View Full Version : Ok HK, You win... Or, how I learned an even deeper truth.
Intransigent
08-17-18, 16:58
I was and have been for the last ten years a dedicated glockolero. I have multiple examples and holsters and I was carrying them and training weekly with them. My "carry/comp gun" box was checked... ...Until recently...
As I get older, I find that my value assessments are changing with new experiences/realizations. One being that a very switched on shooter that I am acquainted with recently shot through both of his ass cheeks on a timed drill from his holster, the other being that HK has reduced the price of the P30 to roughly Gen5 prices.
I had standardized around the Gen4 glocks, which functioned fine for me but around 5-6k started to kick brass at the face in two examples (2010-11 vintage)- replacing extractor parts made it better, but I had issues with the slide showing rust if I wore the gun and sweat on it at all. I adapted by simply giving a wipe after dry fire, but annoying as I have never seen a Gen2 or 3 rust. Period.
I found myself considering the pro's and con's of jumping on the G5 bandwagon, my chief interest was the new DLC coating on the slide. The lack of finger grooves was neutral in the consideration as the G4 grooves are fine and I already have a G2 17. Plus the whole "OMG NEW GEN" pricing increase. I realized that I was only interested in the G5 to correct issues I had had with the G4, none of which were really deal breakers.
Then I found out that one of my grail guns, the P30, only cost one Glock, instead of it's usual 1.5 - 2.0 Glock price tag. So I treated myself to a P30 V3 da/sa.
-THIS IS WHERE LEARNING OCCURRED-
First off, if any handgun has the absolute polar opposite of a Glock trigger, it's the HK. Instead of a short take up and short travel to a rolling break, the HK invites you to take a journey with it's trigger on a long and mushy road to a wall made of celery, then at long last, the break. After the shot, instead of a reset that you can feel with your eyes closed (more on that in a second) you have a weird sproingy reset that takes you past the break so you can have all the anticipations. However, even with it's mythically bad trigger, it is extremely accurate. It puts rounds where you are aiming, in a way that causes you to assess your technique to see if you can put that accuracy to use. In this process I have become a much better shooter.
See, I, like lots of Glock shooters, initially thought that the Glock had a steep learning curve, and it may depending on ones' background, but shooting the P30 I have realized that most of that last 20% I have been battling with the Glock to wring out perfomance-wise, have to do with the fact that the gun is providing so much tactile feedback with regards to trigger and orientation that I can almost shoot the gun by feel. Without being diligent to track the sights, I can count on a flyer or two when I mash the gas, or add the stress of a timer.
The P30 has no mercy for you if you are trying to shoot the gun by feel, it's almost like you have to ignore the trigger completely. Completely. Then the gun starts to sing. If you focus on the sight, magically the groups center immediately and I find myself taking shots with confidence that I would have some butterflies with the Glock. I realize, dear reader, that right now you are thinking "Who is this noob? Duh, of course you have to watch the front sight, pshaw" or "I wonder if this idiot has tried this with his Glock, he will abandon that over-complicated HK!"
Well, You're both right. I have realized that in fact the Glock has an expert's trigger, and one suited perfectly to reactionary shooting.
I started this journey because I really like thumbing the hammer before I point the muzzle at my femoral or some of my favorite anatomy in AIWB. I also really get a warm and fuzzy from the fact that I perceive HK's QA processes to be top notch and I really like that every gun leaves their factory zeroed.
I am a civilian CWP holder, I have to defend myself and my actions in case of a shooting. So I can appreciate a trigger that gives one time to be deliberate.
For anyone who is also considering a P30, go into it with eyes open. It's like driving a Porsche. You have to be on your game, but it performs spectacularly if you do your part. Get the LEM, no seriously, get the LEM and make it a TLG LEM. As long as I am pulling the trigger like it were a J-frame, and I'm in this zen headspace where I'm on the front sight like it's got tiny writing on it I can nail 20 yd headshots as fast as I can pull the trigger on an Standard IDPA target. I have been shooting the P30 for the last 8 months and the LEM exclusively for the last 6.
I just wanted to share my experiences with my own personal idiosyncrasies, hopefully it makes sense, thanks for listening to this ramble.
hotrodder636
08-17-18, 17:52
HKs have been the majoroty of my collection for 10 to 12 years and i can understand what you speak of in your Porsche analogy. I too own Glocks, Berettas and other but always take at least one HK to the range when I go.
