View Full Version : Am I getting the right info?
I have done a load of reading, YouTube views, and discussions with gun shops on the right home defense AR platform. Here is what I've been told by gun shops:
1. "If someone breaks into your home, you wont have time to grab hearing protection, a 300 Blk is the way to go and Subsonic will at least keep your ears from exploding."
2. "Buy a shot gun."
3. "Get a 300 Blk, subsonic, suppressed."
4. "Get a 5.56, hearing is the least of your concerns if someone breaks in."
5. "Get a Daniel Defense ISR."
6. "Get the 300 Blk and make sure its no longer than 8.5 inches, its pointless to have anything longer."
7. "Get a 5.56 and do subsonic, cheaper ammo but get an adjustable gas block or change your BCG or it wont cycle"
8. "Doesn't matter what you get, your ears will ring and you can cause major ear damage"
So I need your help. I am planning on the LWRCI DI 300 Blk 16", or a DD 300 BLK 14.5", load subsonic, wait for a can in a year or so. If there is any other option (AR), please share.
I have @ $2,500 to spend including an optic.
Shooting any gun indoors is going to be loud, regardless if its supersonic or subsonic, 556 or 300blk, pistol, shotgun or rifle. For a 556, the shorter the barrel, the louder it gets. The first line of defense is a outdoor perimeter motion light, door locks with anti forced entry plates (home depot), alarm system with a telco and cellular transmitter- not WIFI.
Other than that, patching sheetrock is pretty easy and straight forward. A 556, 300blk, 9mm & 45 will go through a lot of walls.
If someone is in your house, you have a bigger problem that deciding on what type of home defense weapon is going to be best.
Nice try, but not quite.
Shooting any gun indoors is going to be loud, regardless if its supersonic or subsonic, 556 or 300blk, pistol, shotgun or rifle. For a 556, the shorter the barrel, the louder it gets. The first line of defense is a outdoor perimeter motion light, door locks with anti forced entry plates (home depot), alarm system with a telco and cellular transmitter- not WIFI.
Other than that, patching sheetrock is pretty easy and straight forward. A 556, 300blk, 9mm & 45 will go through a lot of walls.
If someone is in your house, you have a bigger problem that deciding on what type of home defense weapon is going to be best.
Not sure where you have been seeking this, but yeah lots of misinformation or stuff taken out of context.
I have done a load of reading, YouTube views, and discussions with gun shops on the right home defense AR platform. Here is what I've been told by gun shops:
1. "If someone breaks into your home, you wont have time to grab hearing protection, a 300 Blk is the way to go and Subsonic will at least keep your ears from exploding."
2. "Buy a shot gun."
3. "Get a 300 Blk, subsonic, suppressed."
4. "Get a 5.56, hearing is the least of your concerns if someone breaks in."
5. "Get a Daniel Defense ISR."
6. "Get the 300 Blk and make sure its no longer than 8.5 inches, its pointless to have anything longer."
7. "Get a 5.56 and do subsonic, cheaper ammo but get an adjustable gas block or change your BCG or it wont cycle"
8. "Doesn't matter what you get, your ears will ring and you can cause major ear damage"
So I need your help. I am planning on the LWRCI DI 300 Blk 16", or a DD 300 BLK 14.5", load subsonic, wait for a can in a year or so. If there is any other option (AR), please share.
I have @ $2,500 to spend including an optic.
I have done a load of reading, YouTube views, and discussions with gun shops on the right home defense AR platform. Here is what I've been told by gun shops:
1. "If someone breaks into your home, you wont have time to grab hearing protection, a 300 Blk is the way to go and Subsonic will at least keep your ears from exploding."
2. "Buy a shot gun."
3. "Get a 300 Blk, subsonic, suppressed."
4. "Get a 5.56, hearing is the least of your concerns if someone breaks in."
5. "Get a Daniel Defense ISR."
6. "Get the 300 Blk and make sure its no longer than 8.5 inches, its pointless to have anything longer."
7. "Get a 5.56 and do subsonic, cheaper ammo but get an adjustable gas block or change your BCG or it wont cycle"
8. "Doesn't matter what you get, your ears will ring and you can cause major ear damage"
So I need your help. I am planning on the LWRCI DI 300 Blk 16", or a DD 300 BLK 14.5", load subsonic, wait for a can in a year or so. If there is any other option (AR), please share.
