met who truly seem to try and walk the walk and are the most polite and courteous people I've ever encountered are often Mormons. They will do almost anything to rescue others to the true faith of Mormonism.
While I don't disagree with your worldly view, it seems at odds with things like this.
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Now I'm no expert, but it seems like Jesus is telling people to go out and love your fellow man, even with consequences be damned.
My Mormon comment was based on the fact that the people I've met who truly seem to try and walk the walk and are the most polite and courteous people I've ever encountered are often Mormons. They will do almost anything to rescue others to the true faith of Mormonism.
Yes loving God and neighbor are commanded, but we must be careful about the definition of love. Biblically speaking it's an action more than a feeling. Affections do play a part. So, loving God and neighbor would primarily involve keeping God's commandments...toward God and toward neighbor. Keeping those commandments must be done for the right motives also...for the glory of God. Consequences do play a part in that God isn't asking Christians to put themselves in hopelessly suicidal situations willy nilly. Has every Christian been called to be a missionary, a pastor, an elder, an apostle etc; etc., the answer is no. There are times when we are to flee persecution, there are times to defend ones life. God never tells us to purposely seek suffering. The first thing God has called me to, beside 1st loving Him, is to love my wife and children, and to take care of them to best of my abilities. Do I live up to loving God and neighbor as God has commanded...of course not, but I'm learning. Keep in mind that the perfect embodiment of love, Jesus Himself, whipped the money changers and drove them from the temple for their grievous sin against God.
As far as your experience of Mormons goes, I could say the same for many of the Christians I've met. (I don't consider Mormons to be Christians). Believer and unbeliever can manifest various degrees of civil righteousness...no one is as bad as they can be. There would be a huge difference in motivation for those good works though.
The worst thing about good people is they honestly can't even comprehend evil. Part of me wishes the world was full of such people, but then I remember that the entire world could then be enslaved by a single evil person.
It's a shame they had to lose their lives because they didn't understand truly evil people exist. But just as you sometimes can't fix stupid, you also can't make people understand things they can't relate to. Truly evil people will never understand what it is to be good and sometimes really good people can't understand what true evil is.
I try to be good, but not so good that I fail to understand evil exists. But at least their example may serve as a warning to other "good people."
Well said.
Same concept applies to people who think that guns are "bad".
Guns themselves arent bad, same as knives. Its the bad people who use them that's bad/evil.
Adrenaline_6
08-17-18, 08:01
Their concept has no logic to it (as usual). Without evil, there would be no such thing as good, no light without dark. One exists because the other does.
Seems to me if the US would just actually engage in a little bit of Imperialism, since they are being accused of it anyway, we could just keep one of these countries that we waste time rescuing the people from themselves and their preferred culture and we could establish a country based upon Western Democracy and Roman concepts of a Republic where people would be free to own guns, make their own decisions about religion, have free speech, free expression and practice a little bit of conservatism to preserve such ideas. If it happens to have natural resources such as oil, even better.
I'm thinking Turkey would be a candidate since they are so fond of invading places like Cyprus. We can let the Russians have Syria as a trade off.
It's definitely not a politically correct sentiment, but I've had the same thoughts. Maybe add Venezuela to that list.
They should have just believed God, or maybe history.
I bet if the wife was more amenable to submitting herself as the lord intended this could have been avoided.
At any rate they made a unwise choice and were rewarded for their stupidity.
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-17-18, 08:51
They should have just believed God, or maybe history.
You don’t need to read a 10,000 year old book to understand that evil exists, all you’ve need to do is read the headlines or turn on the news for 5 minutes every morning to realize the world is full of evil.
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You don’t need to read a 10,000 year old book to understand that evil exists, all you’ve need to do is read the headlines or turn on the news for 5 minutes every morning to realize the world is full of evil.
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Just attend a DNC rally and it’s pretty obvious [emoji23]
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The_War_Wagon
08-17-18, 08:58
Bicycles were AWESOME... when I was 12. :rolleyes:
I swear, bicycles make ya' stupid after 16 - and the more money you spend on a bicycle and related gear (especially apparel), the dumber you get.
Doc Safari
08-17-18, 09:26
Americans on a tour of the world set out to prove that people are generally good get murdered in Turkmenistan. Stupid games
https://www.pluralist.com/posts/1824-millennial-couple-bikes-through-isis-territory-to-prove-humans-are-kind-and-gets-killed
Play stupid games; win stupid prizes. In a way it removes some lack of intelligence and good judgment from the gene pool.
You don’t need to read a 10,000 year old book to understand that evil exists, all you’ve need to do is read the headlines or turn on the news for 5 minutes every morning to realize the world is full of evil.
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Well, the Bible isn't quite that old, but never the less, I would say there is a pretty big demographic that doesn't really have a good anthropology and a good handle on what evil actually is. The reason I mentioned history in that what's on the daily news is IMO just the most recent history, at least when it's reported truthfully.
