View Full Version : BCM Fit and finish question
Hello all.
I am trying to decide between a Daniel Defense M4 V7 LW or SLW, a Colt CCU and a BCM Recce 16" for my first AR.
I got to look at a DD and wow the fit and finish is outstanding. Very nicely made. Looks absolutely beautiful compared to the Colt CCU which I looked at a new in box and it was filled with scratches and blemishes.
Any BCM owners out there that can chip me how their brand new BCM Recce looked when they picked it up? Is it like the quality of a Daniel Defense? Thank you.
I was looking at this BCM: https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/bravo-company-usa-recce-16-mcmr-ar-15-semi-auto-rifle-556-nato-16-barrel-30-rounds-m-lok-handguard-collapsible-stock-black-812526021724.do?utm_source=slickguns&utm_medium=wikiarmsgunengine
I have one and it is great. It is perfect.
I don’t think you’ll hear much negative on BCM’s fit, finish, or general quality.
IKnowNotEverything
08-23-18, 16:00
They are all fine choices, and will serve you well. My Colt Trooper came with a minor scratches and marks on the receivers. It runs flawlessly, and is one of our favorite rifles.
Daniel Defense is excellent, but pricey. I REALLY like their S2W barrel profile, thinking about making a build off one.
Many prefer the BCM uppers with the ELW barrel profile over standard gov't profile uppers. I'd buy the upper separately, and an A5 lower from Grant at gandrtactical.com. My first BCM upper came from them direct, and fit and finish was flawless. My MCMR rail has one little nick on the front, easily covered and not a concern. Great company.
I am not a fan of CTD.
I don't care much for ctd either after the ammo gouging during the shortage years ago. I do love my Sgl 21 I bought around 2008 from them in Fort Worth.
Yeah don't buy from CTD. DD and BCM should be pretty equal on just about everything, I just prefer BCM because I think you get more for the money with all of their Gunfighter accessories.
I’m in the camp of buy the BCM upper and bolt separately, then kit out a lower with an A5 RE and Trigger of your choice and charging handle.
Their PNT trigger is good but I prefer Geissele in my lowers with BCM uppers.
"Fit and Finish" has never been a wise way to select an AR15. That said, every BCM I've ever had arrived looking fantastic.
I've had/seen a bunch of BCM stuff and don't recall any cosmetic issues.
I've got a BCM upper, some BCM rails, and a BCM ELW fluted barrel. All were very nice high quality. I wouldn't give a penny to CTD. Price gouging MF'ers
Thanks guys for the replies. Much appreciated. Just like everything I've buy, my OCD really skyrockets when I first get a brand new item (car, phone, etc.) Scratches and blemishes would bug the heck out of me for several weeks, but over time I start to care less.
The Colt CCU I saw just really bothered me. Anyways, I will not shop at CTD. I noticed on their BCM's website that they don't even show the Recce with Mlok. Is the one that CTD is selling stock from BCM or something they modified?
redpillregret
08-23-18, 17:07
If “fit and finish” is the most important thing for you, it really doesn’t matter what you buy. Comb through the racks to find something pretty. If it has to be pretty, you’ll never shoot it anyway.
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Thanks guys for the replies. Much appreciated. Just like everything I've buy, my OCD really skyrockets when I first get a brand new item (car, phone, etc.) Scratches and blemishes would bug the heck out of me for several weeks, but over time I start to care less.
The Colt CCU I saw just really bothered me. Anyways, I will not shop at CTD. I noticed on their BCM's website that they don't even show the Recce with Mlok. Is the one that CTD is selling stock from BCM or something they modified?
Like another guy said and I have said a thousand times... Get a BCM lower from Grant and the upper directly from BCM. You get it your way.
dirkmagurk
08-23-18, 17:43
I have both DD and BCM and they are equal when it comes to fit and finish. Personally I would go DD but only because they pin their gas blocks and I personally prefer a pinned gas block over a dimpled, setscrew, and loctited one.
I'm going to buck this trend and say DO NOT GET THE BCM, and yes, this is the first time I think I've ever said this.
IIRC, the OP has made posts previously indicating he is fixated on certain things, and reliability/ durability is not at the top of his list from the indications given. There is nothing wrong with that, but since he is buying for looks, BCM is not the best option.
The OP should go into a brick and mortar store, and inspect the weapon for 15 minutes or longer. Sure this is going to make the counter guy want to punch him in the face, but it is either that or the OP will go home and use macro mode on his phone to show everyone minor issues that aren't visible unless viewed close up.
Again, I'm not making fun of the OP, but since he knows the looks and finish are a huge issue, he should buy accordingly.
Like another guy said and I have said a thousand times... Get a BCM lower from Grant and the upper directly from BCM. You get it your way.
This. Fit and finish from BCM has been excellent.
Between DD and BCM, DD probably wins on the fit and finish department. I have jack carbine and upper and lower wobbles a little bit. But firearms are tools instead of collection items. All my KAC fits perfectly but finish like crap, but they are my favorite rifles..lol
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In my experience for fit and finish DD wins hands down. BCM and Colt are probably in the same ballpark. If OP cares that much about fit and finish might as well buy S&W etc. off the shelf that looks best to him.
"Fit and Finish" has never been a wise way to select an AR15. That said, every BCM I've ever had arrived looking fantastic.
If “fit and finish” is the most important thing for you, it really doesn’t matter what you buy. Comb through the racks to find something pretty. If it has to be pretty, you’ll never shoot it anyway.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhat these guys said.
I typically go out of my way to buy scratched up firearms. Police used Colt 6920 for $600! Full of scratches and about 1.5 cases of ammo cheaper than new.