I have @ $2,500 to spend including an optic.
I’m going with “someone has a lot of .300 blackout stuff they need sold.”
16” AR in .223 (preferably 5.56), weapon light, optic and sling will do you just fine.
Take everything you heard at the local gun store and toss it out the window. I've heard more misinformation about guns and ammo at the gun store than anywhere else. If you're using a long gun for home defense, you want supersonic ammo period. If you're going to use subsonic ammo you might as well just use a 9mm handgun (which is actually not a bad choice for home defense either.) Someone told you to use subsonic .223? Hell you might as well just use a Ruger 10/22 at that point because a subsonic .223 isn't gonna be much more effective than a .22lr. With 5.56/.223, or any rifle cartridge really, the killing power comes from velocity, if you take that away by using subsonic ammo then I say you would be better served by using a pistol or a shotgun. In my opinion an AR is the best choice for home defense, it's ergonomic and it points naturally and it's easy to aim and make hits, it has low recoil and it's easy to make follow up shots. It holds a lot of ammo. .223 or 300blk should be effective, but please stay supersonic. You will damage your hearing shooting a rifle indoors, if you're worried about that use a pistol cartridge like 147 gr 9mm or .45 which are designed to be effective at subsonic speeds.
Rifleman_04
09-01-18, 10:05
If you are set on the 300Blk run supersonic ammo. If your decision is based on gun store BS and you are still unsure just get a 16" 5.56 carbine and run a good 5.56 duty load.
If you run a shoot house with a carbine and no earpro it will jack up your hearing but firing a round or two out of a carbine inside a house isn't as bad as people who have never fired a round indoors say.
Any typical silenced setup will be quieter than any unsilenced setup, even subsonics.
Unless you have at least 2 decent 556 setups and are really good, youd be better off getting a 556 and get training and practice a lot.
Edit- not sure about a 16” 9mm carbine, seem pretty quiet, but not my first choice for HD
Edit 2- $2500, colt ccu carbine, socom, 6920 or similar, sf3p, sf mini silencer, aimpoint pro.
All you need is a single shot, 3D printed plastic gun. If you really want serious Defense... get a bird gun!!! (in before the bird gun numb nutters!)
Seriously though... 16" carbine, sling, light, Mk 262 ammo, and optionally... a Red dot sight.
Seriously though... 16" carbine, sling, light, Mk 262 ammo, and optionally... a Red dot sight.
I've actually considered taking the Aimpoint off my HD carbine and running it with just the irons and the light. The reason being is that indoors (even during the day) or in dim light my crappy eyes perceive the dot as a big jagged-edged blob. Outdoors in daylight I don't have that issue, but it leaves me wondering how much benefit I'm getting from the Aimpoint for HD purposes or use in low light. I haven't quite reached the point where I'm ready to remove it though as I'm not sure how detrimental the "blob" effect would actually be at HD distances.
I've actually considered taking the Aimpoint off my HD carbine and running it with just the irons and the light.
I only have a hard time picking up the sights when lighting up a darker color target. But realistically, at in home distances, I'm probably just using the Front sight and letting them rip.
MorphCross
09-01-18, 12:07
OP, single family dwelling in Arizona? Cacti, big freaking cacti under windows accessible from the ground level. :sarcastic:
On a more serious note follow ggammell's and Elephant's advice. Know the best shooting angles but don't sweat liability as much as it gets harped on. Remember it is your home and you have the advantage of advanced knowledge for placement and position.
In the end living through a violent home invasion is your first priority. Second will be getting a defense attorney lined up for a civil case or even a slightly possible criminal case. As the saying goes, tried by twelve or carried by six?
An easier to pick up blob is much better than hard-to-see iton sights IMO.
Ive run a wet rmr in a pistol and find it easier to get precision shots at distance.
Get the “blob” rds and irons in low light on a timer and see what works best for you.
An easier to pick up blob is much better than hard-to-see iton sights IMO.
Ive run a wet rmr in a pistol and find it easier to get precision shots at distance.
Get the “blob” rds and irons in low light on a timer and see what works best for you.
