View Full Version : Man shot and killed by father-son duo in Abilene Texas over trash
I don't know TX law but this goes from bad to worse. Vid does not show if dude decided to take a swing with the bat, but why you'd hand someone a bat when two people in front of you have firearms, seems like bad idea. It was:
https://defensemaven.io/bluelivesmatter/news/video-father-son-arrested-after-fatally-shooting-man-threatening-to-kill-them-aYcb2_ABJkmvo0wpPopT1w/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=149&v=SF2ROKpLYiY
RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 11:17
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SomeOtherGuy
09-21-18, 11:25
I'll bite.
1) Best comment on linked site "There is so much trailer trash in this video that I spontaneously grew a mullet just by watching it."
2) It is hard to imagine a stupider reason to have a deadly force incident. This is way into Idiocracy territory.
3) From spoken and body language, deceased guy apparently always gets his way and just expects to get his way. No attempt at reasoning or discussion.
4) Interesting that although father-son were arrested and charged with murder 1, their bail was only $25,000. Admittedly that's more than terrorist-camp-mastermind bail in neighboring New Mexico, but it's very low for murder 1. That makes me think that the judge and prosecutor expect the charges to be dismissed or greatly reduced.
5) Regardless of the legal outcome of this case, I'll bet it's the start of a multi-generational violent feud.
6) Father-son, especially father, were remarkably calm for all the threats, screaming and lunging/posturing from deceased. I'm guessing father has dealt with dangerous trashy people somewhat regularly in past, maybe in whatever his line of work is.
7) Clothing doesn't affect the legal basis, but if father-son had been fully dressed in some decent clothes, the perception would be very different.
8) Given all the threats recorded on the video, the main legal issue will be whether the father-son started the fight or not, and whether they had a duty to retreat.
9) Common-law widow took video thinking her side was in the right, but it may well be the most useful evidence to exonerate father-son or at least get charges greatly reduced. I can't imagine a murder 1 conviction if a jury saw this. Maybe manslaughter.
RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 12:01
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
09-21-18, 12:03
Headshot?
SomeOtherGuy
09-21-18, 12:14
Headshot?
Not clear but I think 2-3 handgun shots followed by 1-2 shotgun shots.
I'll bite.
1) Best comment on linked site "There is so much trailer trash in this video that I spontaneously grew a mullet just by watching it."
2) It is hard to imagine a stupider reason to have a deadly force incident. This is way into Idiocracy territory.
3) From spoken and body language, deceased guy apparently always gets his way and just expects to get his way. No attempt at reasoning or discussion.
4) Interesting that although father-son were arrested and charged with murder 1, their bail was only $25,000. Admittedly that's more than terrorist-camp-mastermind bail in neighboring New Mexico, but it's very low for murder 1. That makes me think that the judge and prosecutor expect the charges to be dismissed or greatly reduced.
5) Regardless of the legal outcome of this case, I'll bet it's the start of a multi-generational violent feud.
6) Father-son, especially father, were remarkably calm for all the threats, screaming and lunging/posturing from deceased. I'm guessing father has dealt with dangerous trashy people somewhat regularly in past, maybe in whatever his line of work is.
7) Clothing doesn't affect the legal basis, but if father-son had been fully dressed in some decent clothes, the perception would be very different.
8) Given all the threats recorded on the video, the main legal issue will be whether the father-son started the fight or not, and whether they had a duty to retreat.
9) Common-law widow took video thinking her side was in the right, but it may well be the most useful evidence to exonerate father-son or at least get charges greatly reduced. I can't imagine a murder 1 conviction if a jury saw this. Maybe manslaughter.
I believe one does not have a duty to retreat in TX from what I have read. What a cluster. You can see the bat go flying by at the very end of the vid.
The guy told him don't come near me. The man still went and got a ball bat, then came near him while repeatedly threatening to kill him. How many police would just stand there letting some guy get within swinging distance of a ball bat after warning him repeatedly to back off? None.We don't know what it was about but how about de-escalating the situation by walking away. Police don't have the luxury to walk away
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SomeOtherGuy
09-21-18, 12:34
We don't know what it was about but how about de-escalating the situation by walking away.
The backstory is explained in the article linked in post #1. No matter how dumb you expect it to be, it's dumber.
Averageman
09-21-18, 12:36
This is an episode of "The Trailer Park Boys" gone horribly wrong.
We don't know what it was about but how about de-escalating the situation by walking away. Police don't have the luxury to walk away
There's a number of ways it could have gone that didn't end like that, but I'm not sure what legal obligations they had under TX to take another route.
The guy told him don't come near me. The man still went and got a ball bat, then came near him while repeatedly threatening to kill him. How many police would just stand there letting some guy get within swinging distance of a ball bat after warning him repeatedly to back off? None.
That's where I'm at.
Guy with the handgun repeatedly and calmly told his "I'm gonna ****ing kill you WWF" neighbor to back off at least a dozen times. Since he didn't get all huffy and puffy, WWF neighbor got a bat (I guess a folding chair wasn't available) and apparently became the armed aggressor and guess what?
I'm amazed the father and son were arrested, looks like a solid stand your ground. And this is the kind of shit that seemed to be happening all around me in FL and that is one of the reasons I moved.
RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 13:04
delete
So I'm guessing the dumpster belonged to the Millers (father and son) and the mattress belonged to Howard and Box who got upset when Miller took the mattress out of his dumpster and put it on his lawn.
Sounds exactly like the F-ed up shit I was seeing all the time.
So you want a different set of rules for different sets of civilians? Doesn't work that way. These guys are under no duty to retreat especially if being threatened with physical harm.Cops don't just go away once they're called. Have you ever heard someone say "I'm not going to comply" and the cops just say well...we tried, didn't work, we're leaving.
This street not being my property the neighbor can scream and threaten me all he wants. I'll go home, call the cops and file charges. I would never have waited there long enough for him to get the bat.
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The guy's with the guns should have had shirts on.
Its scary, I had exactly the same thought.
Moose-Knuckle
09-21-18, 14:49
PENAL CODE
TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY
SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS
If deadly force is so justified, there is no Previous duty to retreat before using it.
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/DocViewer.aspx?DocKey=PE%2fPE.9&Phrases=duty%7cto%7cretreat&HighlightType=1&ExactPhrase=False&QueryText=duty+to+retreat
Now that we have that out of the way . . .
For those of you who have never been to Abilene, TX it is a smallish typical TX town. Largely conservative with a church on every corner and even a Baptist university in town. The color of their skin, body mass index, lack of clothing, who did what with the jizz stained mattress, et al. do not matter in this incident.
As usual we don't have video of what led up to the confrontation but things must have escalated to the point that the father and son felt the need to arm themselves. That was very wise of them, they've probably have had past run-ins with Mr. Yells Deadly Threats. In the cell phone video it is obvious who the aggressor was, the enraged neighbor in the orange shirt.
In the video footage at no time did the father advance on his enraged neighbor. He simply stood his ground which is well within his legal right to do so. The "common-law-wife" legal scholar pipes up that he is not on his property (as if that matters lol), one has the right to self-defense in the public domain. Mr. enraged neighbor repeatedly yells; "I'M GOING TO KILL YOU MOTHER ****ER!" to the father AND his son and yells other statements to include; "MOTHER ****ER I'M GOING TO PUT A BULLET THROUGH YOUR HEAD". Of course after all this he escalates things by taking a baseball bat (blunt instrument) from his brother. So with what we know it was three against two, that is a good son who covered his pops with the street howitzer.
If I lived in the county or worked in it I'd take some issue with the DA and the charges brought fourth against the victims in this case. As for MMQB'ing, the son should have had a cell phone and called 911 to report a enraged neighbor threatening to kill his father and himself while having his dad's back. To quell the court of public opinion and the bleeding hearts I wouldn't have said "If you come near me, etc. I'm going to kill you". Never mention shooting or killing, play to the camera. Nor would I have said "Go ahead and take your swing" or called him any names. Props to the father and son for remaining calm for the most part and not letting themselves be assaulted and or murdered.
one thing if the brothers were smart and kept their mouth shut when the police arrived and waited for a lawyer
and the dead guys wife spouted off that they just shot him for no reason and lied about who did what
I can see the murder 1 but I do think this is going to fall apart really quick
ditto the saying take a swing and the other idiocy but this is what you get with idiots and idiots ?
but on a personal side when rednecks collide reckon this is what happens ?
personal side to I wonder if they had enough bullying from this guy before and finally stood their ground or ?
but the dead guy saying he is going to kill them then grabbing a weapon etc.. just shaking my head as someone called his bluff
dead dude looked big and acted the bully so also reckon he did this is whole short life and someone did not back down this time
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-21-18, 16:18
Ed's dead, but he was right, the old guy was arrested.
I could do with the the filler on the sides of the actual video. For most of it, it seems to just be gut and man-boob just barely perceptible.
This is probably a lot like how the shootout at the OK corral went.
Did the handgun jam?
I've heard of 'going to the mattresses' but never over the mattresses.
Outlander Systems
09-21-18, 16:26
https://pli.io/lwKLU.jpg
1) Dude was putting his mattress in their dumpster so he didn’t have to pay the trash removal fee
2) He threatened to kill a mailman for walking between his cars and his window when the mailman was trying to deliver the mail
3) He’s got a rap sheet longer than War and Peace
4) He came after John Miller with a baseball bat
5) He threw the bat at John Miller after John shot him twice
6) After being shot twice and then throwing the bat at John Miller; Mike Miller cleaved his head in twain with a 12ga Shockwave
https://arrestfacts.com/Aaron-Howard-5U2k54
https://pli.io/lwgH8.jpg
https://pli.io/lwyoY.jpg
If you are going to be in Dumpster Wars then don't bring a bat to a gun fight.
The Dead guy, Aaron, was arrested more time then he changed his underwear.
Coal Dragger
09-21-18, 16:35
I watched the video.
I doubt murder charges are going to stick.
All involved were morons.
Aside from that it looked like what an argument among raccoons would be like if they spoke English. Silly trash pandas.
Outlander Systems
09-21-18, 16:47
https://pli.io/lwTWb.png
If you are going to be in Dumpster Wars then don't bring a bat to a gun fight.
The Dead guy, Aaron, was arrested more time then he changed his underwear.
We don't know what it was about but how about de-escalating the situation by walking away. Police don't have the luxury to walk away
I have seen plenty of videos of them walking away or waiting outside.
In Texas you do not have an obligation to retreat.
Proof Idiocracy is non-fiction.
Outlander Systems
09-21-18, 17:05
https://pli.io/lwawH.jpg
I have seen plenty of videos of them walking away or waiting outside.
In Texas you do not have an obligation to retreat.
Proof Idiocracy is non-fiction.
Evel Baldgui
09-21-18, 17:50
Just white trash being taken out...
If you are going to be in Dumpster Wars then don't bring a bat to a gun fight.
The Dead guy, Aaron, was arrested more time then he changed his underwear.
Shocking...
WickedWillis
09-21-18, 18:54
A bat against two guns, against two guys, is not exactly a force multiplier.
This whole thing seems like a shit show.
A bat against two guns, against two guys, is not exactly a force multiplier.
This whole thing seems like a shit show.It forced the two man-boobers to fire multiple rounds. Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Outlander Systems
09-21-18, 19:19
They knew this guy was dumping his trash in their dumpster, and a confrontation was necessary in order to prevent future instances. They knew the guy was batshit(no pun intended) and wisely decided to come armed. If they didn't confront him, he would continue to dump his shit there. If they showed up without weapons, he would have either bashed the dad's head in, or cuss them out and not stop. If they called the cops, he likely would have retaliated against them. By the way, he had litterally been charged with retaliation like 4 ****ing times
Shocking...
