What the devil is this I hear about new 4473's?

[Spyw]

Well I'm relatively new here, so I suppose I should give a little background into my situation.

I'm 19 and I've already come to terms with the fact that I will be handgunless until I'm 21. I spent about a year working for an FFL, and I'm very familiar with the general practice of selling firearms and the entire 4473 form.

I've read that by Nov 15, the ATF will have issued updated 4473's with an "other" box which I'm guessing will go in the Long Gun/Handgun/Both box. Stripped weapon receivers will be reclassified as "other" weapons and therefore not be legal to transfer to persons under 21. Complete rifles are obviously unaffected and obviously still available to the same people they are now. My dilemma comes from the fact that I love to build these rifles, and hate the prospect of being forced to buy only complete rifles for the next 18 months. I know virtually everyone here will be unaffected by this and will probably be indifferent, but for me, it's very distressing.

Does anyone know anything about this? I know there are several current FFL's here that would know about this and could probably give us some insight.

[Robb Jensen]

http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308atf-important-ffl-notice.htm

[Iraqgunz]

gotm4,

Thanks for posting that. I was unaware that the 4473 was being changed. I still find it odd that an AR15 receiver
cannot be sold to someone under 21. Especially since it could be built into a pistol or rifle and because ammo
which can be used in a rifle or a handgun can be sold those under 21.

Out of curiousity I was at Wal-mart just before I headed back over and there was a sign posted stating the firearms could not be sold between the hours of 900 pm and 600 am due to federal law. Exactly what federal law are they referring to? Or is this just another arbitrary Wal-mart bullshit sign?

[Robb Jensen]

gotm4,

Thanks for posting that. I was unaware that the 4473 was being changed. I still find it odd that an AR15 receiver
cannot be sold to someone under 21. Especially since it could be built into a pistol or rifle and because ammo
which can be used in a rifle or a handgun can be sold those under 21.

Out of curiousity I was at Wal-mart just before I headed back over and there was a sign posted stating the firearms could not be sold between the hours of 900 pm and 600 am due to federal law. Exactly what federal law are they referring to? Or is this just another arbitrary Wal-mart bullshit sign?

Wal-Mart BS just like they won't sell you ammo and guns the same day. Even our Virginia State Police Transaction Center (who does the instant-checks) is open until 10pm. More reason to not buy at China-Mart and support you local gunstore.

I know of no law that says an 18yr old can't buy a stripped or complete AR lower. 21yrs of age would be required for handguns and NFA items. Handguns would be actual firing capable firearms. A stripped pistol frame that's commonly used to build handguns I would consider a handgun (like a Glock CCF frame, 1911 frame etc). This new form doesn't change current law it just clarifies some things.

Example: NFA dealers have to have a purchaser of a sound suppressor/silencer fill out a 4473 before taking it home. This is even after the approved Form 4 is received. An instant check isn't required but their is no box for NFA items, so 'other' will work for this.

[Iraqgunz]

Robb,

I assumed that this was more Wally world BS. I wasn't going to buy anything from them, I just happened to notice it when I was in the sporting goods area.
I almost wanted to buy something just to cause a stink and have them show where the federal law is. Especially because AZ residents with a valid CCW are not required to undergo a NICS check so there is no one for them to call.

As for the lower thing. Unless I misunderstood or misread the explanation in block 18 of the 4473 it says a frame or receiver for a firearm even one that can only be made into a long gun is a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle and may not be transferred to anyone under 21.


Wal-Mart BS just like they won't sell you ammo and guns the same day. Even our Virginia State Police Transaction Center (who does the instant-checks) is open until 10pm. More reason to not buy at China-Mart and support you local gunstore.

I know of no law that says an 18yr old can't buy a stripped or complete AR lower. 21yrs of age would be required for handguns and NFA items. Handguns would be actual firing capable firearms. A stripped pistol frame that's commonly used to build handguns I would consider a handgun (like a Glock CCF frame, 1911 frame etc). This new form doesn't change current law it just clarifies some things.

Example: NFA dealers have to have a purchaser of a sound suppressor/silencer fill out a 4473 before taking it home. This is even after the approved Form 4 is received. An instant check isn't required but their is no box for NFA items, so 'other' will work for this.

[Robb Jensen]

Robb,

I assumed that this was more Wally world BS. I wasn't going to buy anything from them, I just happened to notice it when I was in the sporting goods area.
I almost wanted to buy something just to cause a stink and have them show where the federal law is. Especially because AZ residents with a valid CCW are not required to undergo a NICS check so there is no one for them to call.

As for the lower thing. Unless I misunderstood or misread the explanation in block 18 of the 4473 it says a frame or receiver for a firearm even one that can only be made into a long gun is a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle and may not be transferred to anyone under 21.

I stand corrected.

