View Full Version : What is the fascination with a LPVO on an AR?
You know, the Nightforces, the Razors, etc. I can see it on a dedicated long-range gun but on an M4-ish platform? Isn't there already the ACOG?
My personal favorite reticle is the EOTech, but given the DoD shenanigans from a few years back, the shifting POI (my biggest grievance), and the battery life I have adorned my AR's with Aimpoint T-1's or T-2's. Two ACOGs also.
Look, not throwing stones, genuinely want to know the interest in the LPVO. I have never shot a weapon with one on it, and a more "traditional" looking optic than a RDS just asks to be bumped out of zero (thinking of a hunting rifle and if it's bumped/dropped you're SOL on the zero). They are also large and I suspect heavier than a RDS or even an ACOG.
My biggest fear? This thread will cause me to spend $$$. :rolleyes:
I was a bit skeptical but decided to give it a try since my astigmatism gives me a squiggly line instead of a dot with Aimpoints. Im sold on them.
Note... Im basing this off of a Steiner P4Xi as that's what Ive been using on my work rifle.
On 1 power it's almost as fast as an Aimpoint. The eye box is very forgiving and I havent had issues with getting a good sight picture even running it on barricades, through ports, and under vehicles. The increased magnification helps on everything past about 30 yards. From 30-75ish yards I keep the scope on 2-2.5 power. Eye box is still very forgiving and the slight magnification gives me a little finer aiming point. At 100 yards and above the 4 power works really well, just like an ACOG.
Durability depends on the quality of the optic. Just like cheap red dots don't hold up the same as an Aimpoint. My Steiner hasn't lost zero riding around in the back of my patrol vehicle for about a year now. Its gone through 20+ hours of training which included barricade work, vehicle work, and running and gunning.
You have to try it for yourself. ACOG is a quality optic but it’s fixed magnification. Also consider the crosshairs reticle combined with a red dot in the middle. As an eotech shooter I wasn’t sure. But then I tried it. I’m thinking of dumping Eotech entirely and going LPVO.
I took my P4xi out to the range and burned down some up close stuff hen walked back to distance and was making shots standing that I might have had to go at least kneeling to hit.
You know, the Nightforces, the Razors, etc. I can see it on a dedicated long-range gun but on an M4-ish platform? Isn't there already the ACOG?
My personal favorite reticle is the EOTech, but given the DoD shenanigans from a few years back, the shifting POI (my biggest grievance), and the battery life I have adorned my AR's with Aimpoint T-1's or T-2's. Two ACOGs also.
Look, not throwing stones, genuinely want to know the interest in the LPVO. I have never shot a weapon with one on it, and a more "traditional" looking optic than a RDS just asks to be bumped out of zero (thinking of a hunting rifle and if it's bumped/dropped you're SOL on the zero). They are also large and I suspect heavier than a RDS or even an ACOG.
My biggest fear? This thread will cause me to spend $$$. :rolleyes:
I have a vx-r patrol 1.25-4.
Is it as robust as an aimpoint or acog, probably not.
At 1.25x i have a fast sight. Almost rds fast. I can also zoom in for hunting (which is more likely than HD) or target ID.
Past that I dont know. If you have the money, khales looks good, but a lot of the “reasonable” options (vortex 1-6) are pigs. I need to get hands on, but on paper, you can have a 2.5-10 and rds for the same weight. 1-4 is good, 1-6 I cant justify the weight, but again- based on specs only.
A vortex 1-6 is 24oz. My optic is half that.
For lpvo
Good up close eye box
Good long range clarity/reticle
Light weight
Cost
Pick 2, maybe 3 depending on optic.
Best thing to do is define your situation and let people offer advice.
vicious_cb
09-20-18, 21:39
You know, the Nightforces, the Razors, etc. I can see it on a dedicated long-range gun but on an M4-ish platform? Isn't there already the ACOG?
My personal favorite reticle is the EOTech, but given the DoD shenanigans from a few years back, the shifting POI (my biggest grievance), and the battery life I have adorned my AR's with Aimpoint T-1's or T-2's. Two ACOGs also.
Look, not throwing stones, genuinely want to know the interest in the LPVO. I have never shot a weapon with one on it, and a more "traditional" looking optic than a RDS just asks to be bumped out of zero (thinking of a hunting rifle and if it's bumped/dropped you're SOL on the zero). They are also large and I suspect heavier than a RDS or even an ACOG.
My biggest fear? This thread will cause me to spend $$$. :rolleyes:
Fixed power optics like the ACOG are obsolescent. Good LPVOs give you 90-95% the capability of a RDS while giving you better a magnified sight picture than an ACOG.
LPVO = a slightly less forgiving RDS + low magnification scope
Fixed power optics like the ACOG are obsolescent.
Not sure if I agree with this.
LPVO, as much as I love them, are still nowhere near as durable as an ACOG.
This has mostly been said but I also was very hesitant to try the LPVO game, it seemed like a lot of money, lot of extra weight, and little gain. I tried a magnified on my buddies rifle and downright hated it. I purchased a Steiner p4xi as a budget way of seeing if this would be for me and it was a huge change. Now let me say that my Steiner broke relatively early into my testing with it, approximately 400 rounds, which is a thread and a complaint all its own but it did what I needed it to do which was confirm this would work for me and work well. So much so that I have a Razor-E arriving here on Monday. My optic now costs as much as my base AR did but its well worth it and I plan on buying at least one if not two more LPVOs for my other rifles.
The advantages are that with the quality LPVOs you get the advantages of running an Aimpoint with a bright center dot in daylight bright, super quick and easy to pick up. You get the advantages of being able to magnify at intervals instead of the Elcan type of going straight to 1 or 6. You have the ability to still use the etched reticle if the batteries die on you without issue. This allows you to be fast up close and fast at distance while maintaining the ability to be very accurate at distance, especially if braced or prone, it also allows you to be able to PID if you aren't just using your rifle for target shooting.
The negatives are as before weight and price for quality. Your Strike Eagles and the like are your Holosuns of the LPVO world. Steiner P4xi is really the only "cheap" option and its cheap because it gives up some durability, which I have observed first hand. The weight while kind of a pain also helps maintain recoil I've noticed. The other negative is shorter battery life. If you plan on leaving it on everyday all day for months without touching it then you're going to find a dead dot when you go to grab it. Also, due to the weight and if you run a high mount which is also my by far new preference for optics of any kind the weight can make running a barricade or odd positions a little more difficult but still not impossible.
If you are on the fence grab a P4xi and give it a try. If you don't like it they maintain enough interest you can flip it very easily after you are done, but give it a couple hundred rounds of going between up/downs, close to far, etc to wring out the concept for you. I doubt you will be disappointed.
Depends on what you want to shoot at.
For around the house HD type AR, I don't think an Aimpoint can be beat. For a 3 gun/ranch rifle an LPV brings a lot of capability.
They have the same appeal as a red dot with a flip magnifier. In fact, the first that I used had a lever that gave you the choice of 1x or 4x, with nothing between, just like a flip magnifier.
The P4Xi has a very friendly BDC, much like the ACOG. The hashmarks get narrower with range, so the same hashmark you use for range estimation is also the one you aim with. And if the dot dies, perhaps because the battery is done, you still have a reticle.
RDS are still top dog for close range work. They are lighter and not a jack of all trades. Another option is an ACOG with a mini red dot on top, or an offset RDS.
vicious_cb
09-21-18, 00:17
Not sure if I agree with this.
LPVO, as much as I love them, are still nowhere near as durable as an ACOG.
ACOGs have pretty much been phased out in the SOF community.
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/img_2661.jpg
Not sure if I agree with this.
LPVO, as much as I love them, are still nowhere near as durable as an ACOG.
I'd say they well surpass it.
I’ve had LPVOs and I keep returning to EXPS3-0 and T-1s with a G33 in my gear to attach when needed.
LPVOs are great too, but they’re heavier and turn a handy/quick rifle to sluggish.
Both have their place and I buy both.
It’s a pretty simple logic...you combine the fast sighting properties of a 1x system with the longer range capabilities of a 4-6x system as opposed to only having one or the orther with something like a red dot or an ACOG.
This. I'd also add that the reticle options on the LPVO's are better than on ACOG's and the ability to be at 2,3, 2.75x whatever helps too.
It’s a pretty simple logic...you combine the fast sighting properties of a 1x system with the longer range capabilities of a 4-6x system as opposed to only having one or the orther with something like a red dot or an ACOG.
Also give this article a read
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/06/gunfighter-moment-kyle-defoor-11/
Also give this article a read
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/06/gunfighter-moment-kyle-defoor-11/
/threadjack/
Other than the specific scope Defoor references there, do any other manufacturers have a combo FFP reticle/SFP red dot? Seems like an outstanding idea to me.
Also give this article a read
http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/06/gunfighter-moment-kyle-defoor-11/
/threadjack/
Other than the specific scope Defoor references there, do any other manufacturers have a combo FFP reticle/SFP red dot? Seems like an outstanding idea to me.
/threadjack/
Other than the specific scope Defoor references there, do any other manufacturers have a combo FFP reticle/SFP red dot? Seems like an outstanding idea to me.
I think S&B has (or had announced) a low power PM-II like that.
redpillregret
09-21-18, 08:29
I don’t think there is a “fascination”. I’ve been using them since 2006. They fill a role many need filled. My decisions to use them for the majority of my shooting include astigmatism, being able to shoot targets at extended ranges, and the ability to make ballistic compensations. Meanwhile, it maintains a more forgiving eye box than an ACOG as well as having the ability to be fired on 1x when the need arises.
While a RDS is lighter, the LPVO is lighter and easier to operate than a RDS with a magnifier. Additionally, it’s a more precise sighting system. It requires one mount as opposed to two, and it is a single cost.
Compared to the ACOG, as mentioned before, it is more forgiving and more flexible.
Downsides are weight when compared to an ACOG or RDS w/o magnifier.
For a gun used primarily indoors, I use, and will continue to use, a RDS. For guns that do everything, they will get a variable. I’ve managed shots from point blank to 700 yards with my 14.5” carbine equipped with a Razor.
On dual focal plane: anytime you intended to use the reticle, you will be on 6x with the Razor. Below 6x, the FFP scopes’ reticles are difficult to use. I believe US Optics made a dual focal plane and it didn’t work out as well as intended. I could see it being an advantage if you were using a busy reticle and perhaps had a top end in the 8x or greater range....but right now the juice isn’t worth the squeeze especially with a simple reticle like the Razor HD.
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I can see that LPVOs definitely add capability to a general purpose carbine (hunting, gaming, target shooting). They also add weight and cost compared to a quality affordable RDS like an AP Pro or MRO.
I don't think they are superior for an urban police officer or home defense. With the exception of SWAT, police officers don't engage at 300 yards and God help the home defender who pops a criminal at that range.
Andy
You know, the Nightforces, the Razors, etc. I can see it on a dedicated long-range gun but on an M4-ish platform? Isn't there already the ACOG?
My personal favorite reticle is the EOTech, but given the DoD shenanigans from a few years back, the shifting POI (my biggest grievance), and the battery life I have adorned my AR's with Aimpoint T-1's or T-2's. Two ACOGs also.
Look, not throwing stones, genuinely want to know the interest in the LPVO. I have never shot a weapon with one on it, and a more "traditional" looking optic than a RDS just asks to be bumped out of zero (thinking of a hunting rifle and if it's bumped/dropped you're SOL on the zero). They are also large and I suspect heavier than a RDS or even an ACOG.
My biggest fear? This thread will cause me to spend $$$. :rolleyes:
My "fascination" came as a result of ballistics testing. I had 35 acres in the woods, and I would line up milk jugs full of water, as they gave similar results in my experience to soft skin game (deer) regarding recovered .224 dia projectiles at 5.56 carbine velocity.
At 25 and 50 and 75 yards even, this was fine, but once I stretched it to 100+ yards, I began "wounding" a lot of milk jug "stacks", losing bullets, and in general having a frustrating time. It was then that I began to understand the value of even 3x magnification. I put a g33 behind my t2, and began centering those jugs.
Now, I know you may not be hunting milk jugs, but that's not the point, the point is that at a mere 100 yards, cleanly hitting COM a 7" or so wide target of contrasting color was difficult for me from the standing, braced against a tree, even with 20/10 vision. Magnification made it a piece of cake.
From that g33/t2 onward, I went as far down the rabbit hole as I could trying to have my 1x cake as well as to eat my 100+ yard precision as I could, in as streamlined a form factor as possible.
Currently, I'm awaiting the purchase of an NX8. I will get similar size and weight to a t2 in a scalarworks backed by a g33...along with an etched reticle, drop and wind holds, and another nearly 5x magnification.
Voodoo_Man
09-21-18, 09:04
A while back I wrote up an article on this topic, specifit PID (positive identification) which is a very real world consideration.
http://www.vdmsr.com/2016/06/optics-reticles-pid-vs-distance.html
I'd rather have the ability to PID and make shots at distance instead of waiting until I can PID via non-magnifcation and have a closer engagement distance.
Nocalsocal
09-21-18, 09:52
Does anyone have any long term use with the Leupold Patrol 1.25x4? Although I've had mine for a year or so and quite honestly, I haven't had the funds/time to really to really wring it out.
Just wanted to know if there is anything I should look out for.
I LOVE the clarity and weight. And its daylight bright firedot with auto on. Don't really care for the exposed dials and the minimum 1.25 magnification. But I wanted something to get my foot in the door of LPVO and will work with my astigmatism.
I know its older design. Just looking for someone with any experience regarding its durability.
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Nocalsocal
09-21-18, 10:07
Great read. I've been debating on keeping my Leupold Patrol on my AR pistol and the article is swaying me keep it on there. Thanks for the work!
A while back I wrote up an article on this topic, specifit PID (positive identification) which is a very real world consideration.
http://www.vdmsr.com/2016/06/optics-reticles-pid-vs-distance.html
I'd rather have the ability to PID and make shots at distance instead of waiting until I can PID via non-magnifcation and have a closer engagement distance.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Doc Safari
09-21-18, 10:14
I need convincing too.
Full disclosure: I had been bitten by the LPVO bug for a time, too. I developed glaucoma and now the eye that I was using for shooting can't see well enough to use an LPVO. Since I had to switch to the other eye, I just don't seem to be able to line things up properly and quickly enough to make it a viable optic for anything but slow precise long-range shots.
I much prefer a red dot or reflex sight now.
I went to the range with my Leupold one day using my one good eye, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Point being: it's going to require lots of ammo and practice for me to use a LPVO now. I took to the Meprolight reflex sight immediately with my remaining good eye.
I realize I'm a special case but it illustrated to me how under stress one might not be able to use a LPVO quickly enough without lots of practice.
I just don't have the time to devote to "gettting good with it." I can use the Meprolight with my off eye RIGHT NOW.
I'm not a fan of the LPVO on any platform. I think Pappabear has ONE on a gun that I don't completely hate. But I'd never buy or run one.
Something with that low of power, but that much bulk on top of the gun just doesn't work for me. No hate if it works for other guys... just zero appeal to me.
I don't think they are superior for an urban police officer or home defense. With the exception of SWAT, police officers don't engage at 300 yards and God help the home defender who pops a criminal at that range.
Andy
I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I'm not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
If there's a threat at 2 or 3 hunnit, It would likely be an "active shooter" where a patrol guy could easily identify the situation. That said, any rifleman worth his ass can make that shot with irons or an RDS.
Pappabear and I shot next to a SWAT sniper team last summer. Not one round was fired outside of 100M. Overhearing their conversations lead me to learn that they are very concerned about POI of specific ammo lots out of their guns, and the ability/confidence they'd have taking a head shot, etc. at real world 50-100M distances.
(just my opinions from shooting long range, and watching the PD swat do their thing)
Doc Safari
09-21-18, 11:21
If there's a threat at 2 or 3 hunnit, It would likely be an "active shooter" where a patrol guy could easily identify the situation. That said, any rifleman worth his ass can make that shot with irons or an RDS.
Pappabear and I shot next to a SWAT sniper team last summer. Not one round was fired outside of 100M. Overhearing their conversations lead me to learn that they are very concerned about POI of specific ammo lots out of their guns, and the ability/confidence they'd have taking a head shot, etc. at real world 50-100M distances.
(just my opinions from shooting long range, and watching the PD swat do their thing)
I live on a ranch with plenty of opportunities to see potential threats at 300+ yards. The thing is, I'm not sure at that distance I could determine definitively if someone is a threat of immediate bodily harm or just "a lost hunter". Granted, on the two-way range in a war or something one would almost assume a distant individual is a threat--but that's not due to the utility of the optic but the ongoing tactical situation no matter what optic is employed.
If there's a threat at 2 or 3 hunnit, It would likely be an "active shooter" where a patrol guy could easily identify the situation. That said, any rifleman worth his ass can make that shot with irons or an RDS.
Pappabear and I shot next to a SWAT sniper team last summer. Not one round was fired outside of 100M. Overhearing their conversations lead me to learn that they are very concerned about POI of specific ammo lots out of their guns, and the ability/confidence they'd have taking a head shot, etc. at real world 50-100M distances.
