View Full Version : Yippee! Finally! A semi auto that works out of the box!
Smith M&P 2.0, 9mm, Full size, 17+1.
Got it brand new. Cleaned it, a dash of CLP, took it to the range.
Ammo was:
Federal American eagle 124 grain fmj
RP JHP 115
Federal American eagle 147 fmj
Winchester Q4318 NATO
Federal champion 115 fmj
Fired almost 250 rounds of the above. Not a stutter. Accuracy was 4 inch patterns at 7 yards. Minute of thug in a robbery attempt. No ammo was more accurate than any other. (Not shooter's fault either. Groups tightened when I switched to .22 target pistol).
Another session like this, and it's my new packing piece. I'm used to sending new guns back so they can finish building them. Not this one.
This is really an improved Glock. Proper grip angle, thumb safety. Pretty cool.
I have a cheap ($290) Walther PPX that is 100% reliable and surprisingly accurate out of the box, so reliable handguns are out there.
I'm used to sending new guns back so they can finish building them.
Tough luck. Last duty/carry purpose gun that I had bought and it didn't run was a 2011 full size M&P. Since then 5 HKs, 6 Berettas, 6 Glocks, three CZs and one Ruger shot everything I asked them to.
Smith M&P 2.0, 9mm, Full size, 17+1.
Accuracy was 4 inch patterns at 7 yards... (Not shooter's fault either...)
4 inch group at 7 yards that is not a shooter fault would send a pistol straight to a junkyard if it was my pistol. YMMV.
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the abysmal failure rate of brand new guns.
Over the years I've bought brand new
CZ American .22 bolt action rifle
Kel Tec .32 pocket pistol
Springfield Operator 10mm
Ruger 9e
Remington 870 20 gauge
Colt Defender compact 1911 .40 S&W
There might be more, if I could remember. Each of these failed right out of the box.
The CZ rifle's bolt would not fit into the receiver, due apparently to mis-machining of the receiver. CZ wanted me to send a deposit for repair. I put the gun in the trash bin where it belonged, and bought a 10-22. I never saw it fire a shot.
The Kel Tec failed to feed and to eject. After two trips to Kel-Tec, they issued me a check for a refund.
The Sprg. Operator 10mm is right now at Sprg. for the second time. These guns are not cheap. Perhaps they'll finish building it into something that can function and hit a target.
The Ruger 9e suffered extraction failures. They replaced the barrel and extractor. I haven't tested it yet.
The 870's action was apparently mis-machined such that the bolt refused to move back and forth in the receiver. It never did fire a shot.
The Colt Defender suffered failure to feed, failure to extract, and sometimes shot unfired cartridges out of the ejection port. It would have been hilarious if it hadn't cost me real money. I sent it to Colt at my expense. After two months, they sent it back. It suffered the same problems. I sent it back again to Colt at my expense (UPS Air ain't cheap). They kept it almost three months. I couldn't get anybody on the phone. I sent faxes. No response. I wrote a letter to the president of Colt's Firearms. I got a call from somebody promising me a totally hand-tested and repaired gun. They finally sent it back. It failed again. I sent it back a third time at my expense. They replaced it with a .45 ACP version of the same gun. I traded that off new in box.
Can anybody think of a consumer product that has a higher failure rate right out of the box? I'm not talking Bryco or Jennings. These are firearms made by respected old names. Even weed-eaters are more reliable than new firearms. If any other manufacturers put out crap like this, they'd be out of business. But gun companies get away with it. Why? I partly blame gun writers and the NRA. They know the manufacturers give them specially-prepared hand polished test pieces, and sell us the rough stuff. How many "reviews" have we seen where the guns stovepipe and fail to feed in the first 100 rounds, and the "reviewer" brushes this off with a comment about "break in time?"
When you buy a gun, you are essentially buying a combination lottery ticket / warranty claim, not a functioning firearm. I call this "gun control by product failure."
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the abysmal failure rate of brand new guns.
Over the years I've bought brand new
CZ American .22 bolt action rifle
Kel Tec .32 pocket pistol
Springfield Operator 10mm
Ruger 9e
Remington 870 20 gauge
Colt Defender compact 1911 .40 S&W
There might be more, if I could remember. Each of these failed right out of the box.
