View Full Version : Mk 262 - Military usage
I’ve read a fair amount about the benefits of the Black Hills ammo for both longer range and shorter barrel work.
So who in the US military is using it? Why wasn’t/isn’t this rolled out instead of 855A1 or the never-ending search for a second intermediate cartridge?
I initially started this in the general board, and was kindly directed here...
It sounded like the issue was lack of barrier penetration?
I’ve read a fair amount about the benefits of the Black Hills ammo for both longer range and shorter barrel work.
So who in the US military is using it? Why wasn’t/isn’t this rolled out instead of 855A1 or the never-ending search for a second intermediate cartridge?
I initially started this in the general board, and was kindly directed here...
It sounded like the issue was lack of barrier penetration?
Snipers and designated marksmen. Some shooting teams. Some doorkickers, mostly on a pilfered basis.
Barrier penetration is inferior to 855a1 and brown tip. Armor penetration is inferior to 855a1. It (262) is excellent for clear shots on unarmored targets, and effs dudes up with direct torso hits. It also suffers less velocity loss delta from short barrels. So, paradoxically, while 262 is well suited for precision rifles 18”-20”, it is also well suited for 10.3” guns. But many 10.3” users are issued 70tsx. For general use from 14.5” guns (and others), the average goon is best served by m855a1, as is the taxpayer. M855A1 is pretty badass, actually.
indianalex01
08-28-18, 21:16
Snipers and designated marksmen. Some shooting teams. Some doorkickers, mostly on a pilfered basis.
Barrier penetration is inferior to 855a1 and brown tip. Armor penetration is inferior to 855a1. It (262) is excellent for clear shots on unarmored targets, and effs dudes up with direct torso hits. It also suffers less velocity loss delta from short barrels. So, paradoxically, while 262 is well suited for precision rifles 18”-20”, it is also well suited for 10.3” guns. But many 10.3” users are issued 70tsx. For general use from 14.5” guns (and others), the average goon is best served by m855a1, as is the taxpayer. M855A1 is pretty badass, actually.
You are leaving out the very deadly 62gn MK318 MOD 1 SOST Barrier Blind round. Still being used in large quantities by USMC.
vicious_cb
08-28-18, 22:35
I’ve read a fair amount about the benefits of the Black Hills ammo for both longer range and shorter barrel work.
So who in the US military is using it? Why wasn’t/isn’t this rolled out instead of 855A1 or the never-ending search for a second intermediate cartridge?
I initially started this in the general board, and was kindly directed here...
It sounded like the issue was lack of barrier penetration?
Because unless there is a precision requirement there is no need to run Mk262. The awesomeness of Mk262 is overblown, the only reason it got the reputation it got is because how poorly M855 performed in comparison, M855 isnt exactly hard to beat. M855A1, SOST, Browntip are all better choices if you dont need to shoot anything at long range.
Im no military guy, never claimed to be. But I would be more than happy to go to battle with BH Mk262. Velocity and accuracy is amazing.
PB
The awesomeness of Mk262 is overblown, the only reason it got the reputation it got is because how poorly M855 performed in comparison, M855 isnt exactly hard to beat.
This is it, for sure. I've only ALMOST had a chance to see/get a few rounds of M855A1 on two occasions. So now matter how great it is, if you can't reliably get the stuff, who cares? That.. and isn't it loaded to nearly proof round pressures?
For most civilian use, any 77 gr OTM load is a great choice.
indianalex01
08-29-18, 09:37
This is it, for sure. I've only ALMOST had a chance to see/get a few rounds of M855A1 on two occasions. So now matter how great it is, if you can't reliably get the stuff, who cares? That.. and isn't it loaded to nearly proof round pressures?
For most civilian use, any 77 gr OTM load is a great choice.
Mk318 SOST can be gotten. As good as M855A1 and better then 262 damage and penetration wise. Great accuracy as well.
Mk318 SOST can be gotten. As good as M855A1 and better then 262 damage and penetration wise. Great accuracy as well.
I think Pappabear may have purchased some of that. We shot some magical ammo a while back... just for groups and stuff on his Faxon pencil barrel.
