View Full Version : .308 vs 6.5mm Creedmore
I've read about the advantages of the 6.5 over the .308 round (less recoil, less wind sensitivity, better accuracy, better range, etc.). Being that the .308 is a bigger, heavier projectile, I would have thought that it brings a bit more kinetic energy on target. But if the 6.5mm round impacts with more velocity does that equal or exceed the .308 in that regard?
Subscribing... It's time for me to build a bolt gun in the next year or so.
I'd also factor in the availability of ammo and price. Same with components for reloading. It will be primarily be for the occasional elk/deer hunting trip. I really want to start hunting again and am limited with just my 5" .44 Magnum.
We're knee deep in the 6.5 creedmore right now. And coming from the 175 gr SMK .308 school... 6.5 has yet to impress. For context, we shoot 500-1300 yards every weekend. Right now the 6.5 we're shooting is an LMT gas gun, so there's a little loss in barrel length at just 20".
The gun is suppressed, so it's got that extra umph from the bolt speed increase when you add a can to any semi auto. That said, the recoil is reduced... but not dramatically. The Sunday before last, we really started to see the 6.5 produce. We're 300-400 rounds into this caliber, and we started to see it make predictable hits at 1300 yards.
All in all... at this point, it's a decent round, but there's NO WAY I'd replace the 175 gr SMK in .308 with it. To your point... Nothing beats that big bullet thump on the target at distance. Pappabear is talking about doing a bolt gun in 6.5 which will really be interesting.
Looks like Knight's has their hand in the 6.5mm world:
https://www.janes.com/article/83742/ausa-2018-knight-s-armament-company-unveils-6-5-mm-lamg
Looks like Knight's has their hand in the 6.5mm world:
https://www.janes.com/article/83742/ausa-2018-knight-s-armament-company-unveils-6-5-mm-lamg
Don't tell Pappabear about this!:secret:
I was looking at one of the Ruger Precision Rifles (Gen 3) in .308, and they're also available in 6.5mm. Max range that I would be shooting is probably 300-350 yards. The guys at work that also shoot had almost got me talked into the 6.5 version (their view - "why would you even look at .308 when 6.5 is available?"). I'm leaning toward the .308 rifle because it's a little cheaper.
Barrel life needs to be considered. How many rounds can you expect from each caliber?
For shooting out to 350 yards, not the sure the caliber matters for target shooting. I would factor in ammo/reloading costs and barrel life. Past 1000, 6.5 is a winner for me. And this is coming from someone who owns a 308. In really gusty weather, it took me significantly more rounds to get on target at 1250 vs a friends 6.5 RPR. My particular 308 with a 19” barrel runs out of steam quickly after 1000.
54120
We're all adults here but just in case this is meant to be tongue in cheek.:D
For the record I have rifles in both calibers. I'm about 200 rounds into the 6.5 and I like it so far.
6.5 CM with the right bullet and a 22-26 inch barrel will stay supersonic to 1400-1500 yards. It has less recoil. Past 500 yards it starts to really surpass 308 in wind drift and drop.
The big downside is barrel life. Expect only about 2000-3000 rounds before accuracy starts to drop off.
When I get my AI AT im getting a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel but I'm still keeping the 308 barrel.
I was looking at one of the Ruger Precision Rifles (Gen 3) in .308, and they're also available in 6.5mm. Max range that I would be shooting is probably 300-350 yards. The guys at work that also shoot had almost got me talked into the 6.5 version (their view - "why would you even look at .308 when 6.5 is available?"). I'm leaning toward the .308 rifle because it's a little cheaper.
For those distances, .223 with 77 gr OTMs is way wiser. .308 at that distance is like killing a mosquito with a sledge hammer. The .223 will do 1000 yards all day long in mellow wind. And it's solid to 750 yards, for sure.
I see this all the time on the forum.... "caliber overkill" is what I'm calling it. I can't tell you what a pleasure a nice .223 bolt gun is to shoot.
Averageman
10-12-18, 14:07
Anyone looking at the Savage rifles in this caliber?
