View Full Version : Sionics Enhanced 2-Stage Trigger
Sionics listed these during their Labor Day sale and I am looking for some feedback on these before I pull the trigger on one. Pun intended. The price is solid for a NP3 coated trigger and I really like their enhanced triggers. Link: http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store2015/lower-receiver-parts/214-bolt-carrier-group-hpmpi-tested-with-np3-carrier.html
If I can lay my healing hands upon one, I'll do a review, but I haven't see or heard of any in the wild.
titsonritz
09-08-18, 01:27
I guess I missed this on Labor Day or I'd have got it over the Geissele SD-C I picked up just to check it out. The web site says they are currently on sale, does that infer this an intro price with an increase to be expected?
FYI, their web site says they have 25 in stock now, still on sale.
I wanted to update the thread. I purchased one and it arrived yesterday. I installed it and have been dry firing with it and it is really smooth, with a noticeable wall and break, as well as a very crisp, distinctive reset. It has a wider trigger bow and is very similar to the LaRue MBT with regard to its overall form factor. I can't wait to get to the range with it and see what it does.
I’m surprised they don’t list the stage pull weights. If it’s like 2.5/2.0 I’d try one. But I don’t need another with a light second stage like the enhanced SSA-E.
EDIT: I ordered one anyway since I trust these guys to make quality stuff and the inventory looked to be shrinking fast.
Very interested in reports from those who purchased.
Tough to beat the MBT-2S right now, but this one at least has me curious.
richiecotite
02-14-19, 11:25
They're on sale for $79.99...any reason to get this, over a Larue MBT?
There's very little info on the web about these triggers. Does anyone have any hands on experience?
Actually there is plenty of info. I received mine. It is stamped "1005 tactical." Frankly, I was a bit disappointed that this is not clearly stated in the sionics web site that they are selling the 1005 tactical trigger. To specifically answer your question, IMHO, the 1005 TT is not in the same league as the Larue. If I am mistaken, or these are built to a different standard then I would hope IG will correct me. However, a few of my shooting friends bought these triggers from a different vendor and were disappointed. In shooting their guns, I was not impressed. The first stage seems to stack (hard to explain) and a bit of creep. It seems to measure over 1.5 on the 1st stage and overall runs around 4.75. In my case, I am getting similar results. The reset seems a bit long as well.
I am an incredible fan of sionics, but, again IMHO, I unfortunately can't give this trigger a thumbs up. YMMV.
https://www.at3tactical.com/products/1005-tactical-2-stage-nickel-boron-ar-15-trigger-assembly-4-5-lbs-pull-weight
Cheers, Steve
I bought one recently but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. No problems with installation. As noted above it's marked "1005 Tactical." Based on dry firing it my initial impressions are that it's Ok. Not stellar, but not terrible either. The first stage is smooth with no stacking and a very definite wall. The second stage though feels a little mushy to me. It seems to have a little drag and the break isn't as clean as I would like it be. I'm comparing it to Geissele SD-E and SD-C triggers that I have in other guns. I went in knowing that I would not get the same level of performance out of this trigger as I do out of triggers that cost two or three times as much so in that regard I guess it's about what it should be. I'm curious to see if the second stage will smooth out any with use.
richiecotite
02-15-19, 17:06
Thanks for the info.
I ended up ordering it, mostly because I had other items in the cart and was going to order a trigger anyway.
Had no idea it’s another company’s trigger. Seems like PSA and a few others sell it as their own. Got a chance to search for reviews for 1005 and it seems generally mixed, but positive. For reference the nicest trigger I’ve shot is the BCM’s NiB fcg that comes with their LPK. I’ve got an MBT in an orphan lower, and dry firing it feels great.
I figure that if Sionics has it up and says its reliable, it’s worth a shot. Worst case it’ll go on my cheap PSA pistol.
If anyone in NoVa wants to give it twirl, let me know.
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BufordTJustice
02-16-19, 12:04
Thanks for the info.
I ended up ordering it, mostly because I had other items in the cart and was going to order a trigger anyway.
Had no idea it’s another company’s trigger. Seems like PSA and a few others sell it as their own. Got a chance to search for reviews for 1005 and it seems generally mixed, but positive. For reference the nicest trigger I’ve shot is the BCM’s NiB fcg that comes with their LPK. I’ve got an MBT in an orphan lower, and dry firing it feels great.