The CZ rifle's bolt would not fit into the receiver, due apparently to mis-machining of the receiver. CZ wanted me to send a deposit for repair. I put the gun in the trash bin where it belonged, and bought a 10-22. I never saw it fire a shot.
The Kel Tec failed to feed and to eject. After two trips to Kel-Tec, they issued me a check for a refund.
The Sprg. Operator 10mm is right now at Sprg. for the second time. These guns are not cheap. Perhaps they'll finish building it into something that can function and hit a target.
The Ruger 9e suffered extraction failures. They replaced the barrel and extractor. I haven't tested it yet.
The 870's action was apparently mis-machined such that the bolt refused to move back and forth in the receiver. It never did fire a shot.
The Colt Defender suffered failure to feed, failure to extract, and sometimes shot unfired cartridges out of the ejection port. It would have been hilarious if it hadn't cost me real money. I sent it to Colt at my expense. After two months, they sent it back. It suffered the same problems. I sent it back again to Colt at my expense (UPS Air ain't cheap). They kept it almost three months. I couldn't get anybody on the phone. I sent faxes. No response. I wrote a letter to the president of Colt's Firearms. I got a call from somebody promising me a totally hand-tested and repaired gun. They finally sent it back. It failed again. I sent it back a third time at my expense. They replaced it with a .45 ACP version of the same gun. I traded that off new in box.
Can anybody think of a consumer product that has a higher failure rate right out of the box? I'm not talking Bryco or Jennings. These are firearms made by respected old names. Even weed-eaters are more reliable than new firearms. If any other manufacturers put out crap like this, they'd be out of business. But gun companies get away with it. Why? I partly blame gun writers and the NRA. They know the manufacturers give them specially-prepared hand polished test pieces, and sell us the rough stuff. How many "reviews" have we seen where the guns stovepipe and fail to feed in the first 100 rounds, and the "reviewer" brushes this off with a comment about "break in time?"
When you buy a gun, you are essentially buying a combination lottery ticket / warranty claim, not a functioning firearm. I call this "gun control by product failure."
I wouldn't really expect any of those to work.
CZ: .22s are known to be finicky.
Kel Tec: Its a Kel Tec. And its in .32.
Springfield: 10mm is a new platform for them and puts a lot of stress on a gun.
Ruger: its a Ruger. The 10/22 is one of their few major success stories.
Remington: known issues (especially with the express line) since Freedom Group took over.
Colt: compact 1911s are known to be finicky, and .40 isn't a heavily vetted caliber for them.
I will say that the Springfield is a bummer, but go try any of the large number of firearms that are generally accepted as reliable and I'd be surprised if you didn't have better luck.
I wouldn't really expect any of those to work.
CZ: .22s are known to be finicky.
Kel Tec: Its a Kel Tec. And its in .32.
Springfield: 10mm is a new platform for them and puts a lot of stress on a gun.
Ruger: its a Ruger. The 10/22 is one of their few major success stories.
Remington: known issues (especially with the express line) since Freedom Group took over.
Colt: compact 1911s are known to be finicky, and .40 isn't a heavily vetted caliber for them.
I will say that the Springfield is a bummer, but go try any of the large number of firearms that are generally accepted as reliable and I'd be surprised if you didn't have better luck.
I need a list of these.
I need a list of these.
Beretta 92 series 9mm
Beretta 81 series in .380
Beretta PX4 fullsize and compact 9mm
Sig 2xx series in .380 and 9mm
Double stack 9mm, .40, .357, 10mm Glocks (I haven’t tried .45, and have limited experience with the 42 and 43)
HK USP 9mm and .40
There are lots more, but these are the ones I have the most experience with, and they’ve all run without issues, and require no modifications to work. I have gotten brass to face with some Glocks, mostly when filthy.
Friends of mine have had good results from XD’s, M&P’s, and FN’s.
You must have terrible luck, if you have been struggling to find a stock pistol that eats ammo reliably.
Edit: I am one of the guys that tends to ride the slide release on some Sigs, resulting in frequent failures to lock back on empty. Not sure if we should call that my fault, or a bad design, for the purposes of this conversation.
