View Full Version : Decorated Vietnam Veteran, POW Sentenced To 7+ Years For ‘Mistake’ Made Decades Ago
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 06:01
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/10/17/decorated-vietnam-veteran-pow-sentenced-to-7-years-for-mistake-made-decades-ago/
This is a great example of why 922(o) needs to be repealed (and I have 2 transferable MGs currently pending on form 4s). BATFE really took a hardened criminal off the streets with this one, thank God, I can now sleep well knowing I don’t have to worry about this 70 year old Vietnam Veteran who likes to fly his plane on his free time. :rolleyes:
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-18-18, 06:51
Little fuzzy on how he knew is was FA? No serial number is a tough bit of info to get around. Did they only find the gun after the pot?
This has a Trump pardon written all over it...
Great example why actions, not things should be illegal (as a general rule).
So they raided his house because he was smoking weed with his wife who had cancer.
How did they find out about the weed?
Adrenaline_6
10-18-18, 07:25
I feel for the guy but there are a couple of things that need to be noted. He didn't just commit a crime 40 years ago, he knew it was illegal, so he willingly committed a crime every day he held on to that thing, knowing full well it was a huge no-no. The serial number was scratched off...come on. Should his sentence have been lighter? Yes, I think so, due to his history and non use of the firearm in general, but being a collector, he damn well knew better.
My POS brother-in-law is serving five years for killing a motorcyclist while he was drunk and driving. This guy gets 7 years for owning something that's illegal to posaess but was never used by him in the commission of a crime?
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 07:56
I feel for the guy but there are a couple of things that need to be noted. He didn't just commit a crime 40 years ago, he knew it was illegal, so he willingly committed a crime every day he held on to that thing, knowing full well it was a huge no-no. The serial number was scratched off...come on. Should his sentence have been lighter? Yes, I think so, due to his history and non use of the firearm in general, but being a collector, he damn well knew better.
I didn’t see any evidence he’d ever fired the weapon, I have no idea what a full auto M-14 vs. a semi auto M-14 looks
like. The impression I had was BATFE found out he had a medical
Marijuana card, knew he had firearms so he was raided and the full auto M-14 was found during that raid. This would have
Been a perfect case for jury nullification. All gun control is unconstitutional, this man harmed no one and didn’t appear to be a threat to anyone. It illustrates how unjust US gun control laws are.
My POS brother-in-law is serving five years for killing a motorcyclist while he was drunk and driving. This guy gets 7 years for owning something that's illegal to posaess but was never used by him in the commission of a crime?
... And Ted Kennedy killed a woman, never even stood trial, very unfair.
Adrenaline_6
10-18-18, 08:34
I didn’t see any evidence he’d ever fired the weapon, I have no idea what a full auto M-14 vs. a semi auto M-14 looks
like. The impression I had was BATFE found out he had a medical
Marijuana card, knew he had firearms so he was raided and the full auto M-14 was found during that raid. This would have
Been a perfect case for jury nullification. All gun control is unconstitutional, this man harmed no one and didn’t appear to be a threat to anyone. It illustrates how unjust US gun control laws are.
... And Ted Kennedy killed a woman, never even stood trial, very unfair.
Regardless, until we get those laws changed, we follow the laws or face the consequences. We can't just do what we individually think is just regardless of the law or there would be chaos. Do you own any formed SBR's? If so, you and everyone here who does, went through the proper hoops regardless of how just you/they thought the laws were because you/they know the consequences of not doing so. This guy should have done the same. He knew...no excuses. Does it suck? Yes...absolutely.
Averageman
10-18-18, 08:41
I didn’t see any evidence he’d ever fired the weapon, I have no idea what a full auto M-14 vs. a semi auto M-14 looks
like. The impression I had was BATFE found out he had a medical
Marijuana card, knew he had firearms so he was raided and the full auto M-14 was found during that raid. This would have
Been a perfect case for jury nullification. All gun control is unconstitutional, this man harmed no one and didn’t appear to be a threat to anyone. It illustrates how unjust US gun control laws are.
He's a victim of his own mistakes;
Buying a firearm with the serial numbers scratched out, owning a full auto M14 without the proper paperwork? If he didn't know better, I would be very surprised.
I would agree with you that all Gun Control is unjust, however if there are unjust Laws how do you fight them? This just looks like a very bad way to go about that.
I don't think the BATFE had anything to do with putting two and two together on this case, it's much more likely someone ratted him out.
I didn’t see any evidence he’d ever fired the weapon, I have no idea what a full auto M-14 vs. a semi auto M-14 looks
like. The impression I had was BATFE found out he had a medical
Marijuana card, knew he had firearms so he was raided and the full auto M-14 was found during that raid. This would have
Been a perfect case for jury nullification. All gun control is unconstitutional, this man harmed no one and didn’t appear to be a threat to anyone. It illustrates how unjust US gun control laws are.
... And Ted Kennedy killed a woman, never even stood trial, very unfair.
There's only one problem with the medical marijuana card theory. This gentleman resides in Texas, and the only way to get medical marijuana in Texas is if a person has "intractable epilepsy". This gentleman also held a pilots license which he would not qualify for if he were an epileptic. The more likely scenario is that a "friend" that he showed the rifle to talked either directly or indirectly with the authorities.
Frankly, I don't have any sympathy for him because: A) he was in possession of a firearm which was probably stolen from the U.S. Military, B) the serial number was ground off the weapon - because it was stolen, C) the weapon was not registered as it should have been - again because it was stolen. Why should this guy get a pass just because of his prior service? It is because of his prior service that he had to know that the rifle was probably stolen from the military in the first place.
I bet there are several members of this forum who are prior service and then went through all of the necessary steps to purchase a full auto weapon legally. Why should this guy get a pass just because of his service and because he didn't use it to commit a crime?
I agree that the sentence is excessively harsh, and I would very much like to live in a world were this wouldnt be any sort of an issue. But he knew and as far as Ive ever known any actual govt M14 receiver falls under NFA no matter if the auto selector lug was demilled or not (typically done on NM guns). Scratching the serial number on such a thing is totally pointless, its bad ju ju with the serial or not.
Interestingly many years ago, when the M14 still held sway over at Camp Perry. The Gov't, through the DCM/CMP loaned out real deal NM M14s to various state rifle associations for use by junior competitor's (to whom a competitive M14 type service rifle was usually too expensive). A great many of these rifles "vanished" over the years through the loose controls placed over them and no serious effort was ever extended to round them up, that I ever heard of.
I hope none of those rifles leeds to something like this, because govt organizational half assery pretty much just tossed them out into the wild with a wink and said "These are for the kiddos, have fun!"
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I feel for the guy but there are a couple of things that need to be noted. He didn't just commit a crime 40 years ago, he knew it was illegal, so he willingly committed a crime every day he held on to that thing, knowing full well it was a huge no-no. The serial number was scratched off...come on. Should his sentence have been lighter? Yes, I think so, due to his history and non use of the firearm in general, but being a collector, he damn well knew better.
Screw that noise^! Supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution. 2A is very clear. The unconstitutional "laws" that he broke are retarded and no one should be following them in the first place.
What harm did he cause? Where is the harm in owning a FA firearm, in scratching some numbers? It's pathetic that these trivial bullshit things can ruin your life and net you 7 years in jail. It's unacceptable. Especially when real criminals get wrist slapped and sent back out to do more crime that actually hurts people and society as a whole.
We are a nation of too many laws that do nothing but hurt innocent people and too few actual criminals paying for their crimes.
The real crime is the unconstitutional laws, the real travesty is the complacency of the populace in following such retarded bullshit ****ing laws.
Averageman
10-18-18, 09:48
Screw that noise^! Supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution. 2A is very clear. The unconstitutional "laws" that he broke are retarded and no one should be following them in the first place.
What harm did he cause? Where is the harm in owning a FA firearm, in scratching some numbers? It's pathetic that these trivial bullshit things can ruin your life and net you 7 years in jail. It's unacceptable. Especially when real criminals get wrist slapped and sent back out to do more crime that actually hurts people and society as a whole.
We are a nation of too many laws that do nothing but hurt innocent people and too few actual criminals paying for their crimes.
The real crime is the unconstitutional laws, the real travesty is the complacency of the populace in following such retarded bullshit ****ing laws.
And no matter how many times we try to explain this, fight it in Courts and send money to the NRA, it's not going to change because people of voting age are more concerned about their fears than their rights or our Constitution.
If you attempt to explain this to someone, even someone who you would consider intelligent and conservative, they will ask you "Why do you NEED a Machinegun?"
That's not the intent of the Second Amendment, but it is the reality we live in.
I'm curious which one of his "Friends" got caught in a bind and turned him in?
Victimless crime....
All FA and NFA laws only effect the law abiding.
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If gun guys were as tenacious as the stupid stoners are, we'd have the NFA dismantled.
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 10:10
Screw that noise^! Supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution. 2A is very clear. The unconstitutional "laws" that he broke are retarded and no one should be following them in the first place.
What harm did he cause? Where is the harm in owning a FA firearm, in scratching some numbers? It's pathetic that these trivial bullshit things can ruin your life and net you 7 years in jail. It's unacceptable. Especially when real criminals get wrist slapped and sent back out to do more crime that actually hurts people and society as a whole.