I was and have been for the last ten years a dedicated glockolero. I have multiple examples and holsters and I was carrying them and training weekly with them. My "carry/comp gun" box was checked... ...Until recently...
As I get older, I find that my value assessments are changing with new experiences/realizations. One being that a very switched on shooter that I am acquainted with recently shot through both of his ass cheeks on a timed drill from his holster, the other being that HK has reduced the price of the P30 to roughly Gen5 prices.
I had standardized around the Gen4 glocks, which functioned fine for me but around 5-6k started to kick brass at the face in two examples (2010-11 vintage)- replacing extractor parts made it better, but I had issues with the slide showing rust if I wore the gun and sweat on it at all. I adapted by simply giving a wipe after dry fire, but annoying as I have never seen a Gen2 or 3 rust. Period.
I found myself considering the pro's and con's of jumping on the G5 bandwagon, my chief interest was the new DLC coating on the slide. The lack of finger grooves was neutral in the consideration as the G4 grooves are fine and I already have a G2 17. Plus the whole "OMG NEW GEN" pricing increase. I realized that I was only interested in the G5 to correct issues I had had with the G4, none of which were really deal breakers.
Then I found out that one of my grail guns, the P30, only cost one Glock, instead of it's usual 1.5 - 2.0 Glock price tag. So I treated myself to a P30 V3 da/sa.
-THIS IS WHERE LEARNING OCCURRED-
First off, if any handgun has the absolute polar opposite of a Glock trigger, it's the HK. Instead of a short take up and short travel to a rolling break, the HK invites you to take a journey with it's trigger on a long and mushy road to a wall made of celery, then at long last, the break. After the shot, instead of a reset that you can feel with your eyes closed (more on that in a second) you have a weird sproingy reset that takes you past the break so you can have all the anticipations. However, even with it's mythically bad trigger, it is extremely accurate. It puts rounds where you are aiming, in a way that causes you to assess your technique to see if you can put that accuracy to use. In this process I have become a much better shooter.
See, I, like lots of Glock shooters, initially thought that the Glock had a steep learning curve, and it may depending on ones' background, but shooting the P30 I have realized that most of that last 20% I have been battling with the Glock to wring out perfomance-wise, have to do with the fact that the gun is providing so much tactile feedback with regards to trigger and orientation that I can almost shoot the gun by feel. Without being diligent to track the sights, I can count on a flyer or two when I mash the gas, or add the stress of a timer.
The P30 has no mercy for you if you are trying to shoot the gun by feel, it's almost like you have to ignore the trigger completely. Completely. Then the gun starts to sing. If you focus on the sight, magically the groups center immediately and I find myself taking shots with confidence that I would have some butterflies with the Glock. I realize, dear reader, that right now you are thinking "Who is this noob? Duh, of course you have to watch the front sight, pshaw" or "I wonder if this idiot has tried this with his Glock, he will abandon that over-complicated HK!"
Well, You're both right. I have realized that in fact the Glock has an expert's trigger, and one suited perfectly to reactionary shooting.
I started this journey because I really like thumbing the hammer before I point the muzzle at my femoral or some of my favorite anatomy in AIWB. I also really get a warm and fuzzy from the fact that I perceive HK's QA processes to be top notch and I really like that every gun leaves their factory zeroed.
I am a civilian CWP holder, I have to defend myself and my actions in case of a shooting. So I can appreciate a trigger that gives one time to be deliberate.
For anyone who is also considering a P30, go into it with eyes open. It's like driving a Porsche. You have to be on your game, but it performs spectacularly if you do your part. Get the LEM, no seriously, get the LEM and make it a TLG LEM. As long as I am pulling the trigger like it were a J-frame, and I'm in this zen headspace where I'm on the front sight like it's got tiny writing on it I can nail 20 yd headshots as fast as I can pull the trigger on an Standard IDPA target. I have been shooting the P30 for the last 8 months and the LEM exclusively for the last 6.
I just wanted to share my experiences with my own personal idiosyncrasies, hopefully it makes sense, thanks for listening to this ramble.
