butlers
10-30-18, 14:09
All,
I wanted to revisit the topic of possible fratricide in a citizen response to an active shooter incident. Here are some quotes to start us off:
One valuable piece of advice a good friend who's a (very pro 2nd Amendment) BATFE agent gave was if you have to shoot, reholster or put the weapon the ground afterwards. Arms up, and wallet with ID in the air, plainly visible. His theory was that LEOs will subconsciously identify you as possibly an LEO showing his badge. Those few seconds of pause could save your life. Makes sense to me.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89472-Identifying-CCW-in-an-active-shooter-situation
You have sound logic there, however, anyone with a gun can be mistaken for the shooter. This is a bit of a side not but the Texas shooter is one instance that reinforces my emphasis on not looking too “tactical” during some sort of crisis. I️ think the less “tactical” type gear you have on the better. The church shooter was wearing the full giddy up, hence, wearing gym shorts and a t shirt makes you look much less like perpetrator, unlike someone dressed head to toe in Crye. I️ read an article a while back by Pat McNamara on the topic and he stated that he includes a neon safety vest in his active shooter kit to set him self apart from a shooter.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?201846-Thoughts-for-an-active-shooter-rig
If you are not a properly uniformed LEO or cannot be identified as one of the good guy in a micro seconds glance, then you are a DEAD man standing in front of me or my partners. The extreme degree of difficulty in Target Discrimination is bad enough on the streets, add in the factor of a school of running screaming kids and adults popping around corners etc...... OMG!!!! If you are an armed citizen in that scenario you had better worry more about the Trained Shooters mistaking you for a bad guy, than the bad guy getting you. When I am off duty I carry my M4 with me often, and in the case right next to it is my "SHERIFF" raid vest for identification.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?27039-Active-shooter-response-w-long-guns
*****
For the first responders here, let's say you're rolling up to an active shooter incident. You have limited information; you just know that shots have been fired at the local elementary school and people are down.
You stack up, go through the front door, button-hook left, and see this:
https://i.imgur.com/daExA2h.jpg
(images from AmmoLand (https://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/the-high-port-right-tool-for-the-right-job/) and SpecialTactics (https://specialtactics.me/home/2016/8/17/debate-1-low-ready-vs-high-ready))
Alternatively, you see this:
https://i.imgur.com/l09omT0.jpg
(images from IMFDb (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Town,_The#Remington_870) and a private blog (http://blog.olegvolk.net/2014/03/05/low-ready/))
Does the low profile of the second pair give responding officers that "few seconds of pause", since the "less tactical" appearance of their firearms, clothes, and demeanor might be captured in a "micro-seconds glance"?
*****
We know that the appearance/perception of a weapon affects juries:
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
Is the same true for law enforcement? Responding to an active shooter situation undoubtedly takes courage and dedication, but at the end of the day, police officers are still human. Could Pittsburgh (2018), Parkland (2018), Sutherland Springs (2017), Las Vegas (2017), Orlando (2016), San Bernardino (2015), etc. all have created a knee-jerk mental/visual association between AR-15s and mass shooters (not just for the media, but for first responders, too)?
And if it has, should that phenomenon influence weapons selection by non-LEOs who might intervene in an active shooting (e.g. are we better off responding with a deer rifle then a black rifle)? We modify our Glocks and ARs without a moment's hesitation if we think it'll give us even the slightest mechanical advantage. If a traditional/low profile gives us even a 5% psychological advantage (i.e. a responding LEO is less likely to think that we're the bad guy), isn't that more important than undercutting the trigger guard or stippling a grip?
*****
P.S. I know, I know: the historical consensus has been that if you decide to respond to an active shooter incident, you will do so with what you have on you (e.g. your CCW pistol). Running outside to your car to retrieve your trunk gun and then confronting the threat with said rifle/carbine/shotgun is a fantasy.
But maybe it's not so fanciful after all?
Scenario #1: "'In 2011 and 2012, Mr. Farook and Mr. Marquez planned...a rush-hour attack on State Route 91, a busy freeway.'....Consider a heavily traveled urban freeway...all it would take would be a terrorist driving a truck to simply turn the vehicle sharply and block all lanes of a traffic, perhaps having a similarly equipped accomplice do the same thing some distance behind....The terrorists could now dismount and shoot with impunity at the people in all of the stranded, boxed-in cars....In such a scenario, as long as you weren’t one of the closest cars to the terrorists, you might have time to access your stored long gun, make it ready, and then engage the terrorists with equivalent firepower and, more importantly, effective range."
https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/the-truck-gun-and-active-shooter-scenarios-tactical-fantasy-vs-legitimate-applications/
Scenario #2: "Just as Willeford reached the front yard of Fred and Kathleen Curnow, whose house faces the church entrance, a man wearing black body armor and a helmet with a visor emerged from the church. Willeford scrambled behind the front tire of Fred’s Dodge Ram. The gunman raised his pistol and fired three times. One bullet hit the truck. One hit the Dodge Challenger parked behind him. One hit the house. Willeford propped his AR-15 on the pickup’s hood and peered through the sight. He could see a holographic red dot on the man’s chest. He fired twice. He wasn’t sure he’d hit him, though he was later told that the man had contusions on his chest and abdomen consistent with getting shot while wearing body armor. Regardless, the gunman stopped shooting and ran for a white Ford Explorer that was idling outside the chapel, roughly twenty yards from where Willeford had positioned himself."