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-12-18, 14:15
I was looking at one of the Ruger Precision Rifles (Gen 3) in .308, and they're also available in 6.5mm. Max range that I would be shooting is probably 300-350 yards. The guys at work that also shoot had almost got me talked into the 6.5 version (their view - "why would you even look at .308 when 6.5 is available?"). I'm leaning toward the .308 rifle because it's a little cheaper.
For that I'd look at the 223 version. 308 ammo ain't cheap, though for 350 yards, 168gr would be more than fine. 75-80gr223 is going to smack stuff that close just fine. I agree, having a 308 bolt gun seems like something you just have to have. Barrel life is almost forever.
Anyone looking at the Savage rifles in this caliber?
I am. I’ve always loved 7mm-08, and with the rise in popularity of 6.5, I’m strongly considering one.
Averageman
10-12-18, 14:27
I am. I’ve always loved 7mm-08, and with the rise in popularity of 6.5, I’m strongly considering one.
I have one, I have yet to take it to the range. No excuses, just set it up and forgot about it.
For that I'd look at the 223 version.
For our 20".308 and the 20" .223 with 175 and 77 gr smks respectively, the come up is the same at 500 yards... If a shooter's distances are restricted anywhere inside of 500, the .223 is the logical choice.
For 300-350 yards only get a .22.
A .223 will get you to 600-800 easy.
A 6.5 will get you 1200 easy.
I took a long range precision class. There were 18-20 shooters I can’t remember but only 3 of us with 6.5’s. Were were the first three to get hits past 800. I took me about 12 shots to get from 100 yards to 1000 and make clean hits. This was the first time I ever shot a long range rifle past 300 yards.
The .308 guys were having lots of trouble. My pattern was using 168 SMK in his .308 and it was no co test that the 140 6.5 was smoking his gun. They are easy to shoot.
I can take just about anyone and let them get hits at 800 yards pretty easy with my rifle.
Hell my GF was able to get first round hits at that range her first time shooting anything prone.
Also the barrel life isn’t as bad as people say. If your not running a kid that is super hot 2900 FPSshoot
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn phone won’t let me scroll down for some reason.
So barrel life in the 6.5 is 3000 rounds plus in my experience. Even then your talking about it still holding MOA just not a 1/4 MOA. Unless your loading super hot and using the upper node. I am running 140 eld’s at 2800-2850 out of a 26” barrel.
I will say for a gas gun get the cheapest thing you can shoot as brass cost sucks to loose. I will almost fight someone over a piece of 6.5 Lapua brass. Gas guns are also hard on good brass.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For those distances, .223 with 77 gr OTMs is way wiser. .308 at that distance is like killing a mosquito with a sledge hammer. The .223 will do 1000 yards all day long in mellow wind. And it's solid to 750 yards, for sure.
I see this all the time on the forum.... "caliber overkill" is what I'm calling it. I can't tell you what a pleasure a nice .223 bolt gun is to shoot.
Unless he wants to occasionally hunt with it.
Unless he wants to occasionally hunt with it.
Yeah. That's true for some guys.
titsonritz
10-12-18, 15:40
It will be primarily be for the occasional elk/deer hunting trip.
I have been wondering if the 6.5CM would make a viable Elk harvester...
I'm doing for a precision rifle for sure, thinking of the same in a hunting rifle. What do you guys think?
For that I'd look at the 223 version. 308 ammo ain't cheap, though for 350 yards, 168gr would be more than fine. 75-80gr223 is going to smack stuff that close just fine. I agree, having a 308 bolt gun seems like something you just have to have. Barrel life is almost forever.
Yeah, I've heard barrel life on .308 bolt guns described as anywhere from "very good" to "outstanding". Don't know about semiautos.
Failure2Stop
10-12-18, 16:02
I've been shooting .260 and 6.5 semi-auto guns professionally for a couple of years now. Here's my "off the top of my head" list of observations:
-Recoil is pretty similar to 7.62/.308 when all other variables are the same.
-With factory ammunition, baseline "accuracy" seems to favor 6.5 over .260, but the difference between 6.5 and .308 seems to be more related to the ammunition itself and barrel specifics. I.E.: don't go to 6.5 if your desire is to just shoot tiny groups at 100 with factory ammunition.