Beleive me, I get it.. I went to DA/SA a couple years ago, mainly because I feel that DA/SA guns offer a level of saftey that striker fired, especially fully tensioned striker fired guns (Walther PPQ, HK VP9) can't offer. After shooting DA/SA pistols for awhile (6-8 months) I began to wonder if I could shoot a LEM again, I had P-2000 in LEM before and had done horribly with it. I was also mainly shooting Glocks at the time, and clearly, the two didn't mix for me..I can only guess that I had'nt learned the basic of shooting a DA/SA pistol..trigger control...
About a year ago,I found a HK USPc with a LEM trigger (with ambi saftey levers, that's odd..) in 9mm, NIB, in the LGS I shop at, in the used counter.. The price was cheap, $400..The story behind it was interesting..this was part of a contract that HK had made for somebody, and then they didn't for some reason, take delievery.. supposedly, HK sold them (around 1500 pistols? I don't know) to a German wholesaler, who in turn, sold them to an American wholesaler, who brought them into the U.S. and put a importers mark on the right side of the slide..The pistol came with a HK factory test target, (Hk stopped doing this to pistols being shipped to the U.S. years ago) so, no doubt it was intended to go somewhere else, the test target was serial numbered to the pistol,and was shot at 15m, and had 5 rnds into a knot hole in the bull, measuring about 1 1/4" if this was shot offhand, this guy is good...
I took it out to the range with the idea that if I could'nt shoot it well I'd simply convert it to one of the DA/SA variants.. I did a little dry firing and loaded the mags up, much to my suprise on the second mag this thing was shooting great! I put about 300rnds through it that day, and by the end of the day, I was impressed!!! I just found my next carry pistol. I was shooting this waaay better than any of my DA/SA pistols.Why exactly I clicked with this pistol at this point in time, I can only guess, I figure shooting DA/SA pistols only the previous 6-8months probably helped more than I know. I figure I finally learned trigger control, and this allowed me to advance to something like a LEM.. I know the LEM isn't for everybody, but if you can get on to it, it really is an excellant system... If I stumble across another one of these at the right price, I'm buying..
Welcome the hk world I’ve got atleast 5 hk handguns, they are they post reliable weapons you’ll ever find. The hkpro forum could teach you a lot too
What you mentioned about focusing on the sight and ignoring the trigger reflects my experience as well. While the LEM allows for quick follow-ups, the reset is so subtle you almost have to just memorize the reset distance. Of my Shield, Glocks, and HKs, the LEM probably takes the most trigger time to become consistent with. The biggest frustration was trying to be both accurate AND fast with the strings of fire.
When I go to requal, it becomes glaringly obvious who has been practicing between sessions.
Where the design shines is, as you mentioned, as a carry gun. There’s definitely something re-assuring being able to put your thumb on the hammer when holstering. I guess you could do the same on the draw as well but that would be awkward IMo.
Rented a P30 recently. Good gun. Shot with my P228 for the most part, The paddle and hooked trigger combine to rub my finger a bit. But I could live with it. DA travel is a tad long but shoots well. Don’t want LEM. I do think paddles put buttons in the dirt. Overall I don’t get the trigger hate on HK.
HKmasterrace
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BrigandTwoFour
08-18-18, 10:17
I find the number of people talking about going back to DA/SA lately interesting. I did the same, but from an FNS-9 to a CZ P07.
The extra reassurance of the hammer is nice to have. Mastering the DA takes more work on fundamentals, but it makes you a better overall shooter.
Intransigent
08-18-18, 10:58
I find the number of people talking about going back to DA/SA lately interesting. I did the same, but from an FNS-9 to a CZ P07.
The extra reassurance of the hammer is nice to have. Mastering the DA takes more work on fundamentals, but it makes you a better overall shooter.
It’s probably just a hipster reaction to the conventional wisdom that strikers > every other type. ;)
However, I get to shoot with some BTDT types for whom things like “shootability” don’t enter into their calculation, watching them pick up famously bad trigger systems and run them as well as tuned and slicked up race guns really drives home the ole “Indian not the arrow” trope. Which illustrates for me as a shooter what gaps I let equipment fill in my skill set. It all kind of started when I stopped putting any kind of go fast parts in a Glock and just decided to shoot them stock, this has progressed into a desire to define universal traits for accurate and fast shooting. Really this whole thing is just a case of everything new is well forgotten old, as a generation of striker fired adepts leave the nest and start to explore gear selection to optimize for different missions/mitigate drawbacks. I’m still getting crushed on split times vs a Glock but I’m experienced enough to know that a lethal force encounter entails a whole lot more than the actual gun fight, so that parameter is not the only one to optimize for.
