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09-12-18, 22:49
Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not.

U.S. unemployment is down and jobs are going unfilled. But for people without much education, the real question is: Do those jobs pay enough to live on?

By Matthew DesmondSept. 11, 2018

Vanessa Solivan and her three children fled their last place in June 2015, after a young man was shot and killed around the corner. They found a floor to sleep on in Vanessa’s parents’ home on North Clinton Avenue in East Trenton. It wasn’t a safer neighborhood, but it was a known one. Vanessa took only what she could cram into her station wagon, a 2004 Chrysler Pacifica, letting the bed bugs have the rest.

At her childhood home, Vanessa began caring for her ailing father. He had been a functional crack addict for most of her life, working as a landscaper in the warmer months and collecting unemployment when business slowed down. “It was something you got used to seeing,” Vanessa said about her father’s drug habit. “My dad was a junkie, but he never left us.” Vanessa, 33, has black hair that is usually pulled into a bun and wire-framed glasses that slide down her nose; a shy smile peeks out when she feels proud of herself.

Vanessa’s father died a year after Vanessa moved in. The family erected a shrine to him in the living room, a faded, large photo of a younger man surrounded by silk flowers and slowly sinking balloons. Vanessa’s mother, Zaida, is 62 and from Puerto Rico, as was her husband. She uses a walker to get around. Her husband’s death left her with little income, and Vanessa was often broke herself. Her health failing, Zaida could take only so much of Vanessa’s children, Taliya, 17, Shamal, 14, and Tatiyana, 12. When things got too loud or one of her grandchildren gave her lip, she would ask Vanessa to take her children somewhere else.

If Vanessa had the money, or if a local nonprofit did, she would book a motel room. She liked the Red Roof Inn, which she saw as “more civilized” than many of the other motels she had stayed in. It looked like a highway motel: two stories with doors that opened to the outside. The last time the family checked in, the kids carried their homework up to the room as Vanessa followed with small grocery bags from the food pantry, passing two men sipping Modelos and apologizing for their loud music. Inside their room, Vanessa placed her insulin in the minifridge as her children chose beds, where they would sleep two to a mattress. Then she slid into a small chair, saying, “Y’all don’t know how tired Mommy is.” After a quiet moment, Vanessa reached over and rubbed Shamal’s back, telling him, “I wish we had a nice place like this.” Then her eye spotted a roach feeling its way over the stucco wall.

“Op! Not too nice,” Vanessa said, grinning. With a flick, she sent the bug flying toward Taliya, who squealed and jerked back. Laughter burst from the room.

When Vanessa couldn’t get a motel, the family spent the night in the Chrysler. The back of the station wagon held the essentials: pillows and blankets, combs and toothbrushes, extra clothes, jackets and nonperishable food. But there were also wrinkled photos of her kids. One showed Taliya at her eighth-grade graduation in a cream dress holding flowers. Another showed all three children at a quinceañera — Shamal kneeling in front, with a powder blue clip-on bow tie framing his baby face, and Tatiyana tucked in back with a deep-dimpled smile.

So that the kids wouldn’t run away out of anger or shame, Vanessa learned to park off Route 1, in crevices of the city that were so still and abandoned that no one dared crack a door until daybreak. Come morning, Vanessa would drive to her mother’s home so the kids could get ready for school and she could get ready for work.

In May, Vanessa finally secured a spot in public housing. But for almost three years, she had belonged to the “working homeless,” a now-necessary phrase in today’s low-wage/high-rent society. She is a home health aide, the same job her mother had until her knees and back gave out. Her work uniform is Betty Boop scrubs, sneakers and an ID badge that hangs on a red Bayada Home Healthcare lanyard. Vanessa works steady hours and likes her job, even the tougher bits like bathing the infirm or hoisting someone out of bed with a Hoyer lift. “I get to help people,” she said, “and be around older people and learn a lot of stuff from them.” Her rate fluctuates: She gets $10 an hour for one client, $14 for another. It doesn’t have to do with the nature of the work — “Sometimes the hardest ones can be the cheapest ones,” Vanessa said — but with reimbursement rates, which differ according to the client’s health care coverage. After juggling the kids and managing her diabetes, Vanessa is able to work 20 to 30 hours a week, which earns her around $1,200 a month. And that’s when things go well.

These days, we’re told that the American economy is strong. Unemployment is down, the Dow Jones industrial average is north of 25,000 and millions of jobs are going unfilled. But for people like Vanessa, the question is not, Can I land a job? (The answer is almost certainly, Yes, you can.) Instead the question is, What kinds of jobs are available to people without much education? By and large, the answer is: jobs that do not pay enough to live on.

In recent decades, the nation’s tremendous economic growth has not led to broad social uplift. Economists call it the “productivity-pay gap” — the fact that over the last 40 years, the economy has expanded and corporate profits have risen, but real wages have remained flat for workers without a college education. Since 1973, American productivity has increased by 77 percent, while hourly pay has grown by only 12 percent. If the federal minimum wage tracked productivity, it would be more than $20 an hour, not today’s poverty wage of $7.25.

American workers are being shut out of the profits they are helping to generate. The decline of unions is a big reason. During the 20th century, inequality in America decreased when unionization increased, but economic transformations and political attacks have crippled organized labor, emboldening corporate interests and disempowering the rank and file. This imbalanced economy explains why America’s poverty rate has remained consistent over the past several decades, even as per capita welfare spending has increased. It’s not that safety-net programs don’t help; on the contrary, they lift millions of families above the poverty line each year. But one of the most effective antipoverty solutions is a decent-paying job, and those have become scarce for people like Vanessa. Today, 41.7 million laborers — nearly a third of the American work force — earn less than $12 an hour, and almost none of their employers offer health insurance.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics defines a “working poor” person as someone below the poverty line who spent at least half the year either working or looking for employment. In 2016, there were roughly 7.6 million Americans who fell into this category. Most working poor people are over 35, while fewer than five in 100 are between the ages of 16 and 19. In other words, the working poor are not primarily teenagers bagging groceries or scooping ice cream in paper hats. They are adults — and often parents — wiping down hotel showers and toilets, taking food orders and bussing tables, eviscerating chickens at meat-processing plants, minding children at 24-hour day care centers, picking berries, emptying trash cans, stacking grocery shelves at midnight, driving taxis and Ubers, answering customer-service hotlines, smoothing hot asphalt on freeways, teaching community-college students as adjunct professors and, yes, bagging groceries and scooping ice cream in paper hats.

America prides itself on being the country of economic mobility, a place where your station in life is limited only by your ambition and grit. But changes in the labor market have shrunk the already slim odds of launching yourself from the mailroom to the boardroom. For one, the job market has bifurcated, increasing the distance between good and bad jobs. Working harder and longer will not translate into a promotion if employers pull up the ladders and offer supervisory positions exclusively to people with college degrees. Because large companies now farm out many positions to independent contractors, those who buff the floors at Microsoft or wash the sheets at the Sheraton typically are not employed by Microsoft or Sheraton, thwarting any hope of advancing within the company. Plus, working harder and longer often isn’t even an option for those at the mercy of an unpredictable schedule. Nearly 40 percent of full-time hourly workers know their work schedules just a week or less in advance. And if you give it your all in a job you can land with a high-school diploma (or less), that job might not exist for very long: Half of all new positions are eliminated within the first year. According to the labor sociologist Arne Kalleberg, permanent terminations have become “a basic component of employers’ restructuring strategies.”

Home health care has emerged as an archetypal job in this new, low-pay service economy. Demand for home health care has surged as the population has aged, but according to the latest data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the 2017 median annual income for home health aides in the United States was just $23,130. Half of these workers depend on public assistance to make ends meet. Vanessa formed a rapport with several of her clients, to whom she confided that she was homeless. One replied, “Oh, Vanessa, I wish I could do something for you.” When Vanessa told her supervisor about her situation, he asked if she wanted time off. “No!” Vanessa said. She needed the money and had been picking up fill-in shifts. The supervisor was prepared for the moment; he’d been there before. He reached into a drawer and gave her a $50 gas card to Shell and a $100 grocery card to ShopRite. Vanessa was grateful for the help. She thought Bayada was a generous and sympathetic employer, but her rate hadn’t changed much in the three years she had worked there. Vanessa earned $9,815.75 in 2015, $12,763.94 in 2016 and $10,446.81 last year.

To afford basic necessities, the federal government estimates that Vanessa’s family would need to bring in $29,420 a year. Vanessa is not even close — and she is one of the lucky ones, at least among the poor. The nation’s safety net now strongly favors the employed, with benefits like the earned-income tax credit, a once-a-year cash boost that applies only to people who work. Last year, Vanessa received a tax return of around $5,000, which included earned-income and child tax credits. They helped raise her income, but not above the poverty line. If the working poor are doing better than the nonworking poor, which is the case, it’s not so much because of their jobs per se, but because their employment status provides them access to desperately needed government help. This has caused growing inequality below the poverty line, with the working poor receiving much more social aid than the abandoned nonworking poor or the precariously employed, who are plunged into destitution.

When life feels especially grinding, Vanessa often rings up Sheri Sprouse, her best friend since middle school. “She’s like me,” Vanessa said. “She’s strong.” Sheri is a reserve of emotional support and perspective, often encouraging her friend to be patient and grateful for what she has. But Sheri herself is also just scraping by, raising two daughters on a fixed disability check. And because Sheri’s housing is subsidized through a federally administered voucher, it is also monitored. “With Section 8, you can’t have people staying with you,” Vanessa said. “So I wouldn’t want to mess that up.” When Vanessa was homeless, Sheri couldn’t offer her much else besides love.

Vanessa received some help last year, when her youngest child, Tatiyana, was approved for Supplemental Security Income because of a learning disability. Vanessa began receiving a monthly $766 disability check. But when the Mercer County Board of Social Services learned of this additional money, it sent Vanessa a letter announcing that her Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits would be reduced to $234 from $544. Food was a constant struggle, and this news didn’t help. A 2013 study by Oxfam America found that two-thirds of working poor people worry about being able to afford enough food. When Vanessa stayed at a hotel, her food options were limited to what she could heat in the microwave; when she slept in her car, the family had to settle for grab-and-go options, which tend to be more expensive. Sometimes Vanessa stopped by a bodega and ordered four chicken-and-rice dishes for $15. Sometimes her kids went to school hungry. “I just didn’t have nothing,” Vanessa told me one morning. For dinner, she planned to stop by a food pantry, hoping they still had the mac-and-cheese that Shamal liked.

In America, if you work hard, you will succeed. So those who do not succeed have not worked hard. It’s an idea found deep in the marrow of the nation. William Byrd, an 18th-century Virginia planter, wrote of poor men who were “intolerable lazy” and “Sloathful in everything but getting of Children.” Thomas Jefferson advocated confinement in poorhouses for vagabonds who “waste their time in idle and dissolute courses.” Leap into the 20th century, and there’s Barry Goldwater saying that Americans with little education exhibit “low intelligence or low ambition” and Ronald Reagan disparaging “welfare queens.” In 2004, Bill O’Reilly said of poor people: “You gotta look people in the eye and tell ’em they’re irresponsible and lazy,” and then continued, “Because that’s what poverty is, ladies and gentlemen.”

Americans often assume that the poor do not work. According to a 2016 survey conducted by the American Enterprise Institute, nearly two-thirds of respondents did not think most poor people held a steady job; in reality, that year a majority of nondisabled working-age adults were part of the labor force. Slightly over one-third of respondents in the survey believed that most welfare recipients would prefer to stay on welfare rather than earn a living. These sorts of assumptions about the poor are an American phenomenon. A 2013 study by the sociologist Ofer Sharone found that unemployed workers in the United States blame themselves, while unemployed workers in Israel blame the hiring system. When Americans see a homeless man cocooned in blankets, we often wonder how he failed. When the French see the same man, they wonder how the state failed him.

If you believe that people are poor because they are not working, then the solution is not to make work pay but to make the poor work — to force them to clock in somewhere, anywhere, and log as many hours as they can. But consider Vanessa. Her story is emblematic of a larger problem: the fact that millions of Americans work with little hope of finding security and comfort. In recent decades, America has witnessed the rise of bad jobs offering low pay, no benefits and little certainty. When it comes to poverty, a willingness to work is not the problem, and work itself is no longer the solution.

