View Full Version : Any C&R Collectors?
sundance435
10-05-18, 13:27
After years of chasing the latest and greatest in modern firearms, I'm down to Glocks, a few ARs, a 12 gauge pump, and a .357. There really wasn't anything "new" that did anything for me, so I finally bought a Garand a while back after telling myself for years that I was going to get one...one turned into three; then 1903s; now French stuff. For me, it's a lot more fun trying to find certain old military items than buying another Glock or AR and the amount of reading you can on them is endless and fascinating. They're also more fun to shoot. The hardest part now is trying to focus on just a few areas. Still need to find a nice International Garand, a nice M1 carbine, etc. I know I can't get into German stuff yet as I'd be broke in a month from all of the possibilities.
Any other C&R people on here? What are you into? Bonus points for pics of your favorites (either rare or sentimental); stories about how you got this or that are always welcome, too.
It's where I started. My first gun was a 1917 Erfurt Luger which I got in the 4th grade.
I love old battle rifles and 1911's. Getting my C&R license was the best thing I've ever done for my collecting. I love AR's and AK's too, but there's something about wood and blued or parkerized steel in the form of a Garand, K98k, Enfield, etc... that I really enjoy. Hell, I even like Mosin's too, especially Finnish ones!
I collect but they're not safe queens. I shoot everything I own. I don't get to the range often enough, but there's not a single thing in my safe I will not shoot.
The discounts from Numrich and Brownell's make having a C&R license worth it too!
I have a particular fondness for Garands.
https://i.imgur.com/TTBcGAL.jpg
What Razor said almost to a T about curios in general. I come to this forum for serious firearms stuff though haha. M4C definitely emphasizes training and practical use with "modern" firearms, so I go to other forums to discuss C&R and "fun" shooting. Although sometimes I go to the range and shoot old guns under pressure to mimic using them under stress. Some are fine, others are horrendous (talking about you Carcanos) and I would not want to be on a two way range with them.
eightmillimeter
10-05-18, 22:44
My first gun was a Yugo Mauser M48 in unissued condition. Garands are just f-ing awesome and patriotic as hell. M1917’s with good condition bores shoot as good or better than some guns made today. You haven’t lived unless you’ve shot a Mauser 98 long rifle in a soft caliber like 7x57 or 7.65, Remington 1903’s built before the A3 was designed are a special kind of incredible, and milsurp bayonets in general are just plain cool.
So yeah, the whole C&R thing is a good rabbit hole to explore.
Oh, and when the CMP runs out of Garands, which they absolutely will within the next decade, the prices will double overnight and triple in 5 years, so if you’re on the fence, now is the time.
Oh, and when the CMP runs out of Garands, which they absolutely will within the next decade, the prices will double overnight and triple in 5 years, so if you’re on the fence, now is the time.
I wholeheartedly agree with this!
No pics, but I could definitely burn Mosins for firewood and make it through one long cold winter... I just love that ugly Russian stuff.
Another C&R collector here. It's my not-so-serious escape, and has always been immensely rewarding, if not an additional drain on gun funds! All of my stuff is WWI/II, but I focus on WWII German-captured rifles and carbines of other nations, i.e., the stuff that Germany captured and then put to use after they conquered a country. There are tons of variants and you can find some sleepers out there that are brain-meltingly awesome.
Almost forgot:
Here's one you probably haven't seen before. This is a Polish wz.91/98/26 (Google that...) Mosin-Nagant built on a captured Russian Imperial receiver from 1895. These were short rifles chambered in 7.92X57mm (8mm Mauser) and were extensively worked over by the Poles. This one was built in Lwow, and is 100% matching. This fell into German hands at some point after September 1939 and they blued the bolt in their characteristic manner. It has been 'duffel cut,' indicating capture by a GI before it was sent home to the US. These are wicked rare, especially in all-matching condition, and the ones that show German use are even harder to find.
Pat
The center piece of my collection is an all matching down to the wood GI bring back AX 41 K98k Mauser. I traded a new in the box Colt 1911 Commander for it several years ago. I did add the front sight hood to it and the sling is a repro.
https://i.imgur.com/C8EGXde.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KFGe0el.jpg
I traded a Colt Officers ACP 1911 for this DCM Winchester M1 Carbine with paper work a few years ago. Couldn't pass it up either.
https://i.imgur.com/o4rUPP5.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RTfx1A4.jpg
C&R would be a dangerous path for me. Like add a safe dangerous! The Mosin and K98 above are seriously cool.
My first gun was a Yugo Mauser M48 in unissued condition. Garands are just f-ing awesome and patriotic as hell. M1917’s with good condition bores shoot as good or better than some guns made today. You haven’t lived unless you’ve shot a Mauser 98 long rifle in a soft caliber like 7x57 or 7.65, Remington 1903’s built before the A3 was designed are a special kind of incredible, and milsurp bayonets in general are just plain cool.
So yeah, the whole C&R thing is a good rabbit hole to explore.
Oh, and when the CMP runs out of Garands, which they absolutely will within the next decade, the prices will double overnight and triple in 5 years, so if you’re on the fence, now is the time.
Last I heard, the CMP was getting 60,000+ rifles from the Phillipines..supposedly some '03's and '03A3's in there as well, I got mine (2M1's and a '03, and a '03A3 when prices were reasonable)..$400 each for the '03, and'03A3 $500 for the M1's (both service grade) I don't think they're going to run out any time soon, 60,000 rifles is alot to get rid of.. especially if they keep jacking the prices up..
eightmillimeter
10-07-18, 13:14
Last I heard, the CMP was getting 60,000+ rifles from the Phillipines..supposedly some '03's and '03A3's in there as well, I got mine (2M1's and a '03, and a '03A3 when prices were reasonable)..$400 each for the '03, and'03A3 $500 for the M1's (both service grade) I don't think they're going to run out any time soon, 60,000 rifles is alot to get rid of.. especially if they keep jacking the prices up..
From my old volunteer days I have pictures on an old phone of 53’ Fedex trailers leaving daily full to the brim of rifles, 60k is maybe enough for 2-3 years of mail order tops.
From my old volunteer days I have pictures on an old phone of 53’ Fedex trailers leaving daily full to the brim of rifles, 60k is maybe enough for 2-3 years of mail order tops.
I don'nt know..I've been hearing this "the CMP is gonna run outta rifles" BS for years.. ever since I bought mine, about 20yrs ago...They haven't ran out yet..And with the price of a service grade over $700, they're not the bargains they once were.. At some point, everyone who wanted one will have bought one, the market gets saturated, and sales will slow down, increase the prices, and sales slow that much faster..
Something else that bothers me, Is the way they chose to sell 1911's, you send your name in, and if you're one of the lucky few who's name gets picked out of the hat, you'll get your choice of what grade you want.. this is laughable.You're still buying sight unseen, and if you opt for a service grade, you'll be shelling out a little over a $1000..Frankly, for that kind of money, I want to see it first..
Besides, you and I both know when they get shipments of 1911's in, the CMP is going to go thru them with a fine tooth comb, looking for WWI,WWII, Colts that are correct, any unissued, unfired, 1911's, as well as any Ithaca's, U.S.&S. Singers. Those will go right to the auction. So, what's that leave the buyer? The rebuilt mixmasters, and the Rem-Rands.. While alot of people will get decent pistols, I think there's going to be more that a few who will be dissapointed... If someone wants a 1911 I'd just take that that $1000 you'd spend, and go buy a new Colt 70 series..you'd have a real Colt, made from much better steel, that you would'nt be afraid to shoot, because it might lose it's value or the you might break an orginial part..
