View Full Version : Firearm Rabbit Holes You Just Don't Go Down Anymore
Doc Safari
10-03-18, 16:41
If you'd known me 20 years ago, you'd say, "That guy will never truly love a high capacity semi-auto that's not an AK." I owned other tactical and battle rifles, but usually the AR's and other high capacity semi-autos were the first out the door when I needed something so that I always held onto the AK's.
I had a gun safe full of every configuration, color, stock material, pre-ban, post ban, you name it. I had Chicom, Egyptian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Romanian, etc.
My final acquisition in the late 2000's was to finish my Arsenal collection with their no-ban style SA M7R and SLR107FR.
Then one fateful day I watched one of the "shooting shows" on either Outdoor or Sportsman's Channel. The guy had an M4 and was showing off all the accessories for it. In a micro second I made the decision that, "Everybody needs at least one AR."
Over the following months, I ended up selling every last AK I owned to buy M4's and accessories. I've never looked back. My love for the AK went out the window with my love for building armor models, never to be reacquired.
I've occasionally picked up and looked at an AK at a gun show, but the desire to own one just isn't there anymore. I probably won't go down that rabbit hole ever again. I'm satisfied with my history and I can calmly say, "Been there. Done that."
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My other "rabbit hole" was precision bolt guns. I briefly dabbled with them in the 1990's. I bought a used heavy barrel Remington 700 that some incompetent boob had lapped the bolt lugs and changed the headspace. I paid to have the barrel set back and the chamber re-cut. The gunsmith told me he had really made the chamber precise and that I would love the accuracy. The gun would shoot quarter-sized groups from the prone at 100 yards with factory ammo!
I was spoiled. I was also naive. I thought every heavy barreled bolt gun would do that. I traded that 700 for a tacticool Savage and learned that the Savage, although accurate, just wouldn't do quarter-sized groups at 100 yards. I was extremely disappointed. I dabbled with a few more attempts at precision long-range shooting, but I found that I just didn't have the time or the money to sink into super accurate setups. I ended up letting that interest and skill die on the vine. I don't think I've shot prone since 1996. I don't know that I can even GET prone. LOL.
What are your firearms rabbit holes that you just don't go back to anymore?
FALs. Did a half dozen, including an Israeli with cool wood furniture. Now they remind me of old tractors -- solid as hell, but antiquated, especially when compared to modern ARs. I don't even do .308 anymore since I started shooting 6.5 Grendel.
From an investment standpoint, you'd have done well to hold onto those AKs, at least until the great Obama Gun Sale of 2008.
The one that scares me is I still need a Colt SAA (preferably in 45LC) and I'm trying to find the perfect example (less than mint, but still functional) because I know that is the only thing worse than select fire when it comes to cost. But I've got my Winchester 94 and original Remington derringer so I need my SAA for my "Wild, Wild West" collection.
Doc Safari
10-03-18, 17:08
From an investment standpoint, you'd have done well to hold onto those AKs, at least until the great Obama Gun Sale of 2008.
Had I decided to remain a "collector", I'd say you're right. Another rabbit hole I don't go down anymore is the "collecting" rabbit hole. Right now I could care less about how rare or desirable a firearm is. My one "rare" firearm I own might be my Colt 6920 with factory Vietnam Tiger Stripe camo, but that's the exception.
The one that scares me is I still need a Colt SAA (preferably in 45LC) and I'm trying to find the perfect example (less than mint, but still functional) because I know that is the only thing worse than select fire when it comes to cost. But I've got my Winchester 94 and original Remington derringer so I need my SAA for my "Wild, Wild West" collection.
In the 1990s I hung around with a Sheriff's Deputy who had a friend that owned a real 1880's vintage Colt SAA. IIRC The guy had all the papers proving its age, etc. He showed us the papers and frankly I can't remember to this day what they said. Too bad the gun wasn't somehow "famous"--just verifiably antique. We took it out one Saturday. I should say "he" took it out and the rest of us watched him shoot it. He told us he carefully chose low-powered ammo, probably reloads, and fired a round through each chamber once. The gun worked perfectly. After that he wrapped it in a cloth, put it back in his hard-case, and told us he was going home carefully clean it and put it away forever. So my friend and I probably witnessed the final range session of a 100-year old antique.
The_War_Wagon
10-03-18, 17:39
Firearm Rabbit Holes You Just Don't Go Down Anymore
"I need MORE AR mags."
I stopped counting after I got my 300th PMag (I have around 200 Okays/other metal mags), and I THINK I have over 400 now, but I've been clean & sober on PMag purchases for 6mos. now. I just delete PSA sales e-mails on sight these days. :no:
Doc Safari
10-03-18, 17:42
"I need MORE AR mags."
I stopped counting after I got my 300th PMag (I have around 200 Okays/other metal mags), and I THINK I have over 400 now, but I've been clean & sober on PMag purchases for 6mos. now. I just delete PSA sales e-mails on sight these days. :no:
LOL. I'm making the journey back to 20-round Aluminum mags for my iron-sighted M4. There's just something sexy about a KISS rifle with NO doodads hanging from it and a simple, unassuming 20-round mag in the belly. If I could find a fixed carry handle Colt without having to amputate a major body part I'd have achieved enlightenment.
I stay away from the rabbit holes, gopher holes or prairie dog holes...they're hard on horses. Regarding firearms, anything that sends lead downrange I like; AR's, AK's, M1 Carbines, Old West Colts and Smith & Wessons (especially top breaks), vintage Trapdoor Carbines, '73 Winchesters, Henrys.............................. The shooting world is too interesting to turn my back on one type or style of gun. I'd do something dumb and sell 'em, then regret it later on.
Variety is the Spice of Life.
For me the AK is a rabbit hole I go down every so often and always regret. Every few years I tell myself "You need an AK". Then Ill buy one and shoot it for a few months. Then I remember I don't really care for AKs and sell it. Then a few years later Ill start thinking "You need an AK"...... and so on and so on.
FlyingHunter
10-03-18, 17:49
Chasing the latest caliber...Obama helped me recover from that. Pre OBummer, I thought every new caliber would be a monumental improvement over whatever my latest greatest.
RetroRevolver77
10-03-18, 18:12
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Moose-Knuckle
10-03-18, 18:24
I'm very boring when it comes to firearms and am a big believer in caliber consolidation.
Back when I was in HS I decided the handgun for me was a G17/G19 and purchased a (then new fad) 1:1 scale airsoft G17 since I couldn't go purchase a real one at my age. Never went down the road of rabbit holes and regrets.
The only thing I probably wouldn't do again if I had the chance is 5.45 AKs.
RetroRevolver77
10-03-18, 18:32
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Anything that shoots is a rabbit hole for me. Some are just cool and different but still useful. Like a nice worn 30-30 lever gun. Others are cool from a historical point of view. Love shooting my 1899 Martini Enfield.
Everything else is practical but I keep bouncing back and forth between caliber consolidation and variety is the spice of life! At one point I sold off all the 308, 40sw and 45 along with some firearms I just didn't really need. Now I'm back to having a 308 I don't shoot, several 40sw that I'm thinking of selling... AGAIN, along with half a dozen 45s and have gotten into 38/357.
I also used to be "just AKs" but then I grew up
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Moose-Knuckle
10-03-18, 20:18
Should have kept your 5.45 AK's, some of the Arsenal's are now selling for $1500 and the Russian ones are over $2K.
I still have them, never got rid of them.
I was saying that if I had it to do over again I wouldn't went the AK-74 route.
I purchased an SLR-105R for $450 NIB when they were first imported! :cool:
Business_Casual
10-03-18, 20:36
1911s
308s
RetroRevolver77
10-03-18, 22:38
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Straight Shooter
10-03-18, 22:43
1911's. DONE with them.
MountainRaven
10-04-18, 00:02
Bolt action precision rifles.
American-made production scout rifles.
1911s
308s
Ammo prices absolutely killed the .308 rifle. 20 years ago high quality surplus was literally ten cents a round. I remember buying 1,000 rounds of Radway Green, Hirternberger or FMP for $100 shipped.
I regularly shot my G3s, FALs and a few others, not to mention belts though my 21 without a thought or care except for making sure I don't cook a barrel. Then prices went insane and now I treat all .308s like bolt action rifles.
Really pisses me off because .308 was a ton of fun.
Revolvers. I had a few that slowly went away for other firearms after I got a 1911.
I bought another revolver last year but didn't enjoy it, traded it for a Ruger Scout that I thought I had to have.
I'm glad I have it and will shoot it more after I get my AR's dialed in and start loading for them.
I do have one 686 left that won't go anywhere, I still regret selling my King Cobra.
I'm resisting building another AR, I don't need it but a tax stamp and SBR sounds like a good idea.
Magnum bolt actions... I won a Kimber Talkeetna .375 H&H last year and I suddenly remembered why I sold off all my magnum rifles. Honestly, there is nothing in North America a 30-06 won't handle.
Lever actions.. I poured a ton of money into a big looped, custom 45-70 years ago. A 2 mile hike on a wind blown Alaskan beach rendered it useless because of the fine silt that blew inside the action. I'm glad a bear didn't try to eat me. Never had that issue with a good bolt gun.
Ammo prices absolutely killed the .308 rifle. 20 years ago high quality surplus was literally ten cents a round. I remember buying 1,000 rounds of Radway Green, Hirternberger or FMP for $100 shipped.
I regularly shot my G3s, FALs and a few others, not to mention belts though my 21 without a thought or care except for making sure I don't cook a barrel. Then prices went insane and now I treat all .308s like bolt action rifles.
Really pisses me off because .308 was a ton of fun.
ditto this for me hk91 fav gun ever used to get the berdan primed stuff odd count ? 934 rounds in a box or something but $79 or so :)
these days a few calibers want to get a lever action but in the old days had about every caliber made it seemed these days 9mm and 223 but multiples of them and one odd .357 sig for my edc in a glock 32
My first rabbit hole was 'needing' a rifle more 'reliable' than an AR15. This was based on growing up around Vietnam vets and their stories about how bad the M16 sucked along with years of watching Discovery and then the History Channel, helped along by discovering AK forums and having that as my first intro to firearms ownership. That took me through an AR180B and two different 5.56 AKs used in 2-gun shoot shooting before spending my last two years with a full-time suppressed pencil barrel AR15. I enjoyed the experience, but now I look at the AR15 as the yardstick. Any new rifle has to do something that an AR15 can't do.
I thought my rabbit hole days were over, but I've found myself down another one with a shiny new 14" 5.56 Bren 2. It does a couple of things better than the AR15. Most important to me is that it isn't an AR15. It has an early 20th century quality feel to it that AR15s just don't have and, like my much loved SLR-106, I just like it more. Silly thing, but I just can't love the feel or appearance of the AR15. I appreciate the performance like that of a quality Milwaukee or Makita tool but it's like picking up a hammer to me. Something for work, but not something I really enjoy.