You are leaving out the very deadly 62gn MK318 MOD 1 SOST Barrier Blind round. Still being used in large quantities by USMC.
I have no direct experience with it. The design seems good, and I’m glad USMC had the stones to adopt it.
I was really skeptical of 855a1 when it came out, but have come to like it.
Why dont we issue out guys tbbc or some other bonded round for general purpose.
Seems like an accurate bonded SP (tbbc or 75gr golddot)and AP ammo would satisfy everything... but bbonded stuff has lead and thats icky...
At least thats what Ive gathered, please correct if wrong because Im curious.
vicious_cb
08-29-18, 20:37
Why dont we issue out guys tbbc or some other bonded round for general purpose.
Seems like an accurate bonded SP (tbbc or 75gr golddot)and AP ammo would satisfy everything... but bbonded stuff has lead and thats icky...
At least thats what Ive gathered, please correct if wrong because Im curious.
We like to seemingly follow the Hague even though we never signed it so using purposely designed expanding bullets a no go. I can also imagine the BC is pretty bad on a TBBC.
I have no direct experience with it. The design seems good, and I’m glad USMC had the stones to adopt it.
I was really skeptical of 855a1 when it came out, but have come to like it.
Agreed. I have very limited use with it but was pretty impressed at the groups I got out of it compared to 855.
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I used M262 exclusively in 2005 with my SDM-R. Was accurate enough out to at least 800 meters. I was far more hampered by my ACOG than the ammo when shooting at range. Lethality was good out to at least 410 meters (my longest shot).
My old squad leader went SF and had kills out to 400 meters with M262 ot if his Mk18.
indianalex01
08-30-18, 16:55
Why dont we issue out guys tbbc or some other bonded round for general purpose.
Seems like an accurate bonded SP (tbbc or 75gr golddot)and AP ammo would satisfy everything... but bbonded stuff has lead and thats icky...
At least thats what Ive gathered, please correct if wrong because Im curious.
TBBC (Federal LE223T3) aka FBI556T3 is without question the best bonded SP around. BC isn’t the greatest. Flat base as well. It isn’t made for long range. Different animal. SOST is very close. M855A1 is a pretty darn good round now. Took awhile to get it right though.
Is there a better value for a citizen to use against unarmored threats?
IE, is there something that costs less that could be used effectively out of a wide variety of barrel length.
Is there a better value for a citizen to use against unarmored threats?
IE, is there something that costs less that could be used effectively out of a wide variety of barrel length.
I feel there might be comparison made to the Tipped Match Kings, but the price might lessen the value of the performance gains.
Is there a better value for a citizen to use against unarmored threats?
IE, is there something that costs less that could be used effectively out of a wide variety of barrel length.
Gold Dot/Fusion is inexpensive and is an excellent bullet. I would call it a comparatively good value. It is also better at barrier penetration than mk262. I’m sure they’d finally load it to 5.56 pressure if a military contract was in the balance.
indianalex01
08-30-18, 22:47
Is there a better value for a citizen to use against unarmored threats?
IE, is there something that costs less that could be used effectively out of a wide variety of barrel length.
Fusion 62gn SP or gold dot. same bullet as Speer Gold dot. Devastating round. Fair priced
Is there a better value for a citizen to use against unarmored threats?
IE, is there something that costs less that could be used effectively out of a wide variety of barrel length.This is a good deal. They're similar to Fusion and Gold Dot.
Nosler 22 Caliber 64 Grain Bonded Solid Base Bullets w/ Cannelure (BLEM) - 100ct
$19.99
http://www.shootersproshop.com/nosler-products/nosler-blemished-2nds/nosler-blemished-bullets/nosler-22-64gr-bsb-bonded-solid-based-w-cannelure-blem-100ct.html
I was going to mention Fusion but I have no idea how it performs out of different barrel lengths. Anyone have experience?
indianalex01
08-31-18, 00:41
I was going to mention Fusion but I have no idea how it performs out of different barrel lengths. Anyone have experience?
Fusion expand at very low velocities. Down to 1400FPS. Great penetration and holds together well. It is loaded with Gold Dot bullet. It’s one of the best. I shot a spike a few years ago at 40 yards with 62gn Fusion out of a Colt 10.3. He ran 20 yards and dropped. Big blood trail and a through and through. Nice sized exit wound.
