View Full Version : Why is a “duty” pistol larger than other pistols?
Business_Casual
10-14-18, 08:45
If you look at the specifications, what does the extra .5 inch of barrel or 2 rounds do to justify the larger frame and bulk? Or is it just traditional stemming from .357 revolver days? What do you think?
glockshooter
10-14-18, 09:23
Larger handguns are typically easier to shoot. The bigger grip, weight, sight radius, extra rounds all play a part. I don’t know many people that can shoot a compact gun better than a full-size one. The reason there are different sizes is because people use them for different purposes.
Duty type pistol's do not need to be concealed so can be larger.
I'm just guessing here but chances of a LEO to get into a gun fight is greater than for your avg person. If chances are greater then having more ammo is better. More ammo means bigger gun.
But again.... just a guess. Also they don't have to worry about concealing.
I'm sure there's a million reasons why. I have seen some departments issue G26/27 but I don't know if that's primary or backup
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Duty type pistol's do not need to be concealed so can be larger.
This.
There is no need to conceal it and it’s carried generally in a sturdy and sizeable holster anyway.
The lines nowadays are blurred as guys AIWB a G34 and some guys open carry a G26. Duty pistols in the current vernacular should really reference quality. Glock. Duty Grade. Taurus. Probably not.
Full size handguns are usually easier to shoot because of the longer sight radius and they tend not to be as snappy as well.
I used to have a Ruger LC9 that was pretty unpleasant to shoot due to it's compact size.
Business_Casual
10-14-18, 11:00
I'm just guessing here but chances of a LEO to get into a gun fight is greater than for your avg person. If chances are greater then having more ammo is better. More ammo means bigger gun.
But again.... just a guess. Also they don't have to worry about concealing.
I'm sure there's a million reasons why. I have seen some departments issue G26/27 but I don't know if that's primary or backup
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Perhaps, but 6 shot .38s wth 4” barrels were in a lot of holsters for decades.
As other said, duty = mil/leo. They want a full/normal sized handgun.
Others are compact or competition (larger).
I think your title is backwards. Duty guns arent larger than other guns, duty guns ARE the standard/baseline size. Most pistols are designed as “duty/normal size” at first, (m1911, G17, smith M&P, highpower, sig 226, beretta m92)
Then they come out with compact (commander, g19, MP compact, sig 229)
And competition sizes (6” 1911 barrels, g34, mP pro 5”).
Perhaps, but 6 shot .38s wth 4” barrels were in a lot of holsters for decades.True but same went for bad guys. It's before my time but seems like revolvers were the most common handgun. Small semi autos had about the same capacity. I can only think of 3 common early types of semi autos. HiPower, 1911, S&W 39 and 59. None of them were cheap, at least not as cheap as a model 10 revolver or it's copies.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
True but same went for bad guys. It's before my time but seems like revolvers were the most common handgun. Small semi autos had about the same capacity. I can only think of 3 common early types of semi autos. HiPower, 1911, S&W 39 and 59. None of them were cheap, at least not as cheap as a model 10 revolver or it's copies.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Also:
Walther P-38
Colt 1903
FN 1905
FN 1910
Savage 1907
You're right that from their inception until the last decade or two of the 20th Century, revolvers ruled the world
Also:
Walther P-38
Colt 1903
FN 1905
FN 1910
Savage 1907
You're right that from their inception until the last decade or two of the 20th Century, revolvers ruled the worldMost of those carried about the same ammo. FN1910 is 6 rounds of 380 or 7 of 32. FN 1905 6 rounds of 25. Still in the same ballpark as a 6 sh
I don't know how widely used surplus semi auto firearms were like P38
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Better to stick with "full size", "compact", "subcompact" and maybe "micro". It's as common to see G19s, 320 compacts, M&P 2.0 compacts, and P228/229 sized guns in "duty" applications as their full size counterparts.
Whether or not there are merits to carrying full size over the compacts varies by task, model, shooter.