While all 3 are good I'd save a few bucks, buy the Colt and ammo with the money saved and get some training
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titsonritz
08-23-18, 19:31
All mine started out pretty (beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all) hell their blems are better looking than some of the dog shit I've seen out there, but as others have said if buying for looks...go look.
I'm going to buck this trend and say DO NOT GET THE BCM, and yes, this is the first time I think I've ever said this.
IIRC, the OP has made posts previously indicating he is fixated on certain things, and reliability/ durability is not at the top of his list from the indications given. There is nothing wrong with that, but since he is buying for looks, BCM is not the best option.
The OP should go into a brick and mortar store, and inspect the weapon for 15 minutes or longer. Sure this is going to make the counter guy want to punch him in the face, but it is either that or the OP will go home and use macro mode on his phone to show everyone minor issues that aren't visible unless viewed close up.
Again, I'm not making fun of the OP, but since he knows the looks and finish are a huge issue, he should buy accordingly.
Not familiar with the OP's other postings, but if the above is true, then ^^^^ this is the best advice.
Since nobody else has had bad F&F from BCM, I guess I'll spoil the party just to show it happens. First, I bought a blem lower, and to this day cannot find the blem. At a different time, probably six years ago, I bought a BCM BFH LW complete upper and the upper is purple. Still own it like that to this day because I could care less, but I mention it just so people know that BCM isn't perfect. In fact, there are no perfect companies. My SR-15 Mod 2 upper and lower didn't match. I have a KAC Taupe Mk12/18 front sight that's half brown and half greyish with blotches.
So, I concur with Stickman, and suggest you buy from brick & mortar stores where you can inspect it if you want "perfect". If you even have a hint of OCD, do not buy online thinking you'll just refuse transfer if you find some nit-picky fit and finish thing you don't like, and expect a retailer to take it back without cost to you.
I am Paul Manafort, and I approve of this message.
I'm going to buck this trend and say DO NOT GET THE BCM, and yes, this is the first time I think I've ever said this.
IIRC, the OP has made posts previously indicating he is fixated on certain things, and reliability/ durability is not at the top of his list from the indications given. There is nothing wrong with that, but since he is buying for looks, BCM is not the best option.
The OP should go into a brick and mortar store, and inspect the weapon for 15 minutes or longer. Sure this is going to make the counter guy want to punch him in the face, but it is either that or the OP will go home and use macro mode on his phone to show everyone minor issues that aren't visible unless viewed close up.
Again, I'm not making fun of the OP, but since he knows the looks and finish are a huge issue, he should buy accordingly.
I have a BCM RECCE upper (with the magnesium KMR) mated to a BCM complete lower. Fit and finish was immaculate when I got it. I've made peace with the fact that the magnesium rail is a scratch magnet.
I'm at the point now where I don't care how it looks as long as it shoots lights out. I got a DD Mk 18 upper from Brownells that had several dings in the rail & barrel when it arrived, but tbh I don't care one bit. I suppose if I were dropping $2k+ on a KAC I'd expect it to look pretty...
To answer your original question, my BCM was every bit as pretty as my best friend's DDM4v7 LW when they were both new. The three rifles you mentioned are all high quality, so pick the rail you like and drive on.
556BlackRifle
08-23-18, 20:41
I'm going to buck this trend and say DO NOT GET THE BCM, and yes, this is the first time I think I've ever said this.
IIRC, the OP has made posts previously indicating he is fixated on certain things, and reliability/ durability is not at the top of his list from the indications given. There is nothing wrong with that, but since he is buying for looks, BCM is not the best option.
The OP should go into a brick and mortar store, and inspect the weapon for 15 minutes or longer. Sure this is going to make the counter guy want to punch him in the face, but it is either that or the OP will go home and use macro mode on his phone to show everyone minor issues that aren't visible unless viewed close up.
Again, I'm not making fun of the OP, but since he knows the looks and finish are a huge issue, he should buy accordingly.
Well said Stick.
OP, BCM = GTG. DD also GTG although I generally prefer BCM. cheaper than dirt = Not GTG.
Mr. Goodtimes
08-23-18, 21:55
Hello all.
I am trying to decide between a Daniel Defense M4 V7 LW or SLW, a Colt CCU and a BCM Recce 16" for my first AR.
I got to look at a DD and wow the fit and finish is outstanding. Very nicely made. Looks absolutely beautiful compared to the Colt CCU which I looked at a new in box and it was filled with scratches and blemishes.
Any BCM owners out there that can chip me how their brand new BCM Recce looked when they picked it up? Is it like the quality of a Daniel Defense? Thank you.
I was looking at this BCM: https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/bravo-company-usa-recce-16-mcmr-ar-15-semi-auto-rifle-556-nato-16-barrel-30-rounds-m-lok-handguard-collapsible-stock-black-812526021724.do?utm_source=slickguns&utm_medium=wikiarmsgunengine
Fit and finish isn’t going to matter after a few thousand rounds of real world use. The “fit and finish” between all the reputable manufacturers is adequate.
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Eurodriver
08-23-18, 22:17
Fit and finish isn’t going to matter after a few thousand rounds of real world use. The “fit and finish” between all the reputable manufacturers is adequate.
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“But if I buy a gun I want it to look good for the gram!”
I have a V7 bought locally and a BCM RECCE bought online, don’t remember either having any fit or finish issues... they have functioned well... I don’t think you can go wrong with either... I can say that my PWS Pistol is probably the best looking rifle-caliber firearm I own, but it also functions well...
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Mr. Goodtimes
08-23-18, 23:43
“But if I buy a gun I want it to look good for the gram!”
