View Full Version : If SBRs Became Title 1 Firearms, What Would Your Practical Carbine Be...?
Honestly, I still can't believe it's a law. Been a long time since Bonnie and Clyde ran around with chopped up BARs. Depression era gangsters brought all this down on us at a time when America was probably the most socialist we've ever been.
When the men who founded this country, and more importantly the ones who explored the territories like Boone and Crockett, they didn't have to worry about if their firearms met a "sporter qualification" or met a certain arbitrary standard.
They carried firearms for hunting and defense. So if we somehow got shorties and suppressors removed from the NFA, what would your primary go to look like? Would terminal ballistic considerations make anything less than 14.5" a novelty gun or would the 6920 become the absolute gold standard now that 6933s were more pedestrian?
Obviously PCC's would be a different discussion since they have greater suppressor performance and short PDW setups would make popular home defense guns where people might have previously relied on just a handgun.
I think I would be in the 12-14 inch barrel length, depending mostly on length/weight of mini suppressor (just enough to take the edge off).
If non-suppressed, I’ve been happy with most 14-16” carbines.
A 12" bbl 5.56 seems pretty good for self defense around anything smaller than a large country plot or ranch with some 75 or 77gr ammo, and a 6.75" bbl .300blk MCX with a folding brace or stock is about an inch shorter than an MP5 and looks like it fragments out to 50 meters with 110gr VMAX.
Other than that, practicality is out the window and I'm looking at collecting visually correct copies of various military firearms. An AKSU would be cool. I already picked up an MKE MP5 clone pistol. I'd like to SBR a VZ58 just to have the correct 15" barrel.
You know, the main thing bugging me about NFA, specific to machineguns and SBRs, is needing permission before crossing state lines. How do you handle getting a job offer in another state if the ATF takes 2 months to respond to a 'cross state lines' request? I've gone to buying new rifle caliber and SMG type firearms as pistols whenever possible for the flexibility, and just using pistol braces for barrels under 16" in preparation for the day I can get my family settled permanently and start doing Form 1s.
It all makes you realize just how dated and how much a product of manipulative, grasping minds the NFA is.
PatrioticDisorder
10-04-18, 06:07
As goofy as the NFA is, I’ve Form 1’d every rifle I have (minus pending MGs on Form 4s). If HPA every happens (doubtful) I’d love to see SBRs also removed.... Of course the elephant in the room is 922(o), i’ll gladly lose on my “investments” to be able to make all my long guns MGs. My favorite AR length is 10.3”, I would be willing to place a wager that 10.3-11.5” would be by far the most common lengths if SBRs were title 1 (particularly if cans were also over the counter).
There is no reason why one can't go into a store and do a BR check and walk out with suppressor or "SBR" Even if the dealer marked a block indicating such and even if one payed 200 and received a stamp or all of it electronic.
Me?-probably an 11.5"
I would take the SBA3 brace off my 11.5" Tinker and put on my LMT SOPMOD stock and a Tango Down vertical fore grip. That's it.
I think the 10.3-11.5 would be the popular choice for SBR's.
Perhaps, what would be better is if they changed the definition for a SBR. Say a barrel + non permanently attached muzzle devise has to be at least 13" to be title 1 compliant. Anything less than 13" OAL is an SBR. That opens the door just a little bit, still has the same look and feel as the NFA to make our government happy and still feel like they are in control, and you and I get to throw a small victory parade for the 2A.
14.5’s and 13.7’s would be more attractive without the NFA. Even with the hassle, I like them. Hopefully I’ll be building a 14” soon with a BRT barrel I pre-ordered. BCM Kino would be hard to beat, also.
I bet we would see more SBR specific ammo.
SomeOtherGuy
10-04-18, 08:38
My primary defensive gun would be a 12.5" in 300 Blackout, with a QD can as short as possible (3" maybe) just to take the edge off.
For all other purposes I would probably stick with 16" and longer barrels.
12.5" with a mini suppressor and a nice LPVO.
Loaded with the right ammo I can't think of much that setup couldn't do.
(Edit): Since we're dreaming here, my dream rifle would be a 12.5" SOCOM barrel with a 11.5"-11.7" Geissele MK16 rail, SF Mini suppressor, and quality 1-6 in a Geissele mount.