We are a nation of too many laws that do nothing but hurt innocent people and too few actual criminals paying for their crimes.
The real crime is the unconstitutional laws, the real travesty is the complacency of the populace in following such retarded bullshit ****ing laws.
Someone that gets it! IMO this case is a great example to all the like warm conservatives and moderates out there. We have an example of a man who served his country with honor, has never been in trouble and is given 7 years because of the unconstitutional nonsensical gun control laws we have. The man is 70 years of age and is given 7 years? As others have pointed out, people get way more time for crimes with actual victims. Why were my tax dollars spent to ruin this man’s life?
Someone that gets it! IMO this case is a great example to all the like warm conservatives and moderates out there. We have an example of a man who served his country with honor, has never been in trouble and is given 7 years because of the unconstitutional nonsensical gun control laws we have. The man is 70 years of age and is given 7 years? As others have pointed out, people get way more time for crimes with actual victims. Why were my tax dollars spent to ruin this man’s life?
The man was most likely in possession of a stolen firearm. Why else would the serial number be ground off? Last I checked the possession of a stolen firearm and possession of a firearm with a ground off serial number are both felony offenses. The fact that the weapon was F.A. is insulary in my opinion.
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 10:17
If gun guys were as tenacious as the stupid stoners are, we'd have the NFA dismantled.
It’s disheartening to see us as gun owners eating our own, throwing each other under the bus. While I abide by NFA and 922(o), I know them to be unconstitutional and thus do not support the injustice done to this man.
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 10:21
The man was most likely in possession of a stolen firearm. Why else would the serial number be ground off? Last I checked the possession of a stolen firearm and possession of a firearm with a ground off serial number are both felony offenses. The fact that the weapon was F.A. is insulary in my opinion.
I disagree, I think his prison cell would be better filled with Eric Holder for the Fast and Furious scandal.
RetroRevolver77
10-18-18, 10:33
deleted
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 11:10
So the NFA is part of the 2nd Amendment? The founding fathers didn't think the people should be as well armed as any other military given the people were the military at the time? However now that the government controls the military, the citizenry shouldn't be armed? Kind of goes against exactly what the 2nd Amendment was created for. I hope he takes the case all the way to the Supreme Court.
With Kavanaugh on SCOTUS, I like the odds... However, I think it would be wise to wait for Ginsburg to kick the bucket and Trump appoint her replacement before a blockbuster 2a case (like NFA/Hughes amendment) is challenged.
The man was most likely in possession of a stolen firearm.
This.
Not Guilty for unregistered gun, Not Guilty for possession of MJ, but if he knowingly bought a stolen gun, well I hate thieves, so **** him.
I'm not sure what the founding fathers would think about the 2nd and the issues of today.
Personally, I could really give two shakes about someone with a machine gun, but I hesitate at any Tom Dick or Harry being able to possess ANY weapon they can afford. George Soros is a U.S. Citizen, would you feel comfortable with him owning a fleet of, say, nuke capable A-6's and a couple of tactical nukes?
As to the case in hand, what was the minimum sentence? As near as I can tell:
POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION BY A PROHIBITED PERSON: 18 USC § 922(g) & (n). Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment. Key element: Drug user or addict - (Often shown where paraphernalia seized, subject tests positive for drugs and/or subject claims drugs were possessed for personal use.);
or
USE, CARRY OR POSSESS A FIREARM IN RELATION TO OR IN FURTHERANCE OF A DRUG FELONY OR A FEDERAL CRIME OF VIOLENCE: 18 USC § 924(c). Punishment ranges from at least 5 years up to life imprisonment.
This is what I'm upset about. Why? Because the cost to cover the average cost of incarceration for Federal inmates in Fiscal Year 2014 was $30,619.85 ($83.89 per day). (Please note: There were 365 days in FY 2014.) The average annual cost to confine an inmate in a Residential Re-entry Center for Fiscal Year 2014 was $28,999.25 ($79.45 per day)
This means we are going to bear a cost of over $210,000.00 to punish this 70 year-old guy for possessing, not using, a stolen, illegal machine gun and smoking dope.
Bullshit, fine the piss out of him, seize the weapon, make him get rid of the others in his collection since he is now a prohibited person, and get on with life.
According to the United States Sentencing Commission, right at 15% of the folks in prison are there because of firearms mandatory minimum sentencing. This is a good thing when it is used to target violent offenders, but this guy is far from a violent offender.
Also, for the person wondering who ratted him out - my guess is someone involved in this case: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2010/12/14/airparkcomp.pdf
I'm not sure what the founding fathers would think about the 2nd and the issues of today.
Personally, I could really give two shakes about someone with a machine gun, but I hesitate at any Tom Dick or Harry being able to possess ANY weapon they can afford. George Soros is a U.S. Citizen, would you feel comfortable with him owning a fleet of, say, nuke capable A-6's and a couple of tactical nukes?
As to the case in hand, what was the minimum sentence? As near as I can tell:
POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION BY A PROHIBITED PERSON: 18 USC § 922(g) & (n). Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment. Key element: Drug user or addict - (Often shown where paraphernalia seized, subject tests positive for drugs and/or subject claims drugs were possessed for personal use.);
or
USE, CARRY OR POSSESS A FIREARM IN RELATION TO OR IN FURTHERANCE OF A DRUG FELONY OR A FEDERAL CRIME OF VIOLENCE: 18 USC § 924(c). Punishment ranges from at least 5 years up to life imprisonment.
This is what I'm upset about. Why? Because the cost to cover the average cost of incarceration for Federal inmates in Fiscal Year 2014 was $30,619.85 ($83.89 per day). (Please note: There were 365 days in FY 2014.) The average annual cost to confine an inmate in a Residential Re-entry Center for Fiscal Year 2014 was $28,999.25 ($79.45 per day)
This means we are going to bear a cost of over $210,000.00 to punish this 70 year-old guy for possessing, not using, a stolen, illegal machine gun and smoking dope.
Bullshit, fine the piss out of him, seize the weapon, make him get rid of the others in his collection since he is now a prohibited person, and get on with life.
According to the United States Sentencing Commission, right at 15% of the folks in prison are there because of firearms mandatory minimum sentencing. This is a good thing when it is used to target violent offenders, but this guy is far from a violent offender.
Also, for the person wondering who ratted him out - my guess is someone involved in this case: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2010/12/14/airparkcomp.pdf
I agree the guy broke the law and put his balls in the hands of the govt, but the laws need reformed.
Constitutionally, nukes should be allowed. We have a system in place to deal with stuff like that - amendments.
In my opinion, we need to Amend the constitution to restrict stuff, be it Nukes, chemical weapons, or DD/Machineguns.
They system was designed to be difficult to take rights away on purpose - not bypassed and unconstitutional laws passed because someone says its a popular opinion.
I agree the guy broke the law and put his balls in the hands of the govt, but the laws need reformed.
Constitutionally, nukes should be allowed. We have a system in place to deal with stuff like that - amendments.
In my opinion, we need to Amend the constitution to restrict stuff, be it Nukes, chemical weapons, or DD/Machineguns.
They system was designed to be difficult to take rights away on purpose - not bypassed and unconstitutional laws passed because someone says its a popular opinion.
I understand what you are saying, but what are the realistic chances of getting a Constitutional Amendment for anything in today's political climate?
AFAIC, the Citizens United decision pretty much eliminated any chance of our running like it was intended.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-18-18, 12:46
I'm not sure what the founding fathers would think about the 2nd and the issues of today.
Considering they waged war and overthrew a tyrannical govt and formed a new country, I'd say they'd be pretty frickin' disgusted by how we've let the govt put a choke hold on us in more ways than just the 2A is concerned.
PatrioticDisorder
10-18-18, 13:16
Considering they waged war and overthrew a tyrannical govt and formed a new country, I'd say they'd be pretty frickin' disgusted by how we've let the govt put a choke hold on us in more ways than just the 2A is concerned.
The anti federalists would be saying, “see, I told you so” and the federalists would be saying, “you anti federalists were correct.”
I may not agree with our current NFA laws, but it’s hard for me to be sympathetic when he knowingly possessed an illegal, and most likely stolen, weapon. He played the game and got caught. Now does the punishment fit the crime? I don’t think so.
Swing and a miss ATF.
But hey someone probably got their 14 or 15 out of it
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Moose-Knuckle
10-18-18, 14:31
This story reminds me of the old adage; All because something is legal does not make it right and all because something is illegal does not make it wrong.
From the linked article:
The 70-year-old Vietnam veteran even served as the president of his homeowners association. Thus, when the ATF raided his home last year it came as a shock to friends like Mark Shackelford.
Shackelford learned later that authorities were looking for and seized an M14 rifle that Pick had bought at a Fort Worth gun show in the early eighties.
The raid and arrest on Pick’s Plano home came two weeks after his wife of 40 years died of cancer. They were using marijuana, which authorities found and added another criminal charge.
So BATFE raids his home for an unregistered MG that he bought almost forty years ago? While executing their search warrant they happen upon his marijuana that he had for his recently deceased wife who was battling cancer so they tack on a possession charge.
IMHO I think the only thing this guy did wrong was show off his collection, he bragged to someone about his unregistered M14 otherwise how would said person know it was full-auto and it's serial number scratched out?
