View Full Version : ...and the M60 machine gun still lives (apparently)
From today's DoD contract awards:
U.S. Ordnance,* McCarran, Nevada, was awarded a $13,499,098 firm-fixed-price contract to procure M60 weapon systems, spare barrels, conversion kits, training, and spare parts. Bids were solicited via the internet with one received. Work locations and funding will be determined with each order, with an estimated completion date of Sept. 25, 2023. U.S. Army Contracting Command, New Jersey, is the contracting activity (W15QKN-18-D-0167).
It doesn't indicate an FMS award, but I thought the M60 was ancient history by now?
eightmillimeter
09-26-18, 20:18
I think they may be for foreign aid possibly or some other non first line situation
RetroRevolver77
09-26-18, 20:23
deleted
It does look more modern:
http://www.usord.com/weapons/m60e6
Averageman
09-26-18, 21:03
It does look more modern:
http://www.usord.com/weapons/m60e6
That actually doesn't even resemble the turn I had envisioned. Having put about a million rounds through M240's though, I still have to ask "Why?".
The M60 isn't a bad gun, there are just better options.
Seals were using M60E4s to great effect until recently. This is the first time I've seen the E6.
militarymoron
09-26-18, 21:11
That actually doesn't even resemble the turn I had envisioned. Having put about a million rounds through M240's though, I still have to ask "Why?".
Because Rambo.
LAV did a video in the M60E6 a few years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIIicHWwFQo
The_War_Wagon
09-26-18, 21:36
Because Rambo.
Buddy of mine in KY 20 years ago was a retired Army MSG (Vietnam), and belonged to my gun club. His son played linebacker at the Univ. of Missouri at the time (6' 5" and built like, well... a college linebacker!). One day at the range, he "Rambo'd" (one-armed) his dad's M-60. The result was the typical cross, between hilarious and awesome. :jester: I just wish I had the... ahem... GUNS, to do it myself! ;)
I remember gun writer Peter Kokalis calling the M60 one of the worst pieces of junk ever inflicted on the US military.
The E4 and E6 are very much improved over the early M60's Kokalis had his hate on. Check out the Vickers video, U.S. Ordnance basically PIP'ed all the faults out of the weapon.
Here is a video of an MK 43 (E4) firing a 850 round burst in 1 min 45 sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBNGgu0qGlQ
Like any other weapon the M60 is a dog when just plain worn out. I saw eight depot re-build M60s where each gun couldn't go through a 200-round belt without choking, where two MAG58s shot the entire ammo allotment.
I've seen M60E4s and 6s that were just as impressive as M240s/MAG-58s.
The Danish Army has adopted the M60E6, but in this particular instance it looks like there's some sort of issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vx_MbwvMOg
The REAL question is which LPVO do you run on it??? :meeting:
The REAL question is which LPVO do you run on it??? :meeting:
Elcan.
ramairthree
09-27-18, 11:53
Most of my first enlistment was spent with either a 1911A1 in leather flap holster or M9 in a Bianchi hanging from my LCE with an M60 in my arms.
I was lucky, I had a Litton instead of a PVS-4. This was the era when maybe one person had PVS-5s per squad for part time use.
The M60 was like a Harely of the era. It required a significant amount maintenance to keep in top running order. And gunner skill.
There are some inherent aspects to the design, that like the M9, keep it from certain steps for modernization and improvement. Like the 1911, it is prone to much more effort to keep reliable in harsh conditions in comparison to some other options.
When I was stuck on a Bn Staff at 7th Group as a newer Captain, after heavy range days I was unaware that part of the current command elements hazing was giving the 60 to the new guy to clean. I had just signed in prior to the major range week. (The command and staff element together cleaned the crew served weapons everyone had used as a group instead of making their personnel do it)
They were shocked to seem me break it down, to include feed tray cover, bolt, etc. when I asked the armored for a new extractor because of a stress fracture I found I was informed the gun had been down and neither the armored or some 18Bs had figured out was up. (It was a very subtle finding, but the exact reason for all the FTEs)
The BC, XO, S3, CSM, Company Commaders and SGMs all had serious WTF expressions. Being a former Ranger BN 60 Gunner, and also a Weapons Squad leader in a NG Infantry unit that ran the Bn’s 60 ranges each summer AT, plus shot the 60 for state AG matches when I went to college had set me up for a fortuitous coincidence that made a hell of a first impression.
Despite its flaws, and the fact that it was replaced, I would still feel a little wistful heading out on target with the Rangers with their modernized FN MAGs.
And, despite its flaws, if they were priced more like 10K I would buy one, back fill a buttpack on a GP strap with five belts, and live like a king.
RetroRevolver77
09-27-18, 12:36
delete
It should also be noted that the M60E6 beat out the HK MG5 in the Danish trial. An M60 E4 or E6 is on my short list.