I figure that if Sionics has it up and says its reliable, it’s worth a shot. Worst case it’ll go on my cheap PSA pistol.
If anyone in NoVa wants to give it twirl, let me know.
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Yeah I didn't know this either. I grabbed one. It's okay. It straddles the ground between a QMS and an MBT-2S. I'm surprised at the amount of, not grit, but excess texture that I'm getting at the break. Not really super happy with it. Compared it to an SSA and SSA-E... which is not really fair in the truest sense, but those are what I use. It's not in the same category. More creep, less refinement. Longer reset.
I've shot several MBT's and they're better... an MBT from a good batch can give an SSA a decent run in most aspects of performance and feel... though I wouldn't call them a direct equal to the SSA in an absolute sense, they're really close. This Sionics trigger is not close to an SSA.
I'm a little disappointed, to be honest. It's got overlap with an ALG ECT but it's also better in some areas. This is with about 40 lubed (with grease) dry fire pulls in a spare lower.
Mine will be going up in the EE at a healthy discount in a bit. I'll be grabbing an MBT-2S.
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Looks a lot like the Ruger Elite 452 MSR Trigger , https://www.ruger.com/micros/AR-Trigger/index.html ,
or the PSA 2 stage NiB trigger https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-2-stage-nickel-boron-trigger-assembly-516447205.html ,
... DSG Arms, https://dsgarms.com/dsg-4202-0012
, Foxtrot Mikes...ttps://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-fm-9-match-grade-competition-trigger-nickel-boron-prod113316.aspx?avad=avant&aid=41227&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-fm-9-match-grade-competition-trigger-nickel-boron-prod113316.aspx?avad=avant&aid=41227&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine)
These very similiar triggers are lots of places... under a variety of names.... Ruger being the earliest I have seen.
Looks a lot like the Ruger Elite 452 MSR Trigger , https://www.ruger.com/micros/AR-Trigger/index.html ,
or the PSA 2 stage NiB trigger https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-2-stage-nickel-boron-trigger-assembly-516447205.html ,
... DSG Arms, https://dsgarms.com/dsg-4202-0012
, Foxtrot Mikes...ttps://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-fm-9-match-grade-competition-trigger-nickel-boron-prod113316.aspx?avad=avant&aid=41227&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/triggers-parts/triggers/ar-15-fm-9-match-grade-competition-trigger-nickel-boron-prod113316.aspx?avad=avant&aid=41227&cm_mmc=affiliate-_-Itwine-_-Avantlink-_-Custom+Link&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_content=NA&utm_campaign=Itwine)
These very similiar triggers are lots of places... under a variety of names.... Ruger being the earliest I have seen.
I believe they're all just Schmid Tool's own two-stage trigger.
These very similiar triggers are lots of places... under a variety of names.... Ruger being the earliest I have seen.
Stag's look similar as well. Over Cyber-Monday they had them for $49.99. I passed.
https://www.stagarms.com/nickel-boron-two-stage-trigger-set/
I'll give one of these a try next to a broken in SSA-E and a newer MBT.
I believe they're all just Schmid Tool's own two-stage trigger.
They are.
RVTMaverick
02-22-19, 07:22
I have to say,
https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/_p/POF-00858.htm
I am Shock that these POF triggers are not WAY More Popular around here, IMHO: These are the "BEST Bang for the Buck", Plus it comes with KNS anti rotation pin- thingies.;)
Try it, You Will Love it and Thank Me all the way home from the range!:cool:
I am Shock that these POF triggers are not WAY More Popular around here
Because-
- It's a crisp single stage which has reduced sear engagement that's unsuitable for a self loading rifle subjected to rough handling
- It's a cassette trigger that will be difficult to clear if a popped primary gets in it
- It comes with KNS anti rotation pins
BLUF:
USGI- 4-6/10
Sionics Enhanced 2-stage- 7.5/10
LaRue MBT-2S- 8.5/10
Geissele SSA-E- 9.5/10
I installed the Sionics Enhanced 2-stage trigger, and dry fired it next to a newer USGI, a new MBT-2S, and a used SSA-E. My current feelings are as follows, based solely on my experience of shooting 5k-10k rounds yearly through a variety of weapons without focusing on any weapon system in particular. (Most of my rifles and issued rifles have USGI triggers.)