You know, I find that when I was shooting competitively, the tool aspect mattered much more and the aesthetic much less. Since getting married, having kids, getting a job working from home, and being designated Mr. Mom while the wife is in university, I just don't have the time to practice or go out and make the connections to find a new 2-gun group. I find myself getting goo goo eyed over new rifles and gear now like I did in my late teens, but with more money available to chase them now. More money and less time to practice and compete seems to equal chasing 'better' gear, I guess as a form of compensation. Man I miss 2-gun.
No AK's either, went down the Tavor and MCX holes. May consider the MCX/Virtus if had spare money. Almost went down the real HK 91 hole as I wish I didn't have to sell my original long ago and it was my first rifle. Then I asked, what am I going to do with it?
I'm contemplating using the nice Garand to dig out of the hole and sell it to buy another AR brand post hole digger.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-04-18, 07:00
1911s
308s
2011s... I kept on polishing the STIs until I decided I need to work on the Indian, more than the arrow.
LMT-MWS with a 1-8 Mk8 Leupy. An incredibly capable rifle that I have no use for except to sit next to my 45ACP STI 2011. Sweet mother of all things Holy, those two together are a hoot to shoot and max the thump- but I really don't have a need for them, aside from having 6,950 gains of bullets, in the guns before reloading. But like STYERaug said, 308 ammo aint cheap anymore, though I do love the ability to have no question whether you hit steel at 500 yards.
And accurate 22lr for PRS shooting. That is an ammo and gun spiral of confetti money.
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 12:31
Lever actions.. I poured a ton of money into a big looped, custom 45-70 years ago. A 2 mile hike on a wind blown Alaskan beach rendered it useless because of the fine silt that blew inside the action. I'm glad a bear didn't try to eat me. Never had that issue with a good bolt gun.
Good to know, never heard of a lever action malfunctioning due to crap in the action. I don't have much experience with them.
Your post reminded me of 7N6's over the beach test. Lever-actions are no bueno for that.
Your post reminded me of 7N6's over the beach test. Lever-actions are no bueno for that.
Nope. They don't do too well in dirty conditions. The old Winchester 1895s didn't do too well on the eastern front in WW1. Russia used them in limited numbers in the trenches
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RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 12:56
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Doc Safari
10-04-18, 13:01
Things I've learned is that if you have import firearms that go out of production, finding parts can be a real pain in the ass. .
Right before the 1994 AWB I had the impossible task of finding a new buttstock for a Daewoo K2. Could not find one anywhere and ended up trading the rifle to a person who thought he could fix the old one. This was in the days of no internet and the only source for just about anything was in Shotgun News.
That was one reason I stopped going down the "collecting" rabbit hole.
Vintage 22 rifles and carbines, had about 90 at one time, been sober for a a couple of years now.
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 13:25
Things I've learned is that if you have import firearms that go out of production, finding parts can be a real pain in the ass. While I love collecting, it has become a chore, my list of what I'm keeping till I die is almost "Fudd-like". Only going to keep long term my AR's, 1911's, a couple of 870's, an M1A, a Rem 700, and some 22's. Basically domestic only firearms that are in large circulation. I've owned everything just about during the last few decades so the older I get the less I care about what new cool thing comes onto the market.
I have to admit I'm a little surprised, I would have guessed you would keep your 5.56 AK's over most others.
RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 13:35
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Reading this thread demonstrates what is great about the United States...we're Pro-Choice when it comes to guns, and we have a lot to choose from. We are also a very Diverse society when it comes to firearms preference. Pro-Choice and Diversity, all in the same short paragraph....:)
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 14:14
This is more about having a few items to pass down that are common. If I was going for a collection of the most reliable weapons then it would all be AK's, AUG's and Glock's. I will admit, being stuck with a Colt M4 and a Colt 70's Series Commander 1911 is less than ideal for me but I can get whatever laser or photon weapon some future leftist shock troop is carrying with that combo. So meh.
Right before the 1994 AWB I had the impossible task of finding a new buttstock for a Daewoo K2. Could not find one anywhere and ended up trading the rifle to a person who thought he could fix the old one. This was in the days of no internet and the only source for just about anything was in Shotgun News.
That was one reason I stopped going down the "collecting" rabbit hole.
You both broach an important topic, parts availability and commonality.
The pre-ban, imported, exotic, collectible, and next gen semi-autos do not have the after market support of 5.56 AR's, 9mm GLOCKs, or even 7.62x39 AK's. While one can clearly stock-pile such parts in good times, if they depend on one of these firearms for "SHFT" they might find themselves unable to keep the gun running in such an environment with out readily available parts.
On the flip side of that coin, I grew up pre-internet hearing things like; "For SHTF just have a .45 ACP/ 9mm/ .223/ .308 cause those are the most common calibers available and you'll ALWAYS be able to find ammo for your guns". Then the Obama panics came and you couldn't find any common calibers in stock to include .22LR. Hell, even AR LPK's, BCG's, and AK spare parts/replacement spring kits sold out across the nation.
RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 14:27
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Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 14:36
I get the stockpile before election, hell I spent whole pay checks in '04 after the ban sunset. But I was referring to guys who have SHTF guns that will in all likely circumstances find themselves "bugging out" and or being away from their spare parts when Murphy rears his ugly head. DI AR's all use the same parts for the most part and they are the most prolific carbine in CONUS.
Same with Glock, how long will they support Gen 3 or older Glock's? Who knows- they may become like SIG where they just stop supporting older generations of firearms once they release a new model after a few years.
Another valid point.
As far as AK's go, they are fairly supported, especially AKM's but they are dependent primarily on imported ammo that could dry up at anytime.
Hence my comment above about regret for going down the 5.45 path. I believe Hornady is the only domestic manufacture of 5.45x39 ammo. Good thing is I have never looked at my rifles in 5.45 as primary Go To guns.
. I believe Hornady is the only domestic manufacture of 5.45x39 ammo. Good thing is I have never looked at my rifles in 5.45 as primary Go To guns.
I believe they stopped making it.
I have a few 5.45 rifles and sitting on about 5 crates of surplus not to mention commercial but I've slowly replaced them with the 6920.
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Doc Safari
10-04-18, 14:42
I get the stockpile before election, hell I spent whole pay checks in '04 after the ban sunset. But I was referring to guys who have SHTF guns that will in all likely circumstances find themselves "bugging out" and or being away from their spare parts when Murphy rears his ugly head. DI AR's all use the same parts for the most part and they are the most prolific carbine in CONUS.
.
Think about what parts are most likely to break. It seems to me those are the ones that are the smallest and most easily transportable. You crack an upper receiver, well, that's why you have spare rifles. But if you need to put in a new extractor you should have a handful of those in your bugout bag anyway. I think the average person isn't going to invest the time into learning builder-level repairs like installing a new barrel or receiver extension, etc. It's a good skill to know, but I think the casual M4 owner isn't going to worry about it. Even a couple of preppers I know are playing the odds they won't have a catastrophic failure; for those scenarios they keep complete spare weapons.
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 14:49
I believe they stopped making it.
I have a few 5.45 rifles and sitting on about 5 crates of surplus not to mention commercial but I've slowly replaced them with the 6920.
They still show it in their catalog fyi.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/#!/
Think about what parts are most likely to break. It seems to me those are the ones that are the smallest and most easily transportable. You crack an upper receiver, well, that's why you have spare rifles. But if you need to put in a new extractor you should have a handful of those in your bugout bag anyway. I think the average person isn't going to invest the time into learning builder-level repairs like installing a new barrel or receiver extension, etc. It's a good skill to know, but I think the casual M4 owner isn't going to worry about it. Even a couple of preppers I know are playing the odds they won't have a catastrophic failure; for those scenarios they keep complete spare weapons.
Correct on all accounts. I realize we're preaching to the choir here on M4C. My example would be someone who for whatever reason did not have spare critical components but would be able to cannibalize them from a "battle field pickup", someones stash they happen upon, a found armorers kit, etc.
I went down the 1911 rabbit hole for many years, spending silly $ on 1911s. Always looking for the perfect grips, the latest guide rod assembly (and the guide rod vs no debates!), and so forth. The day that I realized the newer polymer wonder pistols, such as M&P with Apex kit, VP9, and such had the ergos I wanted, higher capacity, less upkeep, lower cost ammo, and respectable accuracy, did my 1911 house O cards crumble. I sold my 1911 collection and didn't look back. Some times I wished I'd kept at least one, but there really was not reason to.
I have also down the watch rabbit hole and the audiophile rabbit hole, but that's another thread...
MountainRaven
10-04-18, 16:19
Nope. They don't do too well in dirty conditions. The old Winchester 1895s didn't do too well on the eastern front in WW1. Russia used them in limited numbers in the trenches
I think the, "unreliability," of the 1895 is way overblown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f59tHO8-HlI
The 1895 did well in its limited use in Cuba, during the Moro Insurrection in the Philippines, during the punitive expedition against Pancho Villa, it's much more widespread use with the Czech Legion during the Russian Civil War, the Latvian riflemen in both WWI and the Russian Civil War, the Spanish Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, and with the Finns in the Winter War and Continuation War (WWII).
Especially when you compare the 1895 with the Mosin-Nagant:
Link (https://youtu.be/JrV3Wq59mz0).
wildcard600
10-04-18, 17:55
1911s
^^^ This
Also striker fired polymer pistols. My Glock was the "best" of the lot I tried but never could really warm up to the grip feel/angle to bother really trying to get much trigger time on it. Sold to fund another HK and decided to just settle on hammer fired stuff.
RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 18:04
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Things I've learned is that if you have import firearms that go out of production, finding parts can be a real pain in the ass. While I love collecting, it has become a chore, my list of what I'm keeping till I die is almost "Fudd-like". Only going to keep long term my AR's, 1911's, a couple of 870's, an M1A, a Rem 700, and some 22's. Basically domestic only firearms that are in large circulation. I've owned everything just about during the last few decades so the older I get the less I care about what new cool thing comes onto the market.
Depends, when Germany dropped the G3 they flooded the surplus market so much that brand new steel magazines are still only $5, when I was ordering them new in 1983 they were like $25 each. Even though I probably have almost a dozen 91 / G3 variants I have enough parts to keep them running for another 100 years.
But I do get your point, I remember when East German AK anything was like a nickel. Now try and find it.