You might be right, and I wondered the same thing, which is why I have left the Aimpoint on the gun. Unfortunately I don't have access to a place I can shoot in low light at the moment (My range mandates that shooting stops a half-hour before sunset and can't begin before 9am.). I do shoot iron sights a fair bit though and am *relatively* quick with them at close range but in the dark a "blobpoint" might still be faster, particularly when it's 3am and I'm still trying to get my bearings (I don't come out of a deep sleep particularly "switched on")
One thing I will note, if I have something lit up with the Surefire, the dot in the Aimpoint does become crisper, not great, but better. If I have to shoot something in the house in low light the odds are probably that I'd also have the light on it as well which would mitigate some of the blobbing.
I've actually considered taking the Aimpoint off my HD carbine and running it with just the irons and the light. The reason being is that indoors (even during the day) or in dim light my crappy eyes perceive the dot as a big jagged-edged blob. Outdoors in daylight I don't have that issue, but it leaves me wondering how much benefit I'm getting from the Aimpoint for HD purposes or use in low light. I haven't quite reached the point where I'm ready to remove it though as I'm not sure how detrimental the "blob" effect would actually be at HD distances.
Because I am simplistic in nature my go-to HD carbine runs irons only. I know they are always there, always “on” and always work. Since my gun range is on my property I have done a lot of night shooting. I found that with my wml I can make hits just as fast at night as during daylight hours.
Not banging on anyone in particular because this advice has been posted in many threads on the subject:
Can anyone objectively explain to me why so many folks advocate a sling as an absolute must have on an HD rifle?
Not banging on anyone in particular because this advice has been posted in many threads on the subject:
Can anyone objectively explain to me why so many folks advocate a sling as an absolute must have on an HD rifle?
I'm not any type of expert on the subject, but I think the utility of a sling in an HD scenario is thought to be that it allows you to keep the rifle on your person while wrangling children or some other task requiring both hands, and also perhaps make it difficult for the home invader to simply snatch your gun away from you in the event he's waiting around a corner or something and grabs the muzzle of your weapon.
I don't necessarily think a sling *is* a must on an HD long gun, in fact I can see it being an encumbrance. Hell I've snagged a dangling sling on a doorknob when going to put a rifle away in the safe before, imagine doing that under stress in the dark when you think there's someone in your house. However, I do have a sling on on my HD carbine for the simple fact that it's not *only* an HD carbine, the gun might also be brought out to deal with something in the yard, or grabbed in a hurry because we have to flee the house for some reason. Basically it's an all purpose carbine that usually pulls HD duty. The likelihood it may have to be used outdoors is part of the reason I'm reluctant to remove the Aimpoint despite my issues with it in low light that I mentioned a couple posts up.
I am still a novice at this... But, I do keep a sling bundled to the stock in such a way that I can still get a good cheek weld and manipulate everything as well as if it weren’t there.
Didn't the s topic come up recently?
Anyway, when young and dumb I shot maybe half a dozen different calibers in a soundproof room (think movie theater type room) without hearing protection. Not all at once and not mag dumps but over the course of a few years I've shot 38, 9, 45, 380, 44mag, 50AE, 40sw, 7.62 Tok, 556, 7.62x39, 7.62x54.
It was stupid to do but my hearing is fine. I wouldn't over think it when it comes to self defense. People analyze this to death but no one seems to care about hearing protection when out of the house. After all how often are you outdoors vs inside an enclosed space like an office, hallway, store, public bathroom, mall, restaurant, gas station, bank, car....etc..
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Hey macro - if your still around I'll give it a shot:
I have done a load of reading, YouTube views, and discussions with gun shops on the right home defense AR platform. Here is what I've been told by gun shops:
1. "If someone breaks into your home, you wont have time to grab hearing protection, a 300 Blk is the way to go and Subsonic will at least keep your ears from exploding."
Some folks stage electronic earpro on their nightstand, etc. Worth a thought as to whether you think that would work for you. Research indicates that sustained exposure to80-85 decibels will result in hearing loss. 130dbs is usually recognized as the threshold for pain.
My Omega is listed at 119db for 300 BlackOut and 130db for 5.56. That 10db increase means that the actual sound pressure is 100 times greater. We PERCEIVE the sound as twice as loud.
I couldn't find any db ratings for 300 BlackOut unsurpressed (I didn't look very hard) but it looks like the Omega cuts roughly 30db off the 5.56 so we could extrapolate that unsurpressed the 300 BlackOut is 149 db.
