View Full Version : Are people really "tougher" than they used to be?
People were smaller pre-WW2 in general. Some people say bad guys are often harder to "stop" than they used to be.
What say you? Are violent felons "tougher" than they used to be? And since when?
Add in the crazy-ass drugs available nowadays that weren't in the past and that will make a threat more resilient to gunfire. Not "tougher" per se, but more numb.
The drug factor is real, no doubt. (Meth, synthetics, cocaine/crack)
And there is armor, too.
I don't think so.
Cole Younger has to be the toughest outlaw who ever lived. In addition to having 11 slugs in his body, one of the Northfield defenders shot away the reins to his bridle with birdshot, and Cole had to navigate his horse with his knees. Pursued by over a thousand farmers hungry for the reward ($10,000), and after a two week run in the constant rain, utilizing old newspapers for bandages on multiple wounds and wading through swollen rivers, Cole and his two brothers were captured at Hanska Slough and taken to nearby Madelia, where the outlaw leader finally removed his boots.
"And then my toenails fell off. . ."
—Cole Younger remembering his capture on September 21, 1876
SomeOtherGuy
09-07-18, 08:45
1) Drugs.
2) Nutrition - anyone born in the US has decent nutrition from day 1, and all but the absolute poorest or worst neglected have amazing nutrition, both in calories and minerals, from childhood on. Think of how many children in the 19th and early 20th centuries were half-starving for some or all of their childhood, stunted, and probably exposed to things like lead and arsenic too, and it's not hard to see why people today are much taller and larger overall. This means stronger and larger bones, which are part of toughness.
3) Fat. Fat isn't tough, but it is something the bullet has to go through, and if you have JHPs tuned for 12" of penetration hitting someone really fat, they may only get a few inches into other tissue. Not many people were fat 50+ years ago, especially in the criminal classes.
I kind of agree that the greater prevalence of narcotics, both illegal and legal leads to more chemical-addled, pain resistant perps. I would also suggest that there's more mental cases out and about in society than there used to be who don't always react to being shot in the expected way unless an instantly incapacitating hit is made. In the old days they would probably be institutionalized, but nowadays the "humane" thing to do is let them wander the streets, often under the influence of psychotropic drugs.
A more concerning trend to me may be that while the bad guys seem to be getting harder, regular people (in general) seem to be getting softer and less resilient.
ramairthree
09-07-18, 11:11
Amercia is a country of extremes.
The average overall fitness, mental and physical toughness average is probably down.
There are tons more very unhealthy, very out of shape, dregs out there than never before.
But guys looking to be bigger, stronger, faster are bigger and stronger and faster than ever before.
Fifty years ago how many LEOs came face to face with a six foot five guy that had recently spent the past ten years being well fed, learning how to fight, and lifting weights. Let alone after just smoking a bunch of crack.
Fifty years ago, where they even had ambulance crews that weren’t hearses, how many people would call an ambulance for twisting an ankle, because they weigh 600 pounds and can’t get up, or skipped dialysis again?
I think the average height of an adult male went from 5’9” to 5’11 or somover the past fifty years.
And that may be skewed, we now have way more little brown guys to average in.
Doc Safari
09-07-18, 11:26
I concur with the drug thing. I was on a crime scene where a homeowner's guns had been stolen. Supposedly his girlfriend's ex-husband had taken a bunch of meth and broken into his wood-and-glass gun cabinet. Get this: the gun cabinet was so violently destroyed that it was reduced to shards of wood no bigger than your index finger.
Bigger? yes. Tougher? no.
People today have much better nutrition than before and therefor can and generally are much larger. But people from the past lived harder lives. So Id say your average person, pound for pound, was definitely tougher back in the day.
My grandfather was born in the early 20s. Grew up a poor farmer during the depression. Joined the USMC after Pearl Harbor. Spent several years in the Pacific fighting at Guadacanal, Peliliu, and Okinawah. One of his platoon buddies swears that the opening scenes from the show "The Pacific" shows my grandfather storming a beach. After WW2 he became an oil driller for Haliburton which he did until around 1990 when he retired. He never bitched about anything. The only story from WW2 he would tell was getting strafed by Japanese planes and the bunker he was in was full which left his butt sticking out in the air. He thought he was going to get his butt shot off. When he became ill and was dying he wished not be kept alive by life support. After he went into a coma and the hospital removed all medical support, that 90+ year old man survived for 9 days when the doctors expected him to pass within hours. Toughest man I have ever known.
^^^ This. You might be bigger, you might be stronger, but in the past you had to be tougher and work harder just to survive.
Some yes, some no.