(just my opinions from shooting long range, and watching the PD swat do their thing)
For sure it would most likely be an active shooter. I'm not saying you can't make that shot with a RDS or irons but if you can make that shot more precise thanks to a LPVO why would you not? Same thing with taking a shorter distance, say 50 yards, hostage shot on demand. Can you do it with a RDS? Sure, but if I want that shot to be as precise as possible and crank my LPVO up to 2-3x where as with other options I only have fixed magnification options I want to be able to do that.
What about a rolling domestic where the suspect has a gun and the vehicle is seen stopping in Aisle X of the local Walmart parking lot? You can clear down the aisle with the rifle on 1x and zoom it as you get closer to cover the vehicle or take the shot as necessary.
Personally, I'd rather have the options of being able to zoom. At least with the LPVO the weight is centered where as the weight with a flip up magnifier is off to the side which I find awkward. Also, the whole I keep my magnifier in my kit thing I've heard is stupid, where is that kit with the magnifier at when you grab your rifle and go? Not with the rifle.
Does anyone have any long term use with the Leupold Patrol 1.25x4? Although I've had mine for a year or so and quite honestly, I haven't had the funds/time to really to really wring it out.
Just wanted to know if there is anything I should look out for.
I LOVE the clarity and weight. And its daylight bright firedot with auto on. Don't really care for the exposed dials and the minimum 1.25 magnification. But I wanted something to get my foot in the door of LPVO and will work with my astigmatism.
I know its older design. Just looking for someone with any experience regarding its durability.
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I don't have much time behind the Leupold 1.25x4x Patrol, but I have been using Leupold scopes for decades. Generally, Leupold offers the best balance of weight, ruggedness, optical clarity and price of any scope I've looked at. I compared the 1.25-4x to other LPVs and I feel it's the best value, especially in it's price range. One thing I really like about the Patrol is it's optical clarity and that the field of view fills the ocular lens better than anything else. That is, the circular "frame" around the picture you see in the scope is much thinner than most of the other brands.
I had concerns that the 1.25x would be too much of a handicap at in-your-face ranges, but so far, that hasn't been the case. Maybe not quite as fast as an RDS inside say, ten yards. But it's easier and faster than iron sights. Keep in mind that I've only had the scope a couple of months and am still running it through the wringer. So far, I'm impressed, especially since I got the scope and Leupold mount for just a little over $500. I really like that the dot turns itself off to preserve the battery, but comes on at the slightest touch.
I haven't any worries about the ruggedness of the Patrol. I don't think it would survive the torture Larry Vickers put the Aimpoint mounted the DD carbine through. But my Leupolds have survived decades of riding around in a Jeep in the backcountry, falling down mountains, hot deserts, winter hunts, rain, snow and several household moves without losing zero, fogging, denting or loss of optical clarity. I think your Patrol will serve you well.
For sure it would most likely be an active shooter. I'm not saying you can't make that shot with a RDS or irons but if you can make that shot more precise thanks to a LPVO why would you not? Same thing with taking a shorter distance, say 50 yards, hostage shot on demand. Can you do it with a RDS? Sure, but if I want that shot to be as precise as possible and crank my LPVO up to 2-3x where as with other options I only have fixed magnification options I want to be able to do that.
What about a rolling domestic where the suspect has a gun and the vehicle is seen stopping in Aisle X of the local Walmart parking lot? You can clear down the aisle with the rifle on 1x and zoom it as you get closer to cover the vehicle or take the shot as necessary.
Personally, I'd rather have the options of being able to zoom. At least with the LPVO the weight is centered where as the weight with a flip up magnifier is off to the side which I find awkward. Also, the whole I keep my magnifier in my kit thing I've heard is stupid, where is that kit with the magnifier at when you grab your rifle and go? Not with the rifle.
As you're saying, this is the beauty of an LPVO. Its there if you want it unlike an ACOG, if not most of the quality ones have very fast performance at 1x. The only downsides to them are weight and cost.
For sure it would most likely be an active shooter. I'm not saying you can't make that shot with a RDS or irons but if you can make that shot more precise thanks to a LPVO why would you not?
I don't disagree. But to me, that length of a shot for patrol is the exception. The increased bulk of the LVPO is just not worth the rare scenario to me.
Nocalsocal
09-21-18, 12:09
Thanks!
I traded a Aimpoint Pro for the Patrol because I just couldnt get pass my astigmatism, with or without my Rx lenses. I love the awesome eye relief at the low end. And I agree with you that at 10 yds or less it can be slower than a red dot. Anything past that I really don't feel I'm at a disadvantage.
I mounted it a Midwest Industries QD mount and hoping to see if it will survive my not so gentle range sessions and future carbine classes.
I don't have much time behind the Leupold 1.25x4x Patrol, but I have been using Leupold scopes for decades. Generally, Leupold offers the best balance of weight, ruggedness, optical clarity and price of any scope I've looked at. I compared the 1.25-4x to other LPVs and I feel it's the best value, especially in it's price range. One thing I really like about the Patrol is it's optical clarity and that the field of view fills the ocular lens better than anything else. That is, the circular "frame" around the picture you see in the scope is much thinner than most of the other brands.
I had concerns that the 1.25x would be too much of a handicap at in-your-face ranges, but so far, that hasn't been the case. Maybe not quite as fast as an RDS inside say, ten yards. But it's easier and faster than iron sights. Keep in mind that I've only had the scope a couple of months and am still running it through the wringer. So far, I'm impressed, especially since I got the scope and Leupold mount for just a little over $500. I really like that the dot turns itself off to preserve the battery, but comes on at the slightest touch.
I haven't any worries about the ruggedness of the Patrol. I don't think it would survive the torture Larry Vickers put the Aimpoint mounted the DD carbine through. But my Leupolds have survived decades of riding around in a Jeep in the backcountry, falling down mountains, hot deserts, winter hunts, rain, snow and several household moves without losing zero, fogging, denting or loss of optical clarity. I think your Patrol will serve you well.
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As you're saying, this is the beauty of an LPVO. Its there if you want it unlike an ACOG, if not most of the quality ones have very fast performance at 1x. The only downsides to them are weight and cost.
Agreed they are heavier and they do cost significantly more. If the gun is only going to be used at HD distances the juice isn't worth the squeeze. If you have the potential for anything longer I think it is. YMMV.
I don't disagree. But to me, that length of a shot for patrol is the exception. The increased bulk of the LVPO is just not worth the rare scenario to me.
Sure its rare, its rare most places to draw your patrol rifle to begin with. But if we weren't talking rarities we would be carrying the rifle every time we got out of the squad to begin with.
Quality LPVOs usually make you end up about $1-2k after mount and how quality you want to go and you are at about 25-30oz all together I'd wager. An Aimpoint plus a magnifier/mount gets you into the $1k ballpark as well with a mixed magnification and an awkward flip to side mount. An Aimpoint Pro is 11.6oz, the 3x magnifier is another 7.1oz plus whatever mount you get. Putting you already 2/3 of the way to the weight of a quality LPVO and mount. I'm not saying the LPVO is perfect for every gun owner but IMO it checks a lot more boxes for a rifle if you ever plan on taking it outside the home distances.
Sure its rare, its rare most places to draw your patrol rifle to begin with. But if we weren't talking rarities we would be carrying the rifle every time we got out of the squad to begin with.
Quality LPVOs usually make you end up about $1-2k after mount and how quality you want to go and you are at about 25-30oz all together I'd wager. An Aimpoint plus a magnifier/mount gets you into the $1k ballpark as well with a mixed magnification and an awkward flip to side mount. An Aimpoint Pro is 11.6oz, the 3x magnifier is another 7.1oz plus whatever mount you get. Putting you already 2/3 of the way to the weight of a quality LPVO and mount. I'm not saying the LPVO is perfect for every gun owner but IMO it checks a lot more boxes for a rifle if you ever plan on taking it outside the home distances.
I don't disagree with any of your post.. I still, however, don't have love for LPVOs.
I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I'm not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
Could is a pretty powerful word.
I am just a civilian amd I don't have access to statistics showing engagement distances, but I would be shocked if more than a handful of officers ever engaged a suspect at more than 50 yards.
My brother is a Deputy in a very rural county and his HK 416 wears an AP Pro.
Andy
but I would be shocked if more than a handful of officers ever engaged a suspect at more than 50 yards.
Not unthinkable, but indeed... exceedingly rare. They make TV documentaries out of those kind of good guy saves.
Yes the average engagement distance is within 7 yards. But hey if were only going to train for the average stuff LE probably shouldn't practice firearms at all right since something like only 0.3% of officers in the country will get into a shooting during their career? Or maybe everything we do should be 7 shots in 7 seconds at 7 yards or whatever the exact average is. We probably shouldn't carry a rifle either since MOST cops will never use it. If you only train and prepare for the average you are shortcoming yourself when you get into a situation that isn't the average and the same goes for equipment. I'm not saying you can't get away with using an aimpoint for a LE rifle by any means. Mine still rocks a PRO until my Razor gets here for it, but that doesn't mean their aren't better options IMO.
militarymoron
09-21-18, 14:08
I've been a long-time user of the Aimpoint Comp and T-series RDS. As I grow older, my eyesight is also getting worse, and target identification becomes an issue. Even discerning a small bullseye at 50 yards is more difficult than it used to be. Combined with my astigmatism, trying out a LPVO made sense. My Steiner P4Xi cost less with mount than my T1's and has a diopter adjustment to sharpen the image. A bit slower at distances under 25 yards, but much more versatile out to 300 yds than an unmagnified RDS. Again, if I have trouble seeing the target, I have trouble aiming at it and hitting it. The LPVO helps me see the target better, and that translates to better hits. If I have to pick ONE optic for a 'do it all' AR, it'd have a LPVO on it.
If i could only have 1 AR, it would absolutely have a LPVO. The ability to have a red dot like reticle up close, and also be able to crank it up to higher power for positive ID or precision shots at distance, is awesome. Making headshots on a hostage target at 100 yards with an LPVO is cake compared to a red dot.
I've been a red dot guy for a long time, and still have them on a few guns, like my home defense rifle, by my truck gun and go-to 16" AR now sports a 1-8, and I don't forsee going back any time soon.
Doc Safari
09-21-18, 14:36
I've been a long-time user of the Aimpoint Comp and T-series RDS. As I grow older, my eyesight is also getting worse, and target identification becomes an issue. Even discerning a small bullseye at 50 yards is more difficult than it used to be. Combined with my astigmatism, trying out a LPVO made sense. My Steiner P4Xi cost less with mount than my T1's and has a diopter adjustment to sharpen the image. A bit slower at distances under 25 yards, but much more versatile out to 300 yds than an unmagnified RDS. Again, if I have trouble seeing the target, I have trouble aiming at it and hitting it. The LPVO helps me see the target better, and that translates to better hits. If I have to pick ONE optic for a 'do it all' AR, it'd have a LPVO on it.
I do see your logic. I too am suffering from aging eyes.
Here's my thought process:
1. The target gets harder to identify at longer ranges as one's vision gets older
2. The rifle gets harder to hold steadier due to the "wobbly" quality of one's steadiness at higher magnification
3. For home defense, center of mass seems to be the "standard", and not tiny bullseyes on paper targets
4. RDS's and reflex sights have a larger, more forgiving window, eye relief, eye box, etc., than an LPVO
5. Speed and reaction time are already slowing due to age, and are even slower with a magnified optic
Conclusion: For me at least, as I get older I'm more concerned with keeping an accuracy standard of "minute of torso" (or worse, "minute of human") rather than trying to hit a small bullseye.
Advantage: red dot or reflex sight.
YMMV
redpillregret
09-21-18, 14:41
Have you guys ever run drills on a timer side by side with a variable and an RDS? What were the results?
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Voodoo_Man
09-21-18, 15:34
For those talking about the leupy 1.25-4x firedot I did a review a few years ago - http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html
For those asking about times of RDS versus LPV, at 1x any mid to higher end LPV will yield same results. The only caveat is that I had issues with the illuminated horse shoe reticles from various companies, like the MTAC, so I stay away from them and prefer the single RDS style dot of the new NX8 or the older USO's, etc. I saw very close times when running drills out to 50 yards on man size targets. When you start getting out to the 75y+ range you'll do better and more accurately with an LPV, at least I do.
Current new LPV's on the market are VERY good. The cheaper Vortex strike-eagles 1-6x and 1-8x are VERY good for what they are for the average person. If you are looking to put a decent optic on a people-shooting rifle, I'd recommend something "duty" grade, so a vortex in the $1200+ area, an NX8 or the ATACR.
patriot_man
09-21-18, 15:51
I've gone from Red Dot to LPVO and now Red Dot and ACOG + RMR.
There is no denying that an ACOG is more durable than a LPVO. There are less moving parts (not even a diopter adjustment), it has its own specifically designed mount that reduces the chances of mounting error or things to go wrong, and is forged out of 7075.
Switching from LPVO to ACOG has reduced the weight and has given me a separation of 1x and magnification which I've come to find, is something I prefer. The new hotness is red dots mounted at 2" and higher, the RMR piggy backed on an ACOG gives me that extra height that I've always liked.
Another set-up I saw, that I've been toying with the idea of trying, is the KAC skyscraper + Aimpoint Comp M5 + Leupold DEVO.
Have you guys ever run drills on a timer side by side with a variable and an RDS? What were the results?
If all you care about is closer in drills, an RDO will win out every time if everything else is equal. If you start to involve distance, or include things like actually identifying targets which are partially obscured, or in lower light, the difference changes very quickly.
Nocalsocal
09-21-18, 16:41
Yup!
I remembered reading your review awhile back. And it was one of the reasons I jumped on the Leupold Patrol 1.25 x 4 when it was offered in a trade.
I haven't had any formal instructions in how to run a LPVO. So I maybe wrong in how I use it. With the simple but effective Leupold Firedot reticle I've gotten use to using it as magnified RDS with really clear glass. Zeroing it for 50/200 and cranking up the magnification as the need arises. Only using holdovers if I know the target is past 200 yds.
For those talking about the leupy 1.25-4x firedot I did a review a few years ago - http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html
For those asking about times of RDS versus LPV, at 1x any mid to higher end LPV will yield same results. The only caveat is that I had issues with the illuminated horse shoe reticles from various companies, like the MTAC, so I stay away from them and prefer the single RDS style dot of the new NX8 or the older USO's, etc. I saw very close times when running drills out to 50 yards on man size targets. When you start getting out to the 75y+ range you'll do better and more accurately with an LPV, at least I do.
Current new LPV's on the market are VERY good. The cheaper Vortex strike-eagles 1-6x and 1-8x are VERY good for what they are for the average person. If you are looking to put a decent optic on a people-shooting rifle, I'd recommend something "duty" grade, so a vortex in the $1200+ area, an NX8 or the ATACR.
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We just had an officer here recently use his Steiner equipped Colt 6920 to shoot and kill an armed suspect. Suspect was about 35 yards away and there is little doubt that the optic was a benefit in delivering precision shots.
I've been a long-time user of the Aimpoint Comp and T-series RDS. As I grow older, my eyesight is also getting worse, and target identification becomes an issue. Even discerning a small bullseye at 50 yards is more difficult than it used to be. Combined with my astigmatism, trying out a LPVO made sense. My Steiner P4Xi cost less with mount than my T1's and has a diopter adjustment to sharpen the image. A bit slower at distances under 25 yards, but much more versatile out to 300 yds than an unmagnified RDS. Again, if I have trouble seeing the target, I have trouble aiming at it and hitting it. The LPVO helps me see the target better, and that translates to better hits. If I have to pick ONE optic for a 'do it all' AR, it'd have a LPVO on it.
Socom Elite
09-21-18, 17:26
If all you care about is closer in drills, an RDO will win out every time if everything else is equal. If you start to involve distance, or include things like actually identifying targets which are partially obscured, or in lower light, the difference changes very quickly.
Hit the nail on the head. It’s not just the distance but also the size of the target. Think of it this way. If you’re shooting at someone that might have a gun are you just going to stand there? Hell no. Not if cover is available. Well he might be doing the same. You might be looking for an elbow or half a face sticking out from around cover. Just like you should be doing. Yes they add a little weight and they are more expensive. But the weight isn’t anything compared to a silencer at the end of the barrel which I’m sure plenty of people here have. And cost? Well, don’t be poor.
redpillregret
09-21-18, 17:32
Hit the nail on the head. It’s not just the distance but also the size of the target. Think of it this way. If you’re shooting at someone that might have a gun are you just going to stand there? Hell no. Not if cover is available. Well he might be doing the same. You might be looking for an elbow or half a face sticking out from around cover. Just like you should be doing. Yes they add a little weight and they are more expensive. But the weight isn’t anything compared to a silencer at the end of the barrel which I’m sure plenty of people here have. And cost? Well, don’t be poor.
Very good points.
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Hit the nail on the head. It’s not just the distance but also the size of the target. Think of it this way. If you’re shooting at someone that might have a gun are you just going to stand there? Hell no. Not if cover is available. Well he might be doing the same. You might be looking for an elbow or half a face sticking out from around cover. Just like you should be doing. Yes they add a little weight and they are more expensive. But the weight isn’t anything compared to a silencer at the end of the barrel which I’m sure plenty of people here have. And cost? Well, don’t be poor.
Most LPVs are heavier than most suppressors.