Sight radius is vastly overrated, and can be mitigated with smart sight selection.
A LE handgun is a fighting handgun. For a fighting handgun I want a full grip and a large magazine.
MountainRaven
10-14-18, 15:14
Also:
Walther P-38
Colt 1903
FN 1905
FN 1910
Savage 1907
You're right that from their inception until the last decade or two of the 20th Century, revolvers ruled the world
Revolvers didn't rule the world for most of the Twentieth Century, they ruled the United States. And to a lesser extent, the UK.
Europe and South America bought into semi-autos wholesale early on (prior to WWI in many instances - and almost universally after WWI). As did Japan and China.
In fact, it might even be more accurate to say that the revolver's last holdouts were in the US and UK pretty much from the end of WWII to the end of the Cold War, and that the auto starting taking over within the first decade or two of the Twentieth Century and had largely taken over the world by the time Hitler's freshly corpsified body was lit on fire.
A LE handgun is a fighting handgun. For a fighting handgun I want a full grip and a large magazine.
That's the rub... What does "full size grip" and "large magazine" mean? And does it mean the same thing for everyone?
Revolvers didn't rule the world for most of the Twentieth Century, they ruled the United States. And to a lesser extent, the UK.
Europe and South America bought into semi-autos wholesale early on (prior to WWI in many instances - and almost universally after WWI). As did Japan and China.
In fact, it might even be more accurate to say that the revolver's last holdouts were in the US and UK pretty much from the end of WWII to the end of the Cold War, and that the auto starting taking over within the first decade or two of the Twentieth Century and had largely taken over the world by the time Hitler's freshly corpsified body was lit on fire.
What the heck, revolvers were largely scrapped by the US military in 1911. It was civilian US shooters, and law enforcement that held on until the eighties. Now revolvers are the province of hunters, hand loaders, and certain specialized target shooters.
(N.B.: after 40 years of semi auto shooting, U.Vibe is just getting into revolvers. )
MountainRaven
10-14-18, 16:53
What the heck, revolvers were largely scrapped by the US military in 1911. It was civilian US shooters, and law enforcement that held on until the eighties. Now revolvers are the province of hunters, hand loaders, and certain specialized target shooters.
(N.B.: after 40 years of semi auto shooting, U.Vibe is just getting into revolvers. )
The UK military dropped revolvers after WWII, but their police kept them for quite a while (I don't think British police dropped revolvers until widespread adaptation of Glocks in the 90s). The US military also issued significant numbers of revolvers until at least the 1980s - the M1911 had only been adopted for six years when the US military starting buying new revolvers that stayed on until at least the end of WWII - plus a variety of revolvers in 38 Special that were in limited use through the Vietnam War and (in increasingly smaller numbers) into the 1980s and possibly even the 90s.
AFAIK, the last major institutional user of revolvers were the Norwegian Police Service, who dropped their S&W model 10s for H&K P30Ls late in the first decade or early in the second decade of this century.
It’s larger because typically concealment is not a factor. Therefore, a larger grip & greater capacity can generally be achieved.
Revolvers didn't rule the world for most of the Twentieth Century, they ruled the United States. And to a lesser extent, the UK.
Europe and South America bought into semi-autos wholesale early on (prior to WWI in many instances - and almost universally after WWI). As did Japan and China.
In fact, it might even be more accurate to say that the revolver's last holdouts were in the US and UK pretty much from the end of WWII to the end of the Cold War, and that the auto starting taking over within the first decade or two of the Twentieth Century and had largely taken over the world by the time Hitler's freshly corpsified body was lit on fire.
You're quite right, of course. In saying "revolvers ruled the world", I am guilty of speaking from strictly an American perspective.
In fact, the handgun that ruled the free world during the Cold War was the High Power.
Even just the little bit more grip makes it easier to grip, especially when the user may be wearing gloves as part of their uniform / professional setup.