USGI trigger- 4-6/10. Not a bad deal in the $40 range. Can range from decent to horrible, mostly being ok. Last rifle I was issued was possibly 10 pounds, one before that was probably 7. NP3, PNT, etc obviously nicer than stock gritty version.
Sionics Enhanced 2-stage-7.5/10
4lbs 8.1oz average. Proper price/value. It actually feels pretty good, but it does feel as advertised, and it isn't advertised as a match trigger. Think of a budget MBT-2S.
LaRue MBT-2S - 8.5/10
4lbs 1.6oz average. Exceptional price/value. I actually feel it's worth more than they charge. Very close to the SSA-E, but not quite, though it's more than forgivable at its price. Think of a budget Geissele.
SSA-E -9.5/10
3lbs 9.6oz average. The gold standard in my book. As much of a "you get what you pay for" product as I can quantify. I paid $175 for mine. For most applications, not worth the $100 premium over the MBT, but it's everything I'm looking for in a non-adjustable match trigger for.a precision AR.
I feel like you really start to pay for the quality of the second stage break once you move into the higher end triggers.
Just my humble $.02
BufordTJustice
03-05-19, 19:46
BLUF:
USGI- 4-6/10
Sionics Enhanced 2-stage- 7.5/10
LaRue MBT-2S- 8.5/10
Geissele SSA-E- 9.5/10
I installed the Sionics Enhanced 2-stage trigger, and dry fired it next to a newer USGI, a new MBT-2S, and a used SSA-E. My current feelings are as follows, based solely on my experience of shooting 5k-10k rounds yearly through a variety of weapons without focusing on any weapon system in particular. (Most of my rifles and issued rifles have USGI triggers.)
USGI trigger- 4-6/10. Not a bad deal in the $40 range. Can range from decent to horrible, mostly being ok. Last rifle I was issued was possibly 10 pounds, one before that was probably 7. NP3, PNT, etc obviously nicer than stock gritty version.
Sionics Enhanced 2-stage-7.5/10
4lbs 8.1oz average. Proper price/value. It actually feels pretty good, but it does feel as advertised, and it isn't advertised as a match trigger. Think of a budget MBT-2S.
LaRue MBT-2S - 8.5/10
4lbs 1.6oz average. Exceptional price/value. I actually feel it's worth more than they charge. Very close to the SSA-E, but not quite, though it's more than forgivable at its price. Think of a budget Geissele.
SSA-E -9.5/10
3lbs 9.6oz average. The gold standard in my book. As much of a "you get what you pay for" product as I can quantify. I paid $175 for mine. For most applications, not worth the $100 premium over the MBT, but it's everything I'm looking for in a non-adjustable match trigger for.a precision AR.
I feel like you really start to pay for the quality of the second stage break once you move into the higher end triggers.
Just my humble $.02
My MBT came in today. I concur with all of your above observations and will add the following:
The MBT is essentially identical in quality (though not necessarily in the character of the pull) to a Geissele G2S and damn close to an SSA. My duty rifle has an SSA-E and, as stated by taekwondo preacher, the SSA-E is still better. The reset is more crisp and sharp, the second stage is damn near perfect (and really IS perfect for a true combat trigger and all the toughness that implies). But, the MBT is a disproportionately good trigger for its price. It is indeed worth more than the current price of $87. The Sionics is inferior to the Larue in an absolute sense but it is still a very good value at roughly the same price. However, unless Sionics reduces their price by 20% or Larue increases theirs, the MBT is the no brainer of sub-$100 triggers. Period. End transmission.
And my impressions of the MBT (which have been still yet confirmed by this newest example) are based on my installing it BONE DRY. It came with a small portion of grease on the sear and hammer interface surfaces, but the entire trigger shoe and disconnector, along with all the pins, were installed BONE DRY. When I installed the Sionics, I basically over lubed it (all interface surfaces, both of the pins, pin holes in the lower, and pin bores in the trigger shoe and hammer), while I did none of that for the intial install of the MBT. With a small portion of Lucas Extreme gun oil applied via a needle oiler to the sear and disconnector (pins still bone dry), the MBT gets even better. And this is prior to any break in, just dry pulls in a lower.
Bottom line/TLDR: the MBT is better in every way and should cost more than it does.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190306/cbb870e8ba0919ad2423f3e575d20f41.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190306/9043345d4da8b610c2a9741aa6bce718.jpg
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Falshooter
03-06-19, 06:48
No experience with those 3 but the Sionics Enhanced Mil-Spec trigger is great if you haven't seen those yet. I'll be using that trigger on all my future builds that need a GI type trigger.
