View Full Version : Research: Looking for Documented cases of a Speed Reload saving a good guy.
Voodoo_Man
09-09-18, 10:14
As the title says, I am doing research for an article.
Does anyone have any videos or police reports which show that a speed reload saved a good guy during a pistol fight / DGU ?
LEO shoots and revolver involved shoots do not count, try to keep it in the last 20 or so years.
Looking for verifiable real situations, no "my buddy's brother's cousin..." type stuff.
Here is an easy one:
"Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.
Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”
He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.
At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations."
https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
AW, man. Just saw you wrote LEO shootings don't count.
I can say this: when you've been faced with someone you know can take you if you make the slightest mistake, afterward you spend a lot of time thinking about how to prevent a bad guy from getting the upper hand. Dealing with some of the angry stupid people I have, the idea of holding an empty weapon after just having fired at them and failed to neutralize is just about the worst feeling I can think of. You want out of that situation more than you want air. What that cop says about feeling alone is no ****ing joke.
Not all bad guys are the kind who run away after a gun is drawn or even fired in their direction. I've known some of them. Being drawn down on is a mortal insult to these types. They aren't quitting that engagement easily, they won't forget that you held a gun on them once if they do decide to run, and they won't show mercy if they get their hands on you or your family members.
If you aren't really good at hand-to-hand, or if you are but you're of small stature, you absolutely do not want to be holding an empty weapon that you've just emptied in a close engagement, regardless of whether or not some easy street urbanite thinks it isn't important because he can't find any references to it being important on the internet. (not directed at you Voodoo, I've had this discussion before)
Moose-Knuckle
09-10-18, 06:55
OP, have you looked into any of Jim Cirillos work?
He use to say that the fastest re-load was another gun, he was on NYPD's infamous Stakeout Squad during the 70's. So we're talking wheel guns but the man survived more gun fights than any other modern LEO that I can think of.
Voodoo_Man
09-10-18, 08:01
I can say this: when you've been faced with someone you know can take you if you make the slightest mistake, afterward you spend a lot of time thinking about how to prevent a bad guy from getting the upper hand. Dealing with some of the angry stupid people I have, the idea of holding an empty weapon after just having fired at them and failed to neutralize is just about the worst feeling I can think of. You want out of that situation more than you want air. What that cop says about feeling alone is no ****ing joke.
Not all bad guys are the kind who run away after a gun is drawn or even fired in their direction. I've known some of them. Being drawn down on is a mortal insult to these types. They aren't quitting that engagement easily, they won't forget that you held a gun on them once if they do decide to run, and they won't show mercy if they get their hands on you or your family members.
If you aren't really good at hand-to-hand, or if you are but you're of small stature, you absolutely do not want to be holding an empty weapon that you've just emptied in a close engagement, regardless of whether or not some easy street urbanite thinks it isn't important because he can't find any references to it being important on the internet. (not directed at you Voodoo, I've had this discussion before)
All that is well and fine, but it does absolutely nothing towards giving me what I asked for in the OP.
If you have the examples I asked for post them, otherwise please refrain from posting banter.
OP, have you looked into any of Jim Cirillos work?
He use to say that the fastest re-load was another gun, he was on NYPD's infamous Stakeout Squad during the 70's. So we're talking wheel guns but the man survived more gun fights than any other modern LEO that I can think of.
I have, but it's tantamount to "my brother's sisters cousin did this..." As I cannot actually validate some of the claims. Hence why I am limiting the questions to the last twenty or so years.
This is going to be very hard info to find. Documentation likely only exists in police reports or court filings. Everything else is just going to be someones word or account you won't be able to verify anyways.
Gunfights aren't often caught on video, and not often do you see everything that is going on.
If you do find what you're looking for, please post it herein.
Voodoo_Man
09-11-18, 10:49
This is going to be very hard info to find. Documentation likely only exists in police reports or court filings. Everything else is just going to be someones word or account you won't be able to verify anyways.
Gunfights aren't often caught on video, and not often do you see everything that is going on.
If you do find what you're looking for, please post it herein.
So far not one person can post a single link to a story, a video, a news article, nothing to show that a speed reload has ever been used in a gunfight in the last twenty years in a civilian non-LE capacity.