One advantage LPVs have over the RDS is optical clarity and sharpness. The LPV can be focused. The RDS being a 0x optic cannot be focused.
Socom Elite
09-21-18, 23:44
Most LPVs are heavier than most suppressors.
One advantage LPVs have over the RDS is optical clarity and sharpness. The LPV can be focused. The RDS being a 0x optic cannot be focused.
What can. Not really. An sf rc2 is 17 oz which is right around the weight of a lpvo. But there is a big difference between weight on the center of the rifle and 17 oz at the muzzle.
What can. Not really. An sf rc2 is 17 oz which is right around the weight of a lpvo. But there is a big difference between weight on the center of the rifle and 17 oz at the muzzle.
Most LPVs are more than 20 oz. Mounts add even more weight. I don't like the top heavy feel the heavier LPVs give an AR.
You're right about where the weight is located makes a difference in handling. My suppressors are mounted to 11.5" uppers and handle better than if they were mounted to a longer barrel.
Nightstalker865
09-22-18, 07:26
Here is an excellent video that should help answer some of the questions brought up here.
https://youtu.be/jilqXipJFm0
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Here is the great thing.
If you like your RDS or ACOG, you can keep your RDS or ACOG.
Most LPVs are more than 20 oz. Mounts add even more weight. I don't like the top heavy feel the heavier LPVs give an AR.
You're right about where the weight is located makes a difference in handling. My suppressors are mounted to 11.5" uppers and handle better than if they were mounted to a longer barrel.
Not disputing what you said, but there are some options at lighter weight.
Leupold vxr patrol is 12oz, larue mount 7oz
NF nx8 is 17oz
Khales 1-6 is17oz
Now, lower cost options like vortex 1-6 are 24oz iirc optic only. So light weight costs money.
For reference.
Acogs are 10oz (4x) 12oz w/mount
Aimpoint t2 w/ mount 5-6 oz.
Sf mini 14.5oz
Imo, due to weight, if Im not getting something like the NF or khales, the weight (around 25oz) makes more sense to get a 2.5-10 with rmr, which at that point, i think i need to narrow the purpose of the rifle and go either rds, 2.5-10 only, or lpv- full circle.
Here is an excellent video that should help answer some of the questions brought up here.
https://youtu.be/jilqXipJFm0
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I've always enjoyed his videos. They're well made and informative while still being succinct and fun to watch.
Voodoo_Man
09-22-18, 09:50
If the weight of the optic is an issue get a proof CF barrel. If that's too expensive, weights not the issue.
If the weight of the optic is an issue get a proof CF barrel. If that's too expensive, weights not the issue.
Carbon fiber doesn’t save you meaningful weight on these types of barrels. Pencil profiles will.
Voodoo_Man
09-22-18, 10:16
Carbon fiber doesn’t save you meaningful weight on these types of barrels. Pencil profiles will.
I was being rhetorical.
But I've shot both, and there's nothing like proofs carbon fiber barrel to make the rifle feel light.
glockshooter
09-22-18, 10:37
It’s kind of funny this topic has come up on a few different sites recently. It’s also funny that many people refuse to listen to the info being provided. Very few of the people in this topic have had to look at an armed person on the other side of an optic and are arguing the LPVO is not the most viable option out there today. It’s weird because how can anyone argue that any RDS or an ACOG is a better choice than an LPVO. If anyone has the ability to decide or determine what, when, and where a threat will be is probably best to just avoid the situation all together. Sure if i knew that all i would ever do is a entry into a house or small office space I’d Want a RDS, but that’s not how it works. Target ID is a huge advantage, but so is being able to increase distance while still being able to provide precision shots. We specifically added AP 3x magnifiers to our entry guns for guys that might get assigned to the outer perimeter. I do think could be some limiting factors on SBRs with LPVOs based on the size of the optic. To me weight of an optic is not a huge deal. One of the reasons is due to the fact the optic is mounted towards the center of the rifle and doesn’t significantly effect the balance of the rifle. A suppressor has a huge effect of the handling characteristics, because they increase length and weight. However the weight is at the absolute worst position. The 12-25 ounces at the end of a rifle can make a significant difference. Something else that hasn’t been considered by many is the adjustability of a LPVO. It’s not just magnification adjustment. It’s a focal adjustment. You can adjust it to an individuals eyesight. If you choose a quality LVPO they are durable, adjustable, and versatile. My personal setups are SBRs with RDS with magnifiers, 14.5/16” rifles with LPVOs, 18” with 2.5-10, other length and calibers have higher mag scopes. My RDS sights are trijicon MRO, RMR, AP. My LVPOs are Vortex Razors and Gen2 Vipers. If i had to choose one configuration it with likely be a 14.5 with a quality LPVO. In my opinion is the my versatile setup. It’s not perfect at any one situation, but it’s really good for all situations.
For my potential engagements, with my carbine, a RDS will get the job done just fine. I am not a police officer, I am not a military combatant, and the distances I can see from either of my houses is well under 50 yards. The ability to quickly used my backup sights through my RDS also make it more robust and failsafe...for me.
I started my serious training and use of a carbine with a Trijicon TR-24. It failed one magazine into my first real carbine class. Actually, something internally failed and my 4x portion of my scope resulted in 14" misses at 100 yds.. dial it back to 1x and it was on again. I just ran the class at 1x and did just fine. LPVO's have come a long ways since that time, but I still have that nagging doubt in the back of my mind. One thing I really didn't like about the Trijicon was that it made using iron sights as back up a real chore.
I switched to RDS sights on my carbines and haven't really looked back. I have carbines with LPVO's that I use at longer distances because it's fun to shoot steel, but they haven't replaced my goto defensive carbine yet.
Coal Dragger
09-22-18, 12:33
I’ve used more or less all the sighting solutions discussed here in one form or another, the ACOG while in the Marine Corps as well as a personally owned Aimpoint because my command allowed it.
Both were good optics and I wouldn’t feel like I was getting shafted being issued a carbine with either setup if I was still in. I went to Iraq in 2004 and for most of my tour the Aimpoint made more sense to use because we were in built up areas more often than not. Had I instead gone to Afghanistan the ACOG would probably have been more useful most of the time.
My current and probably favorite carbine, the one I would grab if I could take only one is a 16” SR-15 with a Nightforce 1-4X24 NXS. If I were to change anything about it, I’d love to have an ATACR 1-8 or the NX8. I’m an unabashed Nightforce fan boy after having a hunting rifle fall out of a stand and hit hard enough to wreck the stock, the NXS 3.5-15X50 on top of the rifle hit the deck hard and the scope held zero and still works to this day. I am not worried about Nightforce LPVO durability or survivability.
I ran this same optic in Pat Mac a class a couple of years ago and managed the fastest practice run on his rifle scrambler, and lost out to another good shooter on the final who was also running a LPVO. We both handily outperformed the RDS shooters overall.
Someone else pointed out that you can’t always predict what circumstances you’ll need to use your carbine under, be it in a fight, hunting, pest control... whatever. So with that in mind I have mine set up as a general purpose long gun. If you know exactly what you’re likely to be doing or have a set role on a team then specialization of your tools is great, otherwise flexibility sure is nice and the LPVO gives a lot of flexibility.
What can. Not really. An sf rc2 is 17 oz which is right around the weight of a lpvo. But there is a big difference between weight on the center of the rifle and 17 oz at the muzzle.
There are several LPVs that weigh more than most K cans.
Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x 24 oz
Trijicon Accupoint 1-6x 19oz
Trijicon Accupower 1-8x 25 oz
Trijicon VCOG 1-6x (no mount or battery) 23 oz
Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6x 25oz
Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6x 22 oz
Vortex PST Gen II 23 oz
Nightforce ATACR 1-8x 21 oz
Steiner T5Xi 1-5x 19 oz
To me weight of an optic is not a huge deal. One of the reasons is due to the fact the optic is mounted towards the center of the rifle and doesn’t significantly effect the balance of the rifle.
The weight of an LPV is is important to me because it does affect weight and balance. A heavy optic may not change center of gravity much fore and aft, but it does noticeably affect CG up and down. A heavy optic can turn an AR with delightful handling into an awkward lump.
This isn't an argument against LPVs. This is an argument for considering weight when choosing an LPV. I have an upper with a lightweight Leupold Patrol 1.25-4x that I like very much.
A suppressor has a huge effect of the handling characteristics, because they increase length and weight. However the weight is at the absolute worst position. The 12-25 ounces at the end of a rifle can make a significant difference.
This is a good point and the reason why my suppressor resides on an 11.5" upper. The suppressed short upper has about the same balance and is only a couple inches longer than a pinned & welded 14.5" upper.
glockshooter
09-22-18, 13:53
AKDoug,
I agree for your stated use a RDS will work fine for you. I’m not saying everyone should have a LPVO, I’m saying that if you in a position that is multi-mission a LPVO works best as a jack or all trades thing.
I’ve used more or less all the sighting solutions discussed here in one form or another, the ACOG while in the Marine Corps as well as a personally owned Aimpoint because my command allowed it.
Both were good optics and I wouldn’t feel like I was getting shafted being issued a carbine with either setup if I was still in. I went to Iraq in 2004 and for most of my tour the Aimpoint made more sense to use because we were in built up areas more often than not. Had I instead gone to Afghanistan the ACOG would probably have been more useful most of the time.
My current and probably favorite carbine, the one I would grab if I could take only one is a 16” SR-15 with a Nightforce 1-4X24 NXS. If I were to change anything about it, I’d love to have an ATACR 1-8 or the NX8. I’m an unabashed Nightforce fan boy after having a hunting rifle fall out of a stand and hit hard enough to wreck the stock, the NXS 3.5-15X50 on top of the rifle hit the deck hard and the scope held zero and still works to this day. I am not worried about Nightforce LPVO durability or survivability.
I ran this same optic in Pat Mac a class a couple of years ago and managed the fastest practice run on his rifle scrambler, and lost out to another good shooter on the final who was also running a LPVO. We both handily outperformed the RDS shooters overall.
Someone else pointed out that you can’t always predict what circumstances you’ll need to use your carbine under, be it in a fight, hunting, pest control... whatever. So with that in mind I have mine set up as a general purpose long gun. If you know exactly what you’re likely to be doing or have a set role on a team then specialization of your tools is great, otherwise flexibility sure is nice and the LPVO gives a lot of flexibility.
Good, broad experience reply. If there were any chance I had to run just ONE AR, the LPVO might be more appealing. But when we want to reach out in the mid ranges of 400-750 yards, we grab the ACOGs or SPRish guns with NSX NightForce. I get that the LPVO gives flexibility on a single gun though.
I like the TR24 with triangle post. At 1x it is nearly as fast and a red dot and 4x is plenty of magnification for my needs (hunting/home defense).
There are better options out there but I like the comparatively light weight and simplicity of the reticle. To me, an LPVO makes sense for people looking for a general purpose optic that can be used effectively up close and out to 300 yards.
Plus I have a sight astigmatism.
I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I'm not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
He is correct in that in LE we are not making shots at 300 yards. I know there have been a few at long distance, but lets be honest, it isn't anything even a little bit close to that sort of distance in real life, and that is even if we add in marksman engagements.
What he is missing is that if I need to make a shot through bushes, brush, cars, windows, or anything else where my center of mass is incredibly small, never mind having to make a head shot, there are some large variables coming into play that are not seen when someone runs around punching paper.
Coal Dragger
09-22-18, 16:22
Good, broad experience reply. If there were any chance I had to run just ONE AR, the LPVO might be more appealing. But when we want to reach out in the mid ranges of 400-750 yards, we grab the ACOGs or SPRish guns with NSX NightForce. I get that the LPVO gives flexibility on a single gun though.
Even the 1-4X24 NXS I’m currently running has gotten me to first round hits out to 552 yards measured with a Leica LRF 1600b. The FC-3G reticle is markedly superior to the ACOG since the Nightforce has wind holds, and they work. Now I’ll concede that getting to 600-750 yards with 4X and a BDC that only goes to 600 is going to be a lot more difficult than with something like the 2.5-10X32 NXS (owned one briefly fantastic little scope).
On the other hand the new NX8 1-8 and ATACR 1-8 both have useful reticles, and 8X will be not too far off the capabilities of acquiring targets and giving a good sight picture compared to 10X. While still maintaining a true 1X bottom end for closer work. That kind of optic has the potential to cover so much ground from 0-800 yards with good ammo, it’s tough to ignore.
Coal Dragger
09-22-18, 16:26
He is correct in that in LE we are not making shots at 300 yards. I know there have been a few at long distance, but lets be honest, it isn't anything even a little bit close to that sort of distance in real life, and that is even if we add in marksman engagements.
What he is missing is that if I need to make a shot through bushes, brush, cars, windows, or anything else where my center of mass is incredibly small, never mind having to make a head shot, there are some large variables coming into play that are not seen when someone runs around punching paper.
Plus the magnified optic gives you the ability to gather information you might not get otherwise so you can make good shoot/no shoot decisions. How many officers are going to have a set of binos? Do you really want to be transitioning between binos and your RDS carbine? Yeah probably not.
One point I would add to help answer OP’s question- the AR community has achieved widespread acceptance only in the last 15-20 years, with the expiration of the AWB, long duration of GWOT, and the proliferation of AR manufacturers and products. As time marches on, early adopters, military veterans, and long-time shooters have seen their eyesight worsen as they age. RDS were a great advancement in AR optics at the time, but LPVOs will only become more popular as the AR community ages.
thegreyman
09-23-18, 06:46
Fixed power optics like the ACOG are obsolescent. Good LPVOs give you 90-95% the capability of a RDS while giving you better a magnified sight picture than an ACOG.
LPVO = a slightly less forgiving RDS + low magnification scope
Obsolescent for Vatican police? For mall security? For video games? Don't you think "obsolete" is a gross exaggeration? It is excellent optic in 1.5 ACSS configuration or 3.5 or 4.0 configuration for specific purposes.
First I had an ACOG, this was around 2008. I was left wanting something better for close range.
Then the Aimpoint T1 when it came out. It was great up close, but wished I had the 4x at times. Also I found out I had astigmatism sometimes.
Then I got a Nightforce 1-4 nxs. This changed my life. I had the aimpoint (to an extent) and an ACOG in one. I also have everything in between.
I’m all LPV now. I’m keep buying them. I have bought three more since the Nightforce. I’m going to buy a Nightforce 1-8 next.
One point I would add to help answer OP’s question- the AR community has achieved widespread acceptance only in the last 15-20 years, with the expiration of the AWB, long duration of GWOT, and the proliferation of AR manufacturers and products. As time marches on, early adopters, military veterans, and long-time shooters have seen their eyesight worsen as they age. RDS were a great advancement in AR optics at the time, but LPVOs will only become more popular as the AR community ages.
Ironically, the RDS is the only optic my Dad can use effectively. Everyone's vision is different. Even my K16i was crap for him.
He is correct in that in LE we are not making shots at 300 yards. I know there have been a few at long distance, but lets be honest, it isn't anything even a little bit close to that sort of distance in real life, and that is even if we add in marksman engagements.
What he is missing is that if I need to make a shot through bushes, brush, cars, windows, or anything else where my center of mass is incredibly small, never mind having to make a head shot, there are some large variables coming into play that are not seen when someone runs around punching paper.
Figured out years ago (and long before I got an lpvo) that paper/steel targets don't have to be small or very far away to disappear from the unaided eye if they are the right/wrong color compared to the surroundings.
glockshooter
09-23-18, 09:52
Obsolescent for Vatican police? For mall security? For video games? Don't you think "obsolete" is a gross exaggeration? It is excellent optic in 1.5 ACSS configuration or 3.5 or 4.0 configuration for specific purposes.
A fixed power magnified optic mostly obsolete. The ACOG line is absolutely less than ideal as compared to current optics of that quality. Everyone the defends an ACOG ends up going with the RMR on top deal. So basically they are saying for a ACOG to be good it needs the ability to do 1x and have a magnifying ability. ACOGs were a huge step forward at the time. Now they don’t have the ability to keep up.
I edited this reply, in case anyone read it.
I realize I am coming from a different mindset, I am a Logistician, not a Tactician.
I would rather have every officer supplied with a quality carbine wearing a $400 RDS and 4 batteries per year. I accept they will not be ideally armed for every encounter, but that combination will give them the upper hand in the vast majority of shootings. It will also be easier and cheaper to train, qualify and maintain proficiency with that combination.
Like I said before, officers should be allowed to qualify with and carry a quality private purchase LPVO, hell the department should even offset $400 of the purchase. I just don't see it as the best choice for general issue.
Andy
Obsolescent for Vatican police? For mall security? For video games? Don't you think "obsolete" is a gross exaggeration? It is excellent optic in 1.5 ACSS configuration or 3.5 or 4.0 configuration for specific purposes.
No, it's not an exaggeration. Fixed power scopes have been obsolete since the 80s or 90s. I remember when 4x scopes were the bread & butter of every scope maker in the business with the 6x being their premier model. Fixed power scopes were lighter, more rugged and had brighter, sharper glass. Variables were expensive, heavy, fragile and had POI shifts when changing magnification. Since then, optics technology has advanced by leaps and bounds and I can think of no practical reason to choose a fixed power scope over a variable. Indeed, the fixed power scope offerings of most makers is very limited and it's been years since I've been to any shop with any in stock.