Me?-probably an 11.5"
Same. Title status changes nothing for me. I already have more ARs than I can stand to look at.
A 5.56 mm 12.5" with a mini can. My current go to now.
A 5.56 mm 12.5" with a mini can. My current go to now.
Idk. You can’t fit as many LaRue clips on it as you can a 16” gun
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RetroRevolver77
10-04-18, 11:38
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Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 13:31
It all makes you realize just how dated and how much a product of manipulative, grasping minds the NFA is.
Yup, when the BATFE green lighted arm braces (and shouldering them), face blades, and "firearms" like the Shockwave it really spot lighted how ****ing retarded NFA laws are.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/45051804142_5e87a9b97e_b.jpg
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 13:43
A 5.56 mm 12.5" with a mini can. My current go to now.
Doc, what barrel manufacture is your go to these days?
I'd throw a BCM stock on my 12.5" pistol and call it a day, but I know CA would still find a way to make it illegal. As it stands I have one of those things on it that gives you the cheek weld of a SOPMOD stock attached to a A5 buffer tube for the extra LoP so "if" I were to shoulder it, it would be comparable to an M4 stock fully collapsed, not that I would shoulder a pistol.
Doc, what barrel manufacture is your go to these days?
My go to 12.5 is a Noveske CHF with an AAC Mini4 can. It has an EOTech on it and fixed DD sights.
Idk. You can’t fit as many LaRue clips on it as you can a 16” gun
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Don't worry...... My other 16" and 18" guns make up for it..... ;)
MountainRaven
10-04-18, 16:26
I would agree with the 12.5" in 5.56mm.
Moose-Knuckle
10-04-18, 16:46
My go to 12.5 is a Noveske CHF ....
Thanks.
Do you have any experience with Hodge or Centurian barrels?
I think 11.5 to 12.5 would be far more standard.
Really where it would shine though would be with pistol caliber stuff. All of these mp5 clones, cz, the mpx, etc all just sold normally with the stocks.
If SBRs became Title 1 firearms, mine would look like this, except $200 cheaper.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wMcWSpf/2/dac42d91/X3/i-wMcWSpf-X3.jpg
I already have more ARs than I can stand to look at.
Truth. I wholeheartedly agree.
Truth. I wholeheartedly agree.
Im here to support you guys.
PM me for shipping address... and Im such a nice guy, Ill even cover shipping.
As for the OP, mine would probably be 12.5. If anything else it would be 11.5.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-04-18, 21:08
I've found 11.5" to be the best all around carbine for me.
If SBRs were deregulated tomorrow there would be an intial "Short barrel all the things!" for me.
More realistically though I'd probably take the monstrosity that is my HD carbine and make it even more of an abomination with an 11.5 or 12.5" barrel....if the latter possibly a Kino style arrangement. I have already given some thought to doing it via the NFA route for a while, being able to avoid that BS would be awesome.
http://i.imgur.com/iAFKdWq.jpg
And I would very quickly assemble a fantastic 11.5" barreled RO733 style gun that would probably start pulling Jeep ride-along duty as well.
Thanks.
Do you have any experience with Hodge or Centurian barrels?
Don't waste your time with them. If you want a great 12.5" barrel get a Daniel Defense.
Diamondback
10-05-18, 00:39
As a rookie who hasn't gotten to first firing on EITHER of his AR's yet...
The 10.3" pistol I'm working on for my briefcase would stay a pistol so it remains CCW eligible (though it might gain a can in the Detached Accessories organizer alongside the D60 reload), but my go-to for Home D CQC would be a 12.5, call it a "GL/SSC-ish" based on the rumored West Coast variant that used 10.75" URX II rails in place of the unobtainium DD's. My 14.5 M4 replica that's in planning would be getting a carbine stock in place of the currently-planned pistol brace, though...
My personal "ideal CQC Home D" after Death Of NFA would probably look something like... Bear in mind, some of my choices are parts I've personally been lucky with, though many have had experiences the other way.
