View Full Version : Man killed carrying inside his own house
I cannot remember if this was discussed here back when it happened but no indictment by the grand jury on the officer who shot a man through his kitchen window. This is local to me and I have not seen any mention of the incident in the national news. Tragic...
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/39040946/grand-jury-clear-walker-co-deputy-of-charges-wife-of-victim-aiming-for-civil-suit
wildcard600
09-06-18, 17:56
What a shit show. I hope she wins the civil suit.
That "cop" should be mopping floors somewhere and not "protecting and serving" homeowners through kitchen windows.
This type of shit is becoming typical.
Coal Dragger
09-06-18, 18:19
What a shit show. I hope she wins the civil suit.
That "cop" should be mopping floors somewhere and not "protecting and serving" homeowners through kitchen windows.
No that sack of shit needs to be swinging from the end of a rope.
wildcard600
09-06-18, 18:25
No that sack of shit needs to be swinging from the end of a rope.
Sorry, I meant "should have been" as in instead of becoming a LEO and murdering people in the middle of the night.
As for what should happen to him now, all I will say is that I hope karma is a thing.
Coal Dragger
09-06-18, 18:26
Yep.
Maybe someone will walk by and get scared of him and assassinate his stupid ass through his kitchen window.
Thank god! At least the officer made it home at the end of his shift.....
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MorphCross
09-06-18, 19:12
In a county that isn't exactly rife with murder (according to UCRF data) the Sheriff Deputies don't seem to be shy about jumping to the most permanent of outcomes.
Yep.
Maybe someone will walk by and get scared of him and assassinate his stupid ass through his kitchen window.
I hope that he truly understands what he did and regrets it every day of a long long life.
Andy
In a county that isn't exactly rife with murder (according to UCRF data) the Sheriff Deputies don't seem to be shy about jumping to the most permanent of outcomes.
And law abiding gun ownership and carry is very common in this area which makes this even more bizarre. I guess as long as the officer can say he was in fear for his life it is okay to gun down whoever and wherever.
SomeOtherGuy
09-06-18, 19:59
Reads like a premeditated murder to me. I have to wonder if this was some kind of murder plot, and the 911 call and everything was just a clever cover story.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-06-18, 20:02
This ‘swat’ing will end when we charge people with murder for false reports where a death occurs. The MIL should be doing hard time right now.
If it ain’t legal for me shoot people in my yard, you shouldn’t be able to shoot from my yard into my house.
Similar to the POS Leo here in Aurora who shot into a house, killing a guy who had just defended his family by shooting an intruder.
And the mother in law.....you'd think adults would act like adults
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The new article posted in the OP does not tell the complete or accurate story. Y’all need to slow your roll and check your facts.
More info here: http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/37168755/update-charges-dropped-against-woman-whose-911-call-triggered-police-shooting
The GBI and the grand jury cleared the deputy because homeowner pointed his gun at the Deputy.
Gun in hand vs gun pointed at you are two VERY different situations.
It is still a shitty situation but mistake of fact shooting happen regularly - that is the real world. The deputy is a victim here. Cleared or not he has to live with killing an innocent person. This was a straight up “SWATing” case and like the recent SWATing case in KS the caller is the villain here.
The deceased’s adult daughter was living with him and his wife due to a separation from her husband. Deputies were responding to a false 911 call from the daughters mother in law claiming the daughter had called and threatened her.
GBI determined PC that the mother in law lied in her 911 call (phone records are easy enough to check) so what I want to know is:
1) why did the judge unilaterally dismiss the false report charge against the MIL ?
2) since the false report resulted in a death why aren’t they charging the MIL with manslaughter ?
And we know the guy pointed the gun because the cop who shot him told us? Or his cop buddies told us? Of course that makes it all OK.
If it ain’t legal for me shoot people in my yard, you shouldn’t be able to shoot from my yard into my house.
It very much "depends." LA SWAT shot at the SLA from outside the house, before they burned it down and it was the right thing to do. And it IS legal to shoot someone in your yard if they are pointing a gun at you or something similar.
It is still a shitty situation but mistake of fact shooting happen regularly - that is the real world. The deputy is a victim here. Cleared or not he has to live with killing an innocent person. This was a straight up “SWATing” case and like the recent SWATing case in KS the caller is the villain here.
The deceased’s adult daughter was living with him and his wife due to a separation from her husband. Deputies were responding to a false 911 call from the daughters mother in law claiming the daughter had called and threatened her.
GBI determined PC that the mother in law lied in her 911 call (phone records are easy enough to check) so what I want to know is:
1) why did the judge unilaterally dismiss the false report charge against the MIL ?
2) since the false report resulted in a death why aren’t they charging the MIL with manslaughter ?
Two really good questions and sounds like there is lots more to the story.
And we know the guy pointed the gun because the cop who shot him told us? Or his cop buddies told us? Of course that makes it all OK.
This is the 21st century - patrol cops wear body cams. Not to mention ballistics and trajectory evidence.
If someone pointed a gun at you and did not respond to verbal ID / commands - what would you do ?
If you are on a gun forum and your answer is anything but shoot you are lying.
It very much "depends." LA SWAT shot at the SLA from outside the house, before they burned it down and it was the right thing to do. And it IS legal to shoot someone in your yard if they are pointing a gun at you or something similar.
Correct.
Again “someone in your yard” and “someone in your yard pointing a gun at you” are two different situations. In the latter situation, it may very well be legal to shoot someone in your yard.
It would be interesting to know the exact lighting conditions and whether or not the deceased had a flashlight.
If he did, would it have been useful in making a positive ID of the uniformed deputy ? If he had been able to ID the deputy would he still have pointed his gun at him ? Likely not.
Correct.
Again “someone in your yard” and “someone in your yard pointing a gun at you” are two different situations. In the latter situation, it may very well be legal to shoot someone in your yard.
It would be interesting to know the exact lighting conditions and whether or not the deceased had a flashlight.
If he did, would it have been useful in making a positive ID of the uniformed deputy ? If he had been able to ID the deputy would he still have pointed his gun at him ? Likely not.
It's shitty all around.
If you are the responding officer and you see "man with a gun" inside the window. Is he pointing it at an intruder or is he the bad guy and about to kill an innocent person? Are you about the kill an innocent man or are you about to rescue the innocent victim in the next four seconds with your decision?
If the gun is pointed at the officer outside, that's a lot easier. And this is why people who initiate "fake gunman calls" need to be charged with murder just like the getaway driver in a 7-11 robbery gone bad takes a murder rap also even though he never got out of the car. People tend to pull as much shit as they can get away with.
Once upon a time "I only drove" got you out of the hot seat, now lots of people think twice because they know it can cost.
Correct.
Again “someone in your yard” and “someone in your yard pointing a gun at you” are two different situations. In the latter situation, it may very well be legal to shoot someone in your yard.
It would be interesting to know the exact lighting conditions and whether or not the deceased had a flashlight.
If he did, would it have been useful in making a positive ID of the uniformed deputy ? If he had been able to ID the deputy would he still have pointed his gun at him ? Likely not.
Everything you have posited is logical and makes sense. But, there are too many variables with all of this and every shooting and situation in life.
Without seeing video or specific details, I try to put myself in these scenarios and determine what I would likely do. I think about how dynamic and quickly these situations unfold and wonder how quickly I would process the information into a reaction.
If multiple people approached me in a calm, yet serious/aggressive demeanor and one individual clear clear commands I could process and follow, I'd like to think I would be able to assess the situation appropriately and act accordingly.
But, if the situation was a bit more dramatic and multiple people with guns advancing aggressively, simultaneously shouting commands at me that were hard to understand let alone process and follow- I might point my gun that way believing I was in imminent danger and needing to defend myself.
Add in bad lighting, possible bad vision, a beer with dinner or being sleep deprived; or multiple variations thereof affecting my decisions... Things get tough.
We're humans, we can only do the best with what we have to work with.
Sucks real bad for the dead guy, also sucks for the LEO that has to live with this. These incidents just suck all around.
I do feel this is an excellent opportunity for discussion of the lack of diversified training and funds most LE departments face and the reality of tactics and emotions changing; especially due to the perception/fear created by LEO's being increasingly targeted by and under attack from fringe groups in society.
Adding in the main stream media, Hollywood and entertainment industries in general fanning the flames of all this, celebrities kneeling, politicians/those looked upon as leaders (Albeit far from it) advocating all sorts of crazy shit, deeper division and divide in this country overall- things are complicated and tensions are really high.
MorphCross
09-07-18, 02:22
Reading between the lines the whole situation was a giant poop show. While I have no idea how Parkinson's home is set up it strikes me as very odd that their kitchen window is at a angle viewable from someone knocking at the door. Second, the Sheriff Deputy was responding to a call where he believes someone is threatening the lives of others would it not behoove them to have their red and blue lightbar strobing? Finally the Judge dropping the case on the mother-in-law just because the victim's family did not show up in court is a complete and total dick move.
This is the 21st century - patrol cops wear body cams. Not to mention ballistics and trajectory evidence.
If someone pointed a gun at you and did not respond to verbal ID / commands - what would you do ?
If you are on a gun forum and your answer is anything but shoot you are lying.
It would be interesting to see the body cam footage, if there is any. This happened in January just after midnight. The window was probably closed, it was light inside the house and dark outside. Could the man inside the home really see anything at all through the window? Could he hear commands to drop the gun with the window closed and his dogs barking?
MorphCross
09-07-18, 03:19
Taking the economics of Walker County Alabama into account I would be surprised if their Sheriff Deputies are even sporting body cams. Not all counties or PDs in some of the more populated regions of the US are running them. KCPD for one.
This is the 21st century - patrol cops wear body cams. Not to mention ballistics and trajectory evidence.
If someone pointed a gun at you and did not respond to verbal ID / commands - what would you do ?
If you are on a gun forum and your answer is anything but shoot you are lying.
And if there was body cam footage showing a justified shooting it would have been released. So guy goes in kitchen and turns on lights, he can no longer see out windows, officer outside in dark sees gun pointed at window and kills innocent man. What would I do, I like to think I would step out of line of fire, knowing the person I am watching cannot see me and observe. But I am not a highly trained police officer who has it drilled into my head that "everyone with a gun is a threat", "the only important thing is that I get to go home at end of watch" and "even if it's a bad shoot, if it's a white guy the union and grand jury will protect me".
sundance435
09-07-18, 10:00
Didn't this thread get locked last time? I think the only thing everyone can agree on is that MIL should be held accountable for something. There have been a handful of cases recently where the "Swat-er"-caller was charged. It's kind of a slam-dunk manslaughter charge, since no reasonable person would believe that making a "dangerous, armed person" call to the police wouldn't result in a situation with a high probability of death or GBH for someone...it gets greyer as you go down the rabbit hole of causation, though, to obtain a conviction - at least as many laws are currently written. The law needs to be updated to reflect these kinds of incidents.
Reading between the lines the whole situation was a giant poop show. While I have no idea how Parkinson's home is set up it strikes me as very odd that their kitchen window is at a angle viewable from someone knocking at the door. Second, the Sheriff Deputy was responding to a call where he believes someone is threatening the lives of others would it not behoove them to have their red and blue lightbar strobing? Finally the Judge dropping the case on the mother-in-law just because the victim's family did not show up in court is a complete and total dick move.
This is a shit show. It seems neither the victim’s family NOR law enforcement showed up for the 911 abuse case. I’ll wager they figured it was a waste of time to charge a murdering POS with a misdemeanor 911 abuse charge. Absolutely no justice there.
I think it’s about time that abuse of 911 laws are updated to better reflect the utter stupidity of our nation. Although, it’s going to be the equivalent of pissing in the wind trying to prove intent in most cases.
ramairthree
09-07-18, 10:55
I really don’t know enough about what happened to judge.
With some videos on other cases here my replies have been:
That was straight up murder, to which everyone agrees.
He handled that professionally, with some agreeing, some not.
Those were a total bunch of assclowns, with some disagreeing so much I was getting PMs about how people stand in a doorway and running up to stand in a doorway, and running up to shoot virtually foxhole periscope style in the doorway after flagging each other and not turning on Eotech s and such were not assclowns.
Good shoot. With most not agreeing.
And that was with videos.
This is the 21st century - patrol cops wear body cams. Not to mention ballistics and trajectory evidence.
If someone pointed a gun at you and did not respond to verbal ID / commands - what would you do ?
If you are on a gun forum and your answer is anything but shoot you are lying.
Well, call me a liar, been there done that. Out side a modular home one midnight, I was looking through a window, covering my partner,who was knocking on the door. A dog in a pen outside was going apeshit. Guy walks into the kitchen with a shotgun, I holler, 'Dave, he's got a gun' at the same time rapping on the window and hollering police. As he was turning towards me I thought to myself, no way he heard me with this fvcking dog barking and rolled out of the way.
Dave and I both scrambled to harder cover, had dispatch call the house and tell the guy to come out. Which he did.
Just saw this story which is possibly even more of a shit show.
How the hell does this happen.
https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/off-duty-dallas-officer-walks-into-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside/287-591760228
titsonritz
09-07-18, 11:51
Just saw this story which is possibly even more of a shit show.
How the hell does this happen.
https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/off-duty-dallas-officer-walks-into-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside/287-591760228
Jesus Christ man!! How hammered was that cop?
Averageman
09-07-18, 12:03
What a mess, how does that happen? I mean, I would think a door had to be unlocked right?
But
What a mess, how does that happen? I mean, I would think a door had to be unlocked right?
I assume. But I mean how do you not notice everything is different.
What a mess, how does that happen? I mean, I would think a door had to be unlocked right?
Well she feared for her life so she is good to go.
Well, call me a liar, been there done that. Out side a modular home one midnight, I was looking through a window, covering my partner,who was knocking on the door. A dog in a pen outside was going apeshit. Guy walks into the kitchen with a shotgun, I holler, 'Dave, he's got a gun' at the same time rapping on the window and hollering police. As he was turning towards me I thought to myself, no way he heard me with this fvcking dog barking and rolled out of the way.
Dave and I both scrambled to harder cover, had dispatch call the house and tell the guy to come out. Which he did.
I guess I am a liar too. I worked midnights for several years and have done this multiple times- watched a suspect through a window where they couldn’t see me before taking my next course of action.
The new article posted in the OP does not tell the complete or accurate story. Y’all need to slow your roll and check your facts.
More info here: http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/37168755/update-charges-dropped-against-woman-whose-911-call-triggered-police-shooting
The GBI and the grand jury cleared the deputy because homeowner pointed his gun at the Deputy.
Gun in hand vs gun pointed at you are two VERY different situations.
Let me guess. The only witnesses to this were the cop or his partners. ROFL.
If someone pointed a gun at you and did not respond to verbal ID / commands - what would you do ?
If you are on a gun forum and your answer is anything but shoot you are lying.
Let's complete the context.
1) Guy with gun does not match description of daughter.
2) House is quiet and lights off and no evidence anyone is awake an threatening to kill kids.
4) I am outside and he is inside and he points gun through kitchen window.
4) No mention of officers engaging him verbally before killing him, that I saw.
No brainer then, I can jump outside of window view faster than I can draw/shoot. Then I ID as police, give verbal commands.
Averageman
09-07-18, 13:54
The Officer gets to live with the everyday for the rest of his life, I hope he shows true remorse for the error that took a good mans life who was only trying to defend his family.
Just saw this story which is possibly even more of a shit show.
How the hell does this happen.
https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/off-duty-dallas-officer-walks-into-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside/287-591760228
DFW cop was convicted of homicide last week, looks like this is the next contestant.
But
I assume. But I mean how do you not notice everything is different.
Soon as I read that, I assumed alcohol may have been involved or something else. Maybe she stopped some place after her shift for a few? Regardless, something about the story does not pass the smell test for me.
titsonritz
09-08-18, 01:37
Soon as I read that, I assumed alcohol may have been involved or something else. Maybe she stopped some place after her shift for a few? Regardless, something about the story does not pass the smell test for me.
I'm going for severe intoxication or love triangle.
Moose-Knuckle
09-08-18, 06:20
So in the first incident did the home owners not have any type of window dressing on the kitchen window; blinds, shade, curtain, ect.?