Averageman
08-17-18, 10:12
Proving once again believing the fantasy world story the left puts out there will get you raped and or murdered.
I bet if the wife was more amenable to submitting herself as the lord intended this could have been avoided.
At any rate they made a unwise choice and were rewarded for their stupidity.
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Not sure what you mean about the wife's submission...could have talked him out of the trip?
Not too much zealotry on my part this time?:confused:
Someone said I got booted off of Assbook (facebook) for posting good riddance to these two f@cktards. I haven't checked yet. :laugh:
There is no bad people is this world. That couple, since they're dead, they can speak to the 2 million souls in Cambodia that died between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. Ask them if there are evil people in this world?
Someone said I got booted off of Assbook (facebook) for posting good riddance to these two f@cktards. I haven't checked yet. :laugh:
Harsh, my man, harsh.
There is no bad people is this world. That couple, since they're dead, they can speak to the 2 million souls in Cambodia that died between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. Ask them if there are evil people in this world?
Or the 50+ million killed by that darling of the Left, Mao Zedong.
titsonritz
08-17-18, 15:01
It's hard for me to feel sorry for clueless people, it just is, and this dead couple qualifies. Bummer for them and theirs but zero shits allocated.
“Life is hard; it’s even harder when you’re stupid”
It’s a no win situation for them. Suppose they were correct and biked across the Middle East unmolested and 100% in tact and had a wonderful experience meeting wonderful people. NOBODY CARES. It changes zero opinions. The right says fake news and the left says of course. The whole exercise is futile.
Now however it ONLY enforces the opinion of people of our ilk.
Doc Safari
08-17-18, 17:28
There is no bad people is this world. That couple, since they're dead, they can speak to the 2 million souls in Cambodia that died between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. Ask them if there are evil people in this world?
In a way, the death of that couple does serve a purpose: It's the perfect cautionary tale for any other idiots that think the world is a beautiful place full of shiny happy people holding hands.
they just need to go to the hood in chicago etc.. save on travel and same ending I reckon
they just need to go to the hood in chicago etc.. save on travel and same ending I reckon
I had a friend who grew up in Southside. He volunteered to enlist and go to Vietnam as he thought it would be safer. Turned out he was right. He survived his 12 months and when he got home he found his best friend in a gutter knifed.
People can believe whatever they want but other people are free to do what they want regardless of your belief. And some of them are evil, or sociopaths/psychopaths and have no concept of caring one whit for another human being. I do respect this couple acting on their belief. Many liberals sit home in their giant carbon ass-print homes and merely lecture others.
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Anne Frank once said "I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart". She died in a concentration camp.
I'm glad there are good people in this world, really I am. I just wish they could get their heads out of the sand and realize there is true evil in this world too.
Anne Frank once said "I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart". She died in a concentration camp.
I'm glad there are good people in this world, really I am. I just wish they could get their heads out of the sand and realize there is true evil in this world too.
And even though she died, "good people" fought a war against the evil that killed her and brought an end to those concentration camps. And I think that was the point of the quote and the reason her father printed her diaries.
So while not everyone is essentially good, every time somebody makes the assertion that everyone is a sinner and most of humanity is bad, it's a slap in the face of every one who ever died trying to save the life of another person. And there have been a lot of "good people" throughout history who died trying to make the world a better place or to protect the innocent.
I wish we lived in a world where Anne Frank was right and people could bicycle everywhere without fear of anything, but I'm not going to lay blame at the feet of the victims even if they are naive, misguided or even completely clueless. Some soulless creature murdered innocents in the name of religion and that is who I blame.
And I'm honestly glad that there are people who haven't experienced true evil, who haven't had to see real suffering first hand and can live an existence uncontaminated by these creatures. I only wish they had stayed in their safety bubble, it must be nice to not know how bad things can be.
Pluralist (link cited in the OP) published a slanted, misleading and in some parts factually incorrect story, and they've had to amend it twice as a result.
The cyclists weren't on a mission to prove something political or ideological -- pure bullshit unsupported by anything they said or wrote, but spun that way ex post facto as red meat for those whose ignorance or tilt makes them susceptible to the message.
Tajikistan is neither ISIS territory nor high risk travel destination.
They were travelers who happened to draw the short straw.
Shame there's so much schadenfreude over American citizens killed by terrorists.
This is actually quite simple. People all over the world are generally peices of shit. Period. If it took them getting killed to figure that out then oh well. I am glad to see that stupid hurts. People that stupid and naive are a danger to themselves and others. Good riddance.
This is actually quite simple. People all over the world are generally peices of shit. Period. If it took them getting killed to figure that out then oh well. I am glad to see that stupid hurts. People that stupid and naive are a danger to themselves and others. Good riddance.
There seems to be some sort of correlation involving AKs.
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Pluralist (link cited in the OP) published a slanted, misleading and in some parts factually incorrect story, and they've had to amend it twice as a result.