Beretta 92 series 9mm
Beretta 81 series in .380
Beretta PX4 fullsize and compact 9mm
Sig 2xx series in .380 and 9mm
Double stack 9mm, .40, .357, 10mm Glocks (I haven’t tried .45, and have limited experience with the 42 and 43)
HK USP 9mm and .40
There are lots more, but these are the ones I have the most experience with, and they’ve all run without issues, and require no modifications to work. I have gotten brass to face with some Glocks, mostly when filthy.
Friends of mine have had good results from XD’s, M&P’s, and FN’s.
You must have terrible luck, if you have been struggling to find a stock pistol that eats ammo reliably.
Edit: I am one of the guys that tends to ride the slide release on some Sigs, resulting in frequent failures to lock back on empty. Not sure if we should call that my fault, or a bad design, for the purposes of this conversation.
Adding positive personal experiences from Glock 19s and M&P 9s. Trouble-free 1911s come in .45 from Colt or Springfield, and 9mm if you’re willing to pay higher prices like Dan Wessons or Wilsons.
S&W M&P 15-22 or Ruger 10/22 for semi auto rifles.
Mossberg seems to be much better than Remington these days, obviously Berettas and Benellis do well too.
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Remember that old saying... if something keeps happening to you... YOU might be the problem...
;)
That is hardly surprising. I own a lot of pistols and all have worked right out of the box.
Really?
There are tons of options for guns that work out of the box. You just havent tried any of them.
And that “accuracy” is not attributed to ammo or gun at all. Even the bad M&Ps did better.
Glad you finally found your gun, time to wear it out.
ramairthree
10-13-18, 11:05
My out of the box or used guns that have all been 100% out of the box are:
Dozens of Beretta 92 and 96 series.
My three PX series and one ApX series have been the same.
Some SPO1 and PO1 CZs.
A handful of second gen G19s and G17s.
P226s.
My 320, TP9, and some XDMs.
Any Glock, Sig, H&K or FN I have owned have all run perfectly with the exception of an early G42 that had some feed issues. I recently consolidated to M&P’s and life is also good. I do miss my FNP9 tho. That thing ran in all assortment of dirty.
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the abysmal failure rate of brand new guns.
Over the years I've bought brand new
CZ American .22 bolt action rifle
Kel Tec .32 pocket pistol
Springfield Operator 10mm
Ruger 9e
Remington 870 20 gauge
Colt Defender compact 1911 .40 S&W
There might be more, if I could remember. Each of these failed right out of the box.
The CZ rifle's bolt would not fit into the receiver, due apparently to mis-machining of the receiver. CZ wanted me to send a deposit for repair. I put the gun in the trash bin where it belonged, and bought a 10-22. I never saw it fire a shot.
The Kel Tec failed to feed and to eject. After two trips to Kel-Tec, they issued me a check for a refund.
The Sprg. Operator 10mm is right now at Sprg. for the second time. These guns are not cheap. Perhaps they'll finish building it into something that can function and hit a target.
The Ruger 9e suffered extraction failures. They replaced the barrel and extractor. I haven't tested it yet.
The 870's action was apparently mis-machined such that the bolt refused to move back and forth in the receiver. It never did fire a shot.
The Colt Defender suffered failure to feed, failure to extract, and sometimes shot unfired cartridges out of the ejection port. It would have been hilarious if it hadn't cost me real money. I sent it to Colt at my expense. After two months, they sent it back. It suffered the same problems. I sent it back again to Colt at my expense (UPS Air ain't cheap). They kept it almost three months. I couldn't get anybody on the phone. I sent faxes. No response. I wrote a letter to the president of Colt's Firearms. I got a call from somebody promising me a totally hand-tested and repaired gun. They finally sent it back. It failed again. I sent it back a third time at my expense. They replaced it with a .45 ACP version of the same gun. I traded that off new in box.
Can anybody think of a consumer product that has a higher failure rate right out of the box? I'm not talking Bryco or Jennings. These are firearms made by respected old names. Even weed-eaters are more reliable than new firearms. If any other manufacturers put out crap like this, they'd be out of business. But gun companies get away with it. Why? I partly blame gun writers and the NRA. They know the manufacturers give them specially-prepared hand polished test pieces, and sell us the rough stuff. How many "reviews" have we seen where the guns stovepipe and fail to feed in the first 100 rounds, and the "reviewer" brushes this off with a comment about "break in time?"