It's nickel Teflon like the others. Buy the Lower Parts Kit - Enhanced (LPK-E) from them for $80 and you're basically getting a high quality lower parts kit for $15 bucks over the cost of what the triggers alone go for from BCM or ALG.
I put one of these in a rifle about a week ago. I’ve shot a few hundred rounds, and several dozen dry fire reps. Yesterday, I dry fired it side by side with a SSA, and later side by side with live ammo. Having read the earlier posts, I must assume that the Sionics 2 stage is inconsistent from model to model, because I love it. I actually prefer it to the SSA in my 16” lightweight carbine with Aimpoint.
Mine has no stacking in the first stage, and a well defined wall. Slight creep on the second stage. Resets crisply to the beginning of the second stage, so it feels like a decent single stage on follow up shots. Thats the part I really like about it, even though previous posters did not like the reset. It actually “feels” shorter in pull and reset than my SSA, but I have not attempted to measure the pull distances or weights. I also have not attempted to measure split time differences, so this is very subjective, and a sample of one SSA and one Sionics, which are the only 2 two stage triggers I have owned. All of my previous triggers that I have owned have been military, “mil-spec”, Hiperfire EDT2, and coated “mil-spec” triggers, such as ALG. All single stage except the aforementioned two. I’m no trigger snob, and lack experience with expensive triggers.
My takeaway is that the SSA may be better in some ways, but the Sionics two stage trigger, at least my one sample, works well for me in CQM type training, and is not a limiting factor when range increases. I’ll be trying another soon, and hoping for the same results.
What is a 1005 trigger ? Could Sionics bought these 1005’s then NP3’d them ?
PB
What is a 1005 trigger ? Could Sionics bought these 1005’s then NP3’d them ?
PB
This: https://www.botach.com/1005-tactical-2-stage-ar15-m4-nib-x-nickel-boron-trigger-assembly/
Made by Schmidt tool. Multiple companies OEM it and sell under their brand name including Palmetto, DSG Arms, and etc.
SeriousStudent
05-28-19, 17:34
Botach always gives me the heebiest of jeebies. Their customer service is legendary, and not in a good way.
I would also be concerned about the use of a nickel-boron coating, rather than an NP3 coating from Robar. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue with nickel-boron coatings, and is detrimental to service life for parts that are subject top impacts. A hammer, by definition, fits into that category.
No question that Schmid (no "t") makes good stuff, many people use them as the base for their triggers. http://www.schmidtool.com/cnc-machining-steel-trigger-military-industry.html
But an aftermarket process that reduces life gives me pause.
And Mistwolf is exactly right about digging a blown primer out of a cassette system, it's a real bear to attempt. That happens a lot more than people think, too. One slightly high powder charge will do it.
Hope that helps.
This is the only thing I have ever bought from Sionics that I have been disappointed with and I ended up selling it. If I had known up front that it was a rebranded trigger from someone else I wouldn't have bought it. The best trigger in this price range that I have used so far is the LaRue MBT.
I would also be concerned about the use of a nickel-boron coating, rather than an NP3 coating from Robar. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue with nickel-boron coatings, and is detrimental to service life for parts that are subject top impacts. A hammer, by definition, fits into that category.
Good point, and that goes partway to explaining why the ALG ACT has nickel boron on the trigger, and nickel teflon on the hammer. I’ll update this thread if I manage to break it or wear it out. Currently, its a fairly unproven part as far as durability goes. Perhaps it doesn’t belong in a duty weapon until there are some high mileage reports available.
I’d be interested in participation from Iraqgunz or SteveO in this thread to have some insight on the vetting Sionics did before selling these and what led them to the nickel boron coating.
Botach always gives me the heebiest of jeebies. Their customer service is legendary, and not in a good way.
I would also be concerned about the use of a nickel-boron coating, rather than an NP3 coating from Robar. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue with nickel-boron coatings, and is detrimental to service life for parts that are subject top impacts. A hammer, by definition, fits into that category.
No question that Schmid (no "t") makes good stuff, many people use them as the base for their triggers. http://www.schmidtool.com/cnc-machining-steel-trigger-military-industry.html
But an aftermarket process that reduces life gives me pause.