The cyclists weren't on a mission to prove something political or ideological -- pure bullshit unsupported by anything they said or wrote, but spun that way ex post facto as red meat for those whose ignorance or tilt makes them susceptible to the message.
Tajikistan is neither ISIS territory nor high risk travel destination.
They were travelers who happened to draw the short straw.
Shame there's so much schadenfreude over American citizens killed by terrorists.
As a general rule I'd avoid the "stans" whenever possible. But your update is appreciated.
Pluralist (link cited in the OP) published a slanted, misleading and in some parts factually incorrect story, and they've had to amend it twice as a result.
The cyclists weren't on a mission to prove something political or ideological -- pure bullshit unsupported by anything they said or wrote, but spun that way ex post facto as red meat for those whose ignorance or tilt makes them susceptible to the message.
Tajikistan is neither ISIS territory nor high risk travel destination.
They were travelers who happened to draw the short straw.
Shame there's so much schadenfreude over American citizens killed by terrorists.
Agreed, unfortunate that people on this board are so keen to gloat as if our fellow Americans being murdered overseas by ISIS terrorists is somehow a positive thing.
Pluralist (link cited in the OP) published a slanted, misleading and in some parts factually incorrect story, and they've had to amend it twice as a result.
The cyclists weren't on a mission to prove something political or ideological -- pure bullshit unsupported by anything they said or wrote, but spun that way ex post facto as red meat for those whose ignorance or tilt makes them susceptible to the message.
Tajikistan is neither ISIS territory nor high risk travel destination.
They were travelers who happened to draw the short straw.
Shame there's so much schadenfreude over American citizens killed by terrorists.
no pleasure as you claim
purely ignorance and stupidity on their part and I do think what they wrote and the path they took says it all
what they said from their blog
we're not ruling out entire nations simply because something once happened there or because our government and that country's government don't get along so well.
Despite what the news would have you believe, the world is a really wonderful, caring place,
we just have to trust that the vast, vast majority of humans on this planet are warm, friendly people who wish us no harm.
a travel accident would be they went to London or France and got caught up in something !
as someone who has travelled (maybe 15+ countries) lived 3 years of my life out of a two man tent ! and maybe ten years of my life was 3 bags and that was it
and maybe 15,000-20,000 miles of it on bicycle and public buses and hitch hiking through Central America and lived in Honduras I am very aware of this kinda travel and meet a ton of folks who have done this kinda stuff
in my travels I met tons of wonderful local folks and many are kind BUT at the same time as we all know here predators seek you out and will do things to you and you avoid certain places times method of travel etc..
but most I met were not ignorant about bad people or ignore news or warnings etc....
ironic those that were that way always had horror stories
Pluralist (link cited in the OP) published a slanted, misleading and in some parts factually incorrect story, and they've had to amend it twice as a result.
The cyclists weren't on a mission to prove something political or ideological -- pure bullshit unsupported by anything they said or wrote, but spun that way ex post facto as red meat for those whose ignorance or tilt makes them susceptible to the message.
Tajikistan is neither ISIS territory nor high risk travel destination.
They were travelers who happened to draw the short straw.
Shame there's so much schadenfreude over American citizens killed by terrorists.
So they weren't trying to show that people are basically good? Where did you find the real story, I'd like to check it out? And it's terrible shame whenever anyone is murdered.
So they weren't trying to show that people are basically good? Where did you find the real story, I'd like to check it out? And it's terrible shame whenever anyone is murdered.They were not trying to show that people are basically good (though that was a stated belief of theirs), or anything else -- that was the implication of a misleading title (that has since been changed) in one inaccurate story (that had to be openly corrected) and other sites and folks ran with it because they uncritically buy into cheap irony and unvetted, shitty narratives if the losers are on the opposite side of the political spectrum, even if that means tacitly approving terrorists murdering U.S. citizens.
Which is f***ed.
The corrections can be found in the source story, linked in the OP.
They may have been idealistic, perhaps even naive but they had biked from South Africa to Europe and across both Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan before going in to Tajikistan. Their confidence was well earned.
"The U.S. travel advisory for Tajikistan on July 29, according to a State Department official, was at Level 1, the lowest, which means Americans traveling in the country should “exercise normal precautions.” (On Aug. 3, the advisory was raised to Level 2: “Exercise increased caution.”)"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/07/world/asia/islamic-state-tajikistan-bike-attack.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/were-the-american-cyclists-killed-in-tajikistan-naive-for-traveling-there/2018/08/14/f8212ca8-9b36-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3a31f7ee96aa
They were not trying to show that people are basically good (though that was a stated belief of theirs), or anything else -- that was the implication of a misleading title (that has since been changed) in one inaccurate story (that had to be openly corrected) and other sites and folks ran with it because they uncritically buy into cheap irony and unvetted, shitty narratives if the losers are on the opposite side of the political spectrum, even if that means tacitly approving terrorists murdering U.S. citizens.
Which is f***ed.