I was going to mention Fusion but I have no idea how it performs out of different barrel lengths. Anyone have experience?
Fusion MSR, tested by Eagle_19r on TOS with Silencerco Omega
Noveske 10.5” 2540 fps
Faxon 11.5” 2622 fps
BCM 12.5” 2746 fps
BCM 14.5” 2742 fps
190% expansion when downloaded to 1700fps by Andrew of Chopping Block and M4C
Others on youtube have tested it and obtained similar velocities and terminal performance. Google “62 fusion gelatin”.
I’ve chrono’d it from 14.5” barrels and met, or exceeded the velocities I parroted above. You want the MSR, not the regular. It has staked primers, sealed cases, and higher velocities (though not higher advertised velocities). It’s not quite true 5.56, but it is not as anemic as regular Fusion or Gold Dot. I don’t shoot piles of it, but so far I have had no issues, for whatever that’s worth. I’ve probably shot a few hundred rnds.
Its worth noting that Fusion is also available in Fudd calibers, and in 7-08 works well on pigs and deer. I started using it when it was a new thing because it was cheaper than what I was using before in my bolt guns, and as good, or better.
Gold Dot/Fusion is inexpensive and is an excellent bullet. I would call it a comparatively good value. It is also better at barrier penetration than mk262. I’m sure they’d finally load it to 5.56 pressure if a military contract was in the balance.
It is my understanding that Gold Dots under perform if pushed too fast which is why they are not loaded up to 5.56.
It is my understanding that Gold Dots under perform if pushed too fast which is why they are not loaded up to 5.56.
I don’t doubt you are right, because I really don’t know. Maybe I’ll see what twist my .22-250 is and see if I can figure out gel. What I have heard on the internet (I know, hearsay) is that Speer is concerned about cops putting 5.56 in crummy .223 guns. 75gr Gold Dot, for example is loaded quite weak. If 62 MSR can handle 2,700 fps, why does 75 GD have to move so slow?
indianalex01
08-31-18, 23:31
I don’t doubt you are right, because I really don’t know. Maybe I’ll see what twist my .22-250 is and see if I can figure out gel. What I have heard on the internet (I know, hearsay) is that Speer is concerned about cops putting 5.56 in crummy .223 guns. 75gr Gold Dot, for example is loaded quite weak. If 62 MSR can handle 2,700 fps, why does 75 GD have to move so slow?
The Gold Dot bullet that is also used in Fusion is not as velocity dependent. It don’t need 5.56 velocities. It is loaded at the velocities that give it best performance. 75gn GD is one devastating round. Made to shoot out of shorties as well. Virtually no head on impact. Great penetration and very accurate. There are so many great rounds. My top choices that I have experience with are
MK318 SOST Mod 1, Gold Dot or Fusion 62gn (same bullet) Gold Dot 75gn and if I have to shoot through Glass or car doors then Federals Gem, the LE223T3 62 FB bonded SP. regarded as the best LE 223 load in the world. FBI loads in in 556. Known as FBI556T3. It’s a little hotter. It’s hunting bullet version is known as the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.
indianalex01
09-04-18, 13:19
Double post
vicious_cb
09-16-18, 01:27
With the MK262 it also has to do with the Geneva convention and the use of hollow point ammo on human targets. It is specifically used by non conventional troops (ie delta and SF units as they are not conventional troops.) The MK262 is an awesome round on soft targets but that's about it.
That is incorrect, Mk262 is a JAG approved round for land warfare under the HAGUE convention since the hollow point is manufacturing artifact from making a more accurate bullet, not for expansion. Hence why its called OTM not HPBT.
paco ramirez
09-16-18, 01:30
With the MK262 it also has to do with the Geneva convention and the use of hollow point ammo on human targets. It is specifically used by non conventional troops (ie delta and SF units as they are not conventional troops.) The MK262 is an awesome round on soft targets but that's about it.
.....
With the MK262 it also has to do with the Geneva convention and the use of hollow point ammo on human targets. It is specifically used by non conventional troops (ie delta and SF units as they are not conventional troops.) The MK262 is an awesome round on soft targets but that's about it.