Looks like a candidate for the 2018 Darwin Award.
SilverBullet432
09-21-18, 20:58
Welcome to West Texas!
Cops don't just go away once they're called. Have you ever heard someone say "I'm not going to comply" and the cops just say well...we tried, didn't work, we're leaving.
This street not being my property the neighbor can scream and threaten me all he wants. I'll go home, call the cops and file charges. I would never have waited there long enough for him to get the bat.
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Pretty sure dead dude was trying to put his mattress in their dumpster. Probably why they weren't interested in walking away.
https://pli.io/lwKLU.jpg
1) Dude was putting his mattress in their dumpster so he didn’t have to pay the trash removal fee
2) He threatened to kill a mailman for walking between his cars and his window when the mailman was trying to deliver the mail
3) He’s got a rap sheet longer than War and Peace
4) He came after John Miller with a baseball bat
5) He threw the bat at John Miller after John shot him twice
6) After being shot twice and then throwing the bat at John Miller; Mike Miller cleaved his head in twain with a 12ga Shockwave
https://arrestfacts.com/Aaron-Howard-5U2k54
https://pli.io/lwgH8.jpg
https://pli.io/lwyoY.jpg
Things are making a lot more sense, sounds like the Millers just took out the trash.
They knew this guy was dumping his trash in their dumpster, and a confrontation was necessary in order to prevent future instances. They knew the guy was batshit(no pun intended) and wisely decided to come armed. If they didn't confront him, he would continue to dump his shit there. If they showed up without weapons, he would have either bashed the dad's head in, or cuss them out and not stop. If they called the cops, he likely would have retaliated against them. By the way, he had litterally been charged with retaliation like 4 ****ing times
Did the police refuse to answer the complaint? Or did they make one?
Unless you are protecting life a good rule to live by is 'if you need a gun to do it, it probably ain't worth doing'
This did not need to happen, son, in particular was agitating the case by his posturing, his crotch gesturing and his language, tough guys when they have their guns, not so much without.
They got what they wanted, I hope they feel like real men. If they didn't make bond and had to stay overnight they are both stump broke now.
Trailer trash killing trailer trash, still sad.
I'm amazed the father and son were arrested, looks like a solid stand your ground.
Well... It's been six years since I got out of the LEO business in TX, But... Generally "no retreat" laws do not allow a person to use deadly force in reaction to verbal abuse or if a person has instigated the confrontation. None of us were there. Imho, "who instigated' THIS confrontation might be in question by the LEOs. It sounds like this will get worked out in the courts.
This one hits home. We had a big bully like this guy in my old patrol district. I arrested him several times for the same types of things... He died the SAME WAY about 10 years ago via a smaller guy with a 12 ga. The smaller guy had been beaten up too many times by the bully and had had enough. He was later no-billed by the DA.
Pretty sure dead dude was trying to put his mattress in their dumpster. Probably why they weren't interested in walking away.I get it but I don't. Having this kind of argument over who's trash goes where? For me it would be simple. I'd politely ask them to remove it without throwing it on their lawn. And explain why. "look guys, I end up being charged for this. It's fine if you want to just give me a few bucks to cover this otherwise can you please put it somewhere else?" If that's a problem I'll call the cops or the trash company. This tough guy posturing over some trash is.....well quite frankly it doesn't make sense to me.
Also, were looking at this guys criminal history now....after the fact. It doesn't play a role in the confrontation. Did Sr walk out there with the gun in his hand? We don't know but if he did and I was the other guy I'd take that as a threat. So who would be right here? Me for reacting to a threat it him seeing me as a threat reacting to his threat?
I'm not saying the guy in the orange shirt is a stand up citizen but I don't know who's who in the 2min video
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RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 23:08
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How many altercations with Mr. Rapsheet loudmouth would condition you to carry a weapon just to pull that shitbag neighbors trash from your dumpster? What happened before the film started that Sr decided to pull his piece because it was likely in his pocket while he removed the mattress from his dumpster? Given the verbal altercation after the video started, what prompted Jr to get his piece to protect Sr? How many times did Sr tell that stupid **** to back off? Then finally told him he'd shoot if he took that bat within three feet of him. The reality is some people just need to be shot- it's that simple.I don't know! How many altercations did Miller have?
Carrying a weapon on you and having one in your hand are not the same thing. Come outside towards me with a gun in your hand and I'll take that as a threat. So who's threatening whom?
I don't care if it was a million altercations, stepping outside with a gun in hand ..... in that moment you'd be the one threatening.
RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 23:22
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Good grief. Have you ever threatened anyone like that guy did to warrant a gun being drawn on you by a neighbor and his son? I haven't.
Good grief it doesn't matter. You can't walk up to someone with a gun drawn because he may verbally accost you. Even if the guy is a douchebag, you can't expect someone to not react to that. If you walked up to me like that id probably go off on you too. In the end you're the one that came up to me first.
Of course all this bullshit is based on a two min video. Miller being calm doesn't make him less of an asshole. For all we know he could have started this whole mess
Who instigated this confrontation?
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Moose-Knuckle
09-21-18, 23:32
Did the police refuse to answer the complaint? Or did they make one?
I guess the neighbor in the orange shirt needed yet another talking to by the police and catch a fifth retaliation charge, that would have showed him.
Unless you are protecting life a good rule to live by is 'if you need a gun to do it, it probably ain't worth doing'
How did the father and his son not protect their lives in this incident?
This did not need to happen, son, in particular was agitating the case by his posturing, his crotch gesturing and his language, tough guys when they have their guns, not so much without.
What utter nonsense.
They got what they wanted, I hope they feel like real men.
Oh so very emotional.
It's as if you wanted the victims to be ones to loose their life in this incident.
RetroRevolver77
09-21-18, 23:38
deleted
Moose-Knuckle
09-21-18, 23:43
For me it would be simple. I'd politely ask them to remove it without throwing it on their lawn. And explain why. "look guys, I end up being charged for this. It's fine if you want to just give me a few bucks to cover this otherwise can you please put it somewhere else?"
You obviously have never had to deal with violent people. Asking them nicely to put their trash somewhere else results in you getting bent into a pretzel.
If that's a problem I'll call the cops or the trash company. This tough guy posturing over some trash is.....well quite frankly it doesn't make sense to me.
How do you know they didn't call the police and or the trash company before? Do you honestly believe a guy who screams death threats like that and has the criminal history that he does cares what the police have to say much less a waste collection company?
Also, were looking at this guys criminal history now....after the fact. It doesn't play a role in the confrontation.
More utter nonsense.
Did Sr walk out there with the gun in his hand? We don't know but if he did and I was the other guy I'd take that as a threat.
So you would scream death threats at an armed man and his armed son then come at them with a baseball bat if you felt threatened by them?
So who would be right here? Me for reacting to a threat it him seeing me as a threat reacting to his threat?
WTF does this even mean?
I'm not saying the guy in the orange shirt is a stand up citizen but I don't know who's who in the 2min video
If you don't know who's who after watching ten seconds of that then I honestly don't know what to tell you.
You sound like a winner.Thanks! Don't you have a conspiracy theory to rant about!?
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Well... It's been six years since I got out of the LEO business in TX, But... Generally "no retreat" laws do not allow a person to use deadly force in reaction to verbal abuse or if a person has instigated the confrontation. None of us were there. Imho, "who instigated' THIS confrontation might be in question by the LEOs. It sounds like this will get worked out in the courts.
This one hits home. We had a big bully like this guy in my old patrol district. I arrested him several times for the same types of things... He died the SAME WAY about 10 years ago via a smaller guy with a 12 ga. The smaller guy had been beaten up too many times by the bully and had had enough. He was later no-billed by the DA.
Works for me.
I get it but I don't. Having this kind of argument over who's trash goes where? For me it would be simple. I'd politely ask them to remove it without throwing it on their lawn. And explain why. "look guys, I end up being charged for this. It's fine if you want to just give me a few bucks to cover this otherwise can you please put it somewhere else?" If that's a problem I'll call the cops or the trash company. This tough guy posturing over some trash is.....well quite frankly it doesn't make sense to me.
Also, were looking at this guys criminal history now....after the fact. It doesn't play a role in the confrontation. Did Sr walk out there with the gun in his hand? We don't know but if he did and I was the other guy I'd take that as a threat. So who would be right here? Me for reacting to a threat it him seeing me as a threat reacting to his threat?
I'm not saying the guy in the orange shirt is a stand up citizen but I don't know who's who in the 2min video
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It's one thing to walk away from a meth head, trailer trash WWF retard who is making threats to kill you, but it's another thing to live next door or down the street from one. Walking away only teaches them that "they won" and they can do anything they want. There was no "walking away" from this tard.
Instead of throwing his garbage away like everyone else, he was putting his shit in their dumpster essentially trying to force them to pay for his garbage (literally and figuratively). He obviously didn't catch on when they removed his garbage and returned it to his property, and rather than take the hint and stop screwing with people he came down to actually start some shit because he didn't get his way this time.
Clearly the Millers knew this guy was a problem and going to continue to be a problem so they came armed. The guys arrest record tells me they did the right thing. Howard expected to get his way through intimidate alone and when that didn't work he threatened them with a bat. And as people are fond of saying when dumbshits do similar stuff with cops "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
I fully understand the point you are making, and I'm glad you don't live near anyone like this and you don't have to deal with this kind of crap on a daily basis. I used to live in downtown Ft. Lauderdale and saw it all the time, if people think they can get away with messing with you, they absolutely will. Finally saved up enough to move to a more "working class" neighborhood but with the Oxy / Heroin problem of the last few years combined with the housing market crash we went from "working class" to "heroin addicted redneck POS" and it got so bad I moved to another state because it was only going to be a matter of time before somebody pushed too far and crossed that deadly force threshold.
So it really wasn't about a mattress or a dumpster, it was about a violent, aggressive criminal who saw the Millers (and probably just about everyone else) as nothing more than another mark and they probably were putting up with all kinds of shit, including death threats on a weekly basis.
Trust me when I tell you it gets old.
I don't care if it was a million altercations, stepping outside with a gun in hand ..... in that moment you'd be the one threatening.
Except if they are ****ing with your shit. Are you gonna stand inside and call the cops while they vandalize your house, car or whatever? How many times have they called the cops and pretty much nothing happened? Do you think he actually got arrested every time he messed with someone?
When I step out with a gun to prevent a property crime or to confront an aggressive individual on my property I am not the one "threatening", I'm simply bringing a means of defense. But do you realize what it takes for me to even consider having to go confront somebody on my property with a weapon in hand? It takes a known history of that person being a violent, confrontational ahole who will never listen to reason and I suspect that is Howard in a nutshell.
Not saying I want to live next door to the Millers, they clearly have some issues as well, but they were giving this guy all kinds of chances. Literally all he had to do was take his garbage and go home. The Millers weren't even seeking an apology, they just wanted him to keep his shit in his yard and stop screwing with them. If he could do that, he'd still be alive talking trash from his yard right now.
Good grief it doesn't matter. You can't walk up to someone with a gun drawn because he may verbally accost you. Even if the guy is a douchebag, you can't expect someone to not react to that. If you walked up to me like that id probably go off on you too. In the end you're the one that came up to me first.
Well are we on my property or yours? If we are on your property you are absolutely correct, but given that they are standing next to the Millers dumpster, seems like they are on the Millers property or at least near their property (ie the dumpster).
Seriously what would you do if you had a neighbor who literally began to dump his garbage on your front lawn? After all your attempts to talk to him result in "F U, I'll kick your ass you effin faggot" and it keeps happening? How about if every time you call the police he claims innocence and says "not my garbage, I didn't do it" and then starts to threaten you for calling him in.? How about if every time you come home from work something new is messed with or destroyed on your property and there is a new pile of garbage?