-The high BC projectiles really need to be thrown at high speed to show advantage (I'm really liking 130gr at around 2900), which requires a barrel in the 22" area.
-There are magazine limitations for COAL, pay attention to how much room you have in your magazine.
-There is a definite advantage in ranging error with 6.5 over 308, especially if you are coming from 16-20" 308 barrels to a 22" 6.5 (like I did).
-There is a significant wind advantage with 6.5 over 308, and given that most people at high performance levels struggle with wind more than any other single aspect, that makes a difference.
-There is a noticeable difference in time of flight between the two, giving a slight advantage with mid-range moving targets.
I think that a lot of the perception of driven off of primary platform experience. I shot a lot of 16" 308, so when I went to a 22" 6.5 all of the little advantages of the 6.5 over 308 were magnified. If all else is equal, the performance delta of the two is much more narrow, but if you're starting from the ground up, going with 308 for a 22+" gun wouldn't seem like the best decision given that you can get ahead by simply going with a more efficient cartridge.
I have been wondering if the 6.5CM would make a viable Elk harvester...
I'm doing for a precision rifle for sure, thinking of the same in a hunting rifle. What do you guys think?
I don't know why it wouldn't. It's not that far behind the ancient 270 Winchester with 130g bullets. The 270 has killed a million elk and some of them across canyons.
Jack is dead on here. If starting out and have a choice, 6.5 is that choice. Factory loads are more plentiful now, and really good ones too. If terminal ballistics are key, at or around the 7-800 yard range max, then .308 is still a little better.After that 6.5 starts to take over.
All things equal though, the 6.5 trends to be a little easier to be accurate with and with a 24-26" barrel, you can be more accurate over a much greater distance with 6.5. It simply gives more headroom.
If you reload, 6.5 is the choice hands down.
I have a Tikka Tac A1 topped with a Kahles k525i in a sphur sp-4602 mount. Great rifle. I have not had it past 1000 yards yet, but that setup shooting eld-x 143 grains should be good for about 1450 yards or so according to my calculator and scope adjustments54139
I have been wondering if the 6.5CM would make a viable Elk harvester...
I'm doing for a precision rifle for sure, thinking of the same in a hunting rifle. What do you guys think?
They’ve used 6.5X55 in Sweden for ever on Moose.
Sure it’d work, bullet selection being key.
I have been wondering if the 6.5CM would make a viable Elk harvester...
I'm doing for a precision rifle for sure, thinking of the same in a hunting rifle. What do you guys think?
I'm hoping to find out in a week and a half. I'm hand loading 140gr. Nosler Partitions at about 2775fps.
I have been wondering if the 6.5CM would make a viable Elk harvester...
I'm doing for a precision rifle for sure, thinking of the same in a hunting rifle. What do you guys think?Here is an Elk that was just taken in Utah with a 6.5 creedmoor at 1550 yards. This particular hunter has won several state long range and sniper competitions so the ethics police don't need to jump in, he has the skills to do this. 147gr ELD-M bullet, 2 hits in immediate succession.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/6019b05516d71fb7d49fb8fb92f95374.jpg
titsonritz
10-12-18, 22:40
I don't know why it wouldn't. It's not that far behind the ancient 270 Winchester with 130g bullets. The 270 has killed a million elk and some of them across canyons.
They’ve used 6.5X55 in Sweden for ever on Moose.
Sure it’d work, bullet selection being key.
Thought the same thing about those rounds specifically.
I'm hoping to find out in a week and a half. I'm hand loading 140gr. Nosler Partitions at about 2775fps.
Right on, good luck with your hunt. Come back and share with us.
Here is an Elk that was just taken in Utah with a 6.5 creedmoor at 1550 yards. This particular hunter has won several state long range and sniper competitions so the ethics police don't need to jump in, he has the skills to do this. 147gr ELD-M bullet, 2 hits in immediate succession.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/6019b05516d71fb7d49fb8fb92f95374.jpg
OK I'm sold, I don't ever see myself going out that far but it is reassuring knowing the round is much more capable than I.