--12.5" barrel with undetermined FH and can
--Vltor A5 buffer system with LAW sidefolder
--Longest possible "eight-point" M-LOK handguard with full-length top-rail to clear can
--FAB Defense AG43 grip (or similar shape from other vendor, this one just seems to fit me best), PTK angled foregrip and VTS thumbrest
--Lasermax Uni-max green-beam laser at extreme front of rail, with small light like a TLR-1 or Olight PL-1 on top and a fixed front sight right behind
--DI Falcon RDS and Diamondhead rear BUIS (I'd prefer a fixed rear, but a sight that works well with my horrible near-blind eyes trumps all else, and these two win there)
--FAB MG20 mag-carrier foregrip snuggled between AFG and magwell and GL-MAG mag-carrier stock, both with Magpul D60 drums
--Third D60 in magwell
I'd stick with my Noveske 10.5" and AAC can. I'd probably swap it out for a mini can if anything. Of course there is a ton of other stuff I'd like to lay my hands on though.
I'd get a Colt Commando w/11.5" FSP bbl., RIS II Mk18 FSP rail, Troy rear flip up BUIS, SOPMOD B5 stock w/intermediate buffer system, Aimpoint T2, Surefire SOCOM Suppressor and throw a Vickers Blue Force sling on it....as my first SBR and can setup!
NYH1.
CleverNickname
10-05-18, 13:01
It might convince me to buy a PS90 with the correct barrel length. But I have plenty of SBRs as it is, so not much would change.
Moose-Knuckle
10-05-18, 13:31
Don't waste your time with them. If you want a great 12.5" barrel get a Daniel Defense.
Would you go with DD over the current crop of Noveske barrels? I have zero experience with Noveske but have read in the technical sub-forums that their QC has suffered since John's passing.
TriggerFish
10-05-18, 13:31
I'd buy the same Colt 6945 BUT save the 11.3 months & $200+ "fees".
https://i.imgur.com/3XbcVOQ.jpg
Of course that ship has long sailed... I never did finish that time machine.
MadAngler1
10-14-18, 19:30
“If SBRs Became Title 1 Firearms, What Would Your Practical Carbine Be...?“
For an AR, 11.5”. If and when I get my hands on another SCAR 16, 10”. With a suppressor, they can do everything under 200 yards and even take deer or hogs with the right loads (Barnes TSX). If I need to shoot farther than that, I would use my 18” SPR build.
If I need a heavier caliber all around rifle, it would be my SCAR 17. I would keep the barrel length 16” as it works quite well and I’m not kicking down doors.
RetroRevolver77
10-14-18, 20:07
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DD 10.3” barrel and DD MFR 9.0 rail. Aimpoint Micro T2. Offset Surefire M952V Milennum Light.
I have no use for a short-barrel 5.56. A 16 inch barrel is about as short as I care for in the caliber.
I would like a 16 inch bull-pup with a much shorter LOP than what the AUG and Tavor's have, though. (Would put it under 26 inches OAL I think)
I would also want a short barreled lever or bolt action rifle in a pistol caliber with a suppressor. (subsonic bullets)
A 5-inch barrel pistol-caliber carbine would be cool. A suppressor on it would also be neat.
I'd like a double-barrel shotgun or two with 12-14 inch barrels.
But to answer the question:
I would not put a shorter barrel on my Beretta ARX100.
If I really wanted an SBR in a rifle caliber it would be a @12 inch 7.62x39 Kalashnikov or the aforementioned bull-pup.
Would you go with DD over the current crop of Noveske barrels? I have zero experience with Noveske but have read in the technical sub-forums that their QC has suffered since John's passing.
Absolutely not. I have 5 from when John was with us and 4 from after. They are all GTG. The internet hype is pure BS.
As for DD, if I couldn't get a Noveske I would get a DD. They make a great barrel and know have to make a real "proper" gas port that will shoot anything and is reliable.
RobertTheTexan
10-15-18, 08:43
Moose,
I ain’t doc, but I’ll say my peace regarding your question. The DD 12.5, LaRue 12”, and Noveske 12.5 will run anything you feed it. The other barrels you mentioned often need a can to cycle all lower pressure 223 consistently. Others have not experienced that, but many have. I own a Centurion 12.5 and it stays suppressed and runs like a maniac with my AAC can. And it’s accurate as well. Pull the can off and try to run Freedom 223? Different story.