Until the late 18th century, poverty in the West was considered not only durable but desirable for economic growth. Mercantilism, the dominant economic theory of the early modern period, held that hunger incentivized work and kept wages low. Wards of public charity were jailed and required to work to eat. In the current era, politicians and their publics have continued to demand toil and sweat from the poor. In the 1980s, conservatives wanted to attach work requirements to food stamps. In the 1990s, they wanted to impose work requirements on subsidized-housing programs. Both proposals failed, but the impulse has endured.

Advocates of work requirements scored a landmark victory with welfare reform in the mid-1990s. Proposed by House Republicans, led by Speaker Newt Gingrich, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton, welfare reform affixed work requirements and time limits to cash assistance. Caseloads fell to 4.5 million in 2011 from 12.3 million in 1996. Did “welfare to work” in fact work? Was it a major success in reducing poverty and sowing prosperity? Hardly. As Kathryn Edin and Laura Lein showed in their landmark book, “Making Ends Meet,” single mothers pushed into the low-wage labor market earned more money than they did on welfare, but they also incurred more expenses, like transportation and child care, which nullified modest income gains. Most troubling, without guaranteed cash assistance for the most needy, extreme poverty in America surged. The number of Americans living on only $2 or less per person per day has more than doubled since welfare reform. Roughly three million children — which exceeds the population of Chicago — now suffer under these conditions. Most of those children live with an adult who held a job sometime during the year.

A top priority for the Trump administration is expanding work requirements for some of the nation’s biggest safety-net programs. In January, the federal government announced that it would let states require that Medicaid recipients work. A dozen states have formally applied for a federal waiver to affix work requirements to their Medicaid programs. Four have been approved. In June, Arkansas became the first to implement newly approved work requirements. If all states instated Medicaid work requirements similar to that of Arkansas, as many as four million Americans could lose their health insurance.

In April, President Trump issued an executive order mandating that federal agencies review welfare programs, from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program to housing assistance, and propose new standards. Although SNAP already has work requirements, in June the House passed a draft farm bill that would deny able-bodied adults SNAP benefits for an entire year if they did not work or engage in work-related activities (like job training) for at least 20 hours a week during a single month. Falling short a second time could get you barred for three years. The Senate’s farm bill, a bipartisan effort, removed these rules and stringent penalties, setting up a showdown with the House, whose version Trump has endorsed. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that work requirements could deny 1.2 million people a benefit that they use to eat.

Work requirements affixed to other programs make similar demands. Kentucky’s proposed Medicaid requirements are satisfied only after 80 hours of work or work-related training each month. In a low-wage labor market characterized by fluctuating hours, tenuous employment and involuntary part-time work, a large share of vulnerable workers fall short of these requirements. Nationally representative data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation show that among workers who qualify for Medicaid, almost 50 percent logged fewer than 80 hours in at least one month.

In July, the White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a report enthusiastically endorsing work requirements for the nation’s largest welfare programs. The council favored “negative incentives,” tying aid to labor-market effort, and dismissed “positive incentives,” like tax benefits for low-income workers, because the former is cheaper. The council also claimed that America’s welfare policies have brought about a “decline in self-sufficiency.”

Is that true? Researchers set out to study welfare dependency in the 1980s and 1990s, when this issue dominated public debate. They didn’t find much evidence of it. Most people started using cash welfare after a divorce or separation and didn’t stay long on the dole, even if they returned to welfare periodically. One study found that 90 percent of young women on welfare stopped relying on it within two years of starting the program, but most of them returned to welfare sometime down the road. Even at its peak, welfare did not function as a dependency trap for a majority of recipients; rather, it was something people relied on when they were between jobs or after a family crisis. A 1988 review in Science concluded that “the welfare system does not foster reliance on welfare so much as it acts as insurance against temporary misfortune.”

Today as then, the able-bodied, poor and idle adult remains a rare creature. According to the Brookings Institution, in 2016 one-third of those living in poverty were children, 11 percent were elderly and 24 percent were working-age adults (18 to 64) in the labor force, working or seeking work. The majority of working-age poor people connected to the labor market were part-time workers. Most couldn’t take on many more hours either because of caregiver responsibilities, as with Vanessa, or because their employer didn’t offer this option, rendering them involuntary part-time workers. Among the remaining working-age adults, 12 percent were out of the labor force owing to a disability (including some enrolled in federal programs that limit work), 15 percent were either students or caregivers and 3 percent were early retirees. That leaves 2 percent of poor people who did not fit into one of these categories. That is, among the poor, two in 100 are working-age adults disconnected from the labor market for unknown reasons. The nonworking poor person getting something for nothing is a lot like the cheat committing voter fraud: pariahs who loom far larger in the American imagination than in real life.

When Vanessa was not working for Bayada, she was running after her kids. Vanessa worried over Shamal the most. At more than six feet tall, his size made him both a tool and a target in the neighborhood. Smaller kids wanted him to be their enforcer or trouble-starter. Harder kids saw him as a threat. Last year, Shamal was suspended twice for fighting. As punishment, Vanessa made him shave off his prized Afro. But she also set her children’s outbursts against a larger backdrop. “How’s their behavior supposed to be when we’re out here on these streets?” she asked me in frustration. Shamal once told me that outsiders “probably think I’m selling drugs. But I’m not. I’m just a cool person that likes hanging out and making people laugh.” He wanted to become a chef. Vanessa wondered if she could get Shamal a police-issued ankle bracelet, which would track his movements. It was impossible, of course, but Shamal liked the idea. “It could help me when my friends want me to go somewhere,” he told me. That is, the bracelet would give him a good excuse to back down when his friends nudged him toward a risky path.

Shamal and Tatiyana’s father had recently moved back to Trenton, “carrying a sack like a hobo,” Vanessa remembered. Other than erratic child-support payments and a single trip to Chuck E. Cheese’s, he doesn’t play much of a role in his children’s lives. Taliya’s father went to prison when she was 1. He was released when she was 8 and was killed a few months later, shot in the chest. Sometimes Vanessa’s three kids teased one another about their fathers. “Your dad is dead,” Tatiyana would say. “Yeah? Your dad’s around, but he don’t give a crap about you,” Taliya would shoot back.

Other times, though, the siblings offered soft reassurances that their fathers’ absence wasn’t their fault. “I don’t have time for him,” Tatiyana said once, as if it were her choice. “I have time for my real friends.” Taliya looked at her baby sister and replied: “Watch. When you’re doing good, he gonna start coming around.”

If Vanessa clocked more hours, it would be difficult to keep up with all the ways she manages her family: doing the laundry, arranging dentist appointments, counseling the children about sex, studying their deep mysteries to extract their gifts and troubles. Yet our political leaders tend to refuse to view child care as work. During the early days of welfare reform, some local authorities thought up useless jobs for single mothers receiving the benefit. In one outrageous case, recipients were made to sort small plastic toys into different colors, only to have their supervisor end the day by mixing everything up, so the work could start anew the next morning. This was thought more important than keeping children safe and fed.

Caring for a sick or dying parent doesn’t count either. Vanessa spooned arroz con gandules into her ailing father’s mouth, refilled his medications and emptied his bedpan. But only when she does these things for virtual strangers, as a Bayada employee, does she “work” and therefore become worthy of concern. As Evelyn Nakano Glenn argues in her 2010 book, “Forced to Care,” industrialization caused American families to become increasingly reliant on wages, which had the effect of reducing tasks that usually fell to women (homemaking, cooking, child care) to “moral and spiritual vocations.” “In contrast to men’s paid labor,” Glenn writes, “women’s unpaid caring was simultaneously priceless and worthless — that is, not monetized.” She continues: “To add insult to injury, because they could not live up to the ideal of full-time motherhood, poor women of color were seen as deficient mothers and caregivers.”

Vanessa attributed her own academic setbacks — a good student in middle school, she began cutting class and courting trouble in high school — to the fact that her parents were checked out. At a critical juncture when Vanessa needed guidance and discipline, her father was using drugs and her mother seemed always to be at work. She didn’t want to make the same mistake with her kids. Vanessa’s life revolved around a small routine: drop the kids off at school; work; try finding an apartment that rents for less than $1,000 a month; pick the kids up; feed them; sleep. She didn’t spend her money on extras, including cigarettes and alcohol. She was trying to save “the little money that I got,” she told me, “so when we do get a place, I can get the kids washcloths and towels.”

We might think that the existence of millions of working poor Americans like Vanessa would cause us to question the notion that indolence and poverty go hand in hand. But no. While other inequality-justifying myths have withered under the force of collective rebuke, we cling to this devastatingly effective formula. Most of us lack a confident account for increasing political polarization, rising prescription drug costs, urban sprawl or any number of social ills. But ask us why the poor are poor, and we have a response quick at the ready, grasping for this palliative of explanation. We have to, or else the national shame would be too much to bear. How can a country with such a high poverty rate — higher than those in Latvia, Greece, Poland, Ireland and all other member countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development — lay claim to being the greatest on earth? Vanessa’s presence is a judgment. But rather than hold itself accountable, America reverses roles by blaming the poor for their own miseries.

Here is the blueprint. First, valorize work as the ticket out of poverty, and debase caregiving as not work. Look at a single mother without a formal job, and say she is not working; spot one working part time and demand she work more. Transform love into laziness. Next, force the poor to log more hours in a labor market that treats them as expendables. Rest assured that you can pay them little and deny them sick time and health insurance because the American taxpayer will step in, subsidizing programs like the earned-income tax credit and food stamps on which your work force will rely. Watch welfare spending increase while the poverty rate stagnates because, well, you are hoarding profits. When that happens, skirt responsibility by blaming the safety net itself. From there, politicians will invent new ways of denying families relief, like slapping unrealistic work requirements on aid for the poor.

Democrats may scoff at Republicans’ work requirements, but they have yet to challenge the dominant conception of poverty that feeds such meanspirited politics. Instead of offering a counternarrative to America’s moral trope of deservedness, liberals have generally submitted to it, perhaps even embraced it, figuring that the public will not support aid that doesn’t demand that the poor subject themselves to the low-paying jobs now available to them. Even stalwarts of the progressive movement seem to reserve economic prosperity for the full-time worker. Senator Bernie Sanders once declared, echoing a long line of Democrats who have come before and after him, “Nobody who works 40 hours a week should be living in poverty.” Sure, but what about those who work 20 or 30 hours, like Vanessa?

Because liberals have allowed conservatives to set the terms of the poverty debate, they find themselves arguing about radical solutions that imagine either a fully employed nation (like a jobs guarantee) or a postwork society (like a universal basic income). Neither plan has the faintest hope of being actually implemented nationwide anytime soon, which means neither is any good to Vanessa and millions like her. When so much attention is spent on far-off, utopian solutions, we neglect the importance of the poverty fixes we already have. Safety-net programs that help families confront food insecurity, housing unaffordability and unemployment spells lift tens of millions of people above the poverty line each year. By itself, SNAP annually pulls over eight million people out of poverty. According to a 2015 study, without federal tax benefits and transfers, the number of Americans living in deep poverty (half below the poverty threshold) would jump from 5 percent to almost 19 percent. Effective social-mobility programs should be championed, expanded and stripped of draconian work requirements.

While Washington continues to require more of vulnerable workers, it has required little from employers in the form of living wages or job security, creating a labor market in which the biggest disincentive to work is not welfare but the lousy jobs that are available. Judging from the current state of the nation’s poverty agenda, it appears that most people creating federal and state policy don’t know many people like Vanessa. “Half of the people in City Hall don’t even live in Trenton,” Vanessa once told me, flustered. “They don’t even know what goes on here.” Meanwhile, this is the richest Congress on record, with one in 13 members belonging to the top 1 percent. From such a high perch, poverty appears a smaller problem, something less gutting, and work appears a bigger solution, something more gratifying. But when we shrink the problem, the solution shrinks with it; when small solutions are applied to a huge problem, they don’t work; and when weak antipoverty initiatives don’t work, many throw up their hands and argue that we should stop tossing money at the problem altogether. Cheap solutions only cheapen the problem.