I've been shooting .260 and 6.5 semi-auto guns professionally for a couple of years now. Here's my "off the top of my head" list of observations:
-Recoil is pretty similar to 7.62/.308 when all other variables are the same.
-With factory ammunition, baseline "accuracy" seems to favor 6.5 over .260, but the difference between 6.5 and .308 seems to be more related to the ammunition itself and barrel specifics. I.E.: don't go to 6.5 if your desire is to just shoot tiny groups at 100 with factory ammunition.
-The high BC projectiles really need to be thrown at high speed to show advantage (I'm really liking 130gr at around 2900), which requires a barrel in the 22" area.
-There are magazine limitations for COAL, pay attention to how much room you have in your magazine.
-There is a definite advantage in ranging error with 6.5 over 308, especially if you are coming from 16-20" 308 barrels to a 22" 6.5 (like I did).
-There is a significant wind advantage with 6.5 over 308, and given that most people at high performance levels struggle with wind more than any other single aspect, that makes a difference.
-There is a noticeable difference in time of flight between the two, giving a slight advantage with mid-range moving targets.
I think that a lot of the perception of driven off of primary platform experience. I shot a lot of 16" 308, so when I went to a 22" 6.5 all of the little advantages of the 6.5 over 308 were magnified. If all else is equal, the performance delta of the two is much more narrow, but if you're starting from the ground up, going with 308 for a 22+" gun wouldn't seem like the best decision given that you can get ahead by simply going with a more efficient cartridge.
Jack is dead on here. If starting out and have a choice, 6.5 is that choice. Factory loads are more plentiful now, and really good ones too. If terminal ballistics are key, at or around the 7-800 yard range max, then .308 is still a little better.After that 6.5 starts to take over.
All things equal though, the 6.5 trends to be a little easier to be accurate with and with a 24-26" barrel, you can be more accurate over a much greater distance with 6.5. It simply gives more headroom.
If you reload, 6.5 is the choice hands down.
They’ve used 6.5X55 in Sweden for ever on Moose.
Sure it’d work, bullet selection being key.
Here is an Elk that was just taken in Utah with a 6.5 creedmoor at 1550 yards.
Looks like I'm sold. 6.5CM it is... Thanks everyone!
Here is an Elk that was just taken in Utah with a 6.5 creedmoor at 1550 yards. This particular hunter has won several state long range and sniper competitions so the ethics police don't need to jump in, he has the skills to do this. 147gr ELD-M bullet, 2 hits in immediate succession.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181013/6019b05516d71fb7d49fb8fb92f95374.jpg
Very nice.
Here is an Elk that was just taken in Utah with a 6.5 creedmoor at 1550 yards.
Damn. That beats Pappabear's 1300 yard Bull Elk kill.
Damn. That beats Pappabear's 1300 yard Bull Elk kill.
that is getting it done. Im a bit surprised the 6.5 got it done at `1550. The round just seems to hit steel so soft at 1,300 , oh well the dead elk don't lie. He Dead
PB
that is getting it done. Im a bit surprised the 6.5 got it done at `1550. The round just seems to hit steel so soft at 1,300 , oh well the dead elk don't lie. He Dead
PBIt is pushing the limits for sure. His load was estimated at 624ft lbs energy at that distance according to strelok. But results are results.
titsonritz
10-13-18, 14:02
Damn. That beats Pappabear's 1300 yard Bull Elk kill.
Was with a 6.5CM?
Was with a 6.5CM?
No. 300 WM. He just got the 6.5 several weeks ago.
Has anyone tried the fusion MSR in 6.5? I love the speer gold dot bullet, how is accuracy and effect of target?
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Is there any evidence that the increased popularity of 6.5 has impacted the sales of .308 rifles?
Is there any evidence that the increased popularity of 6.5 has impacted the sales of .308 rifles?
I don't know of any official evidence, but it's not hard to believe that most of the purchasers of 6.5 Creedmoor rifles were considering a 308 to some degree.
I don't recall you stating your intended target...paper or steel, or large game. If it's paper or steel, within your relatively short distance, then I agree with those that said a .223 Remington will get the job done nicely with less expense and recoil. If it's large game, then the 308, with its decreased cost is a solid option. 6.5s are great, but deliver a small improvement under most circumstances out to 300 yards.