Who cares how it performs it’s all about dem likez
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Who cares how it performs it’s all about dem likez
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Let's not jump on a guy for wanting something different than some of us. He is still buying a firearm, and that puts him as one of the good guys and 2A supporters.
Let's not jump on a guy for wanting something different than some of us. He is still buying a firearm, and that puts him as one of the good guys and 2A supporters.
Thanks Stickman for backing me up.
redpillregret
08-24-18, 09:16
Thanks Stickman for backing me up.
Honest question:
Are you going to shoot said rifle? Are you going to only shoot said rifle on a square range, carefully clean and put it away immediately? Will said gun live on a bench and safe?
Or do you plan to really shoot the gun.
What is the purpose of said gun?
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Doc Safari
08-24-18, 10:01
Balthezor, I realize that in a lot of cases people that have to budget themselves carefully to even afford a quality firearm might want to keep it store-window clean and in mint condition as long as possible. Not saying that's your situation but I've been there. When it takes you all summer (or all year) to save for one firearm you tend to want to not "hurt" it at all, and you don't want to get it home only to see that it came from the factory with a scuff mark, scratch, poor color match, or other issue.
Realize, though, that if it's intended for home defense or "combat" use, it's not going to stay pretty forever, and any "wear", scratches, or other cosmetic "faults" just enhance its character as a "combat" weapon.
Although there's a certain degree of respectability for taking good care of your guns and keeping them in near mint condition, there is also a certain respectability for having the weapon that's got obvious use: It speaks of a "veteran" firearm and you as an experienced shooter. A "perfect" gun should be a conversation piece, a safe queen, or some cherished collectible. If the gun you want falls into one of these latter categories, then by all means purchase your gun based on looks. But if you want something that's going to hold back the barbarian hordes coming over the hill, then you want a weapon that will hold up under the harshest conditions and schedule of use and abuse. In that scenario cosmetics don't amount to much and you are better off purchasing a weapon that is going to be there for you even when you've abused it, shot it excessively, and not cleaned it worth a crap. That type of weapon needs to be a top tier brand like BCM, Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, etc., and not one that "looks pretty". To give you an example, you'd be better off with a lightly used Colt than a brand-spankin' new cosmetically perfect Bushmaster.
Hope that helps.
Thanks Stickman for backing me up.
I've got a cop buddy (different shift but still a good guy) who is that way about weapons. He wants the best, but is heavily OCD. Every time we have ridden together as a two man patrol, he reminds me to kick my shoes off before getting in. I don't meant he reminds me once, I mean he reminds me EVERY SINGLE TIME I'm about to get back in the cruiser.
Perhaps I worded my original post wrong. I didn't mean to say that I was only going to shoot the rifle 50 times and keep it on a glass case to admire it. I do want to use it, practice with it and get better at it. I agree it is a tool. Like any tool, it is meant to be used. A dumb example would be a phone. You go out and spend $800 on a brand new phone. If it was full of scratches/blemishes brand new, I wouldn't take that phone or should anyone. Even though I know that over time, I will eventually put scratches myself on it. Same thing with a brand new car. It's going to get full of scratches, chipped paint eventually, but not when the dealer is handing me the keys with 2 miles in the odometer.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was slightly disappointing seeing a Colt CCU brand new in box full of scratches, while the Daniel Defense or even the M&P 15 was practically flawless. I asked this about the BCM because it's one of the rifles I am considering. Anyways, really appreciate all the feedback here so far.
Once you get a couple of ARs and have a few years with them, keeping them in great shape kinda goes away. I used to keep my first AR or two super clean. Now I just toss it in the back of the pickup and drive down to paint the steel targets.
Perhaps I worded my original post wrong. I didn't mean to say that I was only going to shoot the rifle 50 times and keep it on a glass case to admire it. I do want to use it, practice with it and get better at it. I agree it is a tool. Like any tool, it is meant to be used. A dumb example would be a phone. You go out and spend $800 on a brand new phone. If it was full of scratches/blemishes brand new, I wouldn't take that phone or should anyone. Even though I know that over time, I will eventually put scratches myself on it. Same thing with a brand new car. It's going to get full of scratches, chipped paint eventually, but not when the dealer is handing me the keys with 2 miles in the odometer.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was slightly disappointing seeing a Colt CCU brand new in box full of scratches, while the Daniel Defense or even the M&P 15 was practically flawless. I asked this about the BCM because it's one of the rifles I am considering. Anyways, really appreciate all the feedback here so far.
I get what you are saying, and for the most part agree.
I use a lot of BCM blem/demo uppers in builds and rarely see any form of blemish on them, yet they are sold as blemishes or else demos that have been assembled and then taken apart I think that says something for the standard of appearance that BCM strives for.
I wouldn't be worried about scratches, dings if I was buying a whole rifle from them. If the worst happens and you open the box at the FFL and the rifle is all bunged up, refuse acceptance and have the FFL send it back. Between you, BCM, and you credit card company, you should be able to get it sorted out. But as I said, I don't think that is likely.
I have firearms - pistols, rifles and shotguns - that I don't get to upset if they get dropped or banged around, they are tools. I also have firearms that I don't treat the same way. I understand you point of view.
redpillregret
08-24-18, 15:47
Perhaps I worded my original post wrong. I didn't mean to say that I was only going to shoot the rifle 50 times and keep it on a glass case to admire it. I do want to use it, practice with it and get better at it. I agree it is a tool. Like any tool, it is meant to be used. A dumb example would be a phone. You go out and spend $800 on a brand new phone. If it was full of scratches/blemishes brand new, I wouldn't take that phone or should anyone. Even though I know that over time, I will eventually put scratches myself on it. Same thing with a brand new car. It's going to get full of scratches, chipped paint eventually, but not when the dealer is handing me the keys with 2 miles in the odometer.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was slightly disappointing seeing a Colt CCU brand new in box full of scratches, while the Daniel Defense or even the M&P 15 was practically flawless. I asked this about the BCM because it's one of the rifles I am considering. Anyways, really appreciate all the feedback here so far.