Are the LPVO more subject to have zero knocked out of whack by bumping it? i.e. anymore so than a good RDS or ACOG?
When I see a LPVO on an AR I see a scope, and as such think it's vulnerable to all the things scopes have traditionally been subject to. Drop your 30.06 bolt gun while in the woods deer hunting and you're probably going to have to re-zero before you attempt to drop a critter. ACOG's, for example, have a reputation for ruggedness. Have LPVOs attained this level of ruggedness yet?
To be fair, I had an AR with a T-1 on it fall out of my safe and land right on the top of the RDS (figures, could have fallen 10 different ways but noooo). When I went to re-check the zero I was off by 6 inches at 50 yards! Yeah, nothing is perfect.
****not an expert****
I think the mounts are the critical part of this. Mounts are designed to be taken off and remounted without shifting zero. There has to be a certain amount of combat use designed into these mounts now. Your old deer rifle with whatever scope rings was never designed like that. Also remember that most AR's are realistically 1-4 MOA guns depending on quality of gun, ammo and shooter.
Are the LPVO more subject to have zero knocked out of whack by bumping it? i.e. anymore so than a good RDS or ACOG?
No one questions the ruggedness of an ACOG but no one questions the ruggedness of an 03-A3 either. The era of the fixed power scope has passed. It's been surpassed by the variable scope. Someday the optical sight will be surpassed by electronic imaging sights when the technology has advanced to the point they are rugged, light and cheap. We'll be grumbling why optical sights are still viable although everyone now has a TV atop their M4s.
redpillregret
09-23-18, 15:51
Durability depends on quality and the mount. Good quality variables from 15 years ago in good mounts were completely durable....as much or more so than ACOGs and RDSs.
I’ve never personally owned an ACOG but have. Lot of time on them. And I have seen them fail.
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Coal Dragger
09-23-18, 15:51
Are the LPVO more subject to have zero knocked out of whack by bumping it? i.e. anymore so than a good RDS or ACOG?
When I see a LPVO on an AR I see a scope, and as such think it's vulnerable to all the things scopes have traditionally been subject to. Drop your 30.06 bolt gun while in the woods deer hunting and you're probably going to have to re-zero before you attempt to drop a critter. ACOG's, for example, have a reputation for ruggedness. Have LPVOs attained this level of ruggedness yet?
To be fair, I had an AR with a T-1 on it fall out of my safe and land right on the top of the RDS (figures, could have fallen 10 different ways but noooo). When I went to re-check the zero I was off by 6 inches at 50 yards! Yeah, nothing is perfect.
An ACOG is still a scope, for that matter red dot sight is too, from the standpoint of the erector system used to make sight adjustment and then hold that adjustment. You either buy optics that have a solid mechanically accurate and durable erector or you don’t. There is no difference mechanically, none, between an ACOG or high quality variable scope in ability to maintain zero where the erector is concerned.
I have a Nightforce 3.5-15X50 that took a 15ft ride to the deck on a rifle. Hit so hard the stock split in half, banged the scope up too. Put a new stock on and went to re-zero. No need still shot to zero after that, still works perfectly.
Buy a quality scope, put it in a quality mount. Stop worrying.
Nightstalker865
09-23-18, 16:18
Are the LPVO more subject to have zero knocked out of whack by bumping it? i.e. anymore so than a good RDS or ACOG?
When I see a LPVO on an AR I see a scope, and as such think it's vulnerable to all the things scopes have traditionally been subject to. Drop your 30.06 bolt gun while in the woods deer hunting and you're probably going to have to re-zero before you attempt to drop a critter. ACOG's, for example, have a reputation for ruggedness. Have LPVOs attained this level of ruggedness yet?
To be fair, I had an AR with a T-1 on it fall out of my safe and land right on the top of the RDS (figures, could have fallen 10 different ways but noooo). When I went to re-check the zero I was off by 6 inches at 50 yards! Yeah, nothing is perfect.
What mount was the T-1 sitting on? That seems very odd.
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What mount was the T-1 sitting on? That seems very odd.
T-1s were known for some vulnerability for drops on the top, hence the reinforced metal top on the T-2.
vicious_cb
09-23-18, 18:36
Obsolescent for Vatican police? For mall security? For video games? Don't you think "obsolete" is a gross exaggeration? It is excellent optic in 1.5 ACSS configuration or 3.5 or 4.0 configuration for specific purposes.
I chose my words very carefully. Obsolesce is not obsolete
"Obsolescence is the state of being which occurs when an object, service, or practice is no longer wanted even though it may still be in good working order. Obsolescence frequently occurs because a replacement has become available that has, in sum, more advantages compared to the disadvantages incurred by maintaining or repairing the original. Obsolete refers to something that is already disused or discarded, or antiquated.[1] Typically, obsolescence is preceded by a gradual decline in popularity."
What mount was the T-1 sitting on? That seems very odd.
An American Defense mount.
I revisited the LVPO yesterday, and I officially hate it. I was on the fence until I gave it a whirl in the context of this thread. I don't know if these things come FFP, but the scope I tried shrinks the reticle down so far when dialed down, it's worthless for speed. You basically have a ghost ring with some lint in the middle of your sight picture.
At distance, it's a decent scope. But dialed down, it's a gargantuan ghost ring.
redpillregret
09-24-18, 10:06
I revisited the LVPO yesterday, and I officially hate it. I was on the fence until I gave it a whirl in the context of this thread. I don't know if these things come FFP, but the scope I tried shrinks the reticle down so far when dialed down, it's worthless for speed. You basically have a ghost ring with some lint in the middle of your sight picture.
At distance, it's a decent scope. But dialed down, it's a gargantuan ghost ring.
Not all are like that. The Vortex Razor HD is SFP and keeps a nice MOA dot at 1x. The reticle is in the second focal plane and can be seen at any power. At this point, IMO, it is the best.
ETA: FFP is stupid for anything under 10x.
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I revisited the LVPO yesterday, and I officially hate it. I was on the fence until I gave it a whirl in the context of this thread. I don't know if these things come FFP, but the scope I tried shrinks the reticle down so far when dialed down, it's worthless for speed. You basically have a ghost ring with some lint in the middle of your sight picture.
At distance, it's a decent scope. But dialed down, it's a gargantuan ghost ring.
If you want something geared for close-range with extended capability, look at something with a bright red-dot. There are a few options out there now.
What you described was my complaint with the pst1-4. It wasnt bright enough to be fast, and the reticle didnt make sense on a 1-4 IMO. Ymmv.
If you want something geared for close-range with extended capability, look at something with a bright red-dot. There are a few options out there now.
What you described was my complaint with the pst1-4. It wasnt bright enough to be fast, and the reticle didnt make sense on a 1-4 IMO. Ymmv.
We don't run the scope for close up at all, so there's nothing wrong it in its current use. I just gave it a try to see if it was practical for close up stuff.
ruckusjuice
09-24-18, 11:31
I revisited the LVPO yesterday, and I officially hate it. I was on the fence until I gave it a whirl in the context of this thread. I don't know if these things come FFP, but the scope I tried shrinks the reticle down so far when dialed down, it's worthless for speed. You basically have a ghost ring with some lint in the middle of your sight picture.
At distance, it's a decent scope. But dialed down, it's a gargantuan ghost ring.
The new Nightforce 1-8s are FFP scopes. The NX8 is in the same price range as the Khales and the ATACR is somewhere in the $2800 range.
The Steiner P4Xi has a heavy reticle at all settings, with a daylight bright dot. Not a tiny lint reticle. That makes up two of the five reasons I chose it.
We don't run the scope for close up at all, so there's nothing wrong it in its current use. I just gave it a try to see if it was practical for close up stuff.
So you’re trying to fit your size 10.5 foot into a size 8 shoe and then complain that it doesn’t fit?
You didn’t mention what LPVO you tried, so I am assuming a bit here, but I would reserve judgement until you can try one purpose built to compete with a RDS on the low end. IE, PROPER reticle design.
Doc Safari
09-25-18, 09:16
You didn’t mention what LPVO you tried, so I am assuming a bit here, but I would reserve judgement until you can try one purpose built to compete with a RDS on the low end. IE, PROPER reticle design.
Could you give some examples of LPVO's "purpose built" to compete with a RDS?
I'm assuming the Trijicon TR24 with triangle reticle might be one, but is that it?
P2Vaircrewman
09-25-18, 09:29
I have an Ainpoint Pro and a Burris 1-4 Mtac. I have astigmatism and I also wear a close vision lens in my right eye to be able to see my pistol sights. With the Aimpoint anything beyond 100 yards is a problem to see clearly with the close vision lens. With the LPVO either on 1 or 4 everything is sharp at any distance. The Burris is SFP so reticle size does not change. My only gripe is weight with the LPVO.
So you’re trying to fit your size 10.5 foot into a size 8 shoe and then complain that it doesn’t fit?
You didn’t mention what LPVO you tried, so I am assuming a bit here, but I would reserve judgement until you can try one purpose built to compete with a RDS on the low end. IE, PROPER reticle design.
That is my shoe size. I don't really care one way or another. I like the scope... I forget what it is off the top of my head. (I have zero passion for glass.. as long as it has a big "NF" on the knob, I'm fine.
I don't want to pour over technical B.S.) This thing doesn't happen to be Nightforce, but I do like it for distance shooting.
Quality LPVOs in solid mounts are durable to durable enough for rigorous professional use. They bring many of the benefits of bigger glass on precision guns to more typical fighting carbines. Not all, and the envelope is narrower, but many. Most shooters will see more, see farther, hit easier, more precisely, and make better shooting decisions.
True 1x is nice, but not essential. Some sort of illum on the reticle is much more important.
There are carbine classes designed around fighting carbines with LPVOs working at contact to 300-600yd distances. Those using the optics should take them.
redpillregret
09-25-18, 10:40
I took a KD4 scopes rifle class last year. It was eye opening how much more precise and even as fast/faster one can be at 25 yards and in with a variable. Meanwhile, smacking 4 and 6” plates at extended ranges didn’t out of the realm of possibility.
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Doc Safari
09-25-18, 10:48
You guys make a compelling case that the LPVO is the ultimate in carbine optics, but I have one beef: I have NEVER found one to be as fast in target acquisition or as forgiving of head position as an RDS or reflex sight. And I have tried at least 3-4 different LPVO's for comparison. I have NOT tried a Trijicon TR24 just because I've never had the chance to check one out in person.
If you can show me one that is as quick to deploy and as forgiving of slop in technique as an RDS and I'll plunk down the money to buy that optic.
redpillregret
09-25-18, 10:50
Doc, that’s where training comes in. Much like the RDS on a pistol...there is a learning curve.
The fastest I’ve tried were the Razor and the TR24. The TR24 is far lighter, but I’m not sure it’s as robust. Both mine are still ticking fine though.
I’ve spent quite a bit of time with the Leupolds including the Mark 6, Vortex Razor and the PST, K-Dot, Short Dot, Steiner, Swarovski, NF, various Trijicons, etc.
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Doc Safari
09-25-18, 10:59
Doc, that’s where training comes in. Much like the RDS on a pistol...there is a learning curve.
Peachy. I don't want an RDS on a pistol just for that reason.
Not to go off on a tangent, but isn't the purpose of optics to simplify and speed up the aiming process?
Are we beginning to put the cart before the horse by making ourselves learn new ways of shooting just so we have an excuse to always use an optic or type of optic?
redpillregret
09-25-18, 11:00
Too lazy to work through it? Or stuck in your ways? As they say, no pain, no gain.
There is no easy button in life.
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Doc Safari
09-25-18, 11:03
Too lazy to work through it? Or stuck in your ways? As they say, no pain, no gain.
There is no easy button in life.
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The actual issue is time away from the ranch and money for ammo. I'm good at using RDS, reflex sights, and irons. The amount of range time (at a crowded range where you may wait more than an hour to even shoot), and the money in ammo to "learn something new", not to mention the cost of switching optics--again--all add up to "I don't see the long-term gain" over what I use now.
(Just cuz I'm here a lot during the week doesn't mean I'm not doing ranch stuff, too).
redpillregret
09-25-18, 11:08
Much of it, both the pistol and the rifle, can be done through dry fire.
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My experience with LPVO's is the Steiner P4xi, Meopta ZD (1-4) and the Trijicon TR24 .
The Meopta has an extremely bright illuminated reticle and the Trijicon's FO/Tritium are bright as well. Both the Meopta and Trijicon have good, not great, glass.
The Steiner is decent glass and a good scope at its price point. It rides on a carbine as a "truck gun".
I compared my speed of target engagement with the Meopta and Trijicon to an MRO at 50 yds and in- to 7 yds.
At virtual contact distance the MRO was 5% quicker. That narrowed and disappeared as distance increased. Obviously, precision/distance targets were much more efficient and easier with the LPVO's for me. This is subjective and statistically irrelevant, but is my experience.
I am a fan of the LPVO on a carbine. That said, I have carbines with RD's that I use frequently, guess it's different tools for different jobs.
Granted, one doesn't always know ahead of time what the "game" is going to be.
When they develop a LPVO that weighs <8 oz. and will hold up to "real world" abuse, I'll using nothing else.
The only place I feel like you really need to train with it is support side and unconventional shooting positions, but those typically take more practice anyways. I didn’t notice any significant issues when I switched from my EXPS-3 to the LPVO, and I’m only using a P4Xi. I think the Razor may be the king of 1x so I can’t imagine it’d take that much practice for most people to get used to.
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Peachy. I don't want an RDS on a pistol just for that reason.
Not to go off on a tangent, but isn't the purpose of optics to simplify and speed up the aiming process?
Are we beginning to put the cart before the horse by making ourselves learn new ways of shooting just so we have an excuse to always use an optic or type of optic?
Did you make her transition from irons to red dot on a rifle with much fuss?
Peachy. I don't want an RDS on a pistol just for that reason.
Not to go off on a tangent, but isn't the purpose of optics to simplify and speed up the aiming process?
Are we beginning to put the cart before the horse by making ourselves learn new ways of shooting just so we have an excuse to always use an optic or type of optic?
I would argue that a LPVO does exactly that, when some distance is in the equation. The red dot portion of it doesn't loose much time at all, and a magnified optic definitely 'simplifies and speeds up the aiming process' at distances past 25 yards IMO. I make much more accurate hits on target faster with a LPVO on anything past 25 yards, and I don't think I'm any slower than my red dots at close range on 1x. But, at the end of the day, use what you feel comfortable with.
I had my departments quarterly rifle training yesterday and was put on the clock with my Steiner P4Xi. My rifle is a Colt 6920.
Distance was 10 yards, Target was an anatomy target like the VTAC and the actual target for the drill was the brain box triangle consisting of the eye sockets and the nasal cavity. My fastest time from low ready (true low ready, not muzzle pointed 15 degrees down) to shot was 1.17. Longest was just under 1.4. If the target was just center mass I could easily be under 1 second. Im SLIGHTLY faster with an Aimpoint or EOTech out to around 25 yards. Past that its a wash with me being more accurate with the LPVO on 2-3 power. Past 50 yards Im faster with the LPVO.
I had my departments quarterly rifle training yesterday and was put on the clock with my Steiner P4Xi. My rifle is a Colt 6920.
Distance was 10 yards, Target was an anatomy target like the VTAC and the actual target for the drill was the brain box triangle consisting of the eye sockets and the nasal cavity. My fastest time from low ready (true low ready, not muzzle pointed 15 degrees down) to shot was 1.17. Longest was just under 1.4. If the target was just center mass I could easily be under 1 second. Im SLIGHTLY faster with an Aimpoint or EOTech out to around 25 yards. Past that its a wash with me being more accurate with the LPVO on 2-3 power. Past 50 yards Im faster with the LPVO.
Doing my homework on the Steiner P4Xi. How do you like it?
Mace
I put a Steiner P4xi on my Mid-length last winter and shot with it quite a bit up until about early summer. Overall it's probably my most capable "all around" AR that I have.....but since probably June it's barely left the safe. There's a lot of merit to the setup but it's heavier and I find it noticeably more clunky to carry and use than my other ARs and while I've had some pretty decent results with accuracy at 100 yards (which is as far as my range goes) I didn't quite warm to it at close range on 1x.... for me it's usable at close range but not as good as a red dot. It *feels* slower. This isn't a *huge* deal for me, because my whole reasoning for getting an LPVO was that I wanted an AR with a magnified optic that could also be used at close range in a pinch rather than the reverse. But most of the time I find myself wanting a lighter, more maneuverable gun, especially because they spend a lot of time in a vehicle. Justified or not I'm also more concerned about the Steiner losing zero from knocking into things while in my Jeep, than I am with this happening with my other ARs, which have iron sights or optics that are perhaps a bit better suited to taking a beating.
As far as the Steiner itself goes, the adjustments are not particularly audible or tactile in my opinion, but that's a minor issue because once you have it dialed in you are unlikely to mess with the knobs again anyway.
On a more subjective note, I don't particularly care for the P3TR reticle it uses, mostly because I'd prefer it without the top vertical crosshair.
With the illumination on, my eyes also perceive the dot as being minutely uneven/off center, however I'm not sure if that's a QC thing with the scope or it's just my eyes because In dim light I also perceive Aimpoint dots as asymmetrical blobs as well.