Everyone that I've talked to, expressed dissapointment when the CMP announced this lottery system, and the prices, If one just had to have a WWII 1911, you'd be better off going to a gun show, at least you could look at it, and may be able to swing a better deal, just saying.. Sales on the 1911's are going to be slow until they shit-can the lottery system, and ship pistols to the stores, and let people see what they'fe getting for the money..
When the CMP changed directors, things changed, and I'm not sure for the better..
I don'nt know..I've been hearing this "the CMP is gonna run outta rifles" BS for years.. ever since I bought mine, about 20yrs ago...They haven't ran out yet..And with the price of a service grade over $700, they're not the bargains they once were.. At some point, everyone who wanted one will have bought one, the market gets saturated, and sales will slow down, increase the prices, and sales slow that much faster..
Something else that bothers me, Is the way they chose to sell 1911's, you send your name in, and if you're one of the lucky few who's name gets picked out of the hat, you'll get your choice of what grade you want.. this is laughable.You're still buying sight unseen, and if you opt for a service grade, you'll be shelling out a little over a $1000..Frankly, for that kind of money, I want to see it first..
Besides, you and I both know when they get shipments of 1911's in, the CMP is going to go thru them with a fine tooth comb, looking for WWI,WWII, Colts that are correct, any unissued, unfired, 1911's, as well as any Ithaca's, U.S.&S. Singers. Those will go right to the auction. So, what's that leave the buyer? The rebuilt mixmasters, and the Rem-Rands.. While alot of people will get decent pistols, I think there's going to be more that a few who will be dissapointed... If someone wants a 1911 I'd just take that that $1000 you'd spend, and go buy a new Colt 70 series..you'd have a real Colt, made from much better steel, that you would'nt be afraid to shoot, because it might lose it's value or the you might break an orginial part..
Everyone that I've talked to, expressed dissapointment when the CMP announced this lottery system, and the prices, If one just had to have a WWII 1911, you'd be better off going to a gun show, at least you could look at it, and may be able to swing a better deal, just saying.. Sales on the 1911's are going to be slow until they shit-can the lottery system, and ship pistols to the stores, and let people see what they'fe getting for the money..
When the CMP changed directors, things changed, and I'm not sure for the better..
Totally disagree. When was the last show you saw a legit non-import USGI Garand for under 1200 bucks? I don't ever see legit non-import USGI 1911's for under 1500 bucks either, and most are pushing 2 grand and up. 750 bucks for a service grade Garand is still a damn good buy IMHO. Sure Johnson hasn't been ashamed to ramp up the pricing, but then again the CMP's job isn't to make it super cheap for the flippers to part out Garands or the correctors to correct Garands to make it cheaper and easier on them to make them worth more money either.
Just like everything else, the price of rice in China goes up. My first service grade (that I still own by the way) cost me 630 bucks shipped in 2010. Now we're approaching the end of 2018 and people are bitching about a service grade costing 750 bucks and a field grade costing 650 bucks. Give me a break.
As for the 1911 lottery, this isn't the first time a lottery has been done. IMHO that it's as fair as it can be for the limited number of 1911's available. I sent in an order, and if I don't get one on this go around all I can do is hope that I get one on the next release if there is one. Yes, I will be keeping my place in line. CMP provenance is not a bad thing, and I'll be they'll command a premium when they hit the open market. Sure they'll be USGI mixmasters, but being legit USGI rearsenals won't hurt their value one bit.
I still get cracked up with all the outrage of having to furnish an FFL to transfer a 1911 to. It's no different than buying a gun off this forum or on Gunbroker. Congress mandated they only be transferred to 01, 02 and 07 FFL's and people lost their mind and blamed the CMP. Sure I'd like to use my 03 C&R for one of them. The CMP didn't make the rules, Congress did. All of us that participate in the lottery have to follow them. No big deal. I guess some people like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I wouldn't mind getting a M1 Garand, M1 Carbine or a M14. My son's been looking at Mosin Nagant's and old German Mauser's.
NYH1.
sundance435
10-08-18, 13:03
Almost forgot:
Here's one you probably haven't seen before. This is a Polish wz.91/98/26 (Google that...) Mosin-Nagant built on a captured Russian Imperial receiver from 1895. These were short rifles chambered in 7.92X57mm (8mm Mauser) and were extensively worked over by the Poles. This one was built in Lwow, and is 100% matching. This fell into German hands at some point after September 1939 and they blued the bolt in their characteristic manner. It has been 'duffel cut,' indicating capture by a GI before it was sent home to the US. These are wicked rare, especially in all-matching condition, and the ones that show German use are even harder to find.
Pat
I've never seen or heard of these before - so thanks for that! How's it shoot?
The center piece of my collection is an all matching down to the wood GI bring back AX 41 K98k Mauser. I traded a new in the box Colt 1911 Commander for it several years ago. I did add the front sight hood to it and the sling is a repro.
I traded a Colt Officers ACP 1911 for this DCM Winchester M1 Carbine with paper work a few years ago. Couldn't pass it up either.
You made out like a bandit on both. Great finds!
sundance435
10-08-18, 13:07
I wouldn't mind getting a M1 Garand, M1 Carbine or a M14. My son's been looking at Mosin Nagant's and old German Mauser's.
NYH1.
He should do a lot of research on Mausers to make sure he doesn't get hosed. There are a lot more people that can spot the good and the bad on a Garand than Mausers and guys have been taking advantage of that. Even Russian captures have gone up hundreds over the last couple of years.
I wouldn't mind getting a M1 Garand, M1 Carbine or a M14. My son's been looking at Mosin Nagant's and old German Mauser's.
NYH1.
A Garand would be the top of my list. Such an iconic rifle.
He should do a lot of research on Mausers to make sure he doesn't get hosed. There are a lot more people that can spot the good and the bad on a Garand than Mausers and guys have been taking advantage of that. Even Russian captures have gone up hundreds over the last couple of years.
I highly recommend the K98k forum for Mausers. A great bunch of guys with some real experts on there who aren't afraid to help. I never realized how rampant faking was until I picked up my Mauser. I vetted it on the K98k forum myself when I was looking at trading for it.
http://www.k98kforum.com/forum.php
I passed on a couple of Russian Capture Mausers when I first started collecting for 300 bucks as I was limited in money and safe space. I haven't been doing this a super long time as I didn't have the discretionary money, but even I have seen significant change in the past ten years that I've been earnestly collecting. Even Mosin's have tripled in price since I got into collecting. :D
[QUOTE=sundance435;2665336]I've never seen or heard of these before - so thanks for that! How's it shoot?
I don't/won't shoot this one, they're too damn rare. This is an investment piece. I did well on it when I bought it and they've done nothing but rise in price. Even the extractor is serial numbered.
I have other Mosins to shoot, along with lots of rifles in 8mm Mauser, so I'm not missing out on that.
sundance435
10-08-18, 14:29
[QUOTE=sundance435;2665336]I've never seen or heard of these before - so thanks for that! How's it shoot?
I don't/won't shoot this one, they're too damn rare. This is an investment piece. I did well on it when I bought it and they've done nothing but rise in price. Even the extractor is serial numbered.
I have other Mosins to shoot, along with lots of rifles in 8mm Mauser, so I'm not missing out on that.
Can't blame you for that. At my (early) stage of collecting, I'm buying collectible shooters; later I'll get into the more obscure. Everything I've bought so far is a nice example of whatever it is, but nothing particularly rare about any of them. "Rarest" thus far for me are a 1950 (last year) Long Branch No. 1* Mk 4 and a very late mostly correct SA M1 (not rebuilt), which aren't really that rare at all.