Quit propagating bullshit about the Geneva Convention, and go read about it, and what it covers.
lahunter57
09-16-18, 08:31
Quit propagating bullshit about the Geneva Convention, and go read about it, and what it covers.
Thank you! I don’t know why the Geneva convention has become a catch all for laws governing war.
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I wasn't any sort of special operations and I used M262 exclusively in 2005.
I’ve read a fair amount about the benefits of the Black Hills ammo for both longer range and shorter barrel work.
So who in the US military is using it? Why wasn’t/isn’t this rolled out instead of 855A1 or the never-ending search for a second intermediate cartridge?
I initially started this in the general board, and was kindly directed here...
It sounded like the issue was lack of barrier penetration?
Mark 262 was originally designed as a target cartridge for competition at the National Matches and the Navy Championships. It just happens to be a very accurate cartridge. 9-11 happened and the USAMU was able to load a few 5th SF Group trucks so their SPRs had effective longer-range ammo.
The Army G4 didn't and doesn't want to buy it because it's more expensive than mass-produced ball ammo.
It was the benchmark for competition teams, Designated Marksmen, and SF guys who could pilfer it from stocks originally set aside for SPRs. It is NOT an issue cartridge for the line General Purpose Forces Army.
Marine rifle teams wanted a 77-grain match cartridge to preclude having to load two separate non-standard cartridges (77s and 80s). Their moly-coated 77s are for rifle competition. Their barrier-blind ammo was a requirement because they weren't happy with M855.
M855A1 is a relatively recent round originally developed from the requirement for lead-free ammunition at National Guard small arms ranges in Massachusetts. It is the new GP forces round.
Don't confuse the fact that although a competition team, separate service (Marines or Navy), small unit (CID, NCIS, AFOSI, Coast Guard), or SOCOM has issued an ammo item that it is a standard cartridge issued across the entire Army or the entire military.
indianalex01
09-16-18, 18:04
Quit propagating bullshit about the Geneva Convention, and go read about it, and what it covers.
Perfectly said. Can’t believe people still say BS like that. Making fools of themselves
vicious_cb
09-16-18, 20:56
Mark 262 was originally designed as a target cartridge for competition at the National Matches and the Navy Championships. It just happens to be a very accurate cartridge. 9-11 happened and the USAMU was able to load a few 5th SF Group trucks so their SPRs had effective longer-range ammo.
The Army G4 didn't and doesn't want to buy it because it's more expensive than mass-produced ball ammo.
It was the benchmark for competition teams, Designated Marksmen, and SF guys who could pilfer it from stocks originally set aside for SPRs. It is NOT an issue cartridge for the line General Purpose Forces Army.
Marine rifle teams wanted a 77-grain match cartridge to preclude having to load two separate non-standard cartridges (77s and 80s). Their moly-coated 77s are for rifle competition. Their barrier-blind ammo was a requirement because they weren't happy with M855.
M855A1 is a relatively recent round originally developed from the requirement for lead-free ammunition at National Guard small arms ranges in Massachusetts. It is the new GP forces round.
Don't confuse the fact that although a competition team, separate service (Marines or Navy), small unit (CID, NCIS, AFOSI, Coast Guard), or SOCOM has issued an ammo item that it is a standard cartridge issued across the entire Army or the entire military.
Im not sure what you've seen but Ive heard from multiple dudes downrange who have seen the effects of the different rounds up close who say that SOST and M855A1 tend to work more effectively than Mk262. Is that your experience as well?
indianalex01
09-16-18, 21:10
Im not sure what you've seen but Ive heard from multiple dudes downrange who have seen the effects of the different rounds up close who say that SOST and M855A1 tend to work more effectively than Mk262. Is that your experience as well?
All three rounds are very effective.
vicious_cb
09-16-18, 23:04
All three rounds are very effective.
This from experience?
This from experience?
