View Full Version : Would you feel under-gunned using Federal 9BPLE?
Curious to see the thoughts of you guys. It's an old-school cup-and-core JHP. There have been significant advancements in bullet construction with regard to terminal ballistics in the decades since 9BPLE's introduction, but it still has a following. In other words it's still not a bad choice. Although it is a +P+ round, I've never seen it's velocities chrono'd by someone above the low 1200's; a "true" (if you will) +P+ 9mm 115gr should hit the 1300's. Nonetheless, this round has a pretty good track record.
For the record, my load of choice is the HST 147gr +P. I do, however, have a few new(er) production boxes of 9BPLE on hand.
Curious to see the thoughts of you guys. It's an old-school cup-and-core JHP. There have been significant advancements in bullet construction with regard to terminal ballistics in the decades since 9BPLE's introduction, but it still has a following. In other words it's still not a bad choice. Although it is a +P+ round, I've never seen it's velocities chrono'd by someone above the low 1200's; a "true" (if you will) +P+ 9mm 115gr should hit the 1300's. Nonetheless, this round has a pretty good track record.
For the record, my load of choice is the HST 147gr +P. I do, however, have a few new(er) production boxes of 9BPLE on hand.
I would disagree. I think it is a bad choice. It may not have been bad 20 years ago but it is now. If it was that or ball as your only option, then sure I guess. That's probably not the case though.
I would disagree. I think it is a bad choice. It may not have been bad 20 years ago but it is now. If it was that or ball as your only option, then sure I guess. That's probably not the case though.
I've always wondered about this. Have thugs gotten that much tougher in 20 years? Maybe natural selection works at hyperspeed on the streets of the Big City.
For the record, I carry Q4318 and don't feel a bit under-gunned.
I would disagree. I think it is a bad choice. It may not have been bad 20 years ago but it is now. If it was that or ball as your only option, then sure I guess. That's probably not the case though.
It is a 115gr bullet, so "light" for caliber. From literature I've seen it mushrooms pretty well but does shed fragments, so penetration is not what some consider optimal. I would recommend, if using it, a 4" barrel as it does not make the usual 1300+fps of other +P+ 115gr loads (i.e. if carrying this load I would not use a anything less size-wise than a Glock 19 for that reason).
9BPLE is functional, but there are much better options available these days. No reason to deliberately choose it, but there are worse choices.
9BPLE is functional, but there are much better options available these days. No reason to deliberately choose it, but there are worse choices.
Pretty much where I'm at.
Undergunned? No, but its a bad choice. Poor, inconsistent penetration, fragments through autoglass.
Pretty much where I'm at.
This is what my department issued for our subguns years ago and I carried it in my BUG, too. Today I would not feel undergunned with the 9BPLE in my pistol but it wouldn't be my first choice either.
BuzzinSATX
10-29-18, 18:21
It probably has a higher chance of failing to retain weight or penetrate well but it beats a .22LR or a sharp stick.
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LMT Shooter
10-29-18, 21:01
I put together a stash of a few thousand 9mm 115gr +p & +p+ years ago, and I haven't felt compelled to switch. Are there better choices today? Absolutely yes. Do I feel undergunned with my stash? Absolutely not. But I'm not too picky about ammo these days, I think shot placement is far & away the biggest factor regarding "stopping power" (WTF that really means IDK) that I have control over.
I'm not sold on any wonder bullet. I think ammo choices have improved over the ears but it still comes down to placement. To answer your question, no I wouldn't but it wouldn't be my first choice. I have a pretty good stash of the old +P+ 115 load that Remington used to market for the subguns. We used itin our MP-5's back in the day. From a Glock 19 it hit's 1250-1300. It may be warm but I've never wore out my Glocks, even use it in the 43. In a 1911 it's almost gentle.
Drifting Fate
10-29-18, 21:34
Nope, don't feel underpinned at all. If we are going to believe that the 9mm is no worse than a .45 and that shot placement is king, then we have to accept that even older designs will get the work done if placed properly. Expansion is a plus, and the soft lead of the Federal round help that out.
Would I choose this to arm a PD with? No, as noted the penetration is more erratic than newer designs. But, for personal defense where full frontal shots are a lot more common than cross-torso shots, car doors, auto glass, barriers, etc... it will work fine.
Plus, it's cheap enough to 1) practice with, 2) feeds in damn near everything so that you can trust it across a myriad of guns if you aren' the hard core, "One Glock 19 only" kind of guy, and 3) is just about a target round it's so accurate.
I use 9BPLE in a variety of weapons as needs dictate and while not as "good" as something like HST or Gold Dot, humans haven't changed in the last 20 years, and it used to be considered the proverbial death ray that brought 9mm up to the standard of a .45.