MountainRaven
10-04-18, 18:33
You do know that place is an anomaly in the desert where unreliable firearms suddenly work and others known for reliability- somehow fail. Looking forward to watching their Chauchat mud test where they will then claim it was the best weapon issued in WW I.
I eagerly await your video where you test the Mosin-Nagant and the Winchester 1895 in similar conditions.
Business_Casual
10-04-18, 18:42
This was in the days of no internet and the only source for just about anything was in Shotgun News.
Shotgun News was some fine bathroom reading, sir.
I did the 5.56 AK thing at one point, because at the time I had it on good authority that ARs were too unreliable to be counted on if the SHTF.
When Arsenal announced the SLR-106FR I pounced on it within days of them being released. I overpaid for it - $950 - but it was worth it because I was getting a *real* weapon and not some finicky prom queen of a rifle like an AR.
As it turned out, the early 106s weren't exactly ready for prime time. The mags were iffy and my gun wasn't particularly reliable. When I found out that ARs were basically better in all respects after all the 106 really became dead weight. The later production guns apparently had the kinks ironed out but after getting into ARs I had been steadily losing interest in AKs overall, and 5.56 AKs in particular for a while.
Eventually I traded the 106 for a Yugo Mauser, an AR lower, and a Smith J-frame.
Another rabbit hole I keep trying to go down but will probably never commit to is getting a .308 battle rifle of some sort. In particular I really wanted an FAL for a long time, but I hear mixed things about the most commonly available and affordable ones on the market. Unless I come across a used SAR-48 for a good price I'll probably never bother.
CMP surplus "deals" (M1 carbines, garands, 1911s)
AKs (just need to have one) and then after research realize that 95% of the ones for sale for my interest level need visual inspection and function tests to avoid problems.
Then I shoot my (silly accurate without even trying) Grendel's, and realize that I'm not missing anything other than having a "reference" AK. Especially now that steel case Grendel is available and cheap.
Custom 1911s. Keeping my stainless Delta elite and vintage LW commander, both bought cheap. Both dead reliable, and fun to shoot. The idea of paying $1500-4000 for a 1911 offends me.
Bolt gun magnums. Keep wanting African calibers in classics. Then remember how light mountain rifles bruise and hurt, why would I want worse. (Old age changes things, used to laugh at recoil. Now I won't shoot my upland citori unless hunting upland game)
Big dollar ARs and bolt guns. I still want a MWS or SR-25, but I'm bored with stupid expensive 223s, and "sniper" bolt guns. I'd rather have a nicely sporterized Mauser classic in a classic caliber than a chassis precision rifle.
mkmckinley
10-04-18, 22:21
Should have kept your 5.45 AK's, some of the Arsenal's are now selling for $1500 and the Russian ones are over $2K.
Is that the case for the 7.62 guns as well?
RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 23:07
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Business_Casual
10-05-18, 05:29
Seems all AK's are up for some reason.
Didn’t Obama ban Russian imports or something?
It’s easy to forget what a bunch of knobs those guys were.
Doc Safari
10-05-18, 08:49
The supply and demand situation of AK's versus M4's has flipped over time. I remember in the 1990's everybody had a MAK90 or an SKS, and you only had an AR if you had money or were "an enthusiast." In the late 1990's and early 2000's you could have Romanian, Bulgarian, Russian, and homebrew AK's of any configuration you wanted.
Years later M4's are everywhere and I literally don't know anyone personally who prefers AK's. And not many people care about full-length AR's anymore. In the 1990's it was "HBAR this" and "HBAR that." All of my AR's were full-length rifles with fixed carry handles up until about 1997 when I thought "maybe I should have ONE flat top." LOL. Later I went back to AK's for the 2000's and then went back to AR's in 2010. I won't switch back again.
And not many people care about full-length AR's anymore.
This is kind of a shame as when shooting a fixed stock AR with a 20" barrel you can just tell that's what the operating system was really designed for. Everything that came after, 7" gas systems, carbine buffers etc.. were compromises to the original system driven by the necessities of the time. An "A1" style rifle in particular just handles and shoots very well, and in that case we are still talking about a gun that weighs less than 7 pounds (unloaded)
I realize shorter is better for most "real world" applications these days though and the consumer market likes to follow what the Operators are doing. But there's something to be said for a full length AR-15 both as a range shooter and, if the length isn't a hinderance in your particular situation, as a general purpose "serious use" gun in my opinion.
Doc Safari
10-05-18, 09:10
This is kind of a shame as when shooting a fixed stock AR with a 20" barrel you can just tell that's what the operating system was really designed for. Everything that came after, 7" gas systems, carbine buffers etc.. were compromises to the original system driven by the necessities of the time. An "A1" style rifle in particular just handles and shoots very well, and in that case we are still talking about a gun that weighs less than 7 pounds (unloaded)
I realize shorter is better for most "real world" applications these days though and the consumer market likes to follow what the Operators are doing. But there's something to be said for a full length AR-15 both as a range shooter and, if the length isn't a hinderance in your particular situation, as a general purpose "serious use" gun in my opinion.
I agree, and full-length guns tend to last forever with little parts breakage--or so I've been told. I never shot one enough to be concerned.
RetroRevolver77
10-05-18, 09:53
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Shotguns for me. I have owned 870's, 590's, and Benelli's, all good guns, but........
I kept one rifle sighted 870 for around they the house, but it rarely see's the light of day anymore.
sundance435
10-05-18, 13:16
Chasing the latest caliber...Obama helped me recover from that. Pre OBummer, I thought every new caliber would be a monumental improvement over whatever my latest greatest.
Same. Well, new stuff, anyway. I collect C&R stuff, so there's no way around it for that.
I used to just buy all kinds of random stuff that I thought was cool, so I guess amassing a collection of random stuff was my rabbit hole.
I need to work on some simplification/consolidation, but so far I haven't made much progress on that front. One of these days...
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 14:16
You do know that place is an anomaly in the desert where unreliable firearms suddenly work and others known for reliability- somehow fail.
I'll admit that I was a bit surprised at the CETME-L (kit gun), AKM (kit gun), Valmet, SLR-104, and the various AR variant tests. Not surprised in the least that the G3 out performed the FAL and blew away the M1A. I might be wrong but I don't think those guys are being paid by anyone and have no personal gain in faking their results.
Depends, when Germany dropped the G3 they flooded the surplus market so much that brand new steel magazines are still only $5, . . .
Whoa, whoa, whoa . . . stop the presses!
Where can a guy score new unissued surplus OEM HK G3 steel mags for $5 these days?
Another rabbit hole I keep trying to go down but will probably never commit to is getting a .308 battle rifle of some sort. In particular I really wanted an FAL for a long time, but I hear mixed things about the most commonly available and affordable ones on the market. Unless I come across a used SAR-48 for a good price I'll probably never bother.
Same here, if I happen upon an SAR-48 Para I'll be on it like Bill Clinton on an intern.
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 14:28
Is that the case for the 7.62 guns as well?
Didn’t Obama ban Russian imports or something?
It’s easy to forget what a bunch of knobs those guys were.
IIRC Barry's sanctions essentially banned both Molot (VEPR) and Izhmash (Saiga) now Kalashnikov Concern. So yes, even the 7.62x39 Russian rifles are going for a lot these days.
Whoa, whoa, whoa . . . stop the presses!
Where can a guy score new unissued surplus OEM HK G3 steel mags for $5 these days?.
For a while I was buying surplus g3 mags 20 at a time for less than a buck ($.79?). 50-75% all of them were like new, some new in package. Most rare alloy, which I preferred.
I may still have a box somewhere with a dozen culls soaked in oil because they had surface rust or pitting on them. But I guarantee you they would have function.
I've never had a factory H&K G3 / 91 mag not function!
There was also a time that I paid $39 for a factory mag new. Probably the equivalent of a hundred bucks now.
I still have some 200 round Battle Pack sleeves of German NATO Surplus from that era. Some of it's the same age as I am, but I've not run into the corrosion problem that some people have. When they went above $20 a pack I decided it was too expensive and stopped buying!
I'm slowly shooting it up though.
RetroRevolver77
10-05-18, 16:04
deleted
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 17:59
For a while I was buying surplus g3 mags 20 at a time for less than a buck ($.79?). 50-75% all of them were like new, some new in package. Most rare alloy, which I preferred.
I may still have a box somewhere with a dozen culls soaked in oil because they had surface rust or pitting on them. But I guarantee you they would have function.
I've never had a factory H&K G3 / 91 mag not function!
There was also a time that I paid $39 for a factory mag new. Probably the equivalent of a hundred bucks now.
HK Parts has factory fresh steel G3 mags for $79.95, too rich for my blood hence I want Steyr's source for $5 new surplus steel mags.
I've amassed quit a few G3 aluminum mags about four years ago, all new unissued surplus. Some still in the wrapper dating from the 60's for $3-$4 each. I missed the days of the 99¢ G3 mags. I could of got used ones with spotted rust for cheaper but meh.
You are still a child staring at your first sparkler, you neither understand what is happening nor what is going on- but instead are running in circles until your sparkler burns out.
We've gone over this a thousand times, the Inrange tests simply show which weapons are sealed or not sealed- that's it.
So you resort to personal attacks because I happen to agree with the results of a YouTube firearm channel's mud/dust/swamp tests? :haha:
Whoa, whoa, whoa . . . stop the presses!
Where can a guy score new unissued surplus OEM HK G3 steel mags for $5 these days?
Looks like they are up to around $10 these days and the NIW are gone.
https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/20-Round-Steel-Magazine-Used-Surplus-G3-91-PTR-20-111p17696.htm
https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-G3-HK91-20RD-STEEL-MAGAZINE-F-G-24p2127.htm
You can still get NIW aluminum mags for about the same price.
I'll admit that I was a bit surprised at the CETME-L (kit gun), AKM (kit gun), Valmet, SLR-104, and the various AR variant tests. Not surprised in the least that the G3 out performed the FAL and blew away the M1A. I might be wrong but I don't think those guys are being paid by anyone and have no personal gain in faking their results.
Also worth noting is that the InRange guys are pretty clear that they don't consider a gun's performance in the mud test to be a litmus test of how good the design is or is not.
The CETME-L is a perfect example. It performed great in the mud test but while both of the InRange hosts enjoyed doing their kit builds, they both seem to agree that the CETME-L is pretty "meh" as a military rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 23:21
Looks like they are up to around $10 these days and the NIW are gone.
https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/20-Round-Steel-Magazine-Used-Surplus-G3-91-PTR-20-111p17696.htm
https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-G3-HK91-20RD-STEEL-MAGAZINE-F-G-24p2127.htm
You can still get NIW aluminum mags for about the same price.
Okay, so I'm not crazy.