I mentioned this in another post asking about the best 12.5 barrel. I’ve owned a 11.5 DD and a 12” LaRue. The BLUF? Those barrels along with Noveske 12.5 with eat everything at the local Chinese Buffet, including the sushi that really isn’t real sushi. The other barrels you mentioned will dine more often at boutique Japanese sushi restaurant and will choke and gag on fake sushi.
I believe for a SHTF or a “go bang no matter what I feed it gun”, the DD12.5 is the winner. I’d feel equally as confident with the LaRue 12”. Both of those are gassier than your Japanese sushi barrels, but there’s ways to reduce that, for like $4.99.
Absolutely not. I have 5 from when John was with us and 4 from after. They are all GTG. The internet hype is pure BS.
As for DD, if I couldn't get a Noveske I would get a DD. They make a great barrel and know have to make a real "proper" gas port that will shoot anything and is reliable.
Doc,
This is good to hear about Noveske. I had a 16” SS that would be consistently under MOA and sometimes in the .5-.6 range. Kinda wish I hadn’t sold it now. I’m in the market for a better performing 12.5” barrel that will be my go to “mini recce” topped with an NX8. It’s got a BA 12.5” right now that can’t hold a group better than 2” and the groups seem to walk a little. More testing needed, but I would be happy with 1-1.25 MOA. Would you say the CL Noveske would get this done with match ammo? Or would the SS be necessary for that?
Doc,
This is good to hear about Noveske. I had a 16” SS that would be consistently under MOA and sometimes in the .5-.6 range. Kinda wish I hadn’t sold it now. I’m in the market for a better performing 12.5” barrel that will be my go to “mini recce” topped with an NX8. It’s got a BA 12.5” right now that can’t hold a group better than 2” and the groups seem to walk a little. More testing needed, but I would be happy with 1-1.25 MOA. Would you say the CL Noveske would get this done with match ammo? Or would the SS be necessary for that?
For that set up get the SS 12.5 barrel. It will be much better suited for what you want.
For that set up get the SS 12.5 barrel. It will be much better suited for what you want.
Interesting, I would have thought the CL offering would meet the accuracy requirement. I didn’t mention the intended range, but I’m looking for it to play effectively out to 400-500 yds. Weight is something else I’m considering too and the SS is a few ounces heavier than CL...probably won’t matter that much, but it’s still there. Any thoughts on whether dimpling the barrel (Marvin Pitts) would change accuracy?
ETA: All accuracy requirements that I’m talking about here are with heavy OTM rounds. I don’t expect 55gr FMJ to meet 1-1.25 MOA. And truthfully, I’d be ok with 1.5 MOA
ETA2: it will also be suppressed
12.5" BCM
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-12-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-VTAC-p/bcm-urg-std-12%20vtrx11.htm
RetroRevolver77
10-15-18, 12:35
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Can someone explain the logic of how this would be beneficial? A 12.5" barreled AR, with a 1.5" muzzle device, bringing the overall length out to roughly 14" when you can already own a 16" overall length barrel with pinned flash hider. Saving 2 inches? Maybe if it had a folding stock but otherwise it's kind of pointless.
For me and my experience in a close quarters environment, a pinned 14.5” is about as long as I want to go (comfortably). Even going to a 16” w/ muzzle device changes how I maneuver the gun in a hall/room setting. By the same token, going to a 12.5” is even better than 14.5”. Then you start throwing suppressors on each of these and the changes magnify. With my chosen suppressor (Ops Inc), I can keep OAL down below a pinned 14.5” OAL WITH suppressor attached.
On the long range side of the equation, 12.5” is a sweet spot in velocity compared to other SBR lengths for reaching out to my perceived max effective range of 400-500 yds. Yes this can, and has, been done with 10.5 and 11.5 as well, but I like the extra velocity and dwell time of the 12.5” for reliability. Doc has also mentioned that 12.5” stabilizes the heavy bullets better as well.
To me it’s just the right bridge between both worlds.
Moose-Knuckle
10-15-18, 16:39
Absolutely not. I have 5 from when John was with us and 4 from after. They are all GTG. The internet hype is pure BS.
As for DD, if I couldn't get a Noveske I would get a DD. They make a great barrel and know have to make a real "proper" gas port that will shoot anything and is reliable.