BrigandTwoFour
08-18-18, 14:04
Oh yeah, totally on board with that.
I think most people reach a similar phase eventually. I’ve circled back to recommending basic AR configurations rather than a lot of go fast parts for the same reason. You eventually realize substituting expensive parts for solid fundamentals only gets you so far.
Phillygunguy
08-19-18, 00:21
I'm in agreement with the P30
I have been a glock shooter for a while had a PPQ, and own a vp9. I bought a P30 lem back in 2012. I have always been a striker fire guy but the P30 always called me back. At the time I had too many ejection issues with glock I went with the P30. I also sold one of my VP9s to pick up a second P30. I think the LEM is tough trigger but can be learned. The problem is most shooters don't want to put the time in to learn it. They think striker fire is the be all, end all. It's not. The P30 is a great pistol and i think it'sunderrated too.
eightmillimeter
08-19-18, 10:51
There is nothing I can think of that would make any D/SA irrelevant today vs any time in the last 70 years. It seems people are more likely to learn to shoot on fixed DA strikers just because of selection, price, and availability. However, it seems like a sigificant portion of people who become “shooters” round out their options with either D/SA or SAO guns for different reasons. I’ve carried Glocks or M&P’s for a very long time and finally started dabbling in D/SA. I looked very long at the P30 but ended up with a P-07 and now settled on a PCR. It is easily my favorite by a wide margin. Hammer guns are nice to have sometimes, especially if you CCW in anything other than 4:00 IWB.
Glad you found something you like. I was and still am a big 1911 fan. I have shot countless thousands of rounds through my Colt Series 70 and it still is accurate beyond my ability to shoot it. It feeds anything and I mean a-ny-thing, even empty cases, without any problems (yes, I did polish the feed ramp and barrel throat to achieve that). I have been a happy camper for 30+ years with it, and had NO intention whatsoever of buying another .45.
Then I took a look at HK stuff. Everything I read looked pretty good. I liked the looks of the gun, the specs, and most comments on them were favorable to glowing, but I had never handled one. So, went to a gun show and picked up two different but very similar HKs, the HK 45 and the HK 45 Compact. Just by the way they felt in my hand, I HAD to have one. Long story short, I got a 45C and love it. It does NOT feed empty cases, but since I am not going to shoot wad-cutters, it doesn't matter. It does handle LSWC and jacketed everything.
Glad to hear you are happy with the ruggedness of your pistol.
Business_Casual
08-19-18, 20:59
Just curious, but is this revelation with respect to target shooting on a square range with zero added stress?
Would it change if you had to take those shots at night in the rain while a guy who just jumped off a moped wearing a helmet is trying to kill you and take your car with your infant daughter in the back seat?
beschatten
08-20-18, 05:48
Glad you found something you like. I was and still am a big 1911 fan. I have shot countless thousands of rounds through my Colt Series 70 and it still is accurate beyond my ability to shoot it. It feeds anything and I mean a-ny-thing, even empty cases, without any problems (yes, I did polish the feed ramp and barrel throat to achieve that). I have been a happy camper for 30+ years with it, and had NO intention whatsoever of buying another .45.
Then I took a look at HK stuff. Everything I read looked pretty good. I liked the looks of the gun, the specs, and most comments on them were favorable to glowing, but I had never handled one. So, went to a gun show and picked up two different but very similar HKs, the HK 45 and the HK 45 Compact. Just by the way they felt in my hand, I HAD to have one. Long story short, I got a 45C and love it. It does NOT feed empty cases, but since I am not going to shoot wad-cutters, it doesn't matter. It does handle LSWC and jacketed everything.
Glad to hear you are happy with the ruggedness of your pistol.
Me too. I spent the past 8 years or so on 1911s only. I am looking hard at those marked down USPs or P30s in 9mm though - it just makes more sense since I'm a lefty, I have gorilla hands, and I am also sick enough to want to learn something more difficult.
Intransigent
08-20-18, 06:08
Just curious, but is this revelation with respect to target shooting on a square range with zero added stress?
Would it change if you had to take those shots at night in the rain while a guy who just jumped off a moped wearing a helmet is trying to kill you and take your car with your infant daughter in the back seat?