Yeah I've seen those but was afraid I missed $5 new surplus steel mags somewhere. All the legacy rifles mags are going up in price and or disappearing like OEM FAL mags.
Hell, a NIW aluminum G3 mag is now $18! Glad I got mine when I did for under $5 just several years ago.
https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/G3-HK91-20RD-ALLOY-MAGAZINE-NEW-IN-WRAP-24p2028.htm
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 23:26
Also worth noting is that the InRange guys are pretty clear that they don't consider a gun's performance in the mud test to be a litmus test of how good the design is or is not.
The CETME-L is a perfect example. It performed great in the mud test but while both of the InRange hosts enjoyed doing their kit builds, they both seem to agree that the CETME-L is pretty "meh" as a military rifle.
Yup, I like those guys. They mirror my thoughts in this vid:
@ 03:53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgP6Fea8zM8
RetroRevolver77
10-06-18, 00:07
deleted
HK Parts has factory fresh steel G3 mags for $79.95, too rich for my blood hence I want Steyr's source for $5 new surplus steel mags.
I've amassed quit a few G3 aluminum mags about four years ago, all new unissued surplus. Some still in the wrapper dating from the 60's for $3-$4 each. I missed the days of the 99¢ G3 mags. I could of got used ones with spotted rust for cheaper but meh.
I just want a few dozen more East German AK-74 mags for $4.99. I don't know why I thought that would be some kind of "forever" price but I almost wish I bought one less AK rifle and spent it all on mags. Of course I did pretty good on the AK rifles too snagging Arsenals when they were $400 as well as grabbing some Maadi's, SARs and similar in the $300 price range.
At one point I think I had more than 30 AK pattern rifles. Hard to believe there was a time they were cheaper than Glocks.
Moose-Knuckle
10-06-18, 13:06
I just want a few dozen more East German AK-74 mags for $4.99. I don't know why I thought that would be some kind of "forever" price but I almost wish I bought one less AK rifle and spent it all on mags. Of course I did pretty good on the AK rifles too snagging Arsenals when they were $400 as well as grabbing some Maadi's, SARs and similar in the $300 price range.
At one point I think I had more than 30 AK pattern rifles. Hard to believe there was a time they were cheaper than Glocks.
I remember when What-A-Country had East German Bakelite's for that price . . . for a long time. I don't think anyone ever thought they would dry up. I skipped the East German mags and stuck with the Bulgarian Arsenal ((10)) black, brown, saddle tan, and firebrick red polymer mags. I was picking them up from OOW Inc. for like $3 a mag. IIRC K-VAR is only importing the black and OD ones now and they go for $45+ so I have no idea how much the other colors are going for but I'm sitting on an unopened box or two of them.
I do wished I had picked up a Polish steel 30rd and Romanian steel 30rd and 40rd mags while they were available for the collection though. I remember being in CTD's store after I purchased my first SAR-1 thinking to myself one day these $9 Eastern block steel 30rd mags will go up in price or dry up. We're at a point where a lot of AK mags are drying up and even G3 mags are going up in price. Before the last panic I rounded off my 40rd and 45rd mag collection with Bulgarian 45 rd waffles and 45 round Bakelies as well as Russian Bakelite in both 7.62 and 5.45 "just in case" I even snagged one of those S Korean KCI steel 40 rounders.
I also wished I bought more SGL's when K-VAR and then Atlantic (to match their pricing) were giving them away for $400+. I've seen them go for $1800 on GB since Barry's Russian rifle ban.
Rabbit holes I don't go down anymore:
1. Hunting
2. Reloading
3. Shotguns
4. Looking for better calibers than 9mm & 5.56.
5. Looking for something better than the AR.
6. Having a "Collection". If I win a lottery, this would probably change.
By the way, back in the pre-internet days the Shotgun News was great for pricing things I couldn't afford.
Business_Casual
10-06-18, 19:58
4. Looking for better calibers than 9mm & 5.56.
True.
RetroRevolver77
10-06-18, 20:37
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There's quite a few different combo's that I like personally so it's just a matter of preference.
I think it was going after non standard military calibers. A couple times I've almost explored the sixes, but glad I never got into that can of worms.
I try to stay 9mm, .45, 5.56 and 7.62 for most rifles and 7.62 and 5.45 for Warsaw Pact rifles. I have an oddball .357 SIG HK USP compact but it was my fathers and now sorta rare so I'll never part with it. I've flirted with 10mm but currently don't own one.
If I had everything I want and need, I'd grab a Delta Elite 10mm and maybe a Glock 20. But right now there are a couple dozen firearms ahead of them on the "buy next" list.
RetroRevolver77
10-07-18, 13:07
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Five_Point_Five_Six
10-07-18, 13:43
For me it's AK's. I got into AK's when they were cheap. I'm down to 3 and will narrow that down to just one in the upcoming months. A 6920 can be had these days for not much more than a WASR, and less than most Arsenals. The difference in ammo cost between 7.62x39 and 5.56 isn't nearly as much as it used to be either. Parts kits went from $89 to $400-600. If you go look at the AK files it's a constant panic and wonderfest about whether or not Trump will lift the ban on VEPR's and Saiga's. Try to tell them the ban isn't going anywhere under Trump and you get accused of voting for Hillary.
I will probably shoot up the last remaining 5000 rounds of Wolf that I have over the course of the next couple years and sell that last AK off too. My main focus from here on out is going to be a couple 6920s, a Colt Commando inspired pistol, and a couple Glocks. My wife has her own rifle and the kids both have M&P 15-22s. Having all the guns fit in one safe and all the ammo and mags in the other will be a nice feeling for a change.
For me its been ak style guns. So much crap in the US market. Even Arsenal sucks. I have one I've kept if anything to show people why you shouldn't buy one. Mine even went back to them. Its a perfect rifle to show how bad their bubba gunsmiths can **** up.
In other things I've given up on a lot of the gimmicks. My ar's are going to be basic lmt or bcm rifles in most cases with a larue mount for the optic. I'm not chasing the latest mount vendor or special new grip. Most of them have trijicon or aimpoint optics.
AK's. Unless I want a powerful semi-automatic sub-machine gun that can be used as a rifle again.
Rifles in general. All I really need are two. A primary and a back up in case my primary has a problem.
Glocks. Pretty much done with them. There are other guns that are reliable and light yet better in other ways.
.357 Auto.
10mm.
.308.
.22 LR semi-auto anything.
Debating whether to jump in the Mp5 clone rabbit hole...or spend my money on more pistols, pistol mags, and ammo.
Doc Safari
10-08-18, 07:56
Even Arsenal sucks. I have one I've kept if anything to show people why you shouldn't buy one. Mine even went back to them. Its a perfect rifle to show how bad their bubba gunsmiths can **** up.
Would love more details on this. I got burned by the "great canted sight fiasco" where nearly every SLR107FR came with sights off just enough they couldn't be zeroed. I sent mine in to get fixed and it was. But then I decided maybe I better take out my pristine SAM7R to make sure it could be zeroed OK. Guess what? The sights were canted on it too. I had a cordial but firm argument with the lady at Arsenal because technically it was "out of warranty" and I had just never gotten around to shooting it. Luckily, she gave in and I got that one fixed too. Those experiences and the nearly total unreliability of the milled 5.56 AK's soured me on Arsenal forever. I gave up a perfect Colt Law Enforcement Carbine to get one of those. I'd love to have that Colt back.
RetroRevolver77
10-08-18, 09:41
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I've got a Norinco Bakelite Side-folder that I bought brand new in 1983 and it has a slight cant to the left of the front sight. Not a precision weapon, but I would like to have one handy if I was living off the land in a cave.
Would love more details on this. I got burned by the "great canted sight fiasco" where nearly every SLR107FR came with sights off just enough they couldn't be zeroed. I sent mine in to get fixed and it was. But then I decided maybe I better take out my pristine SAM7R to make sure it could be zeroed OK. Guess what? The sights were canted on it too. I had a cordial but firm argument with the lady at Arsenal because technically it was "out of warranty" and I had just never gotten around to shooting it. Luckily, she gave in and I got that one fixed too. Those experiences and the nearly total unreliability of the milled 5.56 AK's soured me on Arsenal forever. I gave up a perfect Colt Law Enforcement Carbine to get one of those. I'd love to have that Colt back.
Mine came with the front sight canted one way and the rear sight block milled wrong so the rear sight was canted the other. With the windage adjusted all the way it was still shooting like 6 inches off a 25 yards. The mag release was canted as well and the magwell was too small to accept some mags. There was some issue with the trigger group and it had some other small issues. Took it to an AK smith that was one of the higher recommended ones in my state and after he looked over it a few minutes he said they needed to just replace the entire thing, it wasn't worth trying to fix.
Arsenal said hold my beer and went to work drunk with a hammer. Their "fix" for the brand new gun was to cant the front sight like crazy in the opposite direction to make it line up with the ****ed up sight block. It does zero but this is a sad bubba repair they should have pulled the barrel and replaced the rear sight block. They grinded the magwell open and filed the canted mag release to make it work. Then they resprayed it. Trigger was still ****ed up when it came back but we added an alg trigger which fixed it.
You could tell the gun had no QC done as it wouldn't have passed shit. They did the bare minimum bubba'ing to fix it. Considering they were the "higher" end option I consider this unacceptable. The gun collects dust in the back of my safe now. Haven't shot it enough to watch the paint flake off like others I've seen since because they never cleaned the metal before spraying them. To their credit I guess the gun now is zero'd at 25 yards. Honestly don't know if it would hold zero past that. In the end you pay a premium buying something new you don't want an idiot with a beer, hammer, and spray paint can trying to fix a gun you've had a month and doing a shit job.
The dealer mailed the gun back, got crap from them about why I didn't mail it myself. In the end we got the rifle back from them with no paperwork saying what they did, just a target.
When friends say they want an ak and bring up arsenal I'll pull it out of the back of the safe and show them what those worthless idiots consider gtg not once but twice. I would have given them a pass if they fixed it correctly when I mailed it back or just replaced it, I get something goes through the cracks. They doubled down when they got it back.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-08-18, 21:31
Should have kept your 5.45 AK's, some of the Arsenal's are now selling for $1500 and the Russian ones are over $2K.
What an absolute waste of money.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mine is anything in bright chrome, nickel, or stainless steel. There's something about blue or parkerizing and wood that I just like. I'm sure it's due to my love of milsurp guns. I've had a couple of nice stainless 1911's including a Dan Wesson Pointman Major and a Colt Commander. I also had a Ruger P90. The Dan Wesson was one of the finest shooting 1911's I've ever owned, and the mill work and finish on it was just awesome. You could tell some care was taken putting it together. No matter how many times I shot anything stainless I just could not gel with them.