Sounds like it would actually be a No.4 Mk.1*. They're outstanding battle rifles, and both of mine (Savage and Long Branch) are outstanding shooters.
Totally disagree. When was the last show you saw a legit non-import USGI Garand for under 1200 bucks? I don't ever see legit non-import USGI 1911's for under 1500 bucks either, and most are pushing 2 grand and up. 750 bucks for a service grade Garand is still a damn good buy IMHO. Sure Johnson hasn't been ashamed to ramp up the pricing, but then again the CMP's job isn't to make it super cheap for the flippers to part out Garands or the correctors to correct Garands to make it cheaper and easier on them to make them worth more money either.
Just like everything else, the price of rice in China goes up. My first service grade (that I still own by the way) cost me 630 bucks shipped in 2010. Now we're approaching the end of 2018 and people are bitching about a service grade costing 750 bucks and a field grade costing 650 bucks. Give me a break.
As for the 1911 lottery, this isn't the first time a lottery has been done. IMHO that it's as fair as it can be for the limited number of 1911's available. I sent in an order, and if I don't get one on this go around all I can do is hope that I get one on the next release if there is one. Yes, I will be keeping my place in line. CMP provenance is not a bad thing, and I'll be they'll command a premium when they hit the open market. Sure they'll be USGI mixmasters, but being legit USGI rearsenals won't hurt their value one bit.
I still get cracked up with all the outrage of having to furnish an FFL to transfer a 1911 to. It's no different than buying a gun off this forum or on Gunbroker. Congress mandated they only be transferred to 01, 02 and 07 FFL's and people lost their mind and blamed the CMP. Sure I'd like to use my 03 C&R for one of them. The CMP didn't make the rules, Congress did. All of us that participate in the lottery have to follow them. No big deal. I guess some people like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I don't know what shows you're going to but the last one I went to, there were several M1's(CMP rifles, still in CMP shipping box) going between $900-1000, granted, they were'nt exactly service grades,(they were, "experienced"rifles) but I did'nt see anybody banging the door down to buy them either, A friend of mine bought one at a estate auction, and when I looked at it, it was a match rifle, it was an older gun the park on the barrel and receiver matched, (had a heavier profile barrel)so that told me they had been together probably from the day it was built, stock had been bedded, by someone who knew what they were doing, the gas tube had been unitized, and it had 1/2" click sights, he gave $850 for it, no box, no papers,so it's history is pretty much unknown.. I guess nobody in the crowd knew what it really was, and passed on it.. and, as far as 1911's go, about a year or so ago,a friend of mine found a private deal on a Rem-Rand, that was as far as we could tell, was all correct..(he brought it home and we looked it over) and in nice shape, guy wanted $900..If I would've had a spare $900 I probably would've bought it, and flipped to the fools who would pay $1500..
My point is, deals are out there, you just have to shop around, and know what you're looking at, and be prepared to buy on the spot.One other thing, the gun shows are the last place you'll find a bargain. And while you may have seen these big prices on M1's and on 1911's at the gun shows, the real question is, did they sell them at that price, or did they pack them up at the end of the show, to try to find a sucker at the next show? If I had to guess, they packed them up.. I don't know how many shows I've been to, where you see the same guys trying to sell the exact same shit for the exact same outrageous price, and they wonder why nobody buys anything from them.Either they really don't want to sell,
Or, they're too stupid and stubborn to figure out they're overpriced.. Limited number of 1911's? Good lord man, the Army is sitting on 100,000 of them! The problem is the gov't is dribbling them out at 8000 a year.. The big fear amoung collectors was, and still is, if enough of these hit the market, prices would nose dive, and they could no longer charge premium prices..If you think they're a deal, go for it.. Me, I'll pass..I already have one 1911 I don't shoot, I don't need another.. As far as the CMP and it' policys go, we'll just have to disagree.. I've got a couple of M1's and a '03, and a '03A3. And I paid alot less than you did..I really don't need anything else from them. I'm not angry at the CMP, just dissapointed..I know they jacked the prices to screw the flippers, if they were worried about flipping, they never should have raised the yearly allotment where one could buy, up to 12 rifles a year, when they did that, they literally encouraged flipping..So, that's on them..Wanna put a crimp on flipping? Don't raise the prices, Cut the allotment to 2-3 rifles a year... That, by itself won't stop flipping, but it would put a serious crimp on it..
...I know they jacked the prices to screw the flippers, if they were worried about flipping, they never should have raised the yearly allotment where one could buy, up to 12 rifles a year, when they did that, they literally encouraged flipping..So, that's on them..Wanna put a crimp on flipping? Don't raise the prices, Cut the allotment to 2-3 rifles a year... That, by itself won't stop flipping, but it would put a serious crimp on it..
I don't disagree with you on that at all. I liked the one per year buying limit, and the wailing and knashing of teeth was pretty entertaining too.
You're right about not finding great deals most of the time at gun shows. Most of my good scores have come from the local trading journal, and local pawn shops. I've picked up a couple of good deals at shows, but they're few and far between. Virtually no one around here likes old rifles or pistols though. Several shops text and call me as soon as they get something in that they know I'm interested in. Today I picked up a 1941 VKT M91 Mosin Nagant. It's the first VKT I've ever seen out in the wild. Barrel, receiver and bolt match, but the floor plate has been scrubbed and the butt plate doesn't match. Still a nice score for $275.00 out the door though.
I've been avoiding buying long guns the past year or so because my safe it stuffed, but I just couldn't pass this one up. I'm going to buy another safe, but I just haven't found what I'm looking for yet locally.
https://i.imgur.com/iJM6O4d.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RfE8ldg.jpg
I picked up an all matching including magazine non import 1938 Tula TT-33 at a local shop for $350.00 out the door a few years back. Yes, that's hands down been my best score ever. I ended up selling it for $1,500.00 to pay for my AR-10. I had a couple of Romanian TT-C Tokarev's, and couldn't talk myself into keeping it. I still have a twinge of guilt for selling that one.
https://i.imgur.com/wlCLfXn.jpg
Can't blame you for that. At my (early) stage of collecting, I'm buying collectible shooters; later I'll get into the more obscure. Everything I've bought so far is a nice example of whatever it is, but nothing particularly rare about any of them. "Rarest" thus far for me are a 1950 (last year) Long Branch No. 1* Mk 4 and a very late mostly correct SA M1 (not rebuilt), which aren't really that rare at all.
My 1942 Savage, 1950 Long Branch, 1915 Lithgow are some of my favorite rifles. My Long Branch looks like it just came out of the arsenal. All three of these were pawn shop pick ups.
https://i.imgur.com/kGwQ5nb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bDeqgYh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iNnG7UV.jpg
Damn, no pawn shops around here have those kind of finds. Whats the details on the middle rifle? I’m not familiar with it at all.
sundance435
10-08-18, 20:55
Sounds like it would actually be a No.4 Mk.1*. They're outstanding battle rifles, and both of mine (Savage and Long Branch) are outstanding shooters.
Correct, flipped them by mistake.
My 1942 Savage, 1950 Long Branch, 1915 Lithgow are some of my favorite rifles. My Long Branch looks like it just came out of the arsenal. All three of these were pawn shop pick ups.
I have a '41 Lithgow that I love, too. Somewhere down the line, I'll be getting into WWI stuff.
As far as shops and shows, there are very few shops around here in the first place and it's feast or famine on C&R stuff. Every once in a while someone will bring in a handful of old guns, but that doesn't happen often. Never found any great deals at shows, but I go to the bigger ones looking for harder to find items, fully expecting to pay a little more for them. Sometimes you'll find a guy wandering around with something that's not a bad deal, but, again, not super common. I'm heading to Wanenmacher's - Tulsa in November to look for some of the harder to find French stuff I've been looking for. Also in the market for a 1917 rifle and a Lebel. Wouldn't pass on a decent 1911A1 or M1 carbine, either.