And Mistwolf is exactly right about digging a blown primer out of a cassette system, it's a real bear to attempt. That happens a lot more than people think, too. One slightly high powder charge will do it.
Hope that helps.
But this is a trigger, not a hammer.
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richiecotite
05-28-19, 20:07
I have the sionics trigger in an A2 stocked lower and a few MBT’s in other lowers. The MBT is better, but the sionics is no slouch. Short and light first stage, defined wall, crisp break.i used the included grease/lube and I like it. I think at $69.99 it’s fairly priced compared to the MBT
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Straight Shooter
05-28-19, 20:30
Have read on this forum these are/might be/could be/maybe the same as the PSA trigger..I dont know..but I have 1150 rounds on mine from PSA and love it. Got it on sale for under $30 last year. Damn good trigger.esp. for the price.
Course-being from PSA itll fall apart any day now according to some.
everready73
05-28-19, 21:54
Have read on this forum these are/might be/could be/maybe the same as the PSA trigger..I dont know..but I have 1150 rounds on mine from PSA and love it. Got it on sale for under $30 last year. Damn good trigger.esp. for the price.
Course-being from PSA itll fall apart any day now according to some.
Not sure if they are the same or not. Markings make one believe they are, but people are referring to the 2 stage trigger not PSA's regular enhanced trigger which I am assuming you're talking about if it was $30. Their 2 stage is around $70 on sale which is what people are saying may be the same
Straight Shooter
05-29-19, 05:42
Not sure if they are the same or not. Markings make one believe they are, but people are referring to the 2 stage trigger not PSA's regular enhanced trigger which I am assuming you're talking about if it was $30. Their 2 stage is around $70 on sale which is what people are saying may be the same
Thank you for that info...noted.
everready73
05-29-19, 07:56
Thank you for that info...noted.
I have PSA EPT trigger in a loaner gun and it is solid for the $30 it cost. Never an issue with a few thousand rounds. Right to Bear also has a decent Nickel Teflon trigger for under $40. That is my go to if i dont put an MBT in
everready73
05-29-19, 07:56
Thank you for that info...noted.
Double Post
The part that strikes the firing pin is called a hammer.
But this is a trigger, not a hammer.
grizzlyblake
05-29-19, 14:40
...
I would also be concerned about the use of a nickel-boron coating, rather than an NP3 coating from Robar. Hydrogen embrittlement is a real issue with nickel-boron coatings, and is detrimental to service life for parts that are subject top impacts. A hammer, by definition, fits into that category.
No question that Schmid (no "t") makes good stuff, many people use them as the base for their triggers. http://www.schmidtool.com/cnc-machining-steel-trigger-military-industry.html
But an aftermarket process that reduces life gives me pause.
...
Some more discussion about this would be really appreciated. I would certainly be willing to swap out for their mil-spec trigger if this is a true concern.
SeriousStudent
05-29-19, 18:16
Sionics only uses NP3, which is very different from nickel-boron. Nickel-boron coatings are the ones to reconsider. NP3 is most excellent, and provides built-in lubricity on the coated surfaces.
I have three Sionics triggers, and have found them to be an excellent buy for the money.
https://robarguns.com/custom-firearm-finishes/np3/
https://www.finishing.com/82/54.shtml
grizzlyblake
05-29-19, 21:38
But the Sionics 2 Stage trigger, which is the 10-05 trigger, is listed as NiB. That's what I have in my rifle so your earlier post concerned me.
Sionics lists their mil-spec trigger as Nickel PTFE, so is that essentially NP3?
Correct.
But the Sionics 2 Stage trigger, which is the 10-05 trigger, is listed as NiB. That's what I have in my rifle so your earlier post concerned me.
Sionics lists their mil-spec trigger as Nickel PTFE, so is that essentially NP3?
I’ll let y’all know if I break mine. I’ll be shooting +500 a month through this particular gun.
grizzlyblake
05-30-19, 09:56
** Deleted Duplicate
grizzlyblake
05-30-19, 14:05
** Edited - Strange issues with my posts disappearing in this thread today
So reading about the NP3 vs NiB (Nickel Boron), essentially the NiB finish that is applied to metal gets its "slickness" from many microscopic high points in the finish that create a low drag coefficient. However as that finish wears the high points down the surface area increases and the drag coefficient increases. This would mean a NiB trigger would actually get stickier and lose "slickness" as it breaks in, and that would continue to deteriorate over time. The opposite of every other normal trigger that gets better over time.