Pro tip, keep your curtains drawn especially when the sun is down and your interior lights let everyone in the world know what you, your family, and the inside of your house looks like. One can peer out a window without disturbing a window's dressing to see what is what.
I'm going for severe intoxication or love triangle.
No blaming the victim in this event, but who walks around their own place armed but does not lock the door? It's just not adding up. Or, did her key work in his lock? Did she panic and shoot first ask Qs later and he was unarmed? The story lacks crucial details. She was in full uniform, so it seems unlikely he mistook her for a break in, but it could have been a perfect storm of fail. Terrible story.
I just read they are charging her with manslaughter.
RetroRevolver77
09-08-18, 12:41
Did the guy get shot through the window? As in the cop was outside shooting into the home? I have wooden blinds in my house that at night I close everything so you can't see in and have motion detector lights for the yard along with security outer doors. I can see this happening with someone standing on the porch looking in the windows which is exactly why you make it impossible for them to see in.
glockshooter
09-08-18, 18:34
"even if it's a bad shoot, if it's a white guy the union and grand jury will protect me".
Are you freaking serious? That’s probably the biggest douche bag comment I’ve seen in a while. You seem to have lots of opinions about the police and their jobs, but I’m going to bet your just a talking head and to much of a bitch to put yourself out there. How about instead of bitching, complaining, and making BS comments you go find an agency and put some skin in the game. I am not naive about that fact there have been bad police and bad decisions made by police officers, but the simple fact remains that you are more likely to be ass raped by a catholic priest than to have an illegal or excessive force of force applied to you. What people like you fail to understand is what actually happens on a call for service. We are simply responding to a call we are dispatched to. We don’t pick them. We go to the call in good faith with the idea of solving the problem they called us for. I have no specific information about this case, but at least I’m smart enough to not make BS comments about it. The police have to make split second decisions based on what they see. The reason that these officers are cleared in criminal trials is because no officer is held to liable for information they don’t have at the specific time of the incident. Based on your statement you would think the officer went there knowing the call was BS and just wanted to shoot the guy. We don’t have the luxury of sitting on our couch after the fact to make the decision. It absolutely sucks that this person died. However i would bet that this officer believed he was in danger. I’m sure there are plenty of you that believe you would have just sat there and let a person point a gun at you and you wouldn’t doing anything, but the truth behind that is to fold one is your lying to yourself or two your to much of a bitch to put yourself in the position to be the police anyway.
Let's complete the context.
1) Guy with gun does not match description of daughter.
2) House is quiet and lights off and no evidence anyone is awake an threatening to kill kids.
4) I am outside and he is inside and he points gun through kitchen window.
4) No mention of officers engaging him verbally before killing him, that I saw.
No brainer then, I can jump outside of window view faster than I can draw/shoot. Then I ID as police, give verbal commands.
Read the article again.
The officer DID verbally engage.
Guy pointing a gun at you is an immediate issue. Whether or not he fit the description of the daughter became irrelevant as soon as he pointed the gun at the officer.
Just saw this story which is possibly even more of a shit show.
How the hell does this happen.
https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/off-duty-dallas-officer-walks-into-wrong-apartment-kills-man-inside/287-591760228
This should be its own thread - very different circumstances than the incident in the OP.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-09-18, 23:26
The new article posted in the OP does not tell the complete or accurate story. Y’all need to slow your roll and check your facts.
More info here: http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/37168755/update-charges-dropped-against-woman-whose-911-call-triggered-police-shooting
The GBI and the grand jury cleared the deputy because homeowner pointed his gun at the Deputy.
Gun in hand vs gun pointed at you are two VERY different situations.
That article doesn't prove anything and interestingly it leaves out the detail about the interior lights being on. Look at the pics from the original article, there are no security flood lights on the house to illuminate the outside. Also you have a dog barking inside. Unless the laws of physics took New Years Eve off, the home owner wasn't seeing or hearing anything. So maybe the LEO is right up against the window so he could be seen. Are you going to drop out of the sight line or engage? If you were further out, there is no way that you'd be seen, and less that you'd be heard. If the LEO was using a flashlight, even worse.
I bet the gun was pointed in the direction of the window- after the LEO started trying renovating the kitchen.
Oh, and you are there because of a woman hurting her kids, and you shoot a dude.
Cop also has less than a year in.
Oddly enough, my LEOs would call all that "a clue".
So the MIL from hell that called in didn't go to court because the police didn't show up for the hearing?
Squeeze me? What da hell? Love to hear the explanation on that one.
That article doesn't prove anything and interestingly it leaves out the detail about the interior lights being on. Look at the pics from the original article, there are no security flood lights on the house to illuminate the outside. Also you have a dog barking inside. Unless the laws of physics took New Years Eve off, the home owner wasn't seeing or hearing anything. So maybe the LEO is right up against the window so he could be seen. Are you going to drop out of the sight line or engage? If you were further out, there is no way that you'd be seen, and less that you'd be heard. If the LEO was using a flashlight, even worse.
I bet the gun was pointed in the direction of the window- after the LEO started trying renovating the kitchen.
Oh, and you are there because of a woman hurting her kids, and you shoot a dude.
Cop also has less than a year in.
Oddly enough, my LEOs would call all that "a clue".
So the MIL from hell that called in didn't go to court because the police didn't show up for the hearing?
Squeeze me? What da hell? Love to hear the explanation on that one.
Yes to everything above. I really want to avoid making a judgement until I know all the facts, and I realize that I don't, but it sure seems like this will end up being a case of "shoot first and ask questions later".
Seems to be happening too much lately. I get it - cops want to go home after their shift, but so do I, and my life, as well as members of my family (that I try and protect with no end of shift) are no less valuable that the LEOs who work my area.
We've got LEOs going to the wrong address for a no knock raid. We've got swatting where they go kitted out ready to invade Normandy without any confirmation as to what's really going on. We've got the LEO in TX who entered the wrong house thinking it was hers and shoots and kills the man inside, now we have this.
When the LEO shot the old man on the traffic stop after the man reached for his cane, it was tragic, but justified. When the LEO shot the 14 year old kid with the realistic looking AK47, it was tragic but justified.
This one, however, looks bad. The LEO might not be guilty of a crime, but if his or her training did not provide sufficient options other than "I see a gun, I see a bad guy, shoot" maybe someone higher up needs to be held accountable (and I don't just mean the city writes a big check).
Too many LEOs seem to view everyone with a gun as a danger and a bad guy/girl. Well, they all have guns. Do they want to be viewed the same buy the rest us?
Coal Dragger
09-10-18, 10:35
Time to take most LEO’s guns away until they have sufficient experience and have demonstrated good judgement to carry them. Then up the training a qualification requirements to be a firearms equipped LEO.
Yes to everything above. I really want to avoid making a judgement until I know all the facts, and I realize that I don't, but it sure seems like this will end up being a case of "shoot first and ask questions later".............
Too many LEOs seem to view everyone with a gun as a danger and a bad guy/girl. Well, they all have guns. Do they want to be viewed the same buy the rest us?
I don't know where to start in responding to your post, and I am not sure how to phrase things in a way that won't anger a substantial number of folks, but here goes:
First of all law enforcement training is all over the place. In some agencies training is a priority and they do an admirable job, in some agencies training is regarded as a necessary evil, it is done begrudgingly and to the minimum standard - sometimes pencil whipping the mandatory stuff. There is a lot of ground in between those extremes, but in my experience, by and large, there is not enough attention given to the training process.
If you are involved in an industry, or another profession, I'm pretty sure I just described the conditions that exist within your profession or industry, since they are, like law enforcement made up of people. Some wanting to do their very best, some wanting to do the bare minimum, some wanting to cheat to get ahead, and a lot of folks in between the extremes.
But, we are talking about police training as it relates to officer involved shootings.
The first element is the individual officer. One of the guys I started under had a saying he used often 'you can send a jackass to training, all you'll get back is a trained jackass.' The reality is that regardless of training there are underlying traits that guide an officer's behavior. As a general rule the best ethics training, for example, doesn't turn an unethical person into an ethical person. Rather such training steers those who aren't firmly anchored in the proper directions, and reaffirms the way for those who may be wavering.
Ineffective ethics training on the other hand, can steer folks the wrong way. One of the best examples of this was the human relations training I went through in the Marine Corps during the early 70's. I'm sure the Corps meant well, but having angry black NCO's teaching the course was not an effective methodology. It reaffirmed the biases that many of the southern Marines had, and probably steered a lot of on the fence mid-western Marines in the unintended direction.
So the suitability of the person receiving the training, the training curriculum, and the person delivering the training all meld together to get the desired(?) outcome.
The problem LE has in my opinion is fourfold. 1) Not enough LE trainers actually understand force law; 2) Not enough LE trainers understand how to TEACH force law; 3) Too many trainers tell officers what they think officers want to hear in an effort to build the trainer's stature and are unwilling to accept, or don't understand, that they are responsible for what they instruct; 4) Agencies don't pay enough attention to what their trainers are teaching.
A couple years ago there was a discussion on another forum about suicidal subjects and law enforcement response with less-lethal weapons. One officer posted that their agency's policy was that if a suicidal subject doesn't immediately drop a weapon when commanded they immediately use lethal force. I asked the officer if this was their agency's written policy. The reply was that this was what the firearms instructor passed on at their last in-service. I then asked if the agency's legal staff was onboard with that training. Crickets.
This is how bad things happen. Someone in a position of authority (instructor over the class) starts playing to the crowd and lets their mouth overload their rear. Because of their positional authority or charisma, impressionable young troops swallow it whole.
Even if the use-of-force subject matter is taught correctly, the officer has to have some type of practical application testing/training. A couple years ago I was at a state academy in the Northwestern United States. Their student load was much greater than that of our academy and during the initial tour of the facility our 'guide' offhandedly pointed out their simulator room. I asked how many simulators they had, One. I said wow that machine is busy, huh? Came to find out that it is not a requirement that student officers are trained or evaluated on the simulator, 'if we have time. we can run them.'
On the other hand, at our facility, since the early 80's every student has been evaluated on the use-of-force simulator, with results being forwarded to their agency. Almost a decade ago our certification law/regulation was changed to require that officers successful pass such a use-of-force evaluation before certification.
As I said, training is all over the place. Don't get me started on the 'I'm going home at the end of my shift' posturing.
I knew my post would elicit a responce from several LEOs here, and I was hoping it would generate some useful dialogue.
I generally respect and admire the men and women of LE. Some of my closest friends and trainers are cops. Most of the cops I have come to know are honorable and dedicated to helping others, even at great risk to themselves, and they rarely say things like "the most important thing is going home at the end of my shift" (rarely, but not never). I would trust any of them with my life, and more importantly - with the lives of my family. However, what you stated above kind of proves my overall point.
If good training is, at best, a matter of luck, then that's not acceptable. While nothing is perfect, especially people, when we give a group of people the power of life and death over us, we damn well should insist on only the finest training, and the proper use of that training.
We are all to blame for this. Tax payers don't want to fund the most expensive training for people they see as only sitting in their patrol cars and writing tickets. The MSM and the legal industry (at least some of them) Monday morning QB every decision made with the benefit of hindsight. Progressives want affirmative action hires that may not have the temperament, experience, personality or smarts to hold the job (whatever kind job we are speaking about. It's like the old joke - What do you call the person who graduated lowest in their class at medical school? Answer - Doctor.)
We generally don't hear about the great cops who went above and beyond, and didn't shoot the person. We only hear about the ones who did. But this doesn't change the fact that some part of the "system" failed here.
Was this cop unsuited for the job? Maybe.
Was their training sub-standard? Maybe.
Did dispatch not relay all the pertinent info to the cop? Maybe.
Was the cop too inexperienced to be sent on this type of call? Maybe.
There are still too many unknowns, and I doubt if we mere mortals will ever get the whole story, but when we give men and women badges and guns, we better be willing to insist on better training, better candidates for this training, and not be afraid to wash out those who can't or don't cut it.
"Going home at the end of shift" may not be taught in the acadamy, and may be nothing more than an internet phrase, but if it's repeated often enough, and if it's coupled with cops viewing anyone with a gun as being a threat and a bad guy, it will lead to cops going to guns first, when they might not have to.
I'm not saying this cop needs to go to jail, but something better be done soon, on a national level, or the very people LEOs want to support them when so many on the left do not will begin to have second thoughts.
Look back at how the authorities handled Waco. Ruby Ridge. Katrina. The Boston bomber manhunt. The Chris Dorner manhunt. How about the current handling of the Trump / Russia investigation. How many people on this forum still have faith and trust in the the DOJ, the FBI, the other alphabet soup agencies involved?
When people stop trusting the good guys to behave like good guys, we have a serious problem, and it goes well beyond one or two incidents. I don't know what the solution is, but we better start looking for answers.
I don’t think some officers and certainly not the law appreciates than most citizens are not fully spun up on how police respond and what not to do. Or that 90% of us have no concept in our daily life there would be a reason for police to surround storm our house. Or that at 3am, especially 50+ yr olds , may not be hearing very well and are in a state of blurry alarm.
I know domestics are a very dangerous call, but not every call is right and within a home there needs to be some confirmation the subject understands the situation.
Police may not appreciate that a few bad shootings can sour the
populace in spite of several hundred good responses.
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Link to the arrest warrant affidavit in the Dallas PD case:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4853150-Amber-Guyger-arrest-affidavit.html?sidebar=false
titsonritz
09-27-19, 14:32
She's claiming self defense.
Remember that cop-who thought she was entering her own apartment and shot the guy who really lived there? (https://reason.com/2019/09/27/remember-that-cop-who-thought-she-was-entering-her-own-apartment-and-shot-the-guy-who-really-lived-there/)
Exhaustion from working 40 hours in 4 days which is a regular time for hundreds of thousands of people? Yeah OK.
The 911 call...
https://www.theroot.com/ex-dallas-police-officer-amber-guygers-frantic-911-call-1834425337?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
Self defense... from a dude armed with a bowl of ice cream. Is she lactose intolerant?
Fortunately she looks like she was born for corn rows.
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She's claiming self defense.
Remember that cop-who thought she was entering her own apartment and shot the guy who really lived there? (https://reason.com/2019/09/27/remember-that-cop-who-thought-she-was-entering-her-own-apartment-and-shot-the-guy-who-really-lived-there/)
Exhaustion from working 40 hours in 4 days which is a regular time for hundreds of thousands of people? Yeah OK.
The 911 call...
https://www.theroot.com/ex-dallas-police-officer-amber-guygers-frantic-911-call-1834425337?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
Frankly, this officer is not getting a fair trial. First of all, this story has been all over the local news for months, yet the defense was denied a requested change of venue. Secondly, a mistrial should have been declared on the first day because the Dallas County D.A. violated a gag order the day before the trial started - and before the jury was sequestered - by granting an interview about the trial with the local Fox station. And lastly, the Texas Ranger who investigated the incident - and happens to be black - testified that in his professional opinion a crime did not take place. The only problem is that the jury was not allowed to hear that portion of his testimony.
Fortunately she looks like she was born for corn rows.
What does that mean?
It means she looks ghetto.
While folks are up in arms about it, I think the murder charge instead of manslaughter is to ensure she walks. I’m fairly certain with murder you have to prove intent and premeditation, which you never will here.
It means she looks ghetto.
While folks are up in arms about it, I think the murder charge instead of manslaughter is to ensure she walks. I’m fairly certain with murder you have to prove intent and premeditation, which you never will here.
Yeah, I got that, I just didn't know WTF it had to do with anything.
I think overcharging is not an uncommon tactic in cases where the prosecutor's office isn't really gung ho about convicting any person. Probably more often occurs in cases, as you point out, where a police officer is involved and manslaughter would more seemingly get a conviction.
In many cases it boils down to whether jury instructions allow the jury to consider convicting for a lessor offense.
Perhaps I look at these cases from the wrong perspective - absent intent or knowing negligence, I think it is more important that the victim/survivors get compensation civilly than it is for someone to go to jail.