The corrections can be found in the source story, linked in the OP.
Even though the headline and the basic premise had changed, it's still evident that these two folks have a faulty view of humanity. People may demonstrate various degrees of outward kindness or goodwill but they are still fatally flawed at their very root. And their idea that work is a waste of time is just stupid. Maybe the work that they were doing was a waste of time, but that just proves their ideas were faulty not work.
They were not trying to show that people are basically good (though that was a stated belief of theirs), or anything else -- that was the implication of a misleading title (that has since been changed) in one inaccurate story (that had to be openly corrected) and other sites and folks ran with it because they uncritically buy into cheap irony and unvetted, shitty narratives if the losers are on the opposite side of the political spectrum, even if that means tacitly approving terrorists murdering U.S. citizens.
Which is f***ed.
The corrections can be found in the source story, linked in the OP.
That is the part that is seriously offensive to me.
Even though the headline and the basic premise had changed, it's still evident that these two folks have a faulty view of humanity. People may demonstrate various degrees of outward kindness or goodwill but they are still fatally flawed at their very root. And their idea that work is a waste of time is just stupid. Maybe the work that they were doing was a waste of time, but that just proves their ideas were faulty not work.
So the legions of humans throughout history, who have sacrificed their own lives to save others, despite that outward kindness...were they still fatally flawed at their root?
I understand humans are capable of horrible things, but I don't think they are inherently bad any more than they are inherently evil. I think there are people who are mostly good and I think there are people who are mostly bad and I think a lot of it is environmental.
That is the part that is seriously offensive to me.
So the legions of humans throughout history, who have sacrificed their own lives to save others, despite that outward kindness...were they still fatally flawed at their root?
I understand humans are capable of horrible things, but I don't think they are inherently bad any more than they are inherently evil. I think there are people who are mostly good and I think there are people who are mostly bad and I think a lot of it is environmental.Probably. One can be flawed and still do great things.
There has only ever been one who was not flawed at heart, Jesus. I do good thing for plenty of people, but I know there is evil in my heart. The entire Bible is full of great hero's who did great things, yet all but one were flawed, and screwed up plenty of times.
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That is the part that is seriously offensive to me.
So the legions of humans throughout history, who have sacrificed their own lives to save others, despite that outward kindness...were they still fatally flawed at their root?
I understand humans are capable of horrible things, but I don't think they are inherently bad any more than they are inherently evil. I think there are people who are mostly good and I think there are people who are mostly bad and I think a lot of it is environmental.
Steyr, of course we're going to disagree on our anthropology. I get mine from the bible and you get your's from the world. You talked about sin and sinners in an early post, and I suppose that was directed at me, since I'm the one who brought up God. I believe God's testimony about man, not the world's and especially not an empirical observation of men, because observation can not see, hear, taste, or touch the inner most workings of the inner man, but also because our senses can be deceived and our minds don't think perfectly. The definition of sin is a violation of or a lack of keeping God's law in thought word or deed. I doubt seriously you live up to even your own self imposed standards of right and wrong let alone the commandments of a perfectly holy and righteous God. In the end we have diametrically opposed world views and completely different standards about what makes people good or bad and how we justify those beliefs. Because a man or woman does a seemingly wonderful act from our limited perspective doesn't negate in the least the millions of other ways in which they have sinned against the Lord. We don't do evil because of our environment, we do evil because we are in and of ourselves corrupt to the core. The bible is THE MOST unflattering book ever written about man, and men hate it and the God who inspired it. So you may put people into your own set of categories of "these people over here are good" and these people over here are evil" based upon your outward observations, but I esteem infinitely more Jesus Christ's observation and knowledge more than yours'. And Jesus called us evil. History itself isn't very flattering either.
You asked me once why I believe all this because of idea of a god seemed so weak to you or something to that effect. Well I can't think of a more profound idea than the God of the bible. It sure seems to have had a big impact on the world. But I would ask you why you believe your position is any better? What's so profound or hopeful even about the idea that all that you are is just a chance happening of an unthinking and uncaring universe? That the universe doesn't care whether you are here or not, that ultimately everything you think is just a chance electro/chemical reaction going on in your head, which the universe doesn't think is any more important that the dirt on bottom of your shoe...because really their just the same things rearranged.
thought I posted this ?
Marcus Luttrell (spelling?)
folks in bad areas saved his life and stood up to the bad people so yeah their is good
again the problem is bad folks hunt down good folks and the guy that saved Marcus I reckon is on a whole other level than the bicycle folks about reality of life and bad people
Probably. One can be flawed and still do great things.
There has only ever been one who was not flawed at heart, Jesus. I do good thing for plenty of people, but I know there is evil in my heart. The entire Bible is full of great hero's who did great things, yet all but one were flawed, and screwed up plenty of times.
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And that is why I'm not religious.