I think of tough, I think of this kid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacklyn_H._Lucas
But subject the same kind of people to the same hardships, circumstances and sense of duty and they will still amaze you. Lots of people then and now who should have died, but just didn't.
Moose-Knuckle
09-07-18, 15:13
Funny, I find the opposite to be true.
By in large the average first worlder in the 21st Century is weak sauce.
Averageman
09-07-18, 16:35
People used to be much more self reliant, better analytical thinkers and they didn't have many other options, it was sink or swim.
You didn't get fat working on a Farm with a half dozen Brothers working living and eating along side you everyday. You learned some skills though and passed them on.
I have an Uncle that was a Cowboy, a WWII Paratrooper, had maybe a seventh grade education before he rode a horse from Wyoming to Mexico City. He owned a ranch, several business and even got in to local politics. You just couldn't stop him or talk him out of doing what he wanted to do.
I was proud to know him, he was a hell of a guy.
People used to be much more self reliant, better analytical thinkers and they didn't have many other options, it was sink or swim.
You didn't get fat working on a Farm with a half dozen Brothers working living and eating along side you everyday. You learned some skills though and passed them on.
I have an Uncle that was a Cowboy, a WWII Paratrooper, had maybe a seventh grade education before he rode a horse from Wyoming to Mexico City. He owned a ranch, several business and even got in to local politics. You just couldn't stop him or talk him out of doing what he wanted to do.
I was proud to know him, he was a hell of a guy.
Urban vs rural. Lots of weak ass losers then as now. Perhaps the only difference is we used to call them out more, but the problem is we also called out a lot of people with genuine medical conditions that we didn't understand and shamed them as lazy.
I don't think it is a matter of the new generation being tougher or weaker, I think it is more a matter that many of them haven't ever tested themselves so they don't have confidence in what they can do/endure.
When things get tough, the first thing that quits is the mind.
Personally, MCRD and MCES were what gave me the confidence to expect success from myself. I honestly believe that if I hadn't had that experience, I would not have achieved what little I have achieved.
Some folks are never tested in circumstances that lead them to believe their worth is at stake, those that are, and come out the other side intact, are harder for it, whether it be physically, mentally, or spiritually.
I saw how tough my wife was years ago when I had the roof stripped off the house and a thunderstorm hit. She's scared to death to get on a ladder, you wouldn't have known it that night. I got to say, I looked at her with a new kind of respect after that.
It is a shame that many folks never have a defining moment.
Averageman
09-07-18, 20:21
There is an amazing amount of science and technology available for a Man to make anything he chooses out of himself today.
Certainly the modern Americans I run across probably have the strongest thumb and index fingers in human history. They get a work-out operating those Smart Phones 18 hours a day, probably to the point of developing calluses.
Nowadays some are bigger and stronger but many, many more are fatter and lazier.
Before antibiotics, anyone alive after 5 yrs old had a much stronger immune system than any Western person today.
Mental toughness— I am really impressed with many in uniform today, but overall the population is soft and squishy. As others have said older family members from the 1890s-1940s were often tough as nails and rarely complained about their hardships. Grandfather ran away from abusive dad at 12 yrs and made a go in logging camps, then busting horses for WWI at 16, and later riding log floats down rivers to mills. Many other stories that make many of our modern lives look cushy and lax.
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Funny, I find the opposite to be true.
By in large the average first worlder in the 21st Century is weak sauce.
I agree.
I think every generation back is tougher than the one that succeeds them.
I agree.
I think every generation back is tougher than the one that succeeds them.
Maybe... I'm every bit as tough as my father, probably tougher. I certainly work harder than he did. Not to say he didn't work hard and set a good example for me, he was just one of those guys that did just enough. If we are going to generalize, the baby boomers are responsible for the track we are on now.
Maybe... I'm every bit as tough as my father, probably tougher. I certainly work harder than he did. Not to say he didn't work hard and set a good example for me, he was just one of those guys that did just enough. If we are going to generalize, the baby boomers are responsible for the track we are on now.
Depends when and where you go back to. Could I have survived as an affluent land owner in New England in the 1700s? I like to think so and the only think I'd really miss is modern medicine...and pizza.
But could I have gone out on my own like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett (related to both men btw, although distantly) and lived by my wits and rifle in untamed lands having to hunt for my every meal...pretty sure not a chance in hell I could have pulled that off. Those guys were lots tougher than me.
Military combat experience is pretty universal. You are either in a place that's way too hot or way too cold, with little or no actual creature comforts and a bunch of radicalized insane people want to try and kill you. From the Battle of the Bulge to Iwo Jima to Vietnam to Afghanistan to Iraq the experience is generally the same. Coming to terms with the fact that you could die in a far off land for something you may not completely understand pretty and you have little or no control about how things are going to play out much sets the bar for everyone.