Doing my homework on the Steiner P4Xi. How do you like it?
Mace
I like it a lot. It's been on my duty gun for about a year now. Hasn't lost zero. Eye box is very forgiving. I havent had issues with it on barricades, ports, and under cars. It's no Aimpoint/EOTech for that work but I was surprised at how easy it actually was. I think it's the best LPVO in the sub 1000 dollar range that I've messed with. Not as good as a Razor but it's about half the price. The Leupolds are doing well at work too. They are also very nice but only go down to 1.25 power while the Steiner goes down to like 1.1 power. Not a huge difference but I found the the Steiner easier to use while moving and transitioning targets up close because of it.
Bam!
I'm getting one!
Mace
Bam!
I'm getting one!
Mace
Its also easily daylight bright on max power. I have no problem using the dot here in the Az sun. Just an FYI, the battery that came with it sucked. But it's a cheap and easily found coin type battery. CR2021 I believe.
I just skimmed through this thread so if this has been mentioned I apologize.
Didn't the Navy SEALs have pretty good luck with their Recce Rifles? It had a LPVO and a 14.5" barrel.
NYH1.
I like it a lot. It's been on my duty gun for about a year now. Hasn't lost zero. Eye box is very forgiving. I havent had issues with it on barricades, ports, and under cars. It's no Aimpoint/EOTech for that work but I was surprised at how easy it actually was. I think it's the best LPVO in the sub 1000 dollar range that I've messed with. Not as good as a Razor but it's about half the price. The Leupolds are doing well at work too. They are also very nice but only go down to 1.25 power while the Steiner goes down to like 1.1 power. Not a huge difference but I found the the Steiner easier to use while moving and transitioning targets up close because of it.
It’s often less than half of the razor. Typically you can find them around $450 whereas the Razors are still over $1k, unless you’re counting the non-E models that people are really starting to clear out. I’d agree that it’s up there for best scope under that price point, though I would be curious to see how it matched the Gen II Vipers.
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On a more subjective note, I don't particularly care for the P3TR reticle it uses, mostly because I'd prefer it without the top vertical crosshair.
Same here and have the same opinion on the top vertical line on Leupold VXR SPR and circle reticle. Thick enough to cover plates up.
redpillregret
09-26-18, 14:11
For anybody interested, I believe Euro has a sale on Razors right now in the two MOA variants.
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The actual issue is time away from the ranch and money for ammo. I'm good at using RDS, reflex sights, and irons. The amount of range time (at a crowded range where you may wait more than an hour to even shoot), and the money in ammo to "learn something new", not to mention the cost of switching optics--again--all add up to "I don't see the long-term gain" over what I use now.
(Just cuz I'm here a lot during the week doesn't mean I'm not doing ranch stuff, too).
I just ass-u-med from the posts mentioning your ranch that you shot at home. Por que?
Doc Safari
09-26-18, 14:25
I just ass-u-med from the posts mentioning your ranch that you shot at home. Por que?
Oh, no. No backstop at home. Just open range.
For me “almost as fast as a RDS” inside of 25 isn’t the biggest problem with LPVO. It’s the inability to leave the reticle illuminated for several months. That’s why when I eventually get a decent scope it’ll go on the spare rifle for distance/range work or even hunting, but it’ll never be on my HD rifle and maybe not even on a SHTF rifle until 30k battery life scopes are commonly available.
I realize that’s an insane expectation in late 2018, but maybe it’ll be a reality in 2025?
Doc Safari
09-26-18, 17:12
Did you make her transition from irons to red dot on a rifle with much fuss?
She actually won't use anything but a red dot or reflex sight. Never actually got her train with irons.
redpillregret
09-26-18, 17:14
For me “almost as fast as a RDS” inside of 25 isn’t the biggest problem with LPVO. It’s the inability to leave the reticle illuminated for several months. That’s why when I eventually get a decent scope it’ll go on the spare rifle for distance/range work or even hunting, but it’ll never be on my HD rifle and maybe not even on a SHTF rifle until 30k battery life scopes are commonly available.
I realize that’s an insane expectation in late 2018, but maybe it’ll be a reality in 2025?
You’re the kind of dude that would benefit from the TR24
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For me “almost as fast as a RDS” inside of 25 isn’t the biggest problem with LPVO. It’s the inability to leave the reticle illuminated for several months. That’s why when I eventually get a decent scope it’ll go on the spare rifle for distance/range work or even hunting, but it’ll never be on my HD rifle and maybe not even on a SHTF rifle until 30k battery life scopes are commonly available.
I realize that’s an insane expectation in late 2018, but maybe it’ll be a reality in 2025?
You could always get quick detachable mounts for your RDS and scope so you can swap them back and forth as needed/wanted.
NYH1.
You’re the kind of dude that would benefit from the TR24
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Never tried it, but the consistent criticism I see of dual illuminated optics is that they don’t do well when you’re shooting from dark onto a bright area. Not sure if that’s exaggerated or not.
You could always get quick detachable mounts for your RDS and scope so you can swap them back and forth as needed/wanted.
NYH1.
That’s what I’m working towards. I have a T2 in a RTZ mount on my rifle now, and I’ve got a POS Bushnell 1-4x24 in a Bobro mount. I figured I’d buy a good, quality mount first, and for $90 I’d have something I could at least punch paper with when I have the urge. Eventually I’ll have enough in my piggy bank for a Razor or some other hotness, but grad school apps come first.
BrigandTwoFour
09-26-18, 18:46
Never tried it, but the consistent criticism I see of dual illuminated optics is that they don’t do well when you’re shooting from dark onto a bright area. Not sure if that’s exaggerated or not.
That’s what I’m working towards. I have a T2 in a RTZ mount on my rifle now, and I’ve got a POS Bushnell 1-4x24 in a Bobro mount. I figured I’d buy a good, quality mount first, and for $90 I’d have something I could at least punch paper with when I have the urge. Eventually I’ll have enough in my piggy bank for a Razor or some other hotness, but grad school apps come first.
Long-time user of the TR24 here. Though I use it less now than my *gasp* ACOG and fixed 4x Elcan.
The illumination issues with shooting from a dark room to a bright area are true, but you still have a big bold black reticle. So it's a little overblown.
It's also a matter of how you plan on using. The TR is great at the things you expect a general purpose carbine to do outdoors. If you are focusing only on the indoors/close quarters requirements, then a RDS still makes the most sense.
That’s what I’m working towards. I have a T2 in a RTZ mount on my rifle now, and I’ve got a POS Bushnell 1-4x24 in a Bobro mount. I figured I’d buy a good, quality mount first, and for $90 I’d have something I could at least punch paper with when I have the urge. Eventually I’ll have enough in my piggy bank for a Razor or some other hotness, but grad school apps come first.
Sounds like a plan. ;)
NYH1.
For me “almost as fast as a RDS” inside of 25 isn’t the biggest problem with LPVO. It’s the inability to leave the reticle illuminated for several months. That’s why when I eventually get a decent scope it’ll go on the spare rifle for distance/range work or even hunting, but it’ll never be on my HD rifle and maybe not even on a SHTF rifle until 30k battery life scopes are commonly available.
I realize that’s an insane expectation in late 2018, but maybe it’ll be a reality in 2025?
IMO they’re almost superior. When the dot dies, that’s it. The scope will always still have the reticle.
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IMO they’re almost superior. When the dot dies, that’s it. The scope will always still have the reticle.
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I came here to respond to MWAG19919 and saw Wake's reply which was going to be the same thing. When the battery in your RDS you're left with a hollow ring. Obviously proper preventive maintenance generally prevents that but what if you get a fault battery or something. At least I have the black reticle to use on the LPVO and those lines sure to POP in a house under a WML.
redpillregret
09-26-18, 19:49
The TR24 reticle works great, even without illumination—-a nice bold line with the triangle. It works great in transitional lighting as well.
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You’re the kind of dude that would benefit from the TR24
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Or vxrpatrol. That was actually a major factor for me(motion sensor).
On the flip side, at house distance, probably not much of an issue. With rds, fixed front solves the issue.
Nocalsocal
09-26-18, 20:54
Or vxrpatrol. That was actually a major factor for me(motion sensor).
On the flip side, at house distance, probably not much of an issue. With rds, fixed front solves the issue.This.
I still have the original battery in my Leupold Patrol. I'll probably have to put a new one in soon just to be safe.
After reading all the posts I feel alot more confident in using a LPVO from a respected brand. For me and my intended use the scope seems to provide alot more pros than cons.
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im sticking with an all American line-up, Trijicon ACOG RMR and MRO...
For me “almost as fast as a RDS” inside of 25 isn’t the biggest problem with LPVO. It’s the inability to leave the reticle illuminated for several months. That’s why when I eventually get a decent scope it’ll go on the spare rifle for distance/range work or even hunting, but it’ll never be on my HD rifle and maybe not even on a SHTF rifle until 30k battery life scopes are commonly available.
I realize that’s an insane expectation in late 2018, but maybe it’ll be a reality in 2025?
To each his own, but I don't see that as any kind of a serious issue. Maybe a 'nice to have', but hardly an issue. Most good optics have an off mode between brightness settings, so literally all it takes is a single click to turn on the daylight bright illumination while you're picking up the gun, and that takes maybe a second. My LPVO illumination is easier to turn on than the Eotechs I have.
Don't get me wrong, I have an Aimpoint that stays on all the time with it's 50,000 hr batter life, and its really nice, but I can hardly think of any scenario where I am going to grab a rifle and won't have one second to turn on the illumination as I'm bringing the gun into a ready position. And on the flip side, unlike a red dot that relies on battery power to work, the LPVO has an etched reticle so you ALWAYS have an aiming point if the electronics don't work.
Again, to each their own, but I don't see having to turn on the illumination as an issue
Doc Safari
09-27-18, 13:06
The TR24 reticle works great, even without illumination...
Doesn't the TR24 have a fiber optic? Wouldn't that mean it would never be without illumination in the daytime? The Tritium is only useful at night. I'm not sure how much 4-power shooting anyone is going to do at night. Point being: Even when the Tritium dies it is indeed still useful, but the fiber optic would make it so you never miss the dead Tritium unless you're firing at night.
^^It does, yes.
I use the green triangle with “tip” dialed for 200 yds. It is capable of reasonably precise work- head shots at 200 certainly.
The entire triangle is large (6/8 MOA- don’t remember) and is extremely fast for close work on 1X.
redpillregret
09-27-18, 14:28
The TR24 is almost too bright!
Even at night, the fiber picks up ambient light and has a good glow. The reticle itself provides a good contrast when using a flashlight.
The triangle is just shy of 1 mil. I also zero it at 200. Knowing the triangle is a mil, I can cover the target at 300 and top the target at 400 and make consistent hits with mine.
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TexasAggie2005
09-27-18, 15:13
I have the TR25 (1-6) with a green triangle, and it is nuclear during bright sunlight. So bright I usually close the fiber oreo about 3/4 closed if shooting in direct sun. At nighttime, the fiber will pick-up my weaponlight and is usable. Or I just use the black reticle in the light of my weaponlight.
At my skill level on 1x, I can run it just as fast as a RDS. With a 100yd zero on the tip, at 6x, my 75gr TAP T2 are hitting at the bottom of the triangle right at 250yds. The furtherest shot from my apt or on family property is ~300yds, so this all works very, very well for me. YMMV.
Here are a couple of pictures from my front door, to a townhouse right at 130yds away. Fiber oreo is fully open, in indirect sunlight on a partially cloudy day.
https://imgur.com/w0p8gdh.jpg
https://imgur.com/DsNlrA2.jpg
Doc Safari
09-27-18, 15:16
I have the TR25 (1-6) with a green triangle, and it is nuclear during bright sunlight. So bright I usually close the fiber oreo about 3/4 closed if shooting in direct sun. At nighttime, the fiber will pick-up my weaponlight and is usable. Or I just use the black reticle in the light of my weaponlight.
At my skill level on 1x, I can run it just as fast as a RDS. With a 100yd zero on the tip, at 6x, my 75gr TAP T2 are hitting at the bottom of the triangle right at 250yds. The furtherest shot from my apt or on family property is ~300yds, so this all works very, very well for me. YMMV.
Here are a couple of pictures from my front door, to a townhouse right at 130yds away. Fiber oreo is fully open, in indirect sunlight on a partially cloudy day.
https://imgur.com/w0p8gdh.jpg
https://imgur.com/DsNlrA2.jpg
Those are some fantastic photos, but frankly that green triangle is kind of hard to see. I wonder if the red would be better?
TexasAggie2005
09-27-18, 15:18
Those are some fantastic photos, but frankly that green triangle is kind of hard to see. I wonder if the red would be better?
Those photos were taken with my Google Pixel smartphone. I worked pretty hard to try and get the correct angles and focus. Honestly, I don't think it fully picks up how bright the green is to the human eye. But these were the best photos I could do with my phone and very amateur photographer skills. They are a compromise.
redpillregret
09-27-18, 15:20
Those are some fantastic photos, but frankly that green triangle is kind of hard to see. I wonder if the red would be better?
I own both a red and green. The red seems better to me in daylight. The green seems better at twilight.
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Doc Safari
09-27-18, 15:20
Those photos were taken with my Google Pixel smartphone. I worked pretty hard to try and get the correct angles and focus. Frankly, I don't think it fully picks up how bright the green is to the human eye. But these were the best compromise I could do.
Those photos are great. Best reticle photos I've ever seen. My concern is the triangle appears to be much smaller than the Meprolight or Trijicon reflex triangles. Not saying I couldn't get used to it, but.....
redpillregret
09-27-18, 15:29
I don’t know the size of the reflex triangles you’re speaking of but on an RDS people used to bitch at the 4 MOA Aimpoints; requesting something smaller. Is 2 MOA seems to be the standard.
I believe the TR24 reticle is between 3.25-3.6 MOA. I don’t recall. If that’s too small, I’d wager you would find Aimpoint and most other RDS difficult to use.
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TexasAggie2005
09-27-18, 15:30
Those photos are great. Best reticle photos I've ever seen. My concern is the triangle appears to be much smaller than the Meprolight or Trijicon reflex triangles. Not saying I couldn't get used to it, but.....
Thanks!
According to Trijicon, the triangle is 2.8 x 2.8 MOA at 6x. Even at 1x I find it perfectly usable.
Doc Safari
09-27-18, 15:32
I don’t know the size of the reflex triangles you’re speaking of but on an RDS people used to bitch at the 4 MOA Aimpoints; requesting something smaller. Is 2 MOA seems to be the standard.
I believe the TR24 reticle is between 3.25-3.6 MOA. I don’t recall. If that’s too small, I’d wager you would find Aimpoint and most other RDS difficult to use.
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No, the difference is in how the triangle is employed. You want a large reticle because you sight in the tip of the triangle for distance and put the whole thing at center of mass for CQB. IIRC that's how the Israelis sight in the Meprolight M21. Works for me. The reticle never covers the target unless you are at "whites of their eyes" distance.
redpillregret
09-27-18, 15:33
https://www.trijicon.com/resources/downloads/AcPt_Triangle_Reticle_Measurements.pdf
4.2 on the TR24. So just larger than a mil.
Trijicon numbers are on maximum magnification. On 1x, they are larger, relative to the target. Reflex sights don’t have magnification...therefore it’s an apples to oranges comparison.
The Meprolight is 4.3 MOA.
I understand how to use the reticle. The Israelis also carry empty chambers. “How the Israelis do it” is not a good litmus test.
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biohazard1717
09-28-18, 09:46
I’m liking my Steiner P4Xi but that post earlier in the thread mentioning one broke after 400 rounds has me slightly worried now.
I’m liking my Steiner P4Xi but that post earlier in the thread mentioning one broke after 400 rounds has me slightly worried now. I broke a TR24 in short order, but to be fair, a T-1 or T-2 went down about the same time in the same class. Optics break, it happens.
Doc Safari
09-28-18, 10:16
I broke a TR24 in short order, but to be fair, a T-1 or T-2 went down about the same time in the same class. Optics break, it happens.
Interesting. I dropped a mounted TA33 ACOG onto a concrete porch. The optic was attached to an M4 and landed right on the elevation turret (as evidenced by the huge scuff mark on the turret cover after the fall). The ACOG didn't even change zero and has continued to be dead-on to this day. I had always been concerned the TR24 just isn't as robust as an ACOG. To be fair I haven't dropped my Meprolight M21 in the same manner and don't intend to. The M21, however, is a $400 optic and the TR24 is a lot more expensive.
TexasAggie2005
09-28-18, 10:49
Optics break, it happens.
Exactly. No such thing as an unbreakable, bombproof optic. They all fail.
I broke a TA31 ACOG without even dropping it. It just had a wandering zero one day. Sent it back to Trijicon and they fixed it. To this day I have no idea what happened. It happens.
No one questions the ruggedness of an ACOG but no one questions the ruggedness of an 03-A3 either. The era of the fixed power scope has passed. It's been surpassed by the variable scope. Someday the optical sight will be surpassed by electronic imaging sights when the technology has advanced to the point they are rugged, light and cheap. We'll be grumbling why optical sights are still viable although everyone now has a TV atop their M4s.