Has anyone tried the fusion MSR in 6.5? I love the speer gold dot bullet, how is accuracy and effect of target?
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
I bought the American Gunner from Sportsman warehouse with MOA results, good stuff for slinging and Sellior & Bellot 6.5 ammo cheap , I mean cheap like $300 for 500 cheap both are 140 grain bullets BTHP stuff both Moa
PB
Jwknutson17
10-14-18, 08:36
I would also keep in mind that 30cal pills have come a long way since the SMK bullet. Most folks are comparing Berger or Hornady 6.5 bullets to older .308 pills. Some of the new .308 pills have much higher BC and it narrows the gap. I have a 16 inch 308 barrel in my Q the fix and a 17 inch 6.5cm barrel also. For being a LW handy hunting gun on deer inside 500. The 6.5 using 147gr eldx vs the 178gr 308 eldx the 6.5 will never pass the energy of the 308 at any point through 1000 yards and beyond. Inside that 500 it's a huge spread. With a very very slight wind advantage to the 6.5 I don't see it worth it on game. I don't have the ft.lbs numbers in front of me this am but it was not worth it to go away from 308 when comparing similar length barrels.
Shooting the magnums with these new high BC pills just blows my expectations at distance. The 225 gr .308 Hornady eld pills I shoot in my 300 Norma Magnum have a bc of .777. that's a G1 also. Crazy. For game at any ethical distance based on your experience and skills, I always pick the higher energy caliber within reason.
Good for the guy who shot that bull at 1550 yards with a 6.5. I say thats just plain stupid. I would say he should have shot it with something else. Yea it may have killed it, but it wasnt the proper tool for the job. Glad he was able to get another round on it. Great bull none the less. At that distance he should have been using a 300wm with 200gr plus pills at a very minimum and ideally an ultra Magnum, 300NM, or a 338. I personally don't pick up the minimum caliber to barley get the job done. For hunting big game, pick one that just gets it done. For me, the higher energy rounds are my choice. Yea yea I know shot placement is key, so if that was the only case, that seems to be the main argument with small caliber big game hunters, then a 22lr will do if hit in the correct place. Right??
I also do own a few 6.5 guns, so I appreciate the round for what it is. Along with many, many, other calibers. I just don't think 6.5 is a elk hunting gun. And I don't use a 308 win either. My opinions of course.
BrigandTwoFour
10-14-18, 08:55
I appreciate the discussion here.
My own research turned up that there really isn’t a whole lot of difference up to about 600 meters or so.
I’ve had an unfinished large frame AR for many years now. Stuck in barrel choice. I think the plan right now is to finish it with a 16” 308 barrel. I don’t get many opportunities to shoot past 300 these days (hence why this project has lingered, I started it when I had ready access to a 1000 yard range). I figure a suppressed 16” semi works great for my uses.
I have a 20” bolt gun that I also plan on rebarreling to a 22” 6.5 CM. That would meet my long range needs if I can ever get back to a place with the distance.
I would also keep in mind that 30cal pills have come a long way since the SMK bullet. Most folks are comparing Berger or Hornady 6.5 bullets to older .308 pills. Some of the new .308 pills have much higher BC and it narrows the gap. I have a 16 inch 308 barrel in my Q the fix and a 17 inch 6.5cm barrel also. For being a LW handy hunting gun on deer inside 500. The 6.5 using 147gr eldx vs the 178gr 308 eldx the 6.5 will never pass the energy of the 308 at any point through 1000 yards and beyond. Inside that 500 it's a huge spread. With a very very slight wind advantage to the 6.5 I don't see it worth it on game. I don't have the ft.lbs numbers in front of me this am but it was not worth it to go away from 308 when comparing similar length barrels.
Shooting the magnums with these new high BC pills just blows my expectations at distance. The 225 gr .308 Hornady eld pills I shoot in my 300 Norma Magnum have a bc of .777. that's a G1 also. Crazy. For game at any ethical distance based on your experience and skills, I always pick the higher energy caliber within reason.