This month, I had dinner with first-year honors students at a university in Massachusetts. Some leaned right, others left. But all of them were united in their inability to explain poverty in a way that didn’t somehow hold the poor responsible for their predicament. Poor people lacked work ethic, they told me, or maybe a strong backbone or a commitment to a better life. I began to regret that alcohol hadn’t been served when one student brought up the movie “The Pursuit of Happyness,” in which Will Smith’s character performs superhumanly well at his job to leap from homelessness to affluence. The student was no senator’s son: He told us that times were lean after his parents divorced. As I watched this young man identify with Smith’s character, it dawned on me that what his parents, preachers, teachers, coaches and guidance counselors had told him for motivation — “Study hard, stick to it, dream big and you will be successful” — had been internalized as a theory of life.

We need a new language for talking about poverty. “Nobody who works should be poor,” we say. That’s not good enough. Nobody in America should be poor, period. No single mother struggling to raise children on her own; no formerly incarcerated man who has served his time; no young heroin user struggling with addiction and pain; no retired bus driver whose pension was squandered; nobody. And if we respect hard work, then we should reward it, instead of deploying this value to shame the poor and justify our unconscionable and growing inequality. “I’ve worked hard to get where I am,” you might say. Well, sure. But Vanessa has worked hard to get where she is, too.

The last paragraph is a little to socialistic for me, but the rest of this article might could give us all something to think about.

Renegade
09-12-18, 22:54
tl;dr

MountainRaven
09-12-18, 23:00
Holy wall of text, Batman!

AKDoug
09-13-18, 01:33
So, what is the answer? I cannot fathom a solution for the generationally poor. Bad decision making runs rampant and nobody seems to want to do anything about it. Kids are expensive, stop having unprotected recreational sex. Cigarettes,booze and drugs are expensive; stop doing them. Those are the simple first steps. I have no clue how to fix it and I honestly am tired of sending money via taxes to try and solve it.

AKDoug
09-13-18, 01:51
While Washington continues to require more of vulnerable workers, it has required little from employers in the form of living wages or job security, creating a labor market in which the biggest disincentive to work is not welfare but the lousy jobs that are available. Define a "lousy" job. "Lousy" jobs are the stepping stone to less "lousy" jobs.


“I’ve worked hard to get where I am,” you might say. Well, sure. But Vanessa has worked hard to get where she is, too. Yep.. and while I kept my dick out of crazy and did everything possible to not get a girl pregnant, Vanessa was a ho. That sunk her.

https://www.prageru.com/videos/black-fathers-matter

MorphCross
09-13-18, 05:01
So, what is the answer? I cannot fathom a solution for the generationally poor. Bad decision making runs rampant and nobody seems to want to do anything about it. Kids are expensive, stop having unprotected recreational sex. Cigarettes,booze and drugs are expensive; stop doing them. Those are the simple first steps. I have no clue how to fix it and I honestly am tired of sending money via taxes to try and solve it.

Mandatory Home Economics classes that teach how much children cost to have and raise as well as (unpopular this may be) mandatory sexual education classes that puts emphasis on birth control.

The next issue is getting over the fact that not everyone needs to go to college. Rather a portion go to college while another portion go to Trade schools. The portion that decides for neither will then just have to take up positions in retail, warehousing, and service work like mowing, filling potholes, digging ditches etc.

AndyLate
09-13-18, 07:04
You are allowed to summarize and provide a link, you know.

The working poor have always struggled. I was poor and had low paying jobs, I worked my way out of it.

The article (as far as I read) does reflect a mentality that has grown in the U.S. No matter what job you do, you should be able to rent a decent house, have a cell phone, internet, TV, car, buy new $100 Nike shoes for your kids, etc.

The lady in question works 30 hours a week at a low stress job with minimal special skills required. I work 50+ hours at a high stress job with a broad range of required skills. Somehow I don't feel guilty about her lot in life.

Andy

NWPilgrim
09-13-18, 07:06
I am weary of sob stories of adults working several years at near minimal wage jobs. Those jobs are meant to be entry points to the work force, not destinations. Work at whatever you can get for six months and use that experience to get something better. At all times work on improving your capabilities. My wife and a daughter both boot strapped themselves from ground zero to decent jobs in 3-4 yrs. I’ve seen numerous refugees also start from ground zero and very little English also rise to good blue collar and even office jobs in 2-4 years.

It is far more difficult with kids and crack addict parents. So making decisions in life is crucial for yourself and next generations. There is a lot of welfare assistance both public and private charity. And excuse me, but three teenage kids and none of them helping at the house or have part-time jobs?! My ten year old grandson started a yard care business last week (started with zero tools) and already has four clients on a weekly schedule making $10-$20/day.

Fact is some percentage of people will be poor no matter the assistance provided. Their existence does not mean all or most are condemned to the same fate. Assistance is meant to be TEMPORARY not a way of life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-13-18, 08:49
Since 1973, American productivity has increased by 77 percent, while hourly pay has grown by only 12 percent. If the federal minimum wage tracked productivity, it would be more than $20 an hour, not today’s poverty wage of $7.25.

That's because the efficiency isn't coming from the labor, it is from investing capital in information systems. And those gains aren't being realized in the jobs that are being dicsusses. People aren't servicing a hotel room faster, bussing a table or picking fruit faster because of IT.

My wife and I spent 22 years in 'college' getting real degrees and waited until we were in our 30s to have kids. That is what we think it would take to give our family the lifestyle we wanted. I totally understand that is not path isn't available to every one, but no education, single earner and kids equals bad outcome. That isn't a social problem, it is a math problem.

And stop importing poor people. Was it this article that said that California leads the nation in wage gap and poverty.

fledge
09-13-18, 09:11
In my experience, poverty for many stems from emotional and relational dysfunction. They don’t know how to live virtuously and wisely. They are poor at friendships that sharpen and refine. They are friends with similarly dysfunctional people. They find themselves with emotional dependencies and desires that lead to addictions of different kinds (not necessarily substance addictions). They repeat the cycles. It later translates into economics. But you cannot help people fix the cause if they don’t want it. Furthermore one of the worse problems in our society, codependency, insists on “helping” and causing the spiral to continue.

We as a society tolerate dysfunction more and more and should expect the poverty question, therefore, more nebulous to address. It’s the Elephant, not in the Room, but in the Nation State. Humans are capable of consuming everything if we are given to our own devices (and subsidized).

I think many of us, who are honest with ourselves, can relate to having to make good decisions against our impulses. The ability to do that is more vastly important than paychecks. And we find ourselves with more opportunity across the board when we do. This is why Jordon Peterson is all the rage right now for sharing basic human skills.

Those who understand this worry less about being poor. They find contentment and riches in other ways that make up the fabric of the Good Life. When we think within the categories of the System we will never find anything more meaningful than the System. The ancients wrote extensively about the good life and money was rarely mentioned.

austinN4
09-13-18, 09:59
As many of you have said in various ways, bad choices = bad outcomes. I believe that, with few exceptions such as catastrophic events, it really is that simple.
And then we ask ourselves, why, when we have avoided bad choices in our lives is it our responsibility to pay for those that do make bad choices?
I am willing to give help to someone who thru no fault of their own finds themselves in dire straights such as the current hurricane, but paying for your bad choices? I don't think so.

TMS951
09-13-18, 10:21
I didn't read that whole thing, I read enough though.

Vanessa should make more an hour than she does, but if thats market value for her services, it is what it is. I would think 18-20$ an hour would be fair.

The real problem is Vanessa's shitty family and all of their shitty decisions.

Her Dad was a crack head his whole life. This is self explanatory.

Her mom is only 62 and has health problems? Based on the fact Vanesa has diabetes, often a disease based on life style choices, I am going with Moms ailments are also life style based.

Here's the real problem with Mom, and this family. Mom can put them up, but throws them out because of Vanessa's kids. So Mom is not a help and offers little support and the kids are obviously difficult or they would not be giving grandma "lip". One kid is even 17, why is this kid not working part time to help support the family? Vanessa also only works 20-30 hours a week, a big contributing factor her low income. Why so few hours?, her kids.

Her kids, here is really her biggest issue. Kids are expensive. She is dirt poor, grew up so, and had three kids? Thats either incredibly bad decision making, or a truly irresponsible sex life.

Where is these kids father? or more likely 'fathers'. Certainly life would be much easier for Vanessa if she was married and raised these kids on two incomes for the family. Like what would life be like for vanessa with one kid and a man in her life that contributes? Probably pretty good considering where she came from.

Vanessa's life sucks. Its not because of her low hourly wage, while thats a contributing factor, Vanessa's life is a mess because her parents can't or won't help her and she has 2-3 more kids than is smart, reasonable or responsible. She additionally chose men to impregnate her that aren't there now. This is Vanessa's real problem.

If Vanessa had no dependents and shared an apartment her life would be fine. She'd also make 50-100% more money at the same job and same pay rate because she would be able to work 40 hours a week, not 20-30. The answer to generational poverty is not having more generations, or at least only adding a responsible number to it. This is where "don't breed um, if you can't feed um" comes into play.


A segment of our country thinks reproducing is something everyone is entitled to do regardless of income. They believe that the most basic and skilless job should support a single parent and multiple kids in comfort. This is the kind of thinking that will end us. Kids need to be thought of as a luxury, as something you have as a reward for success. Not as something everyone should do regardless of ability to care for those children.

Averageman
09-13-18, 11:21
The Author's Bio;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Desmond.
So when "Intellectuals" spend their entire formative years being indoctrinated they miss out on real life and Socialism (what this guy is espousing) becomes a viable alternative. The facts are he hasn't seen reality, he's seen the perfect womb for bad idea's from the inside looking out.
The facts are; distributing empathy and sympathy for a situation seems to be a lot easier than fixing a situation. He's taking the stance of an educator, perhaps his efforts might be better spent educating children not to have children?
The glide path for failure seems to be;
Use alcohol early.
Use drugs early.
academic failure.
promiscuous sex and later pregnancy.
dropping out of school.
Single unemployed Mother.
Once you're in that cycle it might take and entire lifetime to escape it.
So instead of revamping the system to go full on Socialism, why not encourage people to understand the responsibilities and rewards of Capitalism? We can burn the whole thing down, but it does nothing to cure the problems we are seeing in the story above.

soulezoo
09-13-18, 11:25
^^^^like

SomeOtherGuy
09-13-18, 11:48
The fork-tongue marxists are very good at their evil game. Socialism always results in poverty and murder.

Capitalism isn't perfect and the USA isn't really capitalistic anyway, but it's not as bad as socialism.

Welfare programs result in existing poor people getting fed and housed, which results in the creation of more poor people. And they all vote Dem. LBJ and his ilk designed it this way and it works.

I notice the complete omission of immigration, illegal or otherwise, from this essay. The USA would be more wealthy per capita if we controlled immigration.

No, I don't have a comprehensive and perfect solution, I'm just poking some of the more obvious holes in this.

I've spent a lot of time in countries that have extensive make-work job programs of various types. It's a massive expenditure of government money (your taxes) and creates lots of waste and inefficiency, but overall doesn't seem to be as socially harmful as outright welfare.

Where it gets much worse is with AI systems taking over a lot of middle-class jobs, even a few that are supposedly upper-middle-class.

26 Inf
09-13-18, 12:33
I didn't read that whole thing, I read enough though.

Vanessa should make more an hour than she does, but if thats market value for her services, it is what it is. I would think 18-20$ an hour would be fair.

The real problem is Vanessa's shitty family and all of their shitty decisions.

Her Dad was a crack head his whole life. This is self explanatory.

Her mom is only 62 and has health problems? Based on the fact Vanesa has diabetes, often a disease based on life style choices, I am going with Moms ailments are also life style based.

Thanks for taking the time to read what you did. Yes, lifestyle choices play a role.

Quite frankly the thing that makes me inclined to investigate and consider these things are my sons and daughters. If you've read my drivel as closely as Moose-Knuckle does, you'd know that I started a second family with my second wife. My sons are 18 and 23 years older than my daughters.

Both the boys have good paying jobs. Over the last several years their worry has been that their mill will be closed. IF it does, there is nothing available in this area that will pay them near what they have been getting - they would be starting over at the bottom someplace else. The oldest is just now helping his kids through college, the youngest didn't have his first kid until he was 30, and is raising his three kids as a single parent.

My daughters both intend to become nurses. That is all good and fine, but my mom was a nurse, my ex-wife is still a nurse, and I have seen the changes in the medical field. My ex prefers to work orthopedics, she is more often than not the only RN on her pod, running a crew of 6 to 8 aides. Go to your doctor's office - those folks running around in scrubs aren't nurse, they are aides, getting subtantially less than the RN's got.