When a man with all of the ordinary human weaknesses puts aside his fears, doubts, selfishness and a host of other considerations to go inside a building that's on fire to rescue children because he knows nobody else is in a position to do it I'm going to say his heart is pretty devoid of evil. I'm not saying he's a perfect person, I'm just saying there are a LOT of good people and they are good by every metric except the "everyone is born in sin" nonsense.
And honestly if people mostly do good things, but sometimes harbor bad thoughts that they don't act on, at the end of the day actions are what they are judged by.
And that is why I'm not religious.
When a man with all of the ordinary human weaknesses puts aside his fears, doubts, selfishness and a host of other considerations to go inside a building that's on fire to rescue children because he knows nobody else is in a position to do it I'm going to say his heart is pretty devoid of evil. I'm not saying he's a perfect person, I'm just saying there are a LOT of good people and they are good by every metric except the "everyone is born in sin" nonsense.
And honestly if people mostly do good things, but sometimes harbor bad thoughts that they don't act on, at the end of the day actions are what they are judged by.
Of course it's all foolishness to you.
Do you hope there is a loving god, do you hope that there is ultimate justice, do hope that the grave your heading to isn't the end and do hope that your not an accident?
And that is why I'm not religious.
When a man with all of the ordinary human weaknesses puts aside his fears, doubts, selfishness and a host of other considerations to go inside a building that's on fire to rescue children because he knows nobody else is in a position to do it I'm going to say his heart is pretty devoid of evil. I'm not saying he's a perfect person, I'm just saying there are a LOT of good people and they are good by every metric except the "everyone is born in sin" nonsense.
And honestly if people mostly do good things, but sometimes harbor bad thoughts that they don't act on, at the end of the day actions are what they are judged by.Yet, this man could be a child molester when he is not fighting fires.
I might do a good deed, but if I hate doing it, does it matter?
People will judge us by our actions, but God will judge our hearts.
Of course the great news is, he provided a way to wash away all that evil in our hearts, and that is with the blood of his Son. Jesus is the guy who ran into the burning building and gave his life for humanity.
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I doubt seriously you live up to even your own self imposed standards of right and wrong let alone the commandments of a perfectly holy and righteous God.
I do my best to live according to values I deem important. Isn't always easy or even possible, but I do my best. I don't worry about the values of a deity I don't believe exists.
You asked me once why I believe all this because of idea of a god seemed so weak to you or something to that effect.
Just to clarify my position, I don't believe in the supernatural and as a consequence don't believe in Yahweh. I also don't believe the the Hebrew religion answers any of the big questions, it simply relocates them.
In the simplest terms, if everything needs a creator, then who created that creator and if a creator can be eternal and without beginning then so can the origins of the universe.
Additionally, if Yahweh is real, he knows that I base everything on evidence and it would take very little for me to accept as proof of his existence. So I am currently forced to conclude Yahweh, and any other creator simply doesn't exist or they are unwilling to afford me the scant amount of evidence I would need to save me from the damnation they created so they must not care at all.
Of course it's all foolishness to you.
Do you hope there is a loving god, do you hope that there is ultimate justice, do hope that the grave your heading to isn't the end and do hope that your not an accident?
I would like to think something else exists after we die, but given the lack of evidence either way I'm stuck at agnostic. I would like to think it's not all just for nothing and would love to think we see our loved ones after death, but again we can't prove anything either way so it remains just an idea.
But Pascal's Wager works both ways, if there is nothing then I will have lived my life with enough meaning and purpose as I reasonably can and that will have to suffice since I cannot change anything anyway. And if I die and I suddenly find myself in the presence of a given deity, well that's evidence and it's all I ever needed.
And if I end up in Gehenna for eternity I will take comfort in the fact that there is "something after death" even if I'm consigned to the low rent district in Israel and I can take comfort in the fact that my loved ones simply aren't "gone forever."
As for ultimate justice, if there is existence beyond death, I don't know that I will bring as much hatred with me. If everyone that was murdered went to a "next plane of existence", my anger at their destruction won't be as severe so long as the "next life" has some justice to it.
Yet, this man could be a child molester when he is not fighting fires.
I might do a good deed, but if I hate doing it, does it matter?
People will judge us by our actions, but God will judge our hearts.
Of course the great news is, he provided a way to wash away all that evil in our hearts, and that is with the blood of his Son. Jesus is the guy who ran into the burning building and gave his life for humanity.
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There were qualifiers in there that don't allow for the rescuer to be a pedophile. I didn't talk of somebody who did good on tuesday but raped kids on thursday.
And if a person HATES running into building that are on fire and rescuing children, then that person is even a better person than one who isn't afraid. Even though it might be the last thing they want to do, that they still do it anyone, just puts them higher on the good person ladder than they might have been otherwise.
It's a lot like the person who only does good because they fear divine judgement, in my opinion they aren't really a good person, they are afraid of getting caught. A person who does good things because it is just how you should live because it's right is far more impressive to me.