I think they need to qualify which receivers can only be made into long guns? I know of no receiver that can't be made into a handgun. At our shop the way lower receivers are logged into the bound book is as stripped or complete rifle receivers. That way it shows consistency between the bound book and the 4473. When filling out the current 4473s for lowers we check long gun.
(This of course is unless a pistol AR receiver is sent as a pistol receiver, RRA and some other companies mark theirs as pistol).

[Iraqgunz]

That whole thing seemed odd to me as well and I have to wonder what their intent was. I think that the lower I picked up was also annotated as a long gun on the 4473 that I did recently as well. I wonder if they are wanting to keep track of those who are buying lowers, assembling them and then selling them as long guns??? Something just doesn't add up, but then again the .GOV is good at that.


I stand corrected.

I think they need to qualify which receivers can only be made into long guns? I know of no receiver that can't be made into a handgun. At our shop the way lower receivers are logged into the bound book is as stripped or complete rifle receivers. That way it shows consistency between the bound book and the 4473. When filling out the current 4473s for lowers we check long gun.
(This of course is unless a pistol AR receiver is sent as a pistol receiver, RRA and some other companies mark theirs as pistol).

[Spyw]

I like a couple of things in this Aug 2008 revision. Like putting an "-OR-" on Box 3, putting check boxes on 11 and 12, adding that bold text to 12, and making 13 into an actual box and not just a line.

That said, I have one question. Why the hell does 11.l still look like 11.1?!?!

Well, I guess I'm off to my favorite store tomorrow to see if I can get another lower before they start using these new forms. Other than that, I guess I'll have to convince my parents that they need some new guns.

Time for a beer. Wait...shit. >_<

[30 cal slut]

http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308atf-important-ffl-notice.htm

okay, i'm confused now.

i'm going to an out of state ffl to transfer some stripped AR lowers.

he's gonna check the "other" box ... can he still legally sell to me even though i'm not a resident of the state he's doing business in? (but i am over 21).

:confused:

[CleverNickname]

It's not that difficult to understand. Here's the relevant law:


(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;



(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
...
(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.


It's been illegal for an FFL to transfer a stripped lower to a 18-20 year old since this law was enacted as part of the Gun Control Act in 1968. It's just that a lot of FFLs don't know the law and think that as long as a gun isn't a pistol it's ok to transfer. But it's the other way around. An FFL transferring a firearm to an 18-20 yo is illegal unless it's a shotgun or rifle.

A stripped receiver is not a shotgun or rifle. Even a completely assembled receiver with a stock (but no barrel) is not a shotgun or rifle. Only a complete firearm can be a shotgun or rifle. Nothing's changed as far as the law, the ATF is just clarifying the instructions on the form 4473 itself.

[CleverNickname]

okay, i'm confused now.

i'm going to an out of state ffl to transfer some stripped AR lowers.

he's gonna check the "other" box ... can he still legally sell to me even though i'm not a resident of the state he's doing business in? (but i am over 21).

:confused:

No, he can't. It's not a shotgun or rifle.



(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
...
3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

[Renegade]

Does anyone know anything about this? I know there are several current FFL's here that would know about this and could probably give us some insight.

It has been this way since 1968. Apparently a lot of FFLs never got the memo, so they are upgrading the 4473 to make it more clear.

If you go back through the FFL Newsletters you will see this has been addressed in the past. FFLs can only sell a Rifle or Shotgun to someone under 21. That has always meant no NFA, no pistol-gripped only shotguns, no stripped lowers, etc.

[Robb Jensen]

The whole 'other' thing is confusing.

I know a dealer who recently sent in a Federal 3310, this a form which is required to be sent to ATF if a person buys more than 1 handgun within 5 business days of each other (from the same dealer).
This dealer sent it in because someone bought a Glock and a CCF frame at same time. ATF said it wasn't required because the frame wasn't a handgun......... To top it all off, it's marked as 2 handguns per VA state law on the SP-65 form. So basically there's a Federal definition and a State definition.

[KyAKGuy]

Well, I guess I'm off to my favorite store tomorrow to see if I can get another lower before they start using these new forms. Other than that, I guess I'll have to convince my parents that they need some new guns.

Time for a beer. Wait...shit. >_<

I was at a friends shop yesterday and we were discussing this also. He is already using the new 4473's and we discussed the receiver stuff along with the
out of state transfer of receivers being a no-no.

Be careful...
Just because you get one on the old form, doesn't make it legal.
As stated before, it'd been illegal to transfer them to persons
under 21 years of age since 1968. Since they are paying more
attention to it now, i'd be sure to do things by the book...

KyAKGuy

[Spyw]

Hmm...well I didn't realize it's always been illegal. I was under the impression that the ATF was redefining rifle receivers as "other than..." firearms.

Personally, I think we should do away with the whole ordeal...

[boltcatch]

Given the amount of stripped lowers flying off the shelves, I question the timing of this.

I picked one up today. Guy before me got 10, guy after me got 5. I only saw one dealer with a sign up about the under 21 thing, but some people who were looking to get lowers were turned away.