Looks like the request is for the E4 and E6 variants:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=27c89386be253c79704b2dc33757c07c&tab=core&_cview=1
Also looks like for FMS, "Therefore, awarding the requirement to any source other than US Ordnance would fail to fulfill FMS and OGAs’ customer requirements. The M60E4 and M60E6 MGs cannot be procured competitively since the TDPs for both weapon systems are fully owned by US Ordnance and the Government does not have any licensing rights to compete this requirement. In addition, US Ordnance has not licensed any other vendors to manufacture the M60E4 and M60E6 MGs. Therefore, awarding the requirement to any source other than US Ordnance would fail to fulfill FMS and OGAs’ customer requirements." The M60E4 and M60E6 MGs are already currently in use by the U.S. Army’s FMS & OGAs’ customers. Procurement of a different weapon system would not accomplish customers’ requirements.
Unsure what the definition of "recent" is... It has been over a decade since NSW, aka "Navy SEALs" adopted the mk46/48 and dropped the m60. The M240 was an interm, and heavy, fix. Someone is wrong in their assumptions.
IMO the US Ord M60 variants are much more usable than the FN MK48. The recoil impulse of the M60e6 is significantly more steady and predictable making hits much easier.
For me "recently" is until the last time I saw them use anything else, which would have been over 10 years ago on a history channel documentary where I first saw the E4.
For those interested the price for a M60E6 MG with Stellite® lined barrel and 1 spare barrel is $11,693.36 in this contract. Spare barrels alone go for $1,961.66 but that is Stellite® lined.
ramairthree
09-29-18, 10:51
For those interested the price for a M60E6 MG with Stellite® lined barrel and 1 spare barrel is $11,693.36 in this contract. Spare barrels alone go for $1,961.66 but that is Stellite® lined.
I hereby declare my property The Free Republic of RamairDom and desire to purchase one form my army.
Damn, how cheap MGs could be without a closed registry.
just a scout
09-29-18, 19:50
God is love to have or a dozen. Back in 89 we were training for Boselager and Regiment gave us the end of year ammo. 20,000 rounds. We melted three guns but damn was that fun.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Cagemonkey
09-29-18, 20:42
Having worked on M60E3's in the Marine Corps in the 90's, I'm familiar with its weaknesses. You can Put Lipstick on a Pig, but its still a Pig. These guns shoot nice and have a very comfortable and Controllable Recoil. The problem is with its Mechanical Durability and Longterm reliability. These guns will run for a while until parts breakage and unserviceability issue take their toll. M240's will outrun a M60 all day long. For short durations the M60 is a good gun provided you have logistics. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m240g-history.htm Maybe some Metallurgical changes were made to the Bolt, Springs etc., but I'm doubtful that other than superficial changes, the basic operating system and parts are unchanged. If you want a light and reliable 7.62 MG, get a PKM, HK MG5, SS77 or Negev NG 7.
I hereby declare my property The Free Republic of RamairDom and desire to purchase one form my army.
Damn, how cheap MGs could be without a closed registry.
I can remember in 84' when M16s were basically $200 more than AR15s and 95% of people seeing them said "Why the hell would I buy that and what would I use it for?" Of course my favorite was "Man you buy that thing and YOU GO ON THE LIST."
Having worked on M60E3's in the Marine Corps in the 90's, I'm familiar with its weaknesses. You can Put Lipstick on a Pig, but its still a Pig. These guns shoot nice and have a very comfortable and Controllable Recoil. The problem is with its Mechanical Durability and Longterm reliability. These guns will run for a while until parts breakage and unserviceability issue take their toll. M240's will outrun a M60 all day long. For short durations the M60 is a good gun provided you have logistics. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m240g-history.htm Maybe some Metallurgical changes were made to the Bolt, Springs etc., but I'm doubtful that other than superficial changes, the basic operating system and parts are unchanged. If you want a light and reliable 7.62 MG, get a PKM, HK MG5, SS77 or Negev NG 7.
And yet the M60E6 won the Danish trial.
Cagemonkey
10-05-18, 20:25
less conjecture, more fact would be useful in a discussion of merits. the US Ord E6's run nicely. especially nicely for a 17lb gun. On a vehicle mount a 28lb m240 with 1500 rd can would be preferable... or a Dillion gun. Neither is apples to apples performance envelopePlease explain to me how they improved the life span of the Bolt Assy? The top bolt locking lug has a different profile due to the fact it acts as both a locking and stripping lug. The Barrel Extension has two camming surfaces in it to help the two Bolt lugs lock the Bolt. These surfaces wear quickly. If the Barrels aren't rotated on a fairly even basis, one barrel socket will exhibit more wear than the other. This will exacerbate bolt locking lug wear. Both the firing pin spring and op rod spring go out of spec (Don't meet minimum overall length) quickly. Feed Cam Actuator Knob can shear off. From what I've scene from US Ords Video's, they have made many improvements, but the basic function of the gun hasn't changed. They keep referring to the Original M60 and never mention the E3's and E4's. I had previously mentioned that they are pleasant to shoot. Seems whats Old is now New. I hope they work out for you. Just be aware of its weak points and be on the lookout for wear.
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