I know we can't quantify the effects of velocity of handgun bullets on the human body and so tend to ignore it, can't rely on it, but street reports, hunting anecdotes, and people as esteemed as Mas Ayoob and his shooting of pigs in an abattoir show it is doing something. Maybe it's enough to change the day, maybe not, but if you don't have it, it can't work.
Before the torches and pitch forks come out, I agree - permanent crush cavity is the only thing which can be relied upon, and this load expands readily. Still, for centuries faster = better. What is the cutoff/threshold? 110lb woman crazy on meth or a 350lb biker drunk and pissed off - they are going to react differently. Just like .270 vs .30-06, depends on the target and shot placement. If velocity didn't matter, we wouldn't have .357 or .44 magnums, which arguably perform better than their parent cartridges. +P+ in a 9mm isn't a gold mine/winning lottery ticket, but it does give an edge that I'll take any day.
I'm not sold on any wonder bullet.
Neither am I. But I don't use the fact there are no "wonder bullets" to discount the advances in consistent expansion and performance through barriers modern testing has given us.
There is no good reason to keep a stockpile of old HP ammo. As a sunk cost it doesn't matter how much you paid for it then, it's really just good for practice ammo now.
Getting enough of something from the list to fill your go mags doesn't cost that much.
My experience with GSW's is that placement trumps penetration, expansion, or any other matrices of performance, within reason.
I wouldn't feel under gunned with it. I wouldn't feel under gunned loaded with ball ammo either. I would just understand the limitations of the round and proceed on.
Would i personally seek it out and buy it for carry? No. There are better performing bullets out there.
I started a similar thread months ago, and I got great info. I’ll see if I can find it. I ended up with Federal ammo that wasn’t a buck a round and it was considered good enough.
PB
I started a similar thread months ago, and I got great info. I’ll see if I can find it. I ended up with Federal ammo that wasn’t a buck a round and it was considered good enough.
PB
Hst, golddot, and winchester bonded (all147gr) can all be had for less than 50 cents a round.
There are a lot of options on The List for ~ 50 cents a shot.
I wouldn't feel under gunned with it. I wouldn't feel under gunned loaded with ball ammo either. I would just understand the limitations of the round and proceed on.
Would i personally seek it out and buy it for carry? No. There are better performing bullets out there.This ^ exactly!
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vicious_cb
10-30-18, 21:00
It wouldnt be my first choice or even 2nd or 3rd but I wouldnt feel under armed. At worst it will perform like an FMJ, its not like 9mm ball is less than lethal or anything.
Is this the ammunition to which you are referring? https://www.streichers.com/federal-cartridge-9mm-hi-shok-jhp-115-grain-p-duty-ammunition
My agency carried a Winchester 115g +P+ cartridge for years, because the people in our firearm section were varmint hunters and related it to the .22-250. It chronographed at 1340 fps out of a 4" S&W barrel.
None of the people I spoke with in our firearm section had ever seen it used in the field. Those of us who had seen it used in the field had a different opinion and were happy when the agency stopped issuing the cartridge.
I still have access to a substantial quantity of 115g +P+ ammunition, but prefer to carry Speer Gold Dot ammunition in my 9mm concealed carry pistols.
My experience with GSW's is that placement trumps penetration, expansion, or any other matrices of performance, within reason.
My experience with GSWs is that penetration is utterly necessary. Expansion is hit or miss when bullets hit people.
My experience with GSWs is that penetration is utterly necessary. Expansion is hit or miss when bullets hit people.
"Within reason". Within reason, to me, means it reaches a vital organ. Glaser slug that hits the sternum dead-on? Bad juju. Do I recommend them? No. But I was talking about GSW's, not carry recommendations or what I'd feel comfortable with. I've seen plenty of through-through that was worthless. I think ultimately it must be accepted that pistols don't stop people very rapidly unless they hit the CNS or core a major vessel. This is why I like rifles and shotguns. They actually tear stuff up vs. poking holes. Unless you hit the structures mentioned, you're just counting on the other person to freak out and give up, basically. Since that's rational, okay, but rational people don't typically do a bunch of meth and attack others, so maybe not ok.
That brings me full circle. All the penetration in the world is worthless if you just tap them high left or right chest. You're going to get a lung, and maybe/maybe not the subclavian. Those kinds of wounds aren't very effective in the short term. Sure, long term they will bleed out over the next half hour or who knows how long, but I'm not worried about that.
So my advice is to load up when you can put COM or in the CNS reliably, on demand. If that round happens to get 10" in FBI gel but you and your pistol shoot it faster and more accurately than anything else, whatever. I'd still pick it.
Shot placement is vital. However, I think many gun owners and toters use "shot placement" as some sort of trump card and excuse to use inferior product. Shots through barriers, at irregular angles, and in limited exposures are a reality. Modern bullets loaded with the least amount of recoil that achieves terminal ballistic standards should be the goal. And knowing what we know about the (in)frequency at which people train, compete, and meaningfully test themselves, I also wonder how many who offer "shot placement" can stand and deliver that placement cold on demand.