Great questions:
A) It’s precisely the fact that when I mash the gas under pressure my technique falls apart that is the point of this thread. I don’t really “Target” shoot. The only revelation that I’ve had is that my technique is shitty, come to by putting myself on the clock, while moving, etc...
B) Would what change? My gear selection? No, but this is not so much a thread about hardware, as it’s about software. I think I am picking up what you are putting down with that question.
TL;DR
Training matters, the gun is irrelevant and presents a problem solving opportunity to adapt to the mission set. Pressure makes the wheels come off and learning occurs. In this case, made glaringly apparent by a change in system that was less forgiving of the poor technique I had adopted.
Adrenaline_6
08-20-18, 08:22
Welcome to the HK world. I too have a P30 (da/sa). I agree, shoot it enough, it teaches you great trigger discipline to the point you don't really have to think about trigger discipline. In the end, it helps you shoot everything pretty well. In the beginning though, for all but the experienced shooter, it is a pretty humbling experience.
Many will blame the gun and it's trigger when it really is the shooter.
The older I get, the more I appreciate my Glocks. Especially when I'm working on another make. That said, I too am a Glockophile and the P30 long has peaked my interest. I'm leery when I hear comments about the LEM trigger being tough to learn. How so? I've only read positives on the LEM module thus far.
Im currently running my second P30, this one an LEM. I had a P30S v3, but 2 of my other HK's(HK45C and HK45) were LEM triggers so my P30(which I shoot the most of any handgun I own) always felt odd. Well the S model is hard to convert to V1 LEM. Just so happens my dad is a lefty, shot the P30S and loved it so made him a good deal and I bought a new P30 V1 LEM.
Yes the trigger takes some getting used to, but once you are used to it, 3x5 note cards at 15+ yards are easy to hammer. Guys at the range make fun of my note card targets until they see me putting rounds into them while they can barely hit an 11x17 shoot-n-see target.
Is the lem a long stroke like da/sa? Long reset? Defenitely gonna finger one at LGS before ordering.
Intransigent
08-21-18, 08:52
I read up on LEM quite a bit, I set my LEM up like Todd Green’s with a heavy trigger return spring and a hammer spring from the DA/SA pistol. This makes the wall easier to roll through, and it lends itself to being shot like a very smooth DA revolver. It’s a set up that may not be as blistering fast as the Glock, but capable of much better precision at speed. For me. Ymmv etc...
BrigandTwoFour
08-21-18, 09:30
Just curious, but is this revelation with respect to target shooting on a square range with zero added stress?
Would it change if you had to take those shots at night in the rain while a guy who just jumped off a moped wearing a helmet is trying to kill you and take your car with your infant daughter in the back seat?
This sounds like a Glock marketing commercial.
I get it, Glock has a low barrier to entry. The truth is that it all comes down to how much you’re willing to practice. Mastering a DA trigger takes more work, but you also have to consider what you gain from becoming proficient at it.
The older I get, the more I appreciate my Glocks. Especially when I'm working on another make. That said, I too am a Glockophile and the P30 long has peaked my interest. I'm leery when I hear comments about the LEM trigger being tough to learn. How so? I've only read positives on the LEM module thus far.
It's hard to discribe over the internet..if you can, try one before buying, and by that I mean shoot some rounds through one first, to get an actual feel for it..I took me awhile to learn the LEM trigger, only because I was at the time still dabbling with striker fired pistols. When I decided to go full in with DA/SA, and take the time to learn the DA/SA trigger, and get some time on it, only then was I able to shoot the LEM well, but YMMV, The LEM trigger is one of those that you'll either love, or hate, there dosen't seem to be much of an in between.. But, by all means if you can, rent, beg, or borrow one to try first... For use in a CCW, the LEM is probably one of the better triggers out there, granted you'll probably be slower with it against the clock, than you are with a striker fired pistol, but, running against the clock was'nt what it's designed for.
Business_Casual
08-21-18, 18:22
Mastering a DA trigger takes more work, but you also have to consider what you gain from becoming proficient at it.
I’m curious what tangible gain is had?
I had to work hard(1000rds) at the LEM trigger, coming from GlockFu shooting. When I pick up a striker, it seems easier, as the LEM will expose some bad shooting habits and theoretically, would make shooting strikers and other configurations, easier.
Good shooters, in my experience. Need a couple of mags behind a LEM to "get it", but are often confused by the internet myths, surrounding the LEM after shooting one.