As a taxpayer I would feel a lot better if the BATFE focused their efforts on actual criminal elements that they know to be armed; MS-13, jihadist enclaves, etc. rather than a widower senior citizen who received a Silver Star.
A M14 bought at an 80's Texas gun show covers a lot of territory. Question I have was it a functional FA or one of the reweld semi's that were around back then that were legal then illegal.
A M14 bought at an 80's Texas gun show covers a lot of territory. Question I have was it a functional FA or one of the reweld semi's that were around back then that were legal then illegal.
Legit question. Serial number ground off makes an eyebrow raise but it could be what you suggest.
To the guy who was all "law and order uber alles" and mentioned it was illegal, have to obey the law, etc. True dat. However…..what about some future time when the libtards have their way and a new AWB is put into place? Register, surrender, or be felon. What then? Still feel the same way? Yeah, the 1934 NFA was long in effect when this guy supposedly bought this weapon, but how about if you were made into a criminal with the wave of a pen?
Moose-Knuckle
10-18-18, 18:56
To the guy who was all "law and order uber alles" and mentioned it was illegal, have to obey the law, etc. True dat. However…..what about some future time when the libtards have their way and a new AWB is put into place? Register, surrender, or be felon. What then? Still feel the same way? Yeah, the 1934 NFA was long in effect when this guy supposedly bought this weapon, but how about if you were made into a criminal with the wave of a pen?
Excellent point.
We could all be this guy one day.
Legit question. Serial number ground off makes an eyebrow raise but it could be what you suggest.
To the guy who was all "law and order uber alles" and mentioned it was illegal, have to obey the law, etc. True dat. However…..what about some future time when the libtards have their way and a new AWB is put into place? Register, surrender, or be felon. What then? Still feel the same way? Yeah, the 1934 NFA was long in effect when this guy supposedly bought this weapon, but how about if you were made into a criminal with the wave of a pen?
Well, I know what I would do. I would go dump all mine in the lake and no one would ever see them again. Ever...
A M14 bought at an 80's Texas gun show covers a lot of territory. Question I have was it a functional FA or one of the reweld semi's that were around back then that were legal then illegal.
What is a rewelded semi that was legal then illegal?
If the gun was non-functional (and thus not a gun at all), why would he plead guilty? Who wouldn't his attorney be point out it was a non-functional gun? Instead they are admitting it was a F/A but it was a "single" mistake 40 years ago?
I understand what you are saying, but what are the realistic chances of getting a Constitutional Amendment for anything in today's political climate?
AFAIC, the Citizens United decision pretty much eliminated any chance of our running like it was intended.
You have doubts an amendment to ban nuclear weapons from individuals would pass?
RetroRevolver77
10-18-18, 20:04
deleted
Do we even know if it's a functional full auto and not a re-weld semi? Maybe he doesn't know the difference.
The defendant doesn't know if he bought a F/A or a S/A? Even though he was issued a F/A when in Service? What next he does not know it had an obliterated SN either?
MorphCross
10-18-18, 21:39
Congratulations BATF! You managed to take down a real hard pipe hitting MFer on this one!
For those in the AK collecting and building world, I would bet money there are more 922(r) violations than you could ever imagine, and would make criminals out of many thousands of otherwise law abiding Americans just because of US Made parts counts. In that world, it's done intentionally with a wink and nod, and you just don't discuss it openly.
With the numbers of AK, AR and HK "pistols" or semi-auto PDW's out there, I would guess there are a large number of SBR violations by the installation of forward grips and folding stocks (not the arm brace). Back in early '90s I remember seeing and HK SP89 with a forward grip and side folding stock, and no tax stamp. Clearly an NFA violation, but the owner didn't seem to care nor did I.
The jails haven't been built to house all of these yet to be discovered criminals.
The defendant doesn't know if he bought a F/A or a S/A? Even though he was issued a F/A when in Service? What next he does not know it had an obliterated SN either?
A lot of M14's, maybe most, were issued from the arms room with a selector lock in place. You had to drive a pin out to remove the selector lock and relace it with a selector switch. The selector switches were kept separate from the rifles, usually in a safe.
So it is entirely possible that Alfred Pick 1) only carried an M14 with a selector lock in place so was not aware that all were capable of full auto; 2) and the M14 he illegally possessed had the selector lock in place - just the same as the one he carried - which was semi-auto and therefore he thought his was legal.
Doubtful, but possible.
MountainRaven
10-18-18, 23:22
For those in the AK collecting and building world, I would bet money there are more 922(r) violations than you could ever imagine, and would make criminals out of many thousands of otherwise law abiding Americans just because of US Made parts counts. In that world, it's done intentionally with a wink and nod, and you just don't discuss it openly.
With the numbers of AK, AR and HK "pistols" or semi-auto PDW's out there, I would guess there are a large number of SBR violations by the installation of forward grips and folding stocks (not the arm brace). Back in early '90s I remember seeing and HK SP89 with a forward grip and side folding stock, and no tax stamp. Clearly an NFA violation, but the owner didn't seem to care nor did I.
The jails haven't been built to house all of these yet to be discovered criminals.
Remember when guys were standing outside recruiting offices to guard them from Islamic Militants? One of the shorts-wearing, t-shirt-clad, no-belt, Uncle Mike's nylon "holster", socks-with-sandals dudes had an extremely short-barreled AR pistol with a vertical foregrip on it. You reckon he went to prison? Or even got a visit from the BAT(FE)men? His photograph with his (probably) unregistered AOW was in the news from coast-to-coast.
Need a LOT more information on this one, for example why wasn't the "dealer" arrested for selling an unregistered machine gun if that is what actually happened.
Also did this guy "knowingly" buy an unregistered machine gun? Might be naive but generally you assume everything sold at a gun show is legal. Was a 4473 submitted and approved? If yes, then what is the issue, if no then why not?
Being a "vet" hardly makes anyone a gun expert. I've met plenty of guys who told me they remember having "Bushmaster" M-16s in nam and will swear they are positive because it had the same snake on it. I've stopped trying to even correct them.
If this guy knowingly bought a shady M14 then it finally came home to bite him on the ass. Does he deserve 7 years? Did they take his service into account during sentencing? Is it smart to smoke weed and be a gun owner? Well let's just say I've seen people get jammed up worse for less.
If it was just going to be a wall hanger, he'd have been wise to invest in an M1A, but given the "weed plus guns" issue he might still be in deep doo doo.
Either way, his life was hard and it just got harder.
What is a rewelded semi that was legal then illegal?
If the gun was non-functional (and thus not a gun at all), why would he plead guilty? Who wouldn't his attorney be point out it was a non-functional gun? Instead they are admitting it was a F/A but it was a "single" mistake 40 years ago?
MKS did some receivers years ago (rewelds) that were ultimately ruled illegal by ATF and they actually got the sales lists from MKS and went to people's houses on the list to confiscate them.
Need a LOT more information on this one, for example why wasn't the "dealer" arrested for selling an unregistered machine gun if that is what actually happened.
Also did this guy "knowingly" buy an unregistered machine gun? Might be naive but generally you assume everything sold at a gun show is legal. Was a 4473 submitted and approved? If yes, then what is the issue, if no then why not?
Being a "vet" hardly makes anyone a gun expert. I've met plenty of guys who told me they remember having "Bushmaster" M-16s in nam and will swear they are positive because it had the same snake on it. I've stopped trying to even correct them.
If this guy knowingly bought a shady M14 then it finally came home to bite him on the ass. Does he deserve 7 years? Did they take his service into account during sentencing? Is it smart to smoke weed and be a gun owner? Well let's just say I've seen people get jammed up worse for less.
If it was just going to be a wall hanger, he'd have been wise to invest in an M1A, but given the "weed plus guns" issue he might still be in deep doo doo.
Either way, his life was hard and it just got harder.
My understanding is that the search was for the M14, not the weed. i.e. the weed was incidental to the search. If that is the case I'd throw out the weed charge simply because the 4th Amendment states:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
It does NOT authorize a fishing expedition for anything, only what is on the warrant. Yeah, I know it's done all the time but it isn't right.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-19-18, 07:35
Legit question. Serial number ground off makes an eyebrow raise but it could be what you suggest.
To the guy who was all "law and order uber alles" and mentioned it was illegal, have to obey the law, etc. True dat. However…..what about some future time when the libtards have their way and a new AWB is put into place? Register, surrender, or be felon. What then? Still feel the same way? Yeah, the 1934 NFA was long in effect when this guy supposedly bought this weapon, but how about if you were made into a criminal with the wave of a pen?
Exactly. The only issue I have with any of it was the removed serial number which *usually* indicates a firearm has been stolen. Zulu Foxtrot Golf that it was full auto. The "he committed a crime knowingly every day he owned it" is laughable. How many of these people followed the 94 AWB to the letter?
Adrenaline_6
10-19-18, 07:40
Exactly. The only issue I have with any of it was the removed serial number which *usually* indicates a firearm has been stolen. Zulu Foxtrot Golf that it was full auto. The "he committed a crime knowingly every day he owned it" is laughable. How many of these people followed the 94 AWB to the letter?
I bet most do. If he knew about the illegality of the weapon and he probably did due to the "SCRATCHED OUT SERIAL NUMBER" (duh). He continued to break the law every day he kept it..and I doubt if he is laughing right now.