Doesn't matter if you did that in the 1700s, 1800s, 1900s or last month, that's "tough" by most definitions.
Moose-Knuckle
09-08-18, 06:05
What say you? Are violent felons "tougher" than they used to be? And since when?
One thing we have to understand is that the modern criminal classes have been embolden by fifty years of leftist orthodoxy. Go spend some time over on Liveleak and Worldstarhiphop sometime. Criminals use to know if they talked sideways to a LEO they would get a blackjack across the noggin. Fast forward eight years of the great community organizer's war on the police and here we are.
Also, there is a metric shit ton of data out there showing that the average male testosterone is down at historic levels. Even fish in our lakes and rivers are found to have high amounts of synthetic estrogens. This is due in part to industrial pollution and the fact that a large number of the female population (don't forget the trannies) urine carry such contaminants into the water cycle. Water treatment plants cannot filter out such pharmaceuticals among other things.
I agree.
I think every generation back is tougher than the one that succeeds them.
To think our ancestors survived an ice age and megafauna with nothing more than sharpened sticks. It's just a matter of time before homo sapiens experience our next reset. Much like how a forest fire has to destroy a forest in order to regenerate the various species.
Better nutrition, better medical care....yes people are larger that in the past. Conversely, overall public health is declining due to the extraordinarily high percentage of the population that is obese (60% or more). As in many areas, the US leads the world in obesity and obesity-related diseases. We are closing in on the point where the current generation will have a shorter life expectancy than the one preceding it.
Maybe... I'm every bit as tough as my father, probably tougher. I certainly work harder than he did. Not to say he didn't work hard and set a good example for me, he was just one of those guys that did just enough. If we are going to generalize, the baby boomers are responsible for the track we are on now.
My comment wasn’t about comparing every individual male ever born with his dad.
Just an overall observation/opinion.
Better nutrition, better medical care....yes people are larger that in the past. Conversely, overall public health is declining due to the extraordinarily high percentage of the population that is obese (60% or more). As in many areas, the US leads the world in obesity and obesity-related diseases. We are closing in on the point where the current generation will have a shorter life expectancy than the one preceding it.
Yes, since we do not have to chase our food anymore and there is a McD's on every corner food is readily accessible. Not to mention the welfare state where people are paid and fed to stay home and do nothing when 100 years ago they would have starved. I have seen several times an obese person in the grocery line in front of me with two carts of sodas, tv dinners and doritos whip out an EBT card to pay for it all. Then they whip out the cash for beer and cigarettes.
Moose-Knuckle
09-08-18, 08:04
I have seen several times an obese person in the grocery line in front of me with two carts of sodas, tv dinners and doritos whip out an EBT card to pay for it all.
You can tell what time of the month it is for sure. I've noticed the two cart method as well, every single time TWO CARTS full of junk food.
Judging by the size of the petrified wood chunks my Dad hauled out of the Black Hills to decorate their flower garden, I'm a girly man in comparison.
Andy
To think our ancestors survived an ice age and megafauna with nothing more than sharpened sticks. It's just a matter of time before homo sapiens experience our next reset. Much like how a forest fire has to destroy a forest in order to regenerate the various species.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
SomeOtherGuy
09-08-18, 10:29
So we have three pages of "when I was your age" type posts about the modern soyboy, but OP's question was this:
People were smaller pre-WW2 in general. Some people say bad guys are often harder to "stop" than they used to be.
What say you? Are violent felons "tougher" than they used to be? And since when?
I guess you could interpret that more than one way, but I read it as "does the typical bad guy take more gunshot wounds to stop his violent assault than was true 80 years ago?"
A person's will and mental toughness is a factor in this, but I have to think that size and bone strength is also important. Just as deer and elk are similar but differ in size, modern well-fed felon may be mentally weaker but physically larger than 19th century malnourished-and-stunted felon.
Averageman
09-08-18, 10:53
The potential is pretty much limited to how strong your mind is.
You can make yourself anything you want to be in this age. You could take someone with the motivation to develop their mind and physical body to some pretty crazy places today.
The only limit of how tough you are seems to be between ones ears.
If my experience in the Military taught me anything it was that the toughest Soldiers were able to keep going when cold, wet, exhausted and they maintained a mental acuity that allowed them to continue the mission. It wasn't always the biggest baddest guys who you might think who could do that, sometimes the quiet and unassuming who were just solid performers would be the toughest.
To answer the OP, no our criminals are not tougher, but they are a whole bunch bigger on the average. They also tend to survive being shot at a much higher rate. If you live long enough to make it to the emergence room these days, handgun wounds are pretty survivable.