149db is not hearing safe for a one time exposure. It is better that 160db, though. Assuming those measurements are at the muzzle, you aren't getting that dosage firing the rifle.
2. "Buy a shot gun."
Not going down that rabbit hole at this time.
3. "Get a 300 Blk, subsonic, suppressed."
As someone indicated, the reason a rifle cartridge is generally a more effective stopper is because of velocity. Subsonic rounds leave a channel essentially the size of the expanded round. As the round traverses the body, there is a temporary wound cavity created by the disruption of liquid in the tissues, this cavity subsides. A rifle cartridge at double to nearly three times the velocity, creates much more damage because the energy transfer into the tissue is violent enough to cause tearing and rupturing of tissue and organs.
Fired at subsonic velocity the 300 BlackOut has increased range over a pistol because of the differences in bullet size and design, but no real appreciable increase in stopping power. Shoot placement, always critical, becomes even more critical with lower velocities.
4. "Get a 5.56, hearing is the least of your concerns if someone breaks in."
True enough. The likelihood of one or two shots resulting in immediate, permanent hearing loss is minor. They make ear pro, and hearing aides. Hopefully, you'll be alive to deal with the potential hearing loss.
5. "Get a Daniel Defense ISR."
This is the buy a Chevy or buy a Ford argument. Largely personal taste and budget.
6. "Get the 300 Blk and make sure its no longer than 8.5 inches, its pointless to have anything longer."
ACC says subsonics may not work as reliably unsurpressed out of an 8 inch barrel.
7. "Get a 5.56 and do subsonic, cheaper ammo but get an adjustable gas block or change your BCG or it wont cycle"
As noted when talking about subsonic vs. rifle velocity, a .22WMR would likely be more effective.
8. "Doesn't matter what you get, your ears will ring and you can cause major ear damage"
Also see above
So I need your help. I am planning on the LWRCI DI 300 Blk 16", or a DD 300 BLK 14.5", load subsonic, wait for a can in a year or so. If there is any other option (AR), please share.
I have @ $2,500 to spend including an optic.
It sounds as if you already have a course plotted. I wouldn't go subsonic for home defense.
One alternative might be to consider not locking in on specific brands.
For example get a complete rifle:
Colt CCU: $1161.76 - https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/colt/le6960-ccu-le6960-talo-special-edition-ar-15-rifle-5-56mm-16in-30rd/ (I'd go this way because of the mid-length gas system)
Colt Trooper: $899.95 - https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Colt-Trooper-M4-LE-Carbine-5-56-16-with-M-Lok-Han-p/gun-le6920-r.htm
And then get a 300 upper:
For example, most folks agree BCM has good quality stuff. Their 300 BlackOut uppers run from $639.00 to $679.00:
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Upper-Receiver-Groups-300-blackout-s/207.htm
Most expensive Colt: $1162.00 + Most expensive BCM 300 Upper: $679.00 = $1841.00; Leaving $650 for your optic.
Unlees your primary reason is deer hunting with a secondary as HD, and your state requires a 30 caliber minimum, I wouldn't focus on 300 as my only option.
I'm not any type of expert on the subject, but I think the utility of a sling in an HD scenario is thought to be that it allows you to keep the rifle on your person while wrangling children or some other task requiring both hands, and also perhaps make it difficult for the home invader to simply snatch your gun away from you in the event he's waiting around a corner or something and grabs the muzzle of your weapon.
I don't necessarily think a sling *is* a must on an HD long gun, in fact I can see it being an encumbrance. Hell I've snagged a dangling sling on a doorknob when going to put a rifle away in the safe before, imagine doing that under stress in the dark when you think there's someone in your house. However, I do have a sling on on my HD carbine for the simple fact that it's not *only* an HD carbine, the gun might also be brought out to deal with something in the yard, or grabbed in a hurry because we have to flee the house for some reason. Basically it's an all purpose carbine that usually pulls HD duty. The likelihood it may have to be used outdoors is part of the reason I'm reluctant to remove the Aimpoint despite my issues with it in low light that I mentioned a couple posts up.
Remember, I just asked why.
in fact I can see it being an encumbrance. Well, I kind of guess that is my point. Unless it is snugged, it can catch on things, make noise, etc.