BrigandTwoFour
08-21-18, 20:27
I’m curious what tangible gain is had?
That depends entirely on your usage.
I would argue that a better overall understanding of trigger control and pistol marksmanship is a benefit. What happens if you have to use something other than a Glock?
I've spent quite a bit of time with a LEM P2000. It's a diificult trigger to shoot fast. It's a difficult trigger to manage in all repects, except it is easy to get off of and it's a good trigger for holding people at gun point.
It's simple as in no decocker or safety, and same pull every time.
It's nothing like a revolver. It has a long take up, a wall, a somewhat mushy break (along with the trigger flexing), a good bit of overtravel, a long soft reset to about halfway through the take up.
I see no value in training with guns that have trash triggers or trash qualities in general unless mandatory for employment.
I've spent quite a bit of time with a LEM P2000. It's a diificult trigger to shoot fast. It's a difficult trigger to manage in all repects, except it is easy to get off of and it's a good trigger for holding people at gun point.
It's simple as in no decocker or safety, and same pull every time.
It's nothing like a revolver. It has a long take up, a wall, a somewhat mushy break (along with the trigger flexing), a good bit of overtravel, a long soft reset to about halfway through the take up.
I see no value in training with guns that have trash triggers or trash qualities in general unless mandatory for employment.
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm not paying a premium for expensive mags and bad triggers. Like I said, the older I get, the more I appreciate my Glocks.
I'm not paying a premium for expensive mags and bad triggers.
Becouse one guy wrote that he can't shoot fast and/or accurately with LEM tirgger. Totally reasonable ;)
So to balance that here is one guy that can shoot (reasonably) fast and accurately with 6bls LEM trigger.
https://youtu.be/tDXNwRUwC2I
Here's another vote for the LEM trigger. What little time I had with one I liked much better than a Glock trigger. For one thing I wasn't pulling my shots left like I do with Glocks and I could leave the rear sight centered in the dovetail. I like DA triggers in general, Berettas, DA revolvers, etc. and the LEM feels very close to those. I keep hoping to find a LEM HK in the used cabinet at one of my LGS's. USP, P2000, P30 whatever. The VP9 doesn't do much for me.
The shooting left with a Glock isn't so much the trigger as it is the way a hand interacts with the frame. The web of the hand rides much higher than the trigger and with the frame being a lot wider than the trigger it can be very difficult not to disrupt the sight picture as the trigger finger scrubs the frame through the trigger press.
The LEM trigger is perfectly workable but performance compared by common metrics usually leave people unsatisfied. Some are happy with their performance and stay with the trigger because of it's benefits that aren't performance related.
Business_Casual
08-22-18, 16:56
What happens if you have to use something other than a Glock?
So, if I understand you correctly, in an end-of-the-world scenario, the world’s most ubiquitous handgun, Glock, will not be available, but the HK LEM is going to be lying in the streets?
So, if I understand you correctly, in an end-of-the-world scenario, the world’s most ubiquitous handgun, Glock, will not be available, but the HK LEM is going to be lying in the streets?
I guess we just roll over and die, since well bever be able to make a hit... or even figure out how it works.
:alcoholic:
I guess we just roll over and die, since well bever be able to make a hit... or even figure out how it works.
:alcoholic:If I can't find a Glock, I think I would prefer death. It sounds like a horrible world.
I have never shot an LEM though. I shot a DAO p250 and hated it. The only Da/Sa gun I have ever really liked wad the p07, but even that I sold, and regret.
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The heavy LEM as on all the border patrol P2000s is sort of like a long stroke Glock trigger. It's not radically different, your finger moves a lot more to do the same thing.
shadowrider
08-23-18, 00:13
I traded into a P30 V3 for the same reasons as the O/P and ironically I traded a G34 MOS. AIWB just seems a better idea with a hammer fired gun. Don't get me wrong, I still will AIWB striker fired guns, but that and the whole defensive use scenario just seems a better choice, I guess I'm maturing in my CCW life.
But unlike the O/P I can't say I immediately became a better shooter. I have shot pretty extensively tuned DA revolvers, then put them down for a good long time before picking up the P30. I still prefer the DA trigger stroke but I still need to "brush up" on it before carrying it, but I'll get there. The HK accuracy and reliability really is all that I always heard it was. Why did I ever wait so long to give it a try? I have a safe full of M&Ps that'll mostly be replaced with H&Ks eventually. I'll buy the P30L LEM or light LEM the first time I come across one since the prices have gotten down to being reasonable now.