Stolen, really this is an issue with many of you? If a few more of the 750,000 M14's that Clinton had fed into Capt. Crunch had made it out the back door I wouldn't be crying crocodile tears. IIRC Clinton was paying a contractor $3.86 or so to chop up each M1 Garand and M14 until a class action lawsuit stopped the destruction of M1 Garands.
Your tax dollars at work
The demil process kicked into high gear after the August 1993 start-up. In a March 1994 interview, spokesman Larry Wilson said that "Captain Crunch" had ground up 307,000 firearms at a cost of a little more than $1,000,000.
Wilson gave a break-down of the guns destroyed as of March 1994 as follows: .45 caliber automatic pistols (110,000), M-14 rifles (50,000), M1 carbines (45,000), M1903A3 drill rifles (40,000), M1 Garands (30,000), M3 .45 "grease guns" (20,000), M1903 Springfields (6,000), and M12 .22 caliber target rifles (6,000). Wilson calculated it had cost $3.52 to destroy each weapon and the Material Command was destroying 3,000 guns per day.
...
Employees stated that the condition of the weapons ranged from "unserviceable" to "brand new" unissued condition. They further stated that many were wrapped in cosmoline and the wrapping had to be stripped off for the demil process to begin.
It was told to the author that in March 1994 some 6,000 M1D sniper rifles and approximately 500 M1C sniper rifles were demilled at the Depot. These historical guns were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was also related that some Winchester "Educational Contract" M1 Garand rifles were destroyed in the demil.
Other weapons destroyed in the Anniston demil include an entire crate of Model 92 rifles. Unissued International Harvester M1 Garands were being stripped and the receivers and barrels destroyed. Crates of M5A1 bayonets and M1917 Enfield bayonets were destroyed. Priceless artifacts have gone into the hopper of "Captain Crunch".
One individual involved in the demil process advised the author that he personally broke down three crates of M-14 rifles in late February 1995 to ship the parts to the DCM for resale. He further advised that the demil process was still ongoing with M-1 carbines, M-14's, .45 automatics, and .38 Colt revolvers being destroyed. He advised that a class-action lawsuit had been filed to halt destruction of the M-1 Garands and only the destruction of M1 Garands had been terminated pending the outcome of the suit.
A lot of M14's, maybe most, were issued from the arms room with a selector lock in place. You had to drive a pin out to remove the selector lock and relace it with a selector switch. The selector switches were kept separate from the rifles, usually in a safe.
So it is entirely possible that Alfred Pick 1) only carried an M14 with a selector lock in place so was not aware that all were capable of full auto; 2) and the M14 he illegally possessed had the selector lock in place - just the same as the one he carried - which was semi-auto and therefore he thought his was legal.
Doubtful, but possible.I had friends in the late 70s early 80s issued CMP m14s setup exactly that way.
A lot of M14's, maybe most, were issued from the arms room with a selector lock in place. You had to drive a pin out to remove the selector lock and relace it with a selector switch. The selector switches were kept separate from the rifles, usually in a safe.
So it is entirely possible that Alfred Pick 1) only carried an M14 with a selector lock in place so was not aware that all were capable of full auto; 2) and the M14 he illegally possessed had the selector lock in place - just the same as the one he carried - which was semi-auto and therefore he thought his was legal.
Doubtful, but possible.
Was it SOP to issue M14s to soldiers with SNs ground off?
I will go with Occam's Razor.
Need a LOT more information on this one, for example why wasn't the "dealer" arrested for selling an unregistered machine gun if that is what actually happened.
Uh, it was 40 years ago and they do not know who it was? Is there any evidence it was F/A when sold?
MKS did some receivers years ago (rewelds) that were ultimately ruled illegal by ATF and they actually got the sales lists from MKS and went to people's houses on the list to confiscate them.
Like when a factory F/A receiver is demilled and put back together as a F/A (pre-86) or S/A?
thx was unaware of that.
This gun was 40 years ago so it was probably not one of those.
Moose-Knuckle
10-19-18, 12:52
Stolen, really this is an issue with many of you? If a few more of the 750,000 M14's that Clinton had fed into Capt. Crunch had made it out the back door I wouldn't be crying crocodile tears. IIRC Clinton was paying a contractor $3.86 or so to chop up each M1 Garand and M14 until a class action lawsuit stopped the destruction of M1 Garands.
Your tax dollars at work
The demil process kicked into high gear after the August 1993 start-up. In a March 1994 interview, spokesman Larry Wilson said that "Captain Crunch" had ground up 307,000 firearms at a cost of a little more than $1,000,000.
Wilson gave a break-down of the guns destroyed as of March 1994 as follows: .45 caliber automatic pistols (110,000), M-14 rifles (50,000), M1 carbines (45,000), M1903A3 drill rifles (40,000), M1 Garands (30,000), M3 .45 "grease guns" (20,000), M1903 Springfields (6,000), and M12 .22 caliber target rifles (6,000). Wilson calculated it had cost $3.52 to destroy each weapon and the Material Command was destroying 3,000 guns per day.
...
Employees stated that the condition of the weapons ranged from "unserviceable" to "brand new" unissued condition. They further stated that many were wrapped in cosmoline and the wrapping had to be stripped off for the demil process to begin.
It was told to the author that in March 1994 some 6,000 M1D sniper rifles and approximately 500 M1C sniper rifles were demilled at the Depot. These historical guns were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was also related that some Winchester "Educational Contract" M1 Garand rifles were destroyed in the demil.
Other weapons destroyed in the Anniston demil include an entire crate of Model 92 rifles. Unissued International Harvester M1 Garands were being stripped and the receivers and barrels destroyed. Crates of M5A1 bayonets and M1917 Enfield bayonets were destroyed. Priceless artifacts have gone into the hopper of "Captain Crunch".
One individual involved in the demil process
advised the author that he personally broke down three crates of M-14 rifles in late February 1995 to ship the parts to the DCM for resale. He further advised that the demil process was still ongoing with M-1 carbines, M-14's, .45 automatics, and .38 Colt revolvers being destroyed. He advised that a class-action lawsuit had been filed to halt destruction of the M-1 Garands and only the destruction of M1 Garands had been terminated pending the outcome of the suit.
Disturbing but educational. I think I could hear angels weeping as I read it.
Uh, it was 40 years ago and they do not know who it was? Is there any evidence it was F/A when sold?
I don't think we have a lot of details on any part of this story.
Uh, it was 40 years ago and they do not know who it was? Is there any evidence it was F/A when sold?
If the selector nub and bottom dismount cut were intact then it was the ATF's "once a machine gun always a machine gun" rule applying.
To elaborate, the "nub" (for lack of a better term) hangs down on the right side of an M14 receiver; semi-auto receivers do not have that. It is where the selector inserts as well as the connector arm. Also, the bottom dismount cut allowed the op-rod to be removed by popping the lug out on the bottom side of the op-rod track as opposed to the top dismount notch found on semi-auto receivers.
A company called Hahn did some re-weld receivers that meet criteria; they are few and far between and fetch a premium price. Hahn cut off the "nub" and welded the bottom dismount notch closed (I guess making the op-rod pop out from the top of the op-rod track like all semi receivers do).
I don't think we have a lot of details on any part of this story.
It is a local story to me, so I have most of the details. What else would you like to know? He was a World Class douchebag.
It is a local story to me, so I have most of the details. What else would you like to know? He was a World Class douchebag.
Care to elaborate? Seriously.
Care to elaborate? Seriously.
Abused his daughter
Took porn pix of daughter
at least 2 known 911 calls for parking lots wrt road rage involving guns
multiple criminal trespass complaints for douchbaggery
threatened judge
threatened to fly explosive plane into ATF federal building
made las vegas shooter like threats to the court
no family members appeared as character witnesses
in addition to illegal gun, cocaine, MJ in his house.
held without bail for all above reasons
Abused his daughter
Took porn pix of daughter
at least 2 known 911 calls for parking lots wrt road rage involving guns
multiple criminal trespass complaints for douchbaggery
threatened judge
threatened to fly explosive plane into ATF federal building
made las vegas shooter like threats to the court
no family members appeared as character witnesses
in addition to illegal gun, cocaine, MJ in his house.
held without bail for all above reasons
And I have officially formed an opinion.
Abused his daughter
Took porn pix of daughter
at least 2 known 911 calls for parking lots wrt road rage involving guns
multiple criminal trespass complaints for douchbaggery
threatened judge
threatened to fly explosive plane into ATF federal building
made las vegas shooter like threats to the court
no family members appeared as character witnesses
in addition to illegal gun, cocaine, MJ in his house.
held without bail for all above reasons
That stuff was in the article. So why was he not nailed on many of those crimes (most having a legit victim) instead of the one thing that didn't?
PatrioticDisorder
10-20-18, 07:05
Abused his daughter
Took porn pix of daughter
at least 2 known 911 calls for parking lots wrt road rage involving guns
multiple criminal trespass complaints for douchbaggery
threatened judge
threatened to fly explosive plane into ATF federal building
made las vegas shooter like threats to the court
no family members appeared as character witnesses
in addition to illegal gun, cocaine, MJ in his house.
held without bail for all above reasons
You’ve been holding out on us, in light of this info, I would have thrown the book at him if I were the judge.
You’ve been holding out on us, in light of this info, I would have thrown the book at him if I were the judge.