The fact that continual overtime is getting such play will, IMO, make it hard for the PD to separate itself from the officer in this situation, which is definitely a plus for the victim's family.
Just my take.
Even after she testified yesterday I think she will be exonerated. The biggest question will be if she gets reinstated with Dallas or goes to another agency.
Came close to having a similar incident in Knoxville, TN back in July.
https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2019/09/25/university-tennessee-cop-pulled-gun-his-neighbors-why-was-not-charged/2324635001/
hotrodder636
09-28-19, 10:49
Not seeing the specific article, the link just takes me to the home page of the Knox News Sentinel.
I live close to Knoxville and don’t remember hearing about what you describe.
Even after she testified yesterday I think she will be exonerated. The biggest question will be if she gets reinstated with Dallas or goes to another agency.
Came close to having a similar incident in Knoxville, TN back in July.
https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2019/09/25/university-tennessee-cop-pulled-gun-his-neighbors-why-was-not-charged/2324635001/
Not seeing the specific article, the link just takes me to the home page of the Knox News Sentinel.
I live close to Knoxville and don’t remember hearing about what you describe.
Not sure how I was saw it before because I am not a subscriber.
Try this one.
https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/513416961.html
hotrodder636
09-28-19, 11:03
Thank you. Scary stuff in this thread.
Not sure how I was saw it before because I am not a subscriber.
Try this one.
https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/513416961.html
Not sure how I was saw it before because I am not a subscriber.
Try this one.
https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/513416961.html
Wow! I know the Chief, Troy Lane. Bet Assist Chief Lamber waqs helped in his decision making. Troy's pretty no nonsense.
Wow! I know the Chief, Troy Lane. Bet Assist Chief Lamber waqs helped in his decision making. Troy's pretty no nonsense.
Well that's kinda cool.:)
The Knox County Attorney could take lessons from Chief Lane on handling business correctly based on the articles I read on the incident.
Not sure how I was saw it before because I am not a subscriber.
Try this one.
https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/513416961.html
I strongly suspect alcohol was involved in that one.
I strongly suspect alcohol was involved in that one.
That would be my guess, too.
So he (UTOD asst chief) pulls a gun on the homeowner and gets fired but no charges? I have a feeling a non-LEO would not get cut the slack for pulling a gun on an innocent, and being “mixed up” would be irrelevant for a defense, no?
Same with the Dallas officer. Would a non-LEO have any chance of using self-defense in court? Or get a friendly 1st degree charge which will never be upheld since there obviously was not premeditation? Are we not ALL held to account for our actions, especially with guns whether we take the time to doublecheck our assumptions or we are drunk or not? Could I go to the wrong house, shoot the guy watching TV and then claim self defense because I worked an extra shift and was drinking and thought it was my house although it had different furniture, tv, curtains, photos on the wall?
Sounds like a preposterous defense and hopefully the jury uses common sense and applies the law equally.
What a shit show. I hope she wins the civil suit.
That "cop" should be mopping floors somewhere and not "protecting and serving" homeowners through kitchen windows.
But, at least he went home safe....
So he (UTOD asst chief) pulls a gun on the homeowner and gets fired but no charges? I have a feeling a non-LEO would not get cut the slack for pulling a gun on an innocent, and being “mixed up” would be irrelevant for a defense, no?
Okay, a couple of factual errors, at least according to the story:
The Assistant Chief wasn't fired, he resigned. I've known Chief Lane since he was a patrol officer, there is no doubt in my mind that he strongly suggested that would be the proper course of action. I'd also bet that the last thing the University wanted to do was fire the guy if he would go away quietly.
Second regarding charges, once again, according to the story:
A spokesperson for the Knox County District Attorney's Office said in a text message to WVLT News that "We declined prosecution and sent the case file investigating University of Tennessee Police Department assistant chief Keith Lambert back to the Knox County Sheriff's Office.
We don't know for sure what happened, it could be a case of 'We've work with so and so for 32 years, this is completely out of the norm...' and it could also be a case of the parties involved not wanting to press charges after they've found the guy has resigned. As I said, we don't know.
Regarding the other assertions, what happened was a tragedy with no malice intended, I would like to believe that any person in the same circumstances would be, at the most charged with manslaughter.
The difference in this case is that the private citizen doesn't probably have a city on the hook for damages, based on the emphasis given to overtime and fatigue.
You might also remember that the lead Texas DPS investigator said there wasn't a crime, and the DA decided to prosecute anyways. The jury wasn't allowed to hear that portion of his testimony.
I have stated that overcharging is something that I believe is sometimes done. I don't believe that is the case here, apparently the DA is really trying to convict this officer, thus the squelching of the TxDPS investigator's testimony, and the attempts to 'dirty' the officer up with the info about her texting.
I agree, I hope the jury uses common sense and applies the evidence they've heard IAW their oath.
You are right the DA is not holding back. I just read that the Jury will have the option to decide on murder, manslaughter or negligent Homicide I think it was.
What the judge disallowed was the investigators opinion on whether a crime was committed.
Personally it baffles me as to how a crime was not committed. This was not an accident. This was poor judgement. Before we shoot someone we should be damn sure of the facts. I think the department has stated she did not follow procedure for encounter of armed person in a house. She just assumed she knew what she was doing in spite of different look of the apartment interior.
To me this is like police SWATTing the wrong address. That should be a crime by the police commander.
Govt employees seem to think loss of job is the ultimate penalty and no criminal charges are needed. And I know the law exempts govt employees from much that regular citizens are held to account. That is not right and especially so in the use of lethal force.
We’ll see what the jury decides. But that is not going to give the public a warm fuzzy if a police officer gets a pass for shooting an innocent person in their own home watching TV. Are we living in a police state now in which every citizen should expect they could be accosted anywhere at anytime with no knock shoot first entries? If I engaged in violent crime I would expect that. If I am a law abiding citizen I don’t think I should have to expect to immediately surrender to someone busting into my house. She did not even identify as a police officer from what I read.
“Making a mistake” should be no excuse for intentionally shooting someone. When we shoot we should be damn sure of the circumstances and be ready for the consequences if we decide poorly. I’ve seen “thought it was my home” mistakes and they were quickly resolved with a few words and no guns presented. A “burglar” sitting watching TV eating ice cream ought to give a moment pause for reflection instead of “immediate deadly threat must neutralize!”.
I think in KY and a lot of other states it would be manslaughter, but Texas seems to be a bit different.
https://www.medlinfirm.com/blog/the-difference-between-manslaughter-and-murder-in-texas/
I have read the example that had she hit someone on the other side of the wall then that would be manslaughter.
What does that mean?Its merely a cheap shot at what her prison photo might look like.
But yes it really doesnt have anything to do with the actual nuts and bolts of the situation.
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I think in KY and a lot of other states it would be manslaughter, but Texas seems to be a bit different.
https://www.medlinfirm.com/blog/the-difference-between-manslaughter-and-murder-in-texas/
I have read the example that had she hit someone on the other side of the wall then that would be manslaughter.
Interesting article. From a literal reading she could be found guilty of murder since she intentionally used deadly force. But sounds like even manslaughter carries heavy prison time.
Okay, a couple of factual errors, at least according to the story:
The Assistant Chief wasn't fired, he resigned. I've known Chief Lane since he was a patrol officer, there is no doubt in my mind that he strongly suggested that would be the proper course of action. I'd also bet that the last thing the University wanted to do was fire the guy if he would go away quietly.
Second regarding charges, once again, according to the story:
A spokesperson for the Knox County District Attorney's Office said in a text message to WVLT News that "We declined prosecution and sent the case file investigating University of Tennessee Police Department assistant chief Keith Lambert back to the Knox County Sheriff's Office.
We don't know for sure what happened, it could be a case of 'We've work with so and so for 32 years, this is completely out of the norm...' and it could also be a case of the parties involved not wanting to press charges after they've found the guy has resigned. As I said, we don't know.
Regarding the other assertions, what happened was a tragedy with no malice intended, I would like to believe that any person in the same circumstances would be, at the most charged with manslaughter.
The difference in this case is that the private citizen doesn't probably have a city on the hook for damages, based on the emphasis given to overtime and fatigue.
You might also remember that the lead Texas DPS investigator said there wasn't a crime, and the DA decided to prosecute anyways. The jury wasn't allowed to hear that portion of his testimony.
I have stated that overcharging is something that I believe is sometimes done. I don't believe that is the case here, apparently the DA is really trying to convict this officer, thus the squelching of the TxDPS investigator's testimony, and the attempts to 'dirty' the officer up with the info about her texting.
I agree, I hope the jury uses common sense and applies the evidence they've heard IAW their oath.
The damning parts of the texting, in my opinion, were stopping first aid efforts twice to send texts to her paramour and then deleting them.
The light, 100% accurate, of thinking she was where she was supposed to be story involves her claims of believing she had an intruder inside while she was still outside and prior to opening the door. That might work for her only possible thought on what was on the inside being an intruder if she lived alone and was a home owner, but that goes out the window considering she was a renter and the owner maintains certain entry rights.
The more involved version on a landlord's right of entry is from comments I have read from people claiming to watch the entire proceeding where the information that she was expecting building maintenance to enter her apartment allegedly came up.
The damning parts of the texting, in my opinion, were stopping first aid efforts twice to send texts to her paramour and then deleting them.
The light, 100% accurate, of thinking she was where she was supposed to be story involves her claims of believing she had an intruder inside while she was still outside and prior to opening the door. That might work for her only possible thought on what was on the inside being an intruder if she lived alone and was a home owner, but that goes out the window considering she was a renter and the owner maintains certain entry rights.
The more involved version on a landlord's right of entry is from comments I have read from people claiming to watch the entire proceeding where the information that she was expecting building maintenance to enter her apartment allegedly came up.
I will always give LE the benefit of the doubt and need to be convinced they f-ed up vs jumping to the conclusion they f-ed, but she really f-ed and has no business being in LE and that fact cost someone their life. In this rare instance, I would understand why the community would be most unhappy should she not get convicted of at least manslaughter. Sadly, per usual, media is doing its best to make this about race and play that card to get people revved up.
Yeah, playing the race card when there is zero reference or evidence of it in such a tragic situation for everyone involved is low, real low and dirty. It will needlessly inflame feelings. Hopefully the trial stays focused on the actions and evidence and does not get derailed by race baiting.
Notification of maintenance and how she was not factual on that beginning at app. 3:14:00
https://youtu.be/I3uIlJ-nRKM
Verdict in, Guyger guilt of murder.
Averageman
10-01-19, 11:34
Verdict in, Guyger guilt of murder.
I am a bit surprised, but I can't say it isn't possible that it was deserved.
Coal Dragger
10-01-19, 11:57
Good, laws either apply equally or they don’t.
This dumb ass officer played stupid games and won stupid prizes.
Not seeing how this meets the threshold of murder so looks like a fail to me.
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Coal Dragger
10-01-19, 12:09
Well if the situation had been reversed and the victim accidentally entered her house and shot a female officer dead in her own home, do you think he would have been charged with murder? I think there is a 100% chance he would have been.
So the law has been applied equally here, which is nice. Off to prison for her.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-01-19, 12:12
Not seeing how this meets the threshold of murder so looks like a fail to me.
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She went into another person's apartment and shot a guy eating ice cream on his couch. She "mistakenly" went into the wrong apartment, then somehow didn't notice everything was different when she opened the door , and then her first reaction was I need to shoot that guy on the couch eating icecream. Then decided to text her boyfriend a few times instead of taking care of the innocent guy she just shot.
FFS, I am certainly glad she is not a cop anymore as she was a ticking time bomb just waiting to get scared and kill someone.
Not seeing how this meets the threshold of murder so looks like a fail to me.
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Def of Murder seems tad different in TX so maybe it fits:
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm
And even on the win, have to make sure to keep the race baiting up:
"Ben Crump, a civil attorney for the family of Botham Jean, said in an emailed statement after the verdict: “Nothing will bring Botham back, but today his family has found some measure of justice. What happened on September 6, 2018, is clear to everyone: This officer saw a black man and shot, without reason and without justification."
https://www.officer.com/investigations/news/21108538/jury-finds-former-dallas-police-officer-guilty-of-murder
Napolitano said it might get reduced...wish I caught it all but he seemed to have a beef with motive & the murder conviction.
I guess the judge can reduce to a lesser from the jury in tx??
Not seeing how this meets the threshold of murder so looks like a fail to me.
Intent - she said under oath that she intended to kill him. Kudos to her for telling the truth, but she cooked her own goose.
Intent - she said under oath that she intended to kill him. Kudos to her for telling the truth, but she cooked her own goose.
What I have read as an explanation of Texas law was hitting the guy she was aiming at satisfied the murder charge, she just confirmed it. Manslaughter (again, from explanations I have read) would have been the charge had she hit someone on tbe other side of the wall she couldn't see.
This brings up a lot of other issues not likely to be addressed including how someone so inept got placed on an elite response unit and how her co-workers let her roam around the crime scene at will plus shut off recording devices.
I think the failure to render any sort of aid / delay in calling 911 and her actions immediately after the shooting also weighed very heavy on the jury / murder conviction.
Intent - she said under oath that she intended to kill him. Kudos to her for telling the truth, but she cooked her own goose.
That’s not what intent in the context of premeditation means at all.
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https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm
Sec. 19.02. MURDER. ..........
(b) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;
(2) intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual;
And even on the win, have to make sure to keep the race baiting up:
"Ben Crump, a civil attorney for the family of Botham Jean, said in an emailed statement after the verdict: “Nothing will bring Botham back, but today his family has found some measure of justice. What happened on September 6, 2018, is clear to everyone: This officer saw a black man and shot, without reason and without justification."
This is what is particularly sad about America today. It is just possible that everything thing isn't racially motivated.
This is what is particularly sad about America today. It is just possible that everything thing isn't racially motivated.
Yes, and I it is unseemly for celebration. She was found guilty as it seemed she was. But I never got the sense she was callous or without remorse. A man’s life was taken, but her careless mistake in using deadly force also ruined her life, and two families will forever mourn the consequences of those few moments in time. Nothing to celebrate.
That’s not what intent in the context of premeditation means at all.
Did not say it was premeditated. When asked by the prosecutor if she intended to kill him she answered yes.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/30/amber-guyger-botham-jean-trial-neighbor-shot-
"The state district judge Tammy Kemp gave detailed instructions to the jury and told them they could consider a verdict on the lesser charge of manslaughter if they felt Guyger acted “recklessly” rather than with intent – though Guyger testifed that she shot to kill, in line with her police training."
Crazy, and here I thought we (LE or otherwise) just carried guns with the expectation of scaring folks if they actually end up being utilized.
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The judge gave the jury an out with the choice of either manslaughter or murder. The jury that heard the testimony (I didn't) picked murder.
Crazy, and here I thought we (LE or otherwise) just carried guns with the expectation of scaring folks if they actually end up being utilized.
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Sans pulling the trigger, what justification would she have to scare him with her pistol after she invaded his home?
I was highlighting the absurdity of trying to rationalize anything other than lethal force when a firearm gets employed and a trigger pulled.
But it’s cool because F the police, especially the racist ones at that [emoji849]
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Well if the situation had been reversed and the victim accidentally entered her house and shot a female officer dead in her own home, do you think he would have been charged with murder? I think there is a 100% chance he would have been.
So the law has been applied equally here, which is nice. Off to prison for her.
To me, this is the crux of the issue. She was off duty, and thus has to be held to the same standard as Jo Citizen. (as that was who she was at the time).
If any of us had done this we would be buried under the jail.
All that said, I have to wonder if some substance was not involved. I'm sure they checked, but even identical apartments are decorated differently, smell different, etc. The fact she did not pick up on that is problematic. Probably playing pokemon
Whiskey_Bravo
10-01-19, 15:13
I was highlighting the absurdity of trying to rationalize anything other than lethal force when a firearm gets employed and a trigger pulled.
But it’s cool because F the police, especially the racist ones at that [emoji849]
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Settle down man. No need to go full triggered. She royally effed up and is going to pay for it as she should. No one is bashing LEOs.