When you buy a gun, you are essentially buying a combination lottery ticket / warranty claim, not a functioning firearm. I call this "gun control by product failure."
Boy you can really pick them. Ive only had a couple handguns or guns period that didn't run. As stated, your choice of guns is moving in the right direction. That is one list of doozies!
PB
Out of these new firearms:
Sig 226 9mm MK25
Sig C3 1911 .45
Sig 516 16" 5.56
Sig 516 10" 5.56
Browning Buckmark .22
Glock 19 9mm
Troy 16" AR 16" 5.56
PTR-91 ( HK91 clone) 7.62
Only the PTR had any issue and needed to be returned for a new FCG. Maybe I'm lucky? I do run some of them hard, but keep them clean and lubed.
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With the exception of the Springfield start buying better guns. Have never had an issue out of the box but I never buy those guns you listed.
Keltec is a hair above Jennings.
It's like complaining about automobile quality and reliability while only buying Yugos
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Boy you can really pick them. Ive only had a couple handguns or guns period that didn't run.
He needs to get a KIMBER!! :dance3:
Are you familiar with the CZ bolt release?
Other than that the list you have is also a list of guns likely to have problems.
He needs to get a KIMBER!! :dance3:
Yeah those POS!
My wife bought me the Kimber Classic Golden Match for my 45th birthday. The first three rounds I fired out of mine clover leafed at 25 yards. I used to have a Gold Cup for such things, now I have a Kimber and the Gold Cup is gone.
I haven't shot it more than a hundred or so rounds a year for the last 10 years or so, but I used it hard for a couple of years and it never needed anything but springs and slide glide.
ETA: Yeah, I know, sample of one. :dance3:
Yeah those POS!
My wife bought me the Kimber Classic Golden Match for my 45th birthday. The first three rounds I fired out of mine clover leafed at 25 yards. I used to have a Gold Cup for such things, now I have a Kimber and the Gold Cup is gone.
I haven't shot it more than a hundred or so rounds a year for the last 10 years or so, but I used it hard for a couple of years and it never needed anything but springs and slide glide.
ETA: Yeah, I know, sample of one. :dance3:
My Kimber Gold Combat has been about as reliable as either of the Colts I’ve been issued. I haven’t kept a log of stoppages, so this is a very subjective observation. That said I don’t really take 1911’s all that seriously anymore, and all 3 of those guns were less reliable than my 92’s and plastic guns.
The only firearm that's given me any trouble was a Sig P238, which I bought soon after they were released. It now runs great.
I hope your 4" group at 7 yards was fired rapidly. If not, then that's not even close to good enough for me.
You've been given good advice so far, so I'm not gonna repeat it.
556BlackRifle
10-13-18, 17:36
I've been pretty lucky. This is off the top of my head so I may be missing a few. Failures marked with an *
Beretta Jet Fire 22LR, 92A1.
Browning HP, BDA 380
Colt Pistols: Gold Cup, Government Model
*Colt Revolvers Detective Special no problems, *Colt Trooper - Broken Trigger.
Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail
Glocks 18 of them no failures.
H&R Model 650 22LR / 22WMR
Kimber Custom, Custom Compact
Llama 1911 clone
Para GI 1911 (Made in Canada just before the move)
Ruger Pistols 7
Ruger Revolvers 3
*Sig P226, P228, P320 All but the 320 W German and all 100%, *P229 40 that was a POS. Agency issued.
S&W Revolvers 8
S&W Pistols 3
* Taurus PT something. Complete POS.
Walther TPH, PPK, PPK/s
My Kimber Gold Combat has been about as reliable as either of the Colts I’ve been issued. I haven’t kept a log of stoppages, so this is a very subjective observation. That said I don’t really take 1911’s all that seriously anymore, and all 3 of those guns were less reliable than my 92’s and plastic guns.