All this concerns me regarding my daughters' futures because, there may not be a need for them as RN's.

This is not directed at you, TMS951, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'm not really interested in hearing stories about how everyone walked uphill to school both ways in the snow, and by God if I did it they can do it, largely because I've been there done that myself. And I'm bright enough to understand that I didn't start with any strikes against me.

Telling folks to get better jobs is a simplistic answer. As more people complete trade school and college, more folks are going to be competing for those jobs, and ultimately that will result in people working in jobs for which they are overqualified. We've already seen that.

To me the root of the problem is that corporations want wages low (duh) and there is no impetus for them to raise wages.

McDonald's currently shows dividends of of $4.04 per share annualized, in the prior 3 years McDonald's returned 10 billion a year to investors. Labor costs are less than 28% of McDonald's operating expenses.
Considering that McDonald's ran a 39.38% operating margin for 2017, they ought to be able to pay their folks a little more. But suggest that and you will quickly be informed that would be the death knoll for McDonald's. Right.

The problem is that, even though I believe in minor market regulation (go John Maynard), there is no way to control this without going full socialist - except by raising the minimum wage substantially. Which in turn would drive up prices as companies worked to maintain the same profit margin, or, theorectically, result in large scale job loss.

I don't know wtf we should do, it just struck me as sad that less than two months of our retirement income is more than Vanessa makes in a year.

RetroRevolver77
09-13-18, 12:36
deleted

Todd.K
09-13-18, 12:40
Vanessa should make more an hour than she does, but if thats market value for her services, it is what it is. I would think 18-20$ an hour would be fair.

Then we would see a sob story about how old people can't afford enough care to stay out of nursing homes. It's a low skill and no where to move up kind of job.

Moose-Knuckle
09-13-18, 12:48
So, what is the answer?

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1853/30790037938_53385f84db_z.jpg

austinN4
09-13-18, 12:52
............., it just struck me as sad that less than two months of our retirement income is more than Vanessa makes in a year.
It is sad, but she made her own bed for the most part. I am sure you could find another story of a young female black with a similar parental situation that made much better life choices and is doing very well for herself. Not saying they are the majority, but I believe they exist.

Oprah Winfrey for one: Oprah Winfrey gave birth at age 14 and lost her child.

She is one of the most successful and richest people in the world today, but Winfrey didn’t always have it so easy. She grew up in Milwaukee, Wis. and was repeatedly molested by her cousin, uncle and a family friend. She eventually ran away from home, and at age 14 gave birth to a baby boy who shortly died after.

But Winfrey’s tragic past didn’t stop her from becoming the force she is today. She excelled as an honors student in high school, and won an oratory contest which secured her a full scholarship to college. Now the entrepreneur and personality has the admiration of millions and a net worth of $2.9 billion.

Moose-Knuckle
09-13-18, 13:13
The Author's Bio;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Desmond.
So when "Intellectuals" spend their entire formative years being indoctrinated they miss out on real life and Socialism (what this guy is espousing) becomes a viable alternative. The facts are he hasn't seen reality, he's seen the perfect womb for bad idea's from the inside looking out.
The facts are; distributing empathy and sympathy for a situation seems to be a lot easier than fixing a situation. He's taking the stance of an educator, perhaps his efforts might be better spent educating children not to have children?
The glide path for failure seems to be;
Use alcohol early.
Use drugs early.
academic failure.
promiscuous sex and later pregnancy.
dropping out of school.
Single unemployed Mother.
Once you're in that cycle it might take and entire lifetime to escape it.
So instead of revamping the system to go full on Socialism, why not encourage people to understand the responsibilities and rewards of Capitalism? We can burn the whole thing down, but it does nothing to cure the problems we are seeing in the story above.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds

The_War_Wagon
09-13-18, 13:21
I stopped reading after "crack addict."

"Drug use" is not a path to 'upward mobility.'

26 Inf
09-13-18, 13:24
The Author's Bio;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Desmond.
So when "Intellectuals" spend their entire formative years being indoctrinated they miss out on real life and Socialism (what this guy is espousing) becomes a viable alternative. The facts are he hasn't seen reality, he's seen the perfect womb for bad idea's from the inside looking out.

And you know this about him how? Kind of funny, I agree with much of what he said in the article. And I guaran-fvcking-tee you my formative years weren't spent being indoctrinated into anything but the culture of chasing farm girls, then city girls, and the culture of the big block four-speed and enduro bikes.

The facts are; distributing empathy and sympathy for a situation seems to be a lot easier than fixing a situation. He's taking the stance of an educator, perhaps his efforts might be better spent educating children not to have children?
The glide path for failure seems to be;
Use alcohol early.
Use drugs early.
academic failure.
promiscuous sex and later pregnancy.
dropping out of school.
Single unemployed Mother.
Once you're in that cycle it might take and entire lifetime to escape it.
So instead of revamping the system to go full on Socialism, why not encourage people to understand the responsibilities and rewards of Capitalism? We can burn the whole thing down, but it does nothing to cure the problems we are seeing in the story above.

The last part of your post is thoughtfully phrased. I agree. We need to prevent future problems by education and involvement, but we also need to solve our current problems. So what have we done to help solve those problems. What can we do? Aside from throwing up our hands and sying 'fvck it buddy, I've got mine' and walking away?

26 Inf
09-13-18, 13:27
It is sad, but she made her own bed for the most part. I am sure you could find another story of a young female black with a similar parental situation that made much better life choices and is doing very well for herself. Not saying they are the majority, but I believe they exist.

Oprah Winfrey for one: Oprah Winfrey gave birth at age 14 and lost her child.

She is one of the most successful and richest people in the world today, but Winfrey didn’t always have it so easy. She grew up in Milwaukee, Wis. and was repeatedly molested by her cousin, uncle and a family friend. She eventually ran away from home, and at age 14 gave birth to a baby boy who shortly died after.

But Winfrey’s tragic past didn’t stop her from becoming the force she is today. She excelled as an honors student in high school, and won an oratory contest which secured her a full scholarship to college. Now the entrepreneur and personality has the admiration of millions and a net worth of $2.9 billion.

Yep, and some folks are born with an IQ and reasoning potential much higher than others. Obama grew up to be President. We hear about the successes because they are so rare, don't we?

26 Inf
09-13-18, 13:31
I stopped reading after "crack addict."

"Drug use" is not a path to 'upward mobility.'

News flash, kids don't choose their parents.

AKDoug
09-13-18, 14:05
McDonald's currently shows dividends of of $4.04 per share annualized, in the prior 3 years McDonald's returned 10 billion a year to investors. Labor costs are less than 28% of McDonald's operating expenses.
Considering that McDonald's ran a 39.38% operating margin for 2017, they ought to be able to pay their folks a little more. But suggest that and you will quickly be informed that would be the death knoll for McDonald's. Right.

McDonalds is a franchise and supply chain business. 82% of their stores are owned by franchisees and McDonald's goal is 95% and those local stores determine wages. Those labor cost numbers actually exceed those of most supply chain type businesses and are on par for restaurant businesses.

I am acquainted with a McDonald's franchisee. Our relationship started when I commented to her how excellent her staff was at a particular store I frequented.(no need for the food police, I find their Southwest chicken salad to be excellent). Over the years I have watched two of their employees work through the ranks from high school aged cashier into management. Both of these kids used money from a McDonald's corporate program to help pay for business school, the local franchisee matched those amounts. The franchisee pays them a fair wage for what they do and neither of these employees said they were looking for other work. I was informed the last time I was in there that five other employees are taking advantage of the program as well. That's just one store, and I realize all stores aren't the same.

Averageman
09-13-18, 14:19
McDonalds is a franchise and supply chain business. 82% of their stores are owned by franchisees and McDonald's goal is 95% and those local stores determine wages. Those labor cost numbers actually exceed those of most supply chain type businesses and are on par for restaurant businesses.

I am acquainted with a McDonald's franchisee. Our relationship started when I commented to her how excellent her staff was at a particular store I frequented.(no need for the food police, I find their Southwest chicken salad to be excellent). Over the years I have watched two of their employees work through the ranks from high school aged cashier into management. Both of these kids used money from a McDonald's corporate program to help pay for business school, the local franchisee matched those amounts. The franchisee pays them a fair wage for what they do and neither of these employees said they were looking for other work. I was informed the last time I was in there that five other employees are taking advantage of the program as well. That's just one store, and I realize all stores aren't the same.

I went to HS with a guy who worked at McD's. We played ball together in H.S., his Dad was my Teacher, they didn't have two nickles to rub together for the most part.
We all, (The guys we hung out with) had other jobs, but he stuck with McD's. He moved quickly up the chain and used to travel for a while training new McD's crews so we lost touch while I was in the .mil.
I believe he now owns three McD's of his own. He started off flipping burgers in a dead end job.
See how that works? You can either continue to apply the meat to the grill or you can apply yourself.

austinN4
09-13-18, 14:29
Yep, and some folks are born with an IQ and reasoning potential much higher than others. Obama grew up to be President. We hear about the successes because they are so rare, don't we?
Those 2 are at the extreme of success. There are many, many, more successes we have never heard of in the lower and upper middle class. Are you saying this lady's problems are socierty's fault?

SomeOtherGuy
09-13-18, 14:30
Tell your daughter's to get their bachelor's degrees and then if they go on to get a master's- they can go cardiologist specialized nursing or physician assistant. That's great pay right there.

From what I read and hear, being a physician today isn't all that great a deal, and tomorrow doesn't look any better. The salaries look awesome but when you consider the demands, and the 8-10 years of education + $200k or more in debt + tax rates + not having any fun for your 20's and most of your 30's, it's not so cool.

That's specific, here's general: it's impossible to know what career fields will be desirable in 10-20 years, and when the required education or training takes 5+ years and costs a fortune, you can't afford to be wrong but you have no way to guarantee success. IOW luck is a big factor.

Todd.K
09-13-18, 14:38
So what have we done to help solve those problems. What can we do?
1 Why exactly is it my problem to fix?

2 I know it's a sad story, but who the hell thinks 20-30 a week at a low skill dead end job should support a family of 4?

Adrenaline_6
09-13-18, 14:59
I guess what you are pointing out is that we all are not really created equal. I agree. It really was never meant to be that way to begin with and will never be that way. You get dealt a hand and you deal with that hand. You make the most of what you got, sometimes it isn't much at all. Decisions is what we can control, bad ones result in bad consequences whether it was intentional, uneducated, etc. You can either learn from them, pick yourself up, work your ass off and make better ones next time, or you go the other way and continue on the the same road of failure. Ultimately it falls on the individual. The successes are more rare then the failures because it is easier to give in and fail than persist and succeed. If it was that easy, and didn't require a hard work ethic it really wouldn't be a success story would it?

Obama went to a private school that is not cheap. Leaving out Hawaii Prep Academy which is in a league by itself, it (Punahou) goes back and forth for most expensive with Iolani throughout the years. It is literally a college tuition yearly. He was given the tools to succeed and he used them. Not all Punahou grads get to his success level. Should they have a complaint as well? That would be ridiculous right? Well the same applies to the lower echelon of society as well.

Unions have made their own grave at the cost of the people. If they did what they were supposed to do and protect the worker while still looking out for the company, unions would not be on the decline. They'd rather get rich themselves and sometimes make unreasonable demands which make the company non-competitive and/or protect a worker/workforce that should either be outright fired or not in that particular position that they are obviously unqualified to perform. (i.e. UAW). They have no one to blame but their corrupt selves.

Moose-Knuckle
09-13-18, 15:57
View Post
McDonalds is a franchise and supply chain business. 82% of their stores are owned by franchisees and McDonald's goal is 95% and those local stores determine wages. Those labor cost numbers actually exceed those of most supply chain type businesses and are on par for restaurant businesses.

I am acquainted with a McDonald's franchisee. Our relationship started when I commented to her how excellent her staff was at a particular store I frequented.(no need for the food police, I find their Southwest chicken salad to be excellent). Over the years I have watched two of their employees work through the ranks from high school aged cashier into management. Both of these kids used money from a McDonald's corporate program to help pay for business school, the local franchisee matched those amounts. The franchisee pays them a fair wage for what they do and neither of these employees said they were looking for other work. I was informed the last time I was in there that five other employees are taking advantage of the program as well. That's just one store, and I realize all stores aren't the same.