Every bit of that is in the link shared in the first post in this thread.
Was all of that made up to smear him? If not, why were local/state officials enabling his decades long reign of terror?
Every bit of that is in the link shared in the first post in this thread.
Was all of that made up to smear him? If not, why were local/state officials enabling his decades long reign of terror?
News articles are living now. That was not the article present 2 days ago.
That is also a good question.
Abused his daughter
Took porn pix of daughter
at least 2 known 911 calls for parking lots wrt road rage involving guns
multiple criminal trespass complaints for douchbaggery
threatened judge
threatened to fly explosive plane into ATF federal building
made las vegas shooter like threats to the court
no family members appeared as character witnesses
in addition to illegal gun, cocaine, MJ in his house.
held without bail for all above reasons
Based upon all of his issues, he got off fairly lightly.
Abusing your own daughter and making threats to people should have been additional time in itself.
I read he also threatened people at a hospital.
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Based upon all of his issues, he got off fairly lightly.
Abusing your own daughter and making threats to people should have been additional time in itself.
I read he also threatened people at a hospital.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Actually, damaging people physically or financially should be the only thing you get time for. If he had 1 MG or a hundred and didn't acquire them by theft or use them against someone no pockets were picked, nor legs broken.
Now, was all of that just a smear job to get the MG conviction? If not, and it is all true, why did the local/state officials enable him to do so? Apparently for decades *if* true.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-20-18, 08:57
News articles are living now. That was not the article present 2 days ago.
That is also a good question.
Correct. The first time I read the article the only offenses mentioned was the M14 and the Mary Juana.
Every bit of that is in the link shared in the first post in this thread.
That stuff was in the article.
No ity was not in the article until late yesterday -> UPDATED: October 19, 2018 4:50 PM.
I got it off PACER from tips from local sources. Eventually the media printed it.
As to why he is not being charged on that other stuff, those are state charges, not fed charges. Not sure if state will charge him or not.
No ity was not in the article until late yesterday -> UPDATED: October 19, 2018 4:50 PM.
I got it off PACER from tips from local sources. Eventually the media printed it.
As to why he is not being charged on that other stuff, those are state charges, not fed charges. Not sure if state will charge him or not.
While I missed that the article was updated, your mention of being local gave me the impression the guy and his illegal acts was known to you and a fair number of the community.
I realize the MG charge is federal which is the reason I asked why local/state authorities had allowed him to operate as a career criminal for years if not decades.
Some of it may have been off the radar, but the out in public and reported stuff certainly wasn't. The insinuated volume of that side of it even seems interesting as to why it apparently never advanced above a fairly low scale public disturbance on his side and/or an alleged intended victim not punching his ticket in some capacity.
As far as the daughter goes, and considering the timing, did it really happen or is she just an anti gun loon/didn't get a Mercedes at 16?
While I missed that the article was updated, your mention of being local gave me the impression the guy and his illegal acts was known to you and a fair number of the community.
I did not mean to imply that.
I meant there is more local reporting in news, papers, social media than you might see if all you get is a single source. For example, in addition to what I posted above, he also sued his Air Park 10 years ago. So he may have a long enemies list.
For example, in addition to what I posted above, he also sued his Air Park 10 years ago. So he may have a long enemies list.
From what I read of the case in the link I attached, seems to me he had a case on that one - and sued on behalf of his wife.
Other than that, the hospital stuff could have been related to his perception as to his wife's treatment - not an excuse, everyone is responsible for their actions.
The daughter stuff, is what changes my mind an convinces me the guy needs a vacation instead of a fine, the rub is that they have nothing to do with the federal charges as others have mentioned.
From what I read of the case in the link I attached, seems to me he had a case on that one - and sued on behalf of his wife.
Agree, seemed like reasonable action his part. But given his history, he probably irritated a lot of people along the way.
Mr. Goodtimes
10-20-18, 13:36
Well this is sort of a hard one for me... the guy sounds like kind of a dick but at the same time all gun control is unconstitutional so.....
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Serial number scratched off told me all I needed to know.
This may seem hard to believe, but pilots can be real assholes.
Serial number scratched off told me all I needed to know.
Aesthetically it probably looked like hell too on the heel of that receiver.
This may seem hard to believe, but pilots can be real assholes.
Oh!!! Looks like someone flunked out of flight school... :dirol:
Serial number scratched off told me all I needed to know.
Yep, serial number scratched off anything(or filed off in the case of a metal object) is a huge red flag to me. That and the rest of what was claimed in the article.
Don't know if he should have gotten the time he did but having stolen property with clear signs its stolen?
That stuff was in the article. So why was he not nailed on many of those crimes (most having a legit victim) instead of the one thing that didn't?
Al Capone was jailed for income tax evasion.
Al Capone was jailed for income tax evasion.
True instead of legit victims.
As far as the stolen from government stores thing goes, there is no telling how many WWII era weapons floating around that share that characteristic. A fair amount of the MG registry was acquired in that manner. Forgotten Weapons recently covered an M16 with original serial # destroyed that was Amnesty Registered in 68. It was either Small Arms Review or MG News that covered a Thompson stolen by an FBI/Secret Service Agent and registered in 68 also....best I can recall it's serial number was defaced as well. Not seeing those scenarios as being worse than chopping them up or shipping them off to be used by international despots.
Like I said, World Class douchebag. And his lawyer is a World Class liar, bought it at a gun show BS.
Press Release:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edtx/pr/plano-man-sentenced-7-years-firearms-violation
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, October 19, 2018
Plano Man Sentenced to 7 Years for Firearms Violation
PLANO, Texas – A 70-year-old Plano, Texas man has been sentenced to federal prison for a firearms violation in the Eastern District of Texas, announced U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown.
Alfred Pick pleaded guilty on May 22, 2018, to a charge of possession of a firearm while an unlawful user of a controlled substance and was sentenced, pursuant to an agreement by all parties, to 87 months in federal prison on Oct. 17, 2018 by U.S. District Judge Marcia Crone.
According to information presented to the court, Plano police were called to an area hospital on Oct. 2, 2017, regarding a belligerent individual. Officers encountered Pick, who was upset about the treatment of a relative in the hospital, and had told medical staff and others, that he intended to return to the hospital with a firearm and “would shoot [hospital staff] in their kneecaps and elbows first and let them bleed.” Pick was taken into custody and delivered to mental health authorities for an evaluation.
As a result of the incident at the hospital, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) opened an investigation that eventually received information that Pick possessed weapons and narcotics at his home. Agents obtained a search warrant and found over 2 grams of cocaine and over 10 grams of marijuana in Pick’s residence. Agents also discover 14 firearms at Pick’s residence, including a fully automatic machine gun with an obliterated serial number that witnesses later told investigators that Pick had admitted he stole while he served in the military.
The sentencing court also received information that Pick had repeatedly been cited for criminal trespass at various area hospitals for his aggressive behavior, involving both verbal and physical abuse of medical staff and impeding staff. The court also heard that police had been called on two prior occasions in 2014 to restaurant parking lots where patrons reported that Pick had been threatening and brandished handguns in encounters with him.
Additional information presented at sentencing revealed Pick’s daughter reported to investigators that Pick had sexually abused her from the time she was 4-years-old until the age of 17, taking nude photographs of her to, as he put it, “chart her growth” and sexually assaulting her.
Finally, the sentencing court received evidence that Pick threatened the Federal Magistrate Judge who detained him indicating he would fly his plane with explosives to kill the Judge and ATF agents who investigated his case. Pick also stated that he would “have taught the Las Vegas shooter a thing or two,” referring to the Oct. 1, 2017 mass shooting.
“Obviously, there was a lot more to the sentence that was received – a sentence that Mr. Pick and his lawyer agreed to – than a single gun with a missing serial number,” said U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown. “Although Mr. Pick was a decorated veteran, he would use that status routinely to try to excuse his repeated criminal behavior. This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue.”
“The people concerned for Mr. Pick’s safety when he honorably served our nation were the same people most-concerned for his and the public’s safety throughout our investigation,” stated ATF Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey C. Boshek II. “I applaud those that recognized and reported Mr. Pick’s abuse of controlled substances, amplified threats and intensified displays of physical and psychological aggression as well as the decisive action of the ATF Agents.”
In addition to the charge for which he was convicted, Pick was originally charged with two other violations – possession of an unregistered firearm and possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As part of Pick’s agreement to plead guilty and agreement as to the term of his sentence, these charges were dismissed.
This case was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives and prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Tracey Batson.
PatrioticDisorder
10-21-18, 16:18
Like I said, World Class douchebag. And his lawyer is a World Class liar, bought it at a gun show BS.
Press Release:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edtx/pr/plano-man-sentenced-7-years-firearms-violation
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Friday, October 19, 2018
Plano Man Sentenced to 7 Years for Firearms Violation
PLANO, Texas – A 70-year-old Plano, Texas man has been sentenced to federal prison for a firearms violation in the Eastern District of Texas, announced U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown.
Alfred Pick pleaded guilty on May 22, 2018, to a charge of possession of a firearm while an unlawful user of a controlled substance and was sentenced, pursuant to an agreement by all parties, to 87 months in federal prison on Oct. 17, 2018 by U.S. District Judge Marcia Crone.