Way back when I went through a stage where I qualified with the .45 (Commander) and carried it on occasion. That came to an end one night during a short foot chase, I was carrying the .45 and drew under some stress - using the same draw stroke I used from the Hoyt breakfront I carried my revolver in when I wasn't being cool. Lesson learned.
That and the 'two-is-one' stuff that guys spending fortunes on Wilson, Les Baer, C&SS pistols were espousing, relegated the 1911's to range toy status for me. I primarily used the Kimber for shooting bullseye at our state LE conferences.
Business_Casual
10-13-18, 18:34
Hahaha I bought a 4” Kimber in .40 years ago because some Highway agency issued them. Never worked and never will.
Guess Ive been lucky! The only truly"bad" pistol I've had was a FNP-45 that had a dead trigger every so often. It went back to FN twice for same issue. My confidence in it, in any role. was gone 100% at this point. Plus, I was tired about hearing how it was my fault due my ammo, grip, bad magazines, position of stars so forth and so on. It was repaired by FN after the second time then gifted, with full disclosure, to a friend who loved it from day one. He's had no issues with it and uses it as his HD gun. Go figure!!! Eons ago, I did have a brand new S&W 6904 that was giving me grief at the range from day one. On the same day, I went home cleaned it thoroughly, picked new mags, changed ammo, etc. but after a mag or two it would fail to go into battery etc. I shelved it for a while after 3 bad range outings. I was pissed as this cost me a lot back then ( I was on a limited budget!) plus it was my first "new" gun. I had only been able purchase a well used S&W revolver (Mod 10) and used Ruger MKII 22lr. I was talking to a local cop about the issues & he told me he had the same issue with a brand new S&W 5906, told me to lube it throughly and apply a coat grease on slide rails. Lightbulb moment... I had failed to lube the gun after cleaning it. All my fault, not the guns at all and, FWIW, the gun runs like a top 30+ years later!
Guess Ive been lucky! The only truly"bad" pistol I've had was a FNP-45 that had a dead trigger every so often. It went back to FN twice for same issue. My confidence in it, in any role. was gone 100% at this point. Plus, I was tired about hearing how it was my fault due my ammo, grip, bad magazines, position of stars so forth and so on. It was repaired by FN after the second time then gifted, with full disclosure, to a friend who loved it from day one. He's had no issues with it and uses it as his HD gun. Go figure!!! Eons ago, I did have a brand new S&W 6904 that was giving me grief at the range from day one. On the same day, I went home cleaned it thoroughly, picked new mags, changed ammo, etc. but after a mag or two it would fail to go into battery etc. I shelved it for a while after 3 bad range outings. I was pissed as this cost me a lot back then ( I was on a limited budget!) plus it was my first "new" gun. I had only been able purchase a well used S&W revolver (Mod 10) and used Ruger MKII 22lr. I was talking to a local cop about the issues & he told me he had the same issue with a brand new S&W 5906, told me to lube it throughly and apply a coat grease on slide rails. Lightbulb moment... I had failed to lube the gun after cleaning it. All my fault, not the guns at all and, FWIW, the gun runs like a top 30+ years later!Really? I run my 5906 dry as a bone. Always have. Same for when I had the 4006, 1006, 4506, 4566, 5946. They're not carry guns but never had then fail
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Really? I run my 5906 dry as a bone.
Why’s that?
Nightstalker865
10-14-18, 08:47
Really? I run my 5906 dry as a bone. Always have.
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Why on earth would you run any gun dry?
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Why’s that?I don't do it on purpose. I'm not testing reliability or anything like that. I just shoot it infrequently. There's no point in cleaning it after a few hundred rounds. So it'll sit till I shoot it next time and the process will repeat itself until I eventually clean it but in the meantime it dries out
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Why on earth would you run any gun dry?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhats going to happen to a stainless steel gun that gets shot occasionally?
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Whats going to happen to a stainless steel gun that gets shot occasionally?
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Well, potentially rust, increased wear, and reduced reliability, but the way you stated it came across like it was on purpose.
Makes more sense now that you explained it.
To the OP, I hope you clean the guns and lube them before shooting for the first time.
Edit- this thread is a great example where the “buy a g19” mentality comes from.
How much time an money was wasted on different handguns and calibers for “looks”, “price”, “power”, “fits my hand”, “[insert reason for not buying common , reliable 9mm handgun]”.