If that’s important to you, then, like stick said you’re foolish for asking about specific rifles. You need to go to a dealer and comb through.
If you’re as fixated on cosmetics as it sounds, then you’re going to miss out on quality rifles...and pretty much anything with military as a target audience. Maybe ARs are not for you.
Perhaps things with anodizing and parkerizing in general are not for you as both finishes are easily scratched from handling. It will happen between the manufactures and the shelves. Even “box” guns are handled. It really doesn’t take much to make little micro abrasions in these finishes.
Would you comb through a display of shovels looking for that perfect one? If you buy a new $400 impact driver and the finish on the chuck is discolored, would you take it back?
The “fit and finish” of a quality AR is staking properly done, properly torqued fasteners, properly weighted springs, a straight front sight post, taper-pinned gas block, etc.
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Perhaps things with anodizing and parkerizing in general are not for you as both finishes are easily scratched from handling.
To me, holding a blued gun is what makes me nervous. If you put an AR in a case when you transport it, it'll stay in great shape.
ChattanoogaPhil
08-24-18, 16:26
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was slightly disappointing seeing a Colt CCU brand new in box full of scratches, while the Daniel Defense or even the M&P 15 was practically flawless. I asked this about the BCM because it's one of the rifles I am considering. Anyways, really appreciate all the feedback here so far.
I get it. Folks generally expect a new rifle to arrive at their FFL appearing unmolested. A rifle with a lot of noticeable scratches out of the box isn't usual for any brand I'm aware of. Don't overthink it. Buy the rifle you want. Odds are high it will arrive in condition that meets your approval. If it arrives at your FFL in unacceptable condition it can usually be returned prior to transfer. Read online sales conditions prior to ordering. Good luck.
Eurodriver
08-24-18, 18:05
Let's not jump on a guy for wanting something different than some of us. He is still buying a firearm, and that puts him as one of the good guys and 2A supporters.
I can get behind this.
I understand the OP's concern, I just don't share it. Most of mine are builds but as a store bought upper and lower BCM is my favorite. I pay attention to the fit, not the finish. I check the front sight post, does the pivot pin and take down pin operate smoothly? Do all springs seem to have proper tension. The visual tells me about staking. I'm like many here that have put lots of rounds downrange, jaded to the look. I've had pre-war S&W's or 1911's that were works of art, AR's just aren't.
FWIW the nicest, slickest complete rifle I've ever had is between a Noveske when John could still be spoken to on the phone and an early PredatAR from Larue. Funny thing is I don'tr even shoot them anymore.
The finish on a Colt AR is pretty damn tough. I think a lot of what folks think are scratches on new Colts are just residue left from whatever rubbed against it and I bet they clean up.
Awhile back I was careless working on my Colt and scratched the lower with a steel tool. I don't remember what I was doing or what I was doing it with, but the tool slip and left a shiny three inch silver line that looked like it cut down into the base metal. But, I got some oil and rubbed it in with my fingers and after a couple of minutes of work, the scratch was gone. Spend a few minutes rubbing some oil (or solvent) into the metal of your AR and I bet most, if not all, of the marks in the finish will clean right up. It takes a lot of use and abuse to wear good Parkerizing and Anodizing down to the bare metal.
This is true, they come wrapped in plastic and the lube sticks to it and makes what appears to be marks. Wipe it down and they are gone.
I think a lot of what folks think are scratches on new Colts are just residue left from whatever rubbed against it and I bet they clean up.
That is probably true in general, but not on mine. Mine has this “dragged through a gravel pit” look to it that oil ain’t taking off. It’s not an issue for me though. Great shooting rifle and I’d buy another one.
OP, you and I differ in our approach to form following function. But if I did value looks and quality with equal measure I’d probably go someplace where I could hand pick a DD or BCM. That would ensure you get something pleasing to the eye with bet the farm quality.
You might have some trouble keeping it pristine, however, as you commit to using it to improve your proficiency with it.
Good luck in your search.
redpillregret
08-25-18, 06:00
To me, holding a blued gun is what makes me nervous. If you put an AR in a case when you transport it, it'll stay in great shape.
I know what you mean but it takes a real scratch to damage bluing. Parkerizing and anodizing both take little microabrasions that don’t reach the bare metal, but have the “scratched” look that will drive the OP batshit bonkers. Of course, we both know that they will rub out with a little lube and elbow grease.
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I'm showing up late for the party, but my (sample of 1) BCM upper receiver group was flawless (no scratches, even parkerizing and anodizing) and carefully packaged when it arrived. All parts to complete that build except the lower receiver are BCM parts and they showed the same quality and care.
I have read countless times online that BCM has an extremely robust quality control and quality assurance program.
I know we got a little side-tracked discussing the merits of judging true quality by appearance, but IMHO a BCM purchase will satisfy you from the moment you open the box and keep you satisfied for years to come.
The same is true for 5 or six companies, but you asked about BCM.
Andy
The finish on a Colt AR is pretty damn tough. I think a lot of what folks think are scratches on new Colts are just residue left from whatever rubbed against it and I bet they clean up.
Awhile back I was careless working on my Colt and scratched the lower with a steel tool. I don't remember what I was doing or what I was doing it with, but the tool slip and left a shiny three inch silver line that looked like it cut down into the base metal. But, I got some oil and rubbed it in with my fingers and after a couple of minutes of work, the scratch was gone. Spend a few minutes rubbing some oil (or solvent) into the metal of your AR and I bet most, if not all, of the marks in the finish will clean right up. It takes a lot of use and abuse to wear good Parkerizing and Anodizing down to the bare metal.