I went to HS with a guy who worked at McD's. We played ball together in H.S., his Dad was my Teacher, they didn't have two nickles to rub together for the most part.
We all, (The guys we hung out with) had other jobs, but he stuck with McD's. He moved quickly up the chain and used to travel for a while training new McD's crews so we lost touch while I was in the .mil.
I believe he now owns three McD's of his own. He started off flipping burgers in a dead end job.
See how that works? You can either continue to apply the meat to the grill or you can apply yourself.

I know a guy who's first job was at Chic-Fil-A in high school, fry cook/cashier/mopped floors/etc. He had his college paid for through an employee program of theirs, he now owns his own Chic-Fil-A franchise and makes bank. But none of this fits the agenda so . . .

TAZ
09-13-18, 16:26
Kind of fell asleep somewhere when we blamed the loss of unions for the piss poor choices of people.

My parents were pretty much poor when we moved here. They gave up everything to move us to the states. Decent paying job for my dad and mom could stay at home to raise us. They both worked menial jobs to make ends meet. Mom became a burger flipper, dad a machinist then coach. They understood that the ONLY way to break that cycle was through education. In all honesty it’s not rocket surgery. If you have 2 working brain cells the writing is on the wall. Export of labor = only education based jobs available. Same as don’t stick your dick in the running blender chopping up ice. Not a hard concept to comprehend.

The 1% aren’t sneaking about at night tearing up schools and stealing kids souls. Kids in those neighborhoods have access to schools and teachers and $$ for scholarships. They CHOOSE to not use them. So not much sympathy there.

I have sympathy for mistakes, cause God knows I’ve made enough. But repeated mistakes I have zero tolerance for. People living in poverty and needing assistance to feed themselves have no business making babies. Those IMO should be removed immediately and placed into foster care. Better chance there than with a known dumbass who can’t make decisions.

Everyone fails to understand economics. When we raise minimum wage the cost of living goes up. You will NEVER get to the point that your average McDonnalds burger flipper will make enough. What you will have instead is more people who can’t afford stuff. The 1% will always be safe. The middle class will be further decimated. The poor will still be poor or even possibly unemployed. Go Ben the choice of making my now inflated other expenses am I going to go to McDonnalds??? If nobody is eating the burgers why do we need burger flippers??

The government doesn’t need more safety net programs. They need to incentivize jobs coming back to the USA.

People need to invest in education required to make a living. Doesn’t have to be college. May trade schools out there capable of giving you tools to succeed. Parents need to parent instead of being friends.

AKDoug
09-13-18, 17:00
When I was younger, most of the jobs and promotions I got were from other people not showing up or doing drugs..

Shit being stolen at the trucking company I worked at, warehouse gets drug tested and entire crew fired. Wham... Dougie is the night warehouse manager because I showed up and I didn't do drugs.

Two guys get fired from a Federal contract Davis Bacon job for marijuana use, bam Dougie gets a promotion because Dougie don't do drugs and the gap needs filled immediately.

Dougie needs a second job because he didn't budget for failed birth control and second baby within 11 months of the first.. local auto repair shop fired two guys for not showing up. Dougie turns wrenches at night to make ends meet and is never late for two years.

Now, as a boss I value people that show up on time, work hard, and don't abuse drugs and alcohol. I can teach people how to do a job, I can't teach them to be responsible good people.

flenna
09-13-18, 17:15
When I was younger, most of the jobs and promotions I got were from other people not showing up or doing drugs..

Shit being stolen at the trucking company I worked at, warehouse gets drug tested and entire crew fired. Wham... Dougie is the night warehouse manager because I showed up and I didn't do drugs.

Two guys get fired from a Federal contract Davis Bacon job for marijuana use, bam Dougie gets a promotion because Dougie don't do drugs and the gap needs filled immediately.

Dougie needs a second job because he didn't budget for failed birth control and second baby within 11 months of the first.. local auto repair shop fired two guys for not showing up. Dougie turns wrenches at night to make ends meet and is never late for two years.

Now, as a boss I value people that show up on time, work hard, and don't abuse drugs and alcohol. I can teach people how to do a job, I can't teach them to be responsible good people.

Good post. I have never fired an employee. Every single one I have let go fired themselves.

scooter22
09-13-18, 17:19
Deleted.

26 Inf
09-13-18, 18:16
I went to HS with a guy who worked at McD's. We played ball together in H.S., his Dad was my Teacher, they didn't have two nickles to rub together for the most part.
We all, (The guys we hung out with) had other jobs, but he stuck with McD's. He moved quickly up the chain and used to travel for a while training new McD's crews so we lost touch while I was in the .mil.
I believe he now owns three McD's of his own. He started off flipping burgers in a dead end job.
See how that works? You can either continue to apply the meat to the grill or you can apply yourself.

Do you think there are enough opportunities like that in our society to sustain everyone who has the 'merit' (if you would) to achieve such success?

Everyone likes a pulled myself up by my bootstraps story, but is that a valid narrative to run a society on?

26 Inf
09-13-18, 18:36
Are you saying this lady's problems are socierty's fault?

Not really.

One problem I see is that folks look at articles such as the one I posted and immediately focus on the person rather than the issues the article raises.

Bottom line for me is that wages in unskilled and semi-skilled jobs have been stagnant for over a decade. As many of the corporations that compromise our economy sloughed off jobs through offshoring or automation, their profits rose.

When we opened trade with China, it effectively recapitalized many American corporations, cheaper labor, cheaper materials, etc. Most of that money went right into the pockets of investors, rather than lowering prices or increasing wages. Same with locating businesses into Mexico, etc.

I get that, it is the profit motive, but we have continued down that path to the point that a large number of working Americans are struggling to earn subsistence wages.

I don't know what the answer is, I know we have a problem, though.

Personally, I'm fine. But I worry about my kids, my grand kids, and my yet to be born great grand kids. AS well as the folks I see daily that just ain't making it.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-13-18, 18:46
I stopped reading after "crack addict."

"Drug use" is not a path to 'upward mobility.'

A higher path, if you will...


Do you think there are enough opportunities like that in our society to sustain everyone who has the 'merit' (if you would) to achieve such success?

Everyone likes a pulled myself up by my bootstraps story, but is that a valid narrative to run a society on?

That is a valid point, but overlooks the real issue is that people work and add value. If we can’t use the bootstrap model as a guide, then we can’t use the self-induced tail-spin model as a guide either. The reality is that you have to add value and then you have to get paid for it. That means you have to have a skill people want that provides an output and then you have to have the balls to ask to get paid or leave. People want to fill a role and get paid. That is nice and safe. That isn’t how you run an company that can drive a market and enable an economy to grow at 3-5%. That’s what you need to make sure there is enough spoils for everyone.

It’s funny how everyone wants socialism, but at the root of it, it is being told what to do and what you get. I guess some dumbasses think that they can take enough from others to make out better. The problem is Thatcher’s Law of running out of other people’s money.

AKDoug
09-13-18, 18:54
Good post. I have never fired an employee. Every single one I have let go fired themselves.

The only person we've actually said "you're fired" to in 20 years was caught drinking on the job. I'm proud of the fact that I am on amicable terms with every single person that used to work for me, even the lady we fired for drinking. Substance abuse hasn't been a big issue for us. We have a lot of entry level jobs and we are used as a stepping stone many times. I'm o.k. with that.


Do you think there are enough opportunities like that in our society to sustain everyone who has the 'merit' (if you would) to achieve such success?

Everyone likes a pulled myself up by my bootstraps story, but is that a valid narrative to run a society on?

I'd like to think there are opportunities out there. Our country would have negative population growth if it wasn't for immigration. That means there should be job openings as people retire or age out of their profession. Certain industries are screaming for employees. You just have to go find them. It sure is easier when you don't saddle yourself with family issues and kids.

What I worry about is the unabated hatred of corporations and their profits. Since so much of older America has their retirement tied up in investments in these corporations, it would be disastrous if more socialist programs came into being that limited those profits.

Averageman
09-13-18, 19:30
And you know this about him how? Kind of funny, I agree with much of what he said in the article. And I guaran-fvcking-tee you my formative years weren't spent being indoctrinated into anything but the culture of chasing farm girls, then city girls, and the culture of the big block four-speed and enduro bikes.

Because his Bio is full of academic credits without listing a single viable job, just some volunteer work he did to work on affordable housing.
If I had a Bio it would likely start with birth, parents names, a list of blue collar jobs,then military service, military awards, academic achievements, white collar jobs and volunteer work related to my Church and a list my Spouse and Child's name.
I'm did my fair share of chasing kitty and riding motorcycles and had a bad case of Mustang GT fever for a while, but one thing I learned, it took a bit of money to do all that with the good ones. Working made that kind of money for me.

NWPilgrim
09-13-18, 20:36
Do you think there are enough opportunities like that in our society to sustain everyone who has the 'merit' (if you would) to achieve such success?

Everyone likes a pulled myself up by my bootstraps story, but is that a valid narrative to run a society on?

Absolutely!! Work is about producing value and being compensated. If you actually provide more value than you consume then you get ahead. If everyone produced more value than they and their family consume there would be no poor. Of course that means making sacrifices, being disciplined and also applying yourself to be more capable.

Boot strap stories are exactly the example to hold up. By poo-pooing them you throw out the very means of self improvement. If someone is not willing to boot strap themselves than no amount of assistance will ever improve their lives long term. Opportunities do not fall out of the sky. You have to prepare for opportunities for when they happen along and sometimes create an opportunity.

Someone earning low wage after several years in the work force means they have learned zero, are no more physically capable than when they started, and are no more reliable than the average know nothing applying for their first job. How can that possibly be?! Six months or working diligently and showing up every day on time puts you ahead of 70% of unknown first time applicants.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Business_Casual
09-14-18, 05:32
I read the article as a plea for universal basic income. In other words, communism.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-14-18, 07:00
I read the article as a plea for universal basic income. In other words, communism.

UBI is actually lazy communism. It is the idea that things are so unbalanced and some people are so efficient that others are not only entitled to a living, but that they don't have to work at all. It is like doubling down on communism.

Maybe that is a good thing. It will fail even faster.

I think the story of Jamestown colony is a great example of people who think that they don't have to work anymore, and ending up paying for it with their lives.

Averageman
09-14-18, 09:24
UBI is actually lazy communism. It is the idea that things are so unbalanced and some people are so efficient that others are not only entitled to a living, but that they don't have to work at all. It is like doubling down on communism.

Maybe that is a good thing. It will fail even faster.


You know, we keep dodging this bullet every two years now. Someone proposes a Socialist model for something, be it Obama-Care or UBI, Oddly enough the tempo for this is increasing every decade and the demands become even more eccentric.
I think you could hold this up as an example for the failure of Johnson's "Great Society" and Numerous programs going all the way back to FDR.
The Progressive Socialist Party formerly known as the Democratic Party cannot see the failures of these programs and adjust from there, they continue to choose to double down on failure.
It's like seeing someone in Las Vegas sitting at a Black Jack table who has no idea about how to play Black Jack or the odds of winning or losing on any one hand. They just keep betting more and more in a manner that would put a drunken Sailor to shame. They keep betting against Human Nature and if you ask them, it would appear on the surface that they have the best of motives, but the secret is they gain more control of these people with every hand-out.
I don't know if the quote that has been attributed to POTUS Johnson concerning Black Voters is correct, but that's pretty telling as to motives. Between FDR and Johnson they moved the dial pretty significantly shifting 14-17% of Voters over just a couple of decades from Red to Blue and they did it with your dollars in the name of hand-outs. Now the Blue Team doesn't even have to try to get those votes anymore, they can be counted on without any effort.
With Trillions of dollars being spent, our tax dollars btw, shouldn't this poverty and inequity be a thing of the past?
You can feel empathy for this Woman and her kids, just don't apply sympathy in the name of my tax dollars to fix a system that has never worked. Life simply isn't fair, someone is going to have bad parenting, no amount of money is going to fix that.
Human nature is always going to produce what is essentially useless weeds as well as productive fruit and grain.