According to information presented to the court, Plano police were called to an area hospital on Oct. 2, 2017, regarding a belligerent individual. Officers encountered Pick, who was upset about the treatment of a relative in the hospital, and had told medical staff and others, that he intended to return to the hospital with a firearm and “would shoot [hospital staff] in their kneecaps and elbows first and let them bleed.” Pick was taken into custody and delivered to mental health authorities for an evaluation.
As a result of the incident at the hospital, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) opened an investigation that eventually received information that Pick possessed weapons and narcotics at his home. Agents obtained a search warrant and found over 2 grams of cocaine and over 10 grams of marijuana in Pick’s residence. Agents also discover 14 firearms at Pick’s residence, including a fully automatic machine gun with an obliterated serial number that witnesses later told investigators that Pick had admitted he stole while he served in the military.
The sentencing court also received information that Pick had repeatedly been cited for criminal trespass at various area hospitals for his aggressive behavior, involving both verbal and physical abuse of medical staff and impeding staff. The court also heard that police had been called on two prior occasions in 2014 to restaurant parking lots where patrons reported that Pick had been threatening and brandished handguns in encounters with him.
Additional information presented at sentencing revealed Pick’s daughter reported to investigators that Pick had sexually abused her from the time she was 4-years-old until the age of 17, taking nude photographs of her to, as he put it, “chart her growth” and sexually assaulting her.
Finally, the sentencing court received evidence that Pick threatened the Federal Magistrate Judge who detained him indicating he would fly his plane with explosives to kill the Judge and ATF agents who investigated his case. Pick also stated that he would “have taught the Las Vegas shooter a thing or two,” referring to the Oct. 1, 2017 mass shooting.
“Obviously, there was a lot more to the sentence that was received – a sentence that Mr. Pick and his lawyer agreed to – than a single gun with a missing serial number,” said U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown. “Although Mr. Pick was a decorated veteran, he would use that status routinely to try to excuse his repeated criminal behavior. This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue.”
“The people concerned for Mr. Pick’s safety when he honorably served our nation were the same people most-concerned for his and the public’s safety throughout our investigation,” stated ATF Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey C. Boshek II. “I applaud those that recognized and reported Mr. Pick’s abuse of controlled substances, amplified threats and intensified displays of physical and psychological aggression as well as the decisive action of the ATF Agents.”
In addition to the charge for which he was convicted, Pick was originally charged with two other violations – possession of an unregistered firearm and possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As part of Pick’s agreement to plead guilty and agreement as to the term of his sentence, these charges were dismissed.
This case was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives and prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Tracey Batson.
It would have been nice if this info was available from the onset, I don’t think there is much more to say here. Sounds to me like he got off easy when put into context, this guy sounds like he was a legit ticking time bomb. Thank you for the update.
Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Sounds like the only thing they got him on was a firearms violation. A prosecutor isn't going to paint anyone they really go after as being decent in anyway.
After seeing gun shows with several Streetsweepers and Thompson Contenders in SBR form, pistols with vertic fire grips, and various other items at gun shows with no paperwork along with countless rifles and magazines from 1994 to 2004 that were in violation of the Clinton ban and still occasionally seeing rifles sold that violates the 1989 Bush ban it is entirely possible he just bought it at one.
Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Sounds like the only thing they got him on was a firearms violation. A prosecutor isn't going to paint anyone they really go after as being decent in anyway.
After seeing gun shows with several Streetsweepers and Thompson Contenders in SBR form, pistols with vertic fire grips, and various other items at gun shows with no paperwork along with countless rifles and magazines from 1994 to 2004 that were in violation of the Clinton ban and still occasionally seeing rifles sold that violates the 1989 Bush ban it is entirely possible he just bought it at one.
It is like you did not read the Press Release at all.
You mean the one with statements by people who swore an oath to support and defend no infringements on keeping and bearing arms?
Alfred Pick pleaded guilty on May 22, 2018, to a charge of possession of a firearm while an unlawful user of a controlled substance and was sentenced, pursuant to an agreement by all parties, to 87 months in federal prison on Oct. 17, 2018 by U.S. District Judge Marcia Crone.
According to information presented to the court, Plano police were called to an area hospital on Oct. 2, 2017, regarding a belligerent individual. Officers encountered Pick, who was upset about the treatment of a relative in the hospital, and had told medical staff and others, that he intended to return to the hospital with a firearm and “would shoot [hospital staff] in their kneecaps and elbows first and let them bleed.” Pick was taken into custody and delivered to mental health authorities for an evaluation.
As a result of the incident at the hospital, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) opened an investigation that eventually received information that Pick possessed weapons and narcotics at his home. Agents obtained a search warrant and found over 2 grams of cocaine and over 10 grams of marijuana in Pick’s residence. Agents also discover 14 firearms at Pick’s residence, including a fully automatic machine gun with an obliterated serial number that witnesses later told investigators that Pick had admitted he stole while he served in the military.
The sentencing court also received information that Pick had repeatedly been cited for criminal trespass at various area hospitals for his aggressive behavior, involving both verbal and physical abuse of medical staff and impeding staff. The court also heard that police had been called on two prior occasions in 2014 to restaurant parking lots where patrons reported that Pick had been threatening and brandished handguns in encounters with him.
Additional information presented at sentencing revealed Pick’s daughter reported to investigators that Pick had sexually abused her from the time she was 4-years-old until the age of 17, taking nude photographs of her to, as he put it, “chart her growth” and sexually assaulting her.
Finally, the sentencing court received evidence that Pick threatened the Federal Magistrate Judge who detained him indicating he would fly his plane with explosives to kill the Judge and ATF agents who investigated his case. Pick also stated that he would “have taught the Las Vegas shooter a thing or two,” referring to the Oct. 1, 2017 mass shooting.
“Obviously, there was a lot more to the sentence that was received – a sentence that Mr. Pick and his lawyer agreed to – than a single gun with a missing serial number,” said U.S. Attorney Joseph D. Brown. “Although Mr. Pick was a decorated veteran, he would use that status routinely to try to excuse his repeated criminal behavior. This was also not a mental health issue. It became a public safety issue.”
“The people concerned for Mr. Pick’s safety when he honorably served our nation were the same people most-concerned for his and the public’s safety throughout our investigation,” stated ATF Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey C. Boshek II. “I applaud those that recognized and reported Mr. Pick’s abuse of controlled substances, amplified threats and intensified displays of physical and psychological aggression as well as the decisive action of the ATF Agents.”
In addition to the charge for which he was convicted, Pick was originally charged with two other violations – possession of an unregistered firearm and possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. As part of Pick’s agreement to plead guilty and agreement as to the term of his sentence, these charges were dismissed.
This case was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives and prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Tracey Batson.[/I]
So that pretty much settles that for me. The daughters allegations may or may not have been BS but still plenty there. Stealing a M-14 from the military vs. obtaining one at a gun show that may or may not have been a "known violation" are two different things.
Sounds like this guy is very lucky he did some things right back in the day, because his past service must have factored in heavily to only get 7 years. Even if he doctored a M1A to become a full auto, that is still much, much different from "stole one from the army and ground off the numbers."
Add drugs and an obvious attitude / perhaps serious mental problem and here you are.
You mean the one with statements by people who swore an oath to support and defend no infringements on keeping and bearing arms?
If you steal a rifle you don't have a 2nd Amendment right to keep it.
If you steal a rifle you don't have a 2nd Amendment right to keep it.
He didn't get convicted for that and claimed in court he didn't steal it, but bought it.
The side opposing him swore an oath to defend and uphold no infringements, yet infringing is what we see from that side.
If we ignore their oath of office to give them the benefit of the doubt, it seems their case against was mostly a list issues that were bad and should have got him nailed to the wall over (if true), but weren't within their purview any way.
He didn't get convicted for that and claimed in court he didn't steal it, but bought it.
He plead guilty, thus he never explained in court how he obtained it. The Gun Show purchase was just a lie made up by his attorney.
The whole "Decorated Vietnam Veteran, POW Sentenced To 7+ Years For ‘Mistake’ Made Decades Ago" was lawyer bullshit, he got 7+ years for a lifetime of being a douchbag.
He plead guilty, thus he never explained in court how he obtained it. The Gun Show purchase was just a lie made up by his attorney.
The whole "Decorated Vietnam Veteran, POW Sentenced To 7+ Years For ‘Mistake’ Made Decades Ago" was lawyer bullshit, he got 7+ years for a lifetime of being a douchbag.
Yes I saw that he took a plea bargain. I read that in there where they were going on about all the other things he did that were not within their purview.
I don't care about his veteran status in the grand scheme of things. In fact, I think legal exemptions based on employment (by statute or professional courtesy) should never have been allowed to take root in the first place and should be done away with.
I also think it is a really bad idea to support laws centering around firearms since that tends to imbed the notion of firearms possesion as being indicative of crime in the unwashed masses. Someone robbing a store is the issue to me. That they carried a firearm while doing so versus a knife, club, or whatever doesn't factor in to my belief that the robbery was wrong.
He didn't get convicted for that and claimed in court he didn't steal it, but bought it.
The side opposing him swore an oath to defend and uphold no infringements, yet infringing is what we see from that side.
If we ignore their oath of office to give them the benefit of the doubt, it seems their case against was mostly a list issues that were bad and should have got him nailed to the wall over (if true), but weren't within their purview any way.