At what point do you stop being reasonable because that only works with reasonable people?
Btw, I'm genuinely happy for you that you really cannot relate to this kind of stuff. Sadly I've lived with it more than a few times dealing with drug addicted neighbors and once they step over certain lines the rules change. Had them threaten to burn my house down, kill my dog, wreck my car, etc. At that point every time they try to mess with me or my property, I'm armed and I have an expectation to probably have to kill them.
I realized in downtown Ft. Lauderdale I was the odd man out as I wasn't a drug dealer, gang banger or a crack head so I simply couldn't ever win at the end of the day. And when Pompano changed to "mostly heroin addicted rednecks" I came to a similar conclusion and just bailed on Florida completely.
But I'm done moving. So far my neighbors seem to be well educated, hard working folks in a very nice area so all my interaction with them is to wave hello when I see them.
I'm betting you wouldn't last a month living next door to someone like Howard. The day he tells you he's gonna kill your wife or something along those lines will be the day you catch on.
Exactly. Not even in the same solar system for comparison sakes.
We don't know what it was about but how about de-escalating the situation by walking away. Police don't have the luxury to walk away
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Some of the responses here, scare me as much as the idiots in the video. We have so few facts, and no history of prior relationships in this event.
One thing for sure. I can't think of any trash, in any alleyway in America that is worth dying for. Both sides were idiotic and displayed the same type of behavior that the anti-gunners love to use against us.
I want to see the toxicology report for Aaron. As a known Meth Head I too would not confront him unarmed. Especially if I was a 67 year old man. I also would like a honest LEO opinion of the situation that most are suggesting......
Mr Miller walks away and calls the police. LEO shows up and Mr Miller say that Aaron put a mattress into the dumpster he was renting. The question Aaron and he says he has no idea what they are talking about and the old man is crazy.
Question- What will the LEO do next? Would it be #1 or #2?
1. Get the forensic team to go all CSI and determine who's mattress it is?
2. Tell Mr Miller that Aaron denies it and tells him to fill a report that will never really be looked at as it will be chalked up to crazy White Trash neighbors fighting?
Well? Seriously, what would the most realistic outcome be?
The way the dude in the orange shirt was screaming like a maniac would, if I was there, make me assume he was hopped up on drugs. The dude was completely off his rockers. I would not have let him get within five yards of me with a baseball bat.
The backstories in the news articles all come from his wife. I'm not about to put any stock in those stories.
I'm amazed that they were charged with murder. While it's a stupid situation by all accounts, this dude that got shot is plainly a complete psychopath. If it hadn't happened in this alley it was practically inevitable later on.
They knew this guy was dumping his trash in their dumpster, and a confrontation was necessary in order to prevent future instances. They knew the guy was batshit(no pun intended) and wisely decided to come armed. If they didn't confront him, he would continue to dump his shit there. If they showed up without weapons, he would have either bashed the dad's head in, or cuss them out and not stop. If they called the cops, he likely would have retaliated against them. By the way, he had litterally been charged with retaliation like 4 ****ing times
Per usual, the back story brings things into context as how/why it happened, even though it didn't necessarily need to happen that way.
Awful lot of escalation going on in that video... from both sides.
Here's how this would have gone better-
Trashman makes threats about deadly harm.
MIller 1 uses his own cell to call police while Miller 2 moves to a clear angle to cover Trashman just in case.
I think this would have had one of two outcomes- Trashman would not want another run-in with coppers (now that we know an arrest record after the fact) and backs off, or after having deadly threats recorded by wife (and perhaps even in background of 911 call if lucky), Trashman assaults Miller on phone with 911, and is then shot by Miller 2 due to deadly threats being made. Wife's video of altercation would be clear cause in this case.
But no.... everyone just escalates everything more.
Further, it's pretty clear they went out with the guns. In which case- the question is, was there previous altercations/threats from Trashman? How many times did this happen before that day, or was it a first time (and if so why wasn't one of them on the phone with 911)? And is the trash bin/area ON their property, or owned by them?
If "yes" to any of that, it may mitigate the situation some for the shooters, but that was still some poor decision making all around... Fighting over garbage...FML.
(I say as I calmly armchair commando the shit out of the situation after the fact).
ramairthree
09-22-18, 18:25
I guess anyone could end up in a video like this.
If I walk to my mailbox with no shirt on, which I guess would officially be off my property,
And some dude is shitting in my mail box,
And I say, dude, quit shitting in my mailbox, I knew it was you, don’t ever come back to my mail box and shit in it again.
Then he starts yelling and threatening to kill me, and starts charging me, but stops as I draw, so I tell him to leave,
But he keeps yelling and threatening to kill me.
I am not turning my back on him. I am not walking away backwards. I don’t have a phone on me.
Then he grabs a bat and charges me again.
And gets a couple in the box.
Now I am up for murder one?
While the kid was a dipshit, the guy with the pistol, at first glance, does not appear to be a murder one candidate.
FlyingHunter
09-22-18, 18:54
My takeaway from this event is an old one...Shotguns at close range are showstoppers.
My takeaway from this event is an old one...Shotguns at close range are showstoppers.
Might be low tech but physics don't care.
Coal Dragger
09-22-18, 19:38
Clint Smith sums it up pretty well:
https://youtu.be/b4sVQ_ZwI04
Clint Smith sums it up pretty well:
https://youtu.be/b4sVQ_ZwI04
He's got such a way with words, I love it!
I guess anyone could end up in a video like this.
If I walk to my mailbox with no shirt on, which I guess would officially be off my property,
And some dude is shitting in my mail box,
And I say, dude, quit shitting in my mailbox, I knew it was you, don’t ever come back to my mail box and shit in it again.
Then he starts yelling and threatening to kill me, and starts charging me, but stops as I draw, so I tell him to leave,
But he keeps yelling and threatening to kill me.
I am not turning my back on him. I am not walking away backwards. I don’t have a phone on me.
Then he grabs a bat and charges me again.
And gets a couple in the box.
Now I am up for murder one?
While the kid was a dipshit, the guy with the pistol, at first glance, does not appear to be a murder one candidate.
I'm not arguing with your premise - I just don't think stand your ground laws were put in place with the thought of justifying shooting someone after a 2 minute something verbal argument, where up to the point that someone gave the dead idiot a baseball bat, the only folks displaying lethal force were the two shirtless morons.
That isn't an immediate need for action in my book, there was plenty of time to think of alternative courses of action which would have resulted in a non-lethal outcome.
Need not retreat language does not mean can not retreat when it is tactically sound.
Everyone wants to count coup, but ultimately it is a pain in the ass financially and inconvenience wise to shoot someone - legit or not, especially when you could have walked away from the confrontation. No way it doesn't cost you money and take up a lot of your time.
Awful lot of escalation going on in that video... from both sides.
Here's how this would have gone better-
Trashman makes threats about deadly harm.
MIller 1 uses his own cell to call police while Miller 2 moves to a clear angle to cover Trashman just in case.
I think this would have had one of two outcomes- Trashman would not want another run-in with coppers (now that we know an arrest record after the fact) and backs off, or after having deadly threats recorded by wife (and perhaps even in background of 911 call if lucky), Trashman assaults Miller on phone with 911, and is then shot by Miller 2 due to deadly threats being made. Wife's video of altercation would be clear cause in this case.
But no.... everyone just escalates everything more.
Best answer. Really the Father/Son duo should be put down for felony stupid for killing stupid. Did they need to go that far over a mattress? I know the the stand your ground types (I do believe in it) will say he had a right to shoot. Best thing the Father/Son should of done is A. Put clothes on. B. Call the cops and let them deal with Johnny Dirtbag.
The fight could have been avoided in the first place. On the upside the gene pool just got a bit shallower.
Works for me.
It's one thing to walk away from a meth head, trailer trash WWF retard who is making threats to kill you, but it's another thing to live next door or down the street from one. Walking away only teaches them that "they won" and they can do anything they want. There was no "walking away" from this tard.
Instead of throwing his garbage away like everyone else, he was putting his shit in their dumpster essentially trying to force them to pay for his garbage (literally and figuratively). He obviously didn't catch on when they removed his garbage and returned it to his property, and rather than take the hint and stop screwing with people he came down to actually start some shit because he didn't get his way this time.
Clearly the Millers knew this guy was a problem and going to continue to be a problem so they came armed. The guys arrest record tells me they did the right thing. Howard expected to get his way through intimidate alone and when that didn't work he threatened them with a bat. And as people are fond of saying when dumbshits do similar stuff with cops "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
I fully understand the point you are making, and I'm glad you don't live near anyone like this and you don't have to deal with this kind of crap on a daily basis. I used to live in downtown Ft. Lauderdale and saw it all the time, if people think they can get away with messing with you, they absolutely will. Finally saved up enough to move to a more "working class" neighborhood but with the Oxy / Heroin problem of the last few years combined with the housing market crash we went from "working class" to "heroin addicted redneck POS" and it got so bad I moved to another state because it was only going to be a matter of time before somebody pushed too far and crossed that deadly force threshold.
So it really wasn't about a mattress or a dumpster, it was about a violent, aggressive criminal who saw the Millers (and probably just about everyone else) as nothing more than another mark and they probably were putting up with all kinds of shit, including death threats on a weekly basis.
Trust me when I tell you it gets old.
Anyone who doesn't "get it" needs to read this over and over again until they "get it". The tard got smoked because he was a tard who assaulted someone who had a "better" weapon than he did. Don't bring a knife, or a bat for that matter, to a gunfight. Someone said it earlier, play stupid games and win stupid prizes.
I guess anyone could end up in a video like this.
If I walk to my mailbox with no shirt on, which I guess would officially be off my property,
And some dude is shitting in my mail box,
And I say, dude, quit shitting in my mailbox, I knew it was you, don’t ever come back to my mail box and shit in it again.
Then he starts yelling and threatening to kill me, and starts charging me, but stops as I draw, so I tell him to leave,
But he keeps yelling and threatening to kill me.
I am not turning my back on him. I am not walking away backwards. I don’t have a phone on me.
Then he grabs a bat and charges me again.
And gets a couple in the box.
Now I am up for murder one?
While the kid was a dipshit, the guy with the pistol, at first glance, does not appear to be a murder one candidate.
Ah, someone who "gets it". ;)
Clint Smith sums it up pretty well:
https://youtu.be/b4sVQ_ZwI04
He's got such a way with words, I love it!
That clip and the absolute truth by Clint Smith pretty much made my day.
Everyone wants to count coup, but ultimately it is a pain in the ass financially and inconvenience wise to shoot someone - legit or not, especially when you could have walked away from the confrontation. No way it doesn't cost you money and take up a lot of your time.
I suspect the Millers had probably been "walking away" from that confrontation for a few months before it finally came to a head.
And it didn't cost Cleveland Murdock a dime, he was never even arrested.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-17/news/fl-pompano-road-rage-20100916_1_road-rage-florida-law-mike-dutko
I suspect the Millers had probably been "walking away" from that confrontation for a few months before it finally came to a head.
And it didn't cost Cleveland Murdock a dime, he was never even arrested.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-09-17/news/fl-pompano-road-rage-20100916_1_road-rage-florida-law-mike-dutko
The list the other way - in terms of costing time and money is much longer.
I'm not averse to shooting folks that need to be shot, but, for lack of a better term, the father and son entrapped the moron. They are examples of folks I despise, folks who suddenly grow a pair because they have a gun, or a badge, and usually someone with them.
The guy's with the guns should have had shirts on.
I agree. Nasty! They should go to jail for that alone! Why no sound?