Thanks for getting back to me Doc, good to know the Noveskes are still G2G.
Do you happen to know the date range (in years) that DD was having hiccups with there gas port sizing?
Moose,
I ain’t doc, but I’ll say my peace regarding your question. The DD 12.5, LaRue 12”, and Noveske 12.5 will run anything you feed it. The other barrels you mentioned often need a can to cycle all lower pressure 223 consistently. Others have not experienced that, but many have. I own a Centurion 12.5 and it stays suppressed and runs like a maniac with my AAC can. And it’s accurate as well. Pull the can off and try to run Freedom 223? Different story.
I mentioned this in another post asking about the best 12.5 barrel. I’ve owned a 11.5 DD and a 12” LaRue. The BLUF? Those barrels along with Noveske 12.5 with eat everything at the local Chinese Buffet, including the sushi that really isn’t real sushi. The other barrels you mentioned will dine more often at boutique Japanese sushi restaurant and will choke and gag on fake sushi.
I believe for a SHTF or a “go bang no matter what I feed it gun”, the DD12.5 is the winner. I’d feel equally as confident with the LaRue 12”. Both of those are gassier than your Japanese sushi barrels, but there’s ways to reduce that, for like $4.99.
Amigo, that might be the single greatest barrel analogy I've ever read!
I appreciate your input as well, it put it into perspective perfectly lol and I'm a fiend for Asian cuisine, well except for the raw stuff. :cool:
I don’t see myself ever touching Noveske again. My sample size is only three - one during the John era and two after his death. Never had an issue with number one. Number two had a shit chrome lining job that lead to cracking and very inconsistent accuracy. I realized the issue at about 4k rounds, no idea how long it had been going on. Noveske replaced it (after I paid to ship it to them) and do a good job saving my pinned muzzle device. They also got it back to me relatively quickly. But, it recoiled far worse than my issued M4 despite being a middy, having a WarComp, and using an A5-3 with green spring. I also didn’t feel that the accuracy was where it should be. I didn’t test it thoroughly, but I had three separate three round groups of 77 gr BH at approximately 50m that were between 1” and 1 1/4.” In similar conditions, I put five rounds of 68 gr BH in a 1 1/4” group at 60 out of my URG-I.
I could have maybe lived with one of those issues, if it wasn’t supposed to be a $3-400 barrel. Like I said, I don’t see myself ever buying from them again. All of this is covered here, the thread was titled something like “Huuuge groups today, what’s going on?”
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Interesting, I would have thought the CL offering would meet the accuracy requirement. I didn’t mention the intended range, but I’m looking for it to play effectively out to 400-500 yds. Weight is something else I’m considering too and the SS is a few ounces heavier than CL...probably won’t matter that much, but it’s still there. Any thoughts on whether dimpling the barrel (Marvin Pitts) would change accuracy?
ETA: All accuracy requirements that I’m talking about here are with heavy OTM rounds. I don’t expect 55gr FMJ to meet 1-1.25 MOA. And truthfully, I’d be ok with 1.5 MOA
ETA2: it will also be suppressed
If you are going with a 1-8x I would go ahead and get the SS to maximize the combo.
Thanks for getting back to me Doc, good to know the Noveskes are still G2G.
Do you happen to know the date range (in years) that DD was having hiccups with there gas port sizing?
Amigo, that might be the single greatest barrel analogy I've ever read!
I appreciate your input as well, it put it into perspective perfectly lol and I'm a fiend for Asian cuisine, well except for the raw stuff. :cool:
DD has always had good port sizes. That was a slam on people who say stuff is over gassed when they don't understand why it is gasses like that.
12.5" BCM
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Standard-12-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-VTAC-p/bcm-urg-std-12%20vtrx11.htm
I had ok need of those and was lucky to get 2.5 moa..... At best. Total crap.
For me and my experience in a close quarters environment, a pinned 14.5” is about as long as I want to go (comfortably). Even going to a 16” w/ muzzle device changes how I maneuver the gun in a hall/room setting. By the same token, going to a 12.5” is even better than 14.5”. Then you start throwing suppressors on each of these and the changes magnify. With my chosen suppressor (Ops Inc), I can keep OAL down below a pinned 14.5” OAL WITH suppressor attached.