There's a perception that full-size handguns generally seem to have less problems out-of-the-box than compacts/subcompacts.
Perhaps, but 6 shot .38s wth 4” barrels were in a lot of holsters for decades.
The cool kids carried 6 inch N-Frame Smiths.
Business_Casual
10-14-18, 19:15
Better to stick with "full size", "compact", "subcompact" and maybe "micro". It's as common to see G19s, 320 compacts, M&P 2.0 compacts, and P228/229 sized guns in "duty" applications as their full size counterparts.
Whether or not there are merits to carrying full size over the compacts varies by task, model, shooter.
Sight radius is vastly overrated, and can be mitigated with smart sight selection.
I think this is where this conversation should go - thinking about it from an application point of view. However, I’m still not convinced that full-size or duty have a precise application which is what I am trying to get at. Saying the grip is bigger or it doesn’t need to be concealed isn’t an argument. Not directed at you specifically, of course.
Saying the grip is bigger or it doesn’t need to be concealed isn’t an argument.
Then what is? Those are two important reasons why duty pistols are generally full size/bigger. Easier to shoot for most and concealment is a non-issue.
NYH1.
I think this is where this conversation should go - thinking about it from an application point of view. However, I’m still not convinced that full-size or duty have a precise application which is what I am trying to get at. Saying the grip is bigger or it doesn’t need to be concealed isn’t an argument. Not directed at you specifically, of course.
Why are duty pistols smaller than other pistols?
Just talking grip size- what is the tradeoff? I cant think of any detriments to a large grip in a duty holster.
A small grip can cause a few issues. Thats why standard sized guns are standard- its a good all-around size for most people.
Business_Casual
10-14-18, 21:04
Then what is? Those are two important reasons why duty pistols are generally full size/bigger. Easier to shoot for most and concealment is a non-issue.
NYH1.
That’s what I’m asking you. Not many tank designs included sloped armor until the T34-76 came out.
Is bigger better? If they (pistols) all shoot effective 9mm, why not a smaller, lighter platform?
That’s what I’m asking you. Not many tank designs included sloped armor until the T34-76 came out.
Is bigger better? If they (pistols) all shoot effective 9mm, why not a smaller, lighter platform?Military is no different. Majority hardly ever use handguns but I believe the smallest gun issued is a G19/228
Bigger guns are easier to shoot. They fit more people. I know I have a hard time with small guns and small grips.
How much weight is there? Cops aren't exactly humping 90lbs of gear where and extra 2oz make a world of difference. In fact the revolvers were heavier. A snub nose model 36 weighs as much as a G19.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
That’s what I’m asking you. Not many tank designs included sloped armor until the T34-76 came out.
Is bigger better? If they (pistols) all shoot effective 9mm, why not a smaller, lighter platform?
Because a larger and even a little heavier pistol is usually easier to shoot for most then smaller lighter pistols are. Of course there are exceptions.
I'm a Glock guy. I'll take a full size G17/22/31/34/35 over a compact G19/23/32 when concealability isn't an issue. I shoot the larger pistols better. I'll take a G19/23/32 over a G26/27/33 for the same reasons.
NYH1.
So I just realized that the whole time I'm thinking of G19/G17 sized guns in the same category. Meanwhile thinking compact as G26 size.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
The cool kids carried 6 inch N-Frame Smiths.
HAHAHAHA, my Chief was from an era/area that if you did not carry a Smith 25-5 .45 Long Colt....you were not SH__!
I am the person that orders guns for the dept.
We have slowly been transitioning from G21 to Glock 9mm.
While G17 is the main issued firearm, G19 is also purchased for those to be mainly in plain clothes or smaller in stature and they understand the difference.
I did buy one G26 for someone higher ranked than me... that wanted a small gun. I had to modify the duty holster as the G26 would not fit in a G19 duty holster. The dust cover area is beefier (Gen 4).