I don't disagree with you on that at all. I liked the one per year buying limit, and the wailing and knashing of teeth was pretty entertaining too.
You're right about not finding great deals most of the time at gun shows. Most of my good scores have come from the local trading journal, and local pawn shops. I've picked up a couple of good deals at shows, but they're few and far between. Virtually no one around here likes old rifles or pistols though. Several shops text and call me as soon as they get something in that they know I'm interested in. Today I picked up a 1941 VKT M91 Mosin Nagant. It's the first VKT I've ever seen out in the wild. Barrel, receiver and bolt match, but the floor plate has been scrubbed and the butt plate doesn't match. Still a nice score for $275.00 out the door though.
I've been avoiding buying long guns the past year or so because my safe it stuffed, but I just couldn't pass this one up. I'm going to buy another safe, but I just haven't found what I'm looking for yet locally.
https://i.imgur.com/iJM6O4d.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RfE8ldg.jpg
I picked up an all matching including magazine non import 1938 Tula TT-33 at a local shop for $350.00 out the door a few years back. Yes, that's hands down been my best score ever. I ended up selling it for $1,500.00 to pay for my AR-10. I had a couple of Romanian TT-C Tokarev's, and couldn't talk myself into keeping it. I still have a twinge of guilt for selling that one.
https://i.imgur.com/wlCLfXn.jpg
Sounds like you made the same mistake I did buying safes, especially if you have a C&R, I bought too small for the first safe, it's nice, at my first house, it fit perfectly in a closet in the spare bedroom. It got full quick, and I ended up buying a larger safe,not long after.. I still have both of them, and when we moved to a larger house, I found room for it in a larger closet..It too, got full not so much with rifles, but handguns..I recently solved that problem..A large dept store in town was going out of business, I noticed on this poster they had up they were selling all the office equiptment, including the store safe..It's perfect for handguns, 38"x25"x26" it weighs 620lbs.. made by Gardall Safe.Has a 2hr fire rating at 1800deg. I gave them $320 for it with the understanding I had to move it. A friend of my wife, her husband does local/long distance moving..he moved it for me for the friends/family price...$50.. Actually, it was a pretty easy move, took about 25minutes, from wheeling it out of the store to getting it in the house.. Understand about selling the 1938 Tula..but, it's just like a late, good friend of mine who ran a gunshop for years, told me once, "you can't keep'em all" I really despise seeing those Tok's with a bastardised saftey put on them, they're ruined, in my book..
Sounds like you made the same mistake I did buying safes, especially if you have a C&R, I bought too small for the first safe, it's nice, at my first house, it fit perfectly in a closet in the spare bedroom. It got full quick, and I ended up buying a larger safe,not long after.. I still have both of them, and when we moved to a larger house, I found room for it in a larger closet..It too, got full not so much with rifles, but handguns..I recently solved that problem..A large dept store in town was going out of business, I noticed on this poster they had up they were selling all the office equiptment, including the store safe..It's perfect for handguns, 38"x25"x26" it weighs 620lbs.. made by Gardall Safe.Has a 2hr fire rating at 1800deg. I gave them $320 for it with the understanding I had to move it. A friend of my wife, her husband does local/long distance moving..he moved it for me for the friends/family price...$50.. Actually, it was a pretty easy move, took about 25minutes, from wheeling it out of the store to getting it in the house.. Understand about selling the 1938 Tula..but, it's just like a late, good friend of mine who ran a gunshop for years, told me once, "you can't keep'em all" I really despise seeing those Tok's with a bastardised saftey put on them, they're ruined, in my book..
That's the damndest thing of it. I bought a Liberty Fatboy Jr 48 gun safe as my first safe thinking "there's no way in hell I'll ever fill it up". Boy was I wrong. It's time for another, and I'll be going for a little bigger one this time. I want at least 12 gauge steel if not heavier (the Fatboy Jr is 11 gauge), and an S&G mechanical lock (which the Fatboy Jr has). Everything around here is 14 gauge and an electric lock. I have a finished basement, so I have plenty of room for another safe.
Damn, no pawn shops around here have those kind of finds. Whats the details on the middle rifle? I’m not familiar with it at all.
Are you asking about the 1950 No 4 Mk 1* Long Branch Enfield? If so it's just a run of the mill 303 British Enfield made in Canada.
I got really lucky with the K98s and Moisins that flooded in from Russia about 10 years ago.
Growing up as a kid you almost never saw a K98 and if you did, as often as not, it was duffel bag cut. I had a 1946 date Spanish Mauser in 8mm and that is as close as I was able to get as pre68 imports cost more than Garands. So when the day came that Russian captured Mausers were only $150 eventually bought more than a dozen. Made nice Christmas gifts for friends and family and still had several examples for my own collection.
91/30s? Before the wall came down you only dreamed of owning something that rare and almost never saw one, then suddenly they were $75. I think I bought two crates and the rifles ended up being about $50 each.
But few things compare to the dirt cheap Lugers that were selling for $350 for a very brief time. Of course I had just sunk most of my cash into dirt cheap HK P7s so I didn't feel too bad.
I so wish I had spent the money that I spent on booze and trollops while I was in college on milsurps. I remember the local Rose's department stores had them in big wooden barrels for cheap. I had a little money saved up back then, and could have started a decent collection at the time. Hindsight's 20/20 though.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-08-18, 22:49
My 1942 Savage, 1950 Long Branch, 1915 Lithgow are some of my favorite rifles. My Long Branch looks like it just came out of the arsenal. All three of these were pawn shop pick ups.
https://i.imgur.com/kGwQ5nb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bDeqgYh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iNnG7UV.jpg
Sweet Enfields man. I’d love an unmolested one in near factory condition.
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Nothing more than my own opinion, but I think the No.4 Mk.1 was the finest and most capable bolt action rifle ever built. The fact that it was in the process of being eclipsed by magazine fed, select fire weapons in true medium distance calibers takes nothing away from it.
That 91/98/25 is awesome!!!! Id probably shoot it ....but definitely not much.
Thankfully there are always others to shoot, that allows me to justify owning guns Ive not shot or shoot very little. My current phone is taking awful pictures, so here are some of my C&R shooting squad taken over the years.
M1 H&R 2/53, depot rebuild, looks good, plays the part, hits what its aimed at.
No4Mk1/3 with PH5c target sights. 1944 Long Branch rebuilt and updated in 1951. I usually get 1.5-2" with match loads, best 1.25". Good surplus 2.5-3.5"
1916 Mauser Oberndorf Gew.98, mismatched with depot repair marks. Gets the "spirit award" for accuracy but hey, who really cares, the old Codger still out there!
MAS 49/56 with APX L806 scope. The Scope is cool and all but I prefer the rifle without it.
Swiss 1869/71 Vetterli 10.4mm with centerfire conversion. Its work but its fun! 12 shot bolt action made in 1870s!!! My fledgling handloads are so far getting 3-4 inch groups
As long as its military and takes a cartridge Im in, nothing is too strange for me. 5408754088540895409054091
Not sure what I can do to straighten the pics back up, I had em all good.... I swear!