On the long range side of the equation, 12.5” is a sweet spot in velocity compared to other SBR lengths for reaching out to my perceived max effective range of 400-500 yds. Yes this can, and has, been done with 10.5 and 11.5 as well, but I like the extra velocity and dwell time of the 12.5” for reliability. Doc has also mentioned that 12.5” stabilizes the heavy bullets better as well.
To me it’s just the right bridge between both worlds.
You hit the nail on the head.
John Noveske did a ton of research on different barrel lengths with MK262 and the 12.5 was the shortest that you can go and still get good stabilization on the round.
Interesting choice.
What makes this your top selection?
The 9" barrel or the APC piston setup or the combo of the two?
Probably would pick up a B&T APC223 with sidefolding stock and 9" barrel. Course you can get them now with a sidefolding brace.
Can someone explain the logic of how this would be beneficial? A 12.5" barreled AR, with a 1.5" muzzle device, bringing the overall length out to roughly 14" when you can already own a 16" overall length barrel with pinned flash hider. Saving 2 inches? Maybe if it had a folding stock but otherwise it's kind of pointless.
For me, it would only be practical as a suppressed weapon. I could also see people choosing it to have a 5.56 home defense weapon, but again I'd really want a suppressor. Indoor performance concerns of a 5.56 from a short barrel, even 7", really won't amount to much.
RobertTheTexan
10-15-18, 22:42
Can someone explain the logic of how this would be beneficial? A 12.5" barreled AR, with a 1.5" muzzle device, bringing the overall length out to roughly 14" when you can already own a 16" overall length barrel with pinned flash hider. Saving 2 inches? Maybe if it had a folding stock but otherwise it's kind of pointless.
Do you prefer a 14.5 over a 16” AR?
For me. I’m not measuring 12.5+ a FH vs. a pinned 14.5. My SBR’s have cans, or they are in the process of all having can. So it’s not a 14” OAL SBR vs. a 16” OAL 14.5. By the time I add my current suppressors which are a bit over 7.6” long; then yes imo, 2” does matter if I’m clearing my dashboard in my truck or clearing a door jam or cabinet in my house. I’m sure there are plenty who say the 12.5 is too long and have mentioned shorter barrels and this part of that part and whatnot- some of which has zero bearing on performance of the weapon. But as it has been mentioned by people who have shot a lot bad people in the face with the self same 12.5 we are talking about - it is the best compromise of short barrel maneuverability, reliability, and ballistic performance. That pretty much seems like the trifecta right there.
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RobertTheTexan
10-15-18, 23:33
Weight is something else I’m considering too and the SS is a few ounces heavier than CL...probably won’t matter that much, but it’s still there. Any thoughts on whether dimpling the barrel (Marvin Pitts) would change accuracy?
ETA: All accuracy requirements that I’m talking about here are with heavy OTM rounds. I don’t expect 55gr FMJ to meet 1-1.25 MOA. And truthfully, I’d be ok with 1.5 MOA
ETA2: it will also be suppressed
You can call Marvin and see what you’ll shave off. With a 12.5 barrel that isn’t a bull type barrel I do not think the weight savings would be that substantial. Marvin can ball dimple a barrel like nobodies business though. I have a heavy profile SS 308 barrel that I had him ball dimple for a project/build I’m doing for a friend. I honestly wish I had him re-profile the barrel instead. I was a little concerned about whip and accuracy because it was stupid accurate when it came to me and I did not want to risk any of that - so I went the dimple route. Here are a few pics... not to derail or hijack the thread, but just for you to see the level of craftsmanship Marvin is at. So I don’t think I’ve lost any accuracy and well... this will no doubt be the most unusual build I have ever done. And I’m not finished yet.:dirol:
https://i.postimg.cc/k4ctwmPm/56-B834-FD-39-DC-470-A-A833-3-AD1-F4-FB5-A44.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/N0RX9XNL/CB2-B946-B-64-BE-439-D-B56-D-BB5-A4-B0-D28-A4.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/g2CR2sHf/85-B02-AE1-9-D18-442-B-BA5-C-7-C2487774-CD2.jpg
RetroRevolver77
10-16-18, 19:04
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I learned the hard way that 10.5 and below overheat easily. Suppressor-sized Midwest Industries handguards don't help with heat abatement even with that much distance from the barrel.