In other threads we talk about not having time to put on ear pro, and now we have time to don and adjust a sling - granted neither takes much time, but if you don't have time to do one, will you have time to do the other?
I can see the wrangling kids, maybe, but then your weapon is slung and not ready for immediate use.
As for weapon retention, how many of us have ever practiced weapon retention of a slung weapon - from both the good guy and the bad guy side?
make it difficult for the home invader to simply snatch your gun away from you in the event he's waiting around a corner or something and grabs the muzzle of your weapon This is where I go sideways from most folks based on a couple decades of doing and teaching building search.
If you are going to hunt, as opposed to hunker and wait, a long arm is generally more problematic than a pistol - you are one handing the rifle too much. Unless you have practiced with someone on the other end to tell you where you are screwing up you will likely lead with your muzzle at some point - allowing the bad guy to snatch the muzzle, or get the jump on you in the shooting deal.
ETA: Most police officers have some basic rules when it comes to building searches, they include, but aren't limited to: 1) never search alone; 2) long gun covers.
We all have this fantasy of gliding silently through our homes, dealing death to intruders, that ain't the way it works.
Basically it's an all purpose carbine that usually pulls HD duty.
I think this is the likely answer. I got to be honest, one of the main reasons I have slings on most of my rifles is that I can snug it to paste and paint.
kenboyles72
09-02-18, 17:02
You might be right, and I wondered the same thing, which is why I have left the Aimpoint on the gun. Unfortunately I don't have access to a place I can shoot in low light at the moment (My range mandates that shooting stops a half-hour before sunset and can't begin before 9am.). I do shoot iron sights a fair bit though and am *relatively* quick with them at close range but in the dark a "blobpoint" might still be faster, particularly when it's 3am and I'm still trying to get my bearings (I don't come out of a deep sleep particularly "switched on")
One thing I will note, if I have something lit up with the Surefire, the dot in the Aimpoint does become crisper, not great, but better. If I have to shoot something in the house in low light the odds are probably that I'd also have the light on it as well which would mitigate some of the blobbing.
You don't have to go to the range to practice low light situations, just practice dry fire in your house or outside. Place multiple targets around and practice target acquisition, no firing needed. I practice clearing my house with both pistol and AR, both only has a light and irons. So just practice using both sight options and see which one works out best for you.
Remember, I just asked why.
in fact I can see it being an encumbrance. Well, I kind of guess that is my point. Unless it is snugged, it can catch on things, make noise, etc.
In other threads we talk about not having time to put on ear pro, and now we have time to don and adjust a sling - granted neither takes much time, but if you don't have time to do one, will you have time to do the other?
I can see the wrangling kids, maybe, but then your weapon is slung and not ready for immediate use.
As for weapon retention, how many of us have ever practiced weapon retention of a slung weapon - from both the good guy and the bad guy side?
make it difficult for the home invader to simply snatch your gun away from you in the event he's waiting around a corner or something and grabs the muzzle of your weapon This is where I go sideways from most folks based on a couple decades of doing and teaching building search.
If you are going to hunt, as opposed to hunker and wait, a long arm is generally more problematic than a pistol - you are one handing the rifle too much. Unless you have practiced with someone on the other end to tell you where you are screwing up you will likely lead with your muzzle at some point - allowing the bad guy to snatch the muzzle, or get the jump on you in the shooting deal.
ETA: Most police officers have some basic rules when it comes to building searches, they include, but aren't limited to: 1) never search alone; 2) long gun covers.
We all have this fantasy of gliding silently through our homes, dealing death to intruders, that ain't the way it works.
Basically it's an all purpose carbine that usually pulls HD duty.
I think this is the likely answer. I got to be honest, one of the main reasons I have slings on most of my rifles is that I can snug it to paste and paint.
There's a whole lot of common sense and truth in this post. I will always have a sling but I've trained that way for decades, no reason to go slick now!
Captains1911
09-02-18, 19:39
My HD rifle is a 9” BCM 300 BLK SBR with an Omega, 110gr supersonic ammo, light, sling, and red dot. It makes a dandy home defense carbine, I pitty anybody that I hope I never have to use it against. Suppressed supersonic rifle ammo is still considerably quieter than unsuppressed. Also, if you don't want to go the SBR route, the SBA3 brace is about as stock like as you can get with a brace.
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