Ha, well said.
I'm one of those with astigmatism that makes RDS like Aimpoints problematic. I can do ok with an EoTech type reticle because the outer ring and hash marks allow me to accurately sight in on the center dot. Over time I've come to prefer an etched reticle more and more though. There's not much to pick from for 1x optics with an etched reticle so I started looking at LPVOs. So far I've only tried out the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4, Vortex Razor 1-6 and Trijicon Accupower 1-8. I didn't like the Accupoint reticle, but I like the others. I'm sold on the concept and I shoot better, even at 1x, with a LPVO than I do with an Aimpoint. I plan to upgrade my Accupower to the ATACR and move the Accupower to a backup rifle. I'm also looking for something for an SBR but haven't decided exactly what yet.
If the rifle isn't for hunting, (I can see the useless of an LVPO for that use.), I can't see the benefit in putting a 8 inch to a foot long tube on my rifle for defensive use as a non-military civilian. Most combat or defensive situations are at ranges less than 100 yards and 100 yards is a stretch as well.
1. It's heaver and more cumbersome compared to a compact red dot.
2. You can't leave it on unless you get a tritium one.
3. If you don't have a tritium one, it takes an extra step to get your rifle into action. Safety off and optic on rather than just safety off. The potential to forget and leave it on by accident and try to turn it back on when dead is also an issue. Also the potential to totally forget to turn it on is there too.
4. 1x isn't truly 1x on most scopes. Some are very close but a true 1x will always be faster no matter how much you've trained to get through it.
5. It has eye relief issues compared to a red dot. A red dot has almost none and is more forgiving when used in awkward fighting positions.
6. If the optic goes down, there are fewer steps to use back up iron sights with a red dot compared to a foot long scope.
So basically, it all boils down to what your likely distances you'll be shooting at. Sure a scope is more versatile. But that versatility comes at a price of some negatives unless your shots are all past 100 yards than the negatives wouldn't likely be negatives. If the majority of your shots are less than 100, than those negatives can affect you and you are putting up with those negatives for the unlikely shot past 100 yards.
redpillregret
09-30-18, 13:40
If you can’t see a need, you must have good eyes. I’m jealous. If you have a SFP 1-Xx scope, you don’t need to turn it on. The need for illumination is often over-stated. That’s one of the beautiful things about the system, no need for batteries.
Aimpoints and Eotechs are useless without batteries. If my Razor dies, I can still rock it. You say you keep your batteries changed, have you had a defective battery?
I had an RMR battery die in about two weeks not too long ago. I had the same battery in my M68 from 2006 until 2014. I changed it in 2014 and put the thing at standby. I decided to run through the old magazine and train with it about four months later. It was dead as a door nail.
The LPVOs are not likely to go down if you buy quality. If you’re concerned, offset irons are a thing. As are offset RMRs.
Most guys that complain about needing “true 1x” probably haven’t trained much with a LPVO. You really don’t need it. As far as eye boxes being less forgiving, it’s true, but at house ranges, it’s not that big of a deal and quickly goes away with training.
Depending on choices, you can buy the lighter options. Aero or NF UL mounts are very light. I think my TR24s weigh around 12 oz. My old M68 with mount I want to say is around 10 oz. If a few ounces hurts, I don’t know what to say. But they are hardly “cumbersome”. If so, go shorter on your barrel——If you’re not shooting past 100 yards I can think of no reason to own anything but an 11.5” or 12.5”.
If you can’t see the need to shoot past 100 yards, because it’s a low probability, you don’t need a gun for defensive purposes—-it’s a low probability you’ll use an AR in self-defense to be honest. I believe there was a Texan about a year ago that used an AR in the defense of others at over 100 yards. I can think of lots of scenarios where I’m shooting past 100, especially if things go sideways.
I use them for ranch defense, predator control, hunting, and general use. I keep a like AR in my home with an Aimpoint (with irons!)
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Exactly. No such thing as an unbreakable, bombproof optic. They all fail.
As do weapons, magazines, ammunition.
As do weapons, magazines, ammunition.
I've never had an aimpoint die due to a defective battery. Ever. It's always on. Never goes off. And if it did, the iron sights work right through it.
I've never had an aimpoint die due to a defective battery. Ever. It's always on. Never goes off. And if it did, the iron sights work right through it.
This X1000 and why I prefer standing sights in front and behind my aimpoints which are mounted in a lower 1/3 mount, no need to flip anything up, irons are always there in case the optic fails and they don't interfere with red dot sight picture. It would be nice to have a good LPVO but as a civillian it's really just a luxury more than anything else. An Aimpoint on the other hand I would say is a necessity.
redpillregret
09-30-18, 15:42
I've never had an aimpoint die due to a defective battery. Ever. It's always on. Never goes off. And if it did, the iron sights work right through it.
I’ve never had to defend myself with an AR15. Ever.
But...
I will stack the deck in my favor.
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I’ve had an Aimpoint die twice.
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I've never had an aimpoint die due to a defective battery. Ever. It's always on. Never goes off. And if it did, the iron sights work right through it.
If my Vortex battery dies I still have the reticle.
We are all obviously splitting hairs - I have 3 rifles with Aimpoints as well. Aimpoints are a tad faster / easier up close & odd positions, LPVO dominates past 25, especially when you are shooting at something real and not a well defined paper or steel target.
They each have their attributes, failure to acknowledge either is ignorance.
Don't Tread On Me
09-30-18, 19:45
I’ve had an Aimpoint die twice.
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As in dead battery or complete optic failure?
As in dead battery or complete optic failure?
Battery, so no real fault to the optic. Same effect though, just easier solution. The point is that when an RDS stops working, its completely ****ing useless. And they do stop working.
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redpillregret
09-30-18, 19:59
Battery, so no real fault to the optic. Same effect though, just easier solution. The point is that when an RDS stops working, its completely ****ing useless. And they do stop working.
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Exactly. You’re at the mercy of the battery and must use irons. With a variable, the reticle still works.
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Exactly. You’re at the mercy of the battery and must use irons. With a variable, the reticle still works.
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Not in low light they don't. Irons still work in low light.
That's operator error for not changing 5 year batteries every 2 years by the way.
I change my batteries once a year. I just pull the ridiculous number of AR's out and change each one annually and hope one never shit cans. If it does and Im in a QBC situation, I will hold dead center of RDS and squeeze.
And Im not shooting 200 yards in my house so I expect Ill be good. YMMV
PB
Not in low light they don't. Irons still work in low light.
That's operator error for not changing 5 year batteries every 2 years by the way.
If you can see irons, you can see a reticle - IME.
Agree on the battery change, though batteries can fail unexpectedly, just like optics, firearms, ammunition, and everything else.
I change my batteries once a year. I just pull the ridiculous number of AR's out and change each one annually and hope one never shit cans. If it does and Im in a QBC situation, I will hold dead center of RDS and squeeze.
And Im not shooting 200 yards in my house so I expect Ill be good. YMMV
PB
Pretty much.
vicious_cb
09-30-18, 22:45
Thats why I stress test my batteries when I put fresh ones in. When new batteries go in I crank the brightness to max and leave it on for a day. If the battery survives its GTG.
redpillregret
09-30-18, 23:31
Not in low light they don't. Irons still work in low light.
That's operator error for not changing 5 year batteries every 2 years by the way.
Actually, yeah. It works as good as if not better than irons.
And it’s not operator error when batteries don’t last. They are defective. I’ve had RMR batteries die much sooner, as well. I’ve gotten to where I change RMR batteries every six months and check them daily.
Ironically, my M68 was dead again tonight...the thread had me thinking. And it’s been less than two years. [emoji6]. Third battery change since 2014.
Here’s a Tritium TR24 with the filter closed. Just to add to the discussion.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181001/2d980086c90bd475f51060e4a0e553a2.jpg
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Not in low light they don't. Irons still work in low light.
That's operator error for not changing 5 year batteries every 2 years by the way.
The battery died in less than a year, twice. The reticles work fine in low light, many of them better than irons.
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Hammertime
10-01-18, 09:53
A small(er) scope, say 1-8x or 2-10x or less - I get. Or maybe a high dollar LR scope on a 20 or 24" barrel. But a 5-25x56 on a 16" gun? Hell to the naw naw.
The ACOG has been getting done for decades now on man-sized targets in a variety of theatres. There are lots of great choices for a fighting gun. Choose accordingly, but don't go overload / full retard. Thanks.
YMMV
HT
Irons don't work in low light unless you have a big white light mounted.
Don't Tread On Me
10-01-18, 10:03
Or... a tritium front sight.
I think low light and total darkness are two different things. By low light I mean almost totally dark but with enough ambient light that you can see shapes and shadows. In low light, you can see the outline of iron sights. I don't have much experience with scopes but I would guess it would be harder to see a black etched reticle. Maybe I'm wrong.
redpillregret
10-01-18, 10:49
I think low light and total darkness are two different things. By low light I mean almost totally dark but with enough ambient light that you can see shapes and shadows. In low light, you can see the outline of iron sights. I don't have much experience with scopes but I would guess it would be harder to see a black etched reticle. Maybe I'm wrong.
You’d be surprised. Often through a quality scope, it is brighter than with the naked eye.
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Irons don't work in low light unless you have a big white light mounted.
Who wouldn't have a white light mounted on a serious use rifle?😆
backpacker
08-23-19, 15:46
I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I'm not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
God help us if the average police officer is going to be running into a walmart in full gear and then make a standing 300 yard shot with his AR.
Most people don't shoot past 100 yards ever, officers don't even shoot their ARs in the academy past 100 yards. Love all these dudes who shoot at 50 yards and then think they are magically going to make a 300 yard head shot. Even if you have a 1 MOA AR with good ammo, from a bench, you're looking at a 3 inch group at 300 yards. You think an officer with an LPVO at 6x who does almost no training should be taking 300 yard head shots?
Come on guys, I like LPVs but 90% of these scenarios I read online are ridiculous.
LPVOs awesome for LE for PID and yeah they are a jack of all trades for someone who isnt hiking far with their gear.
Aimpoint for home defense, for 99.99% of people.
ACOG for hiking around. They are light, perfect magnification, good glass, cheaper than most quality LPVs. I have lots of optics but find myself grabbing an ACOG when heading out into the desert. I can blast a rabbit at 10 yards and I can see far out. LPVs are heavy and a pain when using in a buggy or vehicle. Aimpoints and ACOGs are hard to beat.
I really hate how people use the military as their justification also. These dudes overseas using LPVs are in a completely different situation than anyone at home. At home even as an officer you are accountable for the rounds you fire, in a way that people overseas are not.
LPVO is the future. The other stuff is nice as a toy or if its all you can afford but LPVOs have gotten lighter and more forgiving
LPVO is the future. The other stuff is nice as a toy or if its all you can afford but LPVOs have gotten lighter and more forgivingI'm still waiting for something lighter than my old NF NSX 1-4...
Everything else may be getting thinner and lighter but good glass remains big and heavy.
Dennis.
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Eurodriver
08-23-19, 18:22
God help us if the average police officer is going to be running into a walmart in full gear and then make a standing 300 yard shot with his AR.
Most people don't shoot past 100 yards ever, officers don't even shoot their ARs in the academy past 100 yards. Love all these dudes who shoot at 50 yards and then think they are magically going to make a 300 yard head shot. Even if you have a 1 MOA AR with good ammo, from a bench, you're looking at a 3 inch group at 300 yards. You think an officer with an LPVO at 6x who does almost no training should be taking 300 yard head shots?
Come on guys, I like LPVs but 90% of these scenarios I read online are ridiculous.
LPVOs awesome for LE for PID and yeah they are a jack of all trades for someone who isnt hiking far with their gear.
Aimpoint for home defense, for 99.99% of people.
ACOG for hiking around. They are light, perfect magnification, good glass, cheaper than most quality LPVs. I have lots of optics but find myself grabbing an ACOG when heading out into the desert. I can blast a rabbit at 10 yards and I can see far out. LPVs are heavy and a pain when using in a buggy or vehicle. Aimpoints and ACOGs are hard to beat.
I really hate how people use the military as their justification also. These dudes overseas using LPVs are in a completely different situation than anyone at home. At home even as an officer you are accountable for the rounds you fire, in a way that people overseas are not.
This is fax.
6 years after I got rid of my broken TR24, I tried LPVO again. This time with a Steiner p4xi... It made it a week and two trips to the range. It now sits on my wife's bench shooting range toy. I'm no wimp, but packing that extra weight around compared to my not-so-light Aimpoint Pro sent me right back to a red dot on my self defense rifle.
6 years after I got rid of my broken TR24, I tried LPVO again. This time with a Steiner p4xi... It made it a week and two trips to the range. It now sits on my wife's bench shooting range toy. I'm no wimp, but packing that extra weight around compared to my not-so-light Aimpoint Pro sent me right back to a red dot on my self defense rifle.
Just out of curiosity, what do you do at the range?
Just out of curiosity, what do you do at the range?
Redback One carbine shooting standard several times to try and get the feel for it. I can shoot the Steiner pretty well on 1x using the red dot with both eyes open, but I wasn't any faster or more accurate as a lighter weight RDS sight.
Ran three VTAC 9 hole drills with the VTAC barrier.. way easier to do with the Aimpoint Pro.
Shot standing, kneeling and prone at 50 and 100 yds. For quick shots using 1x there really wasn't much difference in accuracy either. For slow fire, the LPVO cranked up to 4 was the only place the LPVO shined.
6 years after I got rid of my broken TR24, I tried LPVO again. This time with a Steiner p4xi... It made it a week and two trips to the range. It now sits on my wife's bench shooting range toy. I'm no wimp, but packing that extra weight around compared to my not-so-light Aimpoint Pro sent me right back to a red dot on my self defense rifle.
I still use a vxr patrol. Its still 1/4lb lighter than anything (lpvo) on the market.
I just spent a few days going over all the new options and ended up figuring an aimpoint/eotech and a 2-12 in qd mounts is the only other thing Id buy right now.
I ended up taking my Steiner P4Xi off my midlength several months ago and it's currently not being used. I couldn't get past what I felt was the very clunky handling of the overall rifle/optic setup. (I also don't like the P4Xi reticle, but that's another issue)
That being said, the gun I had the Steiner mounted on was probably not a good fit for it in the first place and I'll eventually try the Steiner again (despite my dislike for the reticle, because there's nothing really "wrong" with it, I just don't care for it) when I have a gun more suited to it, as the LPVO does definitely bring something to the table in terms of capability.
Or who knows, I may end up giving it another chance on the gun it was on previously.
I ended up taking my Steiner P4Xi off my midlength several months ago and it's currently not being used. I couldn't get past what I felt was the very clunky handling of the overall rifle/optic setup. (I also don't like the P4Xi reticle, but that's another issue)
That being said, the gun I had the Steiner mounted on was probably not a good fit for it in the first place and I'll eventually try the Steiner again (despite my dislike for the reticle, because there's nothing really "wrong" with it, I just don't care for it) when I have a gun more suited to it, as the LPVO does definitely bring something to the table in terms of capability.
Or who knows, I may end up giving it another chance on the gun it was on previously.
What do you not like about the reticle?
Five_Point_Five_Six
08-24-19, 09:54
"A man's got to know his limitations"
Whenever the LPVO vs red dot debate comes up, it's always interesting the hear the reasoning behind people's choices.
I'm sitting on my front porch drinking coffee and reading M4C on my laptop. All around my house is thick vegetation and trees. From where I'm sitting, it's 50 yards give or take to the bend in my driveway. On either side of my house I have about 25-35 yards of visibility, and in the back it's about 50 if I'm on the back porch. If I go up to the balcony off the bedroom, I can see a bit further out into the woods but not much. If I walk to the bend in the drive way, I can see another 75 yards. If I walk a little further beyond that, it opens up to farm fields and houses. Since home defense is the primary purpose of my rifles, a red dot is more than adequate for me and the distances that I would need to use a carbine. The likelihood of me having to engage anyone out in the open is pretty slim. If I lived in the southwest or other wide open area, my needs may be different. I do shoot at much further distance at my spot in the woods than I would have to at home and do so with a red dot.
The positive ID thing is kinda funny to me. We harp on people about the 4 rules and not pointing a gun at anything you're not willing to destroy and being aware of your target and what's beyond it, then we tell them to crank up the magnification and point their rifle at something and make sure it's not the neighbor or one of their kids.
I know that there are people who may encounter a scenario where they need to take a 300+ yard shot, but it makes me wonder if that is a practical concern or not for many of the people using it as a reason, especially given the weight penalty of the optic. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with using a LPVO, I'm just not sure that many are being honest with themselves about the reasoning and I wonder how much time they spend shooting at distances greater than 300. Most people I see shooting rifles are shooting at 100 or less. Anyway, just food for thought.
been using acogs since the year they were offered ('91). in past ten years everyone had been pushing lpvo scopes so i tried a few (spending over to $3K on some).
sold them all.
too big, too heavy, too complicated, too many screws in mount/rings to loosen, took up too much rail real estate, never set on magnification i needed when i shouldered the rifle, required i remember to reset ranging & wind dials constantly, first/second plane issues, battery illumination problems (leakage, dead batt, constant brightness adjustments, needing spare battery...), etc
and on top of that i wasn't much more accurate with lvpo on 8x than i was with a 4x32 acog, even at ranges out to 800yds (past that, a high quality lvpo with dials does better), yet i can still handle CQB ranges with them.
so i'm back having all my rifles carry acogs, and my ar pistols have trijicon's dual-illum rmr (w/ folding co-witness buis) - super simple, fast, easy, dependable, proven, and battery-less.
to each their own....