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Everything milsurp is going up and up. $300 RC 98s 8 years ago or so. Today over $650. Mosins have practically quadrupled. Back around 2012 I bought an all matching MAS 49/56 in 7.5 French with all the accessories for $450. A year or two later stupidly traded it for a Ruger M77 3006 bolt action rifle. Today those MAS go for around a grand. Sold my collection of Mausers and Mosins several years as well. Now all I have is an SMLE, Enfield #5, a Martini Enfield and a Fin M39
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Because you guys are C&R whores like me...
This is a French Mle.1916 Berthier long rifle that was acquired by the newly independent nation of Poland in the 1920s during what was a huge inventory reduction of the world's arms following WWI. French arms comprised a very significant number of the small arms in use until greater distribution of the Mauser FOW in the 1930s. I have a Polish Army inventory of small arms by type from 1938, and French arms figure very prominently. This one was assigned a new serial number by the Poles (see the left side of the barrel), the numbers on the left side of the butt stock and the bolt handle were obliterated, and the Polish property mark (Eagle) was stamped on the top of the barrel and receiver. The Poles also stamped the 'Z' in a trapezoid. In all likelihood, all of these fell into either Soviet or German hands during the partition of the country in October, 1939. This one is not import marked, suggesting a bring-back rifle by a GI, or simply imported pre-GCA before 1968 from continental Europe, left behind by German troops.
*EDIT*
The other pics won't load, damn it...
Pat
Beautiful Berthier Pat! I have a similar postwar rebuilt Mle 16 but mine I believe went to Greece. The Polish guns quietly command quite a bit of respect in the C&R universe, I've always found that interesting.
The bulk of my collection focuses on Japanese Rifles, of which I embarassingly have no pictures of on this phone, so Ill have to wait a few hours before continuing this C&R dance off!
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C&R dance off!
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Too funny
Well.... since it's a dance off. Crappy pics but pics none the less.
1917 Enfieldhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181011/d49ba449ff100f672188af7c5bfb0b21.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181011/9f68581ce5c1ebd237d6157124a4ef18.jpg
Fin M39
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181011/4dd92e7eb122ce99bfaff9218b47a173.jpg
1899 Enfield Martini in 303https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181011/5bb797a25ad8d0889d49b80e1e210327.jpg
Nice Rifles! Id like to own a Finnish Rifle again, I may get an M27. The M39s have doubled in price while M27s are nearly the same price they were 10 years ago.
SMLEs are one of my favorite rifles, and your is definitely a beauty. Sadly mine is currently sidelined with some stock issues.
Very cool Martini, looks much cleaner than most I see, do you shoot it?
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Nice Rifles! Id like to own a Finnish Rifle again, I may get an M27. The M39s have doubled in price while M27s are nearly the same price they were 10 years ago.
SMLEs are one of my favorite rifles, and your is definitely a beauty. Sadly mine is currently sidelined with some stock issues.
Very cool Martini, looks much cleaner than most I see, do you shoot it?
Sent from my SM-J727T using TapatalkThe Martini is practically mint. I was surprised considering it's almost 120 years old. I do shoot it, just not often. But every time I drag out the milsurps I make sure to grab it too. A box or two of PPU
The SMLE has some minor dings but the bore is pristine. The M39 is basically a new rifle. I've seen a few on GB hit $1500 [emoji33]
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The M39 is basically a new rifle. I've seen a few on GB hit $1500 [emoji33]
Totally digging the M39. One of these days I'll own one if I ever stumble across one. I have a soft spot for Finn Mosins. I guess I'll go ahead and post mine up.
1928 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/wokkxxc.jpg
1930 Tikka M27
https://i.imgur.com/vR6MuFi.jpg
1931 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/9l34MVy.jpg
1932 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/CsOnDe7.jpg
1944 Tikka M91/30
https://i.imgur.com/PD745N9.jpg
1941 VKT M91
https://i.imgur.com/iJM6O4d.jpg
1915 New England Westinghouse M91
https://i.imgur.com/iHRJSl3.jpg
Totally digging the M39. One of these days I'll own one if I ever stumble across one. I have a soft spot for Finn Mosins. I guess I'll go ahead and post mine up.
1928 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/wokkxxc.jpg
1930 Tikka M27
https://i.imgur.com/vR6MuFi.jpg
1931 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/9l34MVy.jpg
1932 Tikka M27 Ski Trooper
https://i.imgur.com/CsOnDe7.jpg
1944 Tikka M91/30
https://i.imgur.com/PD745N9.jpg
1941 VKT M91
https://i.imgur.com/iJM6O4d.jpg
1915 New England Westinghouse M91
https://i.imgur.com/iHRJSl3.jpgNow I'm feeling guilty for selling all my Mosins. They were mostly Fin and Balkan M91s with one Systroyarsk, a few in Austrian capture stocks with 8x50 conversations (whatever rifle the stock originally came from). And one 1895 Ka3 modified into a m38 by the Czechs
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sundance435
10-11-18, 15:20
Nothing more than my own opinion, but I think the No.4 Mk.1 was the finest and most capable bolt action rifle ever built. The fact that it was in the process of being eclipsed by magazine fed, select fire weapons in true medium distance calibers takes nothing away from it.
Hard to argue with that. I will say it's not the best-balancing rifle I own, but it's good. Overall, it's a great blend of features.
MAS 49/56 with APX L806 scope. The Scope is cool and all but I prefer the rifle without it.
Is your MAS in the original 7.5? A 49 or 49/56 is on my list.
Because you guys are C&R whores like me...
This is a French Mle.1916 Berthier long rifle that was acquired by the newly independent nation of Poland in the 1920s during what was a huge inventory reduction of the world's arms following WWI. French arms comprised a very significant number of the small arms in use until greater distribution of the Mauser FOW in the 1930s. I have a Polish Army inventory of small arms by type from 1938, and French arms figure very prominently. This one was assigned a new serial number by the Poles (see the left side of the barrel), the numbers on the left side of the butt stock and the bolt handle were obliterated, and the Polish property mark (Eagle) was stamped on the top of the barrel and receiver. The Poles also stamped the 'Z' in a trapezoid. In all likelihood, all of these fell into either Soviet or German hands during the partition of the country in October, 1939. This one is not import marked, suggesting a bring-back rifle by a GI, or simply imported pre-GCA before 1968 from continental Europe, left behind by German troops.
Pat
I just finished a newer book about "Fall Rot" (Case Red), the second phase of the invasion of France. It provided some info I hadn't known about all of the arms sales France made to Poland in the interwar period. It seems the French were assuming that just having treaties with Czechoslovakia and Poland would be enough to deter Hitler and the Poles were relying on France to actually open a second front. Who knows what would've happened if the French had actually tested the defenses in the Rhineland, as thinly garrisoned as they were. That seems to be the only misgiving Hitler had about invading Poland.
Incidentally, I have a really nice Berthier M-16 carbine, early '30s date. It is the handiest little bolt action centerfire I've owned. Haven't had the weather to shoot it, yet. Still looking for the elusive, decent Lebel (not an R35). As it is, I'm always 1-3 years behind on whatever the next craze will be to drive up particular C&R stuff, though I think it's probably going to be Japanese stuff next, since there's comparatively very little of it in good condition. I can't believe how expensive any USGI M1 carbine has become in the last 5 years, considering how many of them are out there; it's hard to find a decent shooter for less than $950.
As someone said, what I wouldn't give to be able to spend some of the booze and trollop money differently 10-15 years ago. c'est la vie
Lol, that wasnt an issue for me, my typical selection of trollops usually left me burned out and tired of their crap so most of my time and money went into C&Rs. I occasionally wish i had things back Id sold to get big ticket items, many themselves are now big ticket items. Overall im fortunate to own what I own and have had what I once had and Im sure more coolness is yet to be found.