I can't stress this enough. She went to the wrong door. No problem that happens. Opened that door and then didn't notice it was not her place. Not sure how that is possible but ok. Then she shot a guy eating ice cream on his own couch. Not charging her, not holding a gun, not even standing close to the door..... sitting at the couch eating some ice cream in an apartment that was his and didn't look like hers. Then if that wasn't good enough she decided to stop rendering aid a few times to text her married boyfriend.
Everyone here in Dallas is now safer with her off the streets and no longer being around a gun let alone be in any type of authority position.
Again, this has nothing to do with F the police and everything to do with holding everyone to at least the same standards. It could be argued that given her position as a LEO she should be held to high standard.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-01-19, 15:15
but even identical apartments are decorated differently, smell different, etc. The fact she did not pick up on that is problematic. Probably playing pokemon
Agreed. Even if the outside looked the same the inside is different. She missed every single detail telling her it wasn't her apartment accept the guy eating ice cream on the couch.
I was highlighting the absurdity of trying to rationalize anything other than lethal force when a firearm gets employed and a trigger pulled.
But it’s cool because F the police, especially the racist ones at that [emoji849]
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She made the choice to shoot. Apparently murder and man slaughter charges in Texas are not the same as in most states.
I think Illinois may be the same if memory serves correctly about another shooting incident. A few years back, a police officer was driving along and someone in a crowd yelled something at him and he responded by firing a shot out of his car which killed a member of the group which got him charged with man slaughter. Not long after the court session started the judge tossed the case because the officer intended to shoot someone while man slaughter required an unintended outcome.
I don't think the juries vote F the police, more like not F'ing a guy sitting in his home eating ice cream.
Are you troubled by her co-workers letting her run around the crime scene unfettered (and armed) along with cutting off recording devices? Or the mechanisms that got her placed in an elite unit?
Guilty.
I hope she gets SERIOUS time.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FqcZ1A1peO4u2c%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1
They are tearing her character apart now...reading off old texts: negative comments about MLK & the like. Sentence should be soon.
Edit...saying sentencing will be delayed till tomorrow??
Guilty.
I hope she gets SERIOUS time.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FqcZ1A1peO4u2c%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1
They are tearing her character apart now...reading off old texts: negative comments about MLK & the like.
Who is "they"?
They are tearing her character apart now...reading off old texts: negative comments about MLK & the like. Sentence should be soon.
They are probably concerned, like some of us are, that she'll get some limp dikc 5 year sentence, which really means out in 2.5-3.
She needs a solid 20+ behind bars.
I'm not a cop hater but just because you pin on a fracking badge & gun for a living doesn't make you always right or untouchable by the law.
Especially off duty, you are just Joe-citizen.
MountainRaven
10-01-19, 22:49
Agreed. Even if the outside looked the same the inside is different. She missed every single detail telling her it wasn't her apartment accept the guy eating ice cream on the couch.
She missed every single detail including the guy eating ice cream on the couch.
IIRC, during the officer's testimony, she said that she heard someone on the other side of the door and drew her gun before she even entered the apartment. Which doesn't help with the whole, "looking to kill someone," look.
Averageman
10-01-19, 23:32
She missed every single detail including the guy eating ice cream on the couch.
IIRC, during the officer's testimony, she said that she heard someone on the other side of the door and drew her gun before she even entered the apartment. Which doesn't help with the whole, "looking to kill someone," look.
On the news today they said it was department policy to stop and call back up as soon as she thought someone was on the other side of the door.
This detail and the fact that after she shot the guy, she called her boyfriend rather than calling in the shooting or rendering aid.
All of that evidence buried her.
I am very surprised if there weren't drugs or alcohol involved.
They are probably concerned, like some of us are, that she'll get some limp dikc 5 year sentence, which really means out in 2.5-3.
She needs a solid 20+ behind bars.
I'm not a cop hater but just because you pin on a fracking badge & gun for a living doesn't make you always right or untouchable by the law.
Especially off duty, you are just Joe-citizen.
Really? Was the shooting premeditated? Did she open the door with the intent to shoot the guy on the couch?
I would say the same thing about similar situations if the shooter wasn't an LEO. She simply did not open the door with evil intent.
Did she operate with the same standard of care we should expect from a police officer? No. IMO she breached the standard of care for a rudimentarily trained civilian.
I think that a 'limp dick 5 year sentence' is probably overkill. She needs to spend some time since she's been convicted, and the family needs some degree of monetary compensation, although I'm not sure how much is appropriate, as he was a single guy, apparently with no kids.
I would say the same thing if she had been a bus driver or steel worker coming home after a long shift. Difference is, the family might get a finding against a bus driver or mechanic in a civil suit, but probably not collect much. In this case, the citizens of Dallas will be footing that bill.
I was shocked when she said she shot to kill him, who the heck prepped her? Police use force to stop threats. Unfortunately, immediately incapacitating shots are often fatal, but stopping the subject is the goal.
I was shocked when she said she shot to kill him, who the heck prepped her? Police use force to stop threats. Unfortunately, immediately incapacitating shots are often fatal, but stopping the subject is the goal.
I cringed when I saw that statement- she may as well convicted herself. That is basic policing 101- force is used to stop a threat, not "to kill". Heck, that concept was driven into us during our basic academy classes.
Settle down man. No need to go full triggered. She royally effed up and is going to pay for it as she should. No one is bashing LEOs.
I can't stress this enough. She went to the wrong door. No problem that happens. Opened that door and then didn't notice it was not her place. Not sure how that is possible but ok. Then she shot a guy eating ice cream on his own couch. Not charging her, not holding a gun, not even standing close to the door..... sitting at the couch eating some ice cream in an apartment that was his and didn't look like hers. Then if that wasn't good enough she decided to stop rendering aid a few times to text her married boyfriend.
Everyone here in Dallas is now safer with her off the streets and no longer being around a gun let alone be in any type of authority position.
Again, this has nothing to do with F the police and everything to do with holding everyone to at least the same standards. It could be argued that given her position as a LEO she should be held to high standard.
She missed every single detail including the guy eating ice cream on the couch.
IIRC, during the officer's testimony, she said that she heard someone on the other side of the door and drew her gun before she even entered the apartment. Which doesn't help with the whole, "looking to kill someone," look.Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't she on the wrong floor too? Didn't she live one up from the victim? Along with him having a red doormat out front? I remember reading this early on but haven't followed the case since.
If that's true it would mean she not only missed the fact that everything looked different in his apartment but also that she pushed the wrong button on the elevator, and the red doormat in front of the door
Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 05:48
I was shocked when she said she shot to kill him, who the heck prepped her? Police use force to stop threats. Unfortunately, immediately incapacitating shots are often fatal, but stopping the subject is the goal.
I was pretty shocked by that as well. I would have thought she would have been prepped to say "stop the threat" or something along those lines.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 05:54
On the news today they said it was department policy to stop and call back up as soon as she thought someone was on the other side of the door.
This detail and the fact that after she shot the guy, she called her boyfriend rather than calling in the shooting or rendering aid.
All of that evidence buried her.
I am very surprised if there weren't drugs or alcohol involved.
This. I don't buy the "she was tired after a shift" thing.
If she drew her gun before even opening the door it means she wasn't in zombie mode and not noticing anything. But she somehow still didn't notice the wrong apartment number or doormat outside. Then didn't notice anything inside. She obviously popped the door with gun up and shot the first person she saw inside. Then called/texted her boyfriend.
From what I am getting from reading Texas laws(and I am not an attorney), if she had been intending to break in to his apartment and then shot and killed him it would have likely been considered capital murder.
Also, had their roles (as this has actually played out) been reversed, capital murder would have had a good chance of being what they would have charged him with due to her LE status.
She walked into someone else’s apartment with a gun drawn and shot a man eating ice cream on his couch. That’s murder here in Texas.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't she on the wrong floor too? Didn't she live one up from the victim? Along with him having a red doormat out front? I remember reading this early on but haven't followed the case since.
If that's true it would mean she not only missed the fact that everything looked different in his apartment but also that she pushed the wrong button on the elevator, and the red doormat in front of the door
I think you got everything except the elevator and floor. Parking garage and she drove to the wrong floor 4th, while she lived on the 3rd.
Also, there were allegedly other differences (planters or lack of) between the floors when walking from the garage to the apartment.
A day after emotional verdict, more witnesses will testify in the sentencing phase of ex-cop Amber Guyger
By Ashley Killough and Ray Sanchez, CNN Updated 7:09 AM ET, Wed October 2, 2019
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/amber-guyger-trial-sentencing/index.html
"With the murder conviction, Guyger, 31, now faces up to life in prison."
It is in the best interests of both the State and the defense that a criminal trial be conducted in a fair manner. The Dallas D. A., and the presiding judge used this circus to create more political collateral for themselves. This trial was not conducted fairly for the following reasons:
A) a change of venue should have been granted because of the overwhelming amount of television coverage regarding this incident. It got so bad that the judge issued a gag order, which was violated by the prosecutor's office more than once.
B) a mistrial should have been declared on day one because the Dallas D. A. gave an interview specifically about the trial with Fox4 the day before the trial started. This interview was a blatant violation of the gag order, and occurred before the jury was sworn in and thus under the obligation to not watch the news.
C) the jury was prevented from hearing key testimony from the lead investigator, who happens to be a black Texas Ranger.
For the above reasons I would be surprised if this decision is not overturned on appeal.
It is in the best interests of both the State and the defense that a criminal trial be conducted in a fair manner. The Dallas D. A., and the presiding judge used this circus to create more political collateral for themselves. This trial was not conducted fairly for the following reasons:
A) a change of venue should have been granted because of the overwhelming amount of television coverage regarding this incident. It got so bad that the judge issued a gag order, which was violated by the prosecutor's office more than once.
B) a mistrial should have been declared on day one because the Dallas D. A. gave an interview specifically about the trial with Fox4 the day before the trial started. This interview was a blatant violation of the gag order, and occurred before the jury was sworn in and thus under the obligation to not watch the news.
C) the jury was prevented from hearing key testimony from the lead investigator, who happens to be a black Texas Ranger.
For the above reasons I would be surprised if this decision is not overturned on appeal.
I still think she will be set free and either end up back on Dallas PD or another agency.
As far as the ranger goes, from what I have read (again, not an attorney) quashing his statement was legit because it was his opinion. That being said, he stated "Based on the totality of the circumstances, based on the complete investigation, no sir." in saying she was reasonable to have her belief of what was going on.
And that is belief, singular, because confronting an intruder was the only thing that came to mind when she heard Jean inside his apartment. That would have have been an interesting enough sole thought considering her landlord/their representatives have right of entry at any time for emergencies, but on top of that she had been notified to expect maintenance personnel in her apartment during the time frame of the shooting.
It is in the best interests of both the State and the defense that a criminal trial be conducted in a fair manner. The Dallas D. A., and the presiding judge used this circus to create more political collateral for themselves. This trial was not conducted fairly for the following reasons:
A) a change of venue should have been granted because of the overwhelming amount of television coverage regarding this incident. It got so bad that the judge issued a gag order, which was violated by the prosecutor's office more than once.
B) a mistrial should have been declared on day one because the Dallas D. A. gave an interview specifically about the trial with Fox4 the day before the trial started. This interview was a blatant violation of the gag order, and occurred before the jury was sworn in and thus under the obligation to not watch the news.
C) the jury was prevented from hearing key testimony from the lead investigator, who happens to be a black Texas Ranger.
For the above reasons I would be surprised if this decision is not overturned on appeal.
Did the defense ever request one? I'm doubting the results will be different, but there does seem little chance of her getting a fair trial in Dallas.
Did the defense ever request one? I'm doubting the results will be different, but there does seem little chance of her getting a fair trial in Dallas.
Yes they did. The request was made before jury selection began.
I can promise you that if the roles were reversed, with Mr. Jean being the off duty officer and Ms. Guyger being the victim, that there would have been a lot of people in Dallas County questioning the fairness of the trial, and rightfully so.
10 years...i reckon we may see some riots for only a decade.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 16:57
Murder or not it was a pretty big "mistake". Should she be punished for it and if so how long? If I make the mistake of drinking 6 beers instead of 2 and then driving and I kill a guy eating ice cream on a park bench should I be punished? I didn't mean to kill him. How long should my punishment be?
I realize that the above scenario isn't the same but both are large mistakes that result in an innocent person losing their life. Killing someone in their own apartment and saying oops isn't any different than drinking an extra couple of drinks and saying you didn't mean too.
As someone mentioned above. She was told to expect maintenance. Why was her first reaction to hearing noise and the door being ajar(we will ignore her not noticing she was on the wrong floor, different door mat, decorations, etc) to draw her gun and enter the apartment and shoot the first thing she saw? Why did she ignore protocol to call for backup? Why did she text her boyfriend first after she shot someone she didn't know in an apartment that wasn't hers. Why was she allowed to hang out at the crime scene after the fact? Too much of this doesn't add up to just being a mistake. Drugs or alcohol would seem to help put the puzzle together.
Really? Was the shooting premeditated? Did she open the door with the intent to shoot the guy on the couch?
I would say the same thing about similar situations if the shooter wasn't an LEO. She simply did not open the door with evil intent.
Did she operate with the same standard of care we should expect from a police officer? No. IMO she breached the standard of care for a rudimentarily trained civilian.
I think that a 'limp dick 5 year sentence' is probably overkill. She needs to spend some time since she's been convicted, and the family needs some degree of monetary compensation, although I'm not sure how much is appropriate, as he was a single guy, apparently with no kids.
I would say the same thing if she had been a bus driver or steel worker coming home after a long shift. Difference is, the family might get a finding against a bus driver or mechanic in a civil suit, but probably not collect much. In this case, the citizens of Dallas will be footing that bill.
I was shocked when she said she shot to kill him, who the heck prepped her? Police use force to stop threats. Unfortunately, immediately incapacitating shots are often fatal, but stopping the subject is the goal.
Agreed.
Murder is a bullshit outcome.
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She walked into someone else’s apartment with a gun drawn and shot a man eating ice cream on his couch. That’s murder here in Texas.
For as much as folks croak about the virtues of Texas it has some stupid laws on the books.
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Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 17:02
[QUOTE=jsbhike;2772801]I still think she will be set free and either end up back on Dallas PD or another agency.
Being set free with zero time would be bad enough. Ending up back on the DPD or any other for that matter would be a travesty. Even if you don't believe she committed a crime and shouldn't serve any time she has shown very poor judgement and reasoning skills.
As someone mentioned above. She was told to expect maintenance. Why was her first reaction to hearing noise and the door being ajar(we will ignore her not noticing she was on the wrong floor, different door mat, decorations, etc) to draw her gun and enter the apartment and shoot the first thing she saw? Why did she ignore protocol to call for backup? Why did she text her boyfriend first after she shot someone she didn't know in an apartment that wasn't hers. Why was she allowed to hang out at the crime scene after the fact? Too much of this doesn't add up to just being a mistake. Drugs or alcohol would seem to help put the puzzle together.
For the record policies exist to protect the agency.
The circumstances of this incident aside I wouldn’t be wasting time calling for back up in my own damn house. I don’t think anyone else would either, LE or not.
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Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 17:04
For as much as folks croak about the virtues of Texas it has some stupid laws on the books.
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Every state has stupid laws on the books.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-02-19, 17:09
For the record policies exist to protect the agency.
The circumstances of this incident aside I wouldn’t be wasting time calling for back up in my own damn house. I don’t think anyone else would either, LE or not.
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Would you have at least verified it was your door? Would you have shot the first thing you saw? Me? I would probably double check it was my door I was about to breech before I pulled the gun and shot the first thing I saw moving. Judgement and reasoning skills should be a part of the job.
When a warrant is served or hell, even a no knock raid the guys breaching the door don't just shoot everyone they see.
You think she is going to appeal & win with no time / set free, much less re-hired in an LE application??
She should be clicking her heels for what the jury dished out...10 years for murder??
[QUOTE=jsbhike;2772801]I still think she will be set free and either end up back on Dallas PD or another agency.
Being set free with zero time would be bad enough. Ending up back on the DPD or any other for that matter would be a travesty. Even if you don't believe she committed a crime and shouldn't serve any time she has shown very poor judgement and reasoning skills.