So, I ended up moving them all, and have sworn off ever trying any firearm in chrome, nickel, or bright stainless. :) I did make one exception for a stainless Para GI Expert 1911 I picked up on the cheap that I had cerakoted. :D It looks much better now. ;)
Before...
https://i.imgur.com/QzEm9dk.jpg
After...
https://i.imgur.com/KRQSadQ.jpg
RetroRevolver77
10-08-18, 22:26
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Mr. Goodtimes
10-08-18, 22:46
They seem to be a good investment. There's a few factory AK74's on GB going for over $1400 and even a kit that's over $1600 without even a barrel.
No, I mean AK’s in general are a waste of money. The nicest AK’s in existence are at best $500 rifles, and that’s pushing it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, I mean AK’s in general are a waste of money. The nicest AK’s in existence are at best $500 rifles, and that’s pushing it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Only because they were produced in commie countries that still had a surplus of parts and cheap labor pool. Polytech and Yugo rifles could be beautifully made at times. Don't get me wrong, the 922r builds that century did left a lot to be desired and I wouldn't pay top dollar for any of that crap but I think I paid $750 for my Russian Legion rifle and I'm still pretty happy with that purchase.
If I ever found a Steyr import Maadi for less than $1000 I'd snag it, given that the MSRP in 1981 was $1,200 it would be a no brainer. And I'll still push $1000 for Polytech variants I don't have.
Business_Casual
10-09-18, 05:29
Only because they were produced in commie countries that still had a surplus of parts and cheap labor pool. Polytech and Yugo rifles could be beautifully made at times. Don't get me wrong, the 922r builds that century did left a lot to be desired and I wouldn't pay top dollar for any of that crap but I think I paid $750 for my Russian Legion rifle and I'm still pretty happy with that purchase.
If I ever found a Steyr import Maadi for less than $1000 I'd snag it, given that the MSRP in 1981 was $1,200 it would be a no brainer. And I'll still push $1000 for Polytech variants I don't have.
The times have passed them by, the development dollars are 99% going to ARs and precision long-range rifles. There’s no good way to mount accessories and the dry weight climbs too quickly when you do find a way. JMO, of course.
Anything that's not a carry pistol or HD long gun.
Anything that's not 9mm or 5.56.
Anything that's not one of my 3 or 4 identical ARs.
Anything that's not one of my identical Glock 43s, or near identical Wilson 1911s.
RetroRevolver77
10-09-18, 18:13
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Imagine carving out a collection 30 years ago and how irrelevant it would be today. Things change over time and improve. If something goes out of production, probably should drop it.
My M1 Garands have to disagree with you. :D
Imagine carving out a collection 30 years ago and how irrelevant it would be today. Things change over time and improve. If something goes out of production, probably should drop it.
I know a few people that did that but with machineguns. I wouldn't call their collection irrelevant.
Guess it depends, one person I'm thinking of collected like every variation of hk roller lock hosts(like converting 93 and 91 guns into every variation, same with the 89 and 94s). A collection of colt ar's from 30 years ago would be pretty collectible today too, as would some of the other imports and guns that have become rare.
Imagine carving out a collection 30 years ago and how irrelevant it would be today. Things change over time and improve. If something goes out of production, probably should drop it.
That's why I really don't collect. All my stuff is to use.
My M1 Garands have to disagree with you. :D
So does 3/4th of my firearm collection. Short of trying to survive a post war nuclear apocalypse a Winchester lever still makes a decent ranch rifle. Might be expensive to feed but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be doable with my HK 91 or any of my G3s for that matter.
The zombies aren't coming, most of us aren't "going over the beach" with personal firearms, we aren't going to have to do extended deployments in the swamps and jungles of Louisiana or any of that shit. The most significant thing anyone "might" see is civil unrest of the kind seen in LA following the Rodney King verdict.
And guess what, a bunch of Koreans with mostly ordinary guns were able to shut shit down in their sector without any police assistance of any kind. No lights, no lasers, no night vision or anything like that, just a willingness to "shoot back." And if you control the rooftops, you pretty much control the block.
Give me a 1985 giant maglite, a big legacy rifle with a bench scope and 20 mags of ammo and I can still handle 95% of things that might come my way. And where things happen is far more important than what you have if and when it happens. Not being "behind enemy lines" helps more than anything else.
RetroRevolver77
10-09-18, 21:34
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MountainRaven
10-09-18, 23:46
My M1 Garands have to disagree with you. :D
IRTV are supposed to be doing a, "modern Garand," and a, "modern SKS," series soon.
Ian ("Gun Jesus")'s prediction is that the modernized M1 will be a better gun than the modernized SKS.
I would not feel undergunned for the average house and homestead defense with a Garand. I'd probably even modernize one of the Fulton Armory M1 tanker Garands in 308 specifically for that if I lived in an occupied state.
I like my pre-bans, have quite a few but by the time I go they'll all be relics so I'll keep on updating little by little over time.
Thanks to my Grandfather hanging on to some "relics" I have a respectable collection of WWI firearms. But if you have a bunch of old SP1s or A2s making ya blue, I'll be happy to trade you some 6920s for them.
RetroRevolver77
10-10-18, 11:34
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Doc Safari
10-10-18, 11:42
Imagine carving out a collection 30 years ago and how irrelevant it would be today. Things change over time and improve. If something goes out of production, probably should drop it.
It depends on the reason for collecting. I knew people in the 1990's who got C & R FFL's because that type of license allowed them to order firearms at their convenience. A lot of these people had interest in guns as pieces of history and fun adult toys rather than HD weapons. More than one friend of mine had no qualms about keeping a surplus East German or other Makarov as his primary CCW piece. I also knew a couple of old timers that thought there never was a better battle weapon than the M1 Garand. A friend of mine had all one type of rifle and wanted every manufacturer's variation. IIRC he collected WW2 Mausers exclusively.
SKS's were so plentiful in the 1990's that I can't believe they are kind of hard to find now. I remember gun shows with tables and tables of Russian SKS's stacked three or four high and ten wide. I knew a guy who nearly went nuts trying to get an SKS for each year of production and eventually gave up when he had "most of them."
I never really went down the C & R rabbit hole, but I did own several SKS's. A lot of my friends owned nothing but C & R guns.
Averageman
10-10-18, 12:07
I would not feel undergunned for the average house and homestead defense with a Garand. I'd probably even modernize one of the Fulton Armory M1 tanker Garands in 308 specifically for that if I lived in an occupied state.
I have one of these, although heavy, it's a hoot to shoot, I would still however prefer an AR for most of everything.
Moose-Knuckle
10-10-18, 14:18
No, I mean AK’s in general are a waste of money. The nicest AK’s in existence are at best $500 rifles, and that’s pushing it.
I feel the exact same way about $2K+ 5.56 carbines from Titusville, FL.
RetroRevolver77
10-10-18, 15:47
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Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 16:16
I feel the exact same way about $2K+ 5.56 carbines from Titusville, FL.
Have you ever tried one?
No exaggeration that my SR-15 has made me not even pick up or think about shooting my other AR's, and none of them were cheap beaters either.
Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 16:22
On the expensive AK's front I still want a SAKO RK 95 TP. Which will never happen, but I do love SAKO's so therefore I want a SAKO AK variant.
Realistically it would serve no real purpose other than collecting for me, since my AR's cover the 5.56mm envelope of punching holes in things from 0-500 yards with light weight easy to cary carbines.
I have several pre-ban HK's, fully outfitted to with both collapsing and fixed stocks, original Hensoldt optics- good luck finding barrels that aren't aftermarket, they are neat looking though. Today however I'd buy heavily into B&T, updated designs, better ergonomics. AR's, specifically Colt's from back then would be the large pin types, eclipsed in every way with the newer Colt's- which mine have all been upgraded to now. I have older AK's like FEG's or some of the first imported Romanian rifles from the 90's, had some original pre-ban Yugo's, sold off my Chinese pre-bans but have slowly upgraded to the newer style Arsenals which are better today overall especially for mounting optics. While I have pre ban FN FAL's, I'll admit outside of the weak plastic the FN SCAR is a better rifle- especially for mounting optics and finding parts etc. I had older AUG's but upgraded to the newer style ones which I like better because adding modern optics has it's advantages. I have Hi Power's, Colt 1911's, stamped steel slide German SIG's but my Glock's are better pistols overall and am thinking of upgrading the SIG's to the newer HK pistols being lighter in weight- I'd actually carry them. Point being, if something is valuable because it's outdated then maybe consider selling it off and buying newer items, updating your collection so that over time you end up leaving behind the newest production items.
1. When are you going to need a new HK barrel? I know people with a couple hundred thousand rounds though their G3s and their barrels are probably good for another couple hundred thousand rounds. Might want to stock a few extra rollers but that's about it.
2. What the hell does the size of the pin have to do with performance of an AR rifle?
3. Glocks are better than German SIGs? Really? For what?
4. Aug A2s run any optic you want, but honestly the Swarovski donut of death is perfectly fine as a 1.5x.
Honestly if a person can't make 30 year old rifles work, it is the person and not the rifle that needs work. If everything goes completely SHTF the batteries for all of your whiz bang new tech stuff won't exist anyway so you better have some decent BUIS.
MountainRaven
10-10-18, 16:53
1. When are you going to need a new HK barrel? I know people with a couple hundred thousand rounds though their G3s and their barrels are probably good for another couple hundred thousand rounds. Might want to stock a few extra rollers but that's about it.
2. What the hell does the size of the pin have to do with performance of an AR rifle?
3. Glocks are better than German SIGs? Really? For what?
4. Aug A2s run any optic you want, but honestly the Swarovski donut of death is perfectly fine as a 1.5x.
Honestly if a person can't make 30 year old rifles work, it is the person and not the rifle that needs work. If everything goes completely SHTF the batteries for all of your whiz bang new tech stuff won't exist anyway so you better have some decent BUIS.
Obviously not the AK, though, which is perfectly perfect because you can put a ham sandwich in it while you're engaging in an amphibious assault and it will still run, even though it's 70 years old, and has ergonomics and optics mounting solutions that are awesome - if you're used to a Mosin-Nagant.
It's a dark, deeply held secret of the New World Deep State Order that the US would have pacified Afghanistan by March 2003 and Iraq by May 2003 if the US issued AKs and not M16s/M4s.
Moose-Knuckle
10-10-18, 18:39
Have you ever tried one?
No exaggeration that my SR-15 has made me not even pick up or think about shooting my other AR's, and none of them were cheap beaters either.
I have not, but since you have riddle me this . . .
What can a $2K+ 5.56 direct impingement gas carbine do that a $799 Colt LE6920-OEM1 can't?