Yes my MAS 49/56 is in the original 7.5. I wish I had another as a back up, this rifle is soo much fun to shoot! All the french semi autos are! The original french 1960s-70s surplus is best, the syrian stuff is typically duds as is anything dating from the 40s and 50s. Unfortunately the French stuff is highly corrosive. I know folks scoff at "highly" corrosive being like "sorta" pregnant.... but let me assure you, this crap is in a league of its own. The rifle loves it though so I buy it when I find it and clean accordingly.
Beautiful collection of Finns! My first rifle is an 1898 Izhvesk dragoon that the Finns got a hold of, I think through serbia. My great grandfather accumulated it somewhere, probably playing cards.5410054101
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My latest score is this ground but matching early Tokyo Artillery Arsenal type 38 carbine in really nice condition. These early type 38s can be sleepers because most folks dont understand how they are numbered. On these the receiver serial number is only accountability/inventory control.
The guns are built and matched by a separate assembly number, usually 1-3 digits preceded by a japanese hirangana character, in this case 786 with the character (Nu?). The number is stamped underneath the receiver but is easily found by pulling out on the bolt stop, its stamped on top. These are seldom ever removed or changed so are pretty reliable. These numbers should then be found on the bayonet stud, magazine floor plate, rear sight slider, bolt parts, stock and hanguard and other internal parts.
Later rifles and carbines match by both assembly and serial numbers while war time guns, including 95% of type 99s are matched by the serial number.5410254103541045410554106
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Nearly all japanese rifles will show 2 sometimes 3 inspection marks on the bottom of the butt, below the trigger guard. My reference book on type 38 is on extended loan but I think the serial places this as a 20s era production piece. This same arsenal logo would be later used by the Kokura Army Arsenal from the mid 30s through the end of WWII. The front sight ears are a bit more sculpted on Tokyo carbines vs the later wartime guns. 54114541155411654117
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Where do you find ammo to shoot those Japanese rifles?
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Where do you find ammo to shoot those Japanese rifles?
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You can buy it here.
https://www.midwayusa.com/77x58mm-japanese-arisaka/br?cid=10465
https://www.midwayusa.com/65x50mm-japanese-arisaka/br?cid=10463
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/category/categoryId/239
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/164?
You sign up for notifications here.
https://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammo-sale/65x50-jap-ammo
https://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammo-sale/77-jap-ammo
Jap rifles are expensive to shoot. I have a all matching Type 99 Short with a scrubbed mum that I've put 20 rounds through. I have another 20 for a rainy day. It was actually a pleasant gun to shoot.
I used to own a Type 44 Calvary Arisaka that I never shot. I didn't want another odd expensive caliber that I couldn't shoot. It also had a crack in the wrist all the way through and I didn't want to wait for who knows how long for an expensive stock to show up. I bought it on the cheap, flipped it, and bought a Norinco M1911A1.
I won't buy any Caracano's because I want to shoot all of my firearms. I just don't want to own anything I can't take to the range.
Where do you find ammo to shoot those Japanese rifles?
Sent from my XT1650 using TapatalkI load it. Thats probably the big draw back to these, is no affordable ammo. The choices are norma, hornady/grafs, and PCI. PCI has a flimsy rep, hornady is expensive but accurate in both 6.5 and 7.7. Norma is outrageously expensive with awesome brass but doesnt shoot as well as hornady.
Its rediculous that Prvi hasnt offered it, they make the brass for both calibers already as well as .264 and .311 projectiles in appropriate weights. The estimates of Arisakas in circulation run about 2.5 million, so numbers are there and prvi loads every just about every other odd military cartridge.
Meh... it keeps prices low, i shouldnt bitch lol
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I won't buy any Caracano's because I want to shoot all of my firearms. I just don't want to own anything I can't take to the range.
Whoa...., why no love for the carcano? It can be shot Prvi loads 6.5 with 123gr and 140gr. I hear the 123gr is more accurate. Ive not seen either sell for more than 18/box, so its not bad for the occasional outting. Prvi has better rim dimensions than norma cases and they actually work well with the clips
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Whoa...., why no love for the carcano? It can be shot Prvi loads 6.5 with 123gr and 140gr. I hear the 123gr is more accurate. Ive not seen either sell for more than 18/box, so its not bad for the occasional outting. Prvi has better rim dimensions than norma cases and they actually work well with the clips
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Is anyone making new manufacture ammo for the Carcano?
I don't reload, and have no desire to either. In my mind I don't shoot enough volume to justify reloading, and quite frankly I've seen enough "kaboom's" to make me wary of making a mistake. I don't have enough time to shoot a lot of volume either, so new and surplus ammo fills my needs nicely.
Is anyone making new manufacture ammo for the Caracano?
I don't reload, and have no desire to either. In my mind I don't shoot enough volume to justify reloading, and quite frankly I've seen enough "kaboom's" to make me wary of making a mistake. I don't have enough time to shoot a lot of volume either, so new and surplus ammo fills my needs nicely.Prvi partizan currently loads 6.5x52 carcano. Its good ammo.
For 7.35; Norma, PCI and Ive had good luck shooting the italian 1939 surplus that is still findable at gunshows. Occasionally there is a dud, maybe 1 per box of 18. The clips can be expensive so the surplus tends to be pricey. But I sometimes find boxes of the ammo missing the clips for $5-10.
The clips are required to shoot carcano rifles. Single round loading stresses and eventually breaks the extractor. Clips are $3-10 ea. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/02c714990c64880a412434d1724aa180.jpg
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https://i.imgur.com/L8ACaba.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RE8D3tk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jgF1caZ.jpg
sundance435
10-12-18, 09:26
Where do you find ammo to shoot those Japanese rifles?
7.7 isn't super difficult to find (it is expensive, though). Loaded 6.5 Jap is pretty hard to find.
I load it. Thats probably the big draw back to these, is no affordable ammo. The choices are norma, hornady/grafs, and PCI. PCI has a flimsy rep, hornady is expensive but accurate in both 6.5 and 7.7. Norma is outrageously expensive with awesome brass but doesnt shoot as well as hornady.
Its rediculous that Prvi hasnt offered it, they make the brass for both calibers already as well as .264 and .311 projectiles in appropriate weights. The estimates of Arisakas in circulation run about 2.5 million, so numbers are there and prvi loads every just about every other odd military cartridge.
Meh... it keeps prices low, i shouldnt bitch lol
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I'm surprised Prvi doesn't load it, too, considering the even more oddball calibers that they do. That's the single biggest reason I haven't picked up a nice 38 and 99 - I don't reload. I have been picking up boxes of 7.7 when I see them, mostly Norma, which is usually $30-40 a box anymore. I appreciate your knowledge of Jap guns - that's something I haven't tried to delve into yet. I just want a nice representative 38 and Type 99 and a last ditch 99...in addition to the 10 other things on my list.
Whoa...., why no love for the carcano? It can be shot Prvi loads 6.5 with 123gr and 140gr. I hear the 123gr is more accurate. Ive not seen either sell for more than 18/box, so its not bad for the occasional outting. Prvi has better rim dimensions than norma cases and they actually work well with the clips
Carcanos get shit on a lot by people who don't have experience with them. They're actually pretty good guns - not better than anything else at the time, but not bad. 6.5 Carcano is a pretty crappy round, though. As you said, people seem to have better luck with the 123gr Prvi over the 139, due largely to the varying diameters of Italian barrels; like all things Italian, there's not a lot of consistency there. Most of the barrels I've seen on WWI M91s are in pretty shitty condition, to boot.
https://i.imgur.com/L8ACaba.jpg
Beautiful Arisakas! What are the details on the reddish stocked one? I don't know anything about Jap markings.