There were qualifiers in there that don't allow for the rescuer to be a pedophile. I didn't talk of somebody who did good on tuesday but raped kids on thursday.
And if a person HATES running into building that are on fire and rescuing children, then that person is even a better person than one who isn't afraid. Even though it might be the last thing they want to do, that they still do it anyone, just puts them higher on the good person ladder than they might have been otherwise.
It's a lot like the person who only does good because they fear divine judgement, in my opinion they aren't really a good person, they are afraid of getting caught. A person who does good things because it is just how you should live because it's right is far more impressive to me.We are probably getting off topic, but I reread your post, and did not see any qualifiers.
I am guessing you were poking fun of gehena/gey Hinnom, but if you look at the history of that area you would understand why what we call hell is described as that area.
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There were qualifiers in there that don't allow for the rescuer to be a pedophile. I didn't talk of somebody who did good on tuesday but raped kids on thursday.
And if a person HATES running into building that are on fire and rescuing children, then that person is even a better person than one who isn't afraid. Even though it might be the last thing they want to do, that they still do it anyone, just puts them higher on the good person ladder than they might have been otherwise.
It's a lot like the person who only does good because they fear divine judgement, in my opinion they aren't really a good person, they are afraid of getting caught. A person who does good things because it is just how you should live because it's right is far more impressive to me.Also, I agree with your last paragraph, and that is more along the line of what I was trying to communicate about people doing good deeds but hating it.
When I do good deeds, I don't do it out of fear. I do it out of Love for both my Father, and people.
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I do my best to live according to values I deem important. Isn't always easy or even possible, but I do my best. I don't worry about the values of a deity I don't believe exists.
So then it's true, you fail to live up to your own standards. But your doing your best, and Stalin was trying to live up to his standards and doing his best...really we're all just doing our best...ISIS, Hitler, Mao, Tom, Joe, Pete who ever. The propensity for human self-righteousness has no bounds...............God.
Just to clarify my position, I don't believe in the supernatural and as a consequence don't believe in Yahweh. I also don't believe the the Hebrew religion answers any of the big questions, it simply relocates them.
In the simplest terms, if everything needs a creator, then who created that creator and if a creator can be eternal and without beginning then so can the origins of the universe.
Additionally, if Yahweh is real, he knows that I base everything on evidence and it would take very little for me to accept as proof of his existence. So I am currently forced to conclude Yahweh, and any other creator simply doesn't exist or they are unwilling to afford me the scant amount of evidence I would need to save me from the damnation they created so they must not care at all.
And Christian theology has consistently (the Bible) and logically taught that God is the uncaused cause of everything. If the universe was eternal there would be an infinite amount of time to transverse to get to this moment and this conversation...it's logically impossible to transverse an infinite anything. Most scientists don't even believe the universe is eternal so they come up with yarns to explain it's beginnings.
And empiricism is logically fallacious. Can you touch empiricism? Are your senses a source of knowledge? Are they infallible or can you be fooled. Are you sure that electro/chemical reaction going on in your head is even remotely connected to what's real? Do you totally exclude supernaturalism or just not believe in it? Is there evidence for your belief in the necessity of evidence. Has God given you evidence but you just don't believe it or you missed it. But here's an evidence...it is IMPOSSIBLE for life as we know it to have come about by ANY known or imagine natural processes and that's not just Christians saying that. Consciousness can not arise from some rearranged chemicals, so how did it come to be? Has evolution selected religion for humanity, since the vast number of humanity, even today, are religious?
Here's an evidence for the truth of ORTHODOX Christianity. Out of ALL the religions of the earth now and in the past only OC has taught that man can do nothing to improve his standing with God, you can't make yourself even a tiny bit acceptable to God, you can't stop sinning, you can't do anything to save yourself. ALL other religions teach I can do the opposite, I can do something to improve my relationship with what ever god I'm dealing with. Christianity is ALL grace. The others are works.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-19-18, 18:13
So then it's true, you fail to live up to your own standards. But your doing your best, and Stalin was trying to live up to his standards and doing his best...really we're all just doing our best...ISIS, Hitler, Mao, Tom, Joe, Pete who ever. The propensity for human self-righteousness has no bounds...............God.
And Christian theology has consistently (the Bible) and logically taught that God is the uncaused cause of everything. If the universe was eternal there would be an infinite amount of time to transverse to get to this moment and this conversation...it's logically impossible to transverse an infinite anything. Most scientists don't even believe the universe is eternal so they come up with yarns to explain it's beginnings.
And empiricism is logically fallacious. Can you touch empiricism? Are your senses a source of knowledge? Are they infallible or can you be fooled. Are you sure that electro/chemical reaction going on in your head is even remotely connected to what's real? Do you totally exclude supernaturalism or just not believe in it? Is there evidence for your belief in the necessity of evidence. Has God given you evidence but you just don't believe it or you missed it. But here's an evidence...it is IMPOSSIBLE for life as we know it to have come about by ANY known or imagine natural processes and that's not just Christians saying that. Consciousness can not arise from some rearranged chemicals, so how did it come to be? Has evolution selected religion for humanity, since the vast number of humanity, even today, are religious?