Business_Casual
09-14-18, 17:15
A socialist poses next to a worker while wearing $3,500 in designer clothes:


Ocasio-Cortez wore a $1990 Gabriela Hearst blazer, $890 Gabriela Hearst pants and $625 Monolo Blahnik shoes.

https://www.infowars.com/socialist-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-wears-3500-outfit-for-photo-op-with-construction-workers/

Admit it, though. You’d hit that.

Moose-Knuckle
09-14-18, 17:17
When I was younger, most of the jobs and promotions I got were from other people not showing up or doing drugs..

Shit being stolen at the trucking company I worked at, warehouse gets drug tested and entire crew fired. Wham... Dougie is the night warehouse manager because I showed up and I didn't do drugs.

Two guys get fired from a Federal contract Davis Bacon job for marijuana use, bam Dougie gets a promotion because Dougie don't do drugs and the gap needs filled immediately.

Dougie needs a second job because he didn't budget for failed birth control and second baby within 11 months of the first.. local auto repair shop fired two guys for not showing up. Dougie turns wrenches at night to make ends meet and is never late for two years.

Now, as a boss I value people that show up on time, work hard, and don't abuse drugs and alcohol. I can teach people how to do a job, I can't teach them to be responsible good people.

But, but, but . . . that's just your White Privilege. :jester:





Everyone likes a pulled myself up by my bootstraps story, but is that a valid narrative to run a society on?

I'm afraid to ask what people like you think a "valid narrative to run a society on" is exactly . . . YIKES! :fie:

flenna
09-14-18, 17:19
A socialist poses next to a worker while wearing $3,500 in designer clothes:



https://www.infowars.com/socialist-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-wears-3500-outfit-for-photo-op-with-construction-workers/

Admit it, though. You’d hit that.

That's the goal of the Socialist- the ruling class gets richer and the working class gets poorer. Amazing how, considering how much history shows this fact, that we have so many mindless idiots in this country supporting socialism.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-14-18, 17:48
A socialist poses next to a worker while wearing $3,500 in designer clothes:



https://www.infowars.com/socialist-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-wears-3500-outfit-for-photo-op-with-construction-workers/

Admit it, though. You’d hit that.

In the head to see if it fixed her eyes.


But, but, but . . . that's just your White Privilege. :jester:






I'm afraid to ask what people like you think a "valid narrative to run a society on" is exactly . . . YIKES! :fie:

Frankly, we are to the point where if someone brings up my white privilege I'd like to just tell them yes, and I'm pulling that card out and going to have you slapped around for questioning my power and authority. If it doesn't happen, that means that there is no white privilege- or not any worth having.

26 Inf
09-14-18, 20:18
I'm afraid to ask what people like you think a "valid narrative to run a society on" is exactly . . . YIKES! :fie:

I don't think there is anyone else like me.

To me, a valid narrative on what to run a society on is that we help one another whenever we can without undue hardship.

My narrative is universal conscription, work for subsidy - unless disabled, and prisons that punish first them rehabilitate. Capital cases where DNA is proved - appeal as often as you want during the 5 years until your sentence is executed, for other cases 7 years then good bye. Only one appeal can be filed at a time, any appeal being heard when time elapses will be heard before the sentence is carried out.

My narrative includes the minimum wage linked to the price increase of products between 1991 (current federal minimum) and the current price of goods: 1991 Kellogg Cornflakes - 18oz - 2.19; 2014 - Kellogg Cornflakes - 18oz - 4.19. Looks like under my narrative the minimum wage would be $13.87. (Be thankful I wouldn't link it to Campbell's Tomato Soup.)

My narrative doesn't believe in specialty tags for veterans. Since I believe the default should be service, non-vets would be required to have a tag with a little taco/canoe shaped object on it. Why should a vet pay, in my state, $45.00 to buy a tag proclaiming they did something which should be expected?

My narrative would require a heavily patrolled border wall in order to prevent any illegal visitors. Until the wall is built, my narrative includes immediate jail without bond until after the preliminary hearing for the owner of a business or the board of directors of any corporation knowingly employing undocumented illegal immigrants. My narrative requires illegal immigrants to become documented within a six month period, after that immediate expulsion. Then a period of time for them to become citizens. If they commit any person misdemeanor, or ANY felony during this period they would immediately be deported. Not a citizen after the time period - deported. We would have to figure out how many there actually are before we could set a timeline.

My narrative on taxes is not yet firmly established. However it would include elimination of estate taxes which hamper the passage of businesses or wealth from one generation to another. The problem is that those tax dollars would have to come from someplace else, maybe a slight tax increase for the upper 60 percentile.

Life would be good under my narrative.

(P.S. you can PM me if you need me to explain what the canoe/taco on the plate represents)

Seriously, that is pretty much it - well I wouldn't really do the plates.

Business_Casual
09-14-18, 20:54
I don't think there is anyone else like me.

To me, a valid narrative on what to run a society on is that we help one another whenever we can without undue hardship.

My narrative is universal conscription, work for subsidy - unless disabled, and prisons that punish first them rehabilitate. Capital cases where DNA is proved - appeal as often as you want during the 5 years until your sentence is executed, for other cases 7 years then good bye. Only one appeal can be filed at a time, any appeal being heard when time elapses will be heard before the sentence is carried out.

My narrative includes the minimum wage linked to the price increase of products between 1991 (current federal minimum) and the current price of goods: 1991 Kellogg Cornflakes - 18oz - 2.19; 2014 - Kellogg Cornflakes - 18oz - 4.19. Looks like under my narrative the minimum wage would be $13.87. (Be thankful I wouldn't link it to Campbell's Tomato Soup.)

My narrative doesn't believe in specialty tags for veterans. Since I believe the default should be service, non-vets would be required to have a tag with a little taco/canoe shaped object on it. Why should a vet pay, in my state, $45.00 to buy a tag proclaiming they did something which should be expected?

My narrative would require a heavily patrolled border wall in order to prevent any illegal visitors. Until the wall is built, my narrative includes immediate jail without bond until after the preliminary hearing for the owner of a business or the board of directors of any corporation knowingly employing undocumented illegal immigrants. My narrative requires illegal immigrants to become documented within a six month period, after that immediate expulsion. Then a period of time for them to become citizens. If they commit any person misdemeanor, or ANY felony during this period they would immediately be deported. Not a citizen after the time period - deported. We would have to figure out how many there actually are before we could set a timeline.

My narrative on taxes is not yet firmly established. However it would include elimination of estate taxes which hamper the passage of businesses or wealth from one generation to another. The problem is that those tax dollars would have to come from someplace else, maybe a slight tax increase for the upper 60 percentile.

Life would be good under my narrative.

(P.S. you can PM me if you need me to explain what the canoe/taco on the plate represents)

Seriously, that is pretty much it - well I wouldn't really do the plates.


I’m curious if you’ve read “Starship Troopers” or “The Forever War” or, simply voted for 43.

AndyLate
09-15-18, 09:35
I think it would be reasonable to tie minimum wage increases to COLA the way social security and military retirement is. It is ridiculous that minimum wage hasn't changed for 9 years, but the idea of basically doubling it to $15.00 is a pipe dream.

Andy

MegademiC
09-15-18, 09:46
Opportunity exists

It took me 6 months to fill 2 $20/hr jobs with great benefits and good bonuses, because people didnt show up, pass the testing (high school math and basic reasoning skills), etc.


I think we will soon see companies need to start raising wages to attract qualified people. I know Ive discussed with HR. Capitalism at work.

Oh, we also lost a few guys to fighting, and drugs. When being under the influences is a higher priority than being employed, life is going to be rough.

Moose-Knuckle
09-15-18, 12:03
My narrative is universal conscription, work for subsidy - unless disabled . . .

Sparta and the Third Reich also believed in universal conscription, they enacted homogeneous ways of dealing with the disabled as well.




Since I believe the default should be service, non-vets would be required to have a tag with a little taco/canoe shaped object on it.

So if "non-vets" are vaginas what symbol would vets who served in non-combat MOS's in non-combat theaters and or only served in peace time have assigned to them under your regime? We have Purple Heart plates now so I wonder if you would make such distinctions among your non-taco symbolized citizens.




Life would be good under my narrative.

Said every autocrat in recorded history.

Averageman
09-15-18, 13:56
So if "non-vets" are vaginas what symbol would vets who served in non-combat MOS's in non-combat theaters and or only served in peace time have assigned to them under your regime? We have Purple Heart plates now so I wonder if you would make such distinctions among your non-taco symbolized citizens.
Honestly, I have no desire to see the Draft return to our Nation. I think a lot of other things need to happen in order for us to increase our Nation's Defense capabilities. Dragging someone in who doesn't want to serve, or hasn't the physical, morale or mental strength to be there would only further increase the drag we are seeing now that has been caused by letting people in who shouldn't be there or cannot perform. The day to day drama that goes on in the orderly room is bad enough with Volunteer's.
I think once you take off the uniform, you should be able to take advantage of your Service benefits, but you should be realistic and also understand once you're service is complete or you have retired, you're now playing the game from a totally different set of rules.
They wrote the rules, not a bunch of Veterans. You might have a lot of things to offer a workplace, but you'll also have to learn to adapt.
I really don't want a licence plate indicating that I have served, I wouldn't use it for the same reason I wont put a NRA sticker on my Truck.

flenna
09-15-18, 14:12
Opportunity exists

It took me 6 months to fill 2 $20/hr jobs with great benefits and good bonuses, because people didnt show up, pass the testing (high school math and basic reasoning skills), etc. .

In today’s job market the opportunities are there. We start people at $14/hr with absolutely no experience. All they need to do is show up and work. Yet it’s like a revolving door because showing up and doing what you are told is too much or 10 hours overtime is too hard.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-15-18, 15:00
I don't think there is anyone else like me.

To me, a valid narrative on what to run a society on is that we help one another whenever we can without undue hardship.

My narrative is universal conscription, work for subsidy - unless disabled, and prisons that punish first them rehabilitate. Capital cases where DNA is proved - appeal as often as you want during the 5 years until your sentence is executed, for other cases 7 years then good bye. Only one appeal can be filed at a time, any appeal being heard when time elapses will be heard before the sentence is carried out.



Life would be good under my narrative.

(P.S. you can PM me if you need me to explain what the canoe/taco on the plate represents)

Seriously, that is pretty much it - well I wouldn't really do the plates.

Dude, that is pretty much Facism. Not trying to denigrate it in the Third Reich kind of sense, but after reading it, I don't remember one individual liberty mentioned.


To me, a valid narrative on what to run a society on is that we help one another whenever we can without undue hardship.

Enviable and not a bad act, but not how to run a society. The primary valid narrative is take care of your self and your family obligations. IF we took care of ourselves and our own, we wouldn't need to take care of the village nearly as much.

On the vet thing, there is the guy that shot Bin Laden in the face, and then everyone else is ordinated at different relative level of bitchness. How about teachers? OK, they don't get shot (usually) as much as the MIL, but what about LEO's. More probably are killed every year than MIL. Or FBI agents, what about CIA officers?

Or we could just be individuals that are responsible for ourselves firstly and mainly, to our families in particular, and to work together generally to make our communities better. You know this probably better than I do, helping other people is a hoot. Frankly I do it almost for the selfish reason that it makes me feel better leaving someone better off than before I interacted with them.

Mandate that? That kind of ruins it.

The under and unemployable are a real issue. Jordan Peterson has a lot of material on research about how a portion of the population is just to dumb to be useful- and are actually detrimental to use for tasks. But too many people try to fit into that fraction.

duece71
09-15-18, 21:34
Honestly, I have no desire to see the Draft return to our Nation. I think a lot of other things need to happen in order for us to increase our Nation's Defense capabilities. Dragging someone in who doesn't want to serve, or hasn't the physical, morale or mental strength to be there would only further increase the drag we are seeing now that has been caused by letting people in who shouldn't be there or cannot perform. The day to day drama that goes on in the orderly room is bad enough with Volunteer's.
I think once you take off the uniform, you should be able to take advantage of your Service benefits, but you should be realistic and also understand once you're service is complete or you have retired, you're now playing the game from a totally different set of rules.
They wrote the rules, not a bunch of Veterans. You might have a lot of things to offer a workplace, but you'll also have to learn to adapt.
I really don't want a licence plate indicating that I have served, I wouldn't use it for the same reason I wont put a NRA sticker on my Truck.