SMU's the world over with "tier 1" budgets and who keyhole barrels utilize Colt DI and or HK piston guns. That is more than good enough for lil-ole me.
On the expensive AK's front I still want a SAKO RK 95 TP. Which will never happen, but I do love SAKO's so therefore I want a SAKO AK variant.
The Sako RK 95 TP has been my 'holy grail' for a long time now.
Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 19:11
By that logic what can a SAKO RK 95 TO do that a decent quality Eastern Blok AK can’t?
If your answer has to do with being more refined, better made, likely more durable, easier to shoot well, designed by people that actually shoot for shooters.... then you might consider the SR-15 in the same light.
Moose-Knuckle
10-10-18, 19:47
By that logic what can a SAKO RK 95 TO do that a decent quality Eastern Blok AK can’t?
Well I see you didn't answer my question....
As for your question the Finnish Sako rifle can fill a void in a Kalashnikov collection that is unfillable due to the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1989. Last time I checked their is no current legislation threatening domestically produced direct impingement 5.56 rifles.
If your answer has to do with being more refined, better made, likely more durable, easier to shoot well, designed by people that actually shoot for shooters.... then you might consider the SR-15 in the same light.
Who are these "people who actually shoot for shooters" exactly? JSOC, SAS, NZSAS, SASR, CSOR, along with many other SMU's can have what ever they want but for some strange reason they all go with Colt 5.56 rifles, HK rifles to include the G28 which IIRC is replacing the Army's SR-25's.
Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 20:24
I don’t know why military procurement works the way it does, witness the new M17 pistol. So I cannot answer why KAC products are or are not selected for procurement. I don’t know if KAC even makes submissions for 5.56mm carbines to the .gov.
What I can tell you is that the improvements to the E3 bolt and gas system on the SR-15 should result in a more durable operating system. This is born out anecdotally by testers like Ballistic Radio, who put 20K through one without cleaning with no parts breakages, no malfunctions attributed to the carbine, and no significant degradation in precision at the end of the test. So KAC is evidently putting out a quality gun, with unusually durable barrels for a 5.56mm that also shoot pretty well.
Compared to my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II as an example, the SR-15 is: noticeably lighter, balances better, has a smoother softer recoil impulse, has a much much better trigger,has fully ambidextrous controls, gives similar accuracy with good ammunition, beats up brass quite a bit less (I reload), ejects brass more consistently, and is more fun to shoot.
Granted some of that is subjective user perceptions. The KAC also came out of the box better equipped than the Colt, all you need is a sling of your choice and optic if desired and the KAC is fully outfited. The SR-15 included MLok rail covers, a picatinny rail section, sling swivels for the QD cups, good folding iron sights, a magazine (obviously), manual, locking device, nice furniture (subjective), and a very good two stage match trigger.
All in all the SR-15 is not a bad value for the money. If you get a chance to try one, you might be surprised how well you like it.
MountainRaven
10-10-18, 20:40
I don’t know why military procurement works the way it does, witness the new M17 pistol. So I cannot answer why KAC products are or are not selected for procurement. I don’t know if KAC even makes submissions for 5.56mm carbines to the .gov.
What I can tell you is that the improvements to the E3 bolt and gas system on the SR-15 should result in a more durable operating system. This is born out anecdotally by testers like Ballistic Radio, who put 20K through one without cleaning with no parts breakages, no malfunctions attributed to the carbine, and no significant degradation in precision at the end of the test. So KAC is evidently putting out a quality gun, with unusually durable barrels for a 5.56mm that also shoot pretty well.
Compared to my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II as an example, the SR-15 is: noticeably lighter, balances better, has a smoother softer recoil impulse, has a much much better trigger,has fully ambidextrous controls, gives similar accuracy with good ammunition, beats up brass quite a bit less (I reload), ejects brass more consistently, and is more fun to shoot.
Granted some of that is subjective user perceptions. The KAC also came out of the box better equipped than the Colt, all you need is a sling of your choice and optic if desired and the KAC is fully outfited. The SR-15 included MLok rail covers, a picatinny rail section, sling swivels for the QD cups, good folding iron sights, a magazine (obviously), manual, locking device, nice furniture (subjective), and a very good two stage match trigger.
All in all the SR-15 is not a bad value for the money. If you get a chance to try one, you might be surprised how well you like it.
SR-15s come with lights? A box of magazines? A case of ammo?
Cuz if not, all you need with an LE6920 is a light and a sling.
Moose-Knuckle
10-10-18, 23:20
I don’t know why military procurement works the way it does, witness the new M17 pistol. So I cannot answer why KAC products are or are not selected for procurement. I don’t know if KAC even makes submissions for 5.56mm carbines to the .gov.
Nor do I. But I have read plenty of open source articles penned by guys like LAV who talked about a personal friend of his in the SAS that was part of his Regiment's rifle selection process. Out of everything they tested they selected Colt Canada. What that translates to the average Joe like me is that if Colt's are good enough for folks like that they will meet and exceed any of my needs at a cost much lower than KAC's offerings. KAC's are cost prohibitive, do any MIL or even LE in the world field SR-15's?
What I can tell you is that the improvements to the E3 bolt and gas system on the SR-15 should result in a more durable operating system. This is born out anecdotally by testers like Ballistic Radio, who put 20K through one without cleaning with no parts breakages, no malfunctions attributed to the carbine, and no significant degradation in precision at the end of the test. So KAC is evidently putting out a quality gun, with unusually durable barrels for a 5.56mm that also shoot pretty well.
Compared to my Colt M4A1 SOCOM II as an example, the SR-15 is: noticeably lighter, balances better, has a smoother softer recoil impulse, has a much much better trigger,has fully ambidextrous controls, gives similar accuracy with good ammunition, beats up brass quite a bit less (I reload), ejects brass more consistently, and is more fun to shoot.
Granted some of that is subjective user perceptions. The KAC also came out of the box better equipped than the Colt, all you need is a sling of your choice and optic if desired and the KAC is fully outfited. The SR-15 included MLok rail covers, a picatinny rail section, sling swivels for the QD cups, good folding iron sights, a magazine (obviously), manual, locking device, nice furniture (subjective), and a very good two stage match trigger.
I have no doubt that Mr. Knight and his company has taken Mr. Stoner's design to the next level. But as with all things there comes a point of diminishing return. No one is saying that KAC does not make a solid product. For me not only does the cost put them out of my interest but so does their proprietary components. If one of my AR's experiences a malfunction / critical component failure I can literally drop in any bolt, ejector, etc. and keep it running. In a perfect world a rifle would not experience a malfunction to begin with but a guy would have spare parts on hand just in case. We don't live in a perfect world so it gives a guy peace of mind knowing that he can acquire a part that is readily available and charge on.
All in all the SR-15 is not a bad value for the money. If you get a chance to try one, you might be surprised how well you like it.
I think that is a matter of opinion. I would love to try one sometime, if I ever happen upon a winning PowerBall ticket I'll be sure to procure me some of their SR-25's and mags.
Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 23:23
Colt Canada is way way different animal than a US Colt.
Coal Dragger
10-10-18, 23:44
You can drop a standard bolt in an SR-15 and it will work FYI.
Moose-Knuckle
10-10-18, 23:58
Colt Canada is way way different animal than a US Colt.
And still all the SMU's I've listed use Colt, Colt Canada, and or HK rifles. The UK will go with a Common Wealth nation anytime they can over a former colony and MoD even adopted an LMT 7.62 at a time KAC owned the market. As with Sako rifles, I wish I could own a Colt Canada as well.
You can drop a standard bolt in an SR-15 and it will work FYI.
I stand corrected. I didn't realize that, however that fact doesn't change anything on my end.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 00:07
Why do facts change nothing on your end?
I guess I don’t understand but I’m not a collector and don’t understand that mindset.
Moose-Knuckle
10-11-18, 00:12
Why do facts change nothing on your end?
Because even though the fact that I can drop in a Colt/DD/LMT/BCM/what have you standard AR bolt does not change the fact that it's still just a $2K+ direct impingement 5.56 carbine.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 00:19
Direct impingement is superior to pistons in the AR.
MorphCross
10-11-18, 00:19
Colt Canada is way way different animal than a US Colt.
It is kind of presumptive to say that the C8SFW is way different from a M4A1. If they are using the same grade of steel (4150 CMV) the only difference would be the method of rifling and post processing i.e. stress relieving and the barrel profile.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 00:23
Just like a SAKO would be a very expensive AK. It’s still just an AK. Nothing special.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 00:31
It is kind of presumptive to say that the C8SFW is way different from a M4A1. If they are using the same grade of steel (4150 CMV) the only difference would be the method of rifling and post processing i.e. stress relieving and the barrel profile.
The Colt Canada barrels have a stellar reputation for durability and precision potential.
Not knocking US Colts, I have one, but the Colt Canada guns are more high end than our Colts.
MorphCross
10-11-18, 01:34
The Colt Canada barrels have a stellar reputation for durability and precision potential.
Not knocking US Colts, I have one, but the Colt Canada guns are more high end than our Colts.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?59364-The-Colt-M4A1-SOCOM-Barrel
https://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-iur-review/
Mea Culpa on the durability side (largely to do with composition change in the steel necessitated by the hammer forging process) but as demonstrated by the sample of one of each in the links provided Colt USA barrels are not slouches when it comes down to competing with its Canadian brethren.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 02:09
Well aware, my 16” factory Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel is a freak, turns in 10 shot groups just at or under an inch when I hold up my end of the equation.
Because even though the fact that I can drop in a Colt/DD/LMT/BCM/what have you standard AR bolt does not change the fact that it's still just a $2K+ direct impingement 5.56 carbine.
Here's the thing. The SR-15 is a better rifle than the Colt rifle. Problem is the Colt rifle is already an excellent rifle that satisfies the wants and needs of not only everyone here, but the military as a result. The Colt rifle is already one of the best rifles in the world, so in order to surpass it, you have to make things like SR-15s and 416s and even then the the improvements may be slight in some cases.
I have put SR-15s side by side with Colt rifles and the trigger is probably a little nicer, the groups I produced slightly tighter and a few other neat features, I have yet to commit to buying one because all my Colts are more than capable of doing everything I need.
If I get through the next list of the 30 rifles I need to buy next, and if the money is there I could see buying a pair of SR15s and SR25s, but if it never happens I'll be ok.
Business_Casual
10-11-18, 06:00
Here's the thing. The SR-15 is a better rifle than the Colt rifle. Problem is the Colt rifle is already an excellent rifle that satisfies the wants and needs of not only everyone here, but the military as a result. The Colt rifle is already one of the best rifles in the world, so in order to surpass it, you have to make things like SR-15s and 416s and even then the the improvements may be slight in some cases.