The hardcoat anodizing is very hard, the base aluminium alloy is relatively soft. The anodizing's resistance is dependent on that bas metal. Anything harder than the base aluminium that hits the receivers with enough momentum or force is going to to gouge it.
The finish on Colt is rough.... Look at this one. :jester:
https://i.imgur.com/OTDcb7r.jpg
Perhaps I worded my original post wrong. I didn't mean to say that I was only going to shoot the rifle 50 times and keep it on a glass case to admire it. I do want to use it, practice with it and get better at it. I agree it is a tool. Like any tool, it is meant to be used. A dumb example would be a phone. You go out and spend $800 on a brand new phone. If it was full of scratches/blemishes brand new, I wouldn't take that phone or should anyone. Even though I know that over time, I will eventually put scratches myself on it. Same thing with a brand new car. It's going to get full of scratches, chipped paint eventually, but not when the dealer is handing me the keys with 2 miles in the odometer.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it was slightly disappointing seeing a Colt CCU brand new in box full of scratches, while the Daniel Defense or even the M&P 15 was practically flawless. I asked this about the BCM because it's one of the rifles I am considering. Anyways, really appreciate all the feedback here so far.
What is the price difference in a new Colt vs DD? Colt has every reason to cost considerably more money, but it doesn't, why? Colt does NOT try to make pretty weapons. They make a functional weapon. BCM doesn't try to make a pretty weapon, they make a functional weapon.
If you want Colt to make a pristine beautiful weapon, they are more than capable of doing it. Take a look at their custom shop, or the line of revolvers they create. They are beautiful, but they are not cheap by any stretch. They have made the decision that the M4 and the commercial variants are not worth the pretty look.
Personally, I have zero interest in seeing Colt AR prices double, though I understand a small amount of others would find the price acceptable.
Perhaps it is me, but when people ask me about "fit and finish," I always respond with, "you forgot the most important F word-----Function." All of my BCM's fit and finish were more than acceptable. However, my standard of acceptable may not be up to your standard.
Cheers, Steve
I have read countless times online that BCM has an extremely robust quality control and quality assurance program.
Andy
Indeed they do. There is a difference however, where some companies worry about how a weapon looks, there are other companies that are putting their concerns into little details, like springs or other levels not noticed by the human eye. BCM is putting an eye on important things, and while the vast majority of their weapons look fantastic, that is a byproduct and not the intent.
The above is my take on things. Each person is obviously entitled to their own thoughts and views.
The finish on Colt is rough.... Look at this one. :jester:
https://i.imgur.com/OTDcb7r.jpg
This is beautiful
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It's been a while since since I last bought a BCM upper but I seem to remember the finish on them being decent when I got them, however two of them have been given half-assed rattle-can jobs and all three have been shot extensively, bumped into things, fallen off stuff and just basically *used*. They look prettier to me *now* to be honest...
Considering how many people artificially distress the exterior of their ARs, or pay big money for "battle worn" ceracoat, you'd think the allegedly crappy finish on a Colt would make it *more* desirable.
That being said, the finish on my PD trade in 6520 is quite good for a nineteen year old LE gun....
AR-15's are a different animal than most guns. Wanna build a super accurate one? Just know how to turn screws, wrench bolts and punch a few pins, no gunsmithing required. Scratch an AR-15? Shouldn't worry about it. Worry about scratches on your custom gunsmith built bolt action, don't worry about scratches on your AR-15, don't worry about dropping your AR-15, it's fine, the same rules don't apply as they do with other guns.
The hardcoat anodizing is very hard, the base aluminium alloy is relatively soft. The anodizing's resistance is dependent on that bas metal. Anything harder than the base aluminium that hits the receivers with enough momentum or force is going to to gouge it.
If you put an AR receiver in a vise to crush it, Anodizing will do little to resist the crushing. It does little to prevent dents, bending or cracking. But the Anodizing will still be intact. Anodizing is, however, very resistant to abrasion and gouging. (A gouge is a scratch or dent that results in displaced metal. The displaced metal manifest as a burr.)
But, have you ever had to remove Anodizing? Anodizing converts the aluminum into aluminum oxide, one of the hardest substances known to man. Aluminum oxide is used to make abrasives, such as emery cloth and grinding pads. Grinding through Anodizing to get to the base aluminum below can be a real chore.. Once the Anodizing has been removed, the base aluminum underneath is easier to sand, file, polish etc. Realize that some alloys are tougher than others and the 7075 alloy used to make AR receivers is one of the toughest. It's used to forge landing gear parts used in high performance and heavy aircraft. it's used to forge the fittings that hold the wings, vertical & horizontal stabilizers to the fuselage. It's what engine mounts are forged from.
I've seen it said on the internet how new Colt ARs are delivered with scratches and gouges. I've seen photos of buggered roll marks and voids in the surface of the receivers that never should have made it out of the factory. But I've yet to see photos of damage to the finish that cuts through the Anodizing and into the base metal in ARs fresh from Colt. Even a lot of wear is only through the dye but not the Anodizing.
All those aluminum mags worn until they look gold? That's from the dye being worn away until the Anodizing is exposed.
Oh I know a fair bit about corundum (I have much experience working with sapphire and ruby, big-ass examples of both are on my desk and holding a big-ass star sapphire right now) thank you very much...