Here's an evidence for the truth of ORTHODOX Christianity. Out of ALL the religions of the earth now and in the past only OC has taught that man can do nothing to improve his standing with God, you can't make yourself even a tiny bit acceptable to God, you can't stop sinning, you can't do anything to save yourself. ALL other religions teach I can do the opposite, I can do something to improve my relationship with what ever god I'm dealing with. Christianity is ALL grace. The others are works.
Oh mai....
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Also, I agree with your last paragraph, and that is more along the line of what I was trying to communicate about people doing good deeds but hating it.
When I do good deeds, I don't do it out of fear. I do it out of Love for both my Father, and people.
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I think you and I are one the same page. We just misunderstood the context of hate in the examples.
You were saying if a person does something good but they hate doing something good, then they aren't really good.
I was saying something more along the lines of hate related to fear. Meaning a person hates going into harms way, dealing with heights and things they hate but do it anyway because somebody needs help and that outweighs everything else to them, to me that is even more impressive.
So then it's true, you fail to live up to your own standards. But your doing your best, and Stalin was trying to live up to his standards and doing his best...really we're all just doing our best...ISIS, Hitler, Mao, Tom, Joe, Pete who ever. The propensity for human self-righteousness has no bounds...............God.
As politely as I am capable of, I do a lot better than Stalin, Hitler, ISIS, etc.
Sometimes I don't have the physical strength to do the good I want to do.
Sometimes I don't have the money to do the good I want to do.
Sometimes I don't have the time to do the good I want to do.
Because if I don't do the more important things first, I won't be able to do any of the things I may want to do. So no I'm not perfect and sometimes I am unable to live up to my ideals.
As a for example, I'd like to think I'd do anything for my dogs. But if I make myself homeless because I only take care of my dogs, then am I really helping my dogs still? So I have to do things to make sure I have a home, bills are paid and everyone has food. Because otherwise I'm not able to help anyone at that point.
And in closing, I will try and live up to my personal standards and just wish you a nice day and end this discussion with you.
We are probably getting off topic, but I reread your post, and did not see any qualifiers.
I am guessing you were poking fun of gehena/gey Hinnom, but if you look at the history of that area you would understand why what we call hell is described as that area.
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"I'm not saying he's a perfect person, I'm just saying there are a LOT of good people and they are good by every metric except the "everyone is born in sin" nonsense."
And when you get down to it, the poor murdered couple were just doing their best. But they're naive, and stupid...who gives a rats ass? That seems to be the sentiments of some here. I just prefer to say they were unbelieving and nobody deserves to be murdered at the hands of another.
Perhaps being a little older than many here, please let me add my perspective. Everyone is wired differently emotionally, socially and psychologically. Having traveled in central America, Africa, Southwest Asia, Europe, Scandinavia and the far East, I have come to the conclusion that the general population at large contains some level of mental illness, with quirks, phobias and selfish, petty behavior. Some people are stupid, some people are brilliant; some people are childlike in their world view, some people are like wild animals in how they operate. In a nutshell, the modern human is a flawed animal with varying degrees of mental stability and instability.
So a naive couple with a childlike world view gets eliminated by other flawed human animals. Sad, but no sadder than the flawed animal who killed his pregnant wife and two daughters in Colorado. Sheep and wolves, rabid wild-eyed animals or cold blooded killing machines like a shark...all humans.
Kind of a pessimistic view of the world. The only time I have seen people who seem to have things somewhat under control are Christians with their balance between the flawed human and the seeking of a closer experience with a supreme being. Unlike Buddhists and the avoidance of violence, the Christian can turn it on and off; living a peaceful life but retaining the ability of self-defense or going to war. Perhaps this hybrid state of humanity is the way to go?
So then it's true, you fail to live up to your own standards. But your doing your best, and Stalin was trying to live up to his standards and doing his best...really we're all just doing our best...ISIS, Hitler, Mao, Tom, Joe, Pete who ever. The propensity for human self-righteousness has no bounds...............God.
And Christian theology has consistently (the Bible) and logically taught that God is the uncaused cause of everything. If the universe was eternal there would be an infinite amount of time to transverse to get to this moment and this conversation...it's logically impossible to transverse an infinite anything. Most scientists don't even believe the universe is eternal so they come up with yarns to explain it's beginnings.
And empiricism is logically fallacious. Can you touch empiricism? Are your senses a source of knowledge? Are they infallible or can you be fooled. Are you sure that electro/chemical reaction going on in your head is even remotely connected to what's real? Do you totally exclude supernaturalism or just not believe in it? Is there evidence for your belief in the necessity of evidence. Has God given you evidence but you just don't believe it or you missed it. But here's an evidence...it is IMPOSSIBLE for life as we know it to have come about by ANY known or imagine natural processes and that's not just Christians saying that. Consciousness can not arise from some rearranged chemicals, so how did it come to be? Has evolution selected religion for humanity, since the vast number of humanity, even today, are religious?