I have put SR-15s side by side with Colt rifles and the trigger is probably a little nicer, the groups I produced slightly tighter and a few other neat features, I have yet to commit to buying one because all my Colts are more than capable of doing everything I need.
If I get through the next list of the 30 rifles I need to buy next, and if the money is there I could see buying a pair of SR15s and SR25s, but if it never happens I'll be ok.
For some reason, this line of thinking reminds me of the YouTube videos where rich guys crash their super cars just driving around. Not you personally, but the whole human inclination toward technical excess has people buying Lambos that probably should have gotten a Supra, probably doesn’t make sense.
For me the rabbit hole was non-5.56mm/.223 calibers. Kept a .330blk upper for plinking since a buddy reloads (and is patiently teaching me), but otherwise everything else 5.56mm. Can honestly say it feels like less of a headache having everything consolidated... as well as freed up quite a bit of room in the workshop and safe.
For some reason, this line of thinking reminds me of the YouTube videos where rich guys crash their super cars just driving around. Not you personally, but the whole human inclination toward technical excess has people buying Lambos that probably should have gotten a Supra, probably doesn’t make sense.
There's nothing wrong with buying a slightly better mousetrap if you can afford it. But as noted, I haven't bought a SR15 yet.
Doc Safari
10-11-18, 15:20
There's an old saying, " 'Better' is the Enemy of 'Good Enough'." If that $2,500 rifle keeps you from paying for magazines, ammo, or training, then you're wasting your money if a $900 Colt LE6920 is good enough.
I sometimes wonder if people who pay $2,000+ for a 1911 are doing the same thing, but the 1911 is a different animal and I'm certainly no expert on them.
There's an old saying, " 'Better' is the Enemy of 'Good Enough'." If that $2,500 rifle keeps you from paying for magazines, ammo, or training, then you're wasting your money if a $900 Colt LE6920 is good enough.
I sometimes wonder if people who pay $2,000+ for a 1911 are doing the same thing, but the 1911 is a different animal and I'm certainly no expert on them.
From a raw clinical nuts and bolts standpoint, probably not much difference, they all pretty much do the same thing IMHO. My Glock will do everything my Wilson can do, at least in my hands anyway, and costs way less.
For me, its like anything else, you have to want to go there. Which is kinda true with anything we consumers purchase. This widget is good enough, but this one has a few more niceties and still accomplishes the same goal and only costs X dollars more! SOLD!!!
Life is short, it's good to treat yourself to nice things from time to time. But, your point is very valid. A balance has to be obtained in the battle of want vs. need and how to get there.
Moose-Knuckle
10-11-18, 17:48
So are you trolling threads that mention AK's now along with some others or are you being serious with these posts?
If serious...
Direct impingement is superior to pistons in the AR.
What has that opinion got to do with the conversation? I haven't seen anyone poo-poo on DI gas in this thread.
Just like a SAKO would be a very expensive AK. It’s still just an AK. Nothing special.
Now you are being obtuse, $2K+ KAC 5.56 carbines have not been banned, Finnish rifles have as per my post about filling a void in a Kalashnikov collector's hoard. Anyone that knows anything about pre-ban rifles knows there are not many Sako rifles that made it into this country. This equates to them being "a very expensive AK". But you already knew that.
There's an old saying, " 'Better' is the Enemy of 'Good Enough'." If that $2,500 rifle keeps you from paying for magazines, ammo, or training, then you're wasting your money if a $900 Colt LE6920 is good enough.
I sometimes wonder if people who pay $2,000+ for a 1911 are doing the same thing, but the 1911 is a different animal and I'm certainly no expert on them.
Actually it is "perfection is the enemy of good enough" and is usually used to justify an AK over an AR. The original example was the NASA zero gravity pen vs. the russian use of a pencil.
Moose-Knuckle
10-11-18, 18:19
There's an old saying, " 'Better' is the Enemy of 'Good Enough'." If that $2,500 rifle keeps you from paying for magazines, ammo, or training, then you're wasting your money if a $900 Colt LE6920 is good enough.
Most AR guys have a box or two of spare parts, this includes take off pistol grips, handguards, stocks, sights, RIS's, etc. Currently a guy can pick up two Colt OEM1's and still have plenty left over for ammo, mags, and or range fees.
I sometimes wonder if people who pay $2,000+ for a 1911 are doing the same thing, but the 1911 is a different animal and I'm certainly no expert on them.
Yeah 1911's are a whole different animal not even in the same ballpark compared AR manufacturers.
But we haven't addressed another issue, the pleasure one derives from spending and acquiring things. The simple fact is most people like to buy things and the more they spend on said things the more their neurotransmitter surges dopamine. This is true for steaks, automobiles, rifles, watches, et al. I've seen studies where PhD's in the fields of neuropsychology and neurobiology conduct test on volunteers where they will blindfold the subjects and have them perform taste tests on various things like burgers, wine, beer, etc. The subjects are given the same product but are told one is more expensive than another, overwhelmingly the subjects choose the more expensive item as the best tasting.
MorphCross
10-11-18, 18:27
Actually it is "perfection is the enemy of good enough" and is usually used to justify an AK over an AR. The original example was the NASA zero gravity pen vs. the russian use of a pencil.
Of course the truth is Fisher developed the pen independent of NASA and in truth it was just a happy chance that the pen came out in time for missions into space.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 18:30
So are you trolling threads that mention AK's now along with some others or are you being serious with these posts?
If serious...
What has that opinion got to do with the conversation? I haven't seen anyone poo-poo on DI gas in this thread.
Now you are being obtuse, $2K+ KAC 5.56 carbines have not been banned, Finnish rifles have as per my post about filling a void in a Kalashnikov collector's hoard. Anyone that knows anything about pre-ban rifles knows there are not many Sako rifles that made it into this country. This equates to them being "a very expensive AK". But you already knew that.
I don't care about collecting. So the SAKO is just a fancy Finnish made AK that has no special functional advantages over a Bulgarian AK for example. You can protest all you want about that, but using your logic that is what it is. If an SR-15 is just an expensive DI AR from a functional standpoint, then a SAKO is just an outrageously overpriced AK. We're using your reasoning here, not mine.
MountainRaven
10-11-18, 18:37
Of course the truth is Fisher developed the pen independent of NASA and in truth it was just a happy chance that the pen came out in time for missions into space.
And Russian Cosmonauts use Fisher's pen, as well.
I don't care about collecting. So the SAKO is just a fancy Finnish made AK that has no special functional advantages over a Bulgarian AK for example. You can protest all you want about that, but using your logic that is what it is. If an SR-15 is just an expensive DI AR from a functional standpoint, then a SAKO is just an outrageously overpriced AK. We're using your reasoning here, not mine.
The SAKO has better sights and a much better barrel than anything to ever come out of the Soviet bloc.
Moose-Knuckle
10-11-18, 18:43
I don't care about collecting. So the SAKO is just a fancy Finnish made AK that has no special functional advantages over a Bulgarian AK for example. You can protest all you want about that, but using your logic that is what it is. If an SR-15 is just an expensive DI AR from a functional standpoint, then a SAKO is just an outrageously overpriced AK. We're using your reasoning here, not mine.
So you are now part of the group on this forum who troll threads that mention AK's and you like your high doses of dopamine.
Cool.
You still haven't answered my question of what a $2K+ SR-15 can do that a sub $1K 6920 cannot.
Coal Dragger
10-11-18, 21:46
Why should I answer that? You don’t seem interested in the answer.
I find it amusing that you apply your values selectively in this instance. A $2K 5.56 AR variant is of no value to you because it does nothing within your envelope of uses that an approximately $1K Colt does. You see zero function difference and do not care about refinements and improvements to the design enough to acknowledge those improvements as worthy of consideration. You throw up objections about proprietary parts, even though I’ve never heard of an E3 bolt failing. Hell the KAC barrels are evidently capable of a useful service life way beyond that of a Colt barrel, admittedly both are capable of burning enough ammo you could have bought a decent used car.
Yet you lust after an even more expensive, rare, and unobtainable AK variant that literally has no supply of spare parts at all in this market. Even though that SAKO AK is functionally no better than a Russian or Eastern European AK. By your logic applied to AR variants the SAKO is pointless and stupid because a much cheaper AK that will last just as long, and is more widely used (evidently your metric of excellence) and will launch bullets of your desired caliber just like the SAKO. You justify this want from the standpoint of a collector and AK enthusiast, not a user who simply desires a functional durable long gun for the minimum cost possible.
All of that is fine, but it is amusing watching you twist yourself up justifying your tastes while you Pooh Pooh those things you don’t like (even though you have not tried them). Intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency is rampant on enthusiast forums, and I’m guilty of it as well.
I’ll leave you with this explanation in as much as it will ever sink in for you: I like the Knight’s Armament gun’s because they’re very well made, and utilize what I consider substantive improvements in both the design and function of the DI M4/AR. I like them for the good accessories included that taken in balance reduce the relative cost compared to other options on the market. At the end of the day I appreciate the incremental improvements in user friendliness of the SR-15 versus my Colt, to me the improvements are worth the money; not from a collector standpoint but as a shooter. The KAC is easier to shoot well. You might not care about that, it sounds like you’re more interested in gun collecting. Which is fine.
As for the SAKO, where do you get this notion that I’m bashing on AK’s or the SAKO? I’d love to have one, or a Valmet. They represent and deliver a similar level of attention to detail, quality, and improvements to the AK that the SR-15 does to the AR. I appreciate that sort of dedication to best effort design and manufacturing, regardless of firearm type.
Of course the truth is Fisher developed the pen independent of NASA and in truth it was just a happy chance that the pen came out in time for missions into space.
Was just using the example, wasn't trying to say Nasa designed it.
Ummm, what’s with all the banter over the Sako? Everyone knows the SwissArms 550/551/553 is the pinnacle of the AK design.
Moose-Knuckle
10-12-18, 05:10
Why should I answer that?
Q&A is part of, well you know discussion forums and basic human syntax.
You don’t seem interested in the answer.
Actually I'm very interested to the answer of my question hence why I have asked you it multiple times now.
I find it amusing that you apply your values selectively in this instance.
Um yeah, I haven't discussed "my values" in this thread thus far and find your emotional attachment to an inanimate object utterly entertaining.
A $2K 5.56 AR variant is of no value to you because it does nothing within your envelope of uses that an approximately $1K Colt does.
So once again, what does a $2K+ 16" DI 5.56 AR do "within your envelope" that a sub $1K 16" DI 5.56 AR cannot? You do realize that is a legitimate question and not a personal affront against you right?