Aluminium oxide's hardness is entirely dependent on it's structure. As a coating it's hardness is dependent on it's application process, anodizing being the softest, STILL being only as resistant to gouging and denting as it's base metal alloy. Unlike sapphire and ruby, Anodizing is not a crystalline form of aluminium oxide and is NOWHERE near the hardness of corundum, like, extremely far from it.
Have you ever put a file to a sapphire? Have you ever put a file to type III anodizing? I have. As a matter of fact I have, just for fun, tried the hardest files I own (besides my diamond files, diamond is four times as hard as sapphire/corundum) on that star sapphire putting so much pressure I could barely hold the stone still. Trying to scratch sapphire with files is a pointless endeavour since the absolute hardness of sapphire is more than four times that of a steel file, but it does put things in perspective. In comparison you can take your softest file and go right through type III anodizing with barely any forward motion and very little pressure. Try it.
That's one of the reasons I'm staying the hell away from the latest stupid trend of putting superhard machining industry coatings on gun parts, all it does is drastically accelerate the rates at which things wear out, now instead of the easily replaceable parts wearing out it's the guns themselves that wear out, that's so smart...
As follow up to Artiz...
Any reason to stay away from NP3 or NP3+ coatings on the receivers themselves? My thought: NP3+ on receivers, NP3 on the bolt, and voila. The receiver has the harder coating.
Outlander Systems
08-28-18, 12:31
BCM is hobby-grade hot garbage.
You'd be an absolute ass to get a BCM over a DD product.
BCM is hobby-grade hot garbage.
You'd be an absolute ass to get a BCM over a DD product.
WTF? I can't help but suspect there's some agenda behind that post. Way too many guys here running way too many BCM guns/barrels/bcgs/uppers for that to stick to the wall.
Nothing wrong with DD (other than some port size issues in the past), but I must be an ass, because I'll take BCM any day of the week.
Outlander Systems
08-28-18, 12:51
I had some significant issues with two different BCM uppers. Enough so that they're now on my "no-go" list.
YMMV.
As for agenda, I in no way, shape, or form, have a pecuniary interest in the firearms industry (thank god).
WTF? I can't help but suspect there's some agenda behind that post. Way too many guys here running way too many BCM guns/barrels/bcgs/uppers for that to stick to the wall.
Nothing wrong with DD (other than some port size issues in the past), but I must be an ass, because I'll take BCM any day of the week.
Doc Safari
08-28-18, 13:01
I had some significant issues with two different BCM uppers. Enough so that they're now on my "no-go" list.
.
Do tell. My BCM's date from 2010 when they were a small company making only a few hundred rifles a year. Mine were nearly perfect.
redpillregret
08-28-18, 13:36
So if I’ve had issues with two DD uppers, we can call them “hobby rifles”?
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I had some significant issues with two different BCM uppers. Enough so that they're now on my "no-go" list.
YMMV.
As for agenda, I in no way, shape, or form, have a pecuniary interest in the firearms industry (thank god).
Did you post about them here? I'm a huge BCM fanboy so I typically try to pay attention when someone has an issue.
wetidlerjr
08-28-18, 15:57
BCM is hobby-grade hot garbage.
You'd be an absolute ass to get a BCM over a DD product.
WTF? I can't help but suspect there's some agenda behind that post. Way too many guys here running way too many BCM guns/barrels/bcgs/uppers for that to stick to the wall.
Nothing wrong with DD (other than some port size issues in the past), but I must be an ass, because I'll take BCM any day of the week.
I have to agree. Happy to be an ass.
wetidlerjr
08-28-18, 16:07
I had some significant issues with two different BCM uppers. Enough so that they're now on my "no-go" list.
YMMV.
As for agenda, I in no way, shape, or form, have a pecuniary interest in the firearms industry (thank god).
I have more than one BCM (less than a dozen) with no problems I or the ammo didn't cause (mostly me).
However, since I have no pecuniary interest in your firearms, please carry on!
Since I don't recall the specific issues you claimed to have had, your statement is simply ludacris. You allegedly had some issues and so we are supposed to disregard the fact that there are thousands and thousands of complete rifles, uppers and parts in use.
If that is qualifying criteria, then we would need to discount DD as well considering they had multiple issues with Fire Control Groups. In fact there is not ONE SINGLE AR MANUFACTURER that has a 100% spotless reputation to include Colt which has been making rifles for over 50 years.
https://danieldefense.com/safety/
BCM is hobby-grade hot garbage.
You'd be an absolute ass to get a BCM over a DD product.
Apparently someone lacks reading comprehension and didn't understand my post. And since you didn't PM me outright and reported the post, I am going to respond here. I am not saying that the poster couldn't have had an issue.
My problem is when he claims BCM is "hobby grade hot garbage" with no other additional information about what occurred or what steps were taken to resolve the issue. In addition as I stated above, if the criteria for hobby grade hot garbage is one person's experience then we need to pretty much put all AR manufacturers the same category.
WTF?
On occasion, there is a level of ignorance which rises to shake its ugly head even on this board. That level is spectacular in the way it allows an individual to label themselves in a way no one else could.
sidewaysil80
08-28-18, 19:36
BCM is hobby-grade hot garbage.
You'd be an absolute ass to get a BCM over a DD product.
Everyone knows I’m NO fan of BCM, but some context or backstory would have been far more helpful.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/897f9bdc81d4e8347eaa36d313f14ad0/tenor.gif?itemid=4969512
Apparently someone lacks reading comprehension and didn't understand my post. And since you didn't PM me outright and reported the post, I am going to respond here. I am not saying that the poster couldn't have had an issue.
My problem is when he claims BCM is "hobby grade hot garbage" with no other additional information about what occurred or what steps were taken to resolve the issue. In addition as I stated above, if the criteria for hobby grade hot garbage is one person's experience then we need to pretty much put all AR manufacturers the same category.
