View Full Version : Are DPMS/RRA really that bad?
Yes I know this has probably been covered numerous times. But I hope this isn't quite the same.
I used to work in firearms Wholesale. We were a Good sized RRA and DPMS distributor. They always sold well with DPMS going to mainly individuals and dealers catering to individuals while RRA went to more officers.
The officers seemed more than willing to trust their life to a RRA rifle. I have read the chart and found it interesting. Many of the things that are listed as negatives seem almost petty though. I mean does it really matter if there is no park under the FSB or if the pins are tapered? (By the way I am serious if it is important I would love to know why)
Other things I agree with people on of course. An improperly staked gas key could mean a weapon malfunction at the worst possible moment.
I guess what I am getting at is this. For the average Arm Chair commando does it matter? And for officers is there a huge difference between some of the "better" brands. I would never trust any firearm with my life before I have stripped it down and checked everything anyway.
Rock River Guns seem to be tight and reliable. What makes them unacceptable to so many people?
Oh and just for the record. Yes I own DPMS and RRA rifles. I am not saying or asking if they are the best, I know they arn't I guess I am asking if the difference is that great.
Some of those things may seem petty, but they all add up when you start stacking up the corner cutting.
Taper pins for example, help pull the FSB down onto the barrel and create a better gas seal between the port and the FSB. That's a somewhat important feature to me.
... all of these things add up.
Taper pins for example, help pull the FSB down onto the barrel and create a better gas seal between the port and the FSB. That's a somewhat important feature to me.
... all of these things add up.
And this is why I ask :)
What makes them unacceptable is claiming "mil-spec" on their weapons after they cut all the corners an "armchair commando" wont notice.
My fist AR was a Rock River...it was also my last. I only keep it to serve as a way of cautioning others who are not willing to spend another $200 and get a Colt.
I'll be selling the Upper (which started life as an A3, then the feed ramps are cut with a dremel tool so they can save 5$ on every upper) soon.
LEO also trust their lives to Ford & GM.I'd bet they're not at the top of "the chart " either..
Go figure..
I just recently picked up a DPMS, shot a little under 1000 rds, wolf, brown bear ammo, functioned w/o any hiccups. Picked it up for under $800. No complaints so far.
Ask Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Tim Lau, Bill Jeans, or anyone else who teaches a lot and sees hundreds of thousands of rounds a year going downrange from AR15s and they'll tell you that while anyone can put out a lemon, some brands are WAY better and WAY worse than others.
The typical gun owner (hobbyist) rarely fires their weapon. When one actually practices enough to develop skill to a high degree, you see issues that the hobbyist won't.
I had two guys who wanted to use RRA and DMPS, respectively, for their duty guns.
The RRA had factory dremeled feed ramps in the receiver, cut post-anodizing, and the feed ramp on one side did not line up with the feed ramp in the barrel extension. It was FAR from lining up. Staking on the carrier key was minimal.
It also had their two stage trigger, which consistently caused light strikes on S&B and Federal ammo.
The DMPS would not make it through a single mag w/o choking. Inspection found no evidence of any attempt to stake the carrier key. The castle nut also had no staking, and was coming loose.
There were numerous other issues with both carbines that can also affect reliability, such as using rifle extractor spring inserts instead of the correct carbine inserts, .223 chambers instead of 5.56, and all the other things that "the chart" notes.
glockshooter
10-28-08, 20:11
Here is the best way I can answer your question. RRA and DPMS are good guns, but there are better out there. Do LMT, Colt , Sabre, and Noveske have better component? Yes. Does that mean that your RRA/ DPMS will be a turd? No. The biggest difference as I see it is that with the better parts and pieces, your rifle is less likely to have problems. Keep in mind that just because you have a RRA/ DPMS does not mean you are going to have problems, it just means that you are more likely to have problems than someone that has a LMT, Colt, Sabre, or Noveske. However that does not mean that someone with a LMT, Colt, Sabre, or Noveske are impervious to their rifles going down? No.
I have a Sabre that is an awesome weapon, and I also have a Bushmaster that has been awesome. My Bushmaster has had thousands of hard use rounds through it. It has been through a bunch of classes and I hardly ever clean it. Has it ever malfuctioned? Yes. And for that matter I am willing to bet, that there are very few people that can honestly say their LMT, Colt , Sabre, or Noveske (that has the same type of use as my bushmaster) has never malfuctioned. I am sure the people that say there guns, have never malfuctioned have had issues that they decided happened because of a magazine or ammo problem, so my justification for the malfuctions with my bushmaster is the frangible ammo my department uses on our no-tox range.
Matt
RogerinTPA
10-28-08, 21:12
Yes I know this has probably been covered numerous times. But I hope this isn't quite the same.
I used to work in firearms Wholesale. We were a Good sized RRA and DPMS distributor. They always sold well with DPMS going to mainly individuals and dealers catering to individuals while RRA went to more officers.
The officers seemed more than willing to trust their life to a RRA rifle. I have read the chart and found it interesting. Many of the things that are listed as negatives seem almost petty though. I mean does it really matter if there is no park under the FSB or if the pins are tapered? (By the way I am serious if it is important I would love to know why)
Other things I agree with people on of course. An improperly staked gas key could mean a weapon malfunction at the worst possible moment.
I guess what I am getting at is this. For the average Arm Chair commando does it matter? And for officers is there a huge difference between some of the "better" brands. I would never trust any firearm with my life before I have stripped it down and checked everything anyway.
Rock River Guns seem to be tight and reliable. What makes them unacceptable to so many people?
Oh and just for the record. Yes I own DPMS and RRA rifles. I am not saying or asking if they are the best, I know they arn't I guess I am asking if the difference is that great.