.
What do you not like about the reticle?
Coming off of using an ACSS type reticle, I didn't like the conventional crosshair arrangement of the Steiner. I felt like it obscured too much of the target for my tastes. It's a SFP scope that only goes up to 4x, so even at max magnification the reticle is going to be pretty big in relation to the target if you are trying to hit, say, a 3" bullseye at 100 yds or something. You can still do it, and get good groups doing it, but it felt harder than it should be.
Granted, shooting small groups on small targets at 100 yards us probably not what the scope is really intended for, I'm assuming the P in "P4Xi" stands for "Patrol", but I still found it annoying.
I think I would have preferred if the top vertical crosshair were omitted entirely and instead of the other crosshairs actually intersecting , having a central dot instead or perhaps a chevron.
Not an unusable reticle by any means, I just wasn't thrilled with it. I didn't dislike it enough to get rid of the scope entirely, as like i said, the reasons for my removing were due to the way it affected the handling of the rifle vs any actual issue with the scope's performance.
Ive had my Steiner P4Xi on my patrol rifle now for 2+ years. Rifle is a standard Colt 6920 with a KAC RAS and a Streamlight HLX. I havent had any problems with it since Ive had it on. Roughly 50 hours of on the range training including barricade work, vehicle work, shoot house, etc.... Decent training, not just standard square range up drills.
Last summer I was involved in a shooting with the rifle. Call came out of a guy running around a neighborhood whacked out on meth and pointing a handgun at people. We show up, he jumps in a car, short pursuit happens, and he bails out in a cul de sac. I was riding passenger in the third vehicle in the pursuit with my rifle. As we pull up and I jump out of the truck the guy is standing in the middle of the street about 60-70 yards from me pointing a S&W Sigma at us and screaming nonsense. I raise my rifle, set at 2.5x, and as Im settling my reticle on his chest I see movement behind him. The road curves slightly further down and about 100 yards directly behind the suspect is a mom and dad loading their 3 kids into their car. Literally in the line of fire. I flanked to the right side of the road where I had a couple HD trucks to use as cover and ended up shooting the guy from there. First shot was at a distance of 40 yards, second shot was at a distance of 36 yards.
I did not see that family until I aimed at the guy with the Steiner. The magnification made all the difference. I am slightly slower at close range with a red dot. Past 30 yards or so Im faster and more accurate with the LPVO. Past about 50-75 yards Im faster and significantly more accurate with the LPVO.
As far as patrol officers and longer shots... You cant make a blanket statement about LE training because it varies so much. Phoenix trains out to 300 yards for our patrol rifle program and sometimes even farther. I know AZ DPS has a 300 yards rifle range that they utilize a lot. Phoenix has a 325 yard shot on the books by a patrolman using iron sights.
That was a bit more aggro than intended.
I really don’t care what other people use.
You can still miss me with aimpoint though
One size doesn't fit all.
Assess your needs, assess your equipment, make decisions.
Do you.
Heck, for a few of us, an old 4x20 carry handle scope on a 20-inch A1 rifle is good enough :D
Heck, for a few of us, an old 4x20 carry handle scope on a 20-inch A1 rifle is good enough :D
Part of me thinks this is equally antiquated yet awesome.
Bonus points if its a factory US made Colt scope
Etched reticle never gonna die. Stadia can be used up close and at distance. P4Xi or Viper PST Gen II plus mount are both at the same price or cheaper than most ACOGs, have much better eye relief, and aren’t a stupid fixed power like we’re stuck in the 1990s. I had 2/5 hits at 425 yards the other day. First time shooting that rifle and that ammo, much less together. Also my first time shooting the optic at that distance. Didn’t screw around with iStrelok or anything, just picked a stadia and went for it. It took two rounds to figure out that I was a little high but considering that I could barely see the impact because of the recoil, that’s pretty good IMO seeing as how I can keep up with red dots on the seven yard line.
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Op,
First off, I don’t carry a gun for a living. I don’t carry 80lbs of gear and walk around all day with it. I’m too old and would die in 1/2 an hour.
For my uses and current cash flow, a lpvo is versatile - hunting, range and home.
I’m trying lpvo’s on the two PSA hobby guns I use for both pig hunting and at the range for introducing new people to firearms. 5% hunting vs 95% at range for introducing new people to firearms.
Lpvo chosen over rds since majority of use for the rifle is the range with new shooters
Hunting:
Yes, lpvo’s make the gun feel heavy for hunting during the walk in/out. Handling is not the greatest.
However, relative to the total weight of everything I’m carrying, the extra weight isn’t that much more. And once im sitting in my spot I don’t think the added weight or poorer handling will bother me that much.
For the area I hunt in a rds should be fine since shots should be short but I use the lpvo's. I’m too lazy to swap/re-zero between the rds when I hunt and the lpvo’s when I bring new people to the range.
When I can justify the cost I’ll build a dedicated hunting upper and try just a rds or a lightweight fixed 3x scope
Range with new people:
When shooting paper. I feel the lpvo is better than a rds for a new shooters ego. They can shoot tighter and feel good about themselves and want to come back
Home:
We can use the hobby guns if needed. Lpvo is not as light/handy/easy to acquire target as a rds for home use but way better than my dedicated range gun with a 4-12 x 42 scope
Before anyone jumps on me about the hobby guns, I have kiss bcms for home use
^Mostly this, similar uses here. Don't kick doors for a living. Only have two personal rifles: one setup with an Aimpoint for defensive use, one with a Leupold Mk IV 1.5-5x20, which I guess qualifies as an "LPVO" but has been on this rifle since before I had ever HEARD of LPVO. The Leupold is discontinued and isn't perfect (1.5x, illum is not daylight bright--though the etched glass reticle is good enough for me), but it is rock solid durable, I love the SPR/TMR reticle I can use for ranging and can get consistent hits to 400y and beyond, and it has awesome glass. It lets me make shots that I can't do with my Aimpoint and my aging eyes. :cool:
It's great to have 2 or more rifles, set them up for certain kinds of use, and use the best tool for the job. If I had to only have one rifle, there's no doubt I'd setup with an LPVO, simply because like a multitool, it's not the best at any one thing, but it gives me more capabilities than a specialized optic.
I'm setting a new lighter rifle with a BCM ELW barrel, and will run a new LPVO on it. Very interested in the Leupold VXR Patrol that some said they are running. Also--though I realize it's outdated with the cool kids--I'm kind of interested in the ACOG + red dot idea. The light weight, ruggedness, mechanical simplicity, and appeal of having two optimized sighting solutions on one rifle, is kind of appealing. But I've never run an ACOG, so not familiar with all the limitations. The very limited eye relief sounds like a pain, for instance. Right now the VXR Patrol is the one I'm checking out.
^Mostly this, similar uses here. Don't kick doors for a living. Only have two personal rifles: one setup with an Aimpoint for defensive use, one with a Leupold Mk IV 1.5-5x20, which I guess qualifies as an "LPVO" but has been on this rifle since before I had ever HEARD of LPVO. The Leupold is discontinued and isn't perfect (1.5x, illum is not daylight bright--though the etched glass reticle is good enough for me), but it is rock solid durable, I love the SPR/TMR reticle I can use for ranging and can get consistent hits to 400y and beyond, and it has awesome glass. It lets me make shots that I can't do with my Aimpoint and my aging eyes. :cool:
It's great to have 2 or more rifles, set them up for certain kinds of use, and use the best tool for the job. If I had to only have one rifle, there's no doubt I'd setup with an LPVO, simply because like a multitool, it's not the best at any one thing, but it gives me more capabilities than a specialized optic.
I'm setting a new lighter rifle with a BCM ELW barrel, and will run a new LPVO on it. Very interested in the Leupold VXR Patrol that some said they are running. Also--though I realize it's outdated with the cool kids--I'm kind of interested in the ACOG + red dot idea. The light weight, ruggedness, mechanical simplicity, and appeal of having two optimized sighting solutions on one rifle, is kind of appealing. But I've never run an ACOG, so not familiar with all the limitations. The very limited eye relief sounds like a pain, for instance. Right now the VXR Patrol is the one I'm checking out.
Im still a big ACOG fan. If you go with a 3 or 3.5 power ACOG the eye relief is much better than the 4 power models.
It's great to have 2 or more rifles, set them up for certain kinds of use, and use the best tool for the job. If I had to only have one rifle, there's no doubt I'd setup with an LPVO, simply because like a multitool, it's not the best at any one thing, but it gives me more capabilities than a specialized optic.
Despite my somewhat mixed opinion following my own LPVO experience, I do actually feel like *if* I were limited to only one rifle, I would probably put an LPVO on it and make myself learn to like them more.
That's basically me recognizing the very real advantages they give the user, despite my own personal feelings on the matter.
I'm sure I'll end up giving mine another try.
bamashooter
08-24-19, 15:56
I've bought 3 prisms in the past 18 months or so. a 1x, 2.5x, 3.0x. I really like the etched / illuminated reticle option. I have the 3x on a 9" 300blk. I like it best due to it having a chevron. It was that one which I first "looked at" a close-in target. 5-7 meters and was a bit taken aback. It didn't take any time at all for my eye-to-brain function to easily deal with it. I now just grab it a few times a week to look at stuff 5m + or so. It keeps me from experiencing that giant target in my face syndrome.
I had a 1-4 on a 20" which was a great scope imo. I designated that rifle my long distance shooter and replaced the 1-4 with a 4-12. But I can see where a 1-4 / 1-6, etc would be a good choice for a LEO or civilian for that matter. It's all about the reps.
Marine Corporal
08-24-19, 17:56
For CQB in the home for defense, nothing beats a red dot. While these variable scopes come kind of close, they are still inferior and the weight and length can be an unnecessary hindrance. They are a jack of all trades and masters of none. If one rifle is all you got for home defense and hunting, then I can see their usefulness.
However, I see guys that put one up on all their rifles. Even SBR’s or pistols where the most you will reach out to if ever is about 100 yards. That doesn’t make much sense.
For CQB in the home for defense, nothing beats a red dot. While these variable scopes come kind of close, they are still inferior and the weight and length can be an unnecessary hindrance. They are a jack of all trades and masters of none. If one rifle is all you got for home defense and hunting, then I can see their usefulness.
However, I see guys that put one up on all their rifles. Even SBR’s or pistols where the most you will reach out to if ever is about 100 yards. That doesn’t make much sense.
Define inferior. And there are plenty of people here who shoot short barrels well past 100 yards.
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Exactly... thank you. I have carbines set up with both RDS and LPVO. I like and use both for different reasons. Father Time is a real prick when it comes to the degradation of my low light vision and LPVO has helped me overcome that with the ability to magnify and focus in certain conditions.
End of the day, two shits given if someone else doesn’t like or want to use a LPVO. And I say this as I was one kicking and screaming to avoid it before finally trying it. I’m glad I did.
Define inferior. And there are plenty of people here who shoot short barrels well past 100 yards.
Yup. I shoot my SBRs out to 250-300 yds hitting A-C steel with boring regularity. One of my 11.5” SBRs, gasp, has a LPVO... A Vortex Razor Gen 2-E.
Before life got in the way the past several weeks, I was enjoying my focus on shooting for accuracy and groups at 200 with my SBRs and was quite pleased in the results.
Know your system and ballistics and it’s not a big deal.
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Marine Corporal
08-24-19, 21:46
Define inferior. And there are plenty of people here who shoot short barrels well past 100 yards.
Inferior being that it isn’t as good as a red dot for up close. Sure it can be done almost as well as a red dot but not quite. You need the proper eye relief to even see the dot and the 1x is never a true 1x. It’s always slightly more than 1x and with both eyes open the sight picture becomes slightly distorted to some. Especially for someone who’s left eye dominant but shoots right handed.
I’m not saying it sucks. It doesn’t. It works well but not 100 percent like a red dot will.
Also I’m not saying that people don’t shoot short barrels past 100 yards. Sure at the range or on a hunt but in defense it’s almost never done for the average person. But that’s another topic.
bamashooter
08-25-19, 08:21
In a home defense scenario, weight (which always gets me), length, etc don't matter. 99% of any home invasions, the "enemy" comes to the occupant. It ain't house to house, room to room, etc where weapons are being maneuvered and all that. It's either an "oh poop" sudden face to face moment or like the Oklahoma deal where the kid dusted those 2-3 invaders. And I bet in his situation it was just a point and shoot deal with his AR.
I've bought 3 prisms in the past 18 months or so. a 1x, 2.5x, 3.0x. I really like the etched / illuminated reticle option. I have the 3x on a 9" 300blk. I like it best due to it having a chevron. It was that one which I first "looked at" a close-in target. 5-7 meters and was a bit taken aback. It didn't take any time at all for my eye-to-brain function to easily deal with it. I now just grab it a few times a week to look at stuff 5m + or so. It keeps me from experiencing that giant target in my face syndrome.
.
The gun that I had my LPVO on for a while had previously had a Primary Arms 2.5x prism on it. After removing the LPVO, the gun went through a brief "irons only" stage and now has the 2.5x on it again.
It's not as versatile as an LPVO, and not a good choice for an HD optic, but if used on an "outdoors only" AR a compact low powered fixed magnification optic works pretty well. Although personally I don't think I'd want to go higher than 3x for that. They can be used at close range without too much trouble but they aren't ideal for that.
I've been meaning to experiment with doing the occluded-eye thing with mine at close range but haven't much of that yet.
My positive experiences with the PA 2.5x have made me want to eventually try out something similar in concept but more battle proven - namely an ACOG.
the Oklahoma deal where the kid dusted those 2-3 invaders. And I bet in his situation it was just a point and shoot deal with his AR.
Just as a point of interest, he used a 20" iron-sighted A2 for that.
My positive experiences with the PA 2.5x have made me want to eventually try out something similar in concept but more battle proven - namely an ACOG.
One small detail I found out yesterday--ACOG's don't have a diopter adjustment, if that's an issue for you.
bamashooter
08-25-19, 15:33
The gun that I had my LPVO on for a while had previously had a Primary Arms 2.5x prism on it. After removing the LPVO, the gun went through a brief "irons only" stage and now has the 2.5x on it again.
It's not as versatile as an LPVO, and not a good choice for an HD optic, but if used on an "outdoors only" AR a compact low powered fixed magnification optic works pretty well. Although personally I don't think I'd want to go higher than 3x for that. They can be used at close range without too much trouble but they aren't ideal for that.
I've been meaning to experiment with doing the occluded-eye thing with mine at close range but haven't much of that yet.
My positive experiences with the PA 2.5x have made me want to eventually try out something similar in concept but more battle proven - namely an ACOG.
Just as a point of interest, he used a 20" iron-sighted A2 for that.
Yep, "he done good" imo. If there is such a thing, he was fortunate to have that go down under "ideal" conditions". I agree the magnified prisms aren't ideal for interior HD. But if someone is going to use an AR (any size) as their primary HD weapon, I'm good with it.
Belmont31R
08-25-19, 17:36
Define inferior. And there are plenty of people here who shoot short barrels well past 100 yards.
Eye box and the fact you cannot get true 1X with an optic that has magnified lenses in play. I loved Short-Dots and the red dot works well but will never be the same as an Aimpoint or EOTech (or other 1X sights).
Still, though, they are a better option than fixed magnified optics like the ACOG. The ACOG 4X was great for the time and in a military application because they are built like tanks but there's a good reason they tried to slap a RDS on top of the ACOG.
And agreed no reason why short barrels can't be accurate or employed well past QCB distances. They actually have some benefit to the shorter length being more rigid assuming the profile is the same as a longer barrel.
Inferior to me would mean that it is literally impossible (or at the very least takes significantly more effort) to achieve the same standard. I've seen dudes beat or match RDS times with an LPVO on drills. I've done comparisons but for some reason never on a timer. Hopefully the next two days will give me the opportunity to do so. I'll compare my EXPS3 gun to my Razor gun. In the past, I've never felt there was a significant, but hopefully I can put some numbers on paper.
Until then, if we were talking LPVOs of 10 years ago or Strike Eagle quality, I'd agree. But with the options we have now, I believe the term inferior is completely incorrect.
Wake
From your experience, what are good options for a lpvo? I started with cheap lpvo’s to test the waters (primary arms and an old Pentax)
MrG&G reviewed the Nikon 1000 Black 1-4 and I’m considering getting one.
I have cheap Nikons and mid price vortex’s (diamondback and PST) scopes. The cheap Nikons are pretty decent for the price so I’m leaning to trying the Nikon Black
1. Range
2. Hunting
3. Home (back up)
No door kicking
Wake
From your experience, what are good options for a lpvo? I started with cheap lpvo’s to test the waters (primary arms and an old Pentax)
MrG&G reviewed the Nikon 1000 Black 1-4 and I’m considering getting one.
Kick your budget up another $100-150 and the Vortex PST G2 1-6x24 is a viable option. It's 80% of the Razor at 50% of the price.