The "hydrogen embrittlement" thing basically is a symptom of the NiB treatment process that allows hydrogen to seep into the metal weakening it and allowing premature cracks and breaks that would otherwise not take place, especially in metal subject to impacts.
On paper the 10-05 2-Stage Trigger that Sionics and others sell looks kind of like a mess for those two reasons, while their "Enhanced Mil-spec Trigger" is Nickel PTFE (NP3) coated and would not have the same issues. I do not know if either of these two issues are measurable or something to worry about, although Robar says so since they are the NP3 people.
Pretty weird about the posts not showing up. I saw the email notification though.
If it's a cause for concern because this is your go-to, I'd swap it out. Otherwise, periodically check for cracks and chipping on the face of the hammer. I wouldn't think that it would fail catastrophically, but confidence in your weapon is critical, right? On the flip side, you might never see anything wrong with it ever.
richiecotite
05-30-19, 17:43
Unless I was shooting 10k rounds a year, I wouldn’t be too concerned. If anyone is and wants to trade their 1005 tac/sionics trigger for a BCM PNT let me know.
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Unless I was shooting 10k rounds a year, I wouldn’t be too concerned. If anyone is and wants to trade their 1005 tac/sionics trigger for a BCM PNT let me know.
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I am. We’ll see.
grizzlyblake
06-25-19, 09:03
Any SMEs able to weigh in on this? I've seen some posts on Instagram and such making fun of NiB as some kind of sub par way to treat parts.
I trust Sionics that they wouldn't sell junk parts but NiB seems to have a bad rap.
I'm not a high volume shooter, I use my Sionics rifle as more of a ranch rifle but I need to know if this trigger is an issue. I'd hate to swap the trigger because I really like it.
Mines up to 1900 (edit 8/29: 3470) rounds at this point, for what little thats worth concerning durability. I still like it.
Add: Total pull weight 4.25 lbs via cheap RCBS trigger pull scale.
richiecotite
06-26-19, 06:18
Nice!
I’ve got a few hundred through mine, but probably won’t shoot that lower for a while.
Please keep us updated, good or bad.
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I'm not a high volume shooter, I use my Sionics rifle as more of a ranch rifle but I need to know if this trigger is an issue. I'd hate to swap the trigger because I really like it.
How many rounds do you expect this weapon to see in its lifetime?
My notes on this trigger, 3470 rounds in:
1) I really like that it resets to the beginning of the second stage. In rapid fire, it handles like a quality single stage. I can shoot as quickly as I can get my sights on target, and a short stroke seems unlikely.
2) It feels like there is more of a weight bias on the second stage than a G SSA. This makes the wall more defined, which is both good and bad, depending on the situation. Its still a good break, either way.
3) it ignites military primers reliably.
everready73
08-29-19, 12:19
Any SMEs able to weigh in on this? I've seen some posts on Instagram and such making fun of NiB as some kind of sub par way to treat parts.
I trust Sionics that they wouldn't sell junk parts but NiB seems to have a bad rap.
I'm not a high volume shooter, I use my Sionics rifle as more of a ranch rifle but I need to know if this trigger is an issue. I'd hate to swap the trigger because I really like it.
Why not give Sionics a call with your concerns. They have been really helpful when i called in or emailed with questions
Any SMEs able to weigh in on this? I've seen some posts on Instagram and such making fun of NiB as some kind of sub par way to treat parts.
I trust Sionics that they wouldn't sell junk parts but NiB seems to have a bad rap.
I'm not a high volume shooter, I use my Sionics rifle as more of a ranch rifle but I need to know if this trigger is an issue. I'd hate to swap the trigger because I really like it.
I’m now at 3670 (edit 07-16-20 6075) live rounds and an unknown amount of dry fire on mine. I’ve ordered another.
There is a bit of a rolling break, which I like; maybe I’m weird. Its not the same as a gritty stacking creep, just a slight bit of smooth travel once you get to the second stage. Either way, I’m still liking this trigger, and its very fast for close-in work. Edit: not as fast as my Wilson “Paul Howe”
I recently got one of these, kind of by accident. I have one GI and two BCM PNT triggers plus several SD-Cs and one SD-E that has seen the most rounds. I really like this thing for the money, the two stage is very good and I am pleasantly surprised. I am however surprised at the NiB thing as well since they have several NP3 components to include a trigger.