There is some good data out there on this. It helps to keep the round development in perspective. Mk262 is essentially a target bullet that happens to also work well on living targets as well. It has been revamped a few times to get where it is today and much can be read about it. The other two rounds were developed specifically to meet certain criteria, and in the process also ended up being effective rounds. I dont believe any of the three were optimized foremost to be effective in tissue as much as meeting criteria and not also abysmally doing worse than M855.
vicious_cb
09-17-18, 00:02
There is some good data out there on this. It helps to keep the round development in perspective. Mk262 is essentially a target bullet that happens to also work well on living targets as well. It has been revamped a few times to get where it is today and much can be read about it. The other two rounds were developed specifically to meet certain criteria, and in the process also ended up being effective rounds. I dont believe any of the three were optimized foremost to be effective in tissue as much as meeting criteria and not also abysmally doing worse than M855.
Yes I understand all that. The problem is people keep touting Mk262 as the 5.56 solution when I dont believe it is. Mk318 and M855A1 are much better for general purpose military use and Im trying to find some personal experiences corroborate what Ive heard through the grape vine. That essentially Mk262 is not the end all be all carbine round despite what the internet says.
My personal opinion is that unless you have some kind of precision requirement, you are better off with a bonded SP for civilian and LE use or if you are .mil you are better off with M855A1 or SOST.
Yes I understand all that. The problem is people keep touting Mk262 as the 5.56 solution when I dont believe it is. Mk318 and M855A1 are much better for general purpose military use and Im trying to find some personal experiences corroborate what Ive heard through the grape vine. That essentially Mk262 is not the end all be all carbine round despite what the internet says.
My personal opinion is that unless you have some kind of precision requirement, you are better off with a bonded SP for civilian and LE use or if you are .mil you are better off with M855A1 or SOST.
I'd concur with that.
pointblank4445
09-17-18, 08:08
Yes I understand all that. The problem is people keep touting Mk262 as the 5.56 solution when I dont believe it is. Mk318 and M855A1 are much better for general purpose military use and Im trying to find some personal experiences corroborate what Ive heard through the grape vine. That essentially Mk262 is not the end all be all carbine round despite what the internet says.
My personal opinion is that unless you have some kind of precision requirement, you are better off with a bonded SP for civilian and LE use or if you are .mil you are better off with M855A1 or SOST.
Not too hard to see where that problem comes from...
Barriers and terminal ballistics are largely a mystery to the majority of commercial end-user "home defense" crowd. In many cases, a little knowledge is worse than no knowledge (remember there are people claiming birdshot is the way to go, and many that believe that 5.56 penetrates less than 9mm as a blanket statement without qualifying bullet selection and barrier medium). What these people know (or believe they know) is accuracy. How many inquiries about "sub-MOA" AR's are there? More accuracy is mo better. So if there's a magic bullet that will cut my group by 1/2 or 2/3 over whatever Tula junk they normally use, then THAT must be the magic ticket!
Now, validate that with the fact that we have been in a 17-year war against an un-armored, technologically inferior enemy (some of which actually diety will guide their bullets into the infidels) in a geographic location that is all about distance engagement. Not hard to see why the Mk262 could be put to use...poke holes at distance and let the SOB's bleed it out. And somewhere "used successfully" becomes "effective". The above civilian sees such validation and a legend is born. Score one more for the internet!
We did some of our own ballistic tests, and the Mk262 was downright laughable against some barrier mediums. Gimme a Barnes TSX bullet as a do-all for acceptable accuracy and terminal performance any day of the week over a SMK unless it has to be lobbed beyond 600y.
indianalex01
09-17-18, 10:12
This from experience?
Yes actually. Taken deer with MK318 and Fusion. M262 I have seen reports on. All 3 I have seen in geletin blocks. The victim will not know the difference with any of the 3-4 loads. When I was overseas we still had the M855 2005 Usmc. I like the MK318 SOST the most. Accurate and hits hard. Great barrier penetration
Not hard to see why the Mk262 could be put to use...poke holes at distance and let the SOB's bleed it out. And somewhere "used successfully" becomes "effective".
In my experience, Mk262 is effective, not just used successfully, in unobstructed live tissue. I can agree that it is sub-optimal for barriers. 855a1, SOST, TSX, or BSPs are probably better choices for general use.