Rhino
Thank you sir! I’ll read up on them
Yep, the Viper is arguably the best b4b LPVO.
Kick your budget up another $100-150 and the Vortex PST G2 1-6x24 is a viable option. It's 80% of the Razor at 50% of the price.
Kick your budget up another $100-150 and the Vortex PST G2 1-6x24 is a viable option. It's 80% of the Razor at 50% of the price.
A lot of people have said this. It made me think twice about getting a Razor but I still really wanted one. The Viper is on my list for my backup gun though.
Another option is the Steiner P4Xi. It’s what I started with and I had it for about a year before deciding to move up to the Razor. Very good quality for the money.
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Pacific5th
08-26-19, 14:37
Very interesting thread. I’ve been toying with the idea of a 1-4 on my Mini-14. My AR is happy with a Aimpoint Pro. I tend to take the Mini camping with me though and I thought a LPVO might be nice where’s I have a little bit more range. I was looking at a Leupold 1-4 Freedom. Why don’t I see much about the Leupold options in here? Something wrong with them?
Very interesting thread. I’ve been toying with the idea of a 1-4 on my Mini-14. My AR is happy with a Aimpoint Pro. I tend to take the Mini camping with me though and I thought a LPVO might be nice where’s I have a little bit more range. I was looking at a Leupold 1-4 Freedom. Why don’t I see much about the Leupold options in here? Something wrong with them?
They are never 1.0x on the bottom end and yes that matters.
Only their VX-6 and MK6 are 1.0x on the bottom. The VX-6 has always been beset with illumination / reticle issues which disappoint people and the $2K+ price point make the MK6 1-6 hard to stomach.
I've been using an Aimpoint PRO with 3x magnifier, the problem is even with a cantilever mount moving the Aimpoint forward I can't fit the rear backup iron sight so it has me considering a LPVO.
There are so many choices that I'm stuck with analysis paralysis.
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I've been using an Aimpoint PRO with 3x magnifier, the problem is even with a cantilever mount moving the Aimpoint forward I can't fit the rear backup iron sight so it has me considering a LPVO.
There are so many choices that I'm stuck with analysis paralysis.
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If you lay out priorities and expectations, we may be able to offer advice.
Weight
Cost
Clarity
Durability
Reticle
Eyebox
These are all factors, once you narrow down what you want, the options get narrowed down drastically.
They are never 1.0x on the bottom end and yes that matters.
Only their VX-6 and MK6 are 1.0x on the bottom. The VX-6 has always been beset with illumination / reticle issues which disappoint people and the $2K+ price point make the MK6 1-6 hard to stomach.
They’d probably sell more if they put decent reticles in the vx6.
For me, the very first consideration is cost. If that does not matter, the Kahles K16i is tough to beat. For most mortals cost is a major factor and, in this case, I wouldn't go under the Viper PST for serious use. For budget optics, Primary Arms has some good b4b choices, if you don't mind looking through Chicom glass.
I've been using an Aimpoint PRO with 3x magnifier, the problem is even with a cantilever mount moving the Aimpoint forward I can't fit the rear backup iron sight so it has me considering a LPVO.
There are so many choices that I'm stuck with analysis paralysis.
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I've been using an Aimpoint PRO with 3x magnifier, the problem is even with a cantilever mount moving the Aimpoint forward I can't fit the rear backup iron sight so it has me considering a LPVO.
There are so many choices that I'm stuck with analysis paralysis.
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This exact problem has me looking at the Vortex Micro3x magnifier. But I have LPVO’s also.
My local gun store got my Vortex Micro 3x in yesterday. I’m picking it up today and will hopefully make it up to the range this afternoon. I’m putting it behind an EoTech on my 14.5 Colt SOCOM which currently has a Scalarworks BUIS. From the pics, I don’t think it will fit but a MBUS Pro will based on other pics I’ve seen.
We shall see. I’ll report in later.
This exact problem has me looking at the Vortex Micro3x magnifier. But I have LPVO’s also.
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For budget optics, Primary Arms has some good b4b choices, if you don't mind looking through Chicom glass.
This raises a question for me as well. I'm literally checking out various LPVO, prism sight, or RDS + magnifier options today, for a new rifle. Not sure how I missed it the last few years, but I've never really been that aware of the Primary Arms optics nor tried one. I can probably swing the cost of a Vortex Razor 1-6, that's my current top end budget wise and also my leading candidate. But....I'm not necessarily looking to go drop that kind of change if I can get what I need--"combat-sufficient level of durability, reliability, and precision"--from a more value-priced scope.
What I narrowed down to were the Vortex PST II 1-6, the SWFA 1-6 (on sale right now for about $890--really like the reticle and features, but I assume Chicom as well), the Leupy VXR Patrol 1.25-4, and maybe---this is the one I'm asking about---the Primary Arms FFP 1-6 Raptor (https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black).
I don't know anybody who runs a PA Raptor on a rifle for serious defensive use. You see great reviews on the glass and reticle, given the price point, some suggesting it's preferred to the Vortex PST II in that price range.
Is that PA Raptor LPVO a legit scope with the toughness for defensive use?
Hard to say. I'm sure I won't be the only one who tries to answer this, but I can say that for the money, PA is doing good things. Their fixed power prism scopes (Gen 2's in particular) are impressive. Super tough, and clear glass/reticle. The ACSS system really sets it apart from other systems (for me). If you are talking HD and range work, I would think you would be okay with their line-up. If you are taking it to war, I'd look higher for sure. However, if you are looking to spend $400, I would save a little more to get the Viper PST Gen 2. Good scope.
The Razor has dazzling clarity, a very generous eyebox and a daytime bright dot. To my knowledge, they are SOF tough albeit very heavy compared to the Kahles I mentioned above (half pound lighter). I've gotten to use one extensively and it's excellent for any price.
I've heard great things about SWFA, but haven't looked behind one.
Going back many years, I was a big fan of Leupold (old Mark 4 user here) but I just can't get on board with their 1.25x low end. It's too dizzying for me.
This raises a question for me as well. I'm literally checking out various LPVO, prism sight, or RDS + magnifier options today, for a new rifle. Not sure how I missed it the last few years, but I've never really been that aware of the Primary Arms optics nor tried one. I can probably swing the cost of a Vortex Razor 1-6, that's my current top end budget wise and also my leading candidate. But....I'm not necessarily looking to go drop that kind of change if I can get what I need--"combat-sufficient level of durability, reliability, and precision"--from a more value-priced scope.
What I narrowed down to were the Vortex PST II 1-6, the SWFA 1-6 (on sale right now for about $890--really like the reticle and features, but I assume Chicom as well), the Leupy VXR Patrol 1.25-4, and maybe---this is the one I'm asking about---the Primary Arms FFP 1-6 Raptor (https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black).
I don't know anybody who runs a PA Raptor on a rifle for serious defensive use. You see great reviews on the glass and reticle, given the price point, some suggesting it's preferred to the Vortex PST II in that price range.
Is that PA Raptor LPVO a legit scope with the toughness for defensive use?
Hard to say. I'm sure I won't be the only one who tries to answer this, but I can say that for the money, PA is doing good things. Their fixed power prism scopes (Gen 2's in particular) are impressive. Super tough, and clear glass/reticle. The ACSS system really sets it apart from other systems (for me). If you are talking HD and range work, I would think you would be okay with their line-up. If you are taking it to war, I'd look higher for sure. However, if you are looking to spend $400, I would save a little more to get the Viper PST Gen 2. Good scope.
The Razor has dazzling clarity, a very generous eyebox and a daytime bright dot. To my knowledge, they are SOF tough albeit very heavy compared to the Kahles I mentioned above (half pound lighter). I've gotten to use one extensively and it's excellent for any price.
I've heard great things about SWFA, but haven't looked behind one.
Going back many years, I was a big fan of Leupold (old Mark 4 user here) but I just can't get on board with their 1.25x low end. It's too dizzying for me.
For work and play I have used NF, S&B, Leupold (also Mk4), and SWFA. SWFA is one of my favorite; especially the HD. The 3-15 FFP scope, to me, is one of the best under a grand.
For work and play I have used NF, S&B, Leupold (also Mk4), and SWFA. SWFA is one of my favorite; especially the HD. The 3-15 FFP scope, to me, is one of the best under a grand.
Yes I hear good things about SWFA, used to have one of their 10x "super sniper" or whatever, was excellent and well made for price, but sold it. They have extremely well thought-out features on the 1-6. Any idea where these are made?
To my knowledge, they are SOF tough albeit very heavy compared to the Kahles I mentioned above (half pound lighter). I've gotten to use one extensively and it's excellent for any price.
On the weight thing, PA lists Raptor weight as 17.6oz, while SWFA sells the Kahles and lists it as 16.9.
Is the PA site weight listing an error, is it actually a lot heavier for this Raptor (https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black)?
Can't kick on that lineup.
For work and play I have used NF, S&B, Leupold (also Mk4), and SWFA. SWFA is one of my favorite; especially the HD. The 3-15 FFP scope, to me, is one of the best under a grand.
I was referring to the Vortex Razor HD Gen II-E 1-6x as being clocked in at around 22oz (with brass internals). I had heard that the Razor went to aluminum internals to cut weight, but I can't confirm it. IME, it made a lightweight carbine noticeably top heavy. ETA: I'm somewhat exaggerating when I say "noticeably". I did have it in a LaRue SPR mount, and that ain't exactly light either.
On the weight thing, PA lists Raptor weight as 17.6oz, while SWFA sells the Kahles and lists it as 16.9.
Is the PA site weight listing an error, is it actually a lot heavier for this Raptor (https://www.primaryarms.com/pa-1-6x24mm-ffp-illuminated-rifle-scope-with-acss-raptor-556-reticle-black)?
I was referring to the Vortex Razor HD Gen II-E 1-6x as being clocked in at around 22oz (with brass internals). I had heard that the Razor went to aluminum internals to cut weight, but I can't confirm it. IME, it made a lightweight carbine noticeably top heavy. ETA: I'm somewhat exaggerating when I say "noticeably". I did have it in a LaRue SPR mount, and that ain't exactly light either.
That is good feedback--definitely something I'm looking for and why firsthand experience with an optic is better than just reading specs. My new rifle is a kinda' lightweight with BCM ELW barrel and will come in around 5.9 - 6.0 lbs when done, definitely don't want to end up too top heavy.
I have to rewind a bit. The E variant is just over 21oz (aluminum internals). The one I used, non-E, was over 25oz (brass internals). For it's size, this is a very heavy scope. I cannot say if .mil uses the lighter model.
The good news is that a scope setup like this puts the weight just behind most carbine's balance point and between the hands. What I found noticeable was the sensation that it wanted to roll over to the side when compared to an Aimpoint Micro. I'm sure most would say "duh" on that. After a lot of rounds, that sensation diminished. However, going back to a RDS was like taking off a plate carrier.
That is good feedback--definitely something I'm looking for and why firsthand experience with an optic is better than just reading specs. My new rifle is a kinda' lightweight with BCM ELW barrel and will come in around 5.9 - 6.0 lbs when done, definitely don't want to end up too front heavy.
Wait so would this be a primary serious use rifle? If so, I think it should get the Razor - the same way you’d put an Aimpoint on a serious use rifle. If it’s not, you should still consider that the quality of the LPVO will play a large role in how much of a learning curve there will be. You’d be an idiot to dismiss the validity of an LPVO because you bought a budget version.
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Wait so would this be a primary serious use rifle? If so, I think it should get the Razor - the same way you’d put an Aimpoint on a serious use rifle.
If asking me--yes. Trying to refine my short list of LPVO's that have the toughness/quality-of-construction to sit on a rifle for defensive use.
If asking me--yes. Trying to refine my short list of LPVO's that have the toughness/quality-of-construction to sit on a rifle for defensive use.
In that case, I’d definitely recommend the Razor if you can afford it. The Viper Gen IIs, while supposedly very similar to the Razor function-wise, did have reported durability issues, at least early on. I think Steve Fisher said he’d seen many of them break. The Steiner P4Xi has had a few as well IIRC, but not as many so that’d be my second choice if price was the determining factor.
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Wait so would this be a primary serious use rifle? If so, I think it should get the Razor - the same way you’d put an Aimpoint on a serious use rifle. If it’s not, you should still consider that the quality of the LPVO will play a large role in how much of a learning curve there will be. You’d be an idiot to dismiss the validity of an LPVO because you bought a budget version.
Wise advice right here ^
I have a Vortex PST GEN II (early 2019 manufacture) and somewhat regret not getting a Razor or even Kahles. PST Gen II is a good scope for what it is - better than primary arms and such, but noticeably lacks behind in glass quality behind top line products. Don't fool yourself - "as good as X" for some people might not be the same to you.
To keep expectations in check, if you want a daylight bright reticle (dot), unparalleled optical clarity, bombproof durability and relative lightweight, you're in the $2,000+ range. Anything less and compromises start emerging.
I love my ACOG. I still am interested in a quality 1-8 LPVO. It keeps me interested in investing in our economy! Lol.
WickedWillis
08-29-19, 16:29
To keep expectations in check, if you want a daylight bright reticle (dot), unparalleled optical clarity, bombproof durability and relative lightweight, you're in the $2,000+ range. Anything less and compromises start emerging.
So the Razor does not click all of these boxes?
I love my ACOG. I still am interested in a quality 1-8 LPVO. It keeps me interested in investing in our economy! Lol.
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this scope, but take a look at the Trijicon Accupower 1x8x28. I have one. Very nice scope. Heavy son of a gun, but very, very nice.
All but the weight. It's a brick.
So the Razor does not click all of these boxes?
So the Razor does not click all of these boxes?
All but the weight. It's a brick.
Yup. Razor does everything well except for the weight. But I have yet to find it that bad, I think because it was hyped up so much I had worse expectations for how heavy it’d be.
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I picked up my Vortex Micro3X today. I have mounted it. Range time will come tomorrow. I have some initial obervations to share. For the sake of not hijacking this thread anymore, I will post my thoughts in the thread over in the Optics and Mounts forum about the unit:
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?13-Optics-amp-Mounts
This exact problem has me looking at the Vortex Micro3x magnifier. But I have LPVO’s also.
The atacr 1-8 is expensive. But it is fast. You will not be disappointed
Yes I hear good things about SWFA, used to have one of their 10x "super sniper" or whatever, was excellent and well made for price, but sold it. They have extremely well thought-out features on the 1-6. Any idea where these are made?
There HD are Japanese-manufactured. I believe the others are built in China but not certain. The 10x is every bit as good as any sub-grand fixed scope on the market. I like it much better than the Leupold Mk4 10x. I have not shot the 1-6 but heard good things.
Yup. Razor does everything well except for the weight. But I have yet to find it that bad, I think because it was hyped up so much I had worse expectations for how heavy it’d be.
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I went with the Razor. You read a lots of reviews praising the glass. Kyle Defoor has a pretty good video about it and recommends it, even over the competing NF 1-8 that he has. He also made some comments that kind of educated me on the state of the thinking about combat rifle optics, and that he doesn't even run red dots anymore except when teaching classes where his students have them. I realize *lots* of folks out there do not agree with that though, and still advocate for using RDS on some rifles.
On the Razor's weight, I guess 21.5oz. I've been thinking for a while of splurging on a better mount, and I'm looking at a few options in the 5.5oz range, which shaves 3oz off my typical AD Recon mounts. But no matter what, I'll be adding at least 1.75lbs to the rifle and making it more top heavy. It's a trade-off. For me the issue isn't the extra pound or so when lugging the rifle around, it's more about how it handles.
For myself, not convinced yet I need to abandon the concept of a close-range, fixed and probably unmagnified optic on a single rifle, with the goal of it being a close-range weapon and light and handy. I've always had one for HD and probably won't change that. Still, if somebody comes up with a quality LPVO as light and handy as the Leupy VXR Patrol--with a true 1x and better illumination while not being insanely expensive--I'm in. However, that may be unobtanium right now. My problem is I have Schmidt & Bender taste and a Burris budget. :-)
There HD are Japanese-manufactured. I believe the others are built in China but not certain. The 10x is every bit as good as any sub-grand fixed scope on the market. I like it much better than the Leupold Mk4 10x. I have not shot the 1-6 but heard good things.
You are right. I actually called them yesterday, they confirmed their optics including the 1-6 are made in Japan--as are a lot of optics these days. It's a generalization, but I'd usually rather have an optic manufactured in Japan than China.
Don Robison
08-30-19, 10:25
Inferior being that it isn’t as good as a red dot for up close. Sure it can be done almost as well as a red dot but not quite. You need the proper eye relief to even see the dot and the 1x is never a true 1x. It’s always slightly more than 1x and with both eyes open the sight picture becomes slightly distorted to some. Especially for someone who’s left eye dominant but shoots right handed.
I’m not saying it sucks. It doesn’t. It works well but not 100 percent like a red dot will.
Also I’m not saying that people don’t shoot short barrels past 100 yards. Sure at the range or on a hunt but in defense it’s almost never done for the average person. But that’s another topic.I must be doing it wrong because with good glass it's been 100% effective. Of course there will be issues if you you budget glass. Just like there are issues with budget red dots. Budget LPVOs are unforgiving and worse than budget red dots.
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