I like how you're very obviously on the wrong side of this one and just double down on the BS.
I like how you're very obviously on the wrong side of this one and just double down on the BS.
He didn't get convicted for theft.
The side of the legal argument opposing him swore an path to not infringe, yet we get to see that side trying to infringe daily.
Ignoring what they swore to uphold, the bulk of their case against him centered around local crimes which, if true, actually had victims. The catch is, none of that seems to have anything to do with the M14, he hadn't been convicted on any of those issues, and don't appear to be federal crimes either.
So what is the BS in that?
He didn't get convicted for theft.
The side of the legal argument opposing him swore an path to not infringe, yet we get to see that side trying to infringe daily.
Ignoring what they swore to uphold, the bulk of their case against him centered around local crimes which, if true, actually had victims. The catch is, none of that seems to have anything to do with the M14, he hadn't been convicted on any of those issues, and don't appear to be federal crimes either.
So what is the BS in that?
"Alfred Pick pleaded guilty on May 22, 2018, to a charge of possession of a firearm while an unlawful user of a controlled substance and was sentenced, pursuant to an agreement by all parties, to 87 months in federal prison on Oct. 17, 2018 by U.S. District Judge Marcia Crone."
He was convicted of a federal firearms crime, they just dismissed the other two charges specific to the M14 (unregistered MG and obliterated serial number) as part of the plea deal.
I guess you're suggesting that the whole guns + illegal drugs thing is infringement. Should we take that to mean you'd prefer felons of all types be able to own firearms?
I suspect anything that falls to the state will be handled at that level, provided they choose to prosecute.
"Alfred Pick pleaded guilty on May 22, 2018, to a charge of possession of a firearm while an unlawful user of a controlled substance and was sentenced, pursuant to an agreement by all parties, to 87 months in federal prison on Oct. 17, 2018 by U.S. District Judge Marcia Crone."
He was convicted of a federal firearms crime, they just dismissed the other two charges specific to the M14 (unregistered MG and obliterated serial number) as part of the plea deal.
I guess you're suggesting that the whole guns + illegal drugs thing is infringement. Should we take that to mean you'd prefer felons of all types be able to own firearms?
I suspect anything that falls to the state will be handled at that level, provided they choose to prosecute.
You are correct in my not being a drug war supporter. All of that appears to be just a follow up to alcohol prohibition.
And yes, if someone is safe enough to be out and free then they should have the right to be armed. If they are too much of a threat to be armed then they don't need to be out with access to blunt objects, cars, or even a side and strength advantage over intended victims.
States really shouldn't be involved in that either. A lot of Americans died in the 1860's with the desire to strip states of their authority to pick and choose which freedoms they would allow.
Sometimes karma arrives in a black Suburban.
He didn't get convicted for theft.
The side of the legal argument opposing him swore an path to not infringe, yet we get to see that side trying to infringe daily.
Ignoring what they swore to uphold, the bulk of their case against him centered around local crimes which, if true, actually had victims. The catch is, none of that seems to have anything to do with the M14, he hadn't been convicted on any of those issues, and don't appear to be federal crimes either.
So what is the BS in that?
Take your thinly veiled anti-LE/government nonsense elsewhere.
I guess they're suppose to ignore every other part of the oath about swearing to uphold the law, not just the 2nd, which isn't an issue at all here. Keep backing this loser horse of yours. The guy was a ticking time bomb psychopath and you take up for him? Rock on superstar.
Take your thinly veiled anti-LE/government nonsense elsewhere.
I guess they're suppose to ignore every other part of the oath about swearing to uphold the law, not just the 2nd, which isn't an issue at all here. Keep backing this loser horse of yours. The guy was a ticking time bomb psychopath and you take up for him? Rock on superstar.
Not sure how I am backing him or anti-LE/government if I would support his being charged with the offenses concerning his daughter, the threats made in public, and the theft charge.
Interesting they got him to plead on the possessing a firearm charge of none of what he was accused of involved the 2nd Amendment in any way.
Adrenaline_6
10-22-18, 13:35
Not sure how I am backing him or anti-LE/government if I would support his being charged with the offenses concerning his daughter, the threats made in public, and the theft charge.
Interesting they got him to plead on the possessing a firearm charge of none of what he was accused of involved the 2nd Amendment in any way.
You do know how the legal system works right? They come to a plea deal that both think is fair. If he plead innocent, he probably would have gotten all the theft charges added on too and been more buttf*cked. Just because he wasn't found guilty of it, doesn't mean he wasn't guilty, it was a plea deal.
You do know how the legal system works right? They come to a plea deal that both think is fair. If he plead innocent, he probably would have gotten all the theft charges added on too and been more buttf*cked. Just because he wasn't found guilty of it, doesn't mean he wasn't guilty, it was a plea deal.
Fairly sure I was the one who brought up that it was a plea deal. Rather surprised they didn't bring up some more local stuff on him.
Fairly sure I was the one who brought up that it was a plea deal.
Nope, I was post #34, though it was in the original article.
Nope, I was post #34, though it was in the original article.
Yes you did. Not sure which post of mine was later that I said the same.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-22-18, 14:14
Not sure how I am backing him or anti-LE/government if I would support his being charged with the offenses concerning his daughter, the threats made in public, and the theft charge.
Interesting they got him to plead on the possessing a firearm charge of none of what he was accused of involved the 2nd Amendment in any way.
Having sat through, or been involved in, thousands of criminal court proceedings, I'm very curious to see what information you have to back up the statement above. How was the voluntary plea deal forced upon the defendant?
Having sat through, or been involved in, thousands of criminal court proceedings, I'm very curious to see what information you have to back up the statement above. How was the voluntary plea deal forced upon the defendant?
As has been pointed out he was threatened with a worse outcome it he didn't take it. There have been plenty of people later exonerated who took the plea deal to avoid longer sentences.
The guy may be rotten through and through, but I am not the only one here who has questioned the alleged crimes being brought up that weren't even federal crimes.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-22-18, 14:55
As has been pointed out he was threatened with a worse outcome it he didn't take it. There have been plenty of people later exonerated who took the plea deal to avoid longer sentences.
The guy may be rotten through and through, but I am not the only one here who has questioned the alleged crimes being brought up that weren't even federal crimes.
LMAO. That's how plea deals work, you understand that right? The prosecutor threatens hefty sanctions and offers lighter sanctions in exchange for a GULITY plea. In the history of plea deals offered by prosecutors to defendants, I am positive there has never been one where a harsher sentence was not threatened if the plea were to be turned down.
And yet, in your eyes, this case is somehow special...
LMAO. That's how plea deals work, you understand that right? The prosecutor threatens hefty sanctions and offers lighter sanctions in exchange for a GULITY plea. In the history of plea deals offered by prosecutors to defendants, I am positive there has never been one where a harsher sentence was not threatened if the plea were to be turned down.
And yet, in your eyes, this case is somehow special...
Yes I understand stacking up charges is how plea deals work. Not exactly something I would refer to as voluntary, but then again I tend to refer to things like magazine capacity as 2nd Amendment infringements while many those invested in the legal/criminal justice fields claim aren't infringements.
Yes I understand stacking up charges is how plea deals work. Not exactly something I would refer to as voluntary, but then again I tend to refer to things like magazine capacity as 2nd Amendment infringements while many those invested in the legal/criminal justice fields claim aren't infringements.
Many? What does that mean? A majority? Have you interviewed numerous prosecutors, judges and officers to arrive at this conclusion?
I'll give you this, you are determined.
Many? What does that mean? A majority? Have you interviewed numerous prosecutors, judges and officers to arrive at this conclusion?
I'll give you this, you are determined.
Stock definition of many.
Seen members of those groups claiming to be 2nd Amendment supporters...and some seem genuine....but at the end of the day I don't see antigunners throwing up their hands and going home due to not getting their agenda executed.
Determined about what exactly? Opposition to anti gun laws and the infrastructure that increases them?
Yes I understand stacking up charges is how plea deals work. Not exactly something I would refer to as voluntary, but then again I tend to refer to things like magazine capacity as 2nd Amendment infringements while many those invested in the legal/criminal justice fields claim aren't infringements.
While many consider laws that register and regulate machine guns to be infringement, the fact that he stole one from Uncle Sammy is probably what really bit him on the ass. If this was just an illegal conversion, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it.
Not sure how I am backing him or anti-LE/government if I would support his being charged with the offenses concerning his daughter, the threats made in public, and the theft charge.
Interesting they got him to plead on the possessing a firearm charge of none of what he was accused of involved the 2nd Amendment in any way.
Dude you're so out in left field its just hilarious.
While many consider laws that register and regulate machine guns to be infringement, the fact that he stole one from Uncle Sammy is probably what really bit him on the ass. If this was just an illegal conversion, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it.
Then he should have been charged with that.
Same goes with the alleged sexual assault and threats.
Dude you're so out in left field its just hilarious.
You said I was backing him and was anti-le/government. So when I point out that he should have been charged and put on trial for sexual assault/threats/theft (repeatedly and which would all involve le/government) you have to say I am in left field now?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-22-18, 21:16
Yes I understand stacking up charges is how plea deals work. Not exactly something I would refer to as voluntary, but then again I tend to refer to things like magazine capacity as 2nd Amendment infringements while many those invested in the legal/criminal justice fields claim aren't infringements.