As I said, I did not want to get in a pissing contest with a moderator. Still don't.
There is no pissing contest and people don't get banned for disagreeing with moderators. I made my post clearer for those who didn't get it and I stand by statement. BCM doesn't pay me and in fact, is a competitor.
As I said, I did not want to get in a pissing contest with a moderator. Still don't.
As soon as you start using it it's going to get scratched. Who cares? It's a freaking tool. Do you care if your hammer has scratches on it? I remember wanting my new hammer to get scratched so I didn't look like the new guy I was. My car an motorcycle were different I wanted those nice an shiny.
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I probably have ten BCM components that includes FF handguards, upper, lower, barrels, etc. Each of them were completely blemish free when I received them. The lower and an original KMR rail both now have more scratches from use than any other rifle I own.....and that's fine with me.
There seems to be a small undercurrent of negativity towards BCM due to the list of names they have training with and promoting the product. I don't follow all that stuff too much, but I've seen a few wise cracks made about BCM for that reason. We just run the guns. They make critical parts to the TDP, so... calling them Hobby Grade as though the stuff is DPMS or some nonsense, is absurd.
Sidneyious
09-01-18, 11:34
Give solgw a call, they will get you what you need.
I had some significant issues with two different BCM uppers. Enough so that they're now on my "no-go" list.
Now that I see that you’re back, I believe people would still like to know the issues you’ve had with your BCM uppers and also what BCM said or did to rectify the problem after you contacted them.
They make critical parts to the TDP, so...
This is the part that I question with virtually all brands - what do they actually make, and what do they source?
As I said - this is the question I have with virtually all brands.
I would really like the bona fides on the various manufacturers LPK's and from where the parts are sourced.
This is the part that I question with virtually all brands - what do they actually make, and what do they source?
As I said - this is the question I have with virtually all brands.
I would really like the bona fides on the various manufacturers LPK's and from where the parts are sourced.
What they make isnt as important as what the specs and QC are.
I know that doesnt answer your question, just making a point. Even if nothing is made in-house, a vendor can still have just as much control of what reaches market as those that do produce in-house.
There seems to be a small undercurrent of negativity towards BCM due to the list of names they have training with and promoting the product. I don't follow all that stuff too much, but I've seen a few wise cracks made about BCM for that reason. We just run the guns. They make critical parts to the TDP, so... calling them Hobby Grade as though the stuff is DPMS or some nonsense, is absurd.
Besides the Frankenstein’s guns I’ve made my factory guns are BCM, LMT and Colt. DD is great butI don’t want to spend the extra money. BCM, LMT and Colt are also the only BCG’s I will use in the guns I’ve built.
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redpillregret
09-05-18, 06:49
This is the part that I question with virtually all brands - what do they actually make, and what do they source?
As I said - this is the question I have with virtually all brands.
I would really like the bona fides on the various manufacturers LPK's and from where the parts are sourced.
Does making a part in-house yield a superior product?
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What they make isnt as important as what the specs and QC are.
I know that doesnt answer your question, just making a point. Even if nothing is made in-house, a vendor can still have just as much control of what reaches market as those that do produce in-house.
This is it. And WHY I trust BCM. As I understand it (third hand info), when BCGs were scarce, you just couldn't get them from Bravo because the correct/specific materials weren't available. Much of the industry just subbed the next best steel.
Does making a part in-house yield a superior product?
No, it does not necessarily.
I suspect that a lot of lower regarded manufacturers use the same parts that higher regarded manufacturers use.
As an example: I'd bet that the C-158, MPI, shot peined, pressure test bolt used on this $79.00 BCG is also used by another manufacturer on a much higher priced BCG: https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
So lets consider this: In 2016, according to BATFE, PSA manufactured roughly 12,000 complete rifles and 113,000 miscellaneous firearms, BCM manufactured roughly 6,000 complete rifles and no miscellaneous firearms.
Who do you think gets a better price on C-158 bolts? or FN barrels? It is called economies of scale.
I think where companies like Sionics and probably BCM shine is in their slower paced assembly process:
At SIONICS, there is no assembly line. Each and every component is inspected by our small team of Armorers to ensure quality and correct dimensions. Each Rifle is properly assembled by ONE person and then checked by another. This process ensures that each build is done correctly before being test fired with ten rounds of ammunition to check function.
I would expect a higher quality build to result from such a process than on a high volume assembly line where each worker handles one operation, often on a piece work basis.
Problem is that you can't produce as much product, so you don't get the same economies of scale in parts pricing and labor costs, so you have to charge more.
redpillregret
09-05-18, 12:16
No, it does not necessarily.
I suspect that a lot of lower regarded manufacturers use the same parts that higher regarded manufacturers use.
As an example: I'd bet that the C-158, MPI, shot peined, pressure test bolt used on this $79.00 BCG is also used by another manufacturer on a much higher priced BCG: https://palmettostatearmory.com/palmetto-state-armory-5-56-premium-full-auto-bolt-carrier-group-8779.html
So lets consider this: In 2016, according to BATFE, PSA manufactured roughly 12,000 complete rifles and 113,000 miscellaneous firearms, BCM manufactured roughly 6,000 complete rifles and no miscellaneous firearms.
Who do you think gets a better price on C-158 bolts? or FN barrels? It is called economies of scale.
I think where companies like Sionics and probably BCM shine is in their slower paced assembly process:
At SIONICS, there is no assembly line. Each and every component is inspected by our small team of Armorers to ensure quality and correct dimensions. Each Rifle is properly assembled by ONE person and then checked by another. This process ensures that each build is done correctly before being test fired with ten rounds of ammunition to check function.