[QUOTE=jsbhike;2772801]I still think she will be set free and either end up back on Dallas PD or another agency.
Being set free with zero time would be bad enough. Ending up back on the DPD or any other for that matter would be a travesty. Even if you don't believe she committed a crime and shouldn't serve any time she has shown very poor judgement and reasoning skills.
I think she committed a crime, but there appears to have been steps taken to try to help her avoid consequences.
In all honesty, I assumed the murder charge (before reading the explanation of murder vs. manslaughter in Texas )was intended to get it tossed and I still have to wonder about not changing the venue and the prosecutor doing the interview.
I have came back to lodgings (including one that is configured similar to a town house and I happened to be the only person staying in the building that night) to find maintenance people inside....even heard them before I opened the door. While an intruder was a thought, it wasn't my only possible scenario and I have never even lived someplace with a landlord.
For as much as folks croak about the virtues of Texas it has some stupid laws on the books.
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That is murder anywhere. WTF are you talking about?
That B!tch needs to fry. If she did that and he shot the dumb drunk B!tch he would be up on Capitol muder for shooting a cop...... even a retarded cop.
She needs to be set on fire in the courtroom. I hope she get set to gen pop and shanked like she deserves.
F@ck her.
For as much as folks croak about the virtues of Texas it has some stupid laws on the books.
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You won’t find any argument here. I’d be more interested in addressing the absolutely laughable standard of PID and “feeling threatened” that LEO’s are offered. Almost every shooting I’ve seen has standards of identification that wouldn’t have flown for my Scout/Sniper platoon in Mahmudiyah in the mid 2000’s, but somehow it works in Dallas.
That is murder anywhere. WTF are you talking about?
That B!tch needs to fry. If she did that and he shot the dumb drunk B!tch he would be up on Capitol muder for shooting a cop...... even a retarded cop.
She needs to be set on fire in the courtroom. I hope she get set to gen pop and shanked like she deserves.
F@ck her.
Take a knee Linda and hydrate.
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MountainRaven
10-02-19, 22:32
Really? Was the shooting premeditated? Did she open the door with the intent to shoot the guy on the couch?
I would say the same thing about similar situations if the shooter wasn't an LEO. She simply did not open the door with evil intent.
I don't think you understand what, "premeditated," means.
It means that you decided to kill someone. When you made that decision relative to the actual killing part isn't relevant. She could have decided it a decade ago, when she got out of her car in the garage, or the moment before she pulled the trigger (or at some point after pulling the trigger before her victim expired).
Short version: Unless she didn't intend to pull that trigger, it's premeditated. It's murder.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-02-19, 22:45
She acted as a civilian, not as a police officer in any official capacity. (gnashing of teeth with cIvilIAns aRE thE POlicE!!!). She acted without due regard and with poor judgement. Her actions were reckless at best, malicious at worst. Either way, criminal, and she was rightly convicted and received what most would agree is a lenient sentence. You guys can twist it all you want, but this isn't a "thin blue line vs the world" case, just a dumb broad with a gun in a state where lots of dumb broads have guns.
You won’t find any argument here. I’d be more interested in addressing the absolutely laughable standard of PID and “feeling threatened” that LEO’s are offered. Almost every shooting I’ve seen has standards of identification that wouldn’t have flown for my Scout/Sniper platoon in Mahmudiyah in the mid 2000’s, but somehow it works in Dallas.
That’s another crux of the issue. Folks haven’t a clue how use of force laws actually work but then the same folks get all uppity about things.
Look, I’m not saying this chick isn’t responsible, culpable, etc. She certainly is guilty
of an innocent man’s death, without question. I’m saying the facts don’t support the outcome. She’s a dumb-ass but the facts do not support any premeditation and if she no shit thought (unless there’s evidence suggesting otherwise) that she was entering and inside her own dwelling (Texas is big on defending your home and property yes?) then how is anyone shocked at the actions taken?
Mens rea is a crucial fact that needs to be ascertained and I don’t see it. Her being a dumbass and likely having no business being LEO has no bearing on the legal elements being decided. Manslaughter all day long. Murder? Nah fam. Thankfully other states have been delineate a difference with respect to crafting statutes.
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I don't think you understand what, "premeditated," means.
It means that you decided to kill someone. When you made that decision relative to the actual killing part isn't relevant. She could have decided it a decade ago, when she got out of her car in the garage, or the moment before she pulled the trigger (or at some point after pulling the trigger before her victim expired).
Short version: Unless she didn't intend to pull that trigger, it's premeditated. It's murder.
Then every cop who’s ever shot and killed some is guilty because they’ve made that decision consciously or subconsciously long before they ever presented their weapon.
So no, that’s a completely illogical statement to make and you’re being obtuse.
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MountainRaven
10-02-19, 22:48
That’s another crux of the issue. Folks haven’t a clue how use of force laws actually work but then the same folks get all uppity about things.
Look, I’m not saying this chick isn’t responsible, culpable, etc. She certainly is guilty
of an innocent man’s death, without question. I’m saying the facts don’t support the outcome. She’s a dumb-ass but the facts do not support any premeditation and if she no shit thought (unless there’s evidence suggesting otherwise) that she was entering and inside her own dwelling (Texas is big on defending your home and property yes?) then how is anyone shocked at the actions taken?
Mens rea is a crucial fact that needs to be ascertained and I don’t see it. Her being a dumbass and likely having no business being LEO has no bearing on the legal elements being decided. Manslaughter all day long. Murder? Nah fam. Thankfully other states have been delineate a difference with respect to crafting statutes.
If she didn't intend to pull the trigger, it's manslaughter.
If she did intend to pull the trigger, it's murder.
I don't recall hearing that she ever, at any point, said that she did not intend to pull the trigger.
Then every cop who’s ever shot and killed some is guilty because they’ve made that decision consciously or subconsciously long before they ever presented their weapon.
So no, that’s a completely illogical statement to make and you’re being obtuse.
I don't think you're familiar with the term, "justifiable homicide."
And, no, I'm not being obtuse.
She committed murder and she got a slap on the wrist for it.
ETA:
So we're clear:
What you're saying is, literally, if someone who is armed walks into your house and shoots and kills you, they have not murdered you because they did not intend to kill you when they illegally entered your house. You're literally giving every home invader carte blanche to break into houses and kill their residents and skate because, lol, it wasn't murder.
This woman intentionally entered the someone else's apartment. She intentionally drew her firearm. She intentionally settled her front sight over an innocent man's chest. She intentionally pulled the trigger. She intentionally put a bullet through his heart, killing him.
This is literally the same as someone intentionally entering your house. Intentionally drawing a gun. Intentionally putting their front sight on your chest (or your wife's, your kid's, whatever). Intentionally pulling the trigger. And intentionally putting a bullet through your heart (or your wife's or your kid's), killing you.
There is nothing different about the situation except that she's a woman with a badge.
Holy **** you’re being dense
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Coal Dragger
10-03-19, 00:36
The jury said she’s guilty, they heard the case. We didn’t.
I don't think you understand what, "premeditated," means.
Pretty sure I have a handle on it, and she did not premeditate the crime.
Apparently premeditation is not a requirement for a murder conviction in Texas.
Actually, after reading the Texas Statutes (19.01 through 19.05) I can understand why Texas executes so many people.
That is murder anywhere. WTF are you talking about?
That's pretty much an inaccurate statement there doc.
Many states have murders codified along the lines of Capital, Murder 1, Murder 2, Manslaughter, Involuntary Manslaughter, etc.
In most states a murder charge would require at least one of the elements of premeditation or intent, versus acts of omission or negligence which generally get you in the realm of manslaughter.
That's pretty much an inaccurate statement there doc.
Many states have murders codified along the lines of Capital, Murder 1, Murder 2, Manslaughter, Involuntary Manslaughter, etc.
In most states a murder charge would require at least one of the elements of premeditation or intent, versus acts of omission or negligence which generally get you in the realm of manslaughter.
That is my understanding of it also.
Doc is correct that had roles been reversed, Botham Jean likely would have been charged with capital murder though.
Death during DUI gets a murder conviction.
https://kfor.com/2018/05/24/texas-man-found-guilty-of-murder-in-drunk-driving-crash-that-killed-son/
Then every cop who’s ever shot and killed some is guilty because they’ve made that decision consciously or subconsciously long before they ever presented their weapon.
So no, that’s a completely illogical statement to make and you’re being obtuse.
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Not all, but human nature being what it is at least some.
There have been several officer involved shootings on video where the officers version of events(assuming they were telling the truth) would be indicative of hallucinations.
Texas law requires only intent to kill, not premeditation or malice for the definition of murder rather than manslaughter. On the witness stand she was asked if she intended to kill the guy. She answered yes. I don’t see how the jury could find otherwise. I don’t think her speaking did her any favors.
At the same that Texas has a lower standard for finding murder, they also have pretty low minimum sentence of five years (of which only 2-3 are actually served in prison).
The judge gave the jury options to find for murder or manslaughter and they went with the testimony and Texas law. And gave her a sentence on the milder side.
If she had taken even one second to scan her surroundings after thinking there might be a threat she would have seen difference from her own apartment exterior and interior. But she went full panic and decided to enter and shoot whoever was in there.
I don’t think there was any racial or cop hating involved in the shoot or trial. Others have tried to paint it so. I don’t see it.
She acted as a civilian, not as a police officer in any official capacity. (gnashing of teeth with cIvilIAns aRE thE POlicE!!!). She acted without due regard and with poor judgement. Her actions were reckless at best, malicious at worst. Either way, criminal, and she was rightly convicted and received what most would agree is a lenient sentence. You guys can twist it all you want, but this isn't a "thin blue line vs the world" case, just a dumb broad with a gun in a state where lots of dumb broads have guns.
From what I have read(again not a lawyer), once she thought there was a crime occurring then she kicked in to on duty status.
The one bright side of this whole ordeal were yesterday's words and actions of the victim's younger brother. He embodied love, grace, and forgiveness, which are attributes we should all aspire to.
‘I love you as a person’: Botham Jean’s brother hugs Amber Guyger after she gets 10 years in prison
https://fox4news.com/news/i-love-you-as-a-person-botham-jeans-brother-hugs-amber-guyger-after-she-gets-10-years-in-prison
The one bright side of the this whole ordeal were yesterday's words and actions of the victims younger brother. He embodied love, grace, and forgiveness, which are attributes we should all aspire to.
Yeah, sounds like that family is a real deal decent bunch.
Seems a bit unusual, but the judge also hugged her and gave her a Bible.
The one bright side of the this whole ordeal were yesterday's words and actions of the victim's younger brother. He embodied love, grace, and forgiveness, which are attributes we should all aspire to.
‘I love you as a person’: Botham Jean’s brother hugs Amber Guyger after she gets 10 years in prison
https://fox4news.com/news/i-love-you-as-a-person-botham-jeans-brother-hugs-amber-guyger-after-she-gets-10-years-in-prison
Yeah, sounds like that family is a real deal decent bunch.
Seems a bit unusual, but the judge also hugged her and gave her a Bible.
I don't believe she had any malice towards the victim and I don't believe the victim's family or the judge had any towards her. This is a rare case where it's a tragedy all around. There are no winners here. It wasn't premeditated and I think the verdict and sentence are just. Everyone needs to find a way to move on and I hope they do.
I don't believe she had any malice towards the victim and I don't believe the victim's family or the judge had any towards her. This is a rare case where it's a tragedy all around. There are no winners here. It wasn't premeditated and I think the verdict and sentence are just. Everyone needs to find a way to move on and I hope they do.
I don't think she did it on purpose either with a potential caveat. Some of the things she did after do bring up some question marks due to her apparent lack of remorse. Benefit of the doubt is incredibly inept, would have never harmed a soul on purpose, and more or less in shock. Then there are the not so nice possibilities of personality disorders.
Either way, I think there are a boat load of people that should be held accountable for getting her to where she was, but more than likely that isn't going to happen. I also have to wonder how many others just like her are out there operating.
The one bright side of this whole ordeal were yesterday's words and actions of the victim's younger brother. He embodied love, grace, and forgiveness, which are attributes we should all aspire to.
‘I love you as a person’: Botham Jean’s brother hugs Amber Guyger after she gets 10 years in prison
https://fox4news.com/news/i-love-you-as-a-person-botham-jeans-brother-hugs-amber-guyger-after-she-gets-10-years-in-prison
If that isn’t real, Christian love, then I don’t know what is ...
titsonritz
10-07-19, 02:10
And another twist...
Key witness in Amber Guyger murder trial shot and killed days after guilty verdict (https://www.foxnews.com/us/key-witness-amber-guyger-botham-jean-murder)
And another twist...
Key witness in Amber Guyger murder trial shot and killed days after guilty verdict (https://www.foxnews.com/us/key-witness-amber-guyger-botham-jean-murder)
Barring that getting handled far outside the norm or currently unknown camera footage, that will likely be a conspiracy theory for years to come.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-07-19, 08:40
And another twist...
Key witness in Amber Guyger murder trial shot and killed days after guilty verdict (https://www.foxnews.com/us/key-witness-amber-guyger-botham-jean-murder)
Saw that in the local news. Certainly interesting. Key witness gunned down by an unknown suspect.
It is my understanding that the victim was either a member or former member of a gang, and had been shot at least once before.
It is my understanding that the victim was either a member or former member of a gang, and had been shot at least once before.
Found where he was shot in November 2018, but nothing directly stating any gang affiliation.
The murder was apparently a drug deal gone bad, and not some evil conspiracy by DPD. Leftist groups like the NAACP want to see a devil behind every bush, when nine times out of ten the bogeyman is within their midst.
https://fox4news.com/news/arrest-warrants-issued-in-joshua-brown-murder-police-say-it-was-drug-deal-gone-bad
The murder was apparently a drug deal gone bad, and not some evil conspiracy by DPD. Leftist groups like the NAACP want to see a devil behind every bush, when nine times out of ten the bogeyman is within their midst.
https://fox4news.com/news/arrest-warrants-issued-in-joshua-brown-murder-police-say-it-was-drug-deal-gone-bad
To be fair, steps could be taken to curtail some of the suspicion when things like this pop up.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/09/24/police-treated-amber-guyger-special-on-night-of-shooting-prosecutor-argues/
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-08-19, 16:06
To be fair, steps could be taken to curtail some of the suspicion when things like this pop up.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/09/24/police-treated-amber-guyger-special-on-night-of-shooting-prosecutor-argues/
Clearly, based off your article, the police killed the witness.
Clearly, based off your article, the police killed the witness.
Clearly, I never claimed they did.
Do you find their actions at the Jean crime scene(as testified to under oath) impartial or honest?
Clearly, I never claimed they did.
Do you find their actions at the Jean crime scene(as testified to under oath) impartial or honest?
The head of the officer's union stated that they handled the Guyger - Jean incident as an officer involved shooting. They treated her like they would an officer moonlighting after hours. Whether the public likes it or not, there are certain protections and procedures in place that the union has obtained in order to protect it's members.
The victim in this latest shooting was not a pillar of the community, he was a dope dealer who took his chances and lost. The idea that the DPD would murder this guy in revenge for his testimony is ludicrous and insulting to all police officers.
The head of the officer's union stated that they handled the Guyger - Jean incident as an officer involved shooting. They treated her like they would an officer moonlighting after hours. Whether the public likes it or not, there are certain protections and procedures in place that the union has obtained in order to protect it's members.
The victim in this latest shooting was not a pillar of the community, he was a dope dealer who took his chances and lost. The idea that the DPD would murder this guy in revenge for his testimony is ludicrous and insulting to all police officers.
Not limited to police union arrangements, but going to go with the public shouldn't like members of certain groups receiving official preference to avoid being held responsible for crimes they commit.
Perhaps if that mindset had been nipped in the bud we wouldn't have illegal aliens free to do whatever they wish, "affluenza", and the plethora of other highlights on the path of decline.
Not limited to police union arrangements, but going to go with the public shouldn't like members of certain groups receiving official preference to avoid being held responsible for crimes they commit.