I did buy 3 extra G19 mags and spacers for the G26. No one else will get a G26 for duty carry. There is no duty rig specifically designed for G26.
Many years ago, we had a very small handed officer. Admin back then bought that officer a SW 3913. Oh.... it fit the hand all right but proficiency or lack there of was always an issue. This person left the agency and came back years later with the same smith. I informed their supervisor if a part breaks on that smith, might not find replacements. That officer was issued a dept G19.
Forgot to add, officers can carry personal weapons. They must be of quality manufacture, meet the list of approved firearms, fit in a commercially available level 3 retention holster, and meet certain safety criteria. Plus the have to show proficiency and qualify with it. Come to think of it, I am the only one carrying a 1911 and some one else carries a MP. The rest are dept issued for duty carry. Some officers use personal weapons for plain clothes carry which have to meet the same criteria but have to be in a level 1 retention holster.
Business_Casual
10-15-18, 05:37
So I just realized that the whole time I'm thinking of G19/G17 sized guns in the same category. Meanwhile thinking compact as G26 size.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Exactly!
I've always considered anything in G19 size to be full size. Just a little smaller than other full size guns. There's like half an inch barrel length difference between the 19 and 17. And just 0.59 of an inch difference in total length.
If G19 size guns are considered compact then there's a few departments around here that carry those. Philadelphia PD issues G17 but you can carry any Glock in any caliber provided you supply your own training ammo and buy approved carry ammo.
NJSP carry Sig 229. Although that defeats the purpose of weight saving.
A friend from high school works for a small department that issues G23.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I find it easier to fight with a full-sized grip (G17 sized) compared to anything smaller. I don't have the hugest hands, and I can certainly get my full hand on the grip. With a G19, my pinky runs in to the bottom of the grip.
IF my primary weapon is a pistol, I likely want something "full size" - like a P09 (10 rds), G17 (18 rds), Px4 (18 rds). But, in the military, the pistol is a secondary/tertiary thing - then I want a P07/G19 sized gun.
daddyusmaximus
10-15-18, 11:19
That's the rub... What does "full size grip" and "large magazine" mean? And does it mean the same thing for everyone?
Well it should...
Who would chose to have a gun where their pinkie can't fit on the grip if they didn't have to? A full size grip, give you a full grip on the gun. The only reason to chose a smaller gun is to conceal it better for daily carry. A duty gun does not require it to be hidden, so it can be full size. Same goes for ammo capacity. The only reason you would chose to go with less capacity, would be to lessen the size and weight of the gun... for "concealed" carry.
Some people, myself included, daily CC a "duty" size gun. I CC a Vickers edition Glock 17. (with a TLR1) Correct holster, correct clothing, correct IDGAF if it prints sometimes attitude... 99% of the people have no clue I'm armed, unless they know me. Then they know... I'm armed... always.
Well it should...
Who would chose to have a gun where their pinkie can't fit on the grip if they didn't have to? A full size grip, give you a full grip on the gun. The only reason to chose a smaller gun is to conceal it better for daily carry. A duty gun does not require it to be hidden, so it can be full size. Same goes for ammo capacity. The only reason you would chose to go with less capacity, would be to lessen the size and weight of the gun... for "concealed" carry.
Some people, myself included, daily CC a "duty" size gun. I CC a Vickers edition Glock 17. (with a TLR1) Correct holster, correct clothing, correct IDGAF if it prints sometimes attitude... 99% of the people have no clue I'm armed, unless they know me. Then they know... I'm armed... always.
I agree completely. I can throw a light t-shirt over a ALS/SLS Level III holster with a QLS on a Safariland paddle, and most people don't notice it. I usually use an ALS only version, or if circumstances dictate I must go IWB, a VG3.
I've always considered anything in G19 size to be full size. Just a little smaller than other full size guns. There's like half an inch barrel length difference between the 19 and 17. And just 0.59 of an inch difference in total length.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
With that thought process you could consider a G26 the same size as a G19. Just a little smaller than other compact size guns. There's like half an inch barrel length difference between the 26 and 19. And just 0.59 of an inch difference in total length.