So far not one person can post a single link to a story, a video, a news article, nothing to show that a speed reload has ever been used in a gunfight in the last twenty years in a civilian non-LE capacity.
It's not surprising. From what I've gleaned and discussed with folks much more in the know than I; the speed or tactical reload is statistically non existent in real world gun fights.
Certain high speed folks don't even train it for that reason.
It makes sense in the dynamics of a real world gun fight.
When I was first told this, it didn't resonate with me, but the more I looked at real world shoots it stared to make sense.
So much stress, usually poor training/skills overall and gun fights either end quickly or people get the hell out of dodge or go to cover when they run out of ammo in their primary magazine.
Moose-Knuckle
09-11-18, 13:43
It's not surprising. From what I've gleaned and discussed with folks much more in the know than I; the speed or tactical reload is statistically non existent in real world gun fights.
That and most people nowadays who CCW carry something akin to a G19, a compact handgun that holds sixteen rounds. Most self-defense scenarios which is what we talking about here concerning CCW is only going to involve a couple of rounds being fired. I cannot think off a story off the top of my head where a civilian has been in a sustained firefight.
Voodoo_Man
09-11-18, 17:45
Most of this will never make it to the news. I have a friend that survived a gunfight with a .45ACP Commander. He suffered a stove pipe and cleared it weak hand only because he'd been gut shot and shot through his right elbow with a .44mag. He managed to return fire and mortally wound the shooter until slide lock. His wife arrived on scene while he was attempting a reload and took the revolver away from the other guy, so my friend gave up trying. Very little of this info made it to the official report which I have read. The news certainly didn't mention his ability to carry on weakside only. Every time I take a class I think of my buddy and take my one handed training very seriously.
I hope you find what you seek, but I'm not sure if the info is out there.
If you don't want to post the info you can PM me. I'll need date/time/location/police dept so I can get a redacted report or interview.
If you don't want to post the info you can PM me. I'll need date/time/location/police dept so I can get a redacted report or interview.
I just edited my post because re-reading your OP I felt it didn't fit. It happened in 1986, so quite a while ago. If you're still interested I can get the info to you.
** added on edit May of 1987, I think around the 18th, Alaska State Troopers
Voodoo_Man
09-11-18, 17:59
I just edited my post because re-reading your OP I felt it didn't fit. It happened in 1986, so quite a while ago. If you're still interested I can get the info to you.
** added on edit May of 1987.
It doesn't fit per se, but I am interested to see if I can get any sort of info on it.
If anyone has any cases like this that you can actually give me exact info on please post here or PM me, I can try to get the reports through LE channels.
Hey Brother,
You need to contact Ken Hackathorn. He has studied this kind of stuff for decades. He also knew Jim Cirillo. If you don't have his information, I can contact him and get you guys connected. PM or text me.
El Vaquero
09-12-18, 13:16
Maybe reach out to that Active Self Protection guy on YouTube. That guy has probably seen more shooting videos than anyone here. And probably has the story behind them.
We've had a few at work but I know you aren't looking for LE gunfights.
I can remember one years back where two bad guys were in a shootout. According to witnesses, during the gunfight, one of the guys stripped a mag and put one in the gun to clear a malfunction. Whether it was a new mag or the original, I don't know. That guy won that gunfight. The "victim" survived.
Voodoo_Man
09-13-18, 09:04
Hey Brother,
You need to contact Ken Hackathorn. He has studied this kind of stuff for decades. He also knew Jim Cirillo. If you don't have his information, I can contact him and get you guys connected. PM or text me.
Send me his info if you don't mind, email would probably be best.
Maybe reach out to that Active Self Protection guy on YouTube. That guy has probably seen more shooting videos than anyone here. And probably has the story behind them.
I went through a bunch of their stuff, maybe I'll send them an email. Thanks
We've had a few at work but I know you aren't looking for LE gunfights.
I can remember one years back where two bad guys were in a shootout. According to witnesses, during the gunfight, one of the guys stripped a mag and put one in the gun to clear a malfunction. Whether it was a new mag or the original, I don't know. That guy won that gunfight. The "victim" survived.
In the article I'm researching I will explain why bad guy shoots and LEO shoots do not count in this. It has a lot to do mostly with intent and training.
Voodoo_Man
09-21-18, 09:00
Sent a few emails out. No one responded so far.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.