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I agree. Nasty! They should go to jail for that alone! Why no sound?
I had sound on the clip I played.
The whole video I was thinking of thise Seinfeld episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfONNfAjyrc
I had sound on the clip I played.
It worked for me in YouTube but not Tap Talk.
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The list the other way - in terms of costing time and money is much longer.
I'm not averse to shooting folks that need to be shot, but, for lack of a better term, the father and son entrapped the moron. They are examples of folks I despise, folks who suddenly grow a pair because they have a gun, or a badge, and usually someone with them.
They didn't entrap Howard, in fact he could have walked away at any time. In fact Miller Sr. was calmly telling him to "back off." The Millers weren't the ones getting in anyone's face making death threat after death threat, that was Howard.
Howard could have literally taken his trash and gone home and that would have been the END of it. The Millers removed his trash and returned it to his property. He is the one who dragged his trash back to the Millers.
I'm actually becoming amazed that anyone can't clearly see who the aggressor here is. Howard wasn't some hapless moron who feel victim to the Millers elaborate "kill a dumbass" scheme. Simply put the Millers got tired of his shit, drew a line, warned him about the line, calmly told him not to cross the line and Howard promptly jumped over the line with a baseball bat.
Howard created the problem, he is literally the only one who could have made it go away.
The problem is you are probably a reasonable person. So let me ask you this. Have you ever used someone else's dumpster to get rid of your trash at their expense? And if you did and got caught, would you become violent and aggressive? Furthermore, if you decided you were going to try and force them to accept your garbage and found both of them armed, would you really stand there and make death threats and then attack them with a baseball bat?
Do you not see the clear pattern of violent and aggressive behavior that you probably wouldn't even dream of ever engaging in? And more importantly, how long would YOU endure somebody like Howard living a couple houses away who felt within his rights to use your dumpster anytime he felt like it and threatened your life when you objected?
After a couple instances of the police doing nothing and advising you "He's always a problem, just try to ignore him" then what?
The list the other way - in terms of costing time and money is much longer.
Also wanted to take this one on it's own. In the example I provided it didn't cost Murdock anything. Didn't cost him a dime, didn't cost him any time. He was never arrested, he was released from the scene and he was never charged with anything.
He shot and killed Patrick Lavoie even though Patrick Lavoie was completely unarmed and never physically even touched Murdock. But again, Lavoie crossed the deadly force threshold and that was the end of that.
They didn't entrap Howard, in fact he could have walked away at any time. In fact Miller Sr. was calmly telling him to "back off." The Millers weren't the ones getting in anyone's face making death threat after death threat, that was Howard.
Howard could have literally taken his trash and gone home and that would have been the END of it. The Millers removed his trash and returned it to his property. He is the one who dragged his trash back to the Millers.
I'm actually becoming amazed that anyone can't clearly see who the aggressor here is. Howard wasn't some hapless moron who feel victim to the Millers elaborate "kill a dumbass" scheme. Simply put the Millers got tired of his shit, drew a line, warned him about the line, calmly told him not to cross the line and Howard promptly jumped over the line with a baseball bat.
Howard created the problem, he is literally the only one who could have made it go away.
The problem is you are probably a reasonable person. So let me ask you this. Have you ever used someone else's dumpster to get rid of your trash at their expense? And if you did and got caught, would you become violent and aggressive? Furthermore, if you decided you were going to try and force them to accept your garbage and found both of them armed, would you really stand there and make death threats and then attack them with a baseball bat?
Do you not see the clear pattern of violent and aggressive behavior that you probably wouldn't even dream of ever engaging in? And more importantly, how long would YOU endure somebody like Howard living a couple houses away who felt within his rights to use your dumpster anytime he felt like it and threatened your life when you objected?
After a couple instances of the police doing nothing and advising you "He's always a problem, just try to ignore him" then what?
This is all thanks to the wife spewing a false narrative in the media about how this psycho was just an innocent family man who was murdered in cold blood by a couple of crazy rednecks. Then, the way the Millers look plays in favor of her narrative. People are judging them based on their visual appearance and the narrative that has been coupled with the video.
It all goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people's perception of reality.
I have a feeling the Millers will win in court, presuming that they can afford a decent lawyer.
ramairthree
09-23-18, 07:44
I'm not arguing with your premise - I just don't think stand your ground laws were put in place with the thought of justifying shooting someone after a 2 minute something verbal argument, where up to the point that someone gave the dead idiot a baseball bat, the only folks displaying lethal force were the two shirtless morons.
That isn't an immediate need for action in my book, there was plenty of time to think of alternative courses of action which would have resulted in a non-lethal outcome.
Need not retreat language does not mean can not retreat when it is tactically sound.
Everyone wants to count coup, but ultimately it is a pain in the ass financially and inconvenience wise to shoot someone - legit or not, especially when you could have walked away from the confrontation. No way it doesn't cost you money and take up a lot of your time.
That did not look like a safe situation to retreat from.
Crazy dude with his family threatening to kill you at close range is not someone I would have turned my back on.
And I don’t think Junior would have mastered a bounding peel retreat on the fly.
Nor do I feel obligated to use tactic to keep from being killed while I go away.
If Dad had been in a stylish but modest ensemble with a sports jacket, and junior watching his six quietly and professionally in khakis and polo shirt,
And psycho orange had been confronted over dumping environmentally toxic stuff into the preserved wetlands area of their estate, and they drew from concealment - would they be getting charged with murder one?
Outlander Systems
09-23-18, 09:37
Daily reminder that SteyrAug and ^RangerBro are speaking major truth up in here.
Coal Dragger
09-23-18, 09:42
Nope.
This is a prosecutor acting opportunistically expecting his prey to be incapable of fighting back legally. Typical shit heel lawyer mentality, see it all the time with prosecutors in SD, way over charge a defendant expecting a plea deal. Sat a trial a few years ago and it was clear that the prosecutor had over charged but couldn’t back down and the defendant (who is a dumbass in need of an ass whipping) would’ve plead guilty. So we acquitted him not because he was totally innocent, but because the prosecutor couldn’t prove the crime he had charged. Prosecutor wanted a felony conviction, but dumbass (defendant) didn’t commit felony shit he did misdemeanor shit.
Same prosecutor dismissed my wife as a juror once when he asked her if a case had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, she answered “Isn’t that your job?” instant dismissal from jury duty! LOL.
Gerry Spence (trial lawyer) was asked if he ever defended anyone who he knew was guilty, his reply was only once, a town bully who was confronted and killed by a Western sheriff who admitted to him he set out to take care of the problem. When asked why sheriff replied "Gerry sometimes a man just needs shooting", Gerry got him off. To me this looks like a similar situation, I would be very surprised if this was the first instance of the Miller's having trouble with Howard and hopefully they will get a good defense and be cleared. But we should never forget, even with all the so called legal protections at the end of the day sometimes there are still those that just need shooting.
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-18, 10:43
He's got such a way with words, I love it!
I love the wordsmithing and logic from salty 'Nam Vets.
I use to know a 'Nam Vet who was SF, he put it like this; "A round from a rifle in a leg is a wound, a round from a shotgun in a leg is an amputation".
That did not look like a safe situation to retreat from.
Crazy dude with his family threatening to kill you at close range is not someone I would have turned my back on.
And I don’t think Junior would have mastered a bounding peel retreat on the fly.
Nor do I feel obligated to use tactic to keep from being killed while I go away.
If Dad had been in a stylish but modest ensemble with a sports jacket, and junior watching his six quietly and professionally in khakis and polo shirt,
And psycho orange had been confronted over dumping environmentally toxic stuff into the preserved wetlands area of their estate, and they drew from concealment - would they be getting charged with murder one?
I don't think they're guilty of murder. They got arrested for running their mouths. If they had used different words and not antagonized him they'd be in a better situation. Listening to the guy with the bat my BP went up. There was no negotiating with him. There was no walking away. He was very serious in his threats to kill them. Getting in a pissing match over trash is assinine. Over 30 years ago I worked at a convince store in a very nice town. Our dumpsters were always locked. I wonder if they locked theirs.
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Moose-Knuckle
09-23-18, 11:16
They didn't entrap Howard, in fact he could have walked away at any time. In fact Miller Sr. was calmly telling him to "back off." The Millers weren't the ones getting in anyone's face making death threat after death threat, that was Howard.
Where's the "Like" button!
Howard could have literally taken his trash and gone home and that would have been the END of it. The Millers removed his trash and returned it to his property. He is the one who dragged his trash back to the Millers.
Howard didn't even have to take his trash back. All he had to do was not come at the senior citizen with a baseball bat after repeatedly screaming death threats at him AND his son. It really is that simple.
I'm actually becoming amazed that anyone can't clearly see who the aggressor here is. Howard wasn't some hapless moron who feel victim to the Millers elaborate "kill a dumbass" scheme.
I'm not.
That mentality is rampant in our society. The fact that this mindset surfaces on firearm centric forums that advocate self-defense, CCW, etc. no less, is proof positive just how far gone our society is. I almost want to start a thread with a poll to see how many members think Wyatt Earp was a murderer and or Frank Hamer.
In the example I provided it didn't cost Murdock anything. Didn't cost him a dime, didn't cost him any time. He was never arrested, he was released from the scene and he was never charged with anything.
He shot and killed Patrick Lavoie even though Patrick Lavoie was completely unarmed and never physically even touched Murdock. But again, Lavoie crossed the deadly force threshold and that was the end of that.
What would have been the outcome of this case in the mainstream media, the court of public opinion, and with the DoJ's Civil Rights Division had their races been reversed and Patrick Lavoie been black and Cleveland Murdock been white?
Moose-Knuckle
09-23-18, 11:21
Nope.
This is a prosecutor acting opportunistically expecting his prey to be incapable of fighting back legally. Typical shit heel lawyer mentality, see it all the time with prosecutors in SD, way over charge a defendant expecting a plea deal. Sat a trial a few years ago and it was clear that the prosecutor had over charged but couldn’t back down and the defendant (who is a dumbass in need of an ass whipping) would’ve plead guilty. So we acquitted him not because he was totally innocent, but because the prosecutor couldn’t prove the crime he had charged. Prosecutor wanted a felony conviction, but dumbass (defendant) didn’t commit felony shit he did misdemeanor shit.
Same prosecutor dismissed my wife as a juror once when he asked her if a case had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, she answered “Isn’t that your job?” instant dismissal from jury duty! LOL.
The bleeding heart culture is rife among DA's, it's even spreading out from the leftist urban population strongholds to rural America.
Should've shot the "wife" too. Just sayin`... We had a "neighbor" like that in CA, told them the next time I threw their crap back over the fence, it would be on fire. They disposed of it properly.
That did not look like a safe situation to retreat from.
Crazy dude with his family threatening to kill you at close range is not someone I would have turned my back on.
You don't do an about face and march away until giving the command to route step, you talk with them as you are either moving away or closing with them.
And I don’t think Junior would have mastered a bounding peel retreat on the fly.
Nor do I feel obligated to use tactic to keep from being killed while I go away.
Yet you use tactics to keep from being from being killed whenever you drive. Why is recognizing and dealing with danger so difficult for everyone in this case? Is it that folk's ego (not saying you, because I think you know better) won't allow them to back off?
If Dad had been in a stylish but modest ensemble with a sports jacket, and junior watching his six quietly and professionally in khakis and polo shirt,
And psycho orange had been confronted over dumping environmentally toxic stuff into the preserved wetlands area of their estate, and they drew from concealment - would they be getting charged with murder one?
As far as I'm concerned, if they baited him as they did in the video, yeah, a jury of their peers would get to decide that one. They played a major roll in creating the exigent circumstances which resulted in lethal force being used.