I dry fired an HK with the LEM trigger and it felt just like the trigger of an HK VP70z. That is to say, the trigger felt like a staplegun.
I dry fired an HK with the LEM trigger and it felt just like the trigger of an HK VP70z. That is to say, the trigger felt like a staplegun.
@MistWolf Sounds like you fired it in DA mode, that is even heavier than in SA/DA HKs, because LEM uses stronger hammer spring.
LEM is not DAO trigger, it is more like long SA with DA capability. When you rack the slide, you fully compress hammer spping by striker that is nested inside hammer. Hammer itself follows slide forward and rests on hammer safety catch. When you pull the trigger in first stage you only bring hammer back, but do not compress hammer spring. Resistance on this stage comes from trigger return spring. This is how different weight LEMs are possible - by different power trigger return springs. This allows so called Match-LEM hybrid to be sub 4lb trigger, personally I prefer medium power TRS for 5.5-6lb trigger with fast reset. At the end of this take-up stage trigger deactivates firing pin safety (you can feel it as slight increase in resistance), then you hit "wall". Hammer is in rear and trigger bar now releases sear that holds sticker (or cocking piece as HK calls it). It rotates inside hammer and gives it full hammer spring energy. BOOM! When slide cycles hammer cocks striker and if you keep trigger back hammer stays in the rear. As you release trigger, you do not need to release it forward all the way. Actually you need to release it only to point when firing pin safety deactivation starts and you can feel reset click. You can either pull back again for next shot or fully release trigger to make hammer rest forward and gun is on "safe".
So when you want to dryfire LEM, test it like you would test SA trigger, not like DAO trigger. LEM works in DA (there are even factory variants that allow to de-cock striker without pulling a trigger), but it is not intended to use as DA trigger.
BrigandTwoFour
08-23-18, 05:15
So, if I understand you correctly, in an end-of-the-world scenario, the world’s most ubiquitous handgun, Glock, will not be available, but the HK LEM is going to be lying in the streets?
That’s what you took away from what I said?
Ok, fine. Enjoy your Glocks and telling everyone else to stop liking things you don’t like.
Business_Casual
08-23-18, 05:32
That’s what you took away from what I said?
Ok, fine. Enjoy your Glocks and telling everyone else to stop liking things you don’t like.
Calm down, it was just a joke. I’ve carried and shot DA/SA and single action. I’ve owned a LEM in an HK, and I had an USP.
I often set up “found gun” drills when I practice with others, so relax.
There’s just a lot more relevant things to be worked on with respect to using a pistol than the trigger, IMO. I don’t even like the Glock trigger. It pinches and it is spongy. But that’s not the reason to have a Glock. Again, IMO.
Plus, WTAF? Where did I tell anyone to do anything? I just asked a question.
Business_Casual
08-23-18, 05:36
If I can't find a Glock, I think I would prefer death. It sounds like a horrible world.
I have never shot an LEM though. I shot a DAO p250 and hated it. The only Da/Sa gun I have ever really liked wad the p07, but even that I sold, and regret.
Sent from my SM-S327VL using Tapatalk
I had a P07. The low-bore axis and price point makes that a very viable heater, IMO. Same issues though - aftermarket and cheap magazines is dominated by Glock.
I prefer my HK Lite LEMs....my P30 is the favorite with the USP a close second..
I dry fired an HK with the LEM trigger and it felt just like the trigger of an HK VP70z. That is to say, the trigger felt like a staplegun.
Come on. It felt just like the 70? I own a 70 and the trigger pull is close to 12lbs.
Regular LEM is about 6-7lbs and you can get Light LEM down to 5lbs.
I understand if you don't like LEM, but that is a pretty erroneous statement about LEM.
Did you actually rack the slide and than pull the trigger or just pulled the trigger one time and made a call on its suckiness?
For me, the HK journey was 1911-> M&P with Apex parts -> VP9.
I find the VP9 checks all boxes for my needs/wants. It's singular design issue problem is it's easy to ride the slide stop and get a failure to lock back on the last rnd. Not a deal breaker for me, but it was for some. I wish they made an after market slide stop that would prevent that issue. From tricked out 1911s to a Vp9 where i used a perm marker to black out the rear dots in the site, to give the site picture I like.
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