There's a noticeable difference in how a full size and compact Glock handle for sure. As there's a noticeable difference in how compact and sub-compact Glocks handle as well.
NYH1.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-15-18, 15:06
I carry the largest pistol I can on duty because it's my primary weapon and does not require any concealment. Therefore, My G21 and G34 are "duty" pistols because for the most part they are too large for other purposes.
I carry a G19 and G43 off duty or in plain-clothes because they are more easily concealed.
A G19 can easily be a "duty pistol" but I prefer a full size frame and magazine for duty use.
With that thought process you could consider a G26 the same size as a G19. Just a little smaller than other compact size guns. There's like half an inch barrel length difference between the 26 and 19. And just 0.59 of an inch difference in total length.
There's a noticeable difference in how a full size and compact Glock handle for sure. As there's a noticeable difference in how compact and sub-compact Glocks handle as well.
NYH1.There's more difference between the 19/26 than there is between the 19/17
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-15-18, 16:47
Tangent. I spent years trying to find the "perfect" intermediate handgun. I am confident I owned more than 100 handguns since the early 90s. I ended up deciding that what I really needed was two guns. One, for everyday pocket carry, a gun I will have no matter what (A .38 J-Frame with laser grips). The other, a full sized combat autoloader (A Beretta 92 G-SD with X400).
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1921/45348003531_790e217319_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c6fnxR)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2c6fnxR) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Tangent. I spent years trying to find the "perfect" intermediate handgun. I am confident I owned more than 100 handguns since the early 90s. I ended up deciding that what I really needed was two guns. One, for everyday pocket carry, a gun I will have no matter what (A .38 J-Frame with laser grips). The other, a full sized combat autoloader (A Beretta 92 G-SD with X400).
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1921/45348003531_790e217319_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c6fnxR)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2c6fnxR) by stoiclawyer (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/), on Flickr
Do you even muzzle rise, bro? I bet that's a soft shooting setup!
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-16-18, 00:04
It’s ridiculous. I can ring steel plates and it sounds like hail on a metal roof.
I'm just guessing here but chances of a LEO to get into a gun fight is greater than for your avg person. If chances are greater then having more ammo is better. More ammo means bigger gun.
But again.... just a guess. Also they don't have to worry about concealing.
I'm sure there's a million reasons why. I have seen some departments issue G26/27 but I don't know if that's primary or backup
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
I think most shootings involve private citizens as is. Nix gun free zones and social stigmas and it would likely go much higher.
I think most shootings involve private citizens as is. Nix gun free zones and social stigmas and it would likely go much higher.Maybe as a group. As an individual an officer is the one responding to all bad calls
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Maybe as a group. As an individual an officer is the one responding to all bad calls
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Each officer doesn't respond to all bad calls either. Going to go out on a limb and say most bad calls have already affected a private citizen first and if that person hadn't been prevented from dealing with it by statute, rules, or social pressures then officers would have far less to respond to.
Going with standard size vs. mini being easier to shoot as the reason. Combination of sight distance, weight, and grip size, so long as the last 2 didn't get carried to goofy extremes. For the longest time, the average revolvers sights were a lot better than the typical auto pistol sights by being larger if for no other reason with a P38 being a notable exception.
That’s what I’m asking you. Not many tank designs included sloped armor until the T34-76 came out.
Is bigger better? If they (pistols) all shoot effective 9mm, why not a smaller, lighter platform?
There would seem to be numerous advantages to full-size guns, though as others have said they are not the best choice in all applications.
The full-size handgun can have a grip long enough for an adult male with even large or extra large hands to be able to quickly establish a full firing grip with all fingers of the drawing hand in solid contact with the gun. This may facilitate better speed and accuracy. Having a grip of such a length allows more onboard ammo than a shorter grip would, all other factors being equal, and reduces the likelihood of the hand interfering with a mag change done under stress.