BTW: Where would they get the sports jackets? Ernie's Big and Tall or Sam's Short and Dumpy?
I'm sorry, you see them "baiting him"? The only one I seen doing the baiting is the career criminal dead guy. Did I count 29 or was it 30 arrests on his rap sheet?
Criminal mischief
Theft
Criminal trespass
Retaliation
Assault
Class B harassment 2014
Did you see his FB post stating he got the cops called because he told the mailman he might get shot? Also he admitted he couldn't calm down without his meds.
The article in the OP states Miller Sr. went outside with his gun in his pocket. Miller Sr. calmly tells him multiple times to back off. If he had any sense about him, he'd have taken the advice to back off but it's obviously not in his nature.
Trash, mattresses, who had on shirts and who didn't is irrelevant. After being threatened with death multiple times and Mr. Hothead making good on those threats, the Millers had enough. Sure it could've gone down differently but that could be said about most confrontations.
If you honestly think I'm going to let a 6'6" 225lb career criminal, who's probably hopped up on drugs or alcohol at minimum, beat my father, who is twice his age, with a baseball bat, you've got another thing coming.
What would have been the outcome of this case in the mainstream media, the court of public opinion, and with the DoJ's Civil Rights Division had their races been reversed and Patrick Lavoie been black and Cleveland Murdock been white?
Do you need to ask? And that is why nobody outside of Pompano Beach (5 minutes from my house) ever even heard of Murdock or Lavoie, and that is also why there wasn't "Justice for Patrick" protests on the news every night for 6 months.
And because somebody is bound to wonder given the context, I actually think this was a perfectly good shoot also. Had Lavoie not "road raged over a car he felt was following too close" and had he not tried to force his way into Murdocks car while screaming and ranting (hey I sense a trend) Lavoie would still be alive today, or at least wouldn't have gotten himself killed on that particular day.
You can't attack people who haven't done anything wrong, you can't go screaming and yelling at them like they are Marine recruits you are responsible for training and you can't literally threaten to kill people and later believe you can just say "I didn't really mean it, I was just angry." If you do, some people will take you at your word and end your life.
And if you think screaming at people, making threatening gestures and actually saying the words "I'm going to kill you" or something to that effect isn't crossing the deadly force threshold then you may want to rethink what behavior you consider acceptable. If I do those things, I understand I am escalating things and that somebody is probably going to get shot. And if all I have is a baseball bat, a substance abuse problem and a bad attitude, it's probably going to be me who gets shot which is why I don't walk around trying to f with people like the world is some kind of real life WWF nonsense.
Averageman
09-24-18, 07:55
There is something very weary about a 40 something man who is still displaying the emotional maturity of a school yard bully.
I think if your social skills and ability to interact with public servants and your neighbors so quickly devolves to threats of physical violence perhaps you need to either grow or in this case die.
Eventually someone is going to have had enough of your crap and regardless of their lack of fitness or even a shirt they killed this bully.
Some would say "Never bring a bat to a gun fight." in actuality, never bring a lack of control over your emotions to a fight might be more appropriate here.
ramairthree
09-24-18, 09:32
I would be cool with disengaging,
But I don’t have eyes on the back of my head and would not feel obligated to walk backwards down some trail busting my ass to break contact so I can get jumped.
If orange dipshit and his family are driving down the wrong side of the highway against traffic I am not going to put it in reverse.
It looked like kind of a hard situation to break contact from.
There were two of them, one can overwatch while the other moves, no need to fall back together.
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Whiskey_Bravo
09-24-18, 13:16
There were two of them, one can overwatch while the other moves, no need to fall back together.
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I am pretty sure shirtless guy #1 and #2 don't know about fall back tactics, especially considering younger shirtless guy seems to be behind shirtless guy #1 for a good part of the altercation. Actually I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of the public doesn't either.
Indeed. The same could be said for every other suggestion put forth in this thread too. The dudes' worked out of their "tool boxes" and what happened was the result. Now we get to sit back a MMQB that result.
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Averageman
09-24-18, 13:31
Indeed. The same could be said for every other suggestion put forth in this thread too. The dudes' worked out of their "tool boxes" and what happened was the result. Now we get to sit back a MMQB that result.
I dunno, the shirtless Father and Son are likely as not to lose everything they own defending this malarkey, if that a tool box, it's not one of those big red roll away tool boxes.
The other guy with the uncontrollable temper and multiple arrests and the mugshots? That dude was likely as not was living on some borrowed time, he just didn't get his due until that day.
Moose-Knuckle
09-24-18, 15:34
Do you need to ask?
Nope. It was rhetorical and not directed at you even though I quoted you.
And that is why nobody outside of Pompano Beach (5 minutes from my house) ever even heard of Murdock or Lavoie, and that is also why there wasn't "Justice for Patrick" protests on the news every night for 6 months.
Exactly. The only reason I even know about that incident is you posting it back in one of the many locked Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman threads.
And because somebody is bound to wonder given the context, I actually think this was a perfectly good shoot also. Had Lavoie not "road raged over a car he felt was following too close" and had he not tried to force his way into Murdocks car while screaming and ranting (hey I sense a trend) Lavoie would still be alive today, or at least wouldn't have gotten himself killed on that particular day.
You can't attack people who haven't done anything wrong, you can't go screaming and yelling at them like they are Marine recruits you are responsible for training and you can't literally threaten to kill people and later believe you can just say "I didn't really mean it, I was just angry." If you do, some people will take you at your word and end your life.
And if you think screaming at people, making threatening gestures and actually saying the words "I'm going to kill you" or something to that effect isn't crossing the deadly force threshold then you may want to rethink what behavior you consider acceptable. If I do those things, I understand I am escalating things and that somebody is probably going to get shot. And if all I have is a baseball bat, a substance abuse problem and a bad attitude, it's probably going to be me who gets shot which is why I don't walk around trying to f with people like the world is some kind of real life WWF nonsense.
No doubt you have more facts about this case since it was local to you. Not to derail this thread, but the question I have for this incident is why did the CCW guy even stop his car in the first place? He could have simply went around them. Someone road raging on me is not going to get me to pull over and stop for them.
Moose-Knuckle
09-24-18, 16:20
As far as I'm concerned, if they baited him as they did in the video, yeah, a jury of their peers would get to decide that one. They played a major roll in creating the exigent circumstances which resulted in lethal force being used.
On this public forum you have posted on multiple occasions an incident that involved one of your daughters.
The most recent example that I recall from six months ago:
Kind of amazing, when I went to the house where the thugs who had told my daughter to get back to Africa and pointed finger guns at her, they were also just kidding. Kind of amazing how that works when the person confronting you is more than willing and seemingly able to kick your ass.
It was funny, they never expected a white dude on a Harley would be bringing it to them about harassing a black girl walking home from school.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204784-African-Racism/page3
Now from one father to another I can't say that I have a problem with what you did per se.
However, if we apply the same judgement to you that you have applied to Mr. John Miller in this incident how is civil society supposed to conclude anything other than you were an "angry old White guy playing Billy Biker Badass" on his hog instead of calling the police had things gone pear shaped for you which they very well easily could have? I'll just ass-u-me you were armed when you rode up to their residence and confronted them creating exigent circumstances.
One thing I bear in mind about this Abilene shooting is that Mr. John Miller's son was also receiving death threats from Mr. Howard. As I father that ups the ante for me from a case where simply only my life is being threatened. And only lord Buddha knows how many times they have had similar encounters with Mr. Howard.
L-O-L!!! This vid is hilarious! Trash takes out the trash taking out the trash.
I was literally saying "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!" while watching it.
The chick was the best:
"Kick his asssss Cleatus! He ain't gonna shoot!"
*BOOM*
"NOOOOO!!! Cleatus!!!!"
Haha! ****ing classic trailer-trash chick behavior right there.
Meth's a hell of a drug
Moose-Knuckle
09-24-18, 17:15
L-O-L!!! This vid is hilarious! Trash takes out the trash taking out the trash.
I was literally saying "Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!" while watching it.
The chick was the best:
"Kick his asssss Cleatus! He ain't gonna shoot!"
*BOOM*
"NOOOOO!!! Cleatus!!!!"
Haha! ****ing classic trailer-trash chick behavior right there.
Meth's a hell of a drug
I LOLIRL when she said; "You ain't shoot'n my husbend." and a moment later; "AARON!? AARON!? AARON!? OMG!!!!"
If you honestly think I'm going to let a 6'6" 225lb career criminal, who's probably hopped up on drugs or alcohol at minimum, beat my father, who is twice his age, with a baseball bat, you've got another thing coming.
No, I don't think that at all. I credit it you with enough intellect to not let it get that far before you figured out a solution besides shooting.
Too many videos like this on media that anti-2nd are able to see and you'll be wishing that folks like these were more circumspect.
WickedWillis
09-24-18, 17:53
There are way too many people on here getting off on this shit.
Nope. It was rhetorical and not directed at you even though I quoted you.
Exactly. The only reason I even know about that incident is you posting it back in one of the many locked Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman threads.
No doubt you have more facts about this case since it was local to you. Not to derail this thread, but the question I have for this incident is why did the CCW guy even stop his car in the first place? He could have simply went around them. Someone road raging on me is not going to get me to pull over and stop for them.
He was behind him at a stop sign on a low traffic road and didn't realize he would need to defend himself until Lovie was literally trying to yank open his car door. When somebody exists the vehicle in front of you, you don't really know what they are shouting at first. They could be trying to tell you that you front bumper is about to fall off for all you know.
Pretty sure Murdock felt boxed in and it just didn't cross his mind to throw it in reverse and drive away through somebody's yard even though it could have worked. But his focus was probably on the big retard trying to get into his car while yelling death threats.
Moose-Knuckle
09-25-18, 10:47
There are way too many people on here getting off on this shit.
The meme majik on social media is down right stupendous.
Personally I don't think people are getting off to it, people are sick and tired of violent loud mouthed bullies so it's more akin to people acknowledging someone getting their just deserts. No one likes a bully.
IMHO, due to the size of the town I think when the Miller's go to trial they will have more than a few jurors who either had run-ins or knew someone who had run-ins with the deceased. One can almost hear the sigh of relief over the city of Abilene when the story broke, I bet Mr. Howard has more than a few former teachers, classmates, coworkers, ex-girlfriends, neighbors, etc. that thought to themselves; "Well old Aaron finally went and got himself all killed alright". If you really want to know his character, converse with the jail staff that has had to deal with him through the course of his adult life.
He was behind him at a stop sign on a low traffic road and didn't realize he would need to defend himself until Lovie was literally trying to yank open his car door. When somebody exists the vehicle in front of you, you don't really know what they are shouting at first. They could be trying to tell you that you front bumper is about to fall off for all you know.
Pretty sure Murdock felt boxed in and it just didn't cross his mind to throw it in reverse and drive away through somebody's yard even though it could have worked. But his focus was probably on the big retard trying to get into his car while yelling death threats.
And as Paul Harvey would have said; "...the rest of the story". Figured you knew the particulars and agree that case too was a good shoot. I got from one story that they had him pull over, flagged him down, etc. for a confrontation as he was driving behind them.
On this public forum you have posted on multiple occasions an incident that involved one of your daughters.
The most recent example that I recall from six months ago:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?204784-African-Racism/page3
Now from one father to another I can't say that I have a problem with what you did per se.
However, if we apply the same judgement to you that you have applied to Mr. John Miller in this incident how is civil society supposed to conclude anything other than you were an "angry old White guy playing Billy Biker Badass" on his hog instead of calling the police had things gone pear shaped for you which they very well easily could have? I'll just ass-u-me you were armed when you rode up to their residence and confronted them creating exigent circumstances.