Perhaps if that mindset had been nipped in the bud we wouldn't have illegal aliens free to do whatever they wish, "affluenza", and the plethora of other highlights on the path of decline.
https://i.imgur.com/1PZZhez.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1PZZhez.jpg
What part is confusing to you?
4 thugs engaged in thug activity. Great. One of the negatives of life.
Amber Guyger apparently ended up, cloaked in the color of authority, at Jean's door and in the news by way of some very questionable, if not outright underhanded, mechanisms. Then that same machinery tried to help her avoid punishment.
While I am sure there are a good many Dallas PD and Texas Rangers who legitimately are beyond reproach, there are several(unfortunately unnamed thus far) brought to light by Guyger making the news that aren't worthy of trust. With any luck they will get weeded out as a result of this.
That was the gist of my asking about impartial and honest.
Looks like another instance of a homeowner being shot inside her house during a “welfare check”.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html
I saw this on Snipershide, i was really saddened and unhappy on how can a person be kill in his own home.
Looks like another instance of a homeowner being shot inside her house during a “welfare check”.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html
While I will reserve judgment until all details are in, it looks very bad.
Looks like another instance of a homeowner being shot inside her house during a “welfare check”.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html
This is tragic, no doubt about it. It should come as no surprise to anyone, including responding LEO, that a homeowner is holding a firearm in response to a perceived threat, while standing inside their own home. How a LEO is trained to deal with that issue is the first question that comes to my mind when I read about an incident of this nature.
We may have to wait a while before learning whether or not the homeowner was pointing the handgun at one of the LEO before she was engaged. Any way you look at it, this is a tragedy.
The call came in on the 311 non-emergency line as a welfare check. The neighbor thought it was unusual for the front door to be open - screen door was closed - and the lights on at two in the morning. According to the call log, the call was relayed officers as a burglary instead of a welfare check. Personally, I think that both the dispatcher and the officer should face charges.
The FWPD is waffling on the “burglary” statement. They changed it to “open door”. When asked to provide dispatch transcript they said we will at the 5pm press conference. They did not. Sounds like it there is a major screw up between 311 and patrol officers. The fact that SRT was called out too seems very odd considering the neighbor’s call to 311. May work in the officer’s favor but the department will get reamed.
Considering that dispatch is known to make mistakes it seems to me the on scene senior officer is responsible to survey and assess the situation and all officers should realize going to a residential home the occupants may actually be there unawares.
... Considering that dispatch is known to make mistakes it seems to me the on scene senior officer is responsible to survey and assess the situation and all officers should realize going to a residential home the occupants may actually be there unawares.
And armed.
While I've never been in law enforcement, it appears to me that the response to this call would have been wrong even if it had been a burglary in progress. Station officers at the rear of the residence while other officers DECLARE themselves and make contact at the front door. Instead, the officers are sneaking around the property like their looking for Saddam Hussein.
It appears to me that we have officers who think and or are being trained to think that they are a part of a paramilitary force. This mindset is fostered by the equipment and training used by the various departments. For instance, police departments have no business acquiring and using mil-surp Grizzly APC's, but a lot of departments have them. They have forgotten that the State is subject to the people, and not the other way around.
While I will reserve judgment until all details are in, it looks very bad.
Take into account the PD's actions to date.
A very brief almost no notice press conference with no Q and A for the few reporters who made it.
Hours after the shooting, police released a heavily edited version of the officer’s body camera footage.
CNN requested the unedited body camera footage, an incident report, and dispatch audio from the 911 call that prompted the response, but a police spokesperson said nothing additional would be released at this time.
Then grainy pics of a gun with no context as to where it was located, all we have to go on is they found it "in the house"... but where? Next to her, in her hands, two rooms away, where?
Now we know the cop never knocked and/or announced, about three seconds elapsed between first visual thru a closed window, to part of a verbal command to bang...
While I've never been in law enforcement, it appears to me that the response to this call would have been wrong even if it had been a burglary in progress. Station officers at the rear of the residence while other officers DECLARE themselves and make contact at the front door. Instead, the officers are sneaking around the property like their looking for Saddam Hussein.
It appears to me that we have officers who think and or are being trained to think that they are a part of a paramilitary force. This mindset is fostered by the equipment and training used by the various departments. For instance, police departments have no business acquiring and using mil-surp Grizzly APC's, but a lot of departments have them. They have forgotten that the State is subject to the people, and not the other way around.
I have a personal disdain for the current state of local and state law enforcement, but there IS a time and a place for those APCs. Mass casualty events and hostage standoffs, as they allow for mobile cover and the evacuation of injured civilian and law enforcement members. What absolutely confounds me is that my rules of engagement as a member of the military in an actual combat zone are more restrictive than these departments’ use of force policies.
Edit: Removed some unkind generalities about law enforcement that won’t bring any positive discussion.
Take into account the PD's actions to date.
A very brief almost no notice press conference with no Q and A for the few reporters who made it.
Hours after the shooting, police released a heavily edited version of the officer’s body camera footage.
CNN requested the unedited body camera footage, an incident report, and dispatch audio from the 911 call that prompted the response, but a police spokesperson said nothing additional would be released at this time.
Then grainy pics of a gun with no context as to where it was located, all we have to go on is they found it "in the house"... but where? Next to her, in her hands, two rooms away, where?
Now we know the cop never knocked and/or announced, about three seconds elapsed between first visual thru a closed window, to part of a verbal command to bang...
Once investigation are complete, all details get released. Making any comments and such other then very general comments before all the facts and details and investigation is done, is never a good thing.
I don't know what the SOP for that PD is on such a call and there's details that still need to be filled in. On the surface, it looks like bad shoot and as T2C said, first thing that came to my mind was training, or lack there of...
MountainRaven
10-14-19, 14:02
The police officer who did the shooting has resigned.
I have a personal disdain for the current state of local and state law enforcement, but there IS a time and a place for those APCs. Mass casualty events and hostage standoffs, as they allow for mobile cover and the evacuation of injured civilian and law enforcement members. What absolutely confounds me is that my rules of engagement as a member of the military in an actual combat zone are more restrictive than these departments’ use of force policies.
Edit: Removed some unkind generalities about law enforcement that won’t bring any positive discussion.
I have heard that before but not seen an actual comparison that wouldn't highly apples/oranges thing. Two, it usually leads me to conclude the mil's UOF policies are overly restrictive in our PC culture.
Well, we know what her welfare status is now.
It’s a shame that you aren’t even safe on your property or in your home. This happened in one of the south metro Atlanta counties a few years back. Police show up to the wrong address, snooping around unannounced, homeowner hears noises and steps out with a gun to see what’s up, you know the rest of the story.
Even as a law abiding, tax paying citizen, I cringe at the thought of any encounters or interaction with LE.
On the surface, it looks like bad shoot and as T2C said, first thing that came to my mind was training, or lack there of...
Sadly that is exactly the problem.
The police officer who did the shooting has resigned.
Per the presser, he resigned in lieu of termination for multiple policy violations. Department will report to POST their findings, and If I heard them correctly they anticipate criminal charges?
VIDEO of press conference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-72oor6pPA&feature=youtu.be
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fort-worth-police-officer-who-fatally-shot-atatiana-jefferson-resigns-n1065866
Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus announced at a news conference that he intended to end Officer Aaron Dean's employment, but that Dean tendered his resignation first. Dean, who joined the department in April 2018, still faces criminal charges as well as possible civil rights violations, Kraus said.
Fort Worth police have said they found a firearm inside the house, although it wasn't clear whether Jefferson was near the gun when she was shot. Merritt said it was legally owned and she had a license to carry.
The Fort Worth Police Department quickly released bodycam footage from the shooting. The video did not include the interior of the house, except to show a blurry image of the gun officers found after the shooting. Lt. Brandon O'Neil declined to answer questions about why police released the images of the gun; in her open letter on Monday, Mayor Price called the gun "irrelevant."
Releasing gun photo inappropriate, Fort Worth chief says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/releasing-gun-photo-inappropriate-fort-worth-chief-says/2019/10/14/5087d67a-eec0-11e9-bb7e-d2026ee0c199_story.html
But that footage also included blurry photos of a handgun found inside the home, leading many to question whether police were trying to demonize 28-year-old Atatiana Jefferson, who was playing video games with her 8-year-old nephew when she was struck by the officer’s gunfire, family members said.
Fort Worth Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus admitted Monday that it was inappropriate to release the photos of the gun.
“That is something we’ve done in the past — to include the photograph of the firearm to show what the perceived threat may have been,” Kraus said at a Monday press conference, where he announced that Officer Aaron Dean had resigned from the force following Saturday’s shooting. “And in hindsight, it was a bad thing to do.”
Kraus said he did not know whether Jefferson was holding the gun when the officers approached in the backyard but that the gun was found near the window where the fatal shot was fired.
“We’re homeowners in Texas ... Most of us, if we thought we had somebody outside our house that shouldn’t be, and we had access to a firearm, we would be acting very similarly to how she was acting,” he said.
Coal Dragger
10-14-19, 15:40
Well, we know what her welfare status is now.
It’s a shame that you aren’t even safe on your property or in your home. This happened in one of the south metro Atlanta counties a few years back. Police show up to the wrong address, snooping around unannounced, homeowner hears noises and steps out with a gun to see what’s up, you know the rest of the story.
Even as a law abiding, tax paying citizen, I cringe at the thought of any encounters or interaction with LE.
You are right to worry about encounters with LE. I work on call 24/7 so I’m often driving late at night or very early AM. So I get to interact with the local morons at least twice a year on their fishing for drunks expeditions just because I happen to be out and about. Given the state of my local PD and the officers I have encountered I have zero confidence in their ability to do anything correctly aside from issue citiations. Actually strike that, one tried to write me a ticket and didn’t even know the posted speed limit on the section of road I was driving. That was an interesting conversation at 02:45.
The police officer who did the shooting has resigned.
Wonder why? Doesn't seem significantly different than an earlier Fort Worth shooting.
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/tag/jerry-waller/
Dude got booked on murder charges
I have a personal disdain for the current state of local and state law enforcement, but there IS a time and a place for those APCs. Mass casualty events and hostage standoffs, as they allow for mobile cover and the evacuation of injured civilian and law enforcement members. What absolutely confounds me is that my rules of engagement as a member of the military in an actual combat zone are more restrictive than these departments’ use of force policies.
Edit: Removed some unkind generalities about law enforcement that won’t bring any positive discussion.
Really? I've done both and my ROE in Iraq was far far more lenient than that as a cop. In Iraq we shot dudes digging holes in the road, we shot dudes watching convoys with binoculars, we shot guys with guns that had no idea we were there. A couple buddies recently got back from Afghanistan and said it's pretty similar.
Use of deadly force for US LEOs requires force that a reasonable officer at that time with the same information would have used.
The fact of the matter is cops are people. People make the wrong decisions sometimes especially when scared out under stress. You cab train all you want but in the real world decisions have consequences and this officer it's facing those now.
Comparing military ROE to civilian LE UoF is an wholly unproductive level of derp worthy of TOS.
For instance, police departments have no business acquiring and using mil-surp Grizzly APC's, but a lot of departments have them.
Our (my city's) PD has a Bearcat. A couple days ago they used it to breach the door on a DV call where the lady had left the home and reported that she heard a gunshot after she left. Unable to make contact, they used the Bearcat to Breach, damaging only the door and frame, unfortunately the guy had shot himself like he really meant it and he was dead.
Used with some degree of thoughtfulness, all of the tools you are probably against PD's having can save citizen lives.
The fact of the matter is cops are people. People make the wrong decisions sometimes especially when scared out under stress.
This is true, but that needs to be the law of the land from the second the officer is sworn in and not a mantra touted the second the public becomes aware the officer made a mistake and/or committed a crime.
That isn't limited to police, but any elected or appointed official involved in the legal system. There is a major problem when members of a group wanting to be involved in subjecting other citizens to laws expect or receive exemptions either by statute or professional courtesy.
Our (my city's) PD has a Bearcat. A couple days ago they used it to breach the door on a DV call where the lady had left the home and reported that she heard a gunshot after she left. Unable to make contact, they used the Bearcat to Breach, damaging only the door and frame, unfortunately the guy had shot himself like he really meant it and he was dead.
Used with some degree of thoughtfulness, all of the tools you are probably against PD's having can save citizen lives.I sure hope there is more to the story than you wrote...
Angry spouse to 911: "my husband has a gun, and I heard a shot as I left"
Bearcat rolls up, over loudspeaker "come out with your hands up"
No response
Bearcat smashes in door? TAC enters?
Unless there is far more to the story, this is just as scary as the original story.
I am not anti leo, it's a hard and needed job. But I'm a bit stunned at what has become the new (acceptable?) norm.
I know there are horrible DV cases. But there are also DV cases that are effectively just another form of swatting.
Comparing military ROE to civilian LE UoF is an wholly unproductive level of derp worthy of TOS.
I was trying to say say that, but in a more polite way being neither LE or mil, but it's a comment you see fairly often yet rarely quantified. It's not apples and oranges, more like apples and blenders.
I sure hope there is more to the story than you wrote...
Angry spouse to 911: "my husband has a gun, and I heard a shot as I left"
Bearcat rolls up, over loudspeaker "come out with your hands up"
No response
Bearcat smashes in door? TAC enters?
Unless there is far more to the story, this is just as scary as the original story.
I am not anti leo, it's a hard and needed job. But I'm a bit stunned at what has become the new (acceptable?) norm.
I know there are horrible DV cases. But there are also DV cases that are effectively just another form of swatting.
That's not how that works.
Patrol officers would show up to the scene, gather evidence that the male was still inside the house, and attempt to start communications. After that didn't work SWAT would be called out. I guarantee this whole process took hours to happen.
First off, I dunno about army guy stuff but post shoot for LE you are essentially treated like a rape complainant c. 1960s. “Why were you dressed like that? Why were you out alone so late? Why didn’t you do this instead?” When YOU were the victim
Only rookies too fat or stupid for the Army wanna play army while policing.
That said 99.9999999999999997% of SWAT or even Patrol overreaction can be handled with a simple phone call and a little critical thinking.
Per chickie snack I maintain she was banging homeboy and for whatever reason in her female logic decided he “had to go”
Whiskey_Bravo
10-15-19, 12:20
Used with some degree of thoughtfulness, all of the tools you are probably against PD's having can save citizen lives.
I am sure a complete and total police state would save lives. The trick is balancing muh safety and liberty. Nothing says liberty like 20 tons of Grizzly or MRAP driving down main street with the local PD emblem on the side.
That's not how that works.
Patrol officers would show up to the scene, gather evidence that the male was still inside the house, and attempt to start communications. After that didn't work SWAT would be called out. I guarantee this whole process took hours to happen.
Or it could go like the officer that killed the lady in her home in Fort Worth after a simple welfare call.......
"Or it could go like the officer that killed the lady in her home in Fort Worth after a simple welfare call...…"
Or you can enter a man's apartment while HE is eating ice cream and watching TV and shoot him dead. Then claim, "I thought it was MY apartment". Yeah, uh - huh.
Bad patterns forming here.
That's not how that works.
Patrol officers would show up to the scene, gather evidence that the male was still inside the house, and attempt to start communications. After that didn't work SWAT would be called out. I guarantee this whole process took hours to happen.I hope you are right. But what was posted: "... after she left. Unable to make contact, they used the Bearcat to Breach"
Yeah, I know it was not an after action report.
I'm hoping they interviewed her. Maybe get a key. Clearly the guy did not answer, nor was threatening, brandishing, etc. If they saw him laying dead, why breach?
Maybe it was ok. Just saying the casual comment was concerning to me if there was not more to the story.
That said 99.9999999999999997% of SWAT or even Patrol overreaction can be handled with a simple phone call and a little critical thinking.
Well there is the issue... back when I was in LE (early 2000's) we were starting to see a serious lack of such with the new candidates and today its even worse.
A serious lack of critical thinking skills does exist in LE today, which is why we are seeing more and more problems. Screening could be a factor as well as the people attracted to the job are all just the wrong people to begin with.