How about a very limited Nuclear exchange followed by a decade long conventional war with either China or Russia? Or both? OR......what we have right now (war on terror) increased 5 fold and brought to our nations shores? Either of those 2 choices and you would be needing extras.....at some point.

Averageman
09-15-18, 21:57
How about a very limited Nuclear exchange followed by a decade long conventional war with either China or Russia? Or both? OR......what we have right now (war on terror) increased 5 fold and brought to our nations shores? Either of those 2 choices and you would be needing extras.....at some point.
At that point I would imagine the social pressure to conform and go kick butt would be a bit different than today's social norms.
Nothing like a glowing coast line to give us a patriotic reset
A bigger problem would be the number of fat bodies we have in our draft age males.

duece71
09-15-18, 22:03
At that point I would imagine the social pressure to conform and go kick butt would be a bit different than today's social norms.
Nothing like a glowing coast line to give us a patriotic reset
A bigger problem would be the number of fat bodies we have in our draft age males.

Fat bodies turn lean real fast when starvation settles in. A homeland USA invasion or war brought to us....yes, people would be motivated when conformity and re-education camps are the only alternative. Live free as always.

26 Inf
09-15-18, 23:32
I’m curious if you’ve read “Starship Troopers” or “The Forever War” or, simply voted for 43.

As a matter of fact I've read Starship Troopers and saw the movie. But that happened well after I formed my opinions, and I realize it was a novel not a template for our society. You might also note that I didn't tie voting into service in the Starships.

I did not vote for President G.W. Bush, ever. Those two elections I voted a write in - myself.

I think President Bush is someone I would enjoy hanging with and having BBQ and Iced Tea, but the fact remains that he and President Trump have one thing in common - they are draft dodgers.

Sorry, not a cookie cutter boy like so many around this neck of the woods.

Averageman
09-15-18, 23:35
No, not really.
Weak links suck in training. They drag the group down and fail physically dragging everyone down with them.

26 Inf
09-15-18, 23:55
I love you man, in a non-Navy way, of course


Sparta and the Third Reich also believed in universal conscription, they enacted homogeneous ways of dealing with the disabled as well.

Scroll through this and you can find a list of all the countries with mandatory universal service, some for both males and females. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service

Under my narrative if you are disabled you have the safety net in place.

So if "non-vets" are vaginas what symbol would vets who served in non-combat MOS's in non-combat theaters and or only served in peace time have assigned to them under your regime? We have Purple Heart plates now so I wonder if you would make such distinctions among your non-taco symbolized citizens.

See, that's what you don't understand. It's not about being in combat, or what MOS, it is about suborning yourself for the greater good. It is about supporting America. BTW, I did that to get a rise out of you. My narrative Purple Heart, POW, War Zone Veteran tags would be free for those that want them.

Said every autocrat in recorded history.

I prefer to think of myself a friend to all. If that doesn't work I'd go for enlightened despot.

26 Inf
09-16-18, 00:21
Dude, that is pretty much Facism. Not trying to denigrate it in the Third Reich kind of sense, but after reading it, I don't remember one individual liberty mentioned.

Thanks for the response. Other than a two year service obligation of some sort (military, public works, public health, etc.) what liberties did I mention eliminating?

Enviable and not a bad act, but not how to run a society. The primary valid narrative is take care of your self and your family obligations. IF we took care of ourselves and our own, we wouldn't need to take care of the village nearly as much.

Agree in concept. Notice I said without undue hardship. I tithe, give to charities and random needs, my target is 10%, don't always get there, sometimes over. That being said, I'm not selling my Harley or the Mustang I have stored, but if I have extra I give it, after I take care of me and mine.

On the vet thing, there is the guy that shot Bin Laden in the face, and then everyone else is ordinated at different relative level of bitchness. How about teachers? OK, they don't get shot (usually) as much as the MIL, but what about LEO's. More probably are killed every year than MIL. Or FBI agents, what about CIA officers?

Got to be honest, the vet thing was to get a rise out of Moose.

Or we could just be individuals that are responsible for ourselves firstly and mainly, to our families in particular, and to work together generally to make our communities better. You know this probably better than I do, helping other people is a hoot. Frankly I do it almost for the selfish reason that it makes me feel better leaving someone better off than before I interacted with them.

Mandate that? That kind of ruins it.

If you are talking about universal service, think of it as teaching the concept.

The under and unemployable are a real issue. Jordan Peterson has a lot of material on research about how a portion of the population is just to dumb to be useful- and are actually detrimental to use for tasks. But too many people try to fit into that fraction.

This is a problem. So yesterday my wife and I stopped in at a conveinence store for my Diet Pepsi fix. Painting you a picture - outside front of the store there is a display of cases of bottled water to the left of the door. About 3 feet to the left of the water display is the trashcan/ashtray, two to three feet to the left of that is the ice freezer. As we walked into the store a young man, 20ish, walked along the sidewalk in front of the store and sat down between the ice freezer and the trashcan/ashtray. I kind of thought, 'wow. I wouldn't want to sit there next to that stinky old thing' and went into the store. When we exited I saw that the guy was sitting there trying to light a stub cigarette and had several laying next to where he was sitting. Pretty sure they came from the ashtray.

I pointed it out to my wife as we getting ready to leave and said, 'how do you help that?'

No one's life ambition is to sit going through ashtrays for dog ends, what's the answer, I'll be darned if I know.

THCDDM4
09-16-18, 09:46
This is a problem. So yesterday my wife and I stopped in at a conveinence store for my Diet Pepsi fix. Painting you a picture - outside front of the store there is a display of cases of bottled water to the left of the door. About 3 feet to the left of the water display is the trashcan/ashtray, two to three feet to the left of that is the ice freezer. As we walked into the store a young man, 20ish, walked along the sidewalk in front of the store and sat down between the ice freezer and the trashcan/ashtray. I kind of thought, 'wow. I wouldn't want to sit there next to that stinky old thing' and went into the store. When we exited I saw that the guy was sitting there trying to light a stub cigarette and had several laying next to where he was sitting. Pretty sure they came from the ashtray.

I pointed it out to my wife as we getting ready to leave and said, 'how do you help that?'

No one's life ambition is to sit going through ashtrays for dog ends, what's the answer, I'll be darned if I know.

I'm going to answer your "how do you help that" question- you simply can't help those who won't help themselves.

There is no cure for poverty. It will always exist in civilized society. Those in poverty would be dead in a true dog eat dog world of survival without the curtain of society/civilization to protect them.

It's a hard and sad fact of life/human nature.

I have always done a great deal of community service and donated money, labor and services to help whenever the opportunity for me to do something arises. I won't ever stop either. But that doesn't change the reality surrounding our very nature and genetics.

I've given help to many people in many forms and they could've made a real change and lifted themselves out of their position if they just took my hand and accepted my offer to help lift them up. Very few actually make a long term change and realize the growth necessary to change their situation from negative to positive in my personal experience.

The ones who did accept the help and made positive changes have turned their lives around, they did it themselves, I was merely a catalyst, an ear to talk to, a source of motivation and advice and a helping hand.

Just as the universe has negative and positive forces that require one another to exist, we must have both benevolence and malevolence, rich and poor, etc.

It's just the reality of our existence. Don't stop helping people, but don't be fooled that everyone wants dramatic change and few have the courage and will put forth the effort necessary for such change.

I've been a firm believer in assisting my fellow man all my life. What the individuals do with that help is not in my control.

So, no "jobs" are not the solution to poverty, because there is NO realistic way to solve that problem. We can only do our best to help and hope those we help decide to solve the problem themselves, as only they can.

Moose-Knuckle
09-16-18, 10:09
I love you man, in a non-Navy way, of course


Scroll through this and you can find a list of all the countries with mandatory universal service, some for both males and females. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service

Under my narrative if you are disabled you have the safety net in place.


See, that's what you don't understand. It's not about being in combat, or what MOS, it is about suborning yourself for the greater good. It is about supporting America. BTW, I did that to get a rise out of you. My narrative Purple Heart, POW, War Zone Veteran tags would be free for those that want them.

I prefer to think of myself a friend to all. If that doesn't work I'd go for enlightened despot.

Yeah, you didn't "get a rise" out of me. Merely a response which is how discussion and discussion forums work.

And no I do understand, but people like you who use one's prior service as to some how win an argument choose to ignore the fact that some sacrifice much more than others. Even those who have never "served". So there are those out there that would look down their noses at folks like you in accordance with the point you were attempting to make.

But I still fail to see how someone who VOLUNTEERS for military service helps the poor and disadvantaged.

26 Inf
09-16-18, 13:59
I'm going to answer your "how do you help that" question- you simply can't help those who won't help themselves.

There is no cure for poverty. It will always exist in civilized society.

That is a Biblical truth, IDK if you have a faith, but I do and I believe that the poor will always exist if for nothing other than for us to show God's love by helping them.

I have always done a great deal of community service and donated money, labor and services to help whenever the opportunity for me to do something arises. I won't ever stop either. But that doesn't change the reality surrounding our very nature and genetics........

I've been a firm believer in assisting my fellow man all my life. What the individuals do with that help is not in my control.

So, no "jobs" are not the solution to poverty, because there is NO realistic way to solve that problem. We can only do our best to help and hope those we help decide to solve the problem themselves, as only they can.

That was a very thoughtful, and insightful post, thanks!

26 Inf
09-16-18, 14:17
And no I do understand, but people like you who use one's prior service as to some how win an argument choose to ignore the fact that some sacrifice much more than others. Even those who have never "served". So there are those out there that would look down their noses at folks like you in accordance with the point you were attempting to make.


Well, seeing how I feel, it would have been kind of two-faced not to have served, wouldn't it? I formed that opinion when I was a teenager, I'm pretty sure before your were born. One of the reasons that I decided to go into the service after high school was because neither my father or his father had served. I think it is part and parcel of membership in American society.

By the same token, my belief is that you are probably taking the stance you are because you chose a different path, although, of course, I don't know for sure, just as you don't know for sure why I hold the beliefs I hold.


But I still fail to see how someone who VOLUNTEERS for military service helps the poor and disadvantaged.

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, but my idea of universal service is not limited to the military. I've thought a great deal about this over the years, and I know this would cost our society a lot, but I truly believe the benefits to upcoming generations would make it worthwhile.

ABNAK
09-16-18, 15:04
As a matter of fact I've read Starship Troopers and saw the movie. But that happened well after I formed my opinions, and I realize it was a novel not a template for our society. You might also note that I didn't tie voting into service in the Starships.

I did not vote for President G.W. Bush, ever. Those two elections I voted a write in - myself.

I think President Bush is someone I would enjoy hanging with and having BBQ and Iced Tea, but the fact remains that he and President Trump have one thing in common - they are draft dodgers.

Sorry, not a cookie cutter boy like so many around this neck of the woods.

Oh God help us all! :rolleyes:








:cool:

26 Inf
09-16-18, 16:28
Oh God help us all! :rolleyes:

:cool:

I was positioning myself as another Ross Perot, albeit much poorer. Maybe that is why my campaign failed to take off.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-16-18, 18:29
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, but my idea of universal service is not limited to the military. I've thought a great deal about this over the years, and I know this would cost our society a lot, but I truly believe the benefits to upcoming generations would make it worthwhile.

Two years of 'service' will make the slackers think that entitles to them a lifetime of benefits.

I don't think people will take away the lessons you think they will. I think it will be more of a Lord of Flies type experience.

26 Inf
09-16-18, 23:08
I think it will be more of a Lord of Flies type experience.

Been a long, long, long time since I read that, long enough that I don't have recall any but general details. Please help me out and explain why you feel that way.

The idea isn't that we just take young adults, group them together and turn them loose on a mission with no training or supervision.

sundance435
09-17-18, 15:38
Thanks for taking the time to read what you did. Yes, lifestyle choices play a role.

This is not directed at you, TMS951, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I'm not really interested in hearing stories about how everyone walked uphill to school both ways in the snow, and by God if I did it they can do it, largely because I've been there done that myself. And I'm bright enough to understand that I didn't start with any strikes against me.

Telling folks to get better jobs is a simplistic answer. As more people complete trade school and college, more folks are going to be competing for those jobs, and ultimately that will result in people working in jobs for which they are overqualified. We've already seen that.