Yes....unless the rifle will basically be a safe queen and occasionally shot a few times a year. There are quite a few knowledge based threads in the AR general discussion section that address all the substandard QC issues with RRA, Stag, Bushmasters, DPMS, ect...and what to do if you got one to bring it back up to speed and add more reliability. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Alright and please I don't want to stir stuff up. I really wanted to know what the practical differences are.
What is the issue with Bushmasters? I have a chance to pick up a Bushmaster M4 for under 900. It is Chrome lined, appeared to have real Feed ramps, etc . What should I watch for and is a Bushmaster something I should or should not trust my life to? Why/Why not?
Alright and please I don't want to stir stuff up. I really wanted to know what the practical differences are.
What is the issue with Bushmasters? I have a chance to pick up a Bushmaster M4 for under 900. It is Chrome lined, appeared to have real Feed ramps, etc . What should I watch for and is a Bushmaster something I should or should not trust my life to? Why/Why not?
Bushmaster manufactured about 63,000 rifles in 2006. LMT, for instance, manufactured about 1,100. CMMG made about 2,100. Colt Defense made 8,500. POF: 1,007. Noveske: 43.
Obviously some of these haven't been around as long, and these numbers will go up in 07 and 08, but the point is:
Bushmaster is the McDonalds of AR15s.
Do you like McDonalds?
Umm.. Seriously I want to know what the problem is with Bushmaster. And I don't equate making more rifles with being bad.
SwatDawg15
10-29-08, 00:07
Alright and please I don't want to stir stuff up. I really wanted to know what the practical differences are.
What is the issue with Bushmasters? I have a chance to pick up a Bushmaster M4 for under 900. It is Chrome lined, appeared to have real Feed ramps, etc . What should I watch for and is a Bushmaster something I should or should not trust my life to? Why/Why not?
Every single thing your asking is in the knowlage base threads... take some time to read them and it will answer all your questions. There are good pictures and step by step procedures incase you want to do some upgrading... Get to reading them and you will understand the chart, ect a whole lot better.
Umm.. Seriously I want to know what the problem is with Bushmaster. And I don't equate making more rifles with being bad.
They have poor QC. You might get a good rifle, you might not. They generally fail to properly steak their carrier keys and castle nuts, everything is loose to compensate for error, there are countless testimonials of unhappy customers with various complaints, i believe they use 4140 barrels (someone correct me if I'm wrong), they only got a one year warranty- that says enough right there.
And keep your hammer, 'cause you won't be driving any tacks with it.
Numbers alone don't mean much.
However, IIRC Colt builds close to 10k M4s each month. All must be produced to standards, and the Gov't has inspectors ensure they meet those standards.
Others have no standard to meet, and are not built IAW the TDP.
These are things like correct staking to ensure carrier key bolts and castle nuts don't come loose, actual 5.56 NATO chambers, H buffers to reduce bolt bounce, correctly done M4 feed ramps, carbine extractor springs and inserts instead of rifle extractor springs and inserts, proof testing and MP inspecting each and every barrel, barrel extension and bolt.
All the above are things that affect reliability and durability, and are reasons why instructors who see a lot of rounds fired see some brands that consistently work, and some that consistently have problems.
Ask Pat Rogers about his book with all the photos of broken bushmasters ("graveyard of bushwackers").
I'd tell you what LAV said about Bushy, RRA, DPMS when I asked him in person (those who have spent any time around him will know), but you should take a class from him and ask him yourself.
Again, take a look at the chart and the base knowledge threads.
If you want to stack the odds in your favor, get a Colt, LMT, or Noveske. The Smiths have been pretty good, too.
Yes I know this has probably been covered numerous times. But I hope this isn't quite the same.
I used to work in firearms Wholesale. We were a Good sized RRA and DPMS distributor. They always sold well with DPMS going to mainly individuals and dealers catering to individuals while RRA went to more officers.
These brands sell well (no doubt). So does McDonalds food.
The officers seemed more than willing to trust their life to a RRA rifle. I have read the chart and found it interesting. Many of the things that are listed as negatives seem almost petty though. I mean does it really matter if there is no park under the FSB or if the pins are tapered? (By the way I am serious if it is important I would love to know why)
Most police officers know zero about what makes a quality AR. You do not understand what the chart is saying. The chart is basically just advising what the US military calls out on a fighting weapon. If you do not want taper pins, that is fine.
Other things I agree with people on of course. An improperly staked gas key could mean a weapon malfunction at the worst possible moment.
I guess what I am getting at is this. For the average Arm Chair commando does it matter? And for officers is there a huge difference between some of the "better" brands. I would never trust any firearm with my life before I have stripped it down and checked everything anyway.
Maybe not. Every AR owner should view their AR is a defensive tool that they may have to defend their life with.
Rock River Guns seem to be tight and reliable. What makes them unacceptable to so many people?
Tight guns can actually be a negative (as the AR was made to run somewhat loose). RRA and reliability are not two words that I would ever put together.
Oh and just for the record. Yes I own DPMS and RRA rifles. I am not saying or asking if they are the best, I know they arn't I guess I am asking if the difference is that great.
Yes, the difference between say a Colt, Noveske, LMT, etc is great.
C4
Alright and please I don't want to stir stuff up. I really wanted to know what the practical differences are.
What is the issue with Bushmasters? I have a chance to pick up a Bushmaster M4 for under 900. It is Chrome lined, appeared to have real Feed ramps, etc . What should I watch for and is a Bushmaster something I should or should not trust my life to? Why/Why not?
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532
Next question.
C4
Umm.. Seriously I want to know what the problem is with Bushmaster. And I don't equate making more rifles with being bad.
You should. The more rifles that go out the door means that the manufacturer is more willing to accept parts from anywhere and QC becomes less and less.
C4
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