Good for the guy who shot that bull at 1550 yards with a 6.5. I say thats just plain stupid. I would say he should have shot it with something else. Yea it may have killed it, but it wasnt the proper tool for the job. Glad he was able to get another round on it. Great bull none the less. At that distance he should have been using a 300wm with 200gr plus pills at a very minimum and ideally an ultra Magnum, 300NM, or a 338. I personally don't pick up the minimum caliber to barley get the job done. For hunting big game, pick one that just gets it done. For me, the higher energy rounds are my choice. Yea yea I know shot placement is key, so if that was the only case, that seems to be the main argument with small caliber big game hunters, then a 22lr will do if hit in the correct place. Right??
I also do own a few 6.5 guns, so I appreciate the round for what it is. Along with many, many, other calibers. I just don't think 6.5 is a elk hunting gun. And I don't use a 308 win either. My opinions of course.
You make a lot of excellent points. I love my rifles that are chambered in 6.5 creedmoor, but like anything else I think it's important to know the limitations of a particular tool, and to choose the best tool for the job when possible.
At 1550 yds those 147gr 6.5 Creedmoor rounds were subsonic and only carrying in the neighborhood of 400 fl/bs of KE, about 1/3 of the minimum KE recommended for an ethical shot on an Elk. Sure the Bull is dead, and the shooter is clearly a skilled marksman, but to me it suggests a lack of respect for the potential to cause the animal unnecessary suffering. I'd be interested to know if those bullets expanded at that distance, especially since the 147gr Hornady is a Match bullet and not the ELD-X expanding hunting bullet.
If you go strictly on Kinetic Energy the Creed (143gr ELD-X at 2700 mv) is adequate for Elk out to 500-550 yards.
You make a lot of excellent points. I love my rifles that are chambered in 6.5 creedmoor, but like anything else I think it's important to know the limitations of a particular tool, and to choose the best tool for the job when possible.
At 1550 yds those 147gr 6.5 Creedmoor rounds were subsonic and only carrying in the neighborhood of 400 fl/bs of KE, about 1/3 of the minimum KE recommended for an ethical shot on an Elk. Sure the Bull is dead, and the shooter is clearly a skilled marksman, but to me it suggests a lack of respect for the potential to cause the animal unnecessary suffering. I'd be interested to know if those bullets expanded at that distance, especially since the 147gr Hornady is a Match bullet and not the ELD-X expanding hunting bullet.
If you go strictly on Kinetic Energy the Creed (143gr ELD-X at 2700 mv) is adequate for Elk out to 500-550 yards.624 ftlbs for 147gr ELDM going 2787fps mv. 2 hits 4 inches apart. Keep in mind Utah high altitude, less drag.
Bullet retrieved.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/32408c390c309a0b6b3cd2511d8f650d.jpg
624 ftlbs for 147gr ELDM going 2787fps mv. 2 hits 4 inches apart. Keep in mind Utah high altitude, less drag.
Bullet retrieved.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181014/32408c390c309a0b6b3cd2511d8f650d.jpg
That is stunningly good shooting. I doubt if I could put 2 rounds 4" apart at 500 yards in the field.
Andy
That is stunningly good shooting. I doubt if I could put 2 rounds 4" apart at 500 yards in the field.
AndyIf you are interested in the original post or more pictures, check out Long Range Shooters of Utah facebook group. This guy is pretty famous in that group. This group also has a youtube channel where they host the "milk jug challenge". Tons of good LR shooting material.
Good for the guy who shot that bull at 1550 yards with a 6.5. I say thats just plain stupid. I would say he should have shot it with something else. Yea it may have killed it, but it wasnt the proper tool for the job. Glad he was able to get another round on it. Great bull none the less. At that distance he should have been using a 300wm with 200gr plus pills at a very minimum and ideally an ultra Magnum, 300NM, or a 338. I personally don't pick up the minimum caliber to barley get the job done. For hunting big game, pick one that just gets it done. For me, the higher energy rounds are my choice. Yea yea I know shot placement is key, so if that was the only case, that seems to be the main argument with small caliber big game hunters, then a 22lr will do if hit in the correct place. Right??
I tend to agree.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.