You see zero function difference and do not care about refinements and improvements to the design enough to acknowledge those improvements as worthy of consideration. You throw up objections about proprietary parts, even though I’ve never heard of an E3 bolt failing. Hell the KAC barrels are evidently capable of a useful service life way beyond that of a Colt barrel, admittedly both are capable of burning enough ammo you could have bought a decent used car.
So your all butt hurt because "I don't acknowledge perceived improvements" on a better mouse trap. Yeah I never "objected" to any proprietary parts, rather I merely pointed out the fact they're there and that some consumers might not find that to be advantageous.
But reading comprehension is a thing, post #112 on page six of this thread:
I have no doubt that Mr. Knight and his company has taken Mr. Stoner's design to the next level. But as with all things there comes a point of diminishing return. No one is saying that KAC does not make a solid product. For me not only does the cost put them out of my interest but so does their proprietary components. If one of my AR's experiences a malfunction / critical component failure I can literally drop in any bolt, ejector, etc. and keep it running.
Yet you lust after an even more expensive, rare, and unobtainable AK variant that literally has no supply of spare parts at all in this market.
You sir are the one who for whatever reason first mentioned a Sako AK variant in post #104 on page six. I simply agreed with you in wanting one due to the manufacturer and their rarity and now you are stuck on this Sako tangent which is epic btw.
Even though that SAKO AK is functionally no better than a Russian or Eastern European AK.
How do we know this to be fact? The Finnish, Swiss, and Israelis all made refinements on their respective Kalashnikov variants and are regarded with a higher standard than Russian, CHICOM, or any of the Eastern Block nation variants.
By your logic applied to AR variants the SAKO is pointless and stupid because a much cheaper AK that will last just as long, and is more widely used (evidently your metric of excellence) and will launch bullets of your desired caliber just like the SAKO. You justify this want from the standpoint of a collector and AK enthusiast, not a user who simply desires a functional durable long gun for the minimum cost possible.
To date I can think of no semiautomatic AR variants that are banned, well at least in my state. If any of them were to be banned the ones out there in the wild would go up in value though the AR market is completely saturated and have become the proverbial dime a dozen when compared to the number of Finnish AK's available on the US commercial market. Rarity commands a premium price with regards to collectible goods.
All of that is fine, but it is amusing watching you twist yourself up justifying your tastes while you Pooh Pooh those things you don’t like (even though you have not tried them). Intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency is rampant on enthusiast forums, and I’m guilty of it as well.
I'm not the one twisting myself up and justifying my tastes, look no further than the closest mirror. I have over 18K posts on this forum, please provide me a link were I "Pooh Pooh" on KAC or any other manufacturer of a known quality and said I don't like them. Asking you what a 16" 5.56 KAC rifle can do that a 16" 5.56 Colt rifle cannot has really got you bent around the axle hasn't? :lol:
I’ll leave you with this explanation in as much as it will ever sink in for you: I like the Knight’s Armament gun’s because they’re very well made, and utilize what I consider substantive improvements in both the design and function of the DI M4/AR. I like them for the good accessories included that taken in balance reduce the relative cost compared to other options on the market. At the end of the day I appreciate the incremental improvements in user friendliness of the SR-15 versus my Colt, to me the improvements are worth the money; not from a collector standpoint but as a shooter. The KAC is easier to shoot well. You might not care about that, it sounds like you’re more interested in gun collecting. Which is fine.
Yeah that is not what I asked you at all.
You are more than entitled to spend your hard earned money where and when you choose to. I've never once suggested otherwise. This is a firearm forum comprised of end users, collectors, industry pros, gun geeks, etc. There is no wrong answer for why a guy chooses what he chooses.
As for the SAKO, where do you get this notion that I’m bashing on AK’s or the SAKO? I’d love to have one, or a Valmet. They represent and deliver a similar level of attention to detail, quality, and improvements to the AK that the SR-15 does to the AR. I appreciate that sort of dedication to best effort design and manufacturing, regardless of firearm type.
I don't think you were bashing AK's though that would be perfectly fine if you were, after all you are the one who brought Sako AK's into this conversation with regards to wanting to acquire one. I simply asked if you were trolling because over the last two years there has been an uptick of trolling in threads that discuss AK's for some reason.
SPEAKING OF RABBIT HOLES----- SETTLE DOWN :big_boss:
Doc Safari
10-12-18, 08:38
Actually it is "perfection is the enemy of good enough" and is usually used to justify an AK over an AR. The original example was the NASA zero gravity pen vs. the russian use of a pencil.
I prefer the way Shakespeare put it: "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well." In plain non-Elizabethan English it means "Don't screw up what's good trying to be perfect."
RetroRevolver77
10-12-18, 10:14
delete
I feel like I'm about to go down an MP5 rabbit hole. Probably not an HK as they're too expensive, but a quality clone or two (Zenith or PTR). I know the design is out of date and all, but they're just so damn cool.
They worth the fun or should I stay away?
RetroRevolver77
10-13-18, 09:38
deleted
I feel like I'm about to go down an MP5 rabbit hole. Probably not an HK as they're too expensive, but a quality clone or two (Zenith or PTR). I know the design is out of date and all, but they're just so damn cool.
They worth the fun or should I stay away?
I honestly like the zenith and have real hk guns. It isn't as nice but it runs. Dakota Tactical would be the best of the clones from my experience. Its worth saying that the mp5 still holds up well against a lot of the newer designs which are straight blowback.
That's the another rabbit hole, never buy clones. However technically, the licensed copies such as the Zenith weapons- are true HK's.
Zenith isn't licensed. MKE was but the license has expired. That is why the guns don't have any of the upgrades that were done over time in them. Pretty sure its the same with the pof guns which are no where to the level of hk.
That's the another rabbit hole, never buy clones. However technically, the licensed copies such as the Zenith weapons- are true HK's. I had several but went to actual mil spec German MP5's because I didn't want a clone that I couldn't match a German handgun to- simply, it wasn't worth it to me to own anything less.
PTR version any good? I a going to say "no" based on your first sentence. Well, at least not as good as the original. But one can get the PTR with brace for under $1700 all day. PTR have been making HK clones for a while; a buddy of mine has two of their 91s and really likes them.
Zeniths are impossible to find and to get an HK you're looking at ~$3,000 (right?) for the parts and possible smithing. At that price point, I am not interested anymore. A little too steep for a nice-to-have range toy.
ETA - DT is too expensive for me; I could probably do a Zenith but I won't be paying GB gougers and it must be new so it's a matter of finding one at the right time & price. I've not heard anyone say anything bad about the Zeniths.
Still trying to collect some experience on the PTRs. Seems like the only people who review - as typical - are at either end of the bell-curve: either it's great or it sucks.
RetroRevolver77
10-13-18, 10:22
deleted
I wouldn't rule out the PTR's at all.
I've had three PTR91's and they were all good rifles. They generally have great looking welds and the black finish they put over parkerizing is very nice. I would expect the same from their Mp5 clones. I'll bet they'll run just fine against the not-currently-under-HK-supervision Turkish models.
Not only do they have a good reputation so far but they are also made in America. They are also "sear pack" ready. I'm not sure if the Turkish guns are.
I've been tempted to get a PTR Mp5 clone myself but it would be an expensive toy for me and I don't care for their ergo's. What I really want is an optic mount for my cheek-rest'ed semi Vz-61!
I want an mp5 but I have an m11....with a lage..and that tickles my fancy lust for sub machine guns.
Soon getting the 556 upper and thats fine.
I miss my mg42/59 alot.....
I slept with it and I first got it...
And I miss it..
Because forget teotwawki when ya got an mg42 in 308.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
MountainRaven
10-13-18, 22:52
Battlefield Vegas has found that all their roller-delayed blowback guns are about as reliable and as durable as any other they've used: HK, Cohaire, PTR, Century, POF, MKE, Special Weapons, Zenith, and Atlantic Firearms. The trick is keeping up on extractor spring and recoil spring replacement. The only brand they had any special problems with was a run of POFs. (BFV at one time stated that they would only purchase Omegas for their MP5s going forward.)
And, obviously, Battlefield Vegas is most interested in running the guns full-auto, all the time... at least the 9mm and 5.56mm ones. So accuracy is not the most important - or even a particularly important - aspect.
Battlefield Vegas has found that all their roller-delayed blowback guns are about as reliable and as durable as any other they've used: HK, Cohaire, PTR, Century, POF, MKE, Special Weapons, Zenith, and Atlantic Firearms. The trick is keeping up on extractor spring and recoil spring replacement. The only brand they had any special problems with was a run of POFs. (BFV at one time stated that they would only purchase Omegas for their MP5s going forward.)
And, obviously, Battlefield Vegas is most interested in running the guns full-auto, all the time... at least the 9mm and 5.56mm ones. So accuracy is not the most important - or even a particularly important - aspect.
Coharie, Special Weapons and Omega are all the same thing. Atlantic isn't a manufacturer.
I'm sure BFV has some kind of purchase agreement with Omega, to suggest they are every bit as good as HK is Todd Bailey talking.
MountainRaven
10-14-18, 17:19
Coharie, Special Weapons and Omega are all the same thing. Atlantic isn't a manufacturer.
I'm sure BFV has some kind of purchase agreement with Omega, to suggest they are every bit as good as HK is Todd Bailey talking.
Atlantic Firearms has, "Atlantic Arms Mfg," listed as a maker on their website. I've seen Atlantic Firearms post elsewhere that they consider Omega guns to be solid mid-tier roller-delayed blowback guns.
Outside of that, I advise you to take it up with Battlefield Vegas.
Atlantic Firearms has, "Atlantic Arms Mfg," listed as a maker on their website. I've seen Atlantic Firearms post elsewhere that they consider Omega guns to be solid mid-tier roller-delayed blowback guns.
Outside of that, I advise you to take it up with Battlefield Vegas.
Last I checked Atlantic didn't even have a SOT let alone an 07 FFL. I know they have commissioned unique items for their website but so far as I know everything has actually been manufactured by someone else.
As far as "mid tier" what does that mean? If it means not as good as HK or HK contracts but better than some of the horribly out of spec crap clones out there, sure but not sure that means anything reliable. Is "mid tier" almost HK or slightly better than the other crap clones? And who specifically made that determination?
Anyone can say anything they wish, do you really think they'd say "Yeah they are crap but they are cheap, basically disposable and a lot easier to get than factory HK guns" assuming that was the case?
I'd be pretty ok with anyone saying "We have had good luck with Brand X", but when you declare a US clone, especially a Bailey clone, to be pretty much equal to HK and HK contracts...well then I have to question the validity of anything coming from that source.
I went even get into the fact that they put Century in the same basic class.
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