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-mass-murder/
I wanted to revisit the topic of possible fratricide in a citizen response to an active shooter incident. Here are some quotes to start us off:
One valuable piece of advice a good friend who's a (very pro 2nd Amendment) BATFE agent gave was if you have to shoot, reholster or put the weapon the ground afterwards. Arms up, and wallet with ID in the air, plainly visible. His theory was that LEOs will subconsciously identify you as possibly an LEO showing his badge. Those few seconds of pause could save your life. Makes sense to me.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?89472-Identifying-CCW-in-an-active-shooter-situation
You have sound logic there, however, anyone with a gun can be mistaken for the shooter. This is a bit of a side not but the Texas shooter is one instance that reinforces my emphasis on not looking too “tactical” during some sort of crisis. I️ think the less “tactical” type gear you have on the better. The church shooter was wearing the full giddy up, hence, wearing gym shorts and a t shirt makes you look much less like perpetrator, unlike someone dressed head to toe in Crye. I️ read an article a while back by Pat McNamara on the topic and he stated that he includes a neon safety vest in his active shooter kit to set him self apart from a shooter.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?201846-Thoughts-for-an-active-shooter-rig
If you are not a properly uniformed LEO or cannot be identified as one of the good guy in a micro seconds glance, then you are a DEAD man standing in front of me or my partners. The extreme degree of difficulty in Target Discrimination is bad enough on the streets, add in the factor of a school of running screaming kids and adults popping around corners etc...... OMG!!!! If you are an armed citizen in that scenario you had better worry more about the Trained Shooters mistaking you for a bad guy, than the bad guy getting you. When I am off duty I carry my M4 with me often, and in the case right next to it is my "SHERIFF" raid vest for identification.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?27039-Active-shooter-response-w-long-guns
*****
For the first responders here, let's say you're rolling up to an active shooter incident. You have limited information; you just know that shots have been fired at the local elementary school and people are down.
You stack up, go through the front door, button-hook left, and see this:
https://i.imgur.com/daExA2h.jpg
(images from AmmoLand (https://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/the-high-port-right-tool-for-the-right-job/) and SpecialTactics (https://specialtactics.me/home/2016/8/17/debate-1-low-ready-vs-high-ready))
Alternatively, you see this:
https://i.imgur.com/l09omT0.jpg
(images from IMFDb (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Town,_The#Remington_870) and a private blog (http://blog.olegvolk.net/2014/03/05/low-ready/))
Does the low profile of the second pair give responding officers that "few seconds of pause", since the "less tactical" appearance of their firearms, clothes, and demeanor might be captured in a "micro-seconds glance"?
*****
We know that the appearance/perception of a weapon affects juries:
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
Is the same true for law enforcement? Responding to an active shooter situation undoubtedly takes courage and dedication, but at the end of the day, police officers are still human. Could Pittsburgh (2018), Parkland (2018), Sutherland Springs (2017), Las Vegas (2017), Orlando (2016), San Bernardino (2015), etc. all have created a knee-jerk mental/visual association between AR-15s and mass shooters (not just for the media, but for first responders, too)?
And if it has, should that phenomenon influence weapons selection by non-LEOs who might intervene in an active shooting (e.g. are we better off responding with a deer rifle then a black rifle)? We modify our Glocks and ARs without a moment's hesitation if we think it'll give us even the slightest mechanical advantage. If a traditional/low profile gives us even a 5% psychological advantage (i.e. a responding LEO is less likely to think that we're the bad guy), isn't that more important than undercutting the trigger guard or stippling a grip?
*****
P.S. I know, I know: the historical consensus has been that if you decide to respond to an active shooter incident, you will do so with what you have on you (e.g. your CCW pistol). Running outside to your car to retrieve your trunk gun and then confronting the threat with said rifle/carbine/shotgun is a fantasy.
But maybe it's not so fanciful after all?
Scenario #1: "'In 2011 and 2012, Mr. Farook and Mr. Marquez planned...a rush-hour attack on State Route 91, a busy freeway.'....Consider a heavily traveled urban freeway...all it would take would be a terrorist driving a truck to simply turn the vehicle sharply and block all lanes of a traffic, perhaps having a similarly equipped accomplice do the same thing some distance behind....The terrorists could now dismount and shoot with impunity at the people in all of the stranded, boxed-in cars....In such a scenario, as long as you weren’t one of the closest cars to the terrorists, you might have time to access your stored long gun, make it ready, and then engage the terrorists with equivalent firepower and, more importantly, effective range."
https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/the-truck-gun-and-active-shooter-scenarios-tactical-fantasy-vs-legitimate-applications/
Scenario #2: "Just as Willeford reached the front yard of Fred and Kathleen Curnow, whose house faces the church entrance, a man wearing black body armor and a helmet with a visor emerged from the church. Willeford scrambled behind the front tire of Fred’s Dodge Ram. The gunman raised his pistol and fired three times. One bullet hit the truck. One hit the Dodge Challenger parked behind him. One hit the house. Willeford propped his AR-15 on the pickup’s hood and peered through the sight. He could see a holographic red dot on the man’s chest. He fired twice. He wasn’t sure he’d hit him, though he was later told that the man had contusions on his chest and abdomen consistent with getting shot while wearing body armor. Regardless, the gunman stopped shooting and ran for a white Ford Explorer that was idling outside the chapel, roughly twenty yards from where Willeford had positioned himself."
https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/stephen-willeford-sutherland-springs-mass-murder/