You don't get to equate those two things, they are not similar and your strawman is destroyed.
You don't get to equate those two things, they are not similar and your strawman is destroyed.
Why can't I equate the 2? In a legal setting it appears voluntary doesn't mean acting of one's own free will and infringe doesn't mean limiting or encroaching on.
Then he should have been charged with that.
Same goes with the alleged sexual assault and threats.
Who says he will not be now that the Federal charges are done?
Who says he will not be now that the Federal charges are done?
The greatest concern was the firearms charge so the other stuff really isn't that big of a deal.
The greatest concern was the firearms charge so the other stuff really isn't that big of a deal.
The state stuff adds up to more years in jail then the firearms charge.
The greatest concern was the firearms charge so the other stuff really isn't that big of a deal.
And now you're reading the state attorney's mind too...
The state stuff adds up to more years in jail then the firearms charge.
So? That isn't as interesting as a chance to link "gun" and "crime" in the same sentence. Kind of like Project Exile started in Virginia back in the 90's. Robbing a store wasn't of much interest to anyone unless the perp had a firearm in them.
So?
So it is a "big deal", contrary to what you said -> "The greatest concern was the firearms charge so the other stuff really isn't that big of a deal."
And now you're reading the state attorney's mind too...
Didn't seem to be of much concern to them in 2014 when he allegedly did it.
Didn't seem to be of much concern to them in 2014 when he allegedly did it.
It was almost exactly one year ago.
Then he should have been charged with that.
Same goes with the alleged sexual assault and threats.
He was charged with that, then lucky for him, during the plea deal negotiation he got the really big stuff tossed and pled to much less severe crimes. I think that is the important part you are missing.
Also if you go back a few pages, I already noted that the daughters allegations were just that and might be BS. Of course they could be very real and we'll probably never know. Obviously there was enough real stuff that he took the plea.
It was almost exactly one year ago.
Oh ok, the M14 came up about 1 year ago. So you are meaning state charges for the firearms possession.
I was referring to the 2014 threatening incidents mentioned in the article as not being the main concern. Add in the sexual assaults on the daughter, but not sure when those were happening.
Oh ok, the M14 came up about 1 year ago. So you are meaning state charges for the firearms possession.
No I am meaning the threats against healthcare workers, criminal trespass, threats to the judge, threats to the ATF, possession of cocaine, possession of MJ, possession of a stolen gun and possession of a gun with obliterated SN. All of that was about 1 year ago.
No I am meaning the threats against healthcare workers, criminal trespass, threats to the judge, threats to the ATF, possession of cocaine, possession of MJ, possession of a stolen gun and possession of a gun with obliterated SN. All of that was about 1 year ago.
You never know.
Moose-Knuckle
10-25-18, 12:56
So in review, we live in a nation where a guy who stole a firearm while in the military is getting hemmed up forty years later for possession of a machine gun not the actual theft itself and he is facing prison time for said machine gun possession and NOT sexually assaulting his own child and making kiddy porn of her . . .
Yup that's justice.
So in review, we live in a nation where a guy who stole a firearm while in the military is getting hemmed up forty years later for possession of a machine gun not the actual theft itself and he is facing prison time for said machine gun possession and NOT sexually assaulting his own child and making kiddy porn of her . . .
Yup that's justice.
That's because we have a legal system rather than a system of justice. And as dissatisfying as it is, it would probably be hard to dramatically improve it. If we tried to implement a true "system of justice" it would likely be a complete disaster.
Moose-Knuckle
10-25-18, 14:38
That's because we have a legal system rather than a system of justice. And as dissatisfying as it is, it would probably be hard to dramatically improve it. If we tried to implement a true "system of justice" it would likely be a complete disaster.
Repeal the NFA and capital punishment for pedophiles would be one hell of a start though.
Repeal the NFA and capital punishment for pedophiles would be one hell of a start though.
:agree: ^^^ Absolutely. Although I honestly believe there are those on the Left, along with all their Hollyweird supporters, who would like to legalize pedophilia. They've already legitimized plenty of other deviant behavior to the point where you are called a bigot and a homophobe if you do not actively support such behavior.
Moose-Knuckle
10-25-18, 17:22
Although I honestly believe there are those on the Left, along with all their Hollyweird supporters, who would like to legalize pedophilia. They've already legitimized plenty of other deviant behavior to the point where you are called a bigot and a homophobe if you do not actively support such behavior.
Absolutely this is part of the agenda, well that and zoophilia. Pedosexual is merely another "orientation" and thus pedophiles are misunderstood victims of Western Civilization and the Judeo-Christian patriarchy. . . blah-blah-blah.
Repeal the NFA and capital punishment for pedophiles would be one hell of a start though.
So here is your first fatal flaw. Strictly define pedophilia so that we aren't sending 18 year olds to death row for having a 16 year old girlfriend. I completely understand where you are going and would have zero problem throwing the switch on guys in their 20s and above who are having sex with 12 year olds, consensual or not but defining that age gap will always be problematic.
You will always have somebody going to death row because they were born in Jan rather than Dec and that can be hard to reconcile. This is why things are supposed to be left up to judges and juries, problem is lately judges and juries are operating under a truly bizarre mindset that seems to be founded in "geeze...that could be me up there one day."
The other problem is just as we can pretty decidedly see that guys in their 20s and above having sex with 12 year olds is clearly wrong and a mental disorder that can probably never be truly fixed for that individual, there are literally millions of people who view gun owners in nearly exactly the same light and they will trot out some mental gibberish such as "at least victims of pedophilia get to live" or some similar nonsense.
And finally humans seem to have a fundamental flaw recognizing right and wrong so they fall back on legal and not legal. So while the Japanese have no problem handing out life sentences for firearm possession they see nothing wrong with playing with machine guns while on vacation in the US. By the same token while we are generally horrified by child molesters there are still people who will apply "when in Rome" to "when in Bangkok" and will see having sex with children as suddenly ok because rules are different there.
So in review, we live in a nation where a guy who stole a firearm while in the military is getting hemmed up forty years later for possession of a machine gun not the actual theft itself and he is facing prison time for said machine gun possession and NOT sexually assaulting his own child and making kiddy porn of her . . .
Yup that's justice.
You'd have a hard time finding evidence that he stole the rifle 40 years ago, but you have all the evidence you need to prove he possessed it. Also, delayed sexual assault allegations are very hard to prove. Did they actually find the child porn?
Moose-Knuckle
10-25-18, 19:02
So here is your first fatal flaw. Strictly define pedophilia so that we aren't sending 18 year olds to death row for having a 16 year old girlfriend. I completely understand where you are going and would have zero problem throwing the switch on guys in their 20s and above who are having sex with 12 year olds, consensual or not but defining that age gap will always be problematic.
You will always have somebody going to death row because they were born in Jan rather than Dec and that can be hard to reconcile. This is why things are supposed to be left up to judges and juries, problem is lately judges and juries are operating under a truly bizarre mindset that seems to be founded in "geeze...that could be me up there one day."
The other problem is just as we can pretty decidedly see that guys in their 20s and above having sex with 12 year olds is clearly wrong and a mental disorder that can probably never be truly fixed for that individual, there are literally millions of people who view gun owners in nearly exactly the same light and they will trot out some mental gibberish such as "at least victims of pedophilia get to live" or some similar nonsense.
And finally humans seem to have a fundamental flaw recognizing right and wrong so they fall back on legal and not legal. So while the Japanese have no problem handing out life sentences for firearm possession they see nothing wrong with playing with machine guns while on vacation in the US. By the same token while we are generally horrified by child molesters there are still people who will apply "when in Rome" to "when in Bangkok" and will see having sex with children as suddenly ok because rules are different there.
All that is because we have lost our way as a nation. Common sense takes care of all the above. I know, I know . . . we're talking about human beings here which the vast majority of them are completely ****ing stupid.
But in this case if the MG was not prohibited then what would his charge be? And if was taken out back of the courthouse after his daughter's molestation trial and hung until dead then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
You'd have a hard time finding evidence that he stole the rifle 40 years ago, but you have all the evidence you need to prove he possessed it. Also, delayed sexual assault allegations are very hard to prove. Did they actually find the child porn?
Part of prosecuting someone is establishing a case against them, how . . . when . . . who, etc. How did he acquire said MG, any witnesses, etc. As for the child sexual assault and porn I have no idea. Point is a guy is going away for an MG that has never been used in a crime and he skates on raping his daughter. That is FUBAR, WWTFFD (what would the Founding Fathers do?).
Knock off the shit or see yourself out of this thread. It's apparent you are stirring the shit pot with great fervor.
Stock definition of many.
Seen members of those groups claiming to be 2nd Amendment supporters...and some seem genuine....but at the end of the day I don't see antigunners throwing up their hands and going home due to not getting their agenda executed.
Determined about what exactly? Opposition to anti gun laws and the infrastructure that increases them?
All that is because we have lost our way as a nation. Common sense takes care of all the above. I know, I know . . . we're talking about human beings here which the vast majority of them are completely ****ing stupid.
If we could effectively apply common sense in the courts, never mind the complications of defining what constitutes common sense specifically, we wouldn't have most of our problems.
The problems are that we tolerate extremes, but if you get rid of the extremes, then off center moderates become the new extremists.
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