One thing I bear in mind about this Abilene shooting is that Mr. John Miller's son was also receiving death threats from Mr. Howard. As I father that ups the ante for me from a case where simply only my life is being threatened. And only lord Buddha knows how many times they have had similar encounters with Mr. Howard.
Gee, Moosie, I missed this one. Here's the deal, the difference between this situation and the one you mentioned is simply this, I didn't need a pistol, or a shotgun, to give me the courage to confront those folks.
You would be ass-u-ming wrong. I did not have a firearm with me that day specifically because of the purpose of my visit to those folks.
I have had to go to another house to speak to a father and son about the son's behavior toward another daughter - he was stalking her at the swimming pool and had posted something on facebook which wasn't nice. I figured he was at that awkward age where you harass girls you like, and went to 'splain to him and dad that strategy was not working. She and he are friends now, not boyfrined/girlfriend just school chums. Nice generally works, and I did it without a gun.
In the post you quoted, I said a white dude on a Harley would be bringing it to them you said angry. Generally, angry isn't a good thing to solve problems or send messages. I rode my Harley because we live within the neighborhood. My Harley is garaged when I'm not on it, whereas my truck is parked out front, since the garage is full of brass, weights and motorcycles and if it wasn't my sife would have dibs. In the business, we call that planning or SA.
I stand by my analysis of this situation. If it had been an officer(s) behaving the same way toward the deceased moron, I'd be just as hard on their ass.
Moose, where do you actually live in Tejas? If you are near the Red River I'd split the difference and ride down to treat you to dinner, I'd leave my guns at home, you do what you want. I'll bet we'd have a good time and not kill anybody.
Gee, Moosie, I missed this one. Here's the deal, the difference between this situation and the one you mentioned is simply this, I didn't need a pistol, or a shotgun, to give me the courage to confront those folks.
Aaron Howard apparently thought he didn't need a pistol or shotgun for his courage when confronting those folks either. Just sayin'... ;)
Aaron Howard apparently thought he didn't need a pistol or shotgun for his courage when confronting those folks either. Just sayin'... ;)
Yep, there is that. I don't think Aaron shared shared my world view, though. And certainly not my sterling personality. (lobbed one up for MK)
Moose, where do you actually live in Tejas? If you are near the Red River I'd split the difference and ride down to treat you to dinner, I'd leave my guns at home, you do what you want. I'll bet we'd have a good time and not kill anybody.
I'm betting a big part of your disconnect is that you are a reasonable and rationale person. And that works when you are dealing with other reasonable and rationale people, problem is Howard wasn't either of those things and the Millers may or may not have been.
It's Jimmy Carter syndrome. He was a reasonable and rationale person and for the life of him couldn't understand why he couldn't bring peace to the middle east despite his best efforts. He genuinely didn't understand why he couldn't negotiate a reasonable solution to the Iran hostage crisis. It's because he wasn't dealing with other reasonable and rationale people but rather governments that only cared about getting their way and were willing to do anything to make sure they got their way. They aren't interested in being reasonable or rationale and that in a nutshell was Howard.
His problem is he finally ran up against two other people who had either given up trying to reason with him, didn't care to reason with him or just felt they didn't have anything to lose and they were willing to climb the escalation of force ladder with Howard to it's final conclusion.
Howard would have been a lot better off if he had simply thrown his garbage away like everyone else does. He's dead because he tried to make somebody else handle his garbage and because he didn't know when to walk away.
I don't think there is a single person on this forum who would have died in that incident. For starters we probably wouldn't be throwing our crap in other peoples dumpster. We also wouldn't go start shit over it and make threats of death against two visibly armed individuals of questionable restraint away from our property.
Averageman
09-26-18, 21:12
I'm not saying the Shirtless duo were right, but that asshole got what was coming to him, if not what he deserved.
In the 70's the drinking age was 18, which pretty much, because it was the 70's after all meant 16 with a decent mustache. If you wanted an education on human nature you went and drank some beer in a bar with alcoholics that were much older than you.
You met guys like this and you learned a few things.
You learned to avoid them.
You learned what they were capable of.
And most of all you learned about Karma, cause these guy always get what's coming to them. It's either one hell of a beat down, a bullet or a long, long stay in jail.
I'm not saying the Shirtless duo were right, but that asshole got what was coming to him, if not what he deserved.
In the 70's the drinking age was 18, which pretty much, because it was the 70's after all meant 16 with a decent mustache. If you wanted an education on human nature you went and drank some beer in a bar with alcoholics that were much older than you.
You met guys like this and you learned a few things.
You learned to avoid them.
You learned what they were capable of.
And most of all you learned about Karma, cause these guy always get what's coming to them. It's either one hell of a beat down, a bullet or a long, long stay in jail.
I wish that were true...
Adrenaline_6
09-27-18, 11:33
Gee, Moosie, I missed this one. Here's the deal, the difference between this situation and the one you mentioned is simply this, I didn't need a pistol, or a shotgun, to give me the courage to confront those folks.
You would be ass-u-ming wrong. I did not have a firearm with me that day specifically because of the purpose of my visit to those folks.
I have had to go to another house to speak to a father and son about the son's behavior toward another daughter - he was stalking her at the swimming pool and had posted something on facebook which wasn't nice. I figured he was at that awkward age where you harass girls you like, and went to 'splain to him and dad that strategy was not working. She and he are friends now, not boyfrined/girlfriend just school chums. Nice generally works, and I did it without a gun.
In the post you quoted, I said a white dude on a Harley would be bringing it to them you said angry. Generally, angry isn't a good thing to solve problems or send messages. I rode my Harley because we live within the neighborhood. My Harley is garaged when I'm not on it, whereas my truck is parked out front, since the garage is full of brass, weights and motorcycles and if it wasn't my sife would have dibs. In the business, we call that planning or SA.
I stand by my analysis of this situation. If it had been an officer(s) behaving the same way toward the deceased moron, I'd be just as hard on their ass.
Moose, where do you actually live in Tejas? If you are near the Red River I'd split the difference and ride down to treat you to dinner, I'd leave my guns at home, you do what you want. I'll bet we'd have a good time and not kill anybody.
I guess the real question would be "would you have been carrying if the "folks" you were confronting had a violent history like this guy did as well as already getting threatened and/or beat up by said "folks" before, and said "folks" have already done this before and have not shown any inkling of changing their ways even with police involvement?
I guess the real question would be "would you have been carrying if the "folks" you were confronting had a violent history like this guy did as well as already getting threatened and/or beat up by said "folks" before, and said "folks" have already done this before and have not shown any inkling of changing their ways even with police involvement?
No, I wouldn't have gone to the location at all, I would call the police.
I've taught concealed carry classes, one of the things I pretty adamantly believe is wrapped up in this statement: 'if you need a gun to go to your grocery stores, you don't need a gun, you need a new grocery store.' You shouldn't look at a concealed weapon as granting you a pass to do things you wouldn't normally do without a concealed weapon.
On the other hand, I have gone to many such situations, as a police officer, and no one was killed.
Sorry, we aren't going to agree. This was not a stand your ground case.
No, I wouldn't have gone to the location at all, I would call the police.
I've taught concealed carry classes, one of the things I pretty adamantly believe is wrapped up in this statement: 'if you need a gun to go to your grocery stores, you don't need a gun, you need a new grocery store.'
You obviously haven't been to the Food Lion at 15th Ave South in Myrtle Beach while on vacation have you? I'm sure the Myrtle Beach police would laugh at us if we would ask for a armed escort to the grocery store.
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-18, 17:15
Gee, Moosie, I missed this one.
Uh huh.
Here's the deal, the difference between this situation and the one you mentioned is simply this, I didn't need a pistol, or a shotgun, to give me the courage to confront those folks.
So you confronted a guy that was thirty years younger than you, taller than you, heavier than you, while he was screaming death threats at you and picked up a baseball bat to come at you with?
You would be ass-u-ming wrong. I did not have a firearm with me that day specifically because of the purpose of my visit to those folks.
I honestly don't know if that was dumb or smart, but it worked out for you that time.
I have had to go to another house to speak to a father and son about the son's behavior toward another daughter - he was stalking her at the swimming pool and had posted something on facebook which wasn't nice. I figured he was at that awkward age where you harass girls you like, and went to 'splain to him and dad that strategy was not working. She and he are friends now, not boyfrined/girlfriend just school chums. Nice generally works, and I did it without a gun.
When you were a LEO would you have advised father's of teenage girls who's daughters experienced similar incidents to go and confront the individuals who accosted them?
While you didn't brandish a firearm (never accused you of that, simply assumed you CCW) you did boast about intimidation in the post of your's that I quoted:
Kind of amazing, when I went to the house where the thugs who had told my daughter to get back to Africa and pointed finger guns at her, they were also just kidding. Kind of amazing how that works when the person confronting you is more than willing and seemingly able to kick your ass.
It was funny, they never expected a white dude on a Harley would be bringing it to them about harassing a black girl walking home from school.
Again, how would civil society and the court of public opinion have judged you had things went sideways and you were forced to defend yourself after confronting those oxygen thieves?
In the post you quoted, I said a white dude on a Harley would be bringing it to them you said angry. Generally, angry isn't a good thing to solve problems or send messages. I rode my Harley because we live within the neighborhood. My Harley is garaged when I'm not on it, whereas my truck is parked out front, since the garage is full of brass, weights and motorcycles and if it wasn't my sife would have dibs. In the business, we call that planning or SA.
I was not quoting you directly, I was inferring what the court of public opinion would label a white guy on a Harley who went and confronted someone and was forced to defend himself as a result of it.
I stand by my analysis of this situation. If it had been an officer(s) behaving the same way toward the deceased moron, I'd be just as hard on their ass.
Oh I have no doubt.
Moose, where do you actually live in Tejas? If you are near the Red River I'd split the difference and ride down to treat you to dinner, I'd leave my guns at home, you do what you want. I'll bet we'd have a good time and not kill anybody.
I appreciate the offer but thank you no. :cool:
I've taught concealed carry classes, one of the things I pretty adamantly believe is wrapped up in this statement: 'if you need a gun to go to your grocery stores, you don't need a gun, you need a new grocery store.' You shouldn't look at a concealed weapon as granting you a pass to do things you wouldn't normally do without a concealed weapon.
I always take a gun to the grocery store. It's not that anything is wrong with the grocery store, it's because I know problems don't schedule an appointment.
You can live in the best gated community and shop at the best grocery store in the county, the problem is criminals have feet and you can encounter them anywhere, including to and from the grocery store. You are advocated a "safe place" philosophy that simply doesn't exist and it has been proven to be unreliable with every "gun free zone" shooting in history.
It's also different when you are a badge, you have options that you can ultimately fall back on. If you call in that a belligerent, drug addicted, repeat offender is causing problems with illegal dumping it's going to get acted upon. The Millers probably don't get the same kind of response.
When I was in Ft. Lauderdale it didn't even matter that I was working as an instructor at the actual police academy. Responding officers would more or less say "Look where you live" and to a large extent they were correct. They weren't going to fix all the problems in downtown Ft. Lauderdale just because I happened to live there so I was largely on my own. Thankfully I was given a LOT of latitude to deal with the problems that found their way to my property.
Eventually I saved up enough to move, but not everyone has that option. There were a lot of people trapped behind enemy lines who bought their homes back in the 50s and 60s when that area was literally a freaking paradise but in the 90s they had to lock their doors at night and hide behind the curtains and hope people left them alone.
The things I saw were a real eye opener.