The above isn't directed at anyone here in particular, just an observation of the argument.
Shot placement is vital. However, I think many gun owners and toters use "shot placement" as some sort of trump card and excuse to use inferior product. Shots through barriers, at irregular angles, and in limited exposures are a reality. Modern bullets loaded with the least amount of recoil that achieves terminal ballistic standards should be the goal. And knowing what we know about the (in)frequency at which people train, compete, and meaningfully test themselves, I also wonder how many who offer "shot placement" can stand and deliver that placement cold on demand.
The above isn't directed at anyone here in particular, just an observation of the argument.
I agree with everything you've said. I'm just saying that I've seen people shot to shit with GREAT! ammunition. The one that dropped them? A funky hit in the lower abdomen that hit the CNS and the legs stopped working. Their top half was still fighting all the way to the intubation.
If it's free, or incredibly cheap, I'll gladly take all of it off you hands for you.
Saw video, read witness statements, examined autopsy on a guy shot with 9mm 115 grain ball. The bullet hit the subclavian. He fell down, got up, said "I'm shot, " walked around in a little circle, sat down, and died. The whole sequence took less than 30 seconds. Had it missed the subclavian, different outcome was likely.
How many people have we been shooting lately.
Saw video, read witness statements, examined autopsy on a guy shot with 9mm 115 grain ball. The bullet hit the subclavian. He fell down, got up, said "I'm shot, " walked around in a little circle, sat down, and died. The whole sequence took less than 30 seconds. Had it missed the subclavian, different outcome was likely.
Are you suggesting shot placement is important?
How many people have we been shooting lately.
This week?
We had a shooting victim here in New Orleans a few months ago (March 23rd I believe). He was sitting in his car having just got off work when he was approached by a young gentleman. An argument ensued, and the victim was shot 18 times with a 9mm, just about everywhere in his body including three head shots. The perp ran off, and was arrested a short time later. The victim drove away and made it to a local Hotel. He walked into the lobby gushing blood, and said "I'm sorry about bleeding all over your floor, but I need help". Police were called, and when the ambulance arrived, the victim stood up and walked to the gurney and laid on it so the EMT's could start working on him to save his life. He was transported to the local Hospital and the trauma team saved him. He kept saying that all he wanted was to go back to work (he held two jobs to support his family). He survived the shooting, and if anyone reads this in time, he and his story will be on the Channel 4 News (WWL TV), here in New Orleans tonight (Friday May 10, 2019) at 10:00 pm entitled "The Miracle Man". Maybe not related to this thread because I have no idea what 9mm ammo the perp was carrying when he shot the victim. His story might be available on WWLTV.com if you care to search for it. I'm terrible with tech stuff, so I can't post a link, sorry.
We had a shooting victim here in New Orleans a few months ago. He was standing by his car having just got off work when he was approached by a young gentleman. An argument ensued, and the victim was shot 18 times with a 9mm, just about everywhere in his body including three head shots. The perp ran off, and was arrested a short time later. When the ambulance arrived, the victim stood up and walked to the gurney and laid on it so the EMT's could start working on him to save his life. He was transported to the local Hospital and the trauma team saved him. He kept saying that all he wanted was to go back to work (he held two jobs to support his family). He survived the shooting, and if anyone reads this in time, he and his story will be on the Channel 4 News (WWL TV), here in New Orleans tonight (Friday May 10, 2019) at 10:00 pm entitled "The Miracle Man". Maybe not related to this thread because I have no idea what 9mm ammo the perp was carrying when he shot the victim. His story might be available on WWLTV.com if you care to search for it. I'm terrible with tech stuff, so I can't post a link, sorry.Similar situation in NYC maybe 10 years ago. Cops shot guy 22 times. He lived
9BPLE is functional, but there are much better options available these days. No reason to deliberately choose it, but there are worse choices.
Pretty much this.
I've shot a few boxes of 9BPLE. At first I thought it was a little harsher recoil than, for example, 124+P or 127+P+ but now I can't really tell a difference. It definitely is a bit louder though.
I don't think these 115gr rounds meet the FBI protocol 12" minimum penetration but they supposedly have a big wound track to make up for that. That energy has to go somewhere.
I don't think these 115gr rounds meet the FBI protocol 12" minimum penetration but they supposedly have a big wound track to make up for that. That energy has to go somewhere.
Physics gives us the theory of conservation of energy. Unfortunately it does not give us any theory of knockdown power or stopping power, so physics tells us that energy is converted into into a minuscule temperature increase.
"Energy" doesn't damage vitals, the bullet getting to and better yet through is what causes damage.
ViniVidivici
10-28-19, 08:18
Best thing about that stuff is it was laser beam accurate in my Glocks.
It's definitely better than FMJ, but there are better bullet designs out there.
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