Moose-Knuckle
10-17-18, 17:19
DD has always had good port sizes. That was a slam on people who say stuff is over gassed when they don't understand why it is gasses like that.
Ah hah, yeah that went right over my head lol. I never committed to memory the DD hate that was spun up a few years back concerning their gas port sizing. I always dismissed it as the Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze crowd complaining that their cheap range fodder wouldn't cycle properly. Thanks again for your input.
I had ok need of those and was lucky to get 2.5 moa..... At best. Total crap.
So does that actually make PCCs more practical in terms of accuracy?
So does that actually make PCCs more practical in terms of accuracy?
What is PCC?
Ah hah, yeah that went right over my head lol. I never committed to memory the DD hate that was spun up a few years back concerning their gas port sizing. I always dismissed it as the Wolf Gold and PMC Bronze crowd complaining that their cheap range fodder wouldn't cycle properly. Thanks again for your input.
Except its the opposite.
And wolf gold has never seemed underpowered to me.
DD Mk18 w/Troy flip-ups and a T2. A great, utilitarian, set-up. Perfect for me.
What is PCC?
Pistol caliber carbine?
What is PCC?
Pistol caliber carbine, HK MP5 and such.
Moose-Knuckle
10-17-18, 23:23
Except its the opposite.
And wolf gold has never seemed underpowered to me.
So was the complaining that DD was over gassed or under? I assume that the "issue" was only their SBRs specifically when run'n a can? But I might have that backwards as well, as I stated above I didn't commit the complaints to memory.
So was the complaining that DD was over gassed or under? I assume that the "issue" was only their SBRs specifically when run'n a can? But I might have that backwards as well, as I stated above I didn't commit the complaints to memory.
The complaints have been that they were over gassed.
I have limited hands on use with DD so no comment on validity.
11.5" in AR, but for everyday I would SBR a Tavor X95 down to a 9" barrel in 300 blk.
hotrodder636
10-18-18, 07:35
B&T for me or Sig 553.
Probably would pick up a B&T APC223 with sidefolding stock and 9" barrel. Course you can get them now with a sidefolding brace.
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 09:17
The complaints have been that they were over gassed.
I have limited hands on use with DD so no comment on validity.
Those were the reports, their barrels are excellent, however I will be a contrarian and say the current gas port size might
be a little undergassed. My 10.3 DD barrels (current gas port size) will not cycle and lock back on weaker .223 ammo with anything heavier than the A5H1 & green sprinco spring combo. So far I have no issues from this, but it will be interesting to see how fast it cycles when my Colt 614 Form 4 clears.
Those were the reports, their barrels are excellent, however I will be a contrarian and say the current gas port size might
be a little undergassed. My 10.3 DD barrels (current gas port size) will not cycle and lock back on weaker .223 ammo with anything heavier than the A5H1 & green sprinco spring combo. So far I have no issues from this, but it will be interesting to see how fast it cycles when my Colt 614 Form 4 clears.
I would agree. AFAIK, the over-gassing complaints were only on MK18s. The DD barrel in my URG-I may be just barely less gassy than my BCM middie, as it will not lock back on M3 PMAGs with an A5-3 and green spring every now and then.
Moose-Knuckle
10-18-18, 13:23
The complaints have been that they were over gassed.
AFAIK, the over-gassing complaints were only on MK18s.
Okay now I'm tracking, thanks.
So does that actually make PCCs more practical in terms of accuracy?
Not what I was saying..... THAT Upper is crap. Not the 12.5" barrel concept.
Pistol caliber carbine, HK MP5 and such.
Got it....... Not my point.... See above
AFAIK, the over-gassing complaints were only on MK18s.
That is my point........ Only the Cloners complained.......
Not what I was saying..... THAT Upper is crap. Not the 12.5" barrel concept.
Oh, I completely missed it. Thanks for the clarification. I keep going back and forth between My Colt 6945 and my MP5 as a dedicated HD weapon.
My go to rifle is a suppressed 11.5 with a Daniel Defense barrel. It shoots nicely with or without the can. I have never felt that it was over gassed. Sample size of one but it has been a great barrel.
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