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-18, 17:26
I've taught concealed carry classes, one of the things I pretty adamantly believe is wrapped up in this statement: 'if you need a gun to go to your grocery stores, you don't need a gun, you need a new grocery store.' You shouldn't look at a concealed weapon as granting you a pass to do things you wouldn't normally do without a concealed weapon.
Then why do people need to own a firearm in the first place, much less CCW? Where by the way is this mythical place that no one ever falls prey to criminals?
On the other hand, I have gone to many such situations, as a police officer, and no one was killed.
So while on calls you have had guys bigger than you scream death threats at you and come at you with a baseball bat and you did not respond with deadly force? :blink:
Building on what Steyr said about problem not scheduling a appointment, A couple weeks ago I witnessed such an event..Without wasting alot of bandwith, it seems that 4 what I'm sure were crackheads, in two different vehicles, got into a shouting match in a parking lot, because one bumped into the others vehicle(both vehicles in question, truck, car, were probably worth about $1500, for the pair) anyway, one got out of the car and was arguing with the driver of the truck, meanwhile, the car drivers GF moved the car, and the truck started to pull away. At this point, car driver who had been arguing with the trucks driver, kicked the truck as it went by, and then ran around the back of the truck and stopped about 15' away..The trucks driver slammed on the brakes, ran around back of the truck, reached in the bed, pulled out a chainsaw, started it, and ran after the car driver who had kicked his truck, luckily for all, passenger in truck jumps out and phyiscally holds truck driver with a now screaming chainsaw back... I was off to one side about 20' away when this all unfolded, I was carrying, and had truck driver with chainsaw, caught up with the guy who kicked his truck, and started sawing on him, I think I would have shot him.. As it was, truck passenger got truck driver with chainsaw calmed down, got the saw away from him, put it away, and everybody left..I stood there amazed at what I just saw, and at the same time grateful I did'nt have to get involved....
ETA:
This was in a hotel parking lot I told the person at the front desk what had happened, as at least a dozen other people had seen it, they called the cops, who as it turns out knew all the crackheads involved, turns out, truck driver with saw, was a former crackhead, and was supposedly clean..trouble is they told me, he's batshit crazy, and, capable of anything....as they had to deal with him before..
Then why do people need to own a firearm in the first place, much less CCW? Where by the way is this mythical place that no one ever falls prey to criminals?
So while on calls you have had guys bigger than you scream death threats at you and come at you with a baseball bat and you did not respond with deadly force? :blink:
At this point you are being obtuse, I know you can read and understand the context in which things are written.
Good luck.
I always take a gun to the grocery store. It's not that anything is wrong with the grocery store, it's because I know problems don't schedule an appointment.
You can live in the best gated community and shop at the best grocery store in the county, the problem is criminals have feet and you can encounter them anywhere, including to and from the grocery store. You are advocated a "safe place" philosophy that simply doesn't exist and it has been proven to be unreliable with every "gun free zone" shooting in history.
It's also different when you are a badge, you have options that you can ultimately fall back on. If you call in that a belligerent, drug addicted, repeat offender is causing problems with illegal dumping it's going to get acted upon. The Millers probably don't get the same kind of response.
When I was in Ft. Lauderdale it didn't even matter that I was working as an instructor at the actual police academy. Responding officers would more or less say "Look where you live" and to a large extent they were correct. They weren't going to fix all the problems in downtown Ft. Lauderdale just because I happened to live there so I was largely on my own. Thankfully I was given a LOT of latitude to deal with the problems that found their way to my property.
Eventually I saved up enough to move, but not everyone has that option. There were a lot of people trapped behind enemy lines who bought their homes back in the 50s and 60s when that area was literally a freaking paradise but in the 90s they had to lock their doors at night and hide behind the curtains and hope people left them alone.
The things I saw were a real eye opener.
Steyr, Appreciate the comments. There is a reason that I live where I live, you pretty much nailed the crux of it.
Steyr, Appreciate the comments. There is a reason that I live where I live, you pretty much nailed the crux of it.
And there is a reason I recently moved out of Florida completely. But not everyone has that option. Those people who bought their dream house in downtown Ft. Lauderdale in the 1960s are simply stuck there. It's like a perverse form of house arrest where decent people who did nothing wrong can't really leave their house. When they leave during the day to buy groceries people break into it and rob it, if they try and go outside at night (even just into their yards) all kinds of bad things can happen.
The houses where people knew "old people who were afraid" lived had people literally sell crack in their front yard and I watched guys piss on the side of their house.
So when people get financially locked in they don't have the same options that you and I might. That means at some point people like the Millers need to deal with people like Howard.
If kids can't play nice while pissing in the pool, we can always shut this down.
Adrenaline_6
09-28-18, 08:03
No, I wouldn't have gone to the location at all, I would call the police.
I've taught concealed carry classes, one of the things I pretty adamantly believe is wrapped up in this statement: 'if you need a gun to go to your grocery stores, you don't need a gun, you need a new grocery store.' You shouldn't look at a concealed weapon as granting you a pass to do things you wouldn't normally do without a concealed weapon.
On the other hand, I have gone to many such situations, as a police officer, and no one was killed.
Sorry, we aren't going to agree. This was not a stand your ground case.
Like was mentioned before, the police have been involved with this guy multiple times and have solved nothing. This guy doesn't get and/or doesn't care about what they or you think, he is going to do what he is going to do. You can see it in the video. Now, I agree, if I know I will need a gun if I go to an area, I just wouldn't go to that area. I get that analogy, but this is a little different. He is bringing it to them by taking his garbage, dumping it in their dumpster and making them pay for it. It isn't a one time deal either, you can tell this has been going on for awhile, nothing has been done about it, both parties know nothing will be done about it, and everything has come to a head.
I am glad you don't live in an area where this type of situation exists, nor do I, but to apply our situation to someone else when they are totally different doesn't seem logical at all.
So again, your daughter is being hassled...police HAVE already been involved before, more than once....that guy comes to your house and resumes said behavior, not once, over and over again. You have told him to stop and he has pretty much given you and the police the finger and has threatened to kick your ass....again. The police haven't done a thing, has shown they aren't going to do anything, and this behavior continues. What now?
One thing I noticed while watching the video is, that it seems to me, that the bully (orange shirt) was attempting to move in close enough to grab the pistol, a classic criminal move, and was doing this by screaming and hollering, gesturing, in a attempt to divert attention, while moving in closer and closer, the idea being that once he's in close enough to take the pistol, kid with shotgun won't be able to take a shot. It also struck me, that the bully has had guns pointed at him before, as he did'nt seem too concerned.. IMO, he was going to make his move when he got shot. IMO, this was a good shoot, bully had threatend to kill both of the neighbors repeatedly, and once the baseball bat was introduced, it was game on. Trouble is, bully did'nt figure that these people would actually shoot, especally in front of his wife and kids. I'll bet he was thinking that once he had a bat in his hands they'd cower, and retreat.. The bully was clearly used to getting his own way by intimating people with his phyiscal size, and was'nt afraid to use violence to get it, if I had to guess, he had probably done so, all of his life. IMO, this time around, he bit off more than he could chew.. The neighbors had had enough of his sh#@, and they were'nt backing down.. One thing's for sure, he won't be dumping his trash in his neighbors dumpster again.. People like this bully only learn thru phyiscal pain, and in his case, due to his size, that did'nt happen very often, and he knew it, as he was probably careful who he picked on..IMO, the neighbors took out the trash for the last time..
It's a shame that people can't work something out instead of someone dying over a piece of sh*t mattress tossed in a yard. I tend to try to lower the tensions in potential conflict situations, but sometime you can't.
The last time I pulled a weapon in a self-defense situation was when I was pumping gas in my truck at a Shell station in Albuquerque on Central Avenue (old Route 66). I was just standing there pumping gas when this black guy started yelling profanities at me like he was crazy. He kept moving moving closer and closer, making threats, calling me names like he was out of his mind. I said nothing but watched him as he came within about 15 feet of me. I then put the pump on auto to keep filling while I opened the truck door and pulled out my Smith & Wesson Model 66 loaded with 158 grain .357 ammo. If had made any kind of aggressive move closer, I would have shot him on the spot. Rule of thumb; never let them get close enough to lay a hand on you.
Yep.
Other posters erroneously posted it was the father and son's trash can. According to news stories it was a community trash can. Could be that father and son thought dead guy was using more than his fair share.
One story I found reported that the 3 parties had not met before the encounter which resulted in the shooting.
On Friday, police said that when the first shots were fired, Howard had a bat in his hand but was about seven feet away from the Millers. After the first two shots, police said, Howard was unarmed, but the Millers fired again.
The father and were initially released on $25,000 bond. When the prosecutor found out he appealed and they are currently in jail on $250,000 bond. (delay of 20 days in that appeal, largely because the video got released - unknown to me if police had the video prior to this)
The dead guy had some kind of diagnosed explosive temper disorder.
The location and the way this unfolded does not fit into the stand your ground model: 1) the father and son approached dead guy, not vice versa; 2) there was no immediate threat that they needed to protect themselves from; 3) they played the adversarial role in both initiating (by throwing the mattress into the dead guys back yard - out of what has been described as a community dumpster) and escalating the situation by approaching as the dead man was putting the mattress in the dumpster - which was apparently located adjacent to the common alley way.
Based on all that they were, IMHO, correctly arrested so that the case go through the court system. Being arrested doesn't mean guilty. although I will be surprised if they don't either take a deal or get found guilty by a jury of their peers.
I'm done posting on this thread.
Good luck to all.
eightmillimeter
09-28-18, 13:14
You said it better than I can. I’m not saying it was a bad shoot, but I will say if you are carrying a deadly weapon, it is wise to do everything you can to avoid confrontation. It isn’t worth it (to me) to “have to” shoot someone over garbage.
Coal Dragger
09-28-18, 13:21
I think I posted that this was what it would look like if raccoons spoke English. I stand by that.
Three morons fighting over trash like raccoons.
If it is indeed a community dumpster, I stand corrected.. And, that changes everything, a community dumpster is just that, one used by everybody, in the community.. And, the Millers are not the dumpster police... If it's a community dumpster, in a alley why did these two care if their neighbor dropped off a matress at the dumpster? Is'nt that what it's for? I think these two just might have signed up for a long vacation, courtesy of the State of Texas...
If it is indeed a community dumpster, I stand corrected.. And, that changes everything, a community dumpster is just that, one used by everybody, in the community.. And, the Millers are not the dumpster police... If it's a community dumpster, in a alley why did these two care if their neighbor dropped off a matress at the dumpster? Is'nt that what it's for? I think these two just might have signed up for a long vacation, courtesy of the State of Texas...
From what I have read the Miller's rented a dumpster for home renovation reasons and Aaron wanted to put his trash and a mattress in it. And as someone that has rented a dumpster I can tell t that you pay at the end by weight. So they didn't want to pay for his crap.
Moose-Knuckle
09-28-18, 23:18
It's a shame that people can't work something out instead of someone dying over a piece of sh*t mattress tossed in a yard. I tend to try to lower the tensions in potential conflict situations, but sometime you can't.
The last time I pulled a weapon in a self-defense situation was when I was pumping gas in my truck at a Shell station in Albuquerque on Central Avenue (old Route 66). I was just standing there pumping gas when this black guy started yelling profanities at me like he was crazy. He kept moving moving closer and closer, making threats, calling me names like he was out of his mind. I said nothing but watched him as he came within about 15 feet of me. I then put the pump on auto to keep filling while I opened the truck door and pulled out my Smith & Wesson Model 66 loaded with 158 grain .357 ammo. If had made any kind of aggressive move closer, I would have shot him on the spot. Rule of thumb; never let them get close enough to lay a hand on you.