Mine’s still ticking at almost 6,000 rounds. Shot it yesterday after a 3 month break.
Edit: moved it to a PCC
Edit 9/19/2020: 6,875.
7,075
As I get this PCC more tuned and start tightening up my splits, I find myself short stroking this trigger occasionally. Mostly with the lowest recoil loads. I’ll have to train that out. The trigger itself is still reliable and feels good.
I believe they're all just Schmid Tool's own two-stage trigger.Does this trigger differ from any of the other rebranded Schmid triggers? Do they go through an additional QC process to make purchasing through sionics (5-7 weel lead time) worth it? Or does Schmid hold tight enough tolerances that its a non issue?
Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
7,075
As I get this PCC more tuned and start tightening up my splits, I find myself short stroking this trigger occasionally. Mostly with the lowest recoil loads. I’ll have to train that out. The trigger itself is still reliable and feels good.
What's your PCC setup? I was thinking you had this trigger in a 5.56 setup.
What's your PCC setup? I was thinking you had this trigger in a 5.56 setup.
1st 6,000 were in a 5.56 gun.
I have it in a Colt mag 9mm with 8.5” barrel, Faxon bolt, tungsten bolt insert, Heavy Buffers 9-q buffer, Colt spring. Dead Air Micro Brake.
8,040. (Edit: 25 May 2021: 9,830) Still going strong. 15 Jan 2021: swapped it into a 12” 9mm with no-name bolt and a 5.5 oz buffer. 25 May: it is now a full-time suppressor host.
Full disclosure: I’ve had some failures to fire recently with ammo from a lot that is known to be bad, that basically gets kept around to induce stoppages. We’ve tried this lot in a half dozen or so guns, and no matter what weapon, about 1 in 5-10 fail to ignite. I think it is very obvious that these failures to fire were caused by bad ammo and not the trigger, but I felt that I should mention it for the sake of transparency. Any other ammo, even super shitty ammo is still getting yeeted with no issues. Most of the ammo fired in my PCC is the cheapest (brass or NAS3) ammo of its weight that I can buy or load.
10,002. Still going. I’m going to take it apart and inspect tonight.
6591665917659186591965920
Under a surface microscope, the wear surfaces still look like any other nickel boron, so I don’t think there is any chipping or whatever. This includes those spots on the hammer face that look pitted and gouged, thanks to the suppressor and no-name shitty 9mm bolt. I’m not a metallurgist, but I have shot coated triggers until the coating was worn through (my record is ~1,000 dry/blank/live cycles) as a tester, and I know what the underlying steel looks like under 100x mag. This is not the case here. I’m looking at NiB.
The current ungreased pull weight is identical to what I posted here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?220849-Dry-fire-observations-comparison&highlight= when it was new and greased. When I cleaned it last night, I used CLP and a nylon brush, so there’s probably traces of that on there, even though I wiped it off very thoroughly. I used no other solvents at any point in testing or cleaning, nor do I intend to.
** Edited - Strange issues with my posts disappearing in this thread today
So reading about the NP3 vs NiB (Nickel Boron), essentially the NiB finish that is applied to metal gets its "slickness" from many microscopic high points in the finish that create a low drag coefficient. However as that finish wears the high points down the surface area increases and the drag coefficient increases. This would mean a NiB trigger would actually get stickier and lose "slickness" as it breaks in, and that would continue to deteriorate over time. The opposite of every other normal trigger that gets better over time.
The "hydrogen embrittlement" thing basically is a symptom of the NiB treatment process that allows hydrogen to seep into the metal weakening it and allowing premature cracks and breaks that would otherwise not take place, especially in metal subject to impacts.
On paper the 10-05 2-Stage Trigger that Sionics and others sell looks kind of like a mess for those two reasons, while their "Enhanced Mil-spec Trigger" is Nickel PTFE (NP3) coated and would not have the same issues. I do not know if either of these two issues are measurable or something to worry about, although Robar says so since they are the NP3 people.
Hydrogen embrittlement is remedied by baking after plating, just like chrome plating. not sure if they do it. I think you mean, friction coefficient, not drag coefficient. Yes, I know I'm very late to the party.
EzGoingKev
10-21-22, 13:34
Is this the same trigger Centurion Arms sells here (https://centurionarms.com/triggers/centurion-arms-llc-advanced-sniper-trigger-ast-2-stage-trigger/).