I would expect a higher quality build to result from such a process than on a high volume assembly line where each worker handles one operation, often on a piece work basis.
Problem is that you can't produce as much product, so you don't get the same economies of scale in parts pricing and labor costs, so you have to charge more.
A good friend of mine works in a facility that manufactures AR parts. He does drafting and works with manufacturers to provide parts at the price point which they desire. While economies of scale does play a role, your assumption, according to him, isn’t the whole truth.
He says he starts off sales with asking for their price point for a given part then starts telling them what quality control, processes, and materials can be sacrificed to meet their desired cost. It’s a much more in-depth conversation than I’m going to share with second-hand information on a public forum. However, more goes into parts than “C158 steel, HP, and MPI” to determine parts quality. Manufacturing (or should I say assembling) firms know what bullet points that consumers recognize and strive to meet those bullet points to give the uninformed consumers the fuzzies while knowingly sacrificing in other ways.
Ultimately, while parts may come from the same maker, so do Ford Fiestas and Lincoln Navigators.
And to further expand, Colt is known as the Gold Standard, yet nearly all their parts are outsourced.
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This is a years old example so I'm not sure how true it is now. CMT manufactures AR BCGs. Stag was/is known to use theirs exclusively yet so was Noveske. I'm referring to the C158 bolts and standard parkerized carriers before Noveske began offering nitride BCGs. Noveske supposedly put extra QC into the bolts and charged a little more for them though they weren't that much more expensive, relatively speaking. I think Noveske actually MPI and or HPT 100% of the bolts whereas the basic CMT and Stag were spot tested.
I'm sure there were more manufacturers that did and still do the same thing with CMT parts. I believe CMT makes LPKs as well.
A good friend of mine works in a facility that manufactures AR parts.
What range of AR parts does your friend's employer make?
I understand what you are saying. Some of the QC short cuts might be not testing each bolt, instead testing every 25th, etc.
I will say this, if you are a manufacturer that is willing to knowingly produce substandard parts to meet a price point, I don't think you'll be very successful.
redpillregret
09-05-18, 15:28
What range of AR parts does your friend's employer make?
I understand what you are saying. Some of the QC short cuts might be not testing each bolt, instead testing every 25th, etc.
I will say this, if you are a manufacturer that is willing to knowingly produce substandard parts to meet a price point, I don't think you'll be very successful.
They make everything but springs and receivers as I understand it. They do barrel extensions, lower parts, bolts, and barrels mostly.
And it may not be as simple as “testing every 25th” bolt, but perhaps changing out bits every 500 pieces vs every 100 pieces, recalibration frequency, heat treating processes, etc.
Have you ever been to the Sierra bullet factory? They do amazing tours. They have barrels of “by the pound” bullets for sale afterward. When they switch over from one bullet to the next, they may scrap the first several thousand off the land and after each calibration just to ensure their bullets are statistically where they should be. They sell those bullets by the pound as “seconds” though they were the product after recalibration of equipment and may be perfect otherwise.
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I will say this, if you are a manufacturer that is willing to knowingly produce substandard parts to meet a price point, I don't think you'll be very successful.
And you'd be wrong considering the plethora of sub standard complete AR's and AR parts being purchased on a regular basis, there is somebody making money off of it. In fact, I'd wager that it was the majority of the current market.
Gunsnguitars
09-05-18, 16:06
While fit and finish are not the top priorities on my list, they can be had, along with high quality, and it isn't unreasonable to expect those things when you spend a considerable amount of money on a gun. Any of your choices should be just fine, but ultimately you have to decide which one you like. If a BCM isn't available for your viewing and critique, then perhaps you should consider one of the others you have already seen with your own eyes and felt in your hands. They (DD and Colt) are also known for good quality in terms of reliability and durability. BCM does make good stuff, though, and for the money I like them a lot, but that's my own personal taste.
Have you ever been to the Sierra bullet factory? They do amazing tours. They have barrels of “by the pound” bullets for sale afterward. When they switch over from one bullet to the next, they may scrap the first several thousand off the land and after each calibration just to ensure their bullets are statistically where they should be. They sell those bullets by the pound as “seconds” though they were the product after recalibration of equipment and may be perfect otherwise.
I have a friend that drives over to Sedalia to get 'deals' and he keeps asking me to go. I load 9mm in 115gr JHP and 124gr JHP. I explained to him that it was cheaper to buy Precision Delta 115gr JHP for 85.00 a thousand and have them pay the shipping than to buy Sierra 115gr JHP blems/seconds/floor sweepings for S128.00 a thousand plus drive the 300 miles to Sedalia.
So no, I've never been. Using your logic though, I see the Precision Deltas are substandard. I guess me and the USAMU are shooting substandard stuff. :rolleyes:
Seriously, though, I understand what you are saying.
redpillregret
09-05-18, 18:29
I use Acme or Blue Bullets myself, but for rifle bullets it’s a good deal if you’re there. It’s worth going for the factory tour at least once.
Where are you from?
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I use Acme or Blue Bullets myself, but for rifle bullets it’s a good deal if you’re there. It’s worth going for the factory tour at least once.
Where are you from?
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South Central Kansas, near Wichita.
We are probably going to be near Sedalia (on the KATY trail) next spring, so I'll try to make it.
I can get Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT for 83.00 a thousand, shipped. According to the Sierra list a 55gr FMJ-BT would go for 117.00
Although other places selling the Sierra in hundred lots come in at about $0.19 per bullet, and the Sierra outlet price is $0.12, that is a 1/3 savings.
Does making a part in-house yield a superior product?
No, in no way does it. However, it allows for much more control, and how that control is used is entirely up to the individual manufacturer.
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