I recall you sharing that story before. It'a great case of excellent situational awareness on your part! The difference being of course the guy screaming at you backed off once he saw your roscoe. The guy in the Abilene shooting only intensified his tirade after seeing his potential victims firearms.
On Friday, police said that when the first shots were fired, Howard had a bat in his hand but was about seven feet away from the Millers. After the first two shots, police said, Howard was unarmed, but the Millers fired again.
A guy the size of and who has the temperament of Mr. Howard seven feet away while holding a baseball bat is a deadly threat. The first two shots IMHO were from Miller Sr.'s handgun, caliber unknown. Did he hit him? Even if he did Mr. Howard was still on his feet and posed a threat. Miller Jr. shot until threat was no longer a threat as I believe Miller Sr's handgun was knocked down after he was hit with the bat.
The dead guy had some kind of diagnosed explosive temper disorder.
And there it is.
Loud mouth bully who yells death threats and comes at his armed neighbor with a baseball bat is not responsible for his own actions and everyone else in the world has to walk on egg shells as they orbit inside his personnel universe. How dare the Millers not allow themselves to be bludgeoned to death, I mean just who do they think they are . . . :rolleyes:
If it is indeed a community dumpster, I stand corrected.. And, that changes everything, a community dumpster is just that, one used by everybody, in the community.. And, the Millers are not the dumpster police... If it's a community dumpster, in a alley why did these two care if their neighbor dropped off a matress at the dumpster? Is'nt that what it's for? I think these two just might have signed up for a long vacation, courtesy of the State of Texas...
As it has been posted here before, Mr. Howard the guy in the orange shirt who was screaming multiple death threats at his armed neighbors did not die as a result of where he chose to discard his used mattress. He died rather as a result of attacking his neighbor with a baseball bat.
Adrenaline_6
09-29-18, 20:06
I was under the impression that it was their dumpster also and this has been going on for awhile. This would change things a lot.
The dead guy had some kind of diagnosed explosive temper disorder.
lol! Well, now we know the cure!
I was under the impression that it was their dumpster also and this has been going on for awhile. This would change things a lot.
That is the assumption I made having seen this kind of thing more times than I care to talk about.
If this was any kind of community dumpster there would be 20 mattresses in it and if anyone complained that someone was using more than "their fair share" the person would reply "FU it ain't your dumpster in the first place" as they were walking away.
Been in my share of broke dick red neck hoods and I once watched a guy trim his trees and dump all the branches in an industrial dumpster that had been dropped off at the house across the street. The owner, who didn't live in the house, had decided to do some renovations and when he showed up the next day with contractors to start doing work his dumpster was already completely full of shit from three different houses. The guy with the tree actually denied the branches came from his property even though several houses watched him do it and there were drag marks on the street from his property to the dumpster, not to mention freshly trimmed trees of the exact same type.
I forget what it cost him to have a large (size of a two car driveway) industrial dumpster provided but it wasn't cheap and he ended up paying for it twice because the local shitbags all denied putting their crap in it. Another time, he had to knock on doors to find out who the two cars parked in his driveway belonged to because he wanted to park his boat at his property since it wasn't occupied. He told me later that one guy actually gave him shit for asking him to move his car and the owner of the car argued that "nobody even lives there" so he felt it was ok to park his car there.
People are stupid and they drive like shit.
LOL! Just an observation from my 64th birthday.
From what I have read the Miller's rented a dumpster for home renovation reasons and Aaron wanted to put his trash and a mattress in it. And as someone that has rented a dumpster I can tell t that you pay at the end by weight. So they didn't want to pay for his crap.
Ok so what's the story here, so far I've read in this thread that it was the Millers dumpster, then it was a community dumpster, then it's the Millers dumpster again.. so which is it? Because I think this is going to make alot of difference in court. If it was the Millers dumpster, then as far as I'm concerned, as bad as things worked out, they were in the right, They were being threatened with death by this guy,and he attempted to assult one of them with a bat before being shot, and killed. If it was a community dumpster, then, they may be in the wrong. Also if the bully did have some explosive temper disorder, then why did'nt he take steps to control it, as was pointed out, the world should'nt have to walk on eggshells around him because he can't control his temper.. Also, if he had been to treatment for it (I don't know if he had been or not) then, why did'nt he apply what he learned?
The sad thing is all of this could've been avoided if bully would've simply asked if he could dump the mattress, and offer the Millers say $10to help pay for it..the bully died stupidly, for nothing..
LMT Shooter
10-01-18, 09:55
.....Also if the bully did have some explosive temper disorder, then why did'nt he take steps to control it, as was pointed out, the world should'nt have to walk on eggshells around him because he can't control his temper.. Also, if he had been to treatment for it (I don't know if he had been or not) then, why did'nt he apply what he learned?
..
With all due respect, I am wanting to assume that you have zero experience in dealing with these types of folks. In my experience, without a good solid support system of either family or friends, these types of people are not going to do well. Even with help, it often does not go well for them.
Aaron Howard did say in the Facebook post that was in an earlier post here that he was taking meds, however.
Not sure I completely agree but just saw this video and thought of this thread.
https://youtu.be/EYhU_MZWmtE
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Moose-Knuckle
10-01-18, 13:24
With all due respect, I am wanting to assume that you have zero experience in dealing with these types of folks. In my experience, without a good solid support system of either family or friends, these types of people are not going to do well. Even with help, it often does not go well for them.
Aaron Howard did say in the Facebook post that was in an earlier post here that he was taking meds, however.
Mr. Howard has also been to drug rehab, he might be taking his SSRI's but the question begs to be asked what else is he taking with them....
Have you ever been to anger control therapy?
I have, when I was a child. The last time I was in a group was in the sixth grade. I was always the youngest in any of my groups lol. Often times it's the "family and friends" that are the problems as I learned from those sessions that "It takes two to argue". Mr. Howard's brother handed him the baseball bat instead of taking it away and defusing the situation. Mr. Howard's wife recorded the event on her cell phone and embolden him, never did she try to talk him down. With that said, Mr. Howard is responsible for his own actions as all humans are. My grandfather who saw enough shit during the Great Depression and then the European theater of WWII told me this sage advice when I was that anger kid; "If you let the other guy get you mad then he has already won". In my teens my father put it like this; "If you are not in control of your actions, who is?".
Aggression is a gift, it can be harnessed.
There is no excuse to scream death threats at someone over something as trivial as a discarded mattress, that was the hill Mr. Howard chose to die upon.
LMT Shooter
10-01-18, 17:46
Mr. Howard has also been to drug rehab, he might be taking his SSRI's but the question begs to be asked what else is he taking with them....
Have you ever been to anger control therapy?
I have, when I was a child. The last time I was in a group was in the sixth grade. I was always the youngest in any of my groups lol. Often times it's the "family and friends" that are the problems as I learned from those sessions that "It takes two to argue". Mr. Howard's brother handed him the baseball bat instead of taking it away and defusing the situation. Mr. Howard's wife recorded the event on her cell phone and embolden him, never did she try to talk him down. With that said, Mr. Howard is responsible for his own actions as all humans are. My grandfather who saw enough shit during the Great Depression and then the European theater of WWII told me this sage advice when I was that anger kid; "If you let the other guy get you mad then he has already won". In my teens my father put it like this; "If you are not in control of your actions, who is?".
Aggression is a gift, it can be harnessed.
There is no excuse to scream death threats at someone over something as trivial as a discarded mattress, that was the hill Mr. Howard chose to die upon.
When I wrote, "good solid support system of either family or friends," I was meaning good people being in that group. I may have chosen my words poorly. I watched the video, and I've seen enough firsthand to know what you're meaning about crappy friends & family being part of the problem, like in the video (an assumption on my part, I know, but I think you see it the same way based on your post). Most, but not all, folks will turn out very much like the folks who raised them, and find friends who are like themselves as they grow up.
With all due respect, I am wanting to assume that you have zero experience in dealing with these types of folks. In my experience, without a good solid support system of either family or friends, these types of people are not going to do well. Even with help, it often does not go well for them.
Aaron Howard did say in the Facebook post that was in an earlier post here that he was taking meds, however.
I beg your pardon..my wife is a drug/alcohol counsler..we also run a DUI camp, and in the past we also did anger management. I'm far from a expert like my wife is, and, I'm not a counsler,,,but I understand alot more than you give me credit for.. yes, these people often don't do well, and they often get little or no support at home, and that can be a big problem. But, lets also not forget, Howard himself was part of the problem here..If (and I don't know) he was going to, or had any counsling on his anger problem, he knew enough to avoid situations like this, and not to let them escalate. Instead, he let his anger explode,and overide any sense he had, especially when guns were produced, and he was told he would get shot if he continued with his aggresive behavior. The fact that his wife did'nt do anything to stop this, when she probably knew he had a problem, and instead just got the phone out and made a video, that, if things had went the other way, and he managed to beat the Millers half to death, with the bat, would have no doubt, have been proudly posted.. Sadly, that says alot about the wife.. and to your point, it's quite possible that she gave him little, if any support. By pulling the phone out when he was confronting the Millers, she was literally egging him on..My point is this.. there are no winners here, IMO, Howards wife bears some of the responsibilty, as she did litte to nothing to stop it, and, she had prior knowlege that her husband had a anger management issue. Howard, IMO, got himself killed, he was warned repeatedly, but, being the bully he was, and, I'd guess with a lifetime of intimating people with his physical size to get his way, played that card one time too many. All he had to do to defuse the situation was to shut up, and walk away...
LMT Shooter
10-01-18, 21:20
Ralph, I'm sincerely sorry if I misjudged you. Your post I quoted previously, particularly the last line I quoted, led me to want to assume, incorrectly, that you had never dealt with these types. I am no expert myself, just an observer. I will add that my experience working as a CO has led me to believe that the way these types interact with counselors, attorneys, and anyone else who can help them out of jail or prison, is often very different than the way they interact with the rest of the world. I've seen so many turds like Aaron Howard get out of jail by going to treatment, who end up right back in jail again & again that I'm highly jaded & cynical.
Ralph, I'm sincerely sorry if I misjudged you. Your post I quoted previously, particularly the last line I quoted, led me to want to assume, incorrectly, that you had never dealt with these types. I am no expert myself, just an observer. I will add that my experience working as a CO has led me to believe that the way these types interact with counselors, attorneys, and anyone else who can help them out of jail or prison, is often very different than the way they interact with the rest of the world. I've seen so many turds like Aaron Howard get out of jail by going to treatment, who end up right back in jail again & again that I'm highly jaded & cynical.
We're good!!
I understand what you're saying, and, you're right.. this happens all the time. One of the reasons my wife quit doing the anger management program she started, was because most of the clients (who were court ordered to attend) were simply going through the motions, as most of them had a Domestic Violence charge hanging over their head, and wanted it reduced.. That, and most did'nt show up.. There were a few folks(not many) who did show up, and who figured out, that, yeah, they have a problem, and actually asked for help, these people my wife bent over backwards for, and helped them change their life.. But,what do you do with turds like Aaron Howard? Sadly, not much, not until he commits a real crime like armed robbery, murder etc, something that can get him locked up for a couple decades. Anger management programs, like alot of other programs, can only help if the person wants help, and wants to change. In Howards case, he's been in and out of jail, so it was no longer a deterrant, but,simply an inconvenience, and these are the worst kind of criminals.. those that know that they can make it in prison/jail at that point, for them, prison/jail is just a big time out, they know they'll get out sooner or later, and when they do, they go right back to what they were doing.. In a way, as crude as it sounds, the Millers may have done everybody in the neighborhood a favor..It's going to be very interesting to see how the Miller/Howard case plays out in court...
sundance435
10-02-18, 12:45
Not the best contact and cover, at least until (I presume) the bat comes out. That, and the shirts.
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