Today the police have a bad reputation among many different slices of society, not just the minority groups. When I left LE to return to aviation, flying for a major US carrier I was hard pressed to find folks who didn't hold some level of distrust
of the cops. And these people were hardly criminals.
As these events continue to happen more and more people will begin to distrust LE, support for them will wane and then what?
Locally to me a newspaper ran an article a while back about how the prosecutors office was seeing an alarming number of juries return not guilty verdicts on cases where the only witness for the state was the cops. When they would question the jurors
most would tell them the cops were simply not credible enough for them to convict. And this is in a mid side town of mostly middle class white folks. So the loss of trust is there.
I also believe that most people when publicly polled will say the do support the police, but I bet a lot of them also hold private opinions of doubt. They just don't want to be painted as anti-cop as is the usual actions of cops to someone who says they doubt them.
Another observation I have made is thru the various web forums I visit, they range from here and other gun forms to political, academic and science forums to aviation forums and people from all walks of life are starting to say the same thing. They are finding it harder and harder
to trust the police, a lot of them have said that incidents such as this one would make them very hesitant to call the cops for any reason. And honestly I can't blame them.
Our (my city's) PD has a Bearcat. A couple days ago they used it to breach the door on a DV call where the lady had left the home and reported that she heard a gunshot after she left. Unable to make contact, they used the Bearcat to Breach, damaging only the door and frame, unfortunately the guy had shot himself like he really meant it and he was dead.
Used with some degree of thoughtfulness, all of the tools you are probably against PD's having can save citizen lives.
Thank you for proving my point for me. The situation that you just described could have easily been handled by other less expensive and less obtrusive means, but instead the PD's first action is to over react and bring out the military grade hardware. The police departments that have these military vehicles justify their purchase of these expensive behemoths by using them at every opportunity - when you have a shiny new hammer everything that you see looks like a nail!
If the police want to foster the community's trust and respect then they need to divest themselves of the paramilitary equipment and mindset.
but instead the PD's first action is to over react and bring out the military grade hardware.
And that exactly why the cops can be manipulated by a teenager on a computer game half way across the country into killing an innocent man...
There are no bad police.
Just piss poor police trainers and chiefs with shit for brains who are either under involved or over involved. Plus stupid ass mayors or county commissioners.
There are no bad police.
Just piss poor police trainers and chiefs with shit for brains who are either under involved or over involved. Plus stupid ass mayors or county commissioners.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Our police force is a reflection of our society, and there are bad/evil cops just like there are bad/evil people. The system tries to filter out the mentally unfit, but it can't screen out all of them. For example, I went to high school with a guy who was intimately involved in a drug related murder during our senior year with two other classmates. This same guy, after testifying against his co-conspirators, legally changed his name and is now a Denton County sheriff's deputy. There's no way in hell this guy should even be allowed to own a firearm, and yet he's wearing a badge and a gun.
There are no bad police.
Just piss poor police trainers and chiefs with shit for brains who are either under involved or over involved. Plus stupid ass mayors or county commissioners.
I would say there are bad police for sure. Bell curve like most everything else where a small percentage are pure evil while the other end is pure as the wind driven snow and the bulk majority lay somewhere in between, be that to the good side or bad.
I whole heartedly agree with your statements on administrators and will add to that the duds are enabled by equally sucky prosecutors, judges, legislators, executives, and any/all others who lobbied and cajoled us in to this mess.
It’s easy to get apathetic and jaded REALLY easy wearing a badge. Whether it’s due to internal admin bullshit or external bs with the public.
The same BS day in and day gets old and eventually you get sick of trying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I sure hope there is more to the story than you wrote...
Angry spouse to 911: "my husband has a gun, and I heard a shot as I left"
Bearcat rolls up, over loudspeaker "come out with your hands up"
No response
Bearcat smashes in door? TAC enters?
Unless there is far more to the story, this is just as scary as the original story.
I am not anti leo, it's a hard and needed job. But I'm a bit stunned at what has become the new (acceptable?) norm.
I know there are horrible DV cases. But there are also DV cases that are effectively just another form of swatting.
There is more, face-to-face interview with victim, etc. Patrol tried to make contact, 911 calls to his cells, etc.
So what do you suggest? Hold until he smells? Let the woman play canary in the mine and send her in?
I know these particular guys and I'm sure the entry was made just as much to try to get to him before he bled out as anything else.
Sorry I short-cutted my original post.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-15-19, 15:14
It’s easy to get apathetic and jaded REALLY easy wearing a badge. Whether it’s due to internal admin bullshit or external bs with the public.
The same BS day in and day gets old and eventually you get sick of trying.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Then it's time to throw in the towel and find something else to do.
Thank you for proving my point for me. The situation that you just described could have easily been handled by other less expensive and less obtrusive means, but instead the PD's first action is to over react and bring out the military grade hardware. The police departments that have these military vehicles justify their purchase of these expensive behemoths by using them at every opportunity - when you have a shiny new hammer everything that you see looks like a nail!
If the police want to foster the community's trust and respect then they need to divest themselves of the paramilitary equipment and mindset.
Actually the entry was made several hours after, the initial patrol response.
Your last sentence strikes a chord within me, but not in response to Tac Teams. I'm not a big fan of BDU style uniforms, and over the top outside vest carriers, whatever color. External vest carriers are a good thing, as they take weight off the duty belt and help mitigate lower back problems. But I agree, the trend toward looking like you just came off a patrol in a war zone is not a good one.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Our police force is a reflection of our society, and there are bad/evil cops just like there are bad/evil people. The system tries to filter out the mentally unfit, but it can't screen out all of them. For example, I went to high school with a guy who was intimately involved in a drug related murder during our senior year with two other classmates. This same guy, after testifying against his co-conspirators, legally changed his name and is now a Denton County sheriff's deputy. There's no way in hell this guy should even be allowed to own a firearm, and yet he's wearing a badge and a gun.
I am not so sure about the system as a whole trying to screen out the unfit. While some do, others clearly don't as exhibited by many agencies immediately hiring officers after being dropped by a previous agency over actions that would have landed a non LE in legal trouble.
There is more, face-to-face interview with victim, etc. Patrol tried to make contact, 911 calls to his cells, etc.
So what do you suggest? Hold until he smells? Let the woman play canary in the mine and send her in?
I know these particular guys and I'm sure the entry was made just as much to try to get to him before he bled out as anything else.
Sorry I short-cutted my original post.All valid points. And I had already acknowledged you just made a comment, not an after-action report.
Likewise, had not thought of the point that he might still be alive.
I guess I am just sensitive to the "if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" mindset challenges.
All valid points. And I had already acknowledged you just made a comment, not an after-action report.
Likewise, had not thought of the point that he might still be alive.
I guess I am just sensitive to the "if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail" mindset challenges.
In my experiences, the hammer nail analogy is more prevalent with the teams that don't really train and/or have morons for leaders. I'm generally talking smaller jurisdictions.
An example, I'm at an FBI SWAT school. When talking about making entries to chase drugs (not recommended, BTW) this guy pops up 'We did 47 entries last year, didn't hit a dry hole.' By way of explanation, this was years ago when the high-risk warrant service entry was in vogue with some folks. Now I well know that meth was/is a problem, but this guy was from a jurisdiction of less than 10,000 people, in a county of less than 16,000. And this guy was not the sharpest pencil in the holder. Several years later he came through our firearms instructor school and shot a 68 on our initial diagnostic qualification. He didn't return for the second week.
Just saying, yes, sometimes folks want to play tac team.
ETA: Throughout most of our state smaller jurisdictions band together to form multi-jurisdictional response teams. This somewhat alleviates the BS call outs, and, generally results in dedicated training days for the teams.
Then it's time to throw in the towel and find something else to do.
It’s true though
https://www.instagram.com/p/B3qccNNFmno/?igshid=1sfz3lyphg40m
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I stand by my words.
There are no bad police.
If you've made it through the process to get to go to police academy; they have parsed your life tonsee where you may be irresponsible, deficient, unfit, unstable, etc.
Usually it works. Then you go to Academy which is equal parts boot camp and college. You memorize case law, universal procedure, bare minimum self defense, bare minimum shooting, and a lot of writing.
And you feel like one of God's chosen, but in a good way. Not arrogance. You feel really positive. To go out and do good.
Then. ....you meet your trainer. He talks to you like shit, bitches about everything, reminds you every day you are a rookie, gets frustrated because this is all new to you and there are a lot of gray areas with few clear answers, pumps your head full of "back your partner" whuch means "dont tell LT how lazy and shiftless I am" but at the same time he will tell everybody you are either a fvck up or a kissass. He will do stupid shit and pin on you. As you grow into your own he will take credit for anything you accomplish. He will drill into your head not to dare touch your gun then happen upon something real and berate you or write you up on Officer Safety because you didnt have your gun out. He will either be a bald, black worthless son of a bitch who will run his bubba gump lips full of racist shit about blacks and whites alike that put you in an awkward position because asva new guy your words mean nothing and any legit complaint you make gets you called a "snowflake". Or you get some balding whute guy who makes a point to not give you a chance because he is 45 and can'tcatch a promote.
Adam 12 was fantasy of the level headed guy teaching the young mind
Now thanks to diversity, you get some mexican motherfvcker with shortman syndrome who rattles off on his cellphome in spanish. He's in the car, but not there for you. Everyone thinks he's an asset when he's a coaster.
So that young, fresh mind gets jaded, stops caring. The heart breaks. The spirit dies. Nobody cares. Nobody listens. So you end up becoming what you hated. Fight it too hard and you're a crusader.
There will be days you will want to die. ?
And you will say over and over and OVER "If people could just talk and be a little flexible and help a little"
But it wont happen.
Then you hit the gun freaks, the god complex guys, the "I bet she looks good naked" hires, the token black hires, the guys who already seem shady picking up bitches on stops.
It hurts. You feel betrayed. Because you got told you were all Blue. But you're not. You are black, brown, gay, female, hispanic, or the white boy. The game is buck passing.
"If people could just talk a little and be more flexible and help a little..."
Then one day you wake uo and don't care anymore. But you got a moral compass so you drive on. You play lone ranger. Nobody cares. F em. I'll just cover my 45 degrees,get through the day, go home and jack off before I go to sleep.
But more and more sorry trainers and sorry admin create sorry officers. Write ups for doing the right thing. All while they out there being horrible.
It goes beyond hatred. You realize you hate yourself because you allow yourself to be around these people. But the fire isnt dim yet. You still believe. Its fading but you dig to the deepest part of your guts. By now you've been fvcked over. You been injured, no back up. "Extended ETAs" "caught behind a train"
And that faint voice is a weak whisper "If people could just talk a little, be more flexible, and help a little"
By now you have scars, aches, and bad memories. You don't hate these people because they arenn't real people. It's pretendo world.
Then you realize it's not that you don't care anymore. It's that you are no longer capable.
And you did try. You were just outnumbered. Don't be too hard on yourself.
You really didn't have a fair nor sporting chance.
After all, look who trained you.
I stand by my words.
There are no bad police.
If you've made it through the process to get to go to police academy; they have parsed your life tonsee where you may be irresponsible, deficient, unfit, unstable, etc.
Usually it works. Then you go to Academy which is equal parts boot camp and college. You memorize case law, universal procedure, bare minimum self defense, bare minimum shooting, and a lot of writing.
And you feel like one of God's chosen, but in a good way. Not arrogance. You feel really positive. To go out and do good.
Then. ....you meet your trainer. He talks to you like shit, bitches about everything, reminds you every day you are a rookie, gets frustrated because this is all new to you and there are a lot of gray areas with few clear answers, pumps your head full of "back your partner" whuch means "dont tell LT how lazy and shiftless I am" but at the same time he will tell everybody you are either a fvck up or a kissass. He will do stupid shit and pin on you. As you grow into your own he will take credit for anything you accomplish. He will drill into your head not to dare touch your gun then happen upon something real and berate you or write you up on Officer Safety because you didnt have your gun out. He will either be a bald, black worthless son of a bitch who will run his bubba gump lips full of racist shit about blacks and whites alike that put you in an awkward position because asva new guy your words mean nothing and any legit complaint you make gets you called a "snowflake". Or you get some balding whute guy who makes a point to not give you a chance because he is 45 and can'tcatch a promote.
Adam 12 was fantasy of the level headed guy teaching the young mind
Now thanks to diversity, you get some mexican motherfvcker with shortman syndrome who rattles off on his cellphome in spanish. He's in the car, but not there for you. Everyone thinks he's an asset when he's a coaster.
So that young, fresh mind gets jaded, stops caring. The heart breaks. The spirit dies. Nobody cares. Nobody listens. So you end up becoming what you hated. Fight it too hard and you're a crusader.
There will be days you will want to die. ?
And you will say over and over and OVER "If people could just talk and be a little flexible and help a little"
But it wont happen.
Then you hit the gun freaks, the god complex guys, the "I bet she looks good naked" hires, the token black hires, the guys who already seem shady picking up bitches on stops.
It hurts. You feel betrayed. Because you got told you were all Blue. But you're not. You are black, brown, gay, female, hispanic, or the white boy. The game is buck passing.
"If people could just talk a little and be more flexible and help a little..."
Then one day you wake uo and don't care anymore. But you got a moral compass so you drive on. You play lone ranger. Nobody cares. F em. I'll just cover my 45 degrees,get through the day, go home and jack off before I go to sleep.
But more and more sorry trainers and sorry admin create sorry officers. Write ups for doing the right thing. All while they out there being horrible.
It goes beyond hatred. You realize you hate yourself because you allow yourself to be around these people. But the fire isnt dim yet. You still believe. Its fading but you dig to the deepest part of your guts. By now you've been fvcked over. You been injured, no back up. "Extended ETAs" "caught behind a train"
And that faint voice is a weak whisper "If people could just talk a little, be more flexible, and help a little"
By now you have scars, aches, and bad memories. You don't hate these people because they arenn't real people. It's pretendo world.
Then you realize it's not that you don't care anymore. It's that you are no longer capable.
And you did try. You were just outnumbered. Don't be too hard on yourself.
You really didn't have a fair nor sporting chance.
After all, look who trained you.
Aren't the people who trained you police?
Fly, that is a sad reality you describe. I assure you that is not what the general public wants it’s police officers to experience on a daily basis. I would be fine if everyone just treated it like a regular job. Police should go home safe. Innocent citizens should not be lit up.
Maybe we ask a single type of employee, officer, to handle too much. Over qualified to be handling some trivial calls and write ups. But put into dangerous situations with too much risk. Active shooter is about the most difficult scenario but hopefully fairly rare. Most other situations hand off to a more administrative person if trivial or wait for more officers to mitigate the risks.
And we have too many damn laws. And you either enforce them and appear a martinet, or don’t and appear arbitrary.
I worked with an immigrant from Ukraine. He said, “I come here because I love America, but you have so many laws, laws for everything. In Soviet Union we never had so many laws. America, land of the free but too many laws!”
"Or it could go like the officer that killed the lady in her home in Fort Worth after a simple welfare call...…"
Or you can enter a man's apartment while HE is eating ice cream and watching TV and shoot him dead. Then claim, "I thought it was MY apartment". Yeah, uh - huh.
Bad patterns forming here.
So you think she pre meditatively killer her neighbor for chits and giggles?
If there are no bad cops then there wouldn't be the need for the "Brady List". When my best friend who is a cop explained the Brady List to me I couldn't believe it. Why these individuals are still officers when they can't be trusted to tell the truth is beyond me.
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/10/14/brady-lists-police-officers-dishonest-corrupt-still-testify-investigation-database/2233386001/
Whiskey_Bravo
10-16-19, 08:37
Love you Fly but any assertion that there are no bad police officers is laughable. The selection process does it's best to weed out any that shouldn't be there but it is nothing but a man made process that can have flaws and be cheated.
In most places getting on the Brady list is a career ender.
Love you Fly but any assertion that there are no bad police officers is laughable. The selection process does it's best to weed out any that shouldn't be there but it is nothing but a man made process that can have flaws and be cheated.
Ever see the video for Voices Carry? Where Aimee Mann has been stifled so much she just can't take it anymore at the opera?