Prvi partizan currently loads 6.5x52 carcano. Its good ammo.
For 7.35; Norma, PCI and Ive had good luck shooting the italian 1939 surplus that is still findable at gunshows. Occasionally there is a dud, maybe 1 per box of 18. The clips can be expensive so the surplus tends to be pricey. But I sometimes find boxes of the ammo missing the clips for $5-10.
The clips are required to shoot carcano rifles. Single round loading stresses and eventually breaks the extractor. Clips are $3-10 ea. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181012/02c714990c64880a412434d1724aa180.jpg
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Thanks! I didn't know Prvi was doing the 6.5 Carcano. I've passed on a couple of Finn marked ones because I had it in my head that I could not get ammo for them. Looks like I'll have to add one of those to my pick up list.
Thanks! I didn't know Prvi was doing the 6.5 Carcano. I've passed on a couple of Finn marked ones because I had it in my head that I could not get ammo for them. Looks like I'll have to add one of those to my pick up list.Sadly that wont work out because all the finnish carcanos are 7.35 short rifles. Hornady/graf may load 7.35, they make both the brass and projectiles, but I havent seen any.
Id grab an example if you think you may want one, they are pretty reasonable and quite plentiful now but forget it if a steady supply of ammo turns up
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https://i.imgur.com/L8ACaba.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RE8D3tk.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jgF1caZ.jpgGreat looking 99s Styer, thanks for sharing!
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Beautiful Arisakas! What are the details on the reddish stocked one? I don't know anything about Jap markings.
Could be anything. It's a later in the war example, so no wings on the ladder sights, bolts lugs are a bit more crude and things like that. The bright red could be just what wood was being used that was available.
The important part is the chrysanthemum engravings are intact. All surrendered rifles handed over at the end of fighting either had it milled off or sufficiently defaced (you often see them with large Xs filed over them) so as to not surrender a weapon with the seal of the Emperor on it.
Here's two examples of surrendered rifles (not mine).
https://i.imgur.com/z96i0g1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fWONNC0.jpg
Collectors refer to this as "with mum" or "no mum" examples. Those with intact chrysanthemums are usually considered "taken in combat" vs. a "surrendered rifle."
The red coloration on the stock of Styer's type 99 isnt unusual on japanese stocks. The Japanese used a laquer type finish called Urushi. Its coloration and application varied by manufacturer/supplier and time period. The reddish color is typically associated Toyo Kogyo type 99s, made near Hiroshima. The font of the "9 9 type" characters on Styers receiver look like typical Toyo Kogyo markings. The lighter gun looks like a Nagoya.
And since it was brought up earlier, Ill share my Finnish marked Carcano M38 short rifle. These were to be the new standard Italian Army rifles in the snazy new 7.35mm cartridge. Quickly figuring a caliber change wasnt a good idea since they could barely manage any other logistics problems, the Italians gave 95000 of these brandy new rifles and ammo as aid to Finland. Not especially popular they provided arms to the rear echelon and notably AAA gun crews. Finnish army property mark is the [SA].
The barrels on many of these are recycled 1891 rifle 6.5mm barrels, cut down, recountoured, bored out and new rifling cut. Chambers still the same though, those cheap crafty Italians! You can see some of the old barrel marks "TERNI" underneath the serial number. The old barrel date of 06 or 08 Is faintly visible elsewhere.
The new markings of Crown/RE/TERNI along with the date "1939" with the fascist year "XVII" (counting from 1922) Terni is one of the largest government arsenals.
54123https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/e91d269d0531a17bc7644b77c1ee7dc8.jpg54124https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/ed6c3a0aed30002e09a7a6fc652992a8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/95155cd5397d1a1ec7033e6347621a0c.jpg
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Here is the silly folding bayonet. Mine isnt [SA] marked but if you find one that is, its valuable. The Finns trashed most of their bayonets, of all types.
Typical box of surplus 7.35mm ammo dated 1939 and probably part of that which was given to Finland. Also showing the Finn property marks on the original italian made sling, a Cool find I stumbled upon recently.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/20bd1cb6c4d582b45645c87dc28c0cb3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/5f49d1f0ef78e6f936a9394cc22f992e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/a56ccd928d6c507aca91182e04ebfc2b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/02fdf2f122cc6596af09eeffaf4ca641.jpg
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Sadly that wont work out because all the finnish carcanos are 7.35 short rifles. Hornady/graf may load 7.35, they make both the brass and projectiles, but I havent seen any.
Id grab an example if you think you may want one, they are pretty reasonable and quite plentiful now but forget it if a steady supply of ammo turns up
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Thanks for the info. I thought the Finn Carcanos were in 6.5. I've never paid Carcanos more than a fleeting glance. Looks like I need to research and learn more about them.
Here are some of mine. You might have to click on the images to make it larger.
54151
54152
54153
Lebels? Did someone say, ‘Lebels?’
Top: Mle. 1886 M.93 built in 1893
Middle: A 1940 built example of the highly elusive M.27
Bottom: A German-captured Mle. 1886 M.93 R35 carbine, processed and stamped at the Krakau (Cracow) depot in occupied Poland.
Pat
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/98aa8421a7d8485b2d27a20b4a09edb9.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/02ee4c174fd8c535896debfcea3a6374.jpg
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sundance435
10-14-18, 18:05
Thanks for the info. I thought the Finn Carcanos were in 6.5. I've never paid Carcanos more than a fleeting glance. Looks like I need to research and learn more about them.
All were 7.35, AFAIK. The Finns were taking anything they could get. From what I’ve read, the Italians basically gave up on the 7.35 due to logistics and began reissuing M91s in different configurations (carbines) to go with the 38s and M41s.
Lebels? Did someone say, ‘Lebels?’
Top: Mle. 1886 M.93 built in 1893
Middle: A 1940 built example of the highly elusive M.27
Bottom: A German-captured Mle. 1886 M.93 R35 carbine, processed and stamped at the Krakau (Cracow) depot in occupied Poland.
Pat
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Very, very jealous. 3 great looking examples.
Here’s a 1890 built example of a Danish Model 1889/24 Krag. This one received a new barrel in 1940, just in time for the German invasion. It was captured by them and processed through the German Army depot at Mainz, and subsequently marked by them.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181015/00a172c59f2ce9e11450b3a7b483b34f.jpg
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Beautiful rifles Steve! Certainly wish I had held on to or at least spent more range time with my old SVT.... but I so badly needed to afford a G.43(that I no longer have either) it was still only worth about $300 at the time.
Nice Type 99, looks like a Nagoya 7th series from here.
Dig the Carcano M41 too, they are my favorite Italian rifle. I am still searching for just the right one. My current one isnt bad but still needs range time to see if we're going to get along.
Pat, Awesome selection of Lebels,definitely feeling some envy there. Besides a couple of R35s Ive not been able to get with in grabbing distance of a respectable lebel that I can add to the collection. The Krag is sweet too, do you collect beutewaffe?
My offering this time is a Karabiner 88, I picked up not to long ago. I just got finished cleaning it up and getting it a bit more presentable. Its survived rust, dust, mold, Bubba, service as the 75th weapon, 2nd squadron of the Bavarian 4th light cavalry regiment, likely an entire world war and now its chilling on the couch, with me ....watching awful TV lol.