Buy a g19/M&P/Sig, when you wear it out, decide if you want to replace it with something else or not.
I am concerned by a 4"group at 7 yards.
My P07 put 100 rounds into a group slightly bigger than 2" at 25 yards.
OP does indeed clean his guns, and keep them lubed well with CLP, first time, every time.
Re: running semi autos dry. Not a good idea. Reliability, increased wear--metal parts are designed to be lubed. You can run an AR dirty as hell (I mean with combustion products, not extrinsic sand) and it'll keep running indefinitely, as long as you hose it down with CLP. I run all my guns wet.
Wow.......a lot to read here.
Glad you like the M&P, I surely wouldn’t call it an improved Glock. It’s an improved Sigma, which was a horrible pistol.
I’ve never had a semi auto pistol that hasn’t run straight out of the box.
Guess I must be lucky, I have about 20 handguns and 30 long guns and buy or trade 3 to 6 different ones a year.
It's no surprise the four Glocks I've bought over the year were all good out of the box, even that gen 4 G19 that threw brass in my face.
But I also have some cheap stuff too that's run right. Even my Kel Tec P-32 hasn't given me any trouble.
I did have a few that I never could get to run reliably. A Kahr PM45 that still jammed occasionally after 500 round break-in.
A Just Right .45acp carbine with even more rounds downrange and countless mods, would occasionally misfeed.
Even a S&W mod. 681, bought VERY used unlike the ones above, would occasionally lock up, even after two trips to the gunsmith. Guess that's why it was so cheap!
The absolute worst POS was a Diamondback DB380. A co-worker bought one, bragged about it enough I bought one too. After 300 rounds the trigger bar broke and during all that it NEVER ran thru a complete magazine without jamming at least once, maybe twice. Every time I took it to the range I came back bleeding, either from slide bite (only gun to ever do that to me, not even a Browning Hi Power bit me) or from or from trying to clear a jam. When it stopped working it was almost a relief, like a curse had been lifted and I could walk away from it.
If a thief ever breaks in to my house and all I have is a DB380 I'd toss it to him and go look for a baseball bat or a 2x4 while he wastes his time trying to fire it.
The only firearm I had to ship back to the factory was a Kel Tec CMR-30 .22mag carbine, first trip out and the bolt came loose from the carrier after less than 100 rounds. KT shipped it back on their dime and got it back to me in two weeks and hasn't had a problem since.
The worst self inflicted malfunctions were with a brand new RIA Tac II 1911. Bought it at a local shop that also had an indoor range, took it right back to a lane bone dry and every other shot was a jam. Finally had enough sense to take it to the clean/lube station and dropped some CLP in it, ran like a sewing machine after that.
...Edit- this thread is a great example where the “buy a g19” mentality comes from...
Interestingly, the only modern pistol I’ve owned that had any significant issues was a Gen3 Glock 19. It would fail to eject every 30-40 rounds or so. No amount of parts-swapping would make it behave as a good Glock should.
No brand-hate here; I have a dozen Gen1-4 guns that run like sewing machines. But nothing made by human hands is perfect.
Remember that old saying... if something keeps happening to you... YOU might be the problem...
;)
I think you're on to something here! ;)
NYH1.
Achilles11B
10-15-18, 17:10
No brand-hate here; I have a dozen Gen1-4 guns that run like sewing machines. But nothing made by human hands is perfect.
Well said. The most reliable pistol I’ve ever owned and most unreliable pistol I’ve ever owned were both Glocks. The difference is that Glock has a pretty good track record and my Gen 4 41, and it’s tendency to FTE about 5-6 rounds/box, was the exception, not the rule.
Second trip to the range with the M&P. About 250 rounds of factory fodder were shot.
Browning 147 grain FMJ
IMI Israeli 124 grain FMJ
Federal Champion 115 grain FMJ
Federal American Eagle 147 grain FMJ
Federal American Eagle 124 grain FMJ
Winchester Q4318 NATO 124 grain FMJ
R-P 115 grain JHP standard pressure
As before, there were zero failures of any kind. I lightly lubed with CLP before the trip out.
It's my new carry gun.
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