Andy
To answer the OP, no our criminals are not tougher, but they are a whole bunch bigger on the average. They also tend to survive being shot at a much higher rate. If you live long enough to make it to the emergence room these days, handgun wounds are pretty survivable.
Andy
I would be inclined to doubt that that is solely due to people being bigger and tougher these days and I suspect that it is more likely due to more advanced pre-hospital and ED care. I see a lot of injured people in the ED. I don’t perceive any kind of physiologic superiority of your average ED patient. I’ve been seeing those patients over the last 40 years.
I would be inclined to doubt that that is solely due to people being bigger and tougher these days and I suspect that it is more likely due to more advanced pre-hospital and ED care. I see a lot of injured people in the ED. I don’t perceive any kind of physiologic superiority of your average ED patient. I’ve been seeing those patients over the last 40 years.
I did say they were bigger, not tougher. I stand by that statement. The average over 20 American male weight is 195.7 lbs, in 1960 the average weight was 166 lbs (source link at bottom of post). That is a big change and means more penetration is required to hit vital organs in the torso.
You are absolutely right, they survive because of improved care. I meant to emphasize that, obviously I did a poor job.
Andy
https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/average-weight-for-men
I did say they were bigger, not tougher. I stand by that statement. The average over 20 American male weight is 195.7 lbs, in 1960 the average weight was 166 lbs (source link at bottom of post). That is a big change and means more penetration is required to hit vital organs in the torso.
You are absolutely right, they survive because of improved care. I meant to emphasize that, obviously I did a poor job.
Andy
https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/average-weight-for-men
Well, you bet they are bigger, but that mostly means fatter. The technical consequences of operating on those generally-larger people in the OR isn't that big a problem since most are done laparoscopically these days, but the co-morbid conditions that go along with that obesity most definitely makes for a higher complication rate and more difficult post-operative care.
I did say they were bigger, not tougher. I stand by that statement. The average over 20 American male weight is 195.7 lbs, in 1960 the average weight was 166 lbs
You are absolutely right, they survive because of improved care. I meant to emphasize that, obviously I did a poor job.
Where this really hit me between the eyes was on a visit to the U.S. Calvary Museum at Fort Riley. The uniforms and accoutrements of the Calvary Officer of that era looked as if they were made for a prepubescent male of today.
So we have three pages of "when I was your age" type posts about the modern soyboy, but OP's question was this:
I guess you could interpret that more than one way, but I read it as "does the typical bad guy take more gunshot wounds to stop his violent assault than was true 80 years ago?"
A person's will and mental toughness is a factor in this, but I have to think that size and bone strength is also important. Just as deer and elk are similar but differ in size, modern well-fed felon may be mentally weaker but physically larger than 19th century malnourished-and-stunted felon.
Yup. That's what I was getting at.
I will add that in years long past, career criminals knew when their own got shot, they died of infection and other complications often, even if they lived through that day. And even if they survived all that they had a high chance of being executed for their crimes.
These day's, career criminals know more buddies, family, and enemies who were shot and survived. And of course, they know of the revolving prison doors. Those that live that life I mean.
ramairthree
09-09-18, 09:03
Yes.
Improved prehospital care, ERs, modern trauma care, etc. do change a lot of outcomes.
The size thing is relative.
The 25 year old logger that weighs 180 with ten percent body fat is going to bring over 160 pounds of lean body mass to the fight. The 25 year old urban kid weighing 220 with 30% body fat is being less than 160 pounds of lean body mass to the fight.
Stronger maybe but not “tougher” necessarily. Exclude military, Olympic athletes and possibly pro sports athletes. The rise of the soy boy and ultra feminazi has pretty much pussified our society compared to WW2 and prior generations. Milennials are the new “strong”.
SomeOtherGuy
09-09-18, 17:28
Stronger maybe but not “tougher” necessarily. Exclude military, Olympic athletes and possibly pro sports athletes. The rise of the soy boy and ultra feminazi has pretty much pussified our society compared to WW2 and prior generations. Milennials are the new “strong”.
As others have said, there's a very wide range now. Somehow I don't picture a soyboy stalking me back to my car and trying to rob me in a mall parking lot. Who knows. There have been some very entertaining videos of what happens when leftist soyboys overestimate their capabilities in stupid street fighting.
I have little doubt that the average male, among all US males, is weaker in all ways than 80 years ago - sadly. I've read anecdotal articles about studies on grip strength, etc. that seem to prove this scientifically. However, I don't know if that would necessarily be true of the criminal classes (whether white, black or other) because those groups would have been terribly malnourished 80+ years ago, and for the most part they are not at all malnourished today.
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