You have missed my point. Or rather I failed at irony.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-16-19, 08:46
Ever see the video for Voices Carry? Where Aimee Mann has been stifled so much she just can't take it anymore at the opera?
You have missed my point. Or rather I failed at irony.
My mistake then for missing it.
I stand by my words.
There are no bad police.
If you've made it through the process to get to go to police academy; they have parsed your life tonsee where you may be irresponsible, deficient, unfit, unstable, etc.
Usually it works. Then you go to Academy which is equal parts boot camp and college. You memorize case law, universal procedure, bare minimum self defense, bare minimum shooting, and a lot of writing.
And you feel like one of God's chosen, but in a good way. Not arrogance. You feel really positive. To go out and do good.
Then. ....you meet your trainer. He talks to you like shit, bitches about everything, reminds you every day you are a rookie, gets frustrated because this is all new to you and there are a lot of gray areas with few clear answers, pumps your head full of "back your partner" whuch means "dont tell LT how lazy and shiftless I am" but at the same time he will tell everybody you are either a fvck up or a kissass. He will do stupid shit and pin on you. As you grow into your own he will take credit for anything you accomplish. He will drill into your head not to dare touch your gun then happen upon something real and berate you or write you up on Officer Safety because you didnt have your gun out. He will either be a bald, black worthless son of a bitch who will run his bubba gump lips full of racist shit about blacks and whites alike that put you in an awkward position because asva new guy your words mean nothing and any legit complaint you make gets you called a "snowflake". Or you get some balding whute guy who makes a point to not give you a chance because he is 45 and can'tcatch a promote.
Adam 12 was fantasy of the level headed guy teaching the young mind
Now thanks to diversity, you get some mexican motherfvcker with shortman syndrome who rattles off on his cellphome in spanish. He's in the car, but not there for you. Everyone thinks he's an asset when he's a coaster.
So that young, fresh mind gets jaded, stops caring. The heart breaks. The spirit dies. Nobody cares. Nobody listens. So you end up becoming what you hated. Fight it too hard and you're a crusader.
There will be days you will want to die. ?
And you will say over and over and OVER "If people could just talk and be a little flexible and help a little"
But it wont happen.
Then you hit the gun freaks, the god complex guys, the "I bet she looks good naked" hires, the token black hires, the guys who already seem shady picking up bitches on stops.
It hurts. You feel betrayed. Because you got told you were all Blue. But you're not. You are black, brown, gay, female, hispanic, or the white boy. The game is buck passing.
"If people could just talk a little and be more flexible and help a little..."
Then one day you wake uo and don't care anymore. But you got a moral compass so you drive on. You play lone ranger. Nobody cares. F em. I'll just cover my 45 degrees,get through the day, go home and jack off before I go to sleep.
But more and more sorry trainers and sorry admin create sorry officers. Write ups for doing the right thing. All while they out there being horrible.
It goes beyond hatred. You realize you hate yourself because you allow yourself to be around these people. But the fire isnt dim yet. You still believe. Its fading but you dig to the deepest part of your guts. By now you've been fvcked over. You been injured, no back up. "Extended ETAs" "caught behind a train"
And that faint voice is a weak whisper "If people could just talk a little, be more flexible, and help a little"
By now you have scars, aches, and bad memories. You don't hate these people because they arenn't real people. It's pretendo world.
Then you realize it's not that you don't care anymore. It's that you are no longer capable.
And you did try. You were just outnumbered. Don't be too hard on yourself.
You really didn't have a fair nor sporting chance.
After all, look who trained you.
When are you gonna write a book dude? You really do have a gift for it. Going through the motions after the system breaks one down is the norm sadly.
In most places getting on the Brady list is a career ender.
And that isn't right since it violates their right to due process. They should be charged with perjury and let them have their day in court.
And that isn't right since it violates their right to due process. They should be charged with perjury and let them have their day in court.
In many cases the omissions/lies are during internal investigations.
For example, an officer takes an off-duty officer home after stopping the off-duty officer for suspected DUI. This comes to light and when initially asked, another officer lies to cover his partner. Further internal investigation reveals the lie. From that point forward, that lie/omission has to be disclosed to the defense on any case in which the officer is a witness.
The officer can't be tried for perjury because it wasn't in court, under oath. In most cases it is a career ender, rightfully so.
But, beyond your obvious anti-police stance, what is the difference, in terms of due process, between firing an officer who fibs and firing the guy caught screwing the bosses secretary on her desk? Does that violate his due-process?
firing the guy caught screwing the bosses secretary on her desk? Does that violate his due-process?
If you were where I worked previously and we’re a ranking official and it was your secretary you got promoted.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In many cases the omissions/lies are during internal investigations.
For example, an officer takes an off-duty officer home after stopping the off-duty officer for suspected DUI. This comes to light and when initially asked, another officer lies to cover his partner. Further internal investigation reveals the lie. From that point forward, that lie/omission has to be disclosed to the defense on any case in which the officer is a witness.
The officer can't be tried for perjury because it wasn't in court, under oath. In most cases it is a career ender, rightfully so.
But, beyond your obvious anti-police stance, what is the difference, in terms of due process, between firing an officer who fibs and firing the guy caught screwing the bosses secretary on her desk? Does that violate his due-process?
It is an anti-police stance to not support an officer lying that may lead to someone getting wrongly convicted of a crime and all that entails?
And that isn't right since it violates their right to due process. They should be charged with perjury and let them have their day in court.
I've known three guys put on the Brady list. Two were fired and charged with some form of perjury (same incident) and the other was popped on lying about some sort of policy violation he made.
I wish the third guy got fired to as he is just a shit cop, but I don't make those decisions.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-16-19, 23:57
I've known three guys put on the Brady list. Two were fired and charged with some form of perjury (same incident) and the other was popped on lying about some sort of policy violation he made.
I wish the third guy got fired to as he is just a shit cop, but I don't make those decisions.
My wife's cousin has a Brady jacket. He deserves it, and was fired. How anyone could be a cop with a Brady jacket baffles me.
I'm a cop, but not a cop apologist. The two Texas incidents are ****ed up and wrong. Inexcusable on any level. I am sorry they happened, and I am sorry that innocent people died at the hands of two criminally stupid cops. We can and must do better.
I assure you, the VAST majority of us are better than this, and the statistics prove it. But I won't try to convince anyone, because I understand the distrust and anger right now.
It is an anti-police stance to not support an officer lying that may lead to someone getting wrongly convicted of a crime and all that entails?
No, it certainly is not, but the anti police vibe seems to permeate your posts. How about you send me your family tree back a generation, I bet I could find an asshole or two. Doesn't mean you all are.
No, it certainly is not, but the anti police vibe seems to permeate your posts. How about you send me your family tree back a generation, I bet I could find an asshole or two. Doesn't mean you all are.
You need to call me out on being anti judge/prosecutor/legislator/crony capitalism/& anything else over promised and under delivered also.
My wife's cousin has a Brady jacket. He deserves it, and was fired. How anyone could be a cop with a Brady jacket baffles me.
I'm a cop, but not a cop apologist. The two Texas incidents are ****ed up and wrong. Inexcusable on any level. I am sorry they happened, and I am sorry that innocent people died at the hands of two criminally stupid cops. We can and must do better.
I assure you, the VAST majority of us are better than this, and the statistics prove it. But I won't try to convince anyone, because I understand the distrust and anger right now.
I agree. The latest incident in Fort Worth is crazy. Those types of calls are not rare. Put a guy or two around back incase someone runs and knock on the ****ing front door. There is a really good chance the homeowner is leaving the door open for some legitimate reason.
I agree. The latest incident in Fort Worth is crazy. Those types of calls are not rare. Put a guy or two around back incase someone runs and knock on the ****ing front door. There is a really good chance the homeowner is leaving the door open for some legitimate reason.
From what I have read there was a storm door that was closed.
From what I have read there was a storm door that was closed.
It was a screen door - no glass - so the officers could have easily shouted through the door and been heard.
It was a screen door - no glass - so the officers could have easily shouted through the door and been heard.
That seems like it should have nixed the open structure/burglary twist on the call that got them sent there.
What's the difference between being Brady Listed and Giglio Impaired?
My big question in this latest Ft. Worth fiasco is who that officer's FTO was. It doesn't seem to me that he should've been checked off as good to go. :(
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-17-19, 15:28
What's the difference between being Brady Listed and Giglio Impaired?
My big question in this latest Ft. Worth fiasco is who that officer's FTO was. It doesn't seem to me that he should've been checked off as good to go. :(
Yup. That was bad training and bad decision making combined.
The hardest, and best, lesson I ever learned was to slow calls down when I have the chance. Time isn't always on our side, but when it is, I can make much better decisions when I am not rushing. This kid had no concept of that.
Yup. That was bad training and bad decision making combined.
The hardest, and best, lesson I ever learned was to slow calls down when I have the chance. Time isn't always on our side, but when it is, I can make much better decisions when I am not rushing. This kid had no concept of that.
Not being in law enforcement, I formed the impression that the officer in this latest tragedy was either over eager to be involved in something big, or was over thinking the situation at hand
Yup. That was bad training and bad decision making combined.
The hardest, and best, lesson I ever learned was to slow calls down when I have the chance. Time isn't always on our side, but when it is, I can make much better decisions when I am not rushing. This kid had no concept of that.
Unfortunately common sense is harder to come by nowadays. You can teach problem solving and best practice standards but common sense not so much sadly.
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I believe today's societal conditioning that gun=bad guy has a lot to do with it, too. If I had shot everyone I had encountered who had a gun when I was working I would be more famous (infamous?) than Wyatt Earp. It has been 15 years since I wore a badge and things have changed a lot since then.
What I figured was the case, but not going to change much I'd think either. It's my understanding that most LEOs come to realize what they arrive to find often does not match with dispatch sent them to:
Officer Who Shot Atatiana Jefferson Wasn't Told It Was A Welfare Check
Fort Worth police were dispatched to an "open structure" call, not a welfare check, according to Chief Ed Kraus.
Fort Worth, TX – The call that Fort Worth Police Officer Aaron Dean responded to the night he fatally shot Atatiana Jefferson was dispatched as a potential burglary report – not as a welfare check like her neighbor intended.
"The information came from the neighbor to the call-takers and while it was relayed to the dispatch, it was determined to be an open structure call," Fort Worth Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus explained during a press conference on Tuesday, according to CNN.
As a result, the officers responded to the call differently than they would have if the call would have been dispatched as a welfare check.
Cont:
https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/officer-who-shot-atatiana-jefferson-wasn-t-told-it-was-a-welfare-check-Vz1Z1ZeD9kS2-v2pciYTFg/?fbclid=IwAR0cy_ifuEsBAudAKeTRmV18Fv0DoVqsfruJYlBvcXznn8w8WxV5l3JbU7g
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-17-19, 18:03
Will,
I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.
I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.
When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.
Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.
One thing that I had done over the years was to contact the complainant, when possible, before checking a structure or responding to a call where it is not obvious a disturbance or break in is actively occurring. Once the exits of a residence were covered, I would announce police were present when challenging a person inside a dwelling. There were quite a few occasions where the homeowner was armed and no one was shot. At times, that required dispatch contacting the homeowner by telephone to confirm we were in fact the police.
If a homeowner just awakened, I wasn't surprised if they were a little confused and they did not immediately respond to direction. It was not unusual for a homeowner to be armed it they felt threatened prior to LE arrival. It was not unusual for a homeowner to be a bit defiant, after all they were in their own home.
A LEO has to be on their toes and ready to react to a lethal threat when responding to open door calls. It is also important to understand the homeowner's point of view when responding to a call, the homeowner is inside their residence and they are not immediately responding to verbal direction.
Will,
I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.
I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.
When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.
Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.
The wisest approach to policing I’ve seen stated. I am sure very many police do similar since mistaken shootings are not happening every day in every town. Treat people you encounter as you would want your family treated. Escalate as needed based on observed behavior, changing circumstances.
But even a few mistaken killings can put folks on edge. What was once unimaginable is suddenly manifest as very possible.
Will,
I totally get what they are saying, but the fact is, most calls arent what they were dispatched to be. Many harassments and check wellbeings end up being murder/suicide/hostage etc. Many disturbances, assaults in progress, shots fired etc end up being nothing. Cops who get amped up on the way to calls, and who come up with their own conclusions prior to arriving and assessing, often make the biggest mistakes.
I got very seriously injured in May of last year on a simple knock and talk. Things change. Be ready and prepared for the worst, but dont respond like every call is going to kill you. If you do that, you'll miss out on clues that will keep things like this from happening.
When responding to an open door, I like to gather as much info as possible. Prior calls at the address, homeowner info, recon on house including windows and backyard, perimeter if possible, and then announce at front door loudly numerous times before entering and clearing the house. If cops came to my house on something similar, they'd 100% see me walking around with a gun. I like to act as if I am at my house where my wife, kids, and myself live.
Police the way you would want people to police you and your family in similar situations. That will get you out of alot of trouble and avoid this nonsense.
I said that above as my understanding yes. Or, the original reason for the call was accurate, and it something totally different by the time you arrive, I'm sure is also a common thing.
Sometimes dispatchers don’t really tell you what you are getting into.
A good habit is if you get a vibe, call dispatch on your phone and find out if people are fighting or verbally arguing, if grandma lives alone and has dementia and a loaded Luger, etc etc.
Can save you so much grief.
That said, there is no way to police without getting injured at some point.
Sometimes dispatchers don’t really tell you what you are getting into.
A good habit is if you get a vibe, call dispatch on your phone and find out if people are fighting or verbally arguing, if grandma lives alone and has dementia and a loaded Luger, etc etc.
Can save you so much grief.
That said, there is no way to police without getting injured at some point.
It is a crime that police need to do that, but it is true.
I did a vehicle stop class for an agency once. Pointed out that if you thought about it, the old CYMBALS format (Color/Year/Make/Body/Additional - damage, logos. etc./License/Occupants) was the best way to identify a vehicle at a distance. I pointed out that at a distance the first thing you see is light vehicle, dark, vehicle, down through the list ending with pointing out that the tag was generally the last thing you could identify on a stop, and also the most easily changed. I encouraged then to at least give the vehicle description on their stops. Later feedback from the officers attending was 'dispatch just wanted the tag.' Instead of going in and explaining the rationale and asking/demanding the dispatchers STFU and do their jobs, what do we do? Just give the tag.
Same thing on DV's, in most jurisdiction an officer isn't certain where 322 East Polk is on the block. Easy to be one of two residences off. Instead of putzing around in the dark we suggested to dispatchers that they ask the caller to describe the residence, and what's parked out front. Great reviews for the class all across the state - it was a grant thing. Did anyone actually put it into practice? Nooooo.
Dispatchers and cops, the never ending story.
It is a crime that police need to do that, but it is true.
I did a vehicle stop class for an agency once. Pointed out that if you thought about it, the old CYMBALS format (Color/Year/Make/Body/Additional - damage, logos. etc./License/Occupants) was the best way to identify a vehicle at a distance. I pointed out that at a distance the first thing you see is light vehicle, dark, vehicle, down through the list ending with pointing out that the tag was generally the last thing you could identify on a stop, and also the most easily changed. I encouraged then to at least give the vehicle description on their stops. Later feedback from the officers attending was 'dispatch just wanted the tag.' Instead of going in and explaining the rationale and asking/demanding the dispatchers STFU and do their jobs, what do we do? Just give the tag.
Same thing on DV's, in most jurisdiction an officer isn't certain where 322 East Polk is on the block. Easy to be one of two residences off. Instead of putzing around in the dark we suggested to dispatchers that they ask the caller to describe the residence, and what's parked out front. Great reviews for the class all across the state - it was a grant thing. Did anyone actually put it into practice? Nooooo.
Dispatchers and cops, the never ending story.
Yes, even in the academy all they taught was give a tag number but as an FTO I taught my trainees year/color/make/model and made them stick to it every time. While on patrol I would make them stop the car in the middle of a block and tell me the street name and block number. After a while it became second nature to where they always knew where they were. This training worked great for us patrol officers but getting dispatchers to be accurate and specific was a whole other animal.
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