M262 is definitely effective. I dont think it makes a great general issue round because of barrier penetration issues, but the round is definitely effective against people.
hotrodder636
09-18-18, 15:56
I don’t want to go search for it but a while back a former user on here, Molon, did accuracy testing on the MK318. It was less than stellar but better than the standard ball (M855 or M193).
Yes actually. Taken deer with MK318 and Fusion. M262 I have seen reports on. All 3 I have seen in geletin blocks. The victim will not know the difference with any of the 3-4 loads. When I was overseas we still had the M855 2005 Usmc. I like the MK318 SOST the most. Accurate and hits hard. Great barrier penetration
M262 is definitely effective. I dont think it makes a great general issue round because of barrier penetration issues, but the round is definitely effective against people.
I know multiple hunters who have used it on hogs within 100 yards that report boring ice pick wounds, all gel, lab, and war stories aside. Hearing it from 1 person, I was a bit skeptical, but having heard it from several, I think mk262 is best used on steel and paper. We have 70gr gmx, tsx, gold dot, etc...lets use that instead. Mk262 was made for people without better options. I feel like using it is similar to people who carry Israeli style.
I don’t doubt you are right, because I really don’t know. Maybe I’ll see what twist my .22-250 is and see if I can figure out gel. What I have heard on the internet (I know, hearsay) is that Speer is concerned about cops putting 5.56 in crummy .223 guns. 75gr Gold Dot, for example is loaded quite weak. If 62 MSR can handle 2,700 fps, why does 75 GD have to move so slow?
I've got a friend that did a ton of testing on 75gr gdsp for me. Long story short, it works fine at higher speeds...however...there are legal reasons federal no longer sells 5.56 gold dot openly. There are a few existing contracts I believe, or were, but it's not a standard item and its loaded to order.
Several things to keep in mind with all ammo...
...expansion at the low end can be quirky...variances in core hardness, etc. matter a lot.
...claimed BC is usually wrong...sometimes VERY wrong. Lose you 100+ yards of expansion envelope wrong...
...projectile evolution is often silent and done on a running basis. Your 2015 lot may use an entirely different projectile from your 2017 lot, even though visually it's the same
I shot a guy at 410 meters with M262 out of my SDM-R. Hit him right below the belly button, fragmented, and two pieces exited his lower back.
Everyone I know who have shot dudes with M262, only a handful truthfully, has not complained about ice pick wounds.
Like I said, there are better options, but from my experience M262 is very effective against people.
vicious_cb
09-20-18, 17:54
I shot a guy at 410 meters with M262 out of my SDM-R. Hit him right below the belly button, fragmented, and two pieces exited his lower back.
Everyone I know who have shot dudes with M262, only a handful truthfully, has not complained about ice pick wounds.
Like I said, there are better options, but from my experience M262 is very effective against people.
Id be impressed if a bullet did anything more than tumble and exit at 410m. The fact that it fragmented at that distance is impressive. Did it hit bone?
No idea. I just talked with the medic who examined the bodies when they showed up at the hospital the day after the firefight. The insurgents in my AO in 2005 were pretty good at taking their wounded when possible.
I just ran a quick ballistic calculator for M262 out of a 20 inch barrel. Its known to fragment reliably down to 1900 FPS and it hits 1900 FPS right at about 400 meters.
indianalex01
09-20-18, 21:42
I just ran a quick ballistic calculator for M262 out of a 20 inch barrel. Its known to fragment reliably down to 1900 FPS and it hits 1900 FPS right at about 400 meters.
So by your calculations the bullet probably shouldn’t have fragged from an 18 inch barrel at 410. 20 inch barrels were not used as SDM-R. Nobody I am aware of was using 20in using Mk262. Story sounded a little suspicious. Anyway, MK262 is a great round but There are better rounds now.
lahunter57
09-20-18, 21:57
So by your calculations the bullet probably shouldn’t have fragged from an 18 inch barrel at 410. 20 inch barrels were not used as SDM-R. Nobody I am aware of was using 20in using Mk262. Story sounded a little suspicious. Anyway, MK262 is a great round but There are better rounds now.
The SDM-R absolutely uses a 20” barrel.
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indianalex01
09-20-18, 22:27
The SDM-R absolutely uses a 20” barrel.
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I stand corrected. I apologize.
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