Here's an evidence for the truth of ORTHODOX Christianity. Out of ALL the religions of the earth now and in the past only OC has taught that man can do nothing to improve his standing with God, you can't make yourself even a tiny bit acceptable to God, you can't stop sinning, you can't do anything to save yourself. ALL other religions teach I can do the opposite, I can do something to improve my relationship with what ever god I'm dealing with. Christianity is ALL grace. The others are works.
No.... this isn’t preachy at all.
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No.... this isn’t preachy at all.
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If a person wants to say people are basically good, I may just respond. I try to think like an actual Christian, but then I'm a total piker compared to Jesus. Let's get back to the really important stuff like who cares that these fools got waxed.
davidjinks
08-20-18, 13:34
Bottom line, most humans suck. Not all, but most.
You don’t need a PHD or a spirit walk to figure that shit out.
I liken this to the “Peace in our neighborhoods” type community outreach crap. There’s always an asshole ready to not be peaceful and either hurt or murder someone.
Americans on a tour of the world set out to prove that people are generally good get murdered in Turkmenistan. Stupid games
https://www.pluralist.com/posts/1824-millennial-couple-bikes-through-isis-territory-to-prove-humans-are-kind-and-gets-killed
Averageman
08-20-18, 14:01
If I had a Daughter and her Husband came to me explaining that they were going to tour the Middle East on Bicycles to promote Peace, Happiness and Understanding. Well someone's going to have to help me hide the body.
I can usually count on Women to underestimate the danger in stupid stuff and put themselves in some small percentage of risk, but this Really?
Too much weed, soy latte's and hours of MSNBC. That guy needed straightened out before going full on stupid like that.
Moose-Knuckle
08-20-18, 15:21
Nothing new, I just wished more people with their political ideology would go all in like they did . . .
From ten years ago:
Missing Italian Woman Artist Found Dead in Turkey
ANKARA, Turkey – Police have found the body of an Italian artist and activist who went missing while hitchhiking in Turkey dressed in a wedding gown to appeal for peace, officials said Saturday.
The woman was last seen on March 31 in the industrial city of Gebze while hitchhiking to Israel in the wedding dress as part of her "Brides on Tour" project aimed at pleading for peace in conflict areas.
Police found her naked body hidden in bushes in a forested area near Gebze, northwest Turkey,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/12/missing-italian-woman-artist-found-dead-in-turkey.html
Still not as bad as these loving parents, the old adage "Some people are so open minded their brains fall out" bares to mind . . .
Back story:
Amy Elizabeth Biehl (April 26, 1967 – August 25, 1993) was a white American graduate of Stanford University and an Anti-Apartheid activist in South Africa who was murdered by black Cape Town residents while a black mob shouted anti-white slurs. The four men convicted of her murder were released as part of the Truth and Reconciliation process.
As she drove a friend home to the township of Guguletu, outside Cape Town, on August 25, 1993, a black mob pulled her from the car and stabbed and stoned her to death.[2][3] The attack on the car driven by Amy Biehl was one of many incidents of general lawlessness on the NY1 road that afternoon. Bands of toyi-toying black youths threw stones at delivery vehicles and cars driven by white people. One delivery vehicle was toppled over and set alight and only the arrival of the police prevented more damage. There was evidence that some of the possessions of Amy Biehl and the passengers in her car were stolen.[4] According to Rex van Schalkwyk, in his 1998 book One Miracle is Not Enough: "Supporters of the three men accused of murdering [her] … burst out laughing in the public gallery of the Supreme Court today when a witness told how the battered woman groaned in pain." (pp. 188–89.) Four people were convicted of killing her.[5]:17–18 In 1998, all were pardoned by South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission when they stated that their actions had been politically motivated.[1]:71
Biehl's family supported the release of the men, and her father shook their hands, stating:
“ The most important vehicle of reconciliation is open and honest dialogue ... we are here to reconcile a human life which was taken without an opportunity for dialogue. When we are finished with this process we must move forward with linked arms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Biehl
An engaging woman of 65 with a blond bob and a warm smile, she has grown exceptionally close to her daughter's killers. "Easy and Ntobeko are fascinating and I really do love them," she says. "They have given me so much."
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-amy21-2008oct21-story.html#page=1
Nothing new, I just wished more people with their political ideology would go all in like they did . . .
From ten years ago:
Missing Italian Woman Artist Found Dead in Turkey
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/12/missing-italian-woman-artist-found-dead-in-turkey.html
Still not as bad as these loving parents, the old adage "Some people are so open minded their brains fall out" bares to mind . . .
Back story:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Biehl
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-amy21-2008oct21-story.html#page=1
That was actually hard to read. All kinds of Stockholm syndrome out there.
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