Its all matching however Bubba did get a hold of it, sanded the stock and engineered a new front sight. The sight can be undone, the stock is toast.... but still its the original numbered stock, not too ugly but also can be shot and handled guilt free! (provided proper precautions are taken as should be when dealing with 1888 commision rifles/carbines or any other antique weapons, read up!) Still searching for clips, that I was too lazy or cheap to snag ages ago.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/b5f1f50bb289e62bb250d6e2fde2d819.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/c3e1f403c985a921b8a215fa09035c0b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/b17203783d173b6341b8a950b7eec089.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/4107e6d302f21ea4d8a60476871fe53b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181016/d6da17731b966a5c9252a6f23a5185fb.jpg
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Keep going, I'm learning a lot - you guys have some really nice rifles!
Pat, Awesome selection of Lebels,definitely feeling some envy there. Besides a couple of R35s Ive not been able to get with in grabbing distance of a respectable lebel that I can add to the collection. The Krag is sweet too, do you collect beutewaffe?
Nice Karabiner 88!
Yes, Beutewaffen are my primary focus for C&Rs. I delve a bit into pre-war Yugoslavian and Hungarian, but the German-captures dominate the collection.
Nice Karabiner 88!
Yes, Beutewaffen are my primary focus for C&Rs. I delve a bit into pre-war Yugoslavian and Hungarian, but the German-captures dominate the collection.
That's an interesting theme for a collection.
Question for C&R guys...I'm a basic 01 & do online consignments & what not as a side biz. I certainly do not mind shipping a compliant gun to a C&R but don't keep up with it & understand it's constantly changing.
If I get a question from a C&R asking if I will accept their FFL, I have asked for some sort of verification that the gun is compliant. Most are happy to do so but others say any gun over 50yrs or so is automatically added. I won't ship to those that won't get me something official. Can you explain if there is an official list or what ATF's firm rule is on the matter regarding a guns age vs C&R compliance??
It's really not a big issue for me as it rarely comes up & I'm not going to do anything to affect my FFL by blindly shipping, mostly curious.
Question for C&R guys...I'm a basic 01 & do online consignments & what not as a side biz. I certainly do not mind shipping a compliant gun to a C&R but don't keep up with it & understand it's constantly changing.
If I get a question from a C&R asking if I will accept their FFL, I have asked for some sort of verification that the gun is compliant. Most are happy to do so but others say any gun over 50yrs or so is automatically added. I won't ship to those that won't get me something official. Can you explain if there is an official list or what ATF's firm rule is on the matter regarding a guns age vs C&R compliance??
It's really not a big issue for me as it rarely comes up & I'm not going to do anything to affect my FFL by blindly shipping, mostly curious.
I myself with an 03 go by the ATF list of approved C&R guns. If it's not on the list then I have it shipped to my 01 or 02 FFL. Better safe than sorry.
Question for C&R guys...I'm a basic 01 & do online consignments & what not as a side biz. I certainly do not mind shipping a compliant gun to a C&R but don't keep up with it & understand it's constantly changing.
If I get a question from a C&R asking if I will accept their FFL, I have asked for some sort of verification that the gun is compliant. Most are happy to do so but others say any gun over 50yrs or so is automatically added. I won't ship to those that won't get me something official. Can you explain if there is an official list or what ATF's firm rule is on the matter regarding a guns age vs C&R compliance??
It's really not a big issue for me as it rarely comes up & I'm not going to do anything to affect my FFL by blindly shipping, mostly curious.
Not sure 50 years automatically does anything. I don't think AR-10s and AR-15s recently became C&Rs. I agree with Razor, if it's not on the C&R list I'm not sending it.
The most useful category on that list specifies "All original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946."
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/curios-and-relics-list-2018/download
Thanks, same to all of you guys with the rifles. I don't dislike the Carcanos, but I rank them lowest of all my WWII rifles. The two that I own and have shot don't shoot that well and have pretty bad sticky bolt even after a good cleaning. One other thing, I still have to make sense of it, but there is a thread over on surplusrifleforum where someone states the Prvi ammo uses the wrong diameter bullets, causing poor accuracy, or worse, catastrophic failures.
Those guys aren't very lively over there so posts are limited. I still couldn't get a straight answer on what factory ammo 6.5 is "correct" and best to shoot out of them (not many options). For the record, I shot both the Prvi and Graf's and they functioned fine, Privi if I recall wasn't very accurate.
Nice Berthiers. I have been searching for one, but it isn't high in priorities right now. I have a MAS 36 as my only French WWII offering.
Also, that Tokarev I have in the last picture is actually a Vietnam bringback non import marked "M20", which were Chinese manufactured, and given that nomenclature to hide their source of military support.
I like Carcano's. Carcano's are neat guns but they are not great guns by any stretch. Some are better than others but their inconsistency highlights the limitations of Italys industrial abilities during this time. Japanese rifles are a bit better IMO but not by much. Mausers, Enfields, Springfields truly earn their spots at the top of the heap performance wise
Shooting 6.5 carcano isnt straightforward, im still wrestling with loading it myself. It seems bullet selection is the key to getting some satisfaction in the accuracy department, unfortunayely this makes handloading necessary. Otherwise your stuck with the 3-4 bullets selected by the few companies loading 6.5 carcano, None of which are great.
Hornady had a bit of a faux pas with their .268 bullet. Worked great for some, blew some other rifles up. Its been ages since I first read about the reasonings for .268 but I still always came back to "What was wrong with the .266 diameter of the original italian bullet?" Theyve since supposedly stepped it back down to .267 but I have yet to handle any. Fortunately I have a small quantity of original pulled italian bullets and some hornady 160gr .264 long round nose bullets that can do very well in some guns.
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Interesting article in this month's American Rifleman:
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/19/fn-mausers-and-the-fight-for-israel/
Re: Carcanos,
They don't enjoy the most appeal among a lot of collectors, but there's a ton of variants and they're cheaper than almost any other WWI-WWII FOWs. One of my friends (and next town over neighbors) wrote the first book in English on Carcanos well before the internet, and probably has the single largest collection of them in North America. He's a wealth of info on them, and his collection is staggering.
Carcanos are actually fairly elegant things, and they're not hard to find. They comprise an important part of my German-capture collection.
I was certain Italian stuff woud take off faster than French stuff.... and Japanese before them both. I was wrong lol
Regardless all of them are supremely interesting once you delve into how and why they were made the way they were
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I enjoy them as well and believe they should be part of a C&R/WWII collection. I just don't enjoy shooting them as much as anything else, even the Mosins. Here's some more:
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Sorry I am having a hard time selecting a URL that will post a decent sized image on the forum without having to click on it.
sundance435
10-22-18, 20:22
Question for C&R guys...I'm a basic 01 & do online consignments & what not as a side biz. I certainly do not mind shipping a compliant gun to a C&R but don't keep up with it & understand it's constantly changing.
If I get a question from a C&R asking if I will accept their FFL, I have asked for some sort of verification that the gun is compliant. Most are happy to do so but others say any gun over 50yrs or so is automatically added. I won't ship to those that won't get me something official. Can you explain if there is an official list or what ATF's firm rule is on the matter regarding a guns age vs C&R compliance??
It's really not a big issue for me as it rarely comes up & I'm not going to do anything to affect my FFL by blindly shipping, mostly curious.
Basically any military firearm older than 50 years is C&R eligible. The ATF’s C&R list is by no means exhaustive and they acknowledge that. The 50 year thing isn’t even hard & fast as my CZ82s are considered C&R and they’re not close to 50 years old - same for many Bulgarian Makarovs, though not all.
That being said, I’ve never thought of using my C&R for, say, a 60 year old Smith revolver, though I don’t know of any reason I couldn’t. Mainly it’s because the stuff I collect is well established as C&R on “the list”.
My small political ask for us C&R guys would be to move the antique firearm date forward a year every year. That would make things simpler yet.
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