Is this the same trigger Centurion Arms sells here (https://centurionarms.com/triggers/centurion-arms-llc-advanced-sniper-trigger-ast-2-stage-trigger/).
They both appear to be versions of the Schmid Tool 2-Stage Nickel Boron Plated Trigger.
FWIW, Forward Controls has the Schmid trigger at a pretty good price https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/schmid-2-stage-nib-trigger.html
Andy
EzGoingKev
10-21-22, 14:38
They both appear to be versions of the Schmid Tool 2-Stage Nickel Boron Plated Trigger.
FWIW, Forward Controls has the Schmid trigger at a pretty good price https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/schmid-2-stage-nib-trigger.html
Andy
Both Centurion's and Forward Controls triggers are made by Schmid. There has been some back and forth on the specs/pricing. Some have said they are the same as the enhanced trigger for more money and others have said no they are not.
Does anyone have any more info on these?
Under a surface microscope, the wear surfaces still look like any other nickel boron, so I don’t think there is any chipping or whatever. This includes those spots on the hammer face that look pitted and gouged, thanks to the suppressor and no-name shitty 9mm bolt. I’m not a metallurgist, but I have shot coated triggers until the coating was worn through (my record is ~1,000 dry/blank/live cycles) as a tester, and I know what the underlying steel looks like under 100x mag. This is not the case here. I’m looking at NiB.
Pictures of something with an NiB coating?
Pictures of something with an NiB coating?
Had something to say before your edit?
Had something to say before your edit?
but I have shot coated triggers until the coating was worn through (my record is ~1,000 dry/blank/live cycles) as a tester, and I know what the underlying steel looks like under 100x mag.
Waiting for the pictures of worn through coatings.
Waiting for the pictures of worn through coatings.
Of triggers I signed an NDA to test? No. Go burn through some parts on your own.
Edit for clarity: NiB is not a coating that I’ve destroyed quickly. That is not what I intended to say. The coating I destroyed in 1k cycles is one that I don’t think is on the market today, for obvious reasons.
Edit for clarity: NiB is not a coating that I’ve destroyed quickly. That is not what I intended to say. The coating I destroyed in 1k cycles is one that I don’t think is on the market today, for obvious reasons.
And why I knew you would not be providing pictures of that NiB coating that you claimed to have worn through in 1000 rounds...
And why I knew you would not be providing pictures of that NiB coating that you claimed to have worn through in 1000 rounds...
I never once claimed to have worn through NiB in 1,000 rounds.
Edit: I do see how someone could conclude that… my wording was not adequately clear.
And to be abundantly clear for the obtuse among us, my posts in this thread show that NiB is a durable trigger coating, complete with pictures and routine check-ins with round counts.
Are you still using this trigger? Were you able to overcome the short-stroking issue mentioned in post #55?
Zev/Schmid 2-stage NP3 trigger
https://www.zevtechnologies.com/core-combat-trigger
Code: ZEV23FJ25
$37.05 including shipping and taxes to NC
Zev/Schmid 2-stage NP3 trigger
$37.05 including shipping and taxes to NCWOW! Dang son, that was the deal of the summer! :D
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/schmid_jpg-2870762.JPG
Sure seems like it. I got two and didn’t want to only post the deal in Stickman’s deals thread, since the various versions of these have come up a few times.
Are you still using this trigger? Were you able to overcome the short-stroking issue mentioned in post #55?
Yes, and yes.
EzGoingKev
07-09-23, 08:58
WOW! Dang son, that was the deal of the summer! :D
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/schmid_jpg-2870762.JPG
From the pics they are using a blue hammer spring. Isn't the blue spring a reduce power spring?
From the pics they are using a blue hammer spring. Isn't the blue spring a reduce power spring?
Yes. "We've added a tuned spring kit to reduce the pull weight to ≈4 lbs while maintaining a reliable hammer strike."
The standard Schmid nickel boron 2-stage is given as 4.5 lbs.
EzGoingKev
07-09-23, 10:07
Yes. "We've added a tuned spring kit to reduce the pull weight to ≈4 lbs while maintaining a reliable hammer strike."
The standard Schmid nickel boron 2-stage is given as 4.5 lbs.
Thanks. The blue spring is actually the trigger spring and not the hammer spring. I am guessing they are using a full power hammer spring.
Sorry, you're correct. I glossed over the word "hammer."
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