To me the root of the problem is that corporations want wages low (duh) and there is no impetus for them to raise wages.

McDonald's currently shows dividends of of $4.04 per share annualized, in the prior 3 years McDonald's returned 10 billion a year to investors. Labor costs are less than 28% of McDonald's operating expenses.
Considering that McDonald's ran a 39.38% operating margin for 2017, they ought to be able to pay their folks a little more. But suggest that and you will quickly be informed that would be the death knoll for McDonald's. Right.

The problem is that, even though I believe in minor market regulation (go John Maynard), there is no way to control this without going full socialist - except by raising the minimum wage substantially. Which in turn would drive up prices as companies worked to maintain the same profit margin, or, theorectically, result in large scale job loss.

I don't know wtf we should do, it just struck me as sad that less than two months of our retirement income is more than Vanessa makes in a year.

I agree with many of the sentiments in this thread, even though some are conflicting. There's a well-documented shortage of skilled or semi-skilled workers for trades jobs. I think the decades-long drumbeat of the necessity of a 4-year degree is partly to blame for that. Another major factor, as goofy as it might sound, is addiction. Employers everywhere can't find employees who can pass a drug test. Those people then end up working low wage, short-term jobs to make enough to feed their habit. It's a pretty sad commentary that the biggest qualifier for decent wage jobs is NOT using narcotics, yet many people can't meet that requirement - no degree required, just don't do drugs. Many folks also need to come to the realization that the $30+/hr manufacturing jobs are long gone, never to be replaced. $13-15/hr is the new normal and the only force that can change that is either the market or artificial tampering by the government.

It's also a shame that we subsidize and encourage companies to pay lower wages by filling the gap with subsidies to the poor. There's no excuse for that, but, again, I don't know how you fix that without some real human misery in the interim.

All of that said, the elephant in the room is really people having kids that shouldn't. No one will ever address that, since it's apparently a God-given right to procreate without any thought of doing it responsibly. That, along with other poor life decisions (especially by their parents) seems to be the only thing I ever find in common among these stories.

Edited to add: I also started with no strikes against me and good parents, so I don't really know what it's like for these kinds of people. I just know that what we're doing isn't working for anyone.

26 Inf
09-17-18, 15:46
It's also a shame that we subsidize and encourage companies to pay lower wages by filling the gap with subsidies to the poor. There's no excuse for that, but, again, I don't know how you fix that without some real human misery in the interim.

Oh snap, I got flamed for mentioning that we subsidize companies paying low wages.

Whiskey_Bravo
09-17-18, 16:07
I agree with many of the sentiments in this thread, even though some are conflicting. There's a well-documented shortage of skilled or semi-skilled workers for trades jobs. I think the decades-long drumbeat of the necessity of a 4-year degree is partly to blame for that. Another major factor, as goofy as it might sound, is addiction. Employers everywhere can't find employees who can pass a drug test. Those people then end up working low wage, short-term jobs to make enough to feed their habit. It's a pretty sad commentary that the biggest qualifier for decent wage jobs is NOT using narcotics, yet many people can't meet that requirement - no degree required, just don't do drugs. Many folks also need to come to the realization that the $30+/hr manufacturing jobs are long gone, never to be replaced. $13-15/hr is the new normal and the only force that can change that is either the market or artificial tampering by the government.

It's also a shame that we subsidize and encourage companies to pay lower wages by filling the gap with subsidies to the poor. There's no excuse for that, but, again, I don't know how you fix that without some real human misery in the interim.

All of that said, the elephant in the room is really people having kids that shouldn't. No one will ever address that, since it's apparently a God-given right to procreate without any thought of doing it responsibly. That, along with other poor life decisions (especially by their parents) seems to be the only thing I ever find in common among these stories.

Edited to add: I also started with no strikes against me and good parents, so I don't really know what it's like for these kinds of people. I just know that what we're doing isn't working for anyone.



$30 an hour manufacturing jobs may be gone but you can make that as a HVAC service tech if you learn the trade, show up, and don't do drugs. There is a huge shortage in techs in the HVAC industry. Some companies have resorted to not only paying a decent salary but also hiring bonuses, paying for all training, etc.

The problem like you said is way to many can't seem to pass a piss test or they don't want to actually work.

Todd.K
09-17-18, 16:50
Oh snap, I got flamed for mentioning that we subsidize companies paying low wages.

Because it's a feel good talking point, ungrounded in reality. The value of everything is exactly what you can get for it right now, and that includes your labor.

If we didn't subsidize the poor so much, they would have to work more than 20-30 hrs a week, and would have more motivation to find a better job or put in enough effort to move up at a current job.

Moose-Knuckle
09-17-18, 17:47
Well, seeing how I feel, it would have been kind of two-faced not to have served, wouldn't it? I formed that opinion when I was a teenager, I'm pretty sure before your were born. One of the reasons that I decided to go into the service after high school was because neither my father or his father had served. I think it is part and parcel of membership in American society.

So you just troll about military service in a thread about the poor and downtrodden. Mmkay. Well my grandfather and four of his six brothers did serve for the duration of WWII and my father enlisted for Vietnam prior to the draft. When they and my uncles (who are Vets) heard I was talking to a recruiter my senior year they all about shit kittens and gave me a talking to.




By the same token, my belief is that you are probably taking the stance you are because you chose a different path, although, of course, I don't know for sure, just as you don't know for sure why I hold the beliefs I hold.

All I know for sure is that you posted some leftist academic's flapdoodle in a thread entitled "Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not".




I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear, but my idea of universal service is not limited to the military. I've thought a great deal about this over the years, and I know this would cost our society a lot, but I truly believe the benefits to upcoming generations would make it worthwhile.

Karl Marx wrote a book about that.

sgtrock82
09-17-18, 17:56
Well if you cant find good, punctual, clean pissing employees to fill job vacancies perhaps your not offering enough to attract the better help.

Funny how the advice tendered to the lower folk is "if you want it bad enough, youll to work for it, or go without" but when its the Business that "want" something, good employees in this case, that these employees just dutifully appear at the price the Business wants.

Well if you cant find them in your price range youll have to pay more. However if you cant afford more then youll have to tighten the belt and work a little harder till you can, just like the little guy does. Capitalism in action.

Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk

MegademiC
09-17-18, 18:06
Well if you cant find good, punctual, clean pissing employees to fill job vacancies perhaps your not offering enough to attract the better help.

Funny how the advice tendered to the lower folk is "if you want it bad enough, youll to work for it, or go without" but when its the Business that "want" something, good employees in this case, that these employees just dutifully appear at the price the Business wants.

Well if you cant find them in your price range youll have to pay more. However if you cant afford more then youll have to tighten the belt and work a little harder till you can, just like the little guy does. Capitalism in action.

Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk

The point is artificial raising of wages due to unemployment... if they didnt have any income, they would be more likely to not do drugs... but being that its reality, you are correct, which is why we are discussing that exact thing... however for small businesses, they will go under and people complain there are no jobs... that was part of the 8 years before last year.

Honestly, we dont even drug test, its just showing up for an interview and passing HS math.

RetroRevolver77
09-17-18, 18:31
deleted

AndyLate
09-17-18, 18:56
But I still fail to see how someone who VOLUNTEERS for military service helps the poor and disadvantaged.

In two ways:

The first is by setting an example. I served with a lot of guys from "the wrong side of the tracks" and when the younger folks from the neighborhood see them living well when they return on leave, it shows them there is a better life than having kids, stealing, selling drugs and smoking weed.

The second way is simpler yet - if no one volunteered, we would have conscription. We will always have a standing army. The poor always suck hind title when it comes to a draft.

Andy

26 Inf
09-17-18, 19:42
So you just troll about military service in a thread about the poor and downtrodden. Mmkay.

Well. if you recall, you were the one who inspired me to tell my narrative for society, so I don't get the troll - I have always felt that universal service would make our society stronger.

Well my grandfather and four of his six brothers did serve for the duration of WWII and my father enlisted for Vietnam prior to the draft. When they and my uncles (who are Vets) heard I was talking to a recruiter my senior year they all about shit kittens and gave me a talking to.

Sounds like your family did better than mine, I helped ours catch up, both my sons joined. Be grateful that they had the experience in the service that helped them understand it wouldn't be a good fit for you.

MountainRaven
09-17-18, 20:07
So you just troll about military service in a thread about the poor and downtrodden. Mmkay. Well my grandfather and four of his six brothers did serve for the duration of WWII and my father enlisted for Vietnam prior to the draft. When they and my uncles (who are Vets) heard I was talking to a recruiter my senior year they all about shit kittens and gave me a talking to.

Just an FYI: The draft that ended in 1973 began in 1940 and did not end in 1945 or 1953. So your father did not enlist prior to the draft, he enlisted prior to being drafted or otherwise simply volunteered (plenty of men - and women volunteered for service during the Vietnam War without the imminent threat of being drafted hanging over them. The draft was intended to ensure that the military would have the manpower Congress and the President deigned it to need in the event that there were an insufficient number of volunteers enlisting).

sundance435
09-18-18, 08:22
Karl Marx wrote a book about that.

No, he didn't. Karl Marx despised peasants and would've classified many of the people we're talking about as the "dangerous class". Not sure how he'd feel about universal service, but I'm guessing he wouldn't be a fan.

The movie "Lions for Lambs" is generally garbage, but I always thought the two college guys who do their presentation on some kind of service program (and then enlist) was an interesting concept/plot device, but it's lost in the political messaging garbage.

Moose-Knuckle
09-18-18, 19:37
The first is by setting an example. I served with a lot of guys from "the wrong side of the tracks" and when the younger folks from the neighborhood see them living well when they return on leave, it shows them there is a better life than having kids, stealing, selling drugs and smoking weed.


There are folks who enlist when they are of age to escape poverty, check out Mykel Hawke's story sometime. Others like my wife's grandfather join up simply to be fed. He was homeless from an early age, mother died when he was young and had a very abusive alcoholic father. Lied about his age and the Navy in WWII was all to eager to have him. Lot of stories form then of underage boys lying to get in so they could get three hots and a cot.





Sounds like your family did better than mine, I helped ours catch up, both my sons joined. Be grateful that they had the experience in the service that helped them understand it wouldn't be a good fit for you.

Didn't realize there was a contest. First ancestor of mine who served fought in the French and Indian War, then again in the War of Independence. Not so much a fit for me as they wanted me to have different opportunities. And several of them did encourage me to join the USAF, I was talking with an Army recruiter. I had an ex GF who's father was a Marine then a lifer in the AF, he even jumped my ass for looking at Army and told me if he had it to do again he would have gone USCG. Had a supervisor of mine who was former Army tell me the same thing.





Just an FYI: The draft that ended in 1973 began in 1940 and did not end in 1945 or 1953. So your father did not enlist prior to the draft, he enlisted prior to being drafted or otherwise simply volunteered (plenty of men - and women volunteered for service during the Vietnam War without the imminent threat of being drafted hanging over them. The draft was intended to ensure that the military would have the manpower Congress and the President deigned it to need in the event that there were an insufficient number of volunteers enlisting).

Just an FYI: the Selective Service conducted a lottery to determine the order of call to military service in December of 1969. That is what people are referring to when talking about the draft for the Vietnam War.





No, he didn't. Karl Marx despised peasants and would've classified many of the people we're talking about as the "dangerous class". Not sure how he'd feel about universal service, but I'm guessing he wouldn't be a fan.

The movie "Lions for Lambs" is generally garbage, but I always thought the two college guys who do their presentation on some kind of service program (and then enlist) was an interesting concept/plot device, but it's lost in the political messaging garbage.

Did I say Karl Marx?! Oops, I meant Charles Dickens.

MountainRaven
09-18-18, 23:56
Just an FYI: the Selective Service conducted a lottery to determine the order of call to military service in December of 1969. That is what people are referring to when talking about the draft for the Vietnam War.

Yes, that's how the draft works.

Moose-Knuckle
09-19-18, 15:59
Yes, that's how the draft works.

In hindsight to save you from semantics perhaps I should have worded my post differently by saying that my father enlisted before the Selective Service lottery held in December '69.

MountainRaven
09-19-18, 17:19
In hindsight to save you from semantics perhaps I should have worded my post differently by saying that my father enlisted before the Selective Service lottery held in December '69.

Roger that.

:)