With some loads, a barrel length of > 4" may give a greater likelihood of getting the desired terminal ballistic effect, and may reduce flash.
A longer sight radius may make the gun easier to shoot fast and accurately than a shorter sight radius, all other things being equal.
Greater weight of a full-sie gun compared to its compact brother may reduce recoil and muzzle flip, likewise making it easier to shoot accurately at speed.
The full-size gun may be more reliable, and may be more durable than the smaller versions of the same gun. As an example, guys like Hilton Yam and IIRC Larry Vickers say if you want the most reliable 1911, a full-size 5" gun is best. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that G17s, on average, experience fewer stoppages than G19s do.
Each officer doesn't respond to all bad calls either. Going to go out on a limb and say most bad calls have already affected a private citizen first and if that person hadn't been prevented from dealing with it by statute, rules, or social pressures then officers would have far less to respond to.
Going with standard size vs. mini being easier to shoot as the reason. Combination of sight distance, weight, and grip size, so long as the last 2 didn't get carried to goofy extremes. For the longest time, the average revolvers sights were a lot better than the typical auto pistol sights by being larger if for no other reason with a P38 being a notable exception.And that's one person having one bad incident.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
97% of the time I carry a full sized pistol. The rest of the time, it will be either a Glock 26 dropped in my right front pocket or a HKP7 .
I have never had a problem concealing a full sized pistol so I never saw the need to carry a smaller pistol. If I get in a fight I want the best tool with me possible.
There's more difference between the 19/26 than there is between the 19/17
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Yeah, you're right.
In my opinion there's a pretty noticeable difference between full size and compact Glocks. Probably because I much prefer the full size.
NYH1.
Well it should...
Who would chose to have a gun where their pinkie can't fit on the grip if they didn't have to? A full size grip, give you a full grip on the gun. The only reason to chose a smaller gun is to conceal it better for daily carry. A duty gun does not require it to be hidden, so it can be full size. Same goes for ammo capacity. The only reason you would chose to go with less capacity, would be to lessen the size and weight of the gun... for "concealed" carry.
If I have a size 12/XXL lean hand, but can still get it all comfortably on a G19, is it a “full size” or “duty pistol”? It holds 15 rounds. But even with a ten round magazine, or if I have a G30, they have as many rounds as an M&P full size 45. If I have a size 6/shmedium hand and can put it all on a Sig 239 or Shield, I have as many rounds as a 1911 gov/commander.
It’s about shooter and task more than anything.
97% of the time I carry a full sized pistol. The rest of the time, it will be either a Glock 26 dropped in my right front pocket or a HKP7 .
I have never had a problem concealing a full sized pistol so I never saw the need to carry a smaller pistol. If I get in a fight I want the best tool with me possible.
How big are your pockets?
I can fit both of those pistols in jeans or cargo pants.
Capacity is the answer.
Though in my agency we carry what would be considered a compact.
I can fit both of those pistols in jeans or cargo pants.
Do you wear JNCO jeans or something? :D
Do you wear JNCO jeans or something? :D
Don't even know what that means.
If I have a size 12/XXL lean hand, but can still get it all comfortably on a G19, is it a “full size” or “duty pistol”? It holds 15 rounds. But even with a ten round magazine, or if I have a G30, they have as many rounds as an M&P full size 45. If I have a size 6/shmedium hand and can put it all on a Sig 239 or Shield, I have as many rounds as a 1911 gov/commander.
It’s about shooter and task more than anything.
A G19 can be a duty pistol for sure. It can't be a full size pistol though.
NYH1.
Don't even know what that means.
Really baggy jeans from the 90's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JNCO
Not too awful pricey. I let my long-term foster kids each have one pair so they wouldn't feel too 'white bread' as they